NationStates Jolt Archive

Let’s conduct a little thought-experiment. If you were born in a pure christian society – think of Europe/America a few centuries ago (not too many for America) – there would be almost no doubt about the fact that you would become a Christian by hearth too. You would have become a muslim in a pure muslim society, a hindu in a pure hindu society, a jew in a pure jewish society, a worshipper of the Greek gods in ancient Greece, … a worshipper of the ‘invisible pink unicorn’ in a pure ‘invisible pink unicorn’ society, an atheist in a pure atheist society (a pure atheist society wouldn’t even understand the concept of a god – on a side note). In the right society, you could believe in a whole range of gods, ghosts, demons, mythological creatures etc.

I think we can all see the impact of society on ones faith and religion, or its absence. I find it however very odd that people will still claim that their religion is the right religion, that they KNOW their god exists because ‘THEIR’ faith tells them he does. A more extreme example: someone claiming that everything in the bible/thora/koran is true. How can you claim that you know for sure that something exists or must be true purely on faith, without hard evidence – because of it’s supernatural nature -, while at the same time realising that if you were raised somewhere else, you would have an entire different faith and you would say something else is the truth.

I myself find this way of ‘looking at something from different religions’ to be an argument pro ‘pure’ atheism, but that is my interpretation. I would like to see yours too tho.

How can you claim that you know for sure that something exists or must be true purely on faith, without hard evidence – because of it’s supernatural nature -, while at the same time realising that if you were raised somewhere else, you would have an entire different faith and you would say something else is the truth.

Oh joy, another religious thread. Not that I don't find the whole topic of religion incredibly interesting, but these things always go around in circles on these forums - it basically amounts to one group of people saying they're right and their God exists, and another group saying that the first group are wrong because they can't prove it. It'll end up being people either arguing with or reitterating your post. Quit while you're ahead - i.e. while there have been no proper responses.

I guess I can say I am part of Carlinism. George Carlin believes and I agree that there really is no god but there is something that does bind us all together. As he called it the big Electron. But for real I really don't believe in a god but I do believe there is something that binds all living things and the rest of the cosmos. But to talk about what you were saying, I believe that there is no way a book can be all right. It is not possible. You can write every event in your life a truthfully as possible but some of the things you write in it will be false. That is because every lies. No matter who you are everyone lies. It is just how we are wired. So that is why when I see these idiots on TV that say they believe from word to word of a book to be the total truth I bust out laughing, because that shows how stupid a person can be.

THE UNKNOWABLE ESSENCE

All the people have formed a god in the world of thought, and that form of their own imagination they worship; when the fact is that the imagined form is finite and the human mind is infinite. Surely the infinite is greater than the finite, for imagination is accidental while the mind is essential; surely the essential is greater than the accidental.

Therefore consider: All the sects and peoples worship their own thought; they create a god in their own minds and acknowledge him to be the creator of all things, when that form is a superstition -- thus people adore and worship imagination.

That Essence of the Divine Entity and the Unseen of the unseen is holy above imagination and is beyond thought. Consciousness doth not reach It. Within the capacity of comprehension of a produced reality that Ancient Reality cannot be contained. It is a different world; from it there is no information; arrival thereat is impossible; attainment thereto is prohibited and inaccessible. This much is known: It exists and Its existence is certain and proven -- but the condition is unknown.

All the philosophers and the doctors knew that It is, but they were perplexed in the comprehension of Its existence and were at last discouraged, and in great despair they left this world. For the comprehension of the condition and mysteries of that Reality of realities and Mystery of mysteries there is need for another power and another sense. That power and sense is not possessed by mankind, therefore they have not found any information. For example: If a man possess the power of hearing, the power of tasting, the power of smelling and the power of feeling, but no power of seeing, he cannot see. Hence, through the powers and senses present in man the realization of the Unseen Reality, which is pure and holy above the reach of doubts, is impossible. Other powers are needed and other senses required. If those powers and senses are obtained, then information can be had; otherwise, not.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 381)

I'm Catholic, with a lot of Buddhist, some Protestant, and a touch of Wiccan.

I'm Catholic, with a lot of Buddhist, some Protestant, and a touch of Wiccan.

