NationStates Jolt Archive

Not Free Willy! :D

Does free will exist, and if so in what form does it exist?

If man is essentially an organic bio-chemical machine, what is free will? Could our decission making process be simply a chemical reaction that we have absolutely no control over what-so-ever (predestiney) or does free will exist in a more subtle form?

For example say you got into a 'Ground Hog Day' style situation where you kept reliving the same day. There would obviously be differences between how each day turned out (since you'd do different things upon each repitition of the day). However if you were to wake up without any knowledge of having allready experienced the day would you do anything different in the day?
If yes, then our decision making process would have to be random - or at least involving randoms - for each repitition to be different (since everything would be exactly the same as the previous day).
If no, then our decision making process is determanistic - it can be modeled and predicted.
If determanistic then would free will actually exist, since you'll be certain to do specific actions in specific situations? This could be yes, or no. Yes free will exists since you actively choose to do an action (even if it transpires that you'll always have done that action). Or no, there is no free will what-so-ever, and we don't really ever make any descisions at all.

What do you think is the case? I beleive that free-will is determanisitc, but we still retain the ability of choice.

Groundhog Life :eek:

Does it matter? :D

Don't know, don't believe it is possible to know at the moment, and don't particularly care. If we don't have free will, we have a quite convincing simulation of it, and it wouldn't make much difference to me whether or not it was real.

Does it matter? :D

It matters quite a bit because if there is no free will, there is no ethics or morality. We can't hold anybody responsible if there was no way that they could have done anything differently. And yes, there is free will.

It matters quite a bit because if there is no free will, there is no ethics or morality. We can't hold anybody responsible if there was no way that they could have done anything differently. And yes, there is free will.

No there isn´t. ;) And Ethics & Morality are just nice ways of telling people not to kill each other.

I believe in the existance of free will.

I don't know. It's one of those things- you want free will to exist (at least, I do) but, increasingly, I'm beginning to think that it doesn't. I mean, think how much you are influenced by other people. Can free will include other people pressuring you?

I don't know. It's one of those things- you want free will to exist (at least, I do) but, increasingly, I'm beginning to think that it doesn't. I mean, think how much you are influenced by other people. Can free will include other people pressuring you?
Yes. You still make a choice to succumb to the pressure.

I don't believe it's deterministic, as there are too many factors involved.
If you put a human in the same situation again and again without him/her realising that the situation is identic, you still might get different desicions every time. It's a bit like trying to make a long-time weather-forecast, if the famous butterfly flaps its wings, it might eventually change the climate.

I do believe in free will, however I also believe that humans on the whole try to be save rather than free; meaning they very often are quite happy to follow the will of a "leader" rather than thinking for themselves.
Also, free will has to stop as soon as it inhibits the freedom of others.

I don't believe it's deterministic, as there are too many factors involved.
If you put a human in the same situation again and again without him/her realising that the situation is identic, you still might get different desicions every time. It's a bit like trying to make a long-time weather-forecast, if the famous butterfly flaps its wings, it might eventually change the climate.
What's that have to do with determinism? One of the early examples in chaos theory was a simplistic, purely deterministic computer model of weather.

Chaos doesn't disprove determinism.

It matters quite a bit because if there is no free will, there is no ethics or morality. We can't hold anybody responsible...

Just a quick note: If there's no free will it's not our call whether we do that either... so it wouldn't really be something to worry about.

I have to echo Neo-Arachists on this. If we don't have it we have a very convicing approximation, such that it serves me perfectly well to behave as if I do. And if it's not actually my choice to take that position... well, what's the point of speculating on it since any conclusions I reached in such a scenario would also not be up to me?

The only time I ever play around with free will hypotheticals is when someone insists there's a supernatural entity running around that infallibly knows the course of future events... and then it's only to point out that in that case they have to account for the impossibility of the simultaneous existence of free will in such a scenario.

It matters quite a bit because if there is no free will, there is no ethics or morality. We can't hold anybody responsible if there was no way that they could have done anything differently. And yes, there is free will.

Why is ethics and morality dependent on free will? Morality is dependent upon people having happiness and a lack of happiness, not on free will. We don't hold people responsible because they somehow "deserve" to be punished, we hold them responsible in order to prevent any more deviations from morality.

What's that have to do with determinism? One of the early examples in chaos theory was a simplistic, purely deterministic computer model of weather.

Chaos doesn't disprove determinism.

I think he meant that its impossible to recreate the same situation twice due to the extremely large number of factors involved so whether there is free will or not cannot be determined.

I look at it like this, God is a General, directing the big picture, but just as in real life, he doesn’t get involved in the day to day affairs of one soldier.

I have free will, or do I? Maybe i was predetermined to claim that I have free will, when really I don't... hmm who knows who cares... we are all going to die.. so what does it matter the choices we make in life?

If free will doesn't exist, then the entire concept of law and ethics is rather pointless. Why hold someone responsible for murder if they didn't really have a choice?

Free Will does exist! I saw him streaking through the park the other day.

I look at it like this, God is a General, directing the big picture, but just as in real life, he doesn’t get involved in the day to day affairs of one soldier.

