NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm a firm believer that money is not a necesity of society, and in fact that it is one of the greatest evils. So how come NationStates is so closed minded to only allow country's to work with a basically capitalist economy. I would like to run my country with a gift economy, but there is no option for this, or anything similar to it as it seems that every country has conventional money and taxes.

I just max the taxes, it comes to the same.

It would be nice though. Maybe for NS2?

Your name, "Crizzack"... Anything to do with Choking Victim/Leftover Crack?

As for the question, I suppose it might be because it would be a bit difficult to code in a whole new system for a gift economy. Or something like that. I'm no coder, but it seems like it might be a thing that would take a bit of effort to insert.

Change the name of your national currency to gift.

I'm a firm believer that money is not a necesity of society, and in fact that it is one of the greatest evils. So how come NationStates is so closed minded to only allow country's to work with a basically capitalist economy. I would like to run my country with a gift economy, but there is no option for this, or anything similar to it as it seems that every country has conventional money and taxes.

You communist.

Yeah, you communist.

Read the various justifications for the existence of money, be they from Aristotle, to Hayek, just read them.

And beyond that, how the hell can money be evil? It's an inanimate "object." It just sits there. Money can motivate men to evil, but so can a whole bunch of other things. Would you consider all the things that also motivate men to evil to be evil?

Just eat money. It's very healthy.

Greed is not evil. Excessive greed is. Greed can be a positive driving force for motivating success. If your economy is based on the barter system, no transaction will be fair. Instead of advancing, some fools amongst us choose to regress.

Just eat money. It's very healthy.

Do you know how dirty (unhygenic) money is? Espcially after passing through so many people (including som very sick people). If you eat green backs, you'll get green diahorrea pretty quickly!

Your name, "Crizzack"... Anything to do with Choking Victim/Leftover Crack?

As for the question, I suppose it might be because it would be a bit difficult to code in a whole new system for a gift economy. Or something like that. I'm no coder, but it seems like it might be a thing that would take a bit of effort to insert.

As a matter of fact Leftover Crack was very much on my mind when I picked the name. LoC and CV are both truly great bands, Morning Glory is also great, 'This is no time ta sleep' is one of my favorite cd's, but doesn't get any recognition.

I also do realize it would be a very difficult thing to change, but I kinda feel that the type of societies allowed in Nation States vary only small amounts relative to the diverse possibilities of what many would consider radical societies.

Read the various justifications for the existence of money, be they from Aristotle, to Hayek, just read them.

And beyond that, how the hell can money be evil? It's an inanimate "object." It just sits there. Money can motivate men to evil, but so can a whole bunch of other things. Would you consider all the things that also motivate men to evil to be evil?

Maybe I'll read something, do you have any specific works to suggest? However I doubt it will change my beliefs that money is truly not necessary. Historically, Native Americans and many Hunter/Gatherer cultures have worked without money. It is my belief that in the time of surplus that we are entering, the need of money is not here any more because basic necesities can or at least will be easily fulfilled.

As for money being evil, I think that living in a society run on money there is no true freedom. Hence being an ever present oppressive force I can generalize that all money is evil. I'm sure you don't agree with me, but I'd like you to know where I am coming from.

I'm a firm believer that money is not a necesity of society, and in fact that it is one of the greatest evils.

I agree. I'll trade you these shiny pebbles for a ham sandwich.

I'm a firm believer that money is not a necesity of society,

I don't understand how it would work witout money. It sounds good, but I don't get it. Please explain.

Just eat money. It's very healthy.
My nations currency is the Sandwich. All money is is a way to get sandwiches anyway-we did away with the cumbersome money-to-sandwich exchange process...

The "Time of Surplus" applies only to developed nations. The rest of the world goes without so that we may have our excess.

The problem isn't money or even greed, but a system which allows 1% of the people to have more than 50% of the wealth. I'm not suggesting some sort equalizing revolution, I'm not a communist. Letting the rest of the world have an equal opportunity to get filthy rich too would be a good thing though.

Money is a very handy way of dealing with finances and I haven't encountered an decent alternative yet. I've lived in a bartering and gift economy, 7 days a year (the Burning Man Festival, in Nevada) While it is a happy thing, in order to have accomplishments on the scale we've had, a currency based economy is neccessary. If you want flush toilets, cars, a nice warm house, areoplanes, great engineering and architechtural projects, you need currency or absolute dictatorship.

