NationStates Jolt Archive


Canadian Politics Gets Mildly Interesting

Whispering Legs
20-05-2005, 13:56
The Prime Minister's chief of staff, on tape, apparently discussing the possibility of a Senate seat for Gurmant Grewal if he abstains in tomorrow's vote.

If that is verified to be Tim Murphy's voice -- well what are the consequences in Canada?

None, apparently. Murphy is not denying it's his voice. But on CTV, it was just more can-you-believe-this "shenanigans." CBC was more interested in whether an Alberta MLA "crossed the line" by saying Stronach "whored herself" for a cabinet post (verdict: yes).

At no time during the tape does Murphy make an explicit offer to Grewal, and he carefully chooses his words and speaks about hypothetical situations.

The tape suggests that Murphy is more interested in Grewal abstaining than having the MP crossover to the Liberal side.

Murphy also says that it is a "bad idea" to "have any kind of commitment that involves an explicit trade."

However, Murphy tells Grewal that there are "other members of your current caucus who are facing the same dilemna that you face," suggesting the Liberals have been talking to other Tories who may be considering crossing the floor or abstaining.

"I don't think it's good if anybody lies, or if anybody is asked the question, 'Well is there a deal?' and you say, 'No.' Well you want that to be the truth," says Murphy.

"And that's what I want. I want the truth to be told."

On the tape, Murphy proposes the concept of Grewal abstaining from the vote and using the following excuse, which sounds eerily familiar.

"That can be done on the basis, those members can do it on the basis, 'Well look, my riding doesn't want an election, doesn't want one now. Thinks it's the wrong time to do it.'"

Murphy explains to Grewal that abstaining is a better option than crossing the floor and could allow for future talks.

"If someone abstains in that environment who has exercised a decision based on principle, (it) still gives him the freedom to have some negotiating room on both sides.

"Then the freedom to have discussions is increased."

Murphy described the next step for an MP who has abstained against the wishes of his party leader.

"A person can say, 'Look, I obviously abstained and created some issues' and then they can say, 'I'm thinking hard about what the right thing for my riding and the contribution I would like to make.'"

Murphy goes on to say, "In advance of that explicit discussions about Senate, not Senate I don't think are very helpful and I don't think can be had in advance of an abstention tomorrow."

He says discussions could be held later.

"You can easily say, if you don't like, you can stay home or stay back where you are or if you do like we can make an arrangement that allows you to move."
...

Although the Liberals are now saying that it was Grewal who approached them, on the tape Murphy suggests that should be clarified at a later date.

"It's much like Belinda where there is a third party who is independent of both sides," Murphy says. "So you didn't approach. We didn't approach."

Oh, it's exquisite, isn't it? "If anybody is asked the question, 'Well is there a deal?' and you say, 'No.' Well you want that to be the truth."
Got that? You want to be able to say truthfully that there's no deal. Which is pretty easy if in fact there is no deal. So why does it take eight minutes to sketch out how to do it here? Why do they have to agree that nobody should lie?

"I don't think it's good if anybody lies..." But here are the things you can say: "my riding doesn't want an election... I'm thinking hard about what the right thing for my riding [is], etc."

It's a "bad idea" to have an "explicit trade," but if someone abstains "based on principle" then "the freedom to have discussions is increased." Explicit discussions "about Senate, not Senate" are not "very helpful," or at least not "in advance of an abstention." But then "we can make an arrangement that allows you to move." And the whole thing can be arranged through a third party -- I hear David Peterson's available -- so that "you didn't approach, we didn't approach."

Section 119(1) of the Criminal Code (in Canada) says
every one who ... being a member of Parliament or of the legislature of a province, corruptly
(i) accepts or obtains,
(ii) agrees to accept, or
(iii) attempts to obtain,
any money, valuable consideration, office, place or employment for himself or another person in respect of anything done or omitted or to be done or omitted by him in his official capacity, or makes such an offer, is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years.

Section 124

every one who purports to sell or agrees to sell an appointment to or a resignation from an office, or a consent to any such appointment or resignation, or receives or agrees to receive a reward or profit from the purported sale thereof, is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years.

Wow. And I thought the US politics were smelly. Sounds like you all have a lot of dead carp laying about in a hot room.
Whispering Legs
20-05-2005, 14:40
bump for Dobbs
Whispering Legs
20-05-2005, 16:24
another bump for Dobbs
Whispering Legs
20-05-2005, 17:23
last one, and I'll give up
GrandBill
20-05-2005, 17:59
Thank you for the info,

As you said in another tread, Canadian is not enougth important on the international stage for these gimicks to change the world. But it will surly help the personal future of these people.