So you're not Catholic then. That's not meant to be flame-bait or anything, i'm just stating a fact (or what I perceive to be fact :rolleyes: ). I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school for 12 years, and was constantly told that all other religions are false. One of my best friends was Pagan, and was told by our Religious Education teacher that Paganism=Witchcraft=Satanism, and that she was evil and going to hell. This was in practically the same breath as preaching "religious equality" :headbang:

So you're not Catholic then. That's not meant to be flame-bait or anything, i'm just stating a fact (or what I perceive to be fact :rolleyes: ). I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school for 12 years, and was constantly told that all other religions are false. One of my best friends was Pagan, and was told by our Religious Education teacher that Paganism=Witchcraft=Satanism, and that she was evil and going to hell. This was in practically the same breath as preaching "religious equality" :headbang:
Born a Catholic, always a Catholic.

If I have to put myself into a box, then I'd fit in the Catholic one the most. I just stating a couple extra that define me a bit better.

Born a Catholic, always a Catholic.

If I have to put myself into a box, then I'd fit in the Catholic one the most. I just stating a couple extra that define me a bit better.

Fair enough. I'm by no means Catholic - my parents had me baptised so I could go to Catholic primary school, which was by far and away the best school in the area, and from there I automaticall went on to Catholic high school, which again was the best school in the area (and, at one point, one of the best in the country). I was Athiest for most of that time, though, mainly as a reaction to the way I was taught about religion and the way Catholicism was forced on me - there was a girl in my year who was Hindu, and she was allowed to skip RE lessons when we got taught about Catholicism because it might "offend" her. I argued that it was equally as offensive to me, because they basically said "this is right, everything else is wrong" - the headteacher even once said that "Athiests and doubters should be pitied, and you should go out of your way to show them the error of their ways." That's the only thing anybody's ever said that truly offended me. Needless to say, I wasn't allowed to skip RE lessons.

Right now, though, i'm exploring my spirituality on a very personal level, learning as much as I can about other people's beliefs, reading lots of philosophy. I might even figure out what I believe, one day :rolleyes:

I know what I believe in, though it might go through some modifications. I am happy with my belief, cos it makes sense, and doesn't contradict God nor Science.

Let’s conduct a little thought-experiment. If you were born in a pure christian society – think of Europe/America a few centuries ago (not too many for America) – there would be almost no doubt about the fact that you would become a Christian by hearth too. You would have become a muslim in a pure muslim society, a hindu in a pure hindu society, a jew in a pure jewish society, a worshipper of the Greek gods in ancient Greece, … a worshipper of the ‘invisible pink unicorn’ in a pure ‘invisible pink unicorn’ society, an atheist in a pure atheist society (a pure atheist society wouldn’t even understand the concept of a god – on a side note). In the right society, you could believe in a whole range of gods, ghosts, demons, mythological creatures etc.

I think we can all see the impact of society on ones faith and religion, or its absence. I find it however very odd that people will still claim that their religion is the right religion, that they KNOW their god exists because ‘THEIR’ faith tells them he does. A more extreme example: someone claiming that everything in the bible/thora/koran is true. How can you claim that you know for sure that something exists or must be true purely on faith, without hard evidence – because of it’s supernatural nature -, while at the same time realising that if you were raised somewhere else, you would have an entire different faith and you would say something else is the truth.

I myself find this way of ‘looking at something from different religions’ to be an argument pro ‘pure’ atheism, but that is my interpretation. I would like to see yours too tho.
Makes a good argument for viewing the faith you inherited in the hard, cold light of reason, doesn't it? But most people are more comfortable living with "the faith of their fathers" than facing the unknown. It seriously frightens many people to even think about reassessing their inherited beliefs, perhaps because many religions threaten such dire consequences for "leaving the faith." The threatened consequences for leaving most alleged "christian" religions is to "spend eternity in hell!"

I am happy with my belief

At the end of the day - to me, at least - that's all that matters

THE UNKNOWABLE ESSENCE

All the people have formed a god in the world of thought, and that form of their own imagination they worship; when the fact is that the imagined form is finite and the human mind is infinite. Surely the infinite is greater than the finite, for imagination is accidental while the mind is essential; surely the essential is greater than the accidental.

