NationStates Jolt Archive

Charging money for services is generally legal. Having consentual adult sex is legal. Why is the combination of the two illegal? Why is it considered immoral by so many people?

Maybe if the women were free agents, it wouldnt be so bad, but I think having a pimp who beats them up and takes half of their money would suck. They should start a hookers union or something.

One word: Religion

Maybe if the women were free agents, it wouldnt be so bad, but I think having a pimp who beats them up and takes half of their money would suck. They should start a hookers union or something.
You're right about lowlife pimps. I also support union labor. My question is why the prostitutes and their customers get arrested.

Maybe if the women were free agents, it wouldnt be so bad, but I think having a pimp who beats them up and takes half of their money would suck. They should start a hookers union or something.
Which could only happen if prostitution were legalised. And I agree. It's never going to go away, and the real problem with it is not the act itself, but rather the things that tend to surround ALL illegal activities. Make it legal, make it safe. I honestly don't get why it's illegal in the first place.

It's because all sex is rape. Duh.

We're working on outlawing all sex, but we haven't gotten very far on that. So prostitution is just a start.

because its pootinky!

isnt the question "why is prostitution STILL illegal?"?

with so many people of all sorts giving it away so freely what would be wrong with charging for it?

the legal brothels of nevada give their workers good money and good protection from the obvious downsides of the job. they also protect the customers from the obvous risks. sure it costs more but you get better service.

I have to say it is immoral and discusting and something so nasty that it should not be exposed to children. Think of the STD's also.

I have to say it is immoral and discusting and something so nasty that it should not be exposed to children.
Err, nobody's arguing that children should have anything to do with it...
Think of the STD's also.
And once it's legal, we can actually regulate it to stem the spread of STDs, unlike now.

Isn't the purpose of government stamping out sin and crushing the sinful beneath the righteous jackboots of the Christian Right?

I have to say it is immoral and discusting and something so nasty that it should not be exposed to children. Think of the STD's also.
Well, different people have different morality, I'm not advocating child prostitutes or children patronizing prostitutes, and condoms help fight STDs. With the proper precautions it's as safe as normal sex.

I have to say it is immoral and discusting and something so nasty that it should not be exposed to children. Think of the STD's also.
those are all excellent reasons for you to not patronize prostitutues. and especially for you not to bring one home for the kids!

Prostitution is not illegal.

Oh, you mean in some other unspecified country? Which one?

those are all excellent reasons for you to not patronize prostitutues. and especially for you not to bring one home for the kids!
Well do you want them to learn about sex in the streets?

maybe it would be ok if they formed a union

Prostitution is not illegal.

Oh, you mean in some other unspecified country? Which one?
There are no laws I know of which specifically make prostitution illegal. The laws are usually things like, soliciting for the purpose of selling sexual services, etc. Nonetheless, in practice, these laws effectively make prostitution an illicit, and illegal activity.

I guess it's a good thing prostution is illegal in most places, that's where a lot of drug busts come from.

There are no laws I know of which specifically make prostitution illegal. The laws are usually things like, soliciting for the purpose of selling sexual services, etc. Nonetheless, in practice, these laws effectively make prostitution an illicit, and illegal activity.

Where?

It is considered immoral because all Christian faiths consider sex outside of marriage to be immoral.

As do I.

It is illegal, because the country was founded upon religious belief. There was only a separation of church and state in that the govt doens't recognize one church over another. But all the laws are based on Christian values.

Unfortunately a lot of these laws have been changing.

It is considered immoral because all Christian faiths consider sex outside of marriage to be immoral.

As do I.

It is illegal, because the country was founded upon religious belief. There was only a separation of church and state in that the govt doens't recognize one church over another. But all the laws are based on Christian values.

Unfortunately a lot of these laws have been changing.

What you say is true but there are other faiths besides christian which consider it immoral

I guess it's a good thing prostution is illegal in most places, that's where a lot of drug busts come from.
Sorry...grammar note...your pronoun 'that' agrees with prostitution, making your sentence:

I guess it's a good thing prostitution is illegal in most places. Most places is where a lot of drug busts come from. :p

It is illegal, because the country was founded upon religious belief. There was only a separation of church and state in that the govt doens't recognize one church over another. But all the laws are based on Christian values.
Show us some proof from the Constitution maybe? I don't remember anywhere that it even mentioned Christianity at all.
Unfortunately a lot of these laws have been changing.
I believe you mean "fortunately". I, for one, am glad we don't live under the jackboot of oppression a theonomist state would be.

Maybe if the women were free agents, it wouldnt be so bad, but I think having a pimp who beats them up and takes half of their money would suck. They should start a hookers union or something.
Thus, legalise it. Makes it easy to prosecute violent employers/pimps and to unionise.

I guess it's a good thing prostution is illegal in most places, that's where a lot of drug busts come from.
The criminality of prostitution is one of the reasons our society has so many problems with drugs and prostitutes.

Prostitution is illegal because sex of pleasure is evil. I thought everyone knew that.

There are, of course, loopholes to this.
Porn movies for example. The ators aren't being paid for sex, they are being paid for acting. Sex is just part of the preformance.
Theraputic sex surrogates. They aren't paid for sex. They are paid for therapy. The therapy just hapens to involve sex.

Those guys who ar ereally desprate can pay women to bear their children. Its perfectly legal but it involves sex.

What you say is true but there are other faiths besides christian which consider it immoral

sorry, didn't mean to exclude anyone, I was just explaining why the US in particular was that way :) There weren't really any non-christians in the Continental Congress. Maybe an atheist (Franklin?) but I don't think so. (He was just more liberal than most)

It is true that many religions consider it to be an abomination.

Well do you want them to learn about sex in the streets?
it was good enough for me!

lol

i think of prostitutes as those nice women who trade sex for money. same with strippers, those nice women who take off their clothes for money. what a win/win business it is. as long as everyone participates freely and gets to keep what they earn.

Would it still be considered immoral if that was a last resort for someone who needed the money and did not know where their next meal was coming from? I'm curious to hear some thoughts on this.

Where?
So selling sex is not illegal in itself. However, activities surround prostitution ARE illegal in Canada (and Britain and France have many similar laws to ours in this regard)
Prostitution is legal in all of Canada it has been part of the Federal Criminal Code since at least mid 1800s. It is similar to British law and laws in much of Europe. Local communities can establish brothels and have some other limited powers such as licensing and zoning but can not outlaw prostitution which flourishes throughout Canada.

While prostitution itself is legal how it is practiced is restricted and enforcement differs greatly in different cities. The Criminal Code of Canada restricts:

1. Communicating - to avoid street prostitution by preventing soliciting or having sex in public. Car sex is illegal unless in a very secluded location as one case pointed out. A telephone is private so you can discuss it freely. It is also perfectly legal for a prostitute to advertise in magazines, newspapers and websites, as they are not considered public (you choose to buy it, read it in privately and read what you privately decide to read).

Section 213 of the Criminal Code states that communicating for the purpose of prostitution is a summary conviction offence. Summary offences are considered "less serious", carrying a maximum six-month jail term, a $2,000 fine, or both. The offender does not receive a formal criminal record, nor are fingerprints or photographs taken.

2."Bawdy Houses" are illegal. This provision was made part of the Canadian Federal Code in 1850. Yes, 1850. A bawdy house is a place kept, occupied or used by at least one person for the purposes of prostitution or indecent acts. Therefore incall service is illegal but enforcement of this varies in different cities from no known enforcement in Vancouver to even trying to use this provision to shut down swing clubs in some Eastern Canadian cities.

3. "Procuring and living off the income of prostitution" is illegal with its source back in the 1800s. Currently most of the enforcement of this law is against pimps living off the income of street prostitutes often also associated with drug crimes.

It is considered immoral because all Christian faiths consider sex outside of marriage to be immoral.

Something for which I have never heard a coherent and non-selfcontradicting argument. Except for "God wants it" of course.

It is illegal, because the country was founded upon religious belief. There was only a separation of church and state in that the govt doens't recognize one church over another. But all the laws are based on Christian values.

*Some* of the laws of the USA. Definately not all. Most likely even a minority - unless you consider things like "thou shalt not kill" and "thou shalst not steal" patented by Christianity.

Show us some proof from the Constitution maybe? I don't remember anywhere that it even mentioned Christianity at all.


You obviously don't know much about US history. It is not written in the Constitution "our laws are christian laws" but if you knew anything about the men who wrote it you would understand what I'm saying.

Guess what? THE ONLY WAY TO STEM THIS STD CRISIS IS TO PROMOTE ABSTINANCE BEFORE MARRIAGE AND FAITHFULNESS TO MARRIAGE PARTNERS. Don't believe me? Then look at some of the African countries where these campaigns have worked.

Legalizing prostitution would not only promote immorality but spread disease. There is a reason God wanted everyone to have one partner. Not only does it form a closer bond, but makes everyone healthier.

Also, prostitution is the horrid treatment of women as products to be bought and sold, like slaves. (By the way, the US is listed as one of the countries with a serious problem in enslaving other humans.) Just like pornography, prostitution makes women objects to be used and abused.

These are the reasons prostitution should NEVER be legal.

Show us some proof from the Constitution maybe? I don't remember anywhere that it even mentioned Christianity at all.

I believe you mean "fortunately". I, for one, am glad we don't live under the jackboot of oppression a theonomist state would be.
I'll see your "constitution doesn't mention Christianity" and raise you a "constitution doesn't even mention god".

How about it being illegal sice many prostitutes are teenagers? Should arrest those bozos who go to them not for sex with prostitutes but for statuatory rape since its with a minor. Lets see how many johns there are then!

Sorry...grammar note...your pronoun 'that' agrees with prostitution, making your sentence:

I guess it's a good thing prostitution is illegal in most places. Most places is where a lot of drug busts come from. :p

I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, but if I wanted a grammar lesson, I would have stayed in college.

Guess what? THE ONLY WAY TO STEM THIS STD CRISIS IS TO PROMOTE ABSTINANCE BEFORE MARRIAGE AND FAITHFULNESS TO MARRIAGE PARTNERS. Don't believe me? Then look at some of the African countries where these campaigns have worked.
Are you kidding?
I don't know of any African countries that are doing better than we are with STDs, and many of them have AIDS running wild.
So no, I don't believe you.
Legalizing prostitution would not only promote immorality but spread disease. There is a reason God wanted everyone to have one partner. Not only does it form a closer bond, but makes everyone healthier.
Well, where does it say that the Government is supposed to do what you say your God wants?

Would it still be considered immoral if that was a last resort for someone who needed the money and did not know where their next meal was coming from? I'm curious to hear some thoughts on this.


Yes, I would. It is immoral. The sin of adultery is worse than the sin of stealing. while both are wrong.

Show us some proof from the Constitution maybe? I don't remember anywhere that it even mentioned Christianity at all.

Um, sorry to have to tell you this, but EVERY founder was a Christian. Yeah. And though they did not specifically mention religion in the Constitution (for obvious reasons, it being a supreme legal document), it is mentioned in numerous documents of the time, namely the Declaration of Independance. The US really was founded upon Christianity.

How about it being illegal sice many prostitutes are teenagers? Should arrest those bozos who go to them not for sex with prostitutes but for statuatory rape since its with a minor. Lets see how many johns there are then!
Legalising prostituion would not make it suddenly legal to have sex with a minor.

