NationStates Jolt Archive

Do you feel any loyalty to your country or do you love the idiots you share your god-forsaken nation with?

No.

No.
damn you

Patriotic. Although I frown at those people who mix up Nationalism with Patriotism, like neocons and Bill O'Reilly.

You forgot other.

Questioning the government is part of patriotism. If you don't do it, you're in dereliction of duty, so to speak.

Do you feel any loyalty to your country or do you love the idiots you share your god-forsaken nation with?

Not especially, although I think my country has done some good things (and some bad). Then again I still feel a bond with those I share the country with since we're all in the same boat, and I want to improve my country more than any other.

I believe that the entire world should unite under a single government... Me.

Soon, oh so very soon I shall overthrow the nations of the world and shall become Emperor of the Earth! All shall love me and despair... The mormons shall be no more! Perfect Power shall be mine!

MUHAHAHAHAHAHA!

You forgot other.
I made a conscious (sp?) decision to omit it.

I made a conscious (sp?) decision to omit it.
Why?

Where's the "everyone should serve me" option? I'm being oppressed by Islamo-fascists!! :mad: :headbang:

Why?
Just to annoy you. That's how big a bastard I am

Just to annoy you. That's how big a bastard I am
You'll get yours someday, someday soon.

Just to annoy you. That's how big a bastard I am

Fascist Neocon--the tru power comes from the ppl

www.democracynow.com

You also forgot the obligatory "Myrth" (not to be confused with "The Obligatory Myrth").

Although I am a UK citizen, my ethnic origins are from three other countries. Which country is my country?

Hell if I know...neither do I care. Internationalism pwnz j00.

Questioning the government is part of patriotism. If you don't do it, you're in dereliction of duty, so to speak.

good call

I want to be internationalist but I just can't help feeling at least slightly patriotic on occasion like when we win stuff at the Olympics.

I want to be internationalist but I just can't help feeling at least slightly patriotic on occasion like when we win stuff at the Olympics.

Winning Olympic medals is certainly more satisfying to me than when we are blowing up smaller countries.

I am very patriotic, but not nationalist.

Questioning the government is part of patriotism. If you don't do it, you're in dereliction of duty, so to speak.
True. If you feel that your country is going down the wrong path, or even if you just think things could be better, it's your obligation to do what you can to convince others. I''ll even go so far as to say that, should your country's government begin to oppress its people, it's part of your duty as a patriot to take up arms against it, if necessary.

Where the rub comes in is when you're a citizen of a democracy and most of the people agree with a course of governmental action with which you take exception. If you truly love your country, leaving isn't an option ( unless it's to save your life ). Persuasion is difficult when you're just one of "the little guys," and taking up arms will make you a revolutionary in the eyes of most of the citizens.

Well, crap, you guys are making me feel guiltily apathetic. But, apathetic nonetheless. And actually, not all that guilty.....

You also forgot the obligatory "Myrth" (not to be confused with "The Obligatory Myrth").

Although I am a UK citizen, my ethnic origins are from three other countries. Which country is my country?

Hell if I know...neither do I care. Internationalism pwnz j00.

Two questions:
1. What does Myrth mean?
2. Internationalism pwnz j00. What the fuck?

Patriotic- I love my country but would be willing to admit its flaws and question the government

I'm extremely far-right, but even I know that President Bush could be doing a lot better.

I try to be as little patriotic as I can, since I believe there are only international/global interests, no national, and only an international society gives humanity a chance to survive itself.

Though I sometimes can't help beign proud of fellow Norwegians who commit noble acts, or perform amazing feats in sports.

But I'm of the first to complain when our government's political acts are unfair/wrong, especially on the international level.

There is a difference between loving your homeland, and being patriotic. I would be more than happy to fight against the British armed forces, if I felt there was good reason, but that still wouldn't stop me from loving where I am from. That's why I am inherently suspicious of the "my country uber alles" type, cos they're not thinking about what is right. You know, "4 legs good, two legs bad" and all that.

Patriotism is a great stain on the human model. It shows how we are weak and feel we need something that we consider more significant than ourselves to cling to. We dedicate ourselves to little plots of land and claim that is the best plot of land in the world. It's just ridiculous. I think this quote puts it very well:

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind."
Albert Einstein

Questioning the government is part of patriotism. If you don't do it, you're in dereliction of duty, so to speak.
Very true.

Many people fall under the nationalistic area, but aren't going to admit it, especially since you worded it in a bad way (but then again, it is a damaging force in many situations).

Two questions:
1. What does Myrth mean?
2. Internationalism pwnz j00. What the fuck?

1) I'm not even going dignify that with a response.
2) 411 |_||2 8453 |2 8310|\|9 2 |_|5!!!11eleven!!!!

1. What does Myrth mean?

It means moth of course! Haven't you heard Inspector Closeau from the Pink Panther movies? It's how he pronounces moth! j/k

It means moth of course! Haven't you heard Inspector Closeau from the Pink Panther movies? It's how he pronounces moth! j/k

I've not seen the movies in years. I can barely remember Closeau, never mind the way he says "moth".

Every country (except america) has it's good points. France and Switzerland have the Alps, Italy has it's language, Germany has the fact that's Germany, England has the fact that we have ruled most of the globe, our Navy is just plain better than yours, and our countryside is better than yours too, Spain has it's beaches and forests...

Okay, make that that Europe is the best. ^_^

I just saw Team America, so I'm feeling kinda patriotic.

*Votes Sieg Heil*

Hrm... I'm patriotic. I like it when my country wins sporting events, and all the nice stuff. I would never fight for it, because that's just not who I am, and I would just be generally VERY bad in a warzone, what with me being in a blind panic and all. I question my governments policies on a lot of things... just because they're in charge doesn't mean I agree with them, nor do I support them if everyone else does. That doesn't make them right.

London for the Olympics! Except that even then I disagree with that. To fund the olympics, it is the intention of the gov't, to the best of my knowledge, to cut funding to a lot of other parks, sporting facilities, and hosts of other similar groups/clubs/teams.

I definitely disapprove of the gov'ts utter stinginess.

Two questions:
1. What does Myrth mean?

Apparently Myrth is some legendary mod, though I have yet to find out why.

