NationStates Jolt Archive

Forgiveness is pretty large part of most religions, especially Christianity. With people being able to ask, and recieve, forgiveness for their sins. So isn't it about time Lucifer was pardoned? I think so. Next time you say your prayers, ask God to forgive Satan for his sins. Or is there some reason why he is unforgavable?

Forgiveness is pretty large part of most religions, especially Christianity. With people being able to ask, and recieve, forgiveness for their sins. So isn't it about time Lucifer was pardoned? I think so. Next time you say your prayers, ask God to forgive Satan for his sins. Or is there some reason why he is unforgavable?

According to catholic dogma, you have to repent in order to be forgiven... so all you could pray for is that Lucifer finally understands his "mistakes" and asks God for forgiveness himself...

I think that's about right, yes.

Forgiveness is pretty large part of most religions, especially Christianity. With people being able to ask, and recieve, forgiveness for their sins. So isn't it about time Lucifer was pardoned? I think so. Next time you say your prayers, ask God to forgive Satan for his sins. Or is there some reason why he is unforgavable?

That's an original and refreshing take on it...

You know who I thought was an interesting rendition of "The Devil"? In the movie "The Prophecy" (Elias Kotias, Christopher Walken, Eric Stoltz), the devil was played by Viggo Mortensen. I thought he did a pretty good job.

He has this great line, how did it go...

"You remember all those nights you lay awake when you were a kid, thinking I was under your bed? Well, I was."

Hell Yes.

Save Satan.

I always wondered about this. In Dante's Inferno, Vigil scolds Dante for pitying the souls in Hell because he says that they deserve their fate and by the time Dante reaches Lucifer he feels hatred towards him rather than pity. But New Testament teachings seem to point towards the fact that mercy and pity are more worthy emotions that hatred and revenge.

yes let us pray for the forgiveness of all who harbor evil in there hearts.an all loveing and forgiveing god would never permanetly punish someone.

Forgiveness is pretty large part of most religions, especially Christianity. With people being able to ask, and recieve, forgiveness for their sins. So isn't it about time Lucifer was pardoned? I think so. Next time you say your prayers, ask God to forgive Satan for his sins. Or is there some reason why he is unforgavable?

Forgiveness doesnt work like that with God. He wont just say "I forgive you" without you doing anything. You have to ask for fogiveness and be truely repentent. Satan is neither of these things. He created a rebellion in heaven and attempted to overthrow God. As a result Michael sent him out of God's presence, to hell. Satan's nature is also diffrent to humans. He was an angel not human, so we dont know if his sins and transgressions are treated in the same way.

Forgiveness doesnt work like that with God. He wont just say "I forgive you" without you doing anything. You have to ask for fogiveness and be truely repentent. Satan is neither of these things. He created a rebellion in heaven and attempted to overthrow God. As a result Michael sent him out of God's presence, to hell. Satan's nature is also diffrent to humans. He was an angel not human, so we dont know if his sins and transgressions are treated in the same way.

Ever seen the movie "Dogma"?
Onevery interesting statement is made there by one of the two renegade angels. I can't really quote it, but it is basically the angel complaining about the fact that humans have the possibility of choice. They are allowed to believe in whatever they want, they can commit the worst sins, if they come back asking forgiveness god will grant it to them.
Angels don't seem to be so lucky. They are not allowed to choose, they only serve. If they choose to disobey god, they will not be forgiven.

Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long years
Stole many a man's soul and faith

And I was 'round when Jesus Christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that Pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game

I stuck around St. Petersburg
When I saw it was a time for a change
Killed the czar and his ministers
Anastasia screamed in vain

I rode a tank
Held a general's rank
When the blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name, oh yeah
Ah, what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah

I watched with glee
While your kings and queens
Fought for ten decades
For the gods they made

I shouted out,
"Who killed the Kennedys?"
When after all
It was you and me

Let me please introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
And I laid traps for troubadours
Who get killed before they reached Bombay

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But what's confusing you
Is just the nature of my game

Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me Lucifer
'Cause I'm in need of some restraint

So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse
Or I'll lay your soul to waste

*snip*

Thank you sir, somebody had too. ;)

Forgiveness doesnt work like that with God. He wont just say "I forgive you" without you doing anything. You have to ask for fogiveness and be truely repentent. Satan is neither of these things. He created a rebellion in heaven and attempted to overthrow God. As a result Michael sent him out of God's presence, to hell. Satan's nature is also diffrent to humans. He was an angel not human, so we dont know if his sins and transgressions are treated in the same way.
Educate me. What were satan and his mates rebelling against?
Not a trick question just never read that stuff.

Forgiveness requires remorse for your own mistakes, a desire to change, AND you have to ask God yourself.