You obviously don't know much about US history. It is not written in the Constitution "our laws are christian laws" but if you knew anything about the men who wrote it you would understand what I'm saying.

Yes. They were deists - not Christians ;)
Quote from the 1796 Treaty of Tripoli, initiated by George Washington, was signed into law by John Adams, and ratified by a Congress consisting of many of the Framers of the Constitution:

"the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion"

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html

I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, but if I wanted a grammar lesson, I would have stayed in college.
Hehehe...no problem. I apologise...I've been studying too much grammar lately, and the sentence just struck me as funny because it was (unintentionally) incredibly vague. It was more of a *chuckle chuckle* than a pedantic "hey buddy, learn how to write" :D

Yes, I would. It is immoral. The sin of adultery is worse than the sin of stealing. while both are wrong.

I agree with that, however, both persons involved could not be married, thus not making it adultry. What is you thought on that?

Legalising prostituion would not make it suddenly legal to have sex with a minor.

That's not what I meant, I believe that having sex with a teenage prostitute should include the rape charge, teenage prostitutes are still teenagers.

Hehehe...no problem. I apologise...I've been studying too much grammar lately, and the sentence just struck me as funny because it was (unintentionally) incredibly vague. It was more of a *chuckle chuckle* than a pedantic "hey buddy, learn how to write" :D

No problem, I usually get on people's nerves when I correct their spelling ;)

Guess what? THE ONLY WAY TO STEM THIS STD CRISIS IS TO PROMOTE ABSTINANCE BEFORE MARRIAGE AND FAITHFULNESS TO MARRIAGE PARTNERS. Don't believe me? Then look at some of the African countries where these campaigns have worked.

Legalizing prostitution would not only promote immorality but spread disease. There is a reason God wanted everyone to have one partner. Not only does it form a closer bond, but makes everyone healthier.

Also, prostitution is the horrid treatment of women as products to be bought and sold, like slaves. (By the way, the US is listed as one of the countries with a serious problem in enslaving other humans.) Just like pornography, prostitution makes women objects to be used and abused.

These are the reasons prostitution should NEVER be legal.
1 In what nation, African or other, has any abstinance program worked? How do you define worked?

2 People patronize prostitutes regardless of regulations. Legalizing it only allows protection from violence for prostitutes and their clients, and allows for better health regulations like condoms, frequent medical examinations, et cetera. God doesn't come into it. You can't make laws based on what you think your god wants. We're not a theocracy.

3 Legalized prostitution isn't slavery. It's a job. It would be illegal to employ prostitutes against their will. Legalized prostitution would be a job like any other.

4 Are people "used and abused" at other jobs? Why do you think prostitution is any different?

Guess what, here in Holland, prostitution is not illegal!

And you know why? Because we let people make their own choices.

Outdated religious morals should not interfere with state buisness or law.
Why else would there be a seperation of church and state? Because not everyone believes in (IMO) the fictional gods of others.

Legal prostitution means tax income, regulations for proper buisness, no secretive sex in a filthy enviroment with an AIDS infected cokesniffing person, but safe sex, in a clean enviroment.

Um, sorry to have to tell you this, but EVERY founder was a Christian.
Wrong.
http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm
And even if they were, what does that have to do with them wanting to establish a theocracy?
Yeah. And though they did not specifically mention religion in the Constitution (for obvious reasons, it being a supreme legal document), it is mentioned in numerous documents of the time, namely the Declaration of Independance. The US really was founded upon Christianity.
If they actually wanted Christian principles to be followed, it would be in the Constitution. There are no "obvious reasons" they would leave something that big out of it if they wanted it done that way.

my opinion is thus: i beleive that you should be allowed to do pretty much anything you want as long as:

1: it does not hurt anyone else
2: you and anyone else involved do so of your own free will

this includes drugs and prostitution. If you want to go pay someone to have sex with you and the other person is willing to then i say go ahead. its perfectly legal to do so (dicounting adultry and minors) if no money is exchanged so why is making it into a business illegal. I do not however think it should be legal to have children involved. at all. My solution to the problem is let prostitution be legal, they must follow all laws concerning buisnusses and if anyone under the age of 18 is involved then the businuss may be conisdered illegal and shut down.

Yes. They were deists - not Christians ;)

"the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion"


The religion, no. The TEACHINGS, yes.

PhoebeAnne

Adultery and Fornication are varying degrees of the same thing. While adultery is the worst (second only to murder) fornication comes in right behind.

It is considered immoral because all Christian faiths consider sex outside of marriage to be immoral.

As do I.

It is illegal, because the country was founded upon religious belief. There was only a separation of church and state in that the govt doens't recognize one church over another. But all the laws are based on Christian values.

Unfortunately a lot of these laws have been changing.

Sex outside of marriage is not immoral. What if someone's personal beliefs do not allow for a "marriage" in the traditional sense?

And the fact that this country was founded on religious belief doesn't excuse bigotry nor discrimination. It is exactly that view that is taking our civil rights away, little by little. Besides...wasn't the whole reason in coming to the "new world" to get away from the over-bearingly religious government and its persecution?

I like that the laws are changing. You've got to change with the times. It's called evolution.

That's not what I meant, I believe that having sex with a teenage prostitute should include the rape charge, teenage prostitutes are still teenagers.
Yes. But the crime should be one of statuatory rape, not one of prostitution.

Why else would there be a seperation of church and state? Because not everyone believes in (IMO) the fictional gods of others.
Small detail: contrary to the USA the Netherlands does not have seperation of church and state (being a constitutional monarchy and all). And yet prostitution was legalised. And the current prime minister is the leader of the Christian party. Think about that ;)

prostitution is a serious issue becuase there are so many different levels of it...there are children prostitutes and sex slaves that didn't ask to be in that life so we couldn't make it legal and say "hey it's your choice" ...the question i wanna know is "WHY ISN'T WEED LEGAL?? LOL i already know it is becuase the government makes way more money if it is illegal i mean just look at all the money put into and the jobs created off of the so-called "war on drugs"

It has little to do with religion.

STDs are spread by prostituion, just look at Africa. It costs the government and the taxpayers a lot of money to clean it up. Plus it takes the place of many real jobs that need filling.

You obviously don't know much about US history. It is not written in the Constitution "our laws are christian laws" but if you knew anything about the men who wrote it you would understand what I'm saying.
Yes, I know that they were not all Christians. I also know that the Constitution was designed to be the supreme codification of the basic laws of the United States, and if they meant for the US to be a theocracy rather than what it currently is, they would have said so, unless they were blindingly idiotic, which I somehow doubt. Them being the Founding Fathers of our country and all.

It has little to do with religion.

STDs are spread by prostituion, just look at Africa. It costs the government and the taxpayers a lot of money to clean it up. Plus it takes people away from real jobs.
STDs are not spread by prostitution. STDs are spread by unsafe sex, period. Having sex with someone who does not charge you for the service does not protect you from an STD. Your argument in this regard, is flawed and does not justify your stance that prostitution "should be illegal in order to stop the spread of STDs".

my opinion is thus: i beleive that you should be allowed to do pretty much anything you want as long as:

1: it does not hurt anyone else
2: you and anyone else involved do so of your own free will



This is THE worst argument for anything. There is nothing in this world that truly falls in the category of on affecting you. You have to be a very self centered person to even begin to think that has even a shred of truth.

There are consequences for everything. It may not hurt anyone else that you are AWARE of at the moment. But it will. If it doesn't debase you to the point of hurting someone else, it may have other ramifications that you just can't be bothered with worrying about.

Bawdy house enforcement does happen in Vancouver, Jamie Lee Hamilton has been in and out of court for years on the charge of operating a common bawdy house here.

This isn't an argument about the founders of the United States or religious beliefs which may or may not restrict marriage.

Prostitution is illegal for the same reason Marijuana is illegal - "for the common good." It would be remarkably difficult to decriminalize prostitution because any Congressman who proposed or voted for such a law would be painted as someone bent on breaking up households across America.

The argument should be over whether or not the inconsistencies in laws governing sex should be done away with. The argument against pornography shouldn't be about freedom of speech, or whether or not the industry degrades women (it doesn't, in my opinion. The man is just as naked, and they both made a choice to be there). It should be about the fact that prostitution is both legal and illegal, depending on whether or not a camera is involved.

This is THE worst argument for anything. There is nothing in this world that truly falls in the category of on affecting you. You have to be a very self centered person to even begin to think that has even a shred of truth.

There are consequences for everything. It may not hurt anyone else that you are AWARE of at the moment. But it will. If it doesn't debase you to the point of hurting someone else, it may have other ramifications that you just can't be bothered with worrying about.

Intruiging. So me snapping my fingers in a closed room will have world changing ramifications ?

This is THE worst argument for anything.

There is nothing in this world that truly falls in the category of on affecting you. You have to be a very self centered person to even begin to think that has even a shred of truth.

There are consequences for everything. It may not hurt anyone else that you are AWARE of at the moment. But it will. If it doesn't debase you to the point of hurting someone else, it may have other ramifications that you just can't be bothered with worrying about.
Did you actually read the points before you made this (unsupported) value judgement? Let me paraphrase them again for you:

You should be free to do as you wish as long as:
1) you are not harming anyone else
2) you and those involved with you, are consenting *adults* (I added the last:))

Now, specifically, what do you see wrong with this argument? Yes, there are consequences for everything, but not all consequences cause harm to others. Unless you can link my refusal to learn the Greek alpahabet with some harm to another human down the road, that I just can't forsee?

Charging money for services is generally legal. Having consentual adult sex is legal. Why is the combination of the two illegal? Why is it considered immoral by so many people?
I blame it on women's sufferage.

I blame it on women's sufferage.
*smacks you with her feminist hand....the LEFT one, of course:)*
Prostitution has existed as a persecuted trade long before sufferage.

Um... everyone here is talking about the medical and monitary issues with prostitution, but what about emotional issues?

Sex is a very emotional thing for a large majority of people, and if prostitution was legal, well, it can cause mental issues, and people losing respect for the act of sex.

My guess is that most of you people for prostitution have no respect for sex.

Oh yea, and whoever it was that was arguing that the US was NOT founded on christian beliefs.... :headbang:...

...Take a HIGH SCHOOL History class

Unless you can link my refusal to learn the Greek alpahabet with some harm to another human down the road, that I just can't forsee?

This I predict: your ignorance of Greek language will ultimately doom the human race when the extraterrestrial descendents of Greece return to destroy the world, and you are chosen as Humanity's ambassador to the alien army.

I have to say it is immoral and discusting and something so nasty that it should not be exposed to children. Think of the STD's also.You can get STD's from free sex too. Should that be illegal too?

STDs are not spread by prostitution. STDs are spread by unsafe sex, period. Having sex with someone who does not charge you for the service does not protect you from an STD. Your argument in this regard, is flawed and does not justify your stance that prostitution "should be illegal in order to stop the spread of STDs".
STDs are spread by polygamy, and prostitution is polygamy. Look at Africa - how do you think AIDs spread so fast? It's ridiculous to think that you are totally protected with a condem.

::grins:: ok ok I exagerated a teensy bit. but it always bugs the heck out of me when people pull the stupid, "it doesn't hurt anyone but me" card.
because if you are talking about drugs, sex, alcohol, or any other weighty matter, then there are other people involved. You are not alone in the world. If you do drugs, you might be hurting yourself, but the person you land on in the middle of the sidewalk after you leap from the building trying to fly is probably not going to appreciate dying because you were only hurting yourself.