Patriotism is a great stain on the human model. It shows how we are weak and feel we need something that we consider more significant than ourselves to cling to. We dedicate ourselves to little plots of land and claim that is the best plot of land in the world. It's just ridiculous. I think this quote puts it very well:

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind."
Albert Einstein
This may indeed be true, however ... take a look at the evolution of societies over the long span of human history. We went from clan ( family ) to tribe to city-state to nation, and now even to region ( witness the EU ), transferring our loyalties all along the way, yet without losing all of our loyalty to previous forms. If this trend continues, as I suspect it will, we will eventually discover a form of planetary government which will placate ( if not satisfy ) most nations/regions. My personal take on this is that it's in the process of happening already.

Hrm... I'm patriotic. I like it when my country wins sporting events, and all the nice stuff. I would never fight for it, because that's just not who I am, and I would just be generally VERY bad in a warzone, what with me being in a blind panic and all. I question my governments policies on a lot of things... just because they're in charge doesn't mean I agree with them, nor do I support them if everyone else does. That doesn't make them right.

London for the Olympics! Except that even then I disagree with that. To fund the olympics, it is the intention of the gov't, to the best of my knowledge, to cut funding to a lot of other parks, sporting facilities, and hosts of other similar groups/clubs/teams.

I definitely disapprove of the gov'ts utter stinginess.

On the flip side, the money brought in would exceed the costs, and I want London to get the bid just to rub it in the face of Paris, who are very confident in victory.

Remember, the last time Paris held the Games they made a movie about it. Where the underdog manages to win in the end. So there is still hope for us.

411 |_||2 8453 |2 8310|\|9 2 |_|5!!!11eleven!!!!

That's even worse!

On the flip side, the money brought in would exceed the costs, and I want London to get the bid just to rub it in the face of Paris, who are very confident in victory.

Remember, the last time Paris held the Games they made a movie about it. Where the underdog manages to win in the end. So there is still hope for us.

oh, I want London to get it also... I just don't want it to be at the expense of the little clubs around the country. Because when they fail, as they will, missing months to years of funding, the huge amount of money the gov't rakes in will sit in the treasury doing nothing. What's the point of that?

Personally I don't feel either way, every country has many people and to judge those by their leader, prime-minister, president, and to label them with a flag - in the end is just racism on an acceptable scale.

Every country (except america) has it's good points.

Bite my shiny metal ass. You're talking about the nation that invented chili cheese fries.

In any case, I would be more likely to fight for the U.S., but I am disinclined to join the military reegardless of who's in power and would fight against the U.S. if I thought it was turning into a dictatorship. And I don't think it has. Yet. That doesn't mean I trust Bush, because I damn sure don't.

I am the American most other contries fear. If it isnt red white and blue, or if istnt a friend to the US, my gunsites are on it! I do activly participate in my nations welfare as I am in Iraq right now.

As a Communist I am also an Internationalist and I support the solidarity of all oppressed people in the fight against capitalism and exploitation. I also believe that nationalism and patriotism is an invention of the ruling classes in order to divide and weaken the international working class.

i fit the title on the poll as 'traitor' but i dont think thta is a very good way of putting it

That's even worse!
\/\/|-|47 (4/\/7 |_|/\/|)3|2574/\/|) 1337?

\/\/|-|47 (4/\/7 |_|/\/|)3|2574/\/|) 1337?
Ahhh L337 is 3v1l

\/\/|-|47 (4/\/7 |_|/\/|)3|2574/\/|) 1337?

I'm soory, are you speaking in assembler code?

As a Communist I am also an Internationalist and I support the solidarity of all oppressed people in the fight against capitalism and exploitation. I also believe that nationalism and patriotism is an invention of the ruling classes in order to divide and weaken the international working class.

Brutal. Trotskyism rocks

I love my country so much, that I am willing to criticize it when it does something stupid.

I love my country so much, that I am willing to criticize it when it does something stupid.

How many wise decisions does government make anyway?

And communism has shown to be an effective, long term plan for world peace. Hell never mind world peace, just seeing communism bring any sort of stability to the country its used in would be nice.

Internationalism. We are all human. Pride, greed, patriotism. They all stop everyone from realizing that we are indeed all human. Reguardless of what one nation says about the other. Reguardless of the Holy Wars, and other pitiful reasons we use to hurt and kill one another.

I do sincerely believe and hope that in the future. That we as a species are finally united not by any other factor save for the fact that we are human and reach deserves respect. But Im an optimist and an idealist. So it could all be for nought. And since our governments cannot agree to leave each other alone the world will end in a burning holocaust of untold proportions as fusion bombs that burn hotter than the suns core vaporize the surface.

And communism has shown to be an effective, long term plan for world peace. Hell never mind world peace, just seeing communism bring any sort of stability to the country its used in would be nice.
well the initial generation is the difficult part, that and evil dictators screwing it up for everyone

How many wise decisions does government make anyway?

On average, one per financial year.

I hate my country!

I would chose patriotic... I mean it's natural to question your nation, but in tight times where will you turn for security? To rely on another nation could mean the raping of your people, and surrendering just does the same thing, but at a bit higher level. All governments have their flaws, but people must still support their country hoping for the better or trying to make a difference. :mp5:

well the initial generation is the difficult part, that and evil dictators screwing it up for everyone


The USSR was a couple generations and they were the worse one ever. I dont think Cuba will last after Fidel, N Korea stays because of China. China is the one possible exception to the gerenal ruling that Commie's suck. But The Chinese have historically been one massive lesson of individuals being second place to the state. If communism ever works it will be in China, and god help the rest of the world.

And communism has shown to be an effective, long term plan for world peace. Hell never mind world peace, just seeing communism bring any sort of stability to the country its used in would be nice.

Oh yeah, sorry, I forgot how much peace and prosperity capitalism is bringing

Oh yeah, sorry, I forgot how much peace and prosperity capitalism is bringing
haha

Internationalism. We are all human. Pride, greed, patriotism. They all stop everyone from realizing that we are indeed all human. Reguardless of what one nation says about the other. Reguardless of the Holy Wars, and other pitiful reasons we use to hurt and kill one another.

I do sincerely believe and hope that in the future. That we as a species are finally united not by any other factor save for the fact that we are human and reach deserves respect. But Im an optimist and an idealist. So it could all be for nought. And since our governments cannot agree to leave each other alone the world will end in a burning holocaust of untold proportions as fusion bombs that burn hotter than the suns core vaporize the surface.

well... first of all you might need to look at human nature. It is an unending cycle that mankind cannot get away from. We are a species that destroys itself slowly. People will always have the greed, and violence in their minds, it's how some people are. Also, in some sense, maybe Humans killing each other is another way nature keeps our populationm stable. It might be wrong, but about 6.3 billion people populate the Earth as we know it. With such a high population, anxiety and aggression increases. If mankind is ment to kill each other, then nothing can stop it. It is an endless circle.