I take it you question the importance of such things. In my own opinion its a good thing to question them. Its a good thing to think of alternatives. Its even better to try and make them work, since its the only way to prove there are alternatives. The First Nations had a Gift Economy, and it certainly worked quite well. Good found their way clear across the continent. The Miqmaq of what is now New Brunswick, had reliable access to silver and tourqoise beads made my tribes in Nevada and California, etc.

But that was a completely different culture and it also wasn't the utopia many would have you beleive. There are problems encountered in any culture and any economy. But in a real world sense, it would take a social revolution and a hell of a lot of solidarity to make a Gift economy exist on any siginificant scale and for a long period of time. It would be pretty nice to have a choice of economies beyond the usual capitalist one given by default on NS. It may only be a matter of semantics, or it may be quite invovled and require hours and hours of coding. I really don't know which since the only programming I do is of my synths and FX. But for now the only option you do have is the semantic one already suggested: change your currency name to Gift.

I don't understand how it would work witout money. It sounds good, but I don't get it. Please explain.

There are several ideas of how this could work. One focusses on the assumption that human beings could be taught to work to the best of their ability because they like it and care for the wellbeing of their fellow men, instead of feeling the need for monetary rewards. With careful planning one can theoretically make sure there is enough of everything for everyone. Of course, noone will be rich or poor or to rephrase: have a standard of living that differs much from that of others in this system. This requires people to consider society more important than the individual self. I think this is unrealistic, but I love the concept.

Another one is the result of there being an abundance of everything. This is utopia. Which in practice probably requires highly advanced machinery or slaves.

Another one is a barter system, in which people promise eachother their services; and allow interchanging of services.
For instance:
Situation A: Mark is a carpenter and wants food. Henry is a fisherman and wants a new shed. Mark builds Hernry a shed, Henry gives Mark fish.
Situation B: Charles is a doctor and has healed Mark. Charles however does not need a shed; but he does owe Henry something for his fish. So as payment for his services he passes his debt to Henry on to Mark
In this form the system is grossly inefficient for a large society - and in fact the reason money was invented.

Yet another one is a combination of the "we all work to the best of our abilities" and the barter system. Everyone does their job. Tabs are kept to see who contributes a lot and who contributes less. People are rewarded accordingly - someone who conributes a lot will get priority when new houses need to be built or food is distributed, people who try to leech the system get less and less until they die. This could actually work.

I don't understand how it would work witout money. It sounds good, but I don't get it. Please explain.
Few already have, but I have a different answer. Read the study about gift economy by Marcel Mauss. Essai sur le don is the original title.
It's a classic.

The "Time of Surplus" applies only to developed nations. The rest of the world goes without so that we may have our excess.

We have the technology so that we could help other nations develop, but we prefer to keep the rest of the world without development so that we can keep our profit and luxuries.

But that was a completely different culture and it also wasn't the utopia many would have you beleive. There are problems encountered in any culture and any economy. But in a real world sense, it would take a social revolution and a hell of a lot of solidarity to make a Gift economy exist on any siginificant scale and for a long period of time.

There will never be a utopia, but we can still strive for the best possible life. As for revolution, I doubt that anarchy or successful communism will ever develop from revolution. First of all, any revolution, even from a corrupt system, will almost certainly involve people gaining power, even if they don't want it. It's sort of that people will not immediately switch from following to not-following, and the revolution will be corrupted from it's original ideals. However, also with a revolution there would have to be the creation of an entirely new system. Starting a new system without knowing what works and doesn't will almost certainly make the revolution fail.

So maybe the change can come from within the system, although not necessarily by the normal means of mainstream politics. I think that there could be a huge hippy movement (without hippys) to create a gift economy within a capitalist country but outside of the evils of capitalism/money. If this sub-culture could become entirely self-reliant, than it could continue to help it's members or even poor people all over the world live and be free. This way change could come without the majority imposing their own beliefs all over the nation. The difficulties would be in becoming self-reliant without playing by capitalist rules and that the governemnt (US) would unconstitutionally fight such a movement as they have done in the past.

this is kind of off topic but does anyone know with what programming language the game is coded in??

But that was a completely different culture and it also wasn't the utopia many would have you beleive. There are problems encountered in any culture and any economy.

Government was always about compromise and "the lesser of two evils". There never is an ideal solution. All systems take something for granted. For instance, communism assumes people can share, democracy assumes people can think, and capitalism assumes people can be generous and hardworking.

Thus, the current monetary system assumes people are incorruptible. It is still the worst system to date, besides the other ones that failed. ;)