Maybe if the women were free agents, it wouldnt be so bad, but I think having a pimp who beats them up and takes half of their money would suck. They should start a hookers union or something.
cant be done if it aint legaaaaal...... ;)

and if prostitution was legal, well, it can cause mental issues, and people losing respect for the act of sex.
Sources? Proof? Care to back up your argument that "legal prostitution would cause mental issues and people losing respect for the act of sex, but keeping it illegal would stop all that"!!??

My guess is that most of you people for prostitution have no respect for sex.
You are mistaken. I don't like prostitution. Just like I don't like people who issue parking tickets. It doesn't mean I think these practices should be illegal. I would never myself purchases the services of a prostitute, but making prostitution illegal does NOT get rid of it, and in fact, makes it more dangerous both for those offering the service, and those accessing it.

Um, sorry to have to tell you this, but EVERY founder was a Christian. Yeah. And though they did not specifically mention religion in the Constitution (for obvious reasons, it being a supreme legal document), it is mentioned in numerous documents of the time, namely the Declaration of Independance. The US really was founded upon Christianity.
Actually the did mention religion in the constitution. They said that government shall establish none. Also, sorry to burst your bubble, most of the founding fathers who had a hand in creating our government were deists.

My guess is that most of you people for prostitution have no respect for sex.

Define "having respect for sex" and why we should have it ?
Some people distinguish between making love and sex. Others just enjoy it. Why are they wrong ?

Oh yea, and whoever it was that was arguing that the US was NOT founded on christian beliefs.... :headbang:...
...Take a HIGH SCHOOL History class

I suggest considering to sue your teachers. Did they leave out evolution too ?

I have been to Holland, where prostitution is legal. it is rather nice there, hookers siting on stools behind glass doors, men of all walks of life heading in for some loving, no pimps in sight, the goverment paying for medical exams and taking a cut of their profits like sales tax. that, and the Dutch pot control system, are very smart ways to manage social "problems" such as this.

The founding fathers were deists. I'm a Christian conservative and even I admit that.

STDs are spread by polygamy, and prostitution is polygamy. Look at Africa - how do you think AIDs spread so fast? It's ridiculous to think that you are totally protected with a condem.
Prostitution is not polygamy. Polygamy is polygamy. You see the difference? Making prostitution illegal does not stop polygamy. And good luck outlawing all premarital sex.

That's not what I meant, I believe that having sex with a teenage prostitute should include the rape charge, teenage prostitutes are still teenagers.
Of course. All the normal sex laws would apply, just not the ones that make it illegal to take money in return for sex.

My guess is that most of you people for prostitution have no respect for sex.
Thank you for the personal attack!
:)
Oh yea, and whoever it was that was arguing that the US was NOT founded on christian beliefs.... :headbang:...

...Take a HIGH SCHOOL History class
Interesting, I've taken a few, and they didn't mention anything of the sort. In fact, they spoke about this intriguing thing called "separation of church and state".

Care to enlighten me as to what it is you mean?

"Sources? Proof? Care to back up your argument that "legal prostitution would cause mental issues and people losing respect for the act of sex, but keeping it illegal would stop all that"!!??"

If a person is rapped, have you ever seen the effects after?

If a person has sex at a young age or before the person is really ready, have you ever seen the effects?

Proof is there. Sex is VERY mental.

it's only considdered immoral by idiots. ;)

Prostitution is not polygamy. Polygamy is polygamy. You see the difference? Making prostitution illegal does not stop polygamy. And good luck outlawing all premarital sex.
Yes, sex with multiple partners is polygamy. Prostitutes have sex with multiple partners, and the men can also visit several prostitutes. Thus polygamy. Prostitution is worse then typical polygamy because its with a lot more partners, and more accessible.

I don't want to ban premarital sex.

The religion, no. The TEACHINGS, yes.

PhoebeAnne

Adultery and Fornication are varying degrees of the same thing. While adultery is the worst (second only to murder) fornication comes in right behind.
Fornication is third behind murder? That's just crazy. I don't know how to even respond to such an unbeleivably insane statement.

Fornication is third behind murder? That's just crazy. I don't know how to even respond to such an unbeleivably insane statement.

Then why did you post at all?

"Sources? Proof? Care to back up your argument that "legal prostitution would cause mental issues and people losing respect for the act of sex, but keeping it illegal would stop all that"!!??"

If a person is rapped, have you ever seen the effects after?

If a person has sex at a young age or before the person is really ready, have you ever seen the effects?

Proof is there. Sex is VERY mental.
You're not answering the question. Your assertation is:

Legal prostitution would cause mental issues and people losing respect for the act of sex.

THEREFORE:

Making prostitution illegal will stop people from having mental problems and losing respect for sex? How exactly?

And rape is another issue altogether. A red herring actually.

Neo-Anarchists:

NP for the personal attack.

Seperation of church and state is a WHOLE seperate issue.

Now... who came over and founded the US? Christians.. yes... who created the laws.... yes thats right.. chritians..... what does our most sacred document hold most in common with? Oh yes.. the beliefs of chritianity.... Take a good look at both.

it's only considdered immoral by idiots.

what a truly enlightened response, I'm glad we have progressed this far in civilization that comments on people's personal beliefs systems can be classified in such an educated manner.

Smeck, if you want to say a REASON, give a reason. Declaring the low IQ of religious people, doesn't shine a bright light on your own IQ.

Yes, sex with multiple partners is polygamy. Prostitutes have sex with multiple partners, and the men can also visit several prostitutes. Thus polygamy. Prostitution is worse then typical polygamy because its with a lot more partners, and more accessible.

I don't want to ban premarital sex.
Then what do you want exactly? Monogomous premarital sex? How is making prostitution illegal going to stop polygamy?

also in most places now. You cant use religious ideals as laws. "thats a real big no-no" but honestly what someone wants to do to earn their living isn't any of our buisness so if they want to it's their choice and it's their partners choice to as well and if there is a hell then it's their choice to risk going to it.

"Sources? Proof? Care to back up your argument that "legal prostitution would cause mental issues and people losing respect for the act of sex, but keeping it illegal would stop all that"!!??"

If a person is rapped, have you ever seen the effects after?

If a person has sex at a young age or before the person is really ready, have you ever seen the effects?

Proof is there. Sex is VERY mental.
But prostitution is neither underage sex nor rape.

Um... everyone here is talking about the medical and monitary issues with prostitution, but what about emotional issues?

Sex is a very emotional thing for a large majority of people, and if prostitution was legal, well, it can cause mental issues, and people losing respect for the act of sex.

My guess is that most of you people for prostitution have no respect for sex.

Oh yea, and whoever it was that was arguing that the US was NOT founded on christian beliefs.... :headbang:...

...Take a HIGH SCHOOL History class
I did take high school history classes. They said that the ideals of our republic had their roots in the enlightenment. You know, that time in European history when people began to think for themselves and question the church.

Then why did you post at all?
Probably in the hopes that the original poster would clarify or defend the post.

what a truly enlightened response, I'm glad we have progressed this far in civilization that comments on people's personal beliefs systems can be classified in such an educated manner.

Smeck, if you want to say a REASON, give a reason. Declaring the low IQ of religious people, doesn't shine a bright light on your own IQ.

I was just playing around ;)

I'm completly indiffrent about the whole religious thing. it's your opinion and I respect it completly

Then what do you want exactly? Monogomous premarital sex? How is making prostitution illegal going to stop polygamy?
It's not about stopping all polygamy, just the worst type: prostitution. Prostitution is large-scale and readily accessible polygamy, making it much worse then just pre-marital sex.

But prostitution is neither underage sex nor rape.

very true

Sinuhue:

Im not saying it always does or making it illegal DOES stop it, but people are naive. They dont know what they get themselves into. Does it being illegal stop this? no. Does it lower the amount of people affect. Hell yes.

Now... who came over and founded the US? Christians.. yes...

Nope. Sue your teachers if they really told you that.

[qupwho created the laws.... yes thats right.. chritians.....[/quote]

Again: nope. Though even if it would be a yes.. do you think a Christian is incapable of writing laws that are religion neutral ?

what does our most sacred document hold most in common with? Oh yes.. the beliefs of chritianity.... Take a good look at both.

Actually it looks like a mission statement.

STDs are spread by polygamy, and prostitution is polygamy. Look at Africa - how do you think AIDs spread so fast? It's ridiculous to think that you are totally protected with a condem.
1 Prostitution is not polygamy. You're not married to the prostitutes. Marriage costs way more money and isn't nearly as fun.

2 AIDS spreads quickly in Africa because people have no education and refuse to use a condom. Also because people are afraid to be tested, and lack the resources to get tested anyway. In a developed country condoms and medical screenings would make prostitution as safe as any consentual sex.

3 It's not ridiculous to think you're protected with a condom. It's ridiculous to think that condoms don't protect. Let's face it, those little bastards can't tunnel through latex.

It's not about stopping all polygamy, just the worst type: prostitution. Prostitution is large-scale and readily accessible polygamy, making it much worse then just pre-marital sex.

One problem, though, with stopping the "worst type" of polygamy...it's going to happen anyway, whether it is legal or not. Why not at least be able to put restrictions on it? Why not make it legal so that we can enforce safe ways of managing it...?

And how does its being more accessible make it worse?

this is going to come off really perverted but i did read a erotic story once that talked of legal prostitution. in the story they go into detail about how they have to go through a big screening process and get tested for STD's every 2 weeks. so the question is why is prostitution STILL illegal?

It's not about stopping all polygamy, just the worst type: prostitution. Prostitution is large-scale and readily accessible polygamy, making it much worse then just pre-marital sex.

Prostitution is large scale, easily accesible? I've never even seen a prostitute, despite regularly traveling through one of the most infamously sexual cities in the United States (San Francisco). Pornography, on the other hand, is truly widespread, and is legal. You can hardly walk through the Tenderloin in San Fran without seeing a porn store or strip club every other storefront.

Now... who came over and founded the US? Christians.. yes...
No. Most of the more famous Founding Fathers were Deists.
who created the laws.... yes thats right.. chritians.....
See above.
On top of that, even if they were all Christians, what would make it so that they would enforce Christianity? They certainly didn't intend to do so.
what does our most sacred document hold most in common with? Oh yes.. the beliefs of chritianity.... Take a good look at both.
I don't see it. One of the most basic bits of Christianity states that one most hold the Lord Jehovah(or whatever you want to call Him) above all else, and I don't see that in the Constitution. I don't see laws upholding the holiness of the Sabbath day. I don't see laws against coveting one's neighbor's possessions.

Then why did you post at all?
Just to let the person I responded to know how I regard his/her opinion.

Prostitution inside of the United States is illegal, though I believe it should be legalized. If someone wants the choice to go out and bang something without any kind of emotion attached to it, go ahead. Though I believe it should be controlled by the govt. in some way. In close relation to this, abortion and welfare for those people knocked up taken care of by the govt. as well, meaning the offspring taken and made into soldiers. As badly as this country is obsessed with sex, our army would easily overrun the world in no time, lol.


Seriously though, if someone is that gung-ho about having sex without consequence let him do it, but don't give him any kind of sympathy if he messes up his life because of it.

Tards + :sniper: = :D

1 Prostitution is not polygamy. You're not married to the prostitutes. Marriage costs way more money and isn't nearly as fun.