The USSR was a couple generations and they were the worse one ever. I dont think Cuba will last after Fidel, N Korea stays because of China. China is the one possible exception to the gerenal ruling that Commie's suck. But The Chinese have historically been one massive lesson of individuals being second place to the state. If communism ever works it will be in China, and god help the rest of the world.

There has never been a communist country or in my opinion not one even seriously committed to establishing communism for very long. All the so-called "socialist" or "communist" states have degenerated into authoritrian bureaucratic regimes where the ruling party replaces the role of the capitalist exploiters. China and Vietnam are now reverting fully back to capitalism and Cuba, although not to the same extent, has allowed private investment in some areas of the economy.

The reason for the failure of socialism in these countries is the lack of genuine democracy and workers control over the means of production. In a communist society, as predicted by Karl Marx, the state would wither away and the people would have a direct say over all the matters affecting their lives. None of the "socialist" countries have ever made any attempt towards this and until they do so there will never be true socialism or communism.

As long as we have divisions of people there will be fighting and war. In order to bring peace we must first erase those divisions. Religion is one of those biggest factors in our species desire to destroy each other. That and politics.

Religion is not bad. Its the people in the religion that twist it around to give meaning to their senseless wars and viloence. What we need is a new religion that does not embrace the divine but what embraces mankind and how within each of us there is a potential for greatness. It does not matter where you are born, who your parents are and what they have done. It is up to the person.

And politics. I dont know exactly where I stand. I dont like the fact the capitalism stomps all over the little guy. Or that socialism takes away from the individual. Everyone should be equal. Everyone should do what they are best suited to for the benefit of everyone else. Not because of money or fame but because it is right.

When we can change our nature away from destruction and embrace each other then we will know peace. But I stand by decision that there will be no nuclear war because of M.A.D.

But I stand by decision that there will be no nuclear war because of M.A.D.

As long as no psychopath ever gains control of a country with nukes.

I'm definitely not a nationalist. I find nationalism disgusting. All it does it pull people apart...

Patriotic enough to have both served honorably in combat and to question everything my government does. Patriotic enough to vote and to stand up to be heard. Patriotic enough to care about my fellow countrymen and to rag on them when they are in the wrong, while at the same time willing to defend them to the death from the government.

Is that enough?

The only time I ever feel anything remotely close to patriotism is during the Olympics. I do like to see my fellow citizens succeed, but it's not enough to make me call myself patriotic at any time other than those couple weeks of good, sporting fun.

I voted apathetic, but I don't know if that really describes me, because I definitely have strong feelings about my country, but they're usually on the negative side. Not negative enough to fight in a war against it (well, I'm also a pacifist), but negative enough to become a citizen of another country, with no regrets.

By your definitions, I'd be patriotic, although I'm sure many on here would question my loyalty to America based on my opposition to the current leaders in power.

If I had the oppurtunity to betray my country, I would. If they offered me a bribe, it would only be the cherry on top of my yummy betrayal sundae.

Why would you betray your country, out of curiousity?

Why would you betray your country, out of curiousity?
Well, what reason do I have to be "loyal" to it? I was born American, I didn't choose to be. I don't like the government, the people, or anything really, except for the entertainment industry. And the food. Yummy. But I wouldn't even hesitate to "betray" America.

Well, what reason do I have to be "loyal" to it? I was born American, I didn't choose to be. I don't like the government, the people, or anything really, except for the entertainment industry. And the food. Yummy. But I wouldn't even hesitate to "betray" America.
Then you are, indeed, a fool.

Then you are, indeed, a fool.
And why is that? Still, no one has given me a reason to be "loyal" to my country.

I'm not a patriot, not a traitor either. I'm bit internationalist but, not enough to qualify as one. I'm pretty apathetic, but, there are some aspects of America I like (like the sheer availability of jobs and nessecities). I guess you could say I'm more apathetic than anything, but not enough for me to refuse participation in government. I just don't know. I see all these resources I can take advantage of (colleges, housing, food, commericial goods), yet I feel no need to give back; why must I be subserviant to the government when I can think for myself. I guess I am apathetic, but with some internationalist, MILD patriotic, and egoist strains. Ah, well. :p At least I just a little less stressed as a result. :cool:

I think as long as we have things like Sports events or even just competition based on arbitrary differences (ie: college vs. college, town against town, country against country) then the US versues THEM mentality will always be around. Don't get me wrong, I love sport, both watching and participating, but the very nature of any competition that pits two areas or two groups of people based on some kind of boundary rather than teams of friends, against eachother, is going to play into the hands of nationalism.. just look at how fervent people become during the World Cup.

I'm definitely not a nationalist. I find nationalism disgusting. All it does it pull people apart...
internationalist here too :)


edit:
Well, what reason do I have to be "loyal" to it? I was born American, I didn't choose to be. I don't like the government, the people, or anything really, except for the entertainment industry. And the food. Yummy. But I wouldn't even hesitate to "betray" America.
exactly, except i'm from the UK. i wasn't born here by choice, only by chance, so i have no real reason to be particularly proud or loyal to my country.

however i can be and am loyal to many of the principles on which my country works, stands for and believes in.

I'm definitely not a nationalist. I find nationalism disgusting. All it does it pull people apart...
Agreed.

Well, what reason do I have to be "loyal" to it? I was born American, I didn't choose to be. I don't like the government, the people, or anything really, except for the entertainment industry. And the food. Yummy. But I wouldn't even hesitate to "betray" America.
Yes you were graced by god to be born an American. Nothing in your life would be the same if you werent. All you like is the entertaiment? The best you see in a culture is your ability to vegitate and rot your brain? Tell me, have you lived in any other country?

Yes you were graced by god to be born an American. Nothing in your life would be the same if you werent. All you like is the entertaiment? The best you see in a culture is your ability to vegitate and rot your brain? Tell me, have you lived in any other country?
Yes, I do enjoy rotting my brain. It's a terrible burden that I would like to do without. This brain gets me in trouble. Many of the people around me expect me to not only be patriotic, but perhaps even nationalist. Because I have my own views, they shun me. Rotting my brain sounds like a welcome relief. No, I have not lived in another country before. I must live wherever my parents do. Apparently, that is the USA. I understand that other countries are less fortunate, but that DOESN'T give me any reason to be loyal to my own.