I cannot see Lucifer do any of those things.

Besides the only reason we are able to GET forgiveness is because Christ suffered for every man's sins. I don't think he suffered for Satan, though I could be wrong.

Angels are not on a different scale from us. They are just unborn people, and people who have already died. Theirs is an earned place of honor, not a slavery by any stretch of the imagination.

We dont have an indefinite amount of time to repent, we only have whatever amount of time we have on this earth. Once you die or the world ends, the time to repent is over. You cant repent after you are in hell. Satan's time has been over for a long time.

Forgiveness is pretty large part of most religions, especially Christianity. With people being able to ask, and recieve, forgiveness for their sins. So isn't it about time Lucifer was pardoned? I think so. Next time you say your prayers, ask God to forgive Satan for his sins. Or is there some reason why he is unforgavable?

He refuses to request to be forgiven. It is a gift He is unwilling to accept. It was actually offered to him before he was cast out of Heaven, but he was unwilling to acknowledge God's perfect soveriegnty.

Educate me. What were satan and his mates rebelling against?
Not a trick question just never read that stuff.


God had a plan to send mankind to earth and let them use their agency and make choices to see who would earn their way back to His presence.

Satan however had his own plan, he wanted:
A: to force everyone to be good so that EVERYONE would come back.
B: he wanted God's power and glory in return for bringing everyone back.

he baically thought he was better than God and was angry when his plan was rejected, he convinced 1/3 of the hosts of heaven to revolt against God. God had tem cast out.

Angels are not men at all. They are seperate beings created by God in a realm separated from Earth. When they rebelled, they were cast out, and, being angels, were subject to a different set of rules. Satan and his rebel angels were cast out forever for their deeds. Not like Satan cares, anyway. When he discovered he could not be as powerful as God, he decided to pain God by depriving Him of His children on Earth. Satan moved to deceive as many as possible and pervert as much as possible of creation. This is also why he will not be redeemed. He cannot stand being second to anyone, including God. Remember, he was basically the best, most beautiful angel in heaven, topped only by God. The only way he sees to get back at his one rival is to pervert the rest of creation.

Forgiveness requires remorse for your own mistakes, a desire to change, AND you have to ask God yourself.

I cannot see Lucifer do any of those things.

Besides the only reason we are able to GET forgiveness is because Christ suffered for every man's sins. I don't think he suffered for Satan, though I could be wrong.

Angels are not on a different scale from us. They are just unborn people, and people who have already died. Theirs is an earned place of honor, not a slavery by any stretch of the imagination.
I still don't know what he did to get thrown out but don't forget that history is written by the victors. 'Praps he doesn't feel he's done anything wrong after all we've only got gods word on this and he passed it via fallible men, No?

edit }thanks Eriadhin. truly educated but what I posted above still stands. He felt he had a good idea and stuck with it. seems fine to me christians do it all the time ;) {edit

ok, yeah...BUT all God did was reject his idea, Satan was the one who rebelled after that, causing God the loss of 1/3 of his children. disagreement isn't a sin.

Fighting against the Lord is kinda dangerous :D

Angels are not men at all. They are seperate beings created by God in a realm separated from Earth. When they rebelled, they were cast out, and, being angels, were subject to a different set of rules. Satan and his rebel angels were cast out forever for their deeds. Not like Satan cares, anyway. When he discovered he could not be as powerful as God, he decided to pain God by depriving Him of His children on Earth. Satan moved to deceive as many as possible and pervert as much as possible of creation. This is also why he will not be redeemed. He cannot stand being second to anyone, including God. Remember, he was basically the best, most beautiful angel in heaven, topped only by God. The only way he sees to get back at his one rival is to pervert the rest of creation.
Confused. surely that was gods fault for creating man with faults that satan could exploit. And how does this sit with the story of Job?

ok, yeah...BUT all God did was reject his idea, Satan was the one who rebelled after that, causing God the loss of 1/3 of his children. disagreement isn't a sin.

Fighting against the Lord is kinda dangerous :D
Ah.. ego...I see
Thanks

Educate me. What were satan and his mates rebelling against?
Not a trick question just never read that stuff.

He rebeled against God. He wanted all the power, ambition.

Confused. surely that was gods fault for creating man with faults that satan could exploit. And how does this sit with the story of Job?

Its not that he created a faulty thing. He gave us the ability to choose. That is not a flaw but a divine requirement for life. That which cannot choose is dead.

Confused. surely that was gods fault for creating man with faults that satan could exploit. And how does this sit with the story of Job?

He created men with free choice so there would be perfect worship of Him. Without free will, man would have no recourse but to worship, and this is not perfect. Satan merely perverts free will (like everything else) to bring about the fall of men.