2 AIDS spreads quickly in Africa because people have no education and refuse to use a condom. Also because people are afraid to be tested, and lack the resources to get tested anyway. In a developed country condoms and medical screenings would make prostitution as safe as any consentual sex.

3 It's not ridiculous to think you're protected with a condom. It's ridiculous to think that condoms don't protect. Let's face it, those little bastards can't tunnel through latex.

1. Sex with mutliple partners = polygamy.

2. If they had unprotected sex with a single partner the problem wouldn't be so bad.

3. Condems don't always work, and anyone who thinks otherwise isn't ready to have sex.

One problem, though, with stopping the "worst type" of polygamy...it's going to happen anyway, whether it is legal or not. Why not at least be able to put restrictions on it? Why not make it legal so that we can enforce safe ways of managing it...?

And how does its being more accessible make it worse?
There's not as much if its illegal. If its more accessible then it will happen more, thus making the problem worse.

Prostitution is large scale, easily accesible? I've never even seen a prostitute, despite regularly traveling through one of the most infamously sexual cities in the United States (San Francisco). Pornography, on the other hand, is truly widespread, and is legal. You can hardly walk through the Tenderloin in San Fran without seeing a porn store or strip club every other storefront.
You've been searching at the wrong place and the wrong time.

It's not about stopping all polygamy, just the worst type: prostitution. Prostitution is large-scale and readily accessible polygamy, making it much worse then just pre-marital sex.
First of all, if you're going to use a word use it right. Polygamy is marriage to more than one woman.

Second, all pre marital sex is wide spread and readily available. Anybody who's not a complete slob can get laid for free at most bars and clubs.

You've been searching at the wrong place and the wrong time.

It's not widespread and is most definitely not easily accesible if one must search for it at all.

I haven't the patience to read all the responses to this thread, so maybe this has already been said:

Prostitution is illegal because the Church wants more followers. Thats the same reason the Catholic Church forbids birth control.

As far as the Whore-Houses in Nevada, I wouldn't sleep with those women if THEY paid ME. Blech.

I say make prostitution legal and pimping punishable with 25 to life. Just making prostitution legal won't eliminate the pimps, unfortunatley.

It's not about stopping all polygamy, just the worst type: prostitution. Prostitution is large-scale and readily accessible polygamy, making it much worse then just pre-marital sex.
Well, considering that prostitution has been illegal for centuries in most countries, and it hasn't gone away, perhaps continuing to make it illegal isn't going to stop it? If legalising it means that more safety precautions to prevent STDs and the abuse of prostitutes, shouldn't we take the better bath, rather than continuing with a useless practice?

There's not as much if its illegal. If its more accessible then it will happen more, thus making the problem worse.

What do you mean, there's not as much? You just said it is easily accessible.

But, morally, is it worse? Really, think about it; animal abuse occurs much more often than child abuse, statistically, but...is it worse?
This coming from a vegetarian, too.

Isn't it interesting that making prostitution illegal has had little or no effect on the spread of sexually transmitted diseases? Go research the origins of beauty marks. Syphillis, hmm?

Um... everyone here is talking about the medical and monitary issues with prostitution, but what about emotional issues?

Sex is a very emotional thing for a large majority of people, and if prostitution was legal, well, it can cause mental issues, and people losing respect for the act of sex.

My guess is that most of you people for prostitution have no respect for sex.What the hell are you talking about? Prostitution is illegal and it happens. If it was legal it would still happen. Saying that it should be legal is not being "for prostitution", but I don't expect you to understand this. And whatever problems that result from the voluntary actions of adults are the concern of the adults involved.

Oh yea, and whoever it was that was arguing that the US was NOT founded on christian beliefs.... :headbang:...

...Take a HIGH SCHOOL History classYou took a history class in high school and you think that means you know history?

1. Sex with mutliple partners = polygamy.

2. If they had unprotected sex with a single partner the problem wouldn't be so bad.

3. Condems don't always work, and anyone who thinks otherwise isn't ready to have sex.


There's not as much if its illegal. If its more accessible then it will happen more, thus making the problem worse.


You've been searching at the wrong place and the wrong time.
1 http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=polygamy Dude, polygamy is defined as plural marriage. Just admit you were wrong already. Oh, wait, I forgot you were a christian. Admitting you were wrong is beyond you.

2 A single partner isn't realistic for many people. Why should everyone have to conform to your vision of what life should be like?

3 Condoms work in almost every situation if used correctly. Nothing in life is 100%. Crossing a busy street isn't always safe, and usually not as much fun as sex.

Sinuhue:

Im not saying it always does or making it illegal DOES stop it, but people are naive. They dont know what they get themselves into. Does it being illegal stop this? no. Does it lower the amount of people affect. Hell yes.
I disagree. Yes, many people have sex before they are ready. Many people have little respect for sex or for their partners, but I do not think this issue has much to do with prostitution rather than underlying social attitudes. Prostitutes who are not forced into the profession know what they are getting into. People who purchase the services of a prostitute probably know what they are getting into. If this is not true in both cases all the time, what can we really do about it? Making prostitution illegal does not affect the issue. You assume more people will become and utilize the service of prostitutes if it is made legal. If it was legal, would YOU go to a prositute? I know I wouldn't. I doubt you could find any proof that would link the legalisation of prostitution with and increase in the kind of thoughtless sex that has adverse affects on people's mental conditions.

Yes, I would. It is immoral. The sin of adultery is worse than the sin of stealing. while both are wrong.

So I can take all your money as long as I don't sleep with your spouse?

would you make promiscuity illegal too? after all it spreads disease, demeans sex and makes people crazy too.
is it the sex or the getting paid for it that is bugging you?

I figure people get way too uptight about stuff like this. I figure anything should be legal as long as it isn't causing intentional harm to other people, and the people involved willfully consent to it. If a drugged out stoner does a swan dive onto someone, well, that's life, shit happens, and that's what insurance is for. Besides, if someone is that deep into something like drugs, the legality of it probably wouldn't effect their use of it. Prohibition certainly didn't stop drinking or rid the world of alcoholics...

Charging money for services is generally legal. Having consentual adult sex is legal. Why is the combination of the two illegal? Why is it considered immoral by so many people?
It is legal. Go to Reno.

Obviously, it's just a morality problem.

It is legal. Go to Reno.
Why the heck would you send them to Reno? It's illegal within the city boundries, as it is within the boundries of Washoe County, Carson City, and Las Vegas. No, you want Moundhouse, Nevada for the cat houses.

As someone who is from Nevada, and has lived within walking distance of a cat house, let me tell you a few things.

For the legal brothels of Nevada, the ONLY industry more regulated in Nevada is gambling, barely. The girls, while working, are not allowed outside the compound. They must be checked once a week for STDs. If, when on their time off (usually they work week long shifts where they live at the house, then two or so days off), they turn tricks and are arrested, it will go harder for them before the judge.

Those under the age of 21 are not allowed in most cat houses (alcohol rules) if it's a dry house, 18, and yes, they do check IDs. The john has to wear a condom at all times and show he is free from STDs (usually done by a small check in the peter pan before the transaction). The girls are monitoried at all times by the owner, and of course the county and state drops in pretty randomly to make sure everything is going right. Any infraction results in the automatic closure of the house.

This is not wild and free.

As for morals, well, Nevada's a weird state as is (we like it that way), but I can honestly say that most of my friends and myself never really cared about those houses, although we all knew about them. If anything, like gorwing up with the casinos, it taught us that there are better ways to blow our money and that it isn't all THAT special.

Also, if you want to lose your virginity, DON'T go to one of the ranches!

1 http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=polygamy Dude, polygamy is defined as plural marriage. Just admit you were wrong already. Oh, wait, I forgot you were a christian. Admitting you were wrong is beyond you.

2 A single partner isn't realistic for many people. Why should everyone have to conform to your vision of what life should be like?

3 Condoms work in almost every situation if used correctly. Nothing in life is 100%. Crossing a busy street isn't always safe, and usually not as much fun as sex.
1. Did you stop to think that maybe I've been offline and was unable to respond? I see you've started with the flaming. "Admitting you're wrong is beyond you" - people like you give athiests a bad name. Grow up. I admit I'm wrong, but you know what I mean by polygamy - sex with multiple partners. No need to start flaming about it.

2. Ermm, look around you?

3. Then why are there STDs?

This is not a moral issue, so why do you have to bring it up? I'm trying to keep religion out of it.

Prostitution inside of the United States is illegal, though I believe it should be legalized. If someone wants the choice to go out and bang something without any kind of emotion attached to it, go ahead. Though I believe it should be controlled by the govt. in some way. In close relation to this, abortion and welfare for those people knocked up taken care of by the govt. as well, meaning the offspring taken and made into soldiers. As badly as this country is obsessed with sex, our army would easily overrun the world in no time, lol.


Prostitution is perfectly legal in the US. It just isn't legal in most US states and cities and it is illegal to take someone across state lines for the purposes of prostitution.

to expand on this issue why is prostitution illegal but pornography (which is just prostitution + a camera) is legal?

to expand on this issue why is prostitution illegal but pornography (which is just prostitution + a camera) is legal?
The answer is simple: people are idiots.

Charging money for services is generally legal. Having consentual adult sex is legal. Why is the combination of the two illegal? Why is it considered immoral by so many people?
Prostitution degrades women, particularly those at or below the poverty level and those with serious psychological problems. It most definitely is not a "victimless crime."

Prostitutes would need training and would have to pass a physical/health screening. Upon passing,take a written test, followed by a field test, where a judge would pass or fail them based on the test score and performance.
They would then be issued a photo license good for a year. They would also have to obtain a medallion.
They would get a federal tax id #. There would be random drug testing/blood & urine screening as well as regular physicals by the board of health.
The workplace would be in a spa type atmosphere where they had the use of a private room (similar to beauticians in beaty parlors with chairs, etc..).
They could take appoinments or walk-ins. They could issue frequent customer cards where the 12th visit is on the house.

Prostitutes would need training and would have to pass a physical/health screening. Upon passing,take a written test, followed by a field test, where a judge would pass or fail them based on the test score and performance.
They would then be issued a photo license good for a year. They would also have to obtain a medallion.
They would get a federal tax id #. There would be random drug testing/blood & urine screening as well as regular physicals by the board of health.
The workplace would be in a spa type atmosphere where they had the use of a private room (similar to beauticians in beaty parlors with chairs, etc..).
They could take appoinments or walk-ins. They could issue frequent customer cards where the 12th visit is on the house.
Sure sounds like an awful lot of trouble to go to just to be poked! :D

BTW ... how does one get one of those "Judge" jobs for field testing prostitutes? :D

Prostitutes would need training and would have to pass a physical/health screening. Upon passing,take a written test, followed by a field test, where a judge would pass or fail them based on the test score and performance.
They would then be issued a photo license good for a year. They would also have to obtain a medallion.
They would get a federal tax id #. There would be random drug testing/blood & urine screening as well as regular physicals by the board of health.
The workplace would be in a spa type atmosphere where they had the use of a private room (similar to beauticians in beaty parlors with chairs, etc..).
They could take appoinments or walk-ins. They could issue frequent customer cards where the 12th visit is on the house.

these women and men opperate outside the law already, what makes you think they're going to submit to your testing and pay taxes?

these women and men opperate outside the law already, what makes you think they're going to submit to your testing and pay taxes?

