NationStates Jolt Archive

This has me surely convinced that Bush is very paranoid. I am firmly against this rather blantant kick to the face of the original constitution. Do we really need to give the FBI nearly unlimited control and power? It would be like the SS of Nazi Germany, or other internal security forces. And from SW Episode 3 "And this is how liberty ends - with thunderous appluase"

Also is it me or is Bush trying to establish an Empire? He has alot of imperialistic idea's. And when he gives speeches its always about his agenda. Not ours, or our allies.

It sure seems that way doesn't it. I still can't believe our country put him in power twice now.

The Patriot Act needs to end.

I would be very pleased if he either stepped down or impeached. I might stay in the country then. But barring those miraclous events I plan on moving eventually.

This Patriot Act is his first stepping in giving him unconditional power. I know that crazy wacho will try to run a third time.

This Patriot Act is his first stepping in giving him unconditional power. I know that crazy wacho will try to run a third time.

Ridiculous. Unless there were a Constitutional amendment, he couldn't legally do it. I highly doubt that 2/3 of the states would ratify such an amendment.

Although I voted for Bush, I've always been vehemently against the PATRIOT Act. The last thing we need to do is expand it.

The first step in establishing dictatorship over a democracy is to create a state of national emergency which requires suspension of the Constitution and the granting of emergency powers. Bush is already on his way down that well-travelled road.

The first step in establishing dictatorship over a democracy is to create a state of national emergency which requires suspension of the Constitution and the granting of emergency powers. Bush is already on his way down that well-travelled road.
You're starting to sound like those "Bush planned 9-11!!!" nutcases.

He's been going that way a long time...

If you care to compare him to some famous character from history, try this link :

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-hitlerdemo.htm



Especially this part :

On February 27, 1993, a fire engulfed the Reichstag -- Germany's symbol, if not actual center, of democracy. Hitler blamed it on the Communists, and used it as an excuse to begin a brutal crackdown. This he accomplished by drawing up an emergency decree "for the Protection of the people and the State." It read:
"Restrictions on personal liberty, on the right of free expression of opinion, including freedom of the press; on the rights of assembly and association; and violations of the privacy of postal, telegraphic and telephonic communications and warrants for house searches, orders for confiscations as well as restrictions on property, are also permissible beyond the legal limits otherwise prescribed." (6)

You're starting to sound like those "Bush planned 9-11!!!" nutcases.

Whether he planned it or not, I couldn't say.
But he knew how to profit from this tragedy.

You're starting to sound like those "Bush planned 9-11!!!" nutcases.
I said no such thing. Your response says a whole lot more about you than it does about me.

This has me surely convinced that Bush is very paranoid. I am firmly against this rather blantant kick to the face of the original constitution. Do we really need to give the FBI nearly unlimited control and power? It would be like the SS of Nazi Germany, or other internal security forces. And from SW Episode 3 "And this is how liberty ends - with thunderous appluase"

Also is it me or is Bush trying to establish an Empire? He has alot of imperialistic idea's. And when he gives speeches its always about his agenda. Not ours, or our allies.


seconded

Whats this about expanding the patriot act?

congress already gave him the power of war. It would not be difficult to give him much more power.

By the way, was it me, or did Episode 3 remind alot of people about current situations?

congress already gave him the power of war. It would not be difficult to give him much more power.

By the way, was it me, or did Episode 3 remind alot of people about current situations?

"George W. ... R I S E !" ???

Sorry, I didn't see the move yet, just the trailer... ;)

Although I voted for Bush, I've always been vehemently against the PATRIOT Act. The last thing we need to do is expand it.

Yeah but do you still support him now? Even after he tried to intervene in the Terri Shiavo case? He lost 6% of his supporters because they were smart enough to see he wasnt doing what he as a conservative should have been doing.

Maybe I'm just a bad human being, but I was glad to see Schiavo finally laid to rest. *shudder*

Ever seen Million Dollar Baby? Heart wrenching - but good movie.

As far as this patriot act business goes, it doesn't sound like good news for us Americans. Hm.

The first step in establishing dictatorship over a democracy is to create a state of national emergency which requires suspension of the Constitution and the granting of emergency powers. Bush is already on his way down that well-travelled road.
I was gonna say that!.
From the outside he seems to be removing US freedoms under the guise of protecting them. It doesn't make him hitler or mussolini but as you say he's following in their footsteps.
The next move is normally to circumvent the normal legal system for "national security" (or did they do that already I don't pay as much attention as I should - no sarcasm intended)

I'll bet anyone money that at least part of the Patriot Act is found unconstitutional by the Supreme Court by 2020. Just like rulings against Japanese Internment and the Suspension of Habeus Corpus, it'll come a few years too late to help any of the poor bastards the Federal Gov't harasses with this legislation.

Oh no, our freedom is being violated! Not. Have you seen any innocent person dragged off to jail because of the Patriot Act?

Have they proved them all guilty in open trial?