Zotona, if you don't like the USA -- move, NOW. We, frankly, don't want you here.

I'd search for my one essay on Communism, but I'm frankly too lazy. :D

Zotona, if you don't like the USA -- move, NOW. We, frankly, don't want you here.

I'd search for my one essay on Communism, but I'm frankly too lazy. :D
I can't move, I am a minor. That means I must do whatever my parental guardians ask of me.

I can't move, I am a minor. That means I must do whatever my parental guardians ask of me.

So lets get this straight. You are some punk ass kid who hasnt been around long enough to know squat, you have been living off of mom and dads money and getting an education in schools paid for by government taxes? Yes , you are wise and the rest of the nation is misguided. You are clearly a child messiah and we should change the world to fit your needs. Because if a snot nosed kid dosnt like America, its Americas fault

Yes you were graced by god to be born an American. Nothing in your life would be the same if you werent. All you like is the entertaiment? The best you see in a culture is your ability to vegitate and rot your brain? Tell me, have you lived in any other country?

Graced by God? Wha? You do realise that some countries are just as free as America, right? You know... Britain, germany, france, Japan, Spain.... they all exist too... right? To say that nothing in their life would be the same is an overstatement. Many of these countries have common points with America. So you really can't say that America is the best. It has plenty of equals... and as far as I'm concerned in terms of how it looks after its less fortunate, plenty of superiors. Just like it leads the way in a few things as well.

So lets get this straight. You are some punk ass kid who hasnt been around long enough to know squat, you have been living off of mom and dads money and getting an education in schools paid for by government taxes? Yes , you are wise and the rest of the nation is misguided. You are clearly a child messiah and we should change the world to fit your needs. Because if a snot nosed kid dosnt like America, its Americas fault
you can still be thankful for what you have and not have to blindly profess its greatness in a deluge of patriotism :rolleyes:

or, even worse, nationalism

So lets get this straight. You are some punk ass kid who hasnt been around long enough to know squat, you have been living off of mom and dads money and getting an education in schools paid for by government taxes? Yes , you are wise and the rest of the nation is misguided. You are clearly a child messiah and we should change the world to fit your needs. Because if a snot nosed kid dosnt like America, its Americas fault
I haven't seen Zotona state that or anything equivalent to it. All I have seen Zotona state is that she has no loyalty to the US, and would leave if it were possible.

Every country (except america) has it's good points. France and Switzerland have the Alps, Italy has it's language, Germany has the fact that's Germany, England has the fact that we have ruled most of the globe, our Navy is just plain better than yours, and our countryside is better than yours too, Spain has it's beaches and forests...

Okay, make that that Europe is the best. ^_^

Oh, come on! Bavarian countryside is soooo much better than the English countryside, dummes schwein! :)

http://www.todtenweis.de/images/bilder/oben/hp_7_gr.jpg

So lets get this straight. You are some punk ass kid who hasnt been around long enough to know squat, you have been living off of mom and dads money and getting an education in schools paid for by government taxes? Yes , you are wise and the rest of the nation is misguided. You are clearly a child messiah and we should change the world to fit your needs. Because if a snot nosed kid dosnt like America, its Americas fault
Okay, please do not attack me because of my age. I am often considered to be wise beyond my years and this is unfair discrimination on your part. Have you not heard the proverb that, "Out of the mouths of babes come all wise sayings"? I know plenty. Yes, I have been living off my mom and dad's money, but my independence is not far off from now. For your information, my education is NOT paid for by the government because I am homeschooled. I do feel that I am wise, and many people are misguided, and I admit that in many ways, I myself am lost. I never said it's America's fault I don't like America; it's no one's fault. I simply don't. Do you continue to have a problem with me?

I am very patriotic. I love this country, wouldn't want to live anywhere else. America is where I was born and it is where I will die. However, yes I can admit when it's wrong. I won't say it's perfect all the time but it's certainly a lot better than other places out there. I am nationalistic though. However, not in the sense of the US right or wrong. I am in the sense of New York being right or wrong. I know I am American and I know someone living in the deep south is American, someone living in New England is American, and someone in the Midwest is American but I know that aside from the flag and other superficial levels of grouping, we are nothing alike. New York is a sub-country within a country. Therefore, I would consider New York my highest level of nationalism within the United States and even outside of the United States to be honest.

This is a good poll, I like and I look forward to more answers...

Okay, please do not attack me because of my age. I am often considered to be wise beyond my years and this is unfair discrimination on your part. Have you not heard the proverb that, "Out of the mouths of babes come all wise sayings"? I know plenty. Yes, I have been living off my mom and dad's money, but my independence is not far off from now. For your information, my education is NOT paid for by the government because I am homeschooled. I do feel that I am wise, and many people are misguided, and I admit that in many ways, I myself am lost. I never said it's America's fault I don't like America; it's no one's fault. I simply don't. Do you continue to have a problem with me?

Don't let them get to you, kid :)
I've never lived in the States myself, only Canada, Germany and Ireland. The fact that you were born and raised in one country means just that, it doesn't HAVE to mean more. It wasn't your choice to be born in the United States, though arguably you could have done worse. And wanting to leave home I think is a normal thing... I never understood people who live in one and the same place all their lives, declaring it the best place on earth without being able to compare it to anywhere else. That's just convenient blindness, nothing more.

I don't have a problem with people liking their country, but I do have a problem with people trying to shove their opinion down other people's throats. And, sadly, I found many patriots doing just that.

Okay, please do not attack me because of my age. I am often considered to be wise beyond my years and this is unfair discrimination on your part. Have you not heard the proverb that, "Out of the mouths of babes come all wise sayings"? I know plenty. Yes, I have been living off my mom and dad's money, but my independence is not far off from now. For your information, my education is NOT paid for by the government because I am homeschooled. I do feel that I am wise, and many people are misguided, and I admit that in many ways, I myself am lost. I never said it's America's fault I don't like America; it's no one's fault. I simply don't. Do you continue to have a problem with me?
Yes. I will always have a problem with someone who wont defened their own home. I even respect the Terrorist bastards I am dealing with here in Iraq because at least they are willing to die for their beliefs

Okay, please do not attack me because of my age. I am often considered to be wise beyond my years and this is unfair discrimination on your part. Have you not heard the proverb that, "Out of the mouths of babes come all wise sayings"? I know plenty. Yes, I have been living off my mom and dad's money, but my independence is not far off from now. For your information, my education is NOT paid for by the government because I am homeschooled. I do feel that I am wise, and many people are misguided, and I admit that in many ways, I myself am lost. I never said it's America's fault I don't like America; it's no one's fault. I simply don't. Do you continue to have a problem with me?