Because taxes may be high, but court costs are more expensive. Legalization would move illegal prostitution out of the criminal courts and into the corporate ones. :)

Which would go a long way to proving my theory: Businessmen are prostitutes too. :)

Which would go a long way to proving my theory: Businessmen are prostitutes too. :)

except for the not having sex for money part

Because taxes may be high, but court costs are more expensive. Legalization would move illegal prostitution out of the criminal courts and into the corporate ones. :)

Which would go a long way to proving my theory: Businessmen are prostitutes too. :)
By this rather tortured defintion, virtually everyone, except perhaps hermits, is a prostitute.

LG ... you whore! :D

BTW ... how does one get one of those "Judge" jobs for field testing prostitutes? :D


I'm thinking they'd have to be a political appointee.

these women and men opperate outside the law already, what makes you think they're going to submit to your testing and pay taxes?


I'm sorry I didnt say I was being a little sarcastic.

Prostitution degrades women, particularly those at or below the poverty level and those with serious psychological problems. It most definitely is not a "victimless crime."


Good god, some common sense on NS. Stop with that.

these women and men opperate outside the law already, what makes you think they're going to submit to your testing and pay taxes?

For the same reason many municipalities are imposing taxes on illegal drugs. Would you rather be caught with something that's very illegal, or not so much illegal? Remember, the difference can be counted in years.

By the way, Al Capone was imprisoned for tax fraud. The government decided that despite the illegality of his income, it was still taxable. There's precedent for government taxation on illegal activities.

Good god, some common sense on NS. Stop with that.
Ooops! Sorry about that! I must have taken leave of my nonsenses. :(

Discover magazine did a article last year about AIDS in Africa. The main focus of it was that Africa's AIDS problem was caused by most/great many of people having several partners. As in one man may have relationships with 3 or 4 women, and each of those women having a handful of lovers themselves. So when one person contract the disease in a short time so deas every one else in the web. That plus a lack of testing and condoms.

I read about half of the thread so if I missed anything I'm sorry, but has anyone given a reason for protitution being illegal that didn't relate to the bible or some such?

Prostitution degrades women, particularly those at or below the poverty level and those with serious psychological problems. It most definitely is not a "victimless crime."

How? How does it degrade women? How does income play into the equation other that the fact that poverty will make you risk more than you might otherwise? How does giving women with little money and little upward mobility a vialble income degrade them? As a mother I know I'd do whatever I needed to feed and clothe my child. As a woman lucky enough to have legally employable skills I don't want to deny an income to other women. And people with serious psychological problems have always existed. They degrade themselves, it's sad but shall we all stop dating and marrying because some women (and men) continually choose people who are wrong for them?

to expand on this issue why is prostitution illegal but pornography (which is just prostitution + a camera) is legal?

With prostitution you are paying someone to have sex. With pornography you are paying someone to model or act. The sex is irrevelant.

By this rather tortured defintion, virtually everyone, except perhaps hermits, is a prostitute.

LG ... you whore! :D

And? :D

How? How does it degrade women? How does income play into the equation other that the fact that poverty will make you risk more than you might otherwise? How does giving women with little money and little upward mobility a vialble income degrade them? As a mother I know I'd do whatever I needed to feed and clothe my child. As a woman lucky enough to have legally employable skills I don't want to deny an income to other women. And people with serious psychological problems have always existed. They degrade themselves, it's sad but shall we all stop dating and marrying because some women (and men) continually choose people who are wrong for them?

So if your kids were starving you would happily let me finger your butthole for twenty dollars? And you wouldn't find it degrading?

Didn't think so.

these women and men opperate outside the law already, what makes you think they're going to submit to your testing and pay taxes?
They do so in Nevada, willingly. Well, except the pay taxes part, but that's more to do with a very weird loophole in the Nevada taxcode that saw the working girls come into the state legislature this year to demand to pay taxes and the legislators deny them the opertunity.

See? Told you Nevada is weird.

And? :D

You can't be a whore, because you do it for free. :)

I wonder if anyone has gotten away with opening a brothel under the guise of "make your own porn" sorta like paint your own pottery. You get a room with a camera and half an hour to create. Then you get a video tape to take home and promptly destroy. All for only $200.

So if your kids were starving you would happily let me finger your butthole for twenty dollars? And you wouldn't find it degrading?

Didn't think so.
Hmm, I'd try for more but money is money. I'd feel a hell of a lot worse for having to engage in something dangerous and with such a low wage. And far more degraded when I do something against my will. If prostitution is legal I could make that choice.

I have to say it is immoral and discusting and something so nasty that it should not be exposed to children. Think of the STD's also.

I totally agree with you.

Hmm, I'd try for more but money is money. I'd feel a hell of a lot worse for having to engage in something dangerous and with such a low wage. And far more degraded when I do something against my will. If prostitution is legal I could make that choice.

But you would be degraded, however.

And that's the point of these laws, to protect the weak from abuse by the strong. To argue otherwise is similar to saying that a rape victim "might as well lie back and enjoy it".

But you would be degraded, however.

And that's the point of these laws, to protect the weak from abuse by the strong. To argue otherwise is similar to saying that a rape victim "might as well lie back and enjoy it".

Are you going to tell me that working in a fast food joint doesn't make some people feel degraded? I once worked in a diner and had to wear a pink satin bow-tie. I know in the big scheme of thing that bow-tie was nothing compared rape and molestation or even having one's house broken into. However everytime I saw some one I knew at work I felt shame. I did however choose to work there. A rape victim isn't given a choose (call me captain obvious). If a person chooses to have sex for money they can choose to quit as well. Always assuming there is no pimp to beat them.

On a side note why isn't equally degrading to men?

And that's the point of these laws, to protect the weak from abuse by the strong. To argue otherwise is similar to saying that a rape victim "might as well lie back and enjoy it".
Can't speak for them of course, but every interview I've read with the legal working girls in Nevada has them almost always stating that they enjoy their jobs and do not feel degraded at all.

I've also heard how a number of them were working for money for college, though I cannot confirm that one.

You can't be a whore, because you do it for free. :)

I've been with enough women to know: It's never free. :p

It really is important that prostitutes get a union. It would help society if the government could regulate it all and make sure that people under, say, 18 cant get into prostitution. Sure, prostitutes may feel degraded but I think it would mainly be by the fact that they have had to sink quite low just to make their way in the world, not by what they would be asked to do.
And what about the men who have to use prostitutes? They would feel degraded by the fact that they have to pay and use an illegal 'service' to make themselves happy.
If it became a bit more socailly acceptable and legal the entire business would be a lot safer and the people involved would feel a bit better about the whole thing.

And? :D
ROFLAMO! Well, you're nothing if not honest! :D

You can't be a whore, because you do it for free. :)
Um ... don't be too sure about that! I once asked LG out and he told me that would be ok, if I would pay for everything and give him a "stipend" of $100.00! :D

Are you going to tell me that working in a fast food joint doesn't make some people feel degraded? I once worked in a diner and had to wear a pink satin bow-tie. I know in the big scheme of thing that bow-tie was nothing compared rape and molestation or even having one's house broken into. However everytime I saw some one I knew at work I felt shame. I did however choose to work there. A rape victim isn't given a choose (call me captain obvious). If a person chooses to have sex for money they can choose to quit as well. Always assuming there is no pimp to beat them.

On a side note why isn't equally degrading to men?

Well I think the original hypothetical had you doing this to feed your kids and thus fend off their imminent starvation. I consider that abrogating actual consent, and therefore a type of rape. (In other words, obtaining your consent to a sexual act through coercion).

Somehow, I find wearing a pink bow-tie qualitatively different to having sex with someone you dislike and would rather not have sex with, and are doing so because you have to feed your children.

And yah, it is degrading to men too. (Even the ancient greeks recognized this by denying male prostitutes the vote).

I've been with enough women to know: It's never free. :p
Three general rules of life:

1. Nothing is ever free

2. Nothing ever truly goes away

3. Nothing will make people happy. ( They have to decide to be happy. )

Um ... don't be too sure about that! I once asked LG out and he told me that would be ok, if I would pay for everything and give him a "stipend" of $100.00! :D


You miss my point sir. From what I gather about you, if someone suggested a funny prank involving testicles and a high voltage source, you would probably agree to be the guinea pig without remuneration.

Making you more of a ..... than a whore.

Three general rules of life:

1. Nothing is ever free

2. Nothing ever truly goes away

3. Nothing will make people happy. ( They have to decide to be happy. )

Ex's go away. You just have to know how to deal with it.

How? How does it degrade women? How does income play into the equation other that the fact that poverty will make you risk more than you might otherwise? How does giving women with little money and little upward mobility a vialble income degrade them? As a mother I know I'd do whatever I needed to feed and clothe my child. As a woman lucky enough to have legally employable skills I don't want to deny an income to other women. And people with serious psychological problems have always existed. They degrade themselves, it's sad but shall we all stop dating and marrying because some women (and men) continually choose people who are wrong for them?
So are you suggesting legalizing it then?

If so, the same argument applies for prostitution as for legalization of drugs. Legalization of something gives it a certain cache. It is, in effect, society saying that it's ok to do this thing ( whatever it may be ).

It's already difficult enough to raise children in a permissive society, without having your own government tell your children that something you dispise is ok for them to do.

As a father of five, three of whom are daughters, and the grandfather of seven, two of whom are grand daughters, I don't need the government telling them that something I abhor is "ok."

You miss my point sir. From what I gather about you, if someone suggested a funny prank involving testicles and a high voltage source, you would probably agree to be the guinea pig without remuneration.

Making you more of a ..... than a whore.
LOL! You don't know me vwey well, do you? :D

Ex's go away. You just have to know how to deal with it.
Not if you helped them raise five children who are now all grown with lots of grandchildren. And especially not if they're on both your medical and life insurance. :rolleyes:

Not if you helped them raise five children who are now all grown with lots of grandchildren. And especially not if they're on both your medical and life insurance. :rolleyes:

Why is that a problem though. Can't people be civil anymore.

Why is that a problem though. Can't people be civil anymore.
I didn't say it was a "problem" for the rest of the family, just for me. And we're very civil to each other, especially when other family members are around. We actually care very much about what happens to each other, we just can't live together.

I didn't say it was a "problem" for the rest of the family, just for me. And we're very civil to each other, especially when other family members are around. We actually care very much about what happens to each other, we just can't live together.

Hmm, so you would like to get back together with her then? I understand that.

Edit: And I don't mean that in a sarky way at all.

Hmm, so you would like to get back together with her then? I understand that.
A forlorn hope at best, and highly unlikely.

Well I think the original hypothetical had you doing this to feed your kids and thus fend off their imminent starvation. I consider that abrogating actual consent, and therefore a type of rape. (In other words, obtaining your consent to a sexual act through coercion).

Somehow, I find wearing a pink bow-tie qualitatively different to having sex with someone you dislike and would rather not have sex with, and are doing so because you have to feed your children.

And yah, it is degrading to men too. (Even the ancient greeks recognized this by denying male prostitutes the vote).

Working in that diner was to feed my child, yea I had the choice to not work. Every one has that choice. But like most people I decided that working and not starving was the better option. A prostituted has the same choice to make. She/he can find employment else where. You seem to equate prostitution with slavery. I understand that slave are often forced into sex but they are not the same. I'm not advocating any force. So as far as having sex with some one you dislike and would rather not have sex with, don't do it. If on the other hand you can accept those conditions by all means. I have not yet met a person who enjoyed everything about their job. I have met people who will endure some aspect of their work because another aspect made it worth while. Many do so to support themselves and their families. Yes I know that bow-tie was small time and said as much myself.