And as to Job:

I'm not sure exactly of your question, but you can see in this book how Satan simply wants to cause a child of God to rebel against Him, and does everything he can to accomplish that goal. He is bent only on perverting creation to slight God.

Its not that he created a faulty thing. He gave us the ability to choose. That is not a flaw but a divine requirement for life. That which cannot choose is dead.
clever old god. we'd call that a design feature where I work.

He rebeled against God. He wanted all the power, ambition.

What's wrong with that? What gives God the right to be God other than an accident of creation? Why a Kingdom of Heaven and not a People's Democratic Republic of Heaven?

well i guess we should start out with some definitions:
satan the devil is a name given to the fallen angel that led a revolt against gods right to rule or sovereignty(think of it in terms of midevil european kings)
his name literally mean betrayer and slanderer. because he betrayed his god and went on to slander his name.

the book of job describes satan as a beautiful angel given a position of authority over the garden of eden who became obsessed with his own importance and dwelled on it to the point he rebelled.

on the matter of forgiveness, as already pointed out there is a limit to gods forgiveness. namely stop doing the sin that you asked forgiveness for(hense why homosexual behavior cannot be tolerated by judeo/cristian/muslim faiths).

then there is also the mater of "sinning against the holy spirit" which is when you have come to an acurate understanding of what god expects of you but you un-remorsefully go right back to doing said sin. for such sin there is no forgiveness.


Eternal Green Rain
Educate me. What were satan and his mates rebelling against?

gods sovereignty or right to rule....it's a matter of politics



Eriadhin

Angels are not on a different scale from us. They are just unborn people, and people who have already died. Theirs is an earned place of honor, not a slavery by any stretch of the imagination.
incorrect.
angels literally servants in the old hebrew text were created beings, created long before jesus offered the possibility of a heavenly reward for his followers. up until that time the concept was that god meant for humans to return to life on earth through a resurection of the dead. as shown by abrahams comments about offering up issiac (SP?) and the book of ecclesiastes's comments on the condition of the dead-feeling, and knowing nothing.

on this note it should also be pointed out that other heavenly creatures in the christian text serve other duties in heaven namely seraphim (royal guards) and cherubim (soldiers) aside from just the angels (servants)

Kurenai Youkai
But New Testament teachings seem to point towards the fact that mercy and pity are more worthy emotions that hatred and revenge.
if you are going to follow christian teaching you have to follow the bibles old and new testament in it's whole. as such the cristian god is refered to as "a mighty god of war", "a jealous god", and it is also stated that
vengence is his". the bible makes it very clear there are things the christian god actually hates and does so without reservation.

Cabra West
Angels don't seem to be so lucky. They are not allowed to choose, they only serve. If they choose to disobey god, they will not be forgiven.
first dogma was a great movie ALL HAIL JAY AND SILENT BOB!!!!

secondly angels do very well have choice. the christian god could have easily and rightly whiped out satan at the very start, but he showed restraint to let satan prove his case in front of all the other angels(as described in the book of job) so that the question would not linger in the minds of the other angelic servants. also prior to the biblical flood it says they forsook thier places in heaven and came to earth taking on physical bodies. if they were ONLY allowed to "serve" they would not have had the choice to forsake, or leave at thier own instigation, the positions they held.
;)

http://www.normalbobsmith.com/satanssalvation/

I'm surprised noone posted this, really.


And Sympathy for the Devil rocks!

Forgiveness is pretty large part of most religions, especially Christianity. With people being able to ask, and recieve, forgiveness for their sins. So isn't it about time Lucifer was pardoned? I think so. Next time you say your prayers, ask God to forgive Satan for his sins. Or is there some reason why he is unforgavable?

probably coz he doesn't exist and was created by churches so people could shift responsibility for thier wrong doing onto "the devil".
i mean, the classical image of satan being a horned man with goat legs was created from a celtic religious figure called pan, in order to convert them to christianity

The most absurd load of self-contradictory garbage I have ever heard. There is no devil, there is only God. The devil was invented by the Church as a means to frighten people into submission.

Forgiveness is pretty large part of most religions, especially Christianity. With people being able to ask, and recieve, forgiveness for their sins. So isn't it about time Lucifer was pardoned? I think so. Next time you say your prayers, ask God to forgive Satan for his sins. Or is there some reason why he is unforgavable?

I did such a thing...weirdly...

What's wrong with that? What gives God the right to be God other than an accident of creation? Why a Kingdom of Heaven and not a People's Democratic Republic of Heaven?

The nature of God. This is where it gets complicated. In a democracy, all the people are essentially equal and the one that wins only wins because the most people choose him. Heaven isn't like that. God IS above the angels by very nature.