America does have many problems like its butting in to other countries affairs, a terrible hospital system, large crime rate and filled with SUV's. But when you get right down to it, this is a country you'd be lucky to live in for it IS the richest country on earth.

Yes. I will always have a problem with someone who wont defened their own home. I even respect the Terrorist bastards I am dealing with here in Iraq because at least they are willing to die for their beliefs
I am willing to die for my beliefs, and your right to have your own beliefs, and any other stranger's right to their own beliefs.

Yes. I will always have a problem with someone who wont defened their own home. I even respect the Terrorist bastards I am dealing with here in Iraq because at least they are willing to die for their beliefs

So, if I don't regard a place as my home, I don't have to "defend" it, right?

America does have many problems like its butting in to other countries affairs, a terrible hospital system, large crime rate and filled with SUV's. But when you get right down to it, this is a country you'd be lucky to live in for it IS the richest country on earth.
Just because it is the "richest" country on the planet monetarily doesn't mean it's a good one.

I am willing to die for my beliefs, and your right to have your own beliefs, and any other stranger's right to their own beliefs.
SO are you joining the military when you get old enough like I did? Or will you just call that being a tool or part of the system?

America does have many problems like its butting in to other countries affairs, a terrible hospital system, large crime rate and filled with SUV's. But when you get right down to it, this is a country you'd be lucky to live in for it IS the richest country on earth.

Listen, I was born and raised in one of the very richest countries on this planet, and one that is trying to distribute it's wealth as fairly as possible, one of the most liberal and just countries. But I didn't like it. I left, and I now live in a country that is a lot poorer... and I am a lot happier here. Being rich doesn't mean being happy.

SO are you joining the military when you get old enough like I did? Or will you just call that being a tool or part of the system?
No. Of course not. I don't believe that war is a good solution to our problems, and I believe that the military is just a tool for the government's personal agenda.

Just because it is the "richest" country on the planet monetarily doesn't mean it's a good one.

Rich means more opportunities for its citizens, and really, I don't think any country is "good" for all governments make decisions that are for their best interests. Doing what's right comes second in policy for all countries.

Rich means more opportunities for its citizens, and really, I don't think any country is "good" for all governments make decisions that are for their best interests. Doing what's right comes second in policy for all countries.
Precisely. I have no loyalty to any country. Why wouldn't I "betray" my own on the spot?

No. Of course not. I don't believe that war is a good solution to our problems, and I believe that the military is just a tool for the government's personal agenda.
well thats alright. As long as you live in this country I will defend your right to bash it. Even if I am a tool for said country

well thats alright. As long as you live in this country I will defend your right to bash it. Even if I am a tool for said country
And I would defend your right to bash me, even if that made me a tool for some higher power or authority figure I dislike.

Meh blind patriotism = nationalism to me I am more of an internationalist at heart.

And when I was in the USA this year I can say it's definitely less free than many many countries. Geez when I stepped of the plane in New York I was asked so many questions and searched so much like I never was before! Talk about free, there were so many heavily armed troopers near the sites I saw it was just plain scary! I really prefer Europe, I can go to Bruxelles and scream at the top of my voice "THE EU SUCKS!" and quite frankly noone would give a damn they'd just go meh..big deal let him shout all he wants.

And some pickup trucks I saw were just scary with bumbper stickers with signs like "Save the USA shoot an arab" I was like this country stands for freedom and nonopression?? I've also been to Iraq namely as a field medic and I treated many USA troopers, and 10X that number in Iraqi civilians. Namely 8-12 year old kids, even old ladies. And while going to a hot zone to treat people in situ, I saw some US troopers that seriously frightened me one of em was on top of a humm-vee holding a big machine gun swerving it left and right while yelling "COME ON mothafucka'!!!Yeah you bitch ya you, come on bitch do something wrong so I can pop your towel wearing ass full'o'lead" really really bloodthirsty, and it was ironic that he shot himself in the grain 7 days later because he was threatening a 15 year old, and the proceeded to put his gun behind his pants, forgetting the safety and the discharge removed his left testicle and 1/3 of his penis.I'm not approving of this man's accident. But there is an old saying in my country "Harm comes to those who wish to harm others".
But while I was in the USA I met zounds of great people and they are worried too about many things least of all is another terrorist attack. I am affraid the USA has become something that is feared out of something respected and liked. And please don't start the French have hated us. That is not true, in fact the average frenchperson liked you guys quite a lot! Would they have really given you the statue of liberty if they disliked you so dang much? And trust me when 9/11 happened we were all in shock at the carnage and devastation wrought and you had our sympathy. But when you started going to so many wars, well it just turned scary, especially for guys like me we have to stay in a post warzone with all they hate and despair aimed at us after most of the troops leave. I am one of those who puts your boys back together after they get hurt, we're the ones who help the local population, so they see we're not all machine gun totting psyhotic gun happy killers. I am the one who listens to the cries of pain and try to sleep myself.

The screams haunt me even now that I am at home. All to many I see one of your ladz brought into the OR with no legs or worse(yes it is worse) no arms! And then they are shipped back home tucked away in a veterans hospital to be forgotten. It's bad PR to see a mauled soldier talking about the horrors of war. Trust me I've been there,I've seen things I doubt I'll ever be able to forget. And these arabs that some of you seem to despise too much. Who do you think brings wounded troopers to our MH? those arabs! They saved over 300 of your guys in just our unit! Goodness knows how many in others. One guy Mustafa Al Habin Al Muhaj has personaly brought in 9 guys at once he used his bmw and recruited 2 other drivers from his neighbourhood to bring these boys to safety. And trust me he has no love of americans, they killed both of his daughters in bombing runs. He loves his country, but he was affraid of you he thought and most others do in the same way that if you don't help you'll just kill more and more of them.

Pull out any explanation or justification this is what I saw I try not to judge, and yet I do, if this post offends you, my appologies.

Meh blind patriotism = nationalism to me I am more of an internationalist at heart.