A forlorn hope at best, and highly unlikely.

Aye, but an understandable one. I am sorry, I know what unrequited love is like. :(

So are you suggesting legalizing it then?

If so, the same argument applies for prostitution as for legalization of drugs. Legalization of something gives it a certain cache. It is, in effect, society saying that it's ok to do this thing ( whatever it may be ).

It's already difficult enough to raise children in a permissive society, without having your own government tell your children that something you dispise is ok for them to do.

As a father of five, three of whom are daughters, and the grandfather of seven, two of whom are grand daughters, I don't need the government telling them that something I abhor is "ok."

Assume we are not talking about you, but about a neonazi or Ku Klux Klan member. Also assume we are not talking about prostitution, but about considering Jews and black skinned people to be just as human as yourself.
Now read your post again. Would you agree it is morally right for the government to tell your children that something that neonazi abhors is ok for them to do ?
If so, then why can do that in one case but not in the other ? Both things are moral issues. Both are equally abhorred. Both abhorrances have little to none rational basis. So where lies the distinguishing difference ?
If not, then I would like to know what you think the function of a society is ;)

Well since you ask about the US, it used to be legal until the feminists put a stop to it. Religion (especially Christianity) tends to be ambivalent about it, St. Augstine for instance considered brothels as improtant a part of a well functioning city as sewers. In the US it was the Women's Associations of the late 19th and early 20th centuries which really killed legal prostitution, they seemed to feel it degraded women and drove them use drugs and alcohol and was all in all a bad thing which had to made illegal. As for the US constitution and founding fathers, in their time prostituion was legal so make what you will of that. As for STDs, well they are a problem and as far back as the 16th century (at least) various jurisdcitions have come up with systems for inspecting and certifying prostitutes disease free although I cannot think of a statuatory system which has ever been put in place to insure that the customers are disease free. Prostitution by the way is mentioned several times in the Christian bible, and apparently while considered a somewhat degrading profession was not outright banned (except for the daughters of priests), as I recall one of the prophets, Ezexekial?, was even comanded by G*d to marry a prostitute.

Nope it was not the religous who made prostituion illegal, it was the socally active women who did it, learn some history.

So are you suggesting legalizing it then?

If so, the same argument applies for prostitution as for legalization of drugs. Legalization of something gives it a certain cache. It is, in effect, society saying that it's ok to do this thing ( whatever it may be ).

It's already difficult enough to raise children in a permissive society, without having your own government tell your children that something you dispise is ok for them to do.

As a father of five, three of whom are daughters, and the grandfather of seven, two of whom are grand daughters, I don't need the government telling them that something I abhor is "ok."

Isn't a parents job to teach your child what's right from wrong? As far as drugs are concerned did you teach your children not to drink? Ever?
Just because you despise somthing doesn't mean it's wrong. There was a time when i would have been despised for leaving my ex-husband. Never mind that he hit and was sleeping with a woman who looks like a line backer. Certainly he didn't hit me very much and I did marry him for better or worse.

You didn't answer my questions though.

Well since you ask about the US, it used to be legal until the feminists put a stop to it. Religion (especially Christianity) tends to be ambivalent about it, St. Augstine for instance considered brothels as improtant a part of a well functioning city as sewers. In the US it was the Women's Associations of the late 19th and early 20th centuries which really killed legal prostitution, they seemed to feel it degraded women and drove them use drugs and alcohol and was all in all a bad thing which had to made illegal. As for the US constitution and founding fathers, in their time prostituion was legal so make what you will of that. As for STDs, well they are a problem and as far back as the 16th century (at least) various jurisdcitions have come up with systems for inspecting and certifying prostitutes disease free although I cannot think of a statuatory system which has ever been put in place to insure that the customers are disease free. Prostitution by the way is mentioned several times in the Christian bible, and apparently while considered a somewhat degrading profession was not outright banned (except for the daughters of priests), as I recall one of the prophets, Ezexekial?, was even comanded by G*d to marry a prostitute.

Nope it was not the religous who made prostituion illegal, it was the socally active women who did it, learn some history.


Are you saying it is a good thing then? I am well aware that it is not illegal under english common law, but that does not make it desirable

After all, the rape laws have changed a bit since then too,....

Are you saying it is a good thing then? I am well aware that it is not illegal under english common law, but that does not make it desirable

After all, the rape laws have changed a bit since then too,....
Nope, I'm make no comment on the desirability of prostituion. I am saying that it was not religion (Christianity) which caused prostituion to be illegal but women's social groups. Femminism and femminists made prostituion illegal, but unless you believe that feminists only attempt to make desirable things illegal than it is hard to go from "feminists made prostituion illegal" to "prostitution is good". Personally I believe that there is nothing inheriently wrong or evil or bad (use whatever word you want) with the concept of prostitution, however prostituion as practiced can be most undesirable, a form of exploitation of unacceptable magnitude, and it seems that the most offensive forms of prostitution are the most common these days.

I guess it's a good thing prostution is illegal in most places, that's where a lot of drug busts come from.

Drugs ought to be legal too. ;)

Oh yea, and whoever it was that was arguing that the US was NOT founded on christian beliefs.... :headbang:...

...Take a HIGH SCHOOL History class

George Washington said it in the Treaty with Tripoli.

Nope, I'm make no comment on the desirability of prostituion. I am saying that it was not religion (Christianity) which caused prostituion to be illegal but women's social groups. Femminism and femminists made prostituion illegal, but unless you believe that feminists only attempt to make desirable things illegal than it is hard to go from "feminists made prostituion illegal" to "prostitution is good". Personally I believe that there is nothing inheriently wrong or evil or bad (use whatever word you want) with the concept of prostitution, however prostituion as practiced can be most undesirable, a form of exploitation of unacceptable magnitude, and it seems that the most offensive forms of prostitution are the most common these days.


Fair enough.

Though I think it is generally undesirable because it makes bright lines blurry.

If prostitution is not so bad, how then can you logically defend many date rape statutes?

(I assume you get the point).

Squi
If your comment was aimed at me I'd like to clarify that I meant to ask if anyone on this thread had given reasons aside from religion. I'm well enough aware of the info you gave. But I was looking for reasons not involving religion because I'm not at all conviced that God says no is a valid reason. At the very least not when discussing law.

Selling is legal. Fucking is legal. Why isn't selling fucking legal?


Seriously, though, I recommend a read through the book Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do: The Absurdity of Consensual Crimes in a Free Society by Peter MacWilliams. The US could balance the budget on the backs of whores, johns, junkies and pushers, but no -- "think of the children." :rolleyes:

If prostitution is not so bad, how then can you logically defend many date rape statutes?


Well, there's no money changing hands, for one. This "blurry" line gets re-drawn with legalization. Contracts, monitoring, facilities, what have you. The state seems okay with running liquor stores, and has for several decades. This is just another in an endless series of morality judgements that have next to no place in federal legislation. What the hell is Amendment 10 for if not to let the states decide what tehy want happening in their borders? Unless, of course, you've got a 15-year vegetable about to be released from her misery by a husband who knew her wishes best. Then, of course, we let Congress in. So until whores start gorking out, prostitution will never be legal.

Hmmmm. There's logic in this post, but I'm pretty sure you have to want to see it.

Charging money for services is generally legal. Having consentual adult sex is legal. Why is the combination of the two illegal? Why is it considered immoral by so many people?

I think it's because pimps contribute greatly to both political parties under the table, ensuring their monopoly on the sex market.

Squi
If your commit was aimed at me I'd like to clarify that I meant to ask if anyone on this thread had given reasons aside from religion. I'm well enough aware of the info you gave. But I was looking for reasons not involving religion because I'm not at all conviced that God says no is a valid reason. At the very least not when discussing law.It wasn't, it was adressed at those who were arguing that religions (christianity) were responsible for prostitution being illegal, in fact it is feminists who are responsible. They presented a variety of reasons for making the practice illegal, ranging from STDs to destroying marriages - since I don't agree with their basic premises, I am not familiar enough with those reasons to argue them.

And the Christian G*d actually says "yes" to prostitution, but that does not make it a valid reason for legalizing prostitution when discusing law either, merely because a few thousand years ago prostitution was an acceptable practice does not mean we have to keep on allowing prostitution today. The criminalization of prostitution is really a fairly modern phenomenom in the western world, unheard of before the reformation and rare up until the 19th and 20th centuries. I'm not sure if it is an example of social progress or a dead-end in the course of social eveolution, but it is a modern concept and should be looked at in that context for the justifications, instead of as the artifact of a social code written a few millenia for the jews.

Another interesting thread that seems to be about a mainly American problem.

Prostitution is legal in several European states and it is good that it is. It de-criminalizes a part of the population which does not actually engage in anything harmful, it puts prositutes under the control of the government, which checks their health status, and it gives prostitutes access to state endorsed pension plans and health insurance. In return they pay taxes.

However, illegal prostitution still exists in those countries, because there are people (yep, men do it, too) who desperately need money (e.g. drug addicts) but would not be allowed to become "official" prostitutes, as they wouldn't pass helath tests, are underage etc. And then there are customers who want services performed a "licensed" prostitute wouldn't do, or like underage prostitutes ...

So is the fact that there is still illegal prostitution with all its side effects (sex with minors, dug use/traffiking, spreading of disease, pimps, violence) a counter argument against legal prostitution?

No! Because you will always have illegal prostitution (I bet there's not one town on earth without a prostitute, legal or illegal). But by decriminalizing it, you can take a part of society away from the ill side effects and put them in a safer environment.

Glad I live in Europe :D

Charging money for services is generally legal. Having consentual adult sex is legal. Why is the combination of the two illegal? Why is it considered immoral by so many people?

A very good question. I suppose sex is supposed to be 'sacred'! Well back in the days it was, and selling parts of your body for money is well a little gross and a tad bit unhealthy. Its legal in Holland(what isn't?), and their are some good regulations covering it, but I'm not sure it should be made legal just cos its so popular. Kinda similar to murder, lots of ppl do, so should their be noncombatant rules of engagement?

So are you suggesting legalizing it then?

If so, the same argument applies for prostitution as for legalization of drugs. Legalization of something gives it a certain cache. It is, in effect, society saying that it's ok to do this thing ( whatever it may be ).

It's already difficult enough to raise children in a permissive society, without having your own government tell your children that something you dispise is ok for them to do.

As a father of five, three of whom are daughters, and the grandfather of seven, two of whom are grand daughters, I don't need the government telling them that something I abhor is "ok."
Guess what? Its your and the mothers children responsibility to teach them your morals. The governments legal stance on some issues will always be controversial, but basing laws on making some guys education of his kids and grandkids easier is not very high on the priority list, really. What shines through your argument is pure egoism and you base your argumentation on the law confirming to your morals.
What about those grandfathers who want prostitution legalized? The government makes it very hard for them to teach their morals to their offspring. Lousy argument, right?

however prostituion as practiced can be most undesirable, a form of exploitation of unacceptable magnitude, and it seems that the most offensive forms of prostitution are the most common these days.

Because the laws are as they are. You can't remove all prostitution by making a law. You can (and do) however prevent the nicer forms, that are dependent on nice locales and good public relations. The current ban is IMO equivalent to taxing prostitution and giving the money to organized crime.