The problem is that no matter how aloof, every general issues orders. They may be filtered through a line of officers, but they are issued.

Who serves as God's officers on Earth? The Pope? Pat Robertson? Frankly I don't trust either of them or anyone like them to interpret a Rorschach Test, let alone the word of God.

If free will doesn't exist, then the entire concept of law and ethics is rather pointless. Why hold someone responsible for murder if they didn't really have a choice?

Because those who do hold such people responsible have no choice but to do so. Like all those cops in Detroit who stole and murdered all those pet dogs and said "I'm just doing my job." If we take them at their word, they weren't happy about what they were doing, but they didn't think they had a choice.

I have free will? I think I'll fly like a bird! (Flaps arms) WHEEEEEEEEE!!!

Wait a minute, this isn't working at all! I mustn't have any free will! I think I'll slap my head. OW! Well that worked. I must have some sort of limited free will. Or, I only think that I have a limited form of free will. Hmmm... I think I'll apply the table test to this. Is there a table here, or do I only think there is a table? (Attempts to walk through table.) OWW! Reguardless of whether or not there is a table there, the quality of my life is improved when I assume that it exists. In a similar way, I find the quality of my life improves when I assume the existance of some sort of limited free will. I'm perfectly willing to admit it all could be a delusion, but it's a delusion that I find useful.

I will liken free will to another common delusion. I think that these coloured pieces of paper I have possess a special property called money, and so won't throw them out with the rest of the trash. Some people might say that I'm crazy, that they're only pieces of paper and that the concept of money doesn't really exist. However, I find that the concept of money makes my life easier, so I assume for practical purposes that it's real. However, I don't feel the need to resort to believing in the existance of the Money Fairy.

If you believe in the theory of relativity then no one has free will. Because space-time is already predetermined, the future and past exists simoltaniously in the four dimensional Universe that we live in. But according to quantum mechanics all "tiny" particles have a huge of posibilities of actions to do, it is only when it is viewed by an "intelligent" it "chooses" to perform an action. So it is possible that our brains work like a quantum computer, having free will in a pre-determined space-time scoulping reality as we live. Or existence is composed of an unlimited amount of data and you are actually living in one instant with all your memories composed in an convinient order, and why are all the atoms so perfectly ordered in this instant? Because if they werent. then you could`t think about how perfect it is. right now!!!
BBC anyone? :D

Argh. Making me think too much. I'm willing myself to sleep now.

This is a very interesting theroy. Lets throw this can of worms into it. Just for theroy.
Lets say the Big Bang Theroy is correct & that the universe has expanded & contracted an infinite number of times. Is it then possible that we have lived the same set of circumstances an infinite number of times. If the universe has a set ammount of combinations is it not possible for the same sequence to exist multiple times. Therfore all of human existance has lived the groundhog day experience.

Now how does the concept of free will alter this?
I believe in this senerio there is only a finite number of choices you can experience so there for our will is limited by the number of possible choices that exist thus in the end free will does not exist but a vast number of choices do. So vast that it would give the appearance of free will without the condition being there.

I believe in the existance of free will.

But what are the reasons? What is 'free-will' to you? In what sense does it exist? Do animals have 'free-will'? If not, in what sense does they NOT have free-will.

Without reason to support a 'beileve', it'll be no better than other 'faith' based believes. And without evidence, it is only rational to take the simplest explaination that there is no free-will until evidence exists, and with some skepticism (atheist approach)..or suspend your believe about it (skepticism/agnostic).

If free will doesn't exist, then the entire concept of law and ethics is rather pointless. Why hold someone responsible for murder if they didn't really have a choice?

But that is not an argument for free-will. A prove should never be based on which is the more favorable position to take, since such a prove would likely have nothing to do with the 'actual'.

But what are the reasons? What is 'free-will' to you? In what sense does it exist? Do animals have 'free-will'? If not, in what sense does they NOT have free-will.

Without reason to support a 'beileve', it'll be no better than other 'faith' based believes. And without evidence, it is only rational to take the simplest explaination that there is no free-will until evidence exists, and with some skepticism (atheist approach)..or suspend your believe about it (skepticism/agnostic).
Well, it's very simple. I believe that we all have free will, children, animals, whatever. I can't think of any situation when we DON'T have some choice in our own fate. I honestly believe that if you don't believe in free-will, it is because you don't wish to be held responsible for your own actions.

Well, it's very simple. I believe that we all have free will, children, animals, whatever. I can't think of any situation when we DON'T have some choice in our own fate. I honestly believe that if you don't believe in free-will, it is because you don't wish to be held responsible for your own actions.

My not believing/uncertainty in regards free-will is not because I'm trying to escape responsibility for my own actions. But the thing is, there might also a possibility that 'free-will' is nothing by an illusion. Like the idea of 'self', and other concepts that the mind assumes to be absolute truths, to aid in our 'function' in this world. The truth is...I simply don't know..for now...

I don't believe it's deterministic, as there are too many factors involved.
If you put a human in the same situation again and again without him/her realising that the situation is identic, you still might get different desicions every time. It's a bit like trying to make a long-time weather-forecast, if the famous butterfly flaps its wings, it might eventually change the climate.