And when I was in the USA this year I can say it's definitely less free than many many countries. Geez when I stepped of the plane in New York I was asked so many questions and searched so much like I never was before! Talk about free, there were so many heavily armed troopers near the sites I saw it was just plain scary! I really prefer Europe, I can go to Bruxelles and scream at the top of my voice "THE EU SUCKS!" and quite frankly noone would give a damn they'd just go meh..big deal let him shout all he wants.

And some pickup trucks I saw were just scary with bumbper stickers with signs like "Save the USA shoot an arab" I was like this country stands for freedom and nonopression?? I've also been to Iraq namely as a field medic and I treated many USA troopers, and 10X that number in Iraqi civilians. Namely 8-12 year old kids, even old ladies. And while going to a hot zone to treat people in situ, I saw some US troopers that seriously frightened me one of em was on top of a humm-vee holding a big machine gun swerving it left and right while yelling "COME ON mothafucka'!!!Yeah you bitch ya you, come on bitch do something wrong so I can pop your towel wearing ass full'o'lead" really really bloodthirsty, and it was ironic that he shot himself in the grain 7 days later because he was threatening a 15 year old, and the proceeded to put his gun behind his pants, forgetting the safety and the discharge removed his left testicle and 1/3 of his penis.I'm not approving of this man's accident. But there is an old saying in my country "Harm comes to those who wish to harm others".
But while I was in the USA I met zounds of great people and they are worried too about many things least of all is another terrorist attack. I am affraid the USA has become something that is feared out of something respected and liked. And please don't start the French have hated us. That is not true, in fact the average frenchperson liked you guys quite a lot! Would they have really given you the statue of liberty if they disliked you so dang much? And trust me when 9/11 happened we were all in shock at the carnage and devastation wrought and you had our sympathy. But when you started going to so many wars, well it just turned scary, especially for guys like me we have to stay in a post warzone with all they hate and despair aimed at us after most of the troops leave. I am one of those who puts your boys back together after they get hurt, we're the ones who help the local population, so they see we're not all machine gun totting psyhotic gun happy killers. I am the one who listens to the cries of pain and try to sleep myself.

The screams haunt me even now that I am at home. All to many I see one of your ladz brought into the OR with no legs or worse(yes it is worse) no arms! And then they are shipped back home tucked away in a veterans hospital to be forgotten. It's bad PR to see a mauled soldier talking about the horrors of war. Trust me I've been there,I've seen things I doubt I'll ever be able to forget. And these arabs that some of you seem to despise too much. Who do you think brings wounded troopers to our MH? those arabs! They saved over 300 of your guys in just our unit! Goodness knows how many in others. One guy Mustafa Al Habin Al Muhaj has personaly brought in 9 guys at once he used his bmw and recruited 2 other drivers from his neighbourhood to bring these boys to safety. And trust me he has no love of americans, they killed both of his daughters in bombing runs. He loves his country, but he was affraid of you he thought and most others do in the same way that if you don't help you'll just kill more and more of them.

Pull out any explanation or justification this is what I saw I try not to judge, and yet I do, if this post offends you, my appologies.

I dont agree with alot of what you say. however, you are doing your duty and serving a greater purpose then yourself. Whatever that porpose is, or your opinions, I respect you.

^What don't you agree upon? And trust me if (and goodness I hope NEVER) you are ever on one of our operating tables, you will find your oppinions to shift. It really takes extremes to change people huh? And I really hope noone gets killed in this dirty affair, but fat chance of that happening, on a side not I'm depressed, sad and angry.

Oh and I AM looking for a debate, not a whose right whose wrong flame fest. Just present your points peacefully.

As long as no one tries to suggest that being patriotic means supporting the war in Iraq and the obsession with terrorism. Really, I'm alot more afraid of being mugged on the street by some addict then of some terrorists. We really need to be patriotic by doing something about all the guns on our streets. Perhaps reducing the homicide rate would be a great service to our country?

As long as no one tries to suggest that being patriotic means supporting the war in Iraq and the obsession with terrorism. Really, I'm alot more afraid of being mugged on the street by some addict then of some phantom terrorists.


This was precisely what one of my new yorker friends said! And above that fear was rape I think.

As long as no one tries to suggest that being patriotic means supporting the war in Iraq and the obsession with terrorism. Really, I'm alot more afraid of being mugged on the street by some addict then of some terrorists. We really need to be patriotic by doing something about all the guns on our streets. Perhaps reducing the homicide rate would be a great service to our country?

Changing your own country for the better would be about the only purpose of patriotism I could ever figure out... but whenever internal changes are suggested in the US, they tend to be dimissed as "unpatriotic". At least that's how it comes across on our side of the Atlantic...

Changing your own country for the better would be about the only purpose of patriotism I could ever figure out... but whenever internal changes are suggested in the US, they tend to be dimissed as "unpatriotic". At least that's how it comes across on our side of the Atlantic...


What changes did you have in mind Cabra West? I am curious.

I'm American but I'm also Jewish and consider myself to be more Israeli than
American to the point of fighting against America if Israel ever went to war against the U.S. (god forbid) so I wasnt sure what to answer in the pole but in the end i chose apathetic but im still not sure anybody have any suggestions so with my other country i might answer the correct thing.

Meh blind patriotism = nationalism to me I am more of an internationalist at heart.

And when I was in the USA this year I can say it's definitely less free than many many countries. Geez when I stepped of the plane in New York I was asked so many questions and searched so much like I never was before! Talk about free, there were so many heavily armed troopers near the sites I saw it was just plain scary! I really prefer Europe, I can go to Bruxelles and scream at the top of my voice "THE EU SUCKS!" and quite frankly noone would give a damn they'd just go meh..big deal let him shout all he wants.