The reason why prostiution is illegal is the same as the reason why drugs and gay marriage is illegal: Because some politicians want to rule people's morals. All the "reasons" they point to for keeping the ban are effects of said ban.

I believe it is a state, and not a federal, policy. If you want to legalize it work your states. Nevada is the only one I know of which allows it. They seem to have avoided any of the negative social effects that so many claim legal prostitution would bring.

Here is a link from one of the few feminist website which support women's choice;

http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2005/0126almodovar.html

I considered posting a link to a few of the Nevada brothels for an example, but it possibly would violate forum policy. Sufice to say that most of the prostitutes are quite homely. That should be more than enough to protect the virtues of most men... If you want to see for yourself they are not that hard to find.

It is considered immoral because all Christian faiths consider sex outside of marriage to be immoral.

As do I.

It is illegal, because the country was founded upon religious belief. There was only a separation of church and state in that the govt doens't recognize one church over another. But all the laws are based on Christian values.

Unfortunately a lot of these laws have been changing.

Um, no.... If you're referring to the United States of America, you're wrong, the country was not founded on "religious belief", if anything it was founded upon religious liberty. Whoever told you this nation is based on "Christian Values" just commited the sin of bearing false witness. The founders were OPPOSED to the idea of the General Government being used to enforce religious discipline.

Dominionists... pfft.

sorry, didn't mean to exclude anyone, I was just explaining why the US in particular was that way :) There weren't really any non-christians in the Continental Congress. Maybe an atheist (Franklin?) but I don't think so. (He was just more liberal than most)

It is true that many religions consider it to be an abomination.

You really are ignorant aren't you?

Deists:
Thomas Jefferson
Benjamin Franklin
(outside of the congress, also, Thomas Paine and George Washington)

While there were several instrumental religious persons in history, like the First Govenor of Virginia (Patrick Henry, Anglican), they were instrumental in the purpose of tearing down institutional state religions, and accepting non-christian religions as full and equal members.... Drafting religious liberties, and seperating the powers of general government and the church... Madison later took these ideals to the Constitutional Congress, and these ideas became part of the framework our present Bill of Rights.

Most other colonies were founded upon denying the "dominionism" ideas as well. Including Catholic Maryland, and Baptist "Providence Plantation" (Later known as Rhode Island)... And it was to these that Virginia looked when drafting her ideologies.

Only one state stands out vehemently through all parts of its colonial history, as dominionist..... MASSACHUSETTS.... The vile location of those self-named apostate "Puritans", who carried with them from the Old World, all the vile hate and bloodshed that had racked the various faiths for centuries. Isn't it funny, how some of the most self-labled "righteous" christians, commit some of the worst and vile acts? (I'm a christian myself, but I have no sympathy for these apostate dominionists).

To quote Jefferson:

"I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling in religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercizes. This results not only from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment, or free exercize, of religion, but from that also which reserves to the states the powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercize or to assume authority in religious discipline has been delegated to the General Government."

Want to repeat how you can base your "laws" off of Christian morality again? Yes not be in violation of the US Constitution's Bill of Rights in doing so?

In economics:

Indeed, prostitution is a service which costs a private cost and derives um...private "benefit", or 'utility'. However, the SOCIAL costs associated with prostitution is so high that it is far simpler and cheaper to simply outlaw it.

In morality:

PROSTITUTION? LEGALISED? WHICH PLANET ARE WE ON?

In economics:

Indeed, prostitution is a service which costs a private cost and derives um...private "benefit", or 'utility'. However, the SOCIAL costs associated with prostitution is so high that it is far simpler and cheaper to simply outlaw it.

Because it will go away when its illegal, right?


In morality:
PROSTITUTION? LEGALISED? WHICH PLANET ARE WE ON?
Thankfully not on yours.

In economics:

Indeed, prostitution is a service which costs a private cost and derives um...private "benefit", or 'utility'. However, the SOCIAL costs associated with prostitution is so high that it is far simpler and cheaper to simply outlaw it.

In morality:

PROSTITUTION? LEGALISED? WHICH PLANET ARE WE ON?
Um... as I have been saying, we have it in Nevada... don't see a problem with it honestly. Hell, most of the time we don't even notice it.

And we get to print up nice maps with the best cat houses in the state to sell to the tourists, it's a win-win.

Maybe if the women were free agents, it wouldnt be so bad, but I think having a pimp who beats them up and takes half of their money would suck. They should start a hookers union or something.

If it were legal, and a legitimate business, it could be regulated. The pimp derives his power because of the secrecy involved in illegitimate activity.

I propose a toast to celebrate diverse world cultures.

*shakes head and sighs*

Legalisation of prostitution would provoke a firestorm over here. *chuckles*

In economics:

Indeed, prostitution is a service which costs a private cost and derives um...private "benefit", or 'utility'. However, the SOCIAL costs associated with prostitution is so high that it is far simpler and cheaper to simply outlaw it.

In morality:

PROSTITUTION? LEGALISED? WHICH PLANET ARE WE ON?

What social costs? I remember a conversation one winter in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, with some hookers I used to know. They were upset that business was bad - especially in the summer - because so many young girls were just "giving it away" and "willing to do anything and everything".

Morality? What planet are you on?

People have sex - it's a fact of life. Unmarried people have a lot of sex. Married people have a lot of sex - and not just within marriage.

You're probably one of those people who were shocked by the original Kinsey report, and its findings about cheating and adultery.

Prostitution is legalised here (Australia), but only in licensed brothels. Oddly enough, this has barely effected the numbers of illegal "street walkers".

You really are ignorant aren't you?

Deists:
Thomas Jefferson
Benjamin Franklin
(outside of the congress, also, Thomas Paine and George Washington)

While there were several instrumental religious persons in history, like the First Govenor of Virginia (Patrick Henry, Anglican), they were instrumental in the purpose of tearing down institutional state religions, and accepting non-christian religions as full and equal members.... Drafting religious liberties, and seperating the powers of general government and the church... Madison later took these ideals to the Constitutional Congress, and these ideas became part of the framework our present Bill of Rights.

Most other colonies were founded upon denying the "dominionism" ideas as well. Including Catholic Maryland, and Baptist "Providence Plantation" (Later known as Rhode Island)... And it was to these that Virginia looked when drafting her ideologies.

Only one state stands out vehemently through all parts of its colonial history, as dominionist..... MASSACHUSETTS.... The vile location of those self-named apostate "Puritans", who carried with them from the Old World, all the vile hate and bloodshed that had racked the various faiths for centuries. Isn't it funny, how some of the most self-labled "righteous" christians, commit some of the worst and vile acts? (I'm a christian myself, but I have no sympathy for these apostate dominionists).

To quote Jefferson:

"I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling in religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercizes. This results not only from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment, or free exercize, of religion, but from that also which reserves to the states the powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercize or to assume authority in religious discipline has been delegated to the General Government."

Want to repeat how you can base your "laws" off of Christian morality again? Yes not be in violation of the US Constitution's Bill of Rights in doing so?

I agree with everything except the comment about Massachusetts. While they have done their dirt, some of the people who attended the Continental Congress and helped to craft the Constitution were from Massachusetts. John Adams in fact built religious tolerance into the Massachusetts state Constitution.

Social costs of prostitution include increased family tension, which may lead to divorce and neglected teens, which some will grow to erodents of social solidarity. In Hong Kong this is a very serious problem, and wasting tax dollars into temporary measures.

Family is the most basic unit of human grouping. If that fundamental unit is corrupted, we can forget about all the other social units.

Also, STDs spread far easier with prostitution. It's easy in the developed world to say: oh, use protection, but in the developing world, many innocent wives are falling prey to STDs because their husbands are seeking sex from prostitutes. This, of course, leads to increased spending of healthcare, and thus less money for them to develop their economy.

That's social cost.

One word: Religion

Yep.

Social costs of prostitution include increased family tension, which may lead to divorce and neglected teens, which some will grow to erodents of social solidarity. In Hong Kong this is a very serious problem, and wasting tax dollars into temporary measures.

Family is the most basic unit of human grouping. If that fundamental unit is corrupted, we can forget about all the other social units.

Also, STDs spread far easier with prostitution. It's easy in the developed world to say: oh, use protection, but in the developing world, many innocent wives are falling prey to STDs because their husbands are seeking sex from prostitutes. This, of course, leads to increased spending of healthcare, and thus less money for them to develop their economy.

That's social cost.


You can't legislate morality.

Case in point: You can go to Myrtle Beach this summer, and unless you smell bad and are stomp down ugly and a complete asshole, you can find a young woman who will do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING for FREE.

That's right! She's not a prostitute! Perfectly legal for you and her to have sex until you pass out!

The hookers there are in peril of being run out of business - not by laws, but by young women who, in the hooker's terms, are "just giving it away".

I don't see any laws against free sex, do you?

One word: Religion

That's not necessarily true.
And I only say that because you don't have to be religious to have morals.
There are plenty of non-religious people who have have morals and don't believe in prostitution.

I know that many can argue with me here...
But, if you do, then you are also arguing with the fact that I say that non-religious people have morals. :p

You can't legislate morality.

Case in point: You can go to Myrtle Beach this summer, and unless you smell bad and are stomp down ugly and a complete asshole, you can find a young woman who will do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING for FREE.

That's right! She's not a prostitute! Perfectly legal for you and her to have sex until you pass out!

The hookers there are in peril of being run out of business - not by laws, but by young women who, in the hooker's terms, are "just giving it away".

I don't see any laws against free sex, do you?

But there are CONSEQUENCES to free sex! What if I have a family?

There are consequences to EVERYTHING...

There are consequences to EVERYTHING...


Yes. But if the consequences are going to be BAD, then why do we still need to conduct that action?

But there are CONSEQUENCES to free sex! What if I have a family?

The original thread poster wanted to know why free sex is legal, and paid sex is not.

Free sex is not prostitution.

The original thread poster wanted to know why free sex is legal, and paid sex is not.

Free sex is not prostitution.

Because both free sex and paid sex are liberal (and immoral), but just that paid sex is businesslike and may mean that either of the party is unwilling. If both are willing, then just have sex with your own husband/wife!

But you would be degraded, however.

And that's the point of these laws, to protect the weak from abuse by the strong. To argue otherwise is similar to saying that a rape victim "might as well lie back and enjoy it".
What if she doesn't feel degraded? Some people look down on fast food workers. They wouldn't work in a burger king because they find being a fry cook degrading. Do we ban menial jobs because of that? If someone is willing to do a job, whether in a fast food shop or a brothel, who are we to stop them? Who decides what's too "degrading"? I think the person who should decide is the employee. If you think prostitution is degrading, don't be a prostitute. If someone else thinks being a prostitute is a decent job, who are you to prevent them from pursuing their chosen profession?

But there are CONSEQUENCES to free sex! What if I have a family?
I have a simple solution: Don't do it then. But, hard to believe as you may find it, there are people out there in this world who are single. As in: not bound to a spouse, not in a commitment, not having a steady partner etc. How exactly does it hurt those people if they come together for the purpose of having sex? What is the dire consequence? That they might have fun and by that virtue destroy society?

But there are CONSEQUENCES to free sex! What if I have a family?
There are consequences to everything. Not everyone is a family man. Some single guys are willing to frequent prostitutes or go to the local bar and get laid for free and are willing to face the consequences. It's their decision, not mine or yours.