Therefore consider: All the sects and peoples worship their own thought; they create a god in their own minds and acknowledge him to be the creator of all things, when that form is a superstition -- thus people adore and worship imagination.

That Essence of the Divine Entity and the Unseen of the unseen is holy above imagination and is beyond thought. Consciousness doth not reach It. Within the capacity of comprehension of a produced reality that Ancient Reality cannot be contained. It is a different world; from it there is no information; arrival thereat is impossible; attainment thereto is prohibited and inaccessible. This much is known: It exists and Its existence is certain and proven -- but the condition is unknown.

All the philosophers and the doctors knew that It is, but they were perplexed in the comprehension of Its existence and were at last discouraged, and in great despair they left this world. For the comprehension of the condition and mysteries of that Reality of realities and Mystery of mysteries there is need for another power and another sense. That power and sense is not possessed by mankind, therefore they have not found any information. For example: If a man possess the power of hearing, the power of tasting, the power of smelling and the power of feeling, but no power of seeing, he cannot see. Hence, through the powers and senses present in man the realization of the Unseen Reality, which is pure and holy above the reach of doubts, is impossible. Other powers are needed and other senses required. If those powers and senses are obtained, then information can be had; otherwise, not.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 381)

This inspired me to do a tiny bit of research.
I read this:
http://www.cs.uu.nl/wais/html/na-dir/bahai-faith/introduction.html

This seems to be a very 'enlightened' religion:

-Most (if not all possible) attitudes for conducting science seem to be hardwired in the core of the religion.
-The above post indicates that the religion itself claims almost nothing can be known about god. It also sees other religions as manifestations of the same thing.
-I see a lot of human rights and social issues here – more than in for example Christianity – as basics.

It also gives religion directions, goals and – important to me – if it is used in a way that contradicts these goals, it is meaningless.

4. Religion as a source of unity

"He (Baha'u'llah) sets forth a new principle for this day in the
announcement that religion must be the cause of unity, harmony and
agreement among mankind. If it be the cause of discord and hostility,
if it leads to separation and creates conflict, the absence of
religion would be preferable in the world." --`Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i
World Faith, p. 247.

I can live with a religion like that around

All I know is that in the last Census we had here in the UK, I put my religion as Jedi Knight

Yes - I am one of those 500,000 people who helped make the Jedi Knight an OFFICIAL religion of the United Kingdom!

This inspired me to do a tiny bit of research.
I read this:
http://www.cs.uu.nl/wais/html/na-dir/bahai-faith/introduction.html

This seems to be a very 'enlightened' religion:

-Most (if not all possible) attitudes for conducting science seem to be hardwired in the core of the religion.
-The above post indicates that the religion itself claims almost nothing can be known about god. It also sees other religions as manifestations of the same thing.
-I see a lot of human rights and social issues here – more than in for example Christianity – as basics.

It also gives religion directions, goals and – important to me – if it is used in a way that contradicts these goals, it is meaningless.

4. Religion as a source of unity

"He (Baha'u'llah) sets forth a new principle for this day in the
announcement that religion must be the cause of unity, harmony and
agreement among mankind. If it be the cause of discord and hostility,
if it leads to separation and creates conflict, the absence of
religion would be preferable in the world." --`Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i
World Faith, p. 247.

I can live with a religion like that around

Happy to hear that did a little research. You may find the following site very interesting. I was raised Catholic. I religion that was in my mother's family for may generations. If I had been born in India I most likely would have been Hindu. Location of birth has more to do with our religion than correctness or rightness of the paticular religion. To find a religion that taught that all religions came from One God was like finding a glass of spring water in the dessert.


http://www.infonet.st-johns.nf.ca/providers/bahai/temples.html

All I know is that in the last Census we had here in the UK, I put my religion as Jedi Knight

Yes - I am one of those 500,000 people who helped make the Jedi Knight an OFFICIAL religion of the United Kingdom!
Um ... shouldn't that be "Jediism?" :D

All I know is that in the last Census we had here in the UK, I put my religion as Jedi Knight

Yes - I am one of those 500,000 people who helped make the Jedi Knight an OFFICIAL religion of the United Kingdom!

