NationStates Jolt Archive

You know. The Spartan timarchy, the greatest warriors ever to grace the Earth and the best reason to allow gays in the military since the Spartans. Oh wait. But anyway. These guys rule. They rule so much in fact, that I made a thread about them. But not only that, I have one or two basic questions... Did Sparta ever fall? I can't remember the Spartan timarchy being absorbed into anywhere... and I can't think of a siege being successful. Every Spartan male, after all, was in the army, and the women were given just as rigourous training (I defy anyone to say that they could stand against a Spartan woman without firearms or military/martial arts training) so how would they fall without being exterminated? (the Romans as I'm aware exterminated Corinth and Carthage, damn them, but not Sparta, and no other nation was so hot on the exterminating.)

Anyway, to bring this brief first post to a close, I'll give you an anecdote of the battle of Thermopylae. Or just after it, to be certain. The battle of Thermopylae took place with 300 Spartan warriors and 100,000 Persians, including the "immortals", the Persian Kings best warriors. It took several days for the Persians to finally crush the Spartans, and, unusually for an enemy force, they did not retreat. the 300 Spartans fought to the last man, taking thousands of the enemy with them. It is said that when they moved to combat the Persians they stood, moved, and clothed themselves in perfect unison, to provide a fearful united front to the advance. After the battle, however, (which the persians eventually won through betrayal. A local shown them a secret pass which allowed them to outflank the Spartan warriors), word got to the Greeks ot the nasty taste the persians had in their mouth from the Spartan schooling they recieved. So, quickly repainting all their armour in the Spartan colours, they marched to meet the Persians. The Persians, upon seeing 3000 Spartans instead of 300, ran. The end.

Anyone else have anything interesting about the Spartans, eh?

But not only that, I have one or two basic questions... Did Sparta ever fall? I can't remember the Spartan timarchy being absorbed into anywhere... and I can't think of a siege being successful. Every Spartan male, after all, was in the army, and the women were given just as rigourous training (I defy anyone to say that they could stand against a Spartan woman without firearms or military/martial arts training) so how would they fall without being exterminated? (the Romans as I'm aware exterminated Corinth and Carthage, damn them, but not Sparta, and no other nation was so hot on the exterminating.)

Once Sparta defeated Athens, their culture wore away due to the excess wealth that they recieved from the spoils of sacking Athens. They were very humble and kept the same culture up till the point they were filthy rich.

And yes, the Spartans were defeated in a seige on an island's mesa to the.. west coast of the greek penninsula by Athenians in the war against Sparta. I forget the name of the battle unfortunately now, but Spartan warriors were defeated by strategy instead of outright assult. They wanted to fight to the death like their fabled heroes in Thermopylae, but the Athens beat them by staying a good distance and assailing them with arrows which wittled down their numbers till they ACTUALLY surrendered. They were imprisoned and put on display on Athens which REALLY shook up the Spartans. To them hearing their warriors surrender. It was a morale blow that people REALLY can't grasp. It kind of shook their core beliefs.

The warriors REALLY didn't have much of an option though due to the excellent strategy of not giving them the fight they wanted and totally going Paton on their ass.

Ah, the Spartans...They kicked ass. Thermopylae!

"The Spartans do not ask how many, merely where they are"

And at least it kept them off the foreign women...

If the Spartans were around today, they'd be into Punk Rock. I guarantee it.

If the Spartans were around today, they'd be into Punk Rock. I guarantee it.

That or Thrash Metal :D

I can already imagine a great ancient greek warrior listening to Slayer before battle.

That or Thrash Metal :D

Can't it be both?

Can't it be both?

Yeah, I love both.

.............Maybe we should talk about the Spartans...

Yeah, I love both.

.............Maybe we should talk about the Spartans...

Far ahead of their time, that's for sure. I just don't see how they ultimately failed... I guess I should read more about them.

I just don't see how they ultimately failed...

They didn't change with the times. They stuck to frontal assaults in perfect formation while others were coming up with new technology that took less skill...So the Spartans were badass, but when a rain of arrows is showering on you, it doesn't matter how bad you are - YOUR SCREWED.

That or Thrash Metal :D

I can already imagine a great ancient greek warrior listening to Slayer before battle.


i think more or Power metal. I mean power metal just makes you wanna kick ass as a group. Iced Earth, Nightwish, Iron maidien (sorry to you fans of them, i cant spell.)

They didn't change with the times. They stuck to frontal assaults in perfect formation while others were coming up with new technology that took less skill...So the Spartans were badass, but when a rain of arrows is showering on you, it doesn't matter how bad you are - YOUR SCREWED.