Because both free sex and paid sex are liberal (and immoral), but just that paid sex is businesslike and may mean that either of the party is unwilling. If both are willing, then just have sex with your own husband/wife!

If prostitution were a legal business, how would that imply that either party is unwilling?

If the woman doesn't want to work in a legal business, she doesn't have to. She can get a different type of job. That's like saying that women who work in clothing stores might be doing it against their will.

And the man is freely spending his money. He's definitely not doing something against his will.

A third party might be upset by this arrangement, but then again they may not. There are some married women who are glad that their husband sticks around and never touches them. There are also some married women who would rather their husband find someone extremely temporary if the man is fooling around - finding out your husband is actually in love with someone else is far, far more relationship-ending than finding out he had a one-night stand with a woman he'll never see again.

That, and making prostitution illegal doesn't seem to have any effect on prostitution, other than to make it more dangerous for the women who do ply the trade. It certainly doesn't stop it.

It also has no effect on the people who have sex for free.

Because both free sex and paid sex are liberal (and immoral), but just that paid sex is businesslike and may mean that either of the party is unwilling. If both are willing, then just have sex with your own husband/wife!
That makes no sense at all. If one party is unwilling to do business it doesnt enter a contract. Unless you are talking about forced prostitution, which is one of the dark sides of illegal prostituion. The number of pimps here in Germany dwindles each year since it became a legal, regulated and taxed business.

Social costs of prostitution include increased family tension, which may lead to divorce and neglected teens, which some will grow to erodents of social solidarity.
It is not prostitutes who endanger a family, but husbands who decide to go to them. Surely this is a sign that something is fundamentally wrong in this marriage!

Family is the most basic unit of human grouping. If that fundamental unit is corrupted, we can forget about all the other social units.
Again, if a husband goes to a prostitute the unit is not in the best of states anyway. Also, not all clients are actually married. Why shouldn't they go to prostitutes?

Also, STDs spread far easier with prostitution.
Agreed, but then again this is only the case when prostitutes are not officially controlled (i.e. becase it's legal). In fact, having safe sex with a licensed prostitute is probably healthier than just sleeping with someone you meet and know nothing about (e.g. at Myrtle Beach ;) )

Because both free sex and paid sex are liberal (and immoral)

What's immoral about sex? If both are consenting, moral doesn't even enter the equation!

Because the laws are as they are. You can't remove all prostitution by making a law. You can (and do) however prevent the nicer forms, that are dependent on nice locales and good public relations. The current ban is IMO equivalent to taxing prostitution and giving the money to organized crime.

The reason why prostiution is illegal is the same as the reason why drugs and gay marriage is illegal: Because some politicians want to rule people's morals. All the "reasons" they point to for keeping the ban are effects of said ban.From what I have observed the reason prostitution remains illegal is because no one has found a way to justify changing the status quo, and let's face it, for most people it is a low priority to find a way to justify.

Yes it was caused by people imposing their morality on other people, but that is done all the time - the same people who made prostitution illegal were instrumental in also making slavery illegal, forcing their morality on others. Virtually all laws consist of one group of people imposing thier morality on other people. We don't let hippies walk onto to strangers' lawns, eat the fruit off their trees and break into thier houses to sleep in thier beds and we don't allow rich people to pay poor people for thier children so they can kill them for sexual gratification - even though both groups may consider their actions to be completely moral.

Heck, I'm forced to pay taxes to support public schools, somthing I consider immoral, are you suggesting that publicly funded schools should be shut down ( yay) because it offends my moraity? If government must make it rulings so as not to conflict with any persons morality, then it is prohibited from banning anything, since there are doubtless some people who will view any given action as moral.

I agree with everything except the comment about Massachusetts. While they have done their dirt, some of the people who attended the Continental Congress and helped to craft the Constitution were from Massachusetts. John Adams in fact built religious tolerance into the Massachusetts state Constitution.

My point was, unlike the other colonies, Massachusetts didn't adopt the "religious tollerance" views of the other colonies, till late in their inception. Many of the others either were founded in charter under the principle (Maryland, Providence Plantation[Rhode Island], Pennsylvania, New York), or adopted it during colonial periods (Virginia, North Carolina, Delaware) even in the presence of a "State Church".... Mass. didn't officially end Religious Government till their adoption of their Constitution.... The others had done it either at charter, or through the interim period before the Revolution. Mass. were late bloomers, compared to the other Colonies... (Providence Plantation/Rhode Island was founded because of the religious intollerance of the Massachusetts Bay Colony... composed of persons who fled religious persecution there.)

dunno if some-one has already said this cos I can't be arsed to read through 14 pages of debate (and in any case it's just a semantic point) but recieving money for sex isn't actually illegal (at least in the uk)... its just that soliciting, kerb-crawling, running a brothel etc... are.

Maybe if the women were free agents, it wouldnt be so bad, but I think having a pimp who beats them up and takes half of their money would suck. They should start a hookers union or something.
It's generally more then 1/2 that the pimps take.
I becomes a for of slavery when the pimps become involved.

1. Did you stop to think that maybe I've been offline and was unable to respond? I see you've started with the flaming. "Admitting you're wrong is beyond you" - people like you give athiests a bad name. Grow up. I admit I'm wrong, but you know what I mean by polygamy - sex with multiple partners. No need to start flaming about it.

2. Ermm, look around you?

3. Then why are there STDs?

This is not a moral issue, so why do you have to bring it up? I'm trying to keep religion out of it.


2. Bars. Go into any bar and you will find at least one person who is searching for someone other than their current partner to sleep with.

3. STDs are there because of people NOT using protection of some sort, such as a latex condom. STDs are spread by unprotected sex, normally done by people who are uneducated in what protected sex means.

Legalizing prostitution would allow the gov't (where ever you may be) to monitor it, set health guidelines, safety, etc. If you don't want the kitty, then don't go in!

But there are CONSEQUENCES to free sex! What if I have a family?

What if you have a family?!? If you have a family, what are you doing soliciting hookers (EDIT: free or otherwise)? How is your OWN moral failing a problem of the government? If YOU wish to destroy your marriage or if YOU wish to risk an STD infection, the government is not there forcing you to stick your dumb-stick into some diseased cooch.

What the governent COULD be doing (and reaping tax money from) is ensuring that those who DO sell their goods do so disease- and pimp-free. The whole "destroys marriage" argument is a complete fallacy because it assumes that any or all married men will WANT to pay a hooker for sex.

Government's place is not in anyone's bedroom.

Because both free sex and paid sex are liberal (and immoral), but just that paid sex is businesslike and may mean that either of the party is unwilling. If both are willing, then just have sex with your own husband/wife!

Have you lost your mind?

Who has EVER been FORCED to pay a prostitute for sex if they were "unwilling"? The prostitute CHOSE to be a prostitute, and if she doesn't want to be one anymore, she can choose THAT avenue, too. And if you say that getting out of "the life" is difficult and dangerous, well guess what? That's the consequence of ONE PERSON's choice to be a prostitute. And if the prostitute was abducted and forced into that life, then guess what again, that's kidnapping (and coercion, unlawful imprisonment, lots more) and ALREADY ILLEGAL.

Your arguments are poorly-crafted vessels that hold very little water. You seem to think that prostitution is some kind of rampaging entity that just swallows people up when they're horny and not looking. It's a consensual crime, and as such, iy's a bit of hypocrisy in a "free" society.

Well, considering that prostitution has been illegal for centuries in most countries, and it hasn't gone away, perhaps continuing to make it illegal isn't going to stop it?

While I don't disagree with your position, I just wanted to point out the fault in your logic:

"Well, considering that murder has been illegal for centuries in most countries, and it hasn't gone away, perhaps continuing to make it illegal isn't going to stop it?"

Does that sound like a sound argument for making murder legal? ;)

While I don't disagree with your position, I just wanted to point out the fault in your logic:

"Well, considering that murder has been illegal for centuries in most countries, and it hasn't gone away, perhaps continuing to make it illegal isn't going to stop it?"

Does that sound like a sound argument for making murder legal? ;)

Apples and oranges.

Murder is the removal of a life from existence, which has an effect on anyone the victim knows or has responsibilities toward, no matter how small. Prostitution does no such thing. Try again.

While I don't disagree with your position, I just wanted to point out the fault in your logic:

"Well, considering that murder has been illegal for centuries in most countries, and it hasn't gone away, perhaps continuing to make it illegal isn't going to stop it?"

Does that sound like a sound argument for making murder legal? ;)
I'm honestly amazed that it took this long for someone to make this comparison. I waited so long in fact that I completely lost interest in debating it :(

Apples and oranges.

Murder is the removal of a life from existence, which has an effect on anyone the victim knows or has responsibilities toward, no matter how small. Prostitution does no such thing. Try again.

I'm not debating the weight of the matter, but the structure of the argument. To say that something considered wrong should be made legal simply on the basis that making it illegal doesn't stop it from occurring is faulty logic.

I'm honestly amazed that it took this long for someone to make this comparison. I waited so long in fact that I completely lost interest in debating it :(

Sorry, I only discovered this thread some ten minutes ago...

I'm not debating the weight of the matter, but the structure of the argument. To say that something considered wrong should be made legal simply on the basis that making it illegal doesn't stop it from occurring is faulty logic.

Legality, illegality in a free republic, or any such other form of "free" government, as may exist; should be made upon the determination of the effect of such acts as they are presented upon that of another.

That is, that acts which specifically violate the natural rights of one person, in the exercize of the natural rights of another; should be illegal.

Those acts, in exercize of the natural rights of a person, which do not impede upon the natural rights of another, should be legal.

Murder is an act, whereby, a person in exercize of their own powers, impedes upon the right of another, that is, their right to life. Thus, murder should be illegal. However, if a person is defending their own person, or their property, as such, also being natural rights, death or injury occured upon the violator, should be perfectly legal in defense of the victims rights.... Thus, "self-defense" is a perfectly legal claim.

Theft is an act whereby one person deprives someones natural rights to their property. Thus, theft should be illegal.

Now, could you make the same argument towards prostitution?

If you cannot make an argument that prostitution is in violation of anothers rights... Then you cannot argue its illegality within the realm of law as defined by a "free" form of government.

Legality, illegality in a free republic, or any such other form of "free" government, as may exist; should be made upon the determination of the effect of such acts as they are presented upon that of another.

That is, that acts which specifically violate the natural rights of one person, in the exercize of the natural rights of another; should be illegal.

Those acts, in exercize of the natural rights of a person, which do not impede upon the natural rights of another, should be legal.

Murder is an act, whereby, a person in exercize of their own powers, impedes upon the right of another, that is, their right to life. Thus, murder should be illegal. However, if a person is defending their own person, or their property, as such, also being natural rights, death or injury occured upon the violator, should be perfectly legal in defense of the victims rights.... Thus, "self-defense" is a perfectly legal claim.

Theft is an act whereby one person deprives someones natural rights to their property. Thus, theft should be illegal.

Now, could you make the same argument towards prostitution?

If you cannot make an argument that prostitution is in violation of anothers rights... Then you cannot argue its illegality within the realm of law as defined by a "free" form of government.

The winner and still (for now) champion -- LOGIC! Yay! Well done!

Prostitution is not illegal.

damn straight, those yanks think that jsut because its illegal in their backward capitalist shithole that it is illegal everywhere, they dont realise that life exists outside of their borders

They should form a Union. A Hooker Republic of Tzao-Shu-Jin in China sounds good for a HQ.