Heh, that was started here in New Zealand. It passed the threashold here too but they ignored it because they knew it was all shit.

Let’s conduct a little thought-experiment. If you were born in a pure christian society – think of Europe/America a few centuries ago (not too many for America) – there would be almost no doubt about the fact that you would become a Christian by hearth too. You would have become a muslim in a pure muslim society, a hindu in a pure hindu society, a jew in a pure jewish society, a worshipper of the Greek gods in ancient Greece, … a worshipper of the ‘invisible pink unicorn’ in a pure ‘invisible pink unicorn’ society, an atheist in a pure atheist society (a pure atheist society wouldn’t even understand the concept of a god – on a side note). In the right society, you could believe in a whole range of gods, ghosts, demons, mythological creatures etc.

I think we can all see the impact of society on ones faith and religion, or its absence. I find it however very odd that people will still claim that their religion is the right religion, that they KNOW their god exists because ‘THEIR’ faith tells them he does. A more extreme example: someone claiming that everything in the bible/thora/koran is true. How can you claim that you know for sure that something exists or must be true purely on faith, without hard evidence – because of it’s supernatural nature -, while at the same time realising that if you were raised somewhere else, you would have an entire different faith and you would say something else is the truth.

I myself find this way of ‘looking at something from different religions’ to be an argument pro ‘pure’ atheism, but that is my interpretation. I would like to see yours too tho.

I used to think that way too...

But once I overcame the all too common adolescent attitude of chronological arrogance, that is, "the gullible acceptance and the assumption that whatever has gone out of date, or is very old, is on that count discredited," I was able to make a better analyses of what had been said and analyzed and published before.

Finally free to consider the ideas and opinions of the past I was surprised to discover how invariably wrong the present is and seldom the victor in a gauge for comparative truth and justice with the old. Only then could I even consider the possibility that the Christian message could have some validity even in the twentieth and now twenty first century.

One author was of particularly influence, C.S. Lewis, his agonizing adulthood turn from atheism to faith was too much for me. And if I had wanted to stay in the possibility of thinking that all faiths were equal roads, I did not know what I was letting myself in for.

A young man who wishes to remain a impartial connoisseur of world religions cannot be too careful when choosing his reading material. . . . God is, if I may say it, very unscrupulous. I found that we are, from time to time not just called by God, but a better word might be kidnapped by inspiration and epiphany so that to deny after the fact would be a graver Sin than to never have known it at all. And to this day I thank him and his Son for it. :)

All I know is that in the last Census we had here in the UK, I put my religion as Jedi Knight

Yes - I am one of those 500,000 people who helped make the Jedi Knight an OFFICIAL religion of the United Kingdom!

It's not. They recognised people were just being stupid and denied it religion status.

I used to think that way too...

But once I overcame the all too common adolescent attitude of chronological arrogance, that is, "the gullible acceptance and the assumption that whatever has gone out of date, or is very old, is on that count discredited," I was able to make a better analyses of what had been said and analyzed and published before.

Finally free to consider the ideas and opinions of the past I was surprised to discover how invariably wrong the present is and seldom the victor in a gauge for comparative truth and justice with the old. Only then could I even consider the possibility that the Christian message could have some validity even in the twentieth and now twenty first century.

One author was of particularly influence, C.S. Lewis, his agonizing adulthood turn from atheism to faith was too much for me. And if I had wanted to stay in the possibility of thinking that all faiths were equal roads, I did not know what I was letting myself in for.

A young man who wishes to remain a impartial connoisseur of world religions cannot be too careful when choosing his reading material. . . . God is, if I may say it, very unscrupulous. I found that we are, from time to time not just called by God, but a better word might be kidnapped by inspiration and epiphany so that to deny after the fact would be a graver Sin than to never have known it at all. And to this day I thank him and his Son for it. :)

God is the loving Creator of all humanity, don't you think? The message of all revealed religions is essentialy the same. Only those who don't understand the message of Christ deny this.