Ah, so that's what did it. Yeah, not changing with the times will always strike you down.

Once Sparta defeated Athens, their culture wore away due to the excess wealth that they recieved from the spoils of sacking Athens. They were very humble and kept the same culture up till the point they were filthy rich.

And yes, the Spartans were defeated in a seige on an island's mesa to the.. west coast of the greek penninsula by Athenians in the war against Sparta. I forget the name of the battle unfortunately now, but Spartan warriors were defeated by strategy instead of outright assult. They wanted to fight to the death like their fabled heroes in Thermopylae, but the Athens beat them by staying a good distance and assailing them with arrows which wittled down their numbers till they ACTUALLY surrendered. They were imprisoned and put on display on Athens which REALLY shook up the Spartans. To them hearing their warriors surrender. It was a morale blow that people REALLY can't grasp. It kind of shook their core beliefs.

The warriors REALLY didn't have much of an option though due to the excellent strategy of not giving them the fight they wanted and totally going Paton on their ass.


Ah, I see. I suppose that is the weakness of the Spartans. Ideally suited for one thing... and one thing only. Couldn't adapt. I wonder what they made of the Romans, who bore many similarities to the Spartans (but had that key element of adaptability). The Romans were much more of a warrior culture than people give credit for. They were great engineers to be sure, and had some good political thinkers, but at the core, they revolved around the warrior. Even their politicians had a military career without question. It's like forcing every MP or Senator to be in the army. Their senators were.

They probably thought the Romans were wimps for settling for half measures :D

i think more or Power metal. I mean power metal just makes you wanna kick ass as a group. Iced Earth, Nightwish, Iron maidien (sorry to you fans of them, i cant spell.)

This is complete nonsense. The Spartans obviously preferred Queen.

Raising tough children:
Instead of softening their feet with shoe or sandal, his rule was to make them hardy through going barefoot. This habit, if practiced, would, as he believed, enable them to scale heights more easily and clamber down precipices with less danger. In fact, with his feet so trained the young Spartan would leap and spring and run faster unshod than another in the ordinary way. Instead of making them effeminate with a variety of clothes, his rule was to habituate them to a single garment the whole year through, thinking that so they would be better prepared to withstand the variations of heat and cold. Again, as regards food, according to his regulation, the eiren, or head of the flock, must see that his messmates gather to the club meal with such moderate food as to avoid bloating and yet not remain unacquainted with the pains of starvation. His belief was that by such training in boyhood they would be better able when occasion demanded to continue toiling on an empty stomach....On the other hand, to guard against a too great pinch of starvation, he did give them permission to steal this thing or that in the effort to alleviate their hunger.
Xenophon (c.428-c.354 BCE):

Then staying tough throughout their adulthood:
Further, the law enjoins upon all Spartans, during the whole period of the campaign, the constant practice of gymnastic exercises, whereby their pride in themselves is increased, and they appear freer and of a more liberal aspect than the rest of the world. The walk and the running grounds must not exceed in length the space covered by a morai, so that one may not find himself far from his own stand of arms. After the gymnastic exercises, the senior polemarchos gives the order by herald to be seated. This serves all the purposes of inspection. After this the order is given "To get breakfast," and for "The outpost to be relieved." After this, again, come pastimes and relaxations before the evening exercises, after which the herald=s cry is heard "To take the evening meal." When they have sung a hymn to the gods to whom the offerings of happy omen have been performed, the final order "Retire to rest at the place of arms," is given.
Xenophon (c.428-c.354 BCE):
The Spartan War Machine, c. 375 BCE


Losing one battle and control of other city-states in Greece did not eleminate the city state of Sparta itself...

What happened to the Spartans was essentially (I’m summarizing big time) that they fought eternally with their ‘second class’ citizens (Helots, agricultural slave workers with practically no rights whatsoever) whom out numbered the Spartans soldiers in their homeland but the Spartans oppressed them with the eternal Iron fist, that even a rumor of a leader among the Helots brought down the Spartans slaughtering the slaves in all manner of merciless genocide. The Spartans thought of the other Greeks as less than Spartans, and they thought of the Helot as less than a Greek.

Spartans were great warriors, but arrogant and obnoxious and trained only in the arts of War and zealot about being strict adherents of their religion). The fact that the Spartans were great warriors, unequalled on land, they won many battles with other Greeks and took many territories. However, after the wars ended. they made very bad diplomats and leaders, none of their governors had any experience ruling, and I don’t mean only by a little bit. They were about as bad as you can imagine. Once the other Greeks fell under their rule, they couldn’t believe the treatment and they wondered if it wouldn’t have been better to be dead than ruled by a Spartan… In the end, Spartans ruled their new territories so harshly that in invariably led to insurrections (always).