And some pickup trucks I saw were just scary with bumbper stickers with signs like "Save the USA shoot an arab" I was like this country stands for freedom and nonopression?? I've also been to Iraq namely as a field medic and I treated many USA troopers, and 10X that number in Iraqi civilians. Namely 8-12 year old kids, even old ladies. And while going to a hot zone to treat people in situ, I saw some US troopers that seriously frightened me one of em was on top of a humm-vee holding a big machine gun swerving it left and right while yelling "COME ON mothafucka'!!!Yeah you bitch ya you, come on bitch do something wrong so I can pop your towel wearing ass full'o'lead" really really bloodthirsty, and it was ironic that he shot himself in the grain 7 days later because he was threatening a 15 year old, and the proceeded to put his gun behind his pants, forgetting the safety and the discharge removed his left testicle and 1/3 of his penis.I'm not approving of this man's accident. But there is an old saying in my country "Harm comes to those who wish to harm others".
But while I was in the USA I met zounds of great people and they are worried too about many things least of all is another terrorist attack. I am affraid the USA has become something that is feared out of something respected and liked. And please don't start the French have hated us. That is not true, in fact the average frenchperson liked you guys quite a lot! Would they have really given you the statue of liberty if they disliked you so dang much? And trust me when 9/11 happened we were all in shock at the carnage and devastation wrought and you had our sympathy. But when you started going to so many wars, well it just turned scary, especially for guys like me we have to stay in a post warzone with all they hate and despair aimed at us after most of the troops leave. I am one of those who puts your boys back together after they get hurt, we're the ones who help the local population, so they see we're not all machine gun totting psyhotic gun happy killers. I am the one who listens to the cries of pain and try to sleep myself.

The screams haunt me even now that I am at home. All to many I see one of your ladz brought into the OR with no legs or worse(yes it is worse) no arms! And then they are shipped back home tucked away in a veterans hospital to be forgotten. It's bad PR to see a mauled soldier talking about the horrors of war. Trust me I've been there,I've seen things I doubt I'll ever be able to forget. And these arabs that some of you seem to despise too much. Who do you think brings wounded troopers to our MH? those arabs! They saved over 300 of your guys in just our unit! Goodness knows how many in others. One guy Mustafa Al Habin Al Muhaj has personaly brought in 9 guys at once he used his bmw and recruited 2 other drivers from his neighbourhood to bring these boys to safety. And trust me he has no love of americans, they killed both of his daughters in bombing runs. He loves his country, but he was affraid of you he thought and most others do in the same way that if you don't help you'll just kill more and more of them.

Pull out any explanation or justification this is what I saw I try not to judge, and yet I do, if this post offends you, my appologies.
wow. yeah.
thats what gets me - the apparent culture in the US of "live free or die", but with such a warped sense of freedom it almost becomes frightening. and the black-and-white morality and attitude of many people there - "you're either with us or against us" - that leads, or stems from, such amazing patriotism and near nationalism - and almost certainly mild xenophobia - also bugs me a lot

its true what you say about Brussels - go there and shout "the EU sucks!" and i'm pretty damn sure nobody would care: if you want to say it go ahead, its your right. and i've been to brussels recently
i get the impression that if you went to the white house and yelled "the USA sucks!" you'd not only get an earful, and potentially threats, from local pedestrians/onlookers, but maybe attract the attention of the police round there :eek:
thats not a good thing. thats not freedom

What changes did you have in mind Cabra West? I am curious.

Well, first of all revoking the "patriot act" and thus making the US part of the free world again... ;)

And after that, reducing the crime rate, providing good education and fair chances for ALL, starting a health care system, tackling pollution,... but then, I'm no citizen of the US, these are just suggestions from an outsider.

Changing your own country for the better would be about the only purpose of patriotism I could ever figure out... but whenever internal changes are suggested in the US, they tend to be dimissed as "unpatriotic". At least that's how it comes across on our side of the Atlantic...

Cleaning up America's streets of poverty, guns and drugs would be very patriotic in my opinion. Going after Arabs should be down the list since the above problems kill many more Americans then terrorists. Perhaps we need to rethink our priorities?

Well, first of all revoking the "patriot act" and thus making the US part of the free world again... ;)

And after that, reducing the crime rate, providing good education and fair chances for ALL, starting a health care system, tackling pollution,... but then, I'm no citizen of the US, these are just suggestions from an outsider.


Excelent calls all of them! Well I am neither from the US of A and I can't help but agree.

Cleaning up America's streets of poverty, guns and drugs would be very patriotic in my opinion. Going after Arabs should be down the list since the above problems kill many more Americans then terrorists. Perhaps we need to rethink our priorities? Yes a rethink on part of the populace who would exercise pressure on the government would be a great idea IMO.

Last week we got 5 really mauled american troopers one of them decided to start juggling grenades(3 or 4 i believe) and while he was doing this the pin fell out(unlikely) or was pulled out while he was juggling the saftey catch was also released one trooper saw the pin and the safety drop shouted to the others to look out but the juggling trooper got so scared he dropped ALL of the grenades and before they could get in shelter they were all cut in the blast, I see carnage but this was trully idiotic... :(

Cleaning up America's streets of poverty, guns and drugs would be very patriotic in my opinion. Going after Arabs should be down the list since the above problems kill many more Americans then terrorists. Perhaps we need to rethink our priorities?

I really don't understand patriotism, but...
Showing your love for your country by running around in a country on the other side of the world killing the people there ... doesn't make much sense to me.
A friend of mine who had been in the military in my home country once proudly told me that during that time he was protecting his country, including me, then a ten-year-old girl. At that time, I was sexually abused by my father... I don't know who he protected, but I know it wasn't me.

Well, I'm in the Navy, but I do recognize the flaws with my country. Flaws such as abortion, crime, and some poor international decisions.

Well, I'm in the Navy, but I do recognize the flaws with my country. Flaws such as abortion, crime, and some poor international decisions.
Agreed. I am not suggestion everything America does is golden, But I sure as hell will defend it long enough for the things I dont like to change. That again is what make America great. Most other countries have a hugh meltdown for their changes. Germany had had what 4 different goverments come along last century?

I really don't understand patriotism, but...
Showing your love for your country by running around in a country on the other side of the world killing the people there ... doesn't make much sense to me.
A friend of mine who had been in the military in my home country once proudly told me that during that time he was protecting his country, including me, then a ten-year-old girl. At that time, I was sexually abused by my father... I don't know who he protected, but I know it wasn't me.


I am really sorry to hear that my condolences for what happened to you.

And as for abortion being a mistake, it's not IMO(please no religious explosions read this through first), if a woman gets raped and gets pregnant must she really have that baby? Immagine the hate/horror/fear cocktail of emotions that she must be going through while carrying the child of the monster who has violated her imagine that she has to stare into the face of her child every day and to be reminded of that dreadfull event??? And as for teenagers getting abortion I say yes, why because if she trully wants to finish school,she won't be able with a baby. Also a woman who can't support the child or rear it properly should be able to choose what she must do. And some women simply can't bear children safely(diabetics being one) should really terminate pregnancy asap. And as for all women? Their body, their choice. But I am against abortion after 4 months, let's face it if a woman after 4 months doesn't realise she's pregant then crimeney ain't she Paris Hilton! After that period I'd highly recomend for her to have the baby and give it up for adoption, but I ask you this how many of these unwanted tykes really gets a family quickly? :( How many are forced to stay in loveless institutuions called orphanages? :( Please think about these things, it's all to easy for us guys to say abortion=illegal.