"Leaders of religion, in every age, have hindered their people from attaining the shores of eternal salvation, inasmuch as they held the reins of authority in their mighty grasp. Some for the lust of leadership, others through want of knowledge and understanding, have been the cause of the deprivation of the people. By their sanction and authority, every Prophet of God hath drunk from the chalice of sacrifice, and winged His flight unto the heights of glory. What unspeakable cruelties they that have occupied the seats of authority and learning have inflicted upon the true Monarchs of the world, those Gems of divine virtue! Content with a transitory dominion, they have deprived themselves of an everlasting sovereignty. Thus, their eyes beheld not the light of the countenance of the Well-Beloved, nor did their ears hearken unto the *16* sweet melodies of the Bird of Desire. For this reason, in all sacred books mention hath been made of the divines of every age. Thus He saith: "O people of the Book! Why disbelieve the signs of God to which ye yourselves have been witnesses?" And also He saith: "O people of the Book! Why clothe ye the truth with falsehood? Why wittingly hide the truth?" Again, He saith: "Say, O people of the Book! Why repel believers from the way of God?" It is evident that by the "people of the Book," who have repelled their fellow-men from the straight path of God, is meant none other than the divines of that age, whose names and character have been revealed in the sacred books, and alluded to in the verses and traditions recorded therein, were you to observe with the eye of God."

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 15)

Let’s conduct a little thought-experiment. If you were born in a pure christian society – think of Europe/America a few centuries ago (not too many for America) – there would be almost no doubt about the fact that you would become a Christian by hearth too. You would have become a muslim in a pure muslim society, a hindu in a pure hindu society, a jew in a pure jewish society, a worshipper of the Greek gods in ancient Greece, … a worshipper of the ‘invisible pink unicorn’ in a pure ‘invisible pink unicorn’ society, an atheist in a pure atheist society (a pure atheist society wouldn’t even understand the concept of a god – on a side note). In the right society, you could believe in a whole range of gods, ghosts, demons, mythological creatures etc.

I think we can all see the impact of society on ones faith and religion, or its absence. I find it however very odd that people will still claim that their religion is the right religion, that they KNOW their god exists because ‘THEIR’ faith tells them he does. A more extreme example: someone claiming that everything in the bible/thora/koran is true. How can you claim that you know for sure that something exists or must be true purely on faith, without hard evidence – because of it’s supernatural nature -, while at the same time realising that if you were raised somewhere else, you would have an entire different faith and you would say something else is the truth.

I myself find this way of ‘looking at something from different religions’ to be an argument pro ‘pure’ atheism, but that is my interpretation. I would like to see yours too tho.

I did grow up in a society where everyone around me encouraged/insisted that I be Christian, and yet I am not. Why? Because I went through some stuff at a young age, and turned to my spirtuality. I questioned everything. It became clear to me that I never really believed in any "god", I was simply told to. This would have happened no matter what society I lived in.

I did grow up in a society where everyone around me encouraged/insisted that I be Christian, and yet I am not. Why? Because I went through some stuff at a young age, and turned to my spirtuality. I questioned everything. It became clear to me that I never really believed in any "god", I was simply told to. This would have happened no matter what society I lived in.

Ditto.

I did grow up in a society where everyone around me encouraged/insisted that I be Christian, and yet I am not. Why? Because I went through some stuff at a young age, and turned to my spirtuality. I questioned everything. It became clear to me that I never really believed in any "god", I was simply told to. This would have happened no matter what society I lived in.

Yeah, I think there's always going to be some people who reject whatever they are fed from a early age and create their own beleif system. I think the point of that post was that there's almost no people at all who grow up in a muslim society, have the faith thrust upon them, and then convert to christianity after hearing a little bit about it. And vice versa.

I did grow up in a society where everyone around me encouraged/insisted that I be Christian, and yet I am not. Why? Because I went through some stuff at a young age, and turned to my spirtuality. I questioned everything. It became clear to me that I never really believed in any "god", I was simply told to. This would have happened no matter what society I lived in.

But the society itself wasn't a pure christian society. It's a mixture of different faiths, with an atheist population thrown in. The government is supposed to be secular, just like modern science. If they weren't you would see these entities with a lot of authority (in all meanings of the word) simply implying that your religion is true. You also have a lot of acces to information from different societies. This means that a percentage of those brought up the 'christian way' (for your case) will leave that faith.