The Spartans eventually got to the point (after winning the Peloponnesian War with Athens among other things) that they owned too much territory and because of their bad peacetime leadership, they were spread too far out, trying to quell the constant uprising everywhere and stop all of the insurrections, that they didn’t have enough Spartan soldiers at home anymore and they lost to the Helots in their own homeland.

What happened to the Spartans was essentially (I’m summarizing big time) that they fought eternally with their ‘second class’ citizens (Helots, agricultural slave workers with practically no rights whatsoever) whom out numbered the Spartans soldiers in their homeland but the Spartans oppressed them with the eternal Iron fist, that even a rumor of a leader among the Helots brought down the Spartans slaughtering the slaves in all manner of merciless genocide. The Spartans thought of the other Greeks as less than Spartans, and they thought of the Helot as less than a Greek.



Speaking of that... wasn't Helot murder legal in Sparta? And wasn't bullying of the helots by Spartan boys part of the correct upbringing of a Spartan? They were praised for it, if I recall.

Speaking of that... wasn't Helot murder legal in Sparta? And wasn't bullying of the helots by Spartan boys part of the correct upbringing of a Spartan? They were praised for it, if I recall.
Yes on both accounts.

Ah, I see. I suppose that is the weakness of the Spartans. Ideally suited for one thing... and one thing only. Couldn't adapt. I wonder what they made of the Romans, who bore many similarities to the Spartans (but had that key element of adaptability). The Romans were much more of a warrior culture than people give credit for. They were great engineers to be sure, and had some good political thinkers, but at the core, they revolved around the warrior. Even their politicians had a military career without question. It's like forcing every MP or Senator to be in the army. Their senators were.

They probably thought the Romans were wimps for settling for half measures :D

The Romans had the greatest armies in the world. The Spartan Warefare like greek warfare relied on a phanalx formation, powerful from the front, not so from the back, The legionaries had formations for all types of battle form the basic sheild wall, to the testudu formation against arrows. I think (im not sure) that I read some where that a legionsary cohort or something could form a wedge in the enemy soliders battle line, splitting the troops.

Personally I think the roman Legions, had they better toold such as steel, were better fighters and more disciplined than any medieval army after them.

But yeah the spartans kicked anus

Actually what you might be thinking of are the Theban Elite of Elites - the Sacred Band. Three Hundred male lovers and warriors. Though of course it was accepted practice throughout Greece I think it was mainly the Thebans who formally created a specific unit.

Cheers,
His Grace, etc etc, the Supreme Lord Chancellor of Cathenia

The thing about Spartans wasn't that they were merely gay---they were pedophiles. It was common practice for a young boy to be placed under the tutelage of an older warrior, and since the Spartans felt a romantic relationship ensured better comradeship in battle...

This is complete nonsense. The Spartans obviously preferred Queen.

GROAN :rolleyes:

I thought it was Thebes that had the great Queer Brigade, aka The Yelllow Battalion? They kicked the Egyptians ass! (Excuse the pun)

I always figured Spartans would be into Gabber:

"Go on start the war/
Army of Hardcore"
cue drums: BOOM BOOM BOOOM BOOM @ 180 BPM

Nothing makes you Rage like Omar Santa, Rob Gee, Lenny Dee, etc. How can you resist the urge, what with tracks like "What The F*** Are You Looking At?" and "DRopping BOmbs" or "I'm a Killah"

And yes, the Spartans were defeated in a seige on an island's mesa to the.. west coast of the greek penninsula by Athenians in the war against Sparta. I forget the name of the battle unfortunately now, but Spartan warriors were defeated by strategy instead of outright assult. They wanted to fight to the death like their fabled heroes in Thermopylae, but the Athens beat them by staying a good distance and assailing them with arrows which wittled down their numbers till they ACTUALLY surrendered. They were imprisoned and put on display on Athens which REALLY shook up the Spartans. To them hearing their warriors surrender. It was a morale blow that people REALLY can't grasp. It kind of shook their core beliefs.

The island you mean is Sphacteria, but it didn't stop the Spartans kicking the Athenians' backsides and tearing down their walls with a little bit of Persian financial aid.
And it was the Theban Sacred band who famously kicked the Spartans' backsides in the battle of Leuctra in 371 which effectively ended their importance in the Greek world.