Agreed. I am not suggestion everything America does is golden, But I sure as hell will defend it long enough for the things I dont like to change. That again is what make America great. Most other countries have a hugh meltdown for their changes. Germany had had what 4 different goverments come along last century?

Yes. And they learned from all of them and stuck with the best. ;)

Patriotic, from what you described it as. Anyone can see flaws in there government, unless its a government when your kind of threatend into thinking that what the government says is always the best option. But I am Australian, I love my country, but like any person with any sense i can admit to the faults in the government.

I am apathetic, I suppose.

I'm not a flag-waving patriot, nor am I totally anti-American.
I just don't care either way.

Well I figure its like this. I am against alot of things in America. I wont name them all because who cares right? But I do know I will fight for it till my last, and I will never back another country in anything over my own. Its the same with my family. I might not care for something my brother does, and I will try to change it, but god help you if you try to lay a hand on him.

Well I figure its like this. I am against alot of things in America. I wont name them all because who cares right? But I do know I will fight for it till my last, and I will never back another country in anything over my own. Its the same with my family. I might not care for something my brother does, and I will try to change it, but god help you if you try to lay a hand on him.

That's one of the many things about patriotism that I'll never understand, I guess. The lack of objectivity.
I would defend my brother as well if he got attacked, absolutely. But I would also defend any stranger if I saw that he was attacked unfairly in any way....

Well I figure its like this. I am against alot of things in America. I wont name them all because who cares right? But I do know I will fight for it till my last, and I will never back another country in anything over my own. Its the same with my family. I might not care for something my brother does, and I will try to change it, but god help you if you try to lay a hand on him.


Even if you brother was a rapist or a murderer or a pedophile? Or worse all of the above combined?? A true patriot tries to change his country for the better and always chalenges the injustices the country makes, But If you think your country makes no mistakes, then my friend you trully need to take a better look. I don't know who said this but they said it well: " There is none more blind, than those refusing to see!"

my country has made great progress in the past,
being the first to give women the vote,
one of the first to introduce socialism after russia,
and the second country to go to war against germany in ww2

but it has also been a slave to the capitalists in vietnam, a part of SEATO.

and every year we are becoming more capitalist; it started out that the govt reduced education funding to a mere subsidy of university fees, then the subsidy was abolished, and recently, taxes have gone down maknig the thresholds $2000 higher for tax rates.

if national wins this election, and i am alone in revolt against the capitalists, i will lose all love for this country

I love China. I despise the government. Sort of ironic as Beijing insists that State=Party and Party=State. No. I shall forever loathe the Communists.

Do you feel any loyalty to your country or do you love the idiots you share your god-forsaken nation with?

Well, I hate the country, but I'd still work for the highest bidder. If N. Korea decides to buy me out, I wouldn't really object to calling Mr. Il the 'dear leader' :p

Why?

Well...I have to eat, don't I?

I'm patriotic, i love my country but even i can admit it's not perfect (far from it) i get really excited at the Olympics etc

i love people from other countries too... i just don't want to live there

Patriotic?
Hardly, in sweden it is more about electing which disease will infect the country for the next four years.

I voted apathetic ,just because when it comes down to it, it is about my own survival, my prosperity. Selfish as it is,

But nonetheless, I do like certain aspects of this country.
The fact that people do enjoy the freedom they have here, aswell as want to put a law which they do not agree with, they speak out. For example, the recent form of "sexual censorship"

"Even if you brother was a rapist or a murderer or a pedophile? Or worse all of the above combined??"

If this was the case , I'd kill him myself.

Patriotic?

The fact that people do enjoy the freedom they have here, aswell as want to put a law which they do not agree with, they speak out. For example, the recent form of "sexual censorship"

"Even if you brother was a rapist or a murderer or a pedophile? Or worse all of the above combined??"

If this was the case , I'd kill him myself.

Dude... I would do the same thing...
:mp5:

Can i be patriotic of both britain and america?
I am half and half and live in britain?

I feel I am patriotic enough to have enlisted in the military

I am not patriotic at all.

I love my family and friends.
I could not care less about some artificial division of the world that is called a nation.
I will fight to defend myself, my family, people I care about. I will not fight for some artificial chimera created in the minds of the people by the politicians.

Somewhere between apathetic and traitor. I feel nothing for it, though I wouldn't take up arms against it for another nation state.

I love my country. I hate everyone in it. If anyone insults my Prime Minister I've got something to say about it.

I love my country. I hate everyone in it. If anyone insults my Prime Minister I've got something to say about it.

Vote Greens!!!

I'm not particularly attached to Australia, I'm an apathetic.

Vote Greens!!!

I'm not particularly attached to Australia, I'm an apathetic.

Vote Liberal and like it!

Vote Liberal and like it!

You know the world is messed up when a Commie Catholic shouts at you to vote Liberal! :eek:

What is the point of an artifical line?

I understand loyalty to family and friends. Towns. nothing more than that. I happen to have been born in Canada. Thing is, I would have no more difficulty moving to Europe or to the other side of Canada. Maybe a bit more, but that is more time-zone related. :D Thing is, patriotism, as far as I can tell, is selfish. Why?
why are you patriotic? Not to make a strawman, but:
This nation is so great, it gives you the liberty to bash it.
Thing is, so does England, USA/Canada(I was gonna put USA, but many of you are USA'ers), France, Spain, Portugal, Japan, Austrailia, New Zealand, Germany, Sweden, Norway (We come from the land of the ice and snow, with the midnite sun and where the hotsprings glow) Denmark Finland, Estonia, Poland, and some more. Can't think of a list. Sue me.

And before you say that "You could have been born in some tin-pot dictatorship, so be glad you live in *insert above nation*." If I was born in that nation, I would have had a fundamentally different up-bringing, so that I wouldn't be the same person, thus, if I was born in any other enviroment, I wouldn't be me. But I am not gonna get into some Nature/Nurture debate here, and continue on.