I myself was raised without seeing religion at home, but i saw it in society and i was baptised (my grandparents are religious). I was 13 or so when my dad told me he is an atheist (he rebelled against his parents). I do know that under (very - i am rather skeptic) different circumstances, i would have probably had a faith.

Let’s conduct a little thought-experiment. If you were born in a pure christian society – think of Europe/America a few centuries ago (not too many for America) – there would be almost no doubt about the fact that you would become a Christian by hearth too. You would have become a muslim in a pure muslim society, a hindu in a pure hindu society, a jew in a pure jewish society, a worshipper of the Greek gods in ancient Greece, … a worshipper of the ‘invisible pink unicorn’ in a pure ‘invisible pink unicorn’ society, an atheist in a pure atheist society (a pure atheist society wouldn’t even understand the concept of a god – on a side note). In the right society, you could believe in a whole range of gods, ghosts, demons, mythological creatures etc.

I think we can all see the impact of society on ones faith and religion, or its absence. I find it however very odd that people will still claim that their religion is the right religion, that they KNOW their god exists because ‘THEIR’ faith tells them he does. A more extreme example: someone claiming that everything in the bible/thora/koran is true. How can you claim that you know for sure that something exists or must be true purely on faith, without hard evidence – because of it’s supernatural nature -, while at the same time realising that if you were raised somewhere else, you would have an entire different faith and you would say something else is the truth.

I myself find this way of ‘looking at something from different religions’ to be an argument pro ‘pure’ atheism, but that is my interpretation. I would like to see yours too tho.

Actually, you're forgetting invention and conversion... Even in "pure" societies, people will convert to new faiths... Otherwise you wouldn't have as much "persecution" as there is at present and in the past.

Saudi Arabia is a "pure" Muslim society... How then, are Saudi Arabian citizens being "oppressed" for being Christian, how are the converting; they weren't "raised" christian... The same applied to early christianity... Why did the christians exist in old Rome, how did the appear in late Judaistic culture? Why would people convert to a faith that would only present them a death sentence? Why do people still do it in various places around the world?

There are Saudi's so sure of being christian, even after being raised muslim, and known the laws of their country, that such a conversion, if found out, will lead to death... Why then do they do it?

Your theory does not fit these aspects of the human psyche... Obviously something must explain it... Since you theory seems unable, I must dismiss it as groundless (under a scientific basis). And wait for a better theory.

What does that mean?

And, "as long as you're happy, that's all that matters"...what does that mean?

If there is only "meaning" in this temporal life, that I agree that we should pursue personal happiness.

For those who actually care, I'd like for you to consider each of the "religions" mentioned and what it means to become a "whatever".

It may or may not be true but some see religion as a crutch.

It is unreasonable to give crutches to one who doesn't need them.

It's just plain mean to take crutches from one who does need them.

What does that mean?

And, "as long as you're happy, that's all that matters"...what does that mean?

If there is only "meaning" in this temporal life, that I agree that we should pursue personal happiness.

For those who actually care, I'd like for you to consider each of the "religions" mentioned and what it means to become a "whatever".

Erm... what?

My religion is a self made one. To spare me alot of typing I found that what I had come up with is very close to secular humanism.

All I know is that in the last Census we had here in the UK, I put my religion as Jedi Knight

Yes - I am one of those 500,000 people who helped make the Jedi Knight an OFFICIAL religion of the United Kingdom!

hahaha, that's a cool thing to do!

I have my own religious ideals...i figure that basically as long as you are a basically good person (i.e. avoid intentionally harming others, always take the route that causes least harm) thats what matters. I don't know if there is any spiritual overlord(s) or whatever but if they care simply about people bowing and scraping to them they're egocentric and not worth respecting.
Therefore if any God was worth worshipping they wouldn't expect people to blindly follow them as long as they were basically doing good. If a God insisted upon people bowing down they wouldn't be worth worshipping and don't deserve my respect...therefore i'd be perfectly fine going to hell (or whatever) for my principles.
This means no disrespect to any religion, for all i know any of them could be right. I think its important that people are allowed to beleive whatever they choose and express it freely as long as it causes no harm to others.