The sad thing is I highly doubt anybody will ever have legal issus because of this. What amaze the most with general population is our incredible capacity to complaint, while we basically pardon every time we should actually act.
Dakini
20-05-2005, 18:03
Is this the same conservative mp who keeps asking the liberals for a nice position and they keep refusing?

Or is this a different guy?
Xanaz
20-05-2005, 18:06
Is this the same conservative mp who keeps asking the liberals for a nice position and they keep refusing?

Or is this a different guy?

Yes, it's the same guy. It was reported the other day that it was he who approached the Liberals and taped this, not the other way around.
Whispering Legs
20-05-2005, 20:51
At least it's more exciting to watch than curling.
OceanDrive
20-05-2005, 21:03
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/05/19/grewel-050519.htmlthe bottom line: 3 facts.

1# Gurmant Grewal says the libs tried to make him a whore.

2# the libs says it was all Grewals idea...the he offered to be a whore.

<<<normally it would be his word vs the libs word...but here come fact number 3<<<

3# Grewal says that he taped the whoring conversation...
Whispering Legs
20-05-2005, 21:04
the bottom line: 3 facts.

1# Gurmant Grewal says the libs tried to make him a whore.

2# the libs says it was all Grewals idea...the he offered to be a whore.

<<<normally it would be his word vs the libs word...but here come fact number 3<<<

3# Grewal says that he taped the whoring conversation...

Since I'm not Canadian, I can't pass judgment on it. But it's the most exciting thing to come out of Canada since Trudeau.
Evil Cantadia
20-05-2005, 21:08
Oh the intrigue ... the betrayals, the broken hearts, the people fighting through illness ... it's one big soap opera.
Evil Cantadia
20-05-2005, 21:11
How's this for quote of the week from Carol;yn Parrish:
"Come hell or high water, there's no frigging way I'm going to let one ovary bring the government down,"
OceanDrive
20-05-2005, 21:12
Since I'm not Canadian, I can't pass judgment on it. But it's the most exciting thing to come out of Canada since Trudeau.

LOL...WTF?...you have been passing coments on the color of Saddam underwear ...and you have been passing "comments" since day one

so dont give me that shit. :mp5: :sniper: :D
Equus
20-05-2005, 21:14
Interesting. If it really is Murphy's voice on the tape, that would be a very big deal. However, keep in mind that Grewal is already on record making false accusations against the Immigration Minister, that he later withdrew. The Immigration Minister turned the matter over to the RCMP.

I'm not saying the Liberals didn't try to bribe him (I wouldn't put it past them), I'm just saying that his own character is rather tarnished already, and that I will reserve judgement until the voice analysis of the tape is complete.

There was another Conservative MP around whom rumours were floating that he was offered lots of goodies to vote for the budget.

Yet when he was asked to confirm the rumour, he said "No, it didn't happen."

However, the Belinda Stronach scenario makes the whole thing reasonably plausible.
Whispering Legs
20-05-2005, 21:16
LOL...WTF?...you have been passing coments on the color of Saddam underwear ...and you have been passing "comments" since day one

so dont give me that shit. :mp5: :sniper: :D

Saddam isn't a Canadian government official, to my knowledge. Did I miss something?
OceanDrive
20-05-2005, 21:32
Saddam isn't a Canadian government official, to my knowledge. Did I miss something?
he is a foreign governement official....or are you iraqi?

and where does it say that you cant talk about foreign Politicts?
Dakini
20-05-2005, 22:08
At least it's more exciting to watch than curling.
Blasphemy!
Dakini
20-05-2005, 22:26
he is a foreign governement official....or are you iraqi?

and where does it say that you cant talk about foreign Politicts?
If he doesnt' feel he knows enough to discuss it then let him stay out of it.

You're the one who thinks he can discuss what's going on without the faintest clue as to what's going on other than your perception of liberals=bad, conservatives=good, as you demonstrated yesterday by calling our parliment congress.
OceanDrive
21-05-2005, 00:11
... other than your perception of liberals=bad, conservatives=good, as you demonstrated yesterday by calling our parliment congress.1st: My perception is absolutely not that one side is "the good guys"...even If i am often on the liberal side of many issues...

2nd... If if bothers you that much i will ask the modfather to change the Title of that other thread.
If he doesnt' feel he knows enough to discuss it then let him stay out of it.fair enough...I take back my post about Saddam underwear...and the previous one too.