Anyway, to bring this brief first post to a close, I'll give you an anecdote of the battle of Thermopylae. Or just after it, to be certain. The battle of Thermopylae took place with 300 Spartan warriors and 100,000 Persians, including the "immortals", the Persian Kings best warriors. It took several days for the Persians to finally crush the Spartans, and, unusually for an enemy force, they did not retreat. the 300 Spartans fought to the last man, taking thousands of the enemy with them. It is said that when they moved to combat the Persians they stood, moved, and clothed themselves in perfect unison, to provide a fearful united front to the advance. After the battle, however, (which the persians eventually won through betrayal. A local shown them a secret pass which allowed them to outflank the Spartan warriors), word got to the Greeks ot the nasty taste the persians had in their mouth from the Spartan schooling they recieved. So, quickly repainting all their armour in the Spartan colours, they marched to meet the Persians. The Persians, upon seeing 3000 Spartans instead of 300, ran. The end.

Anyone else have anything interesting about the Spartans, eh?

Has anyone heard of the verse

''Go Tell The Spartans''.

It was begun by the Americans whom wanted to show that than epic defence by a small number of soldiers against immense odds was on a parr to the Battle of Thermopylae. Yeah right!!! The Spartans fought with honour had had a set of balls that George Bush couldn't even dream about. :D :D

The Romans had the greatest armies in the world. The Spartan Warefare like greek warfare relied on a phanalx formation, powerful from the front, not so from the back, The legionaries had formations for all types of battle form the basic sheild wall, to the testudu formation against arrows. I think (im not sure) that I read some where that a legionsary cohort or something could form a wedge in the enemy soliders battle line, splitting the troops.

Personally I think the roman Legions, had they better toold such as steel, were better fighters and more disciplined than any medieval army after them.

But yeah the spartans kicked anus

Hmmm... I've never heard of a wedge in anything other than a cavalry charge, to be honest, though the Romans did drive wedges through the enemy battle lines, which can even be seen in Cannae, the Romans greatest defeat. The basic battle plan as far as the Romans were concerned was to smash the enemy center, whereupon the maniples of the triplex acies (the Roman standard formation, which looks a bit like this:
HHH HHH HHH
--PPP PPP
TTT TTT TTT
(H for hastati, the Romans front line troops, P for Principes, the more experienced, richer, and well equipped troops, and T for Triarii, the last line with the best troops. Designed to wear the enemy down with lesser troops until the Triarii could smash the foe. Also optimised to best exploit a small break in the flank of the foe. Without all the troops deployed, they can file through and crush the foe. Possibly the wedge you refer to.)


Armandian, Paedophilia isn't limited to the Spartans. Read the Republic, if you haven't already. Socrates' character refers to a young boy he has as a lover, and others fondness for overly young boys. But as a playful jest, or to point out their weakness to pleasures, rather than to accuse them of being immoral somehow. The way you phrased it implied that you thought it was a purely Spartan habit.

I'm definitely sure the Spartans were encouraged by the heirarchy to develop homosexual relationships also, Downmarching void, but like others said, it was common practice. The Spartans are just the best known practitioners.

I guess it was just their culture. But the Thebans who did kick Spartan butt at Leuktra were the ones who really institutionalized it.

While it's a great story that the Spartans fought for democracy at the Hot Gates their society was fascistic. When the helots (slaves) got too many the warrior class would cull their numbers in pogroms that would foreshadow Kristallnacht or Auschwitz. Helped keep the slaves in line I guess.

Cathenia

The island you mean is Sphacteria, but it didn't stop the Spartans kicking the Athenians' backsides and tearing down their walls with a little bit of Persian financial aid.
And it was the Theban Sacred band who famously kicked the Spartans' backsides in the battle of Leuctra in 371 which effectively ended their importance in the Greek world.

Ah, thanks. And of course it didn't end the war. It was a battle of stranded Spartans. The war raged on regardless.

I guess I'm wrong and I'm going to find out in a second but I think that Romans could not beat Spartans because when Romans were big, there were no Sparta anymore. Sparta existed BC and Roma AD. (the glory days)

If memory serves, didn't when Spartans wed, the wife went to her honeymoon and first bedding dressed by her new husband's unit mates in a Spartian uniform so to get him to actually, um, perform?

Personally I think the roman Legions, had they better toold such as steel, were better fighters and more disciplined than any medieval army after them.

They didn't have steel as we know it. They had a hybrid of steel and iron due to their sword forging process.

See here (http://www.unc.edu/courses/rometech/public/content/special/James_Hurst/THE_ROMAN_SWORD_IN_THE_REP.htm) .

If anyone wants a good read about Spartans and Thermopylae, try the book Gates of Fire by Stephen Pressfield (sp?).

I love the quote...

When told about the legions of persian archers who's arrows were so numerous that they would block out the sun, one warrior replied "good, then we will have our fight in the shade".