Things with lots of factors can still be determanistic. If you could create a model that factored in every single particle within the universe you'd get an acurate weather forecast (since even the wing-flapping butterfly would have been taken into account).
Assume for a minute we have such a model, and that it is infalible (ie all our physics is correct and there is nothing left to discover), and the model exists outside the scope of the universe it is modeling (to prevent infinative recursions where the model would have to model itself modeling itself and so on). Would this model be able to predict what a person was going to think? Would it be able to predict what a person was going to do?
If it can be predicted then ultimately free will is a bit of an illusion, since everything you'll ever do is merely a reaction set up by previous events - you have no more say in what way you react than a furby :D , you are merely programed by experience and your enviroment.
If however the model can't predict human behaviour then our actions are random*, meaning also that free will is a bit of an illusion since all we do is randomly peform an action out of a set of possible actions.

Long story short, there's no sense in feeling bad about making a tit of yourself in front of a girl as either: you were always going to make a tit of yourself, or you had no choice in the matter :D

* this is of course assuming that our decision making process is contained within the universe bieng modeled - if it isn't then it might not be random.

Things with lots of factors can still be determanistic. If you could create a model that factored in every single particle within the universe you'd get an acurate weather forecast (since even the wing-flapping butterfly would have been taken into account).
Assume for a minute we have such a model, and that it is infalible (ie all our physics is correct and there is nothing left to discover), and the model exists outside the scope of the universe it is modeling (to prevent infinative recursions where the model would have to model itself modeling itself and so on). Would this model be able to predict what a person was going to think? Would it be able to predict what a person was going to do?
If it can be predicted then ultimately free will is a bit of an illusion, since everything you'll ever do is merely a reaction set up by previous events - you have no more say in what way you react than a furby :D , you are merely programed by experience and your enviroment.
If however the model can't predict human behaviour then our actions are random*, meaning also that free will is a bit of an illusion since all we do is randomly peform an action out of a set of possible actions.

Long story short, there's no sense in feeling bad about making a tit of yourself in front of a girl as either: you were always going to make a tit of yourself, or you had no choice in the matter :D

* this is of course assuming that our decision making process is contained within the universe bieng modeled - if it isn't then it might not be random.

The whole idea of a computer that can calculate every interaction in our universe (whether it exists inside it or not) is literally impossible for at least 3 reasons so we'll never know the answer to that so I think its best if we just ignore the question.

Assume for a minute we have such a model, and that it is infalible (ie all our physics is correct and there is nothing left to discover), and the model exists outside the scope of the universe it is modeling (to prevent infinative recursions where the model would have to model itself modeling itself and so on). Would this model be able to predict what a person was going to think? Would it be able to predict what a person was going to do?If I understand the theory correctly, which I quite possibly don't, it's impossible to predict quantum behaviour. If that's correct, the model would have to guess and would therefore quickly diverge from reality.

The whole idea of a computer that can calculate every interaction in our universe (whether it exists inside it or not) is literally impossible for at least 3 reasons so we'll never know the answer to that so I think its best if we just ignore the question.

And those reasons are?

And those reasons are?

quantum mechanics, as posted above.
3 body problem
impossibility of determining the exact location and speed of a single particle (Heisenberg uncertianty principle).

I have obviously come to this dabate rather kate but I thought I wood give my vews anyway.

As i see it we all have free wiill it is just effected by are environment, by external stimuli. For Instance a man threated with death is more likely to do as he is told. He still makes the choice to do as he is told of his 'own free will' but this choice is also liked to weather he lives or not therefor the presence of the gun has changed hhis choice made of his 'own free will'.

Apologies if this has already been said.

quantum mechanics, as posted above.
3 body problem
impossibility of determining the exact location and speed of a single particle (Heisenberg uncertianty principle).

Oh well...
*sulks* :D

That's besides the point anyway since this is a hypothetical model anyway used to illustrate a point

I believe we all have free will to some extent, however, a large amount of how we think and act are based on our surroundings and other factors. Someone who grew up in a violent household has the choice to be violent with their own children, or to have learned from that experience to be more compassionate towards others. I also think intelligence has a lot to do with it, as well as instinct. For example: a human would probably make smarter, more thought out decisions than a dog would, or even a mentally challenged person. A dog probably acts more on instinct as well as very "simple" decisions such as: I like this person because they pet me and it feels good. I therefor choose to go to this person in a room full of strangers, because I have a better probability of pleasure. Another example of "outside" factors is this: I take medicine for depression and anxiety. These medications change the way my brain works and how I think. I could stay in bed all day or I could hurt myself, but I don't, because the chemicals one releases in something like cutting, burning, or even smoking a cigarette or pot I already have from my medication. I am very possibly addicted to these chemicals, but instead of recieving them in a negative or self-injurous way, I recieve them in a way less dangerous to my over-all well being. That doesn't mean I couldn't resort to these negative behaviors (sometimes I do relapse for short periods of time, even on medication), I'm just less likely to.