*Cough*Guantanamo Bay*cough*

Oh, you mean the place where all the terrorists are held? None of them are innocent.

Even the ones released without charge or trial? You are rather naive aren't you?

Which ones released without charge or trial?

http://www.gnn.tv/blogs/4068/Guantanamo_Release

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4262095.stm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/library/news/2005/01/sec-050111-247c3ff0.htm

Oh no, 1 man? Maybe it was really an accident, but better safe then sorry. As for torture, he can't back that up.

Read them all. Over 200 released. Out of about 700. I am very confident of the accuracy of US security forces now.

And since most of them claim torture and, let's face it, Guantanamo hasn't been subtle about it's purpose I think we can be fairly safe in assuming there is some truth in this.

You provided sources that said 1 was released, and he claimed he was tortured. I don't see 200 anywhere.

He's been going that way a long time...

If you care to compare him to some famous character from history, try this link :

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-hitlerdemo.htm



Especially this part :

On February 27, 1993, a fire engulfed the Reichstag -- Germany's symbol, if not actual center, of democracy. Hitler blamed it on the Communists, and used it as an excuse to begin a brutal crackdown. This he accomplished by drawing up an emergency decree "for the Protection of the people and the State." It read:
"Restrictions on personal liberty, on the right of free expression of opinion, including freedom of the press; on the rights of assembly and association; and violations of the privacy of postal, telegraphic and telephonic communications and warrants for house searches, orders for confiscations as well as restrictions on property, are also permissible beyond the legal limits otherwise prescribed." (6)

By comparing Bush to Hitler, you have invoked Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law)! For shame!

Oh no, 1 man? Maybe it was really an accident, but better safe then sorry. As for torture, he can't back that up.

Better safe than sorry would mean that you don't take the risk of imprisoning innocent people for years. You basicly ruin an innocent mans life ...

And why is it impossible to 'back it up'? could it be because:
1) All the - if still existing - evidence is in the hands of those that did it.
2) The US is not so keen on letting international inspectors investigate the situation. If you want to get in gitmo, you have 2 options. a) Become a soldier and 'get lucky' b) Become a terrorist and get yourself caught.

"More than 200 terrorist suspects have been released"

Direct quote from globalsecurity.org.

This has me surely convinced that Bush is very paranoid.Don't know about that... There are an awful lot of people who would like to kill our civilians with rather than stand up and fight (our military) honorably.

I am firmly against this rather blantant kick to the face of the original constitution.Agree totally.

Do we really need to give the FBI nearly unlimited control and power? It would be like the SS of Nazi Germany, or other internal security forces.Except for 80 million+ of us... (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/SyniksFriendsSM2.jpg) Until the UN or other Liberal body takes them away, we will stand up and fight to save the Liberals too should things get too weird. But as of yet, IMO even the bad points of the Patriot act haven't reached "normal" EC police authority, much less full frontal fascisim...
<snip> Also is it me or is Bush trying to establish an Empire? He has alot of imperialistic idea's. It's you. It's rather tough to have an empire when nobody wants to colonize...
And when he gives speeches its always about his agenda. Not ours, or our allies.Well, if I were a public figure giving speeches, it would be about my agenda too. Why should I talk about someone else's agenda?

By comparing Bush to Hitler, you have invoked Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law)! For shame!


Well, it's a LAW for a reason ;)

You're starting to sound like those "Bush planned 9-11!!!" nutcases.
he probably didnt plan it, but beleive me, the fact that it happened turned out pretty good for him.

he probably didnt plan it, but beleive me, the fact that it happened turned out pretty good for him.

Here's a thought: he could have just let it happen. That's right. Really easy to cover up and blame others for (not saying I necessarily believe that; just a thought).

Also, anybody who thinks ANY government doesn't abuse power is naive. And I am willing to bet our government does some bad things behind closed doors (which they are trying to take away for us :( )

Oh no, our freedom is being violated! Not. Have you seen any innocent person dragged off to jail because of the Patriot Act?
There you go again. You think you would have learned from the last few threads you wanked.
Type up "Maher Arar" on your (whatever) search engine and see how far you get with that attitude.
Type up "extraordinary rendition".
Type up "Egypt" in corollary.
Start this kind of conversation with Canuck Heaven.
Hop into the archives and punch up "Patriot Act" by poster "Forseral"Maybe read a few of my posts from there ... oh wait, didn't i say you should do that on another thread as well?

Just educate yourself before you flap off.

Originally Posted by Straughn
*Refers to case of Maher Arar*
-and article from Bob Herbert, week of 2.26.05

*snip*
In the fall of 2002, Arar, a Canadian citizen, suddenly found himself caught up in the cruel mockery of justice that the Bush administration has substituted for the rule of law in the post-Sept. 11 world. While attempting to change planes at New York's Kennedy Airport on his way home to Canada from a family vacation in Tunisia, he was seized by U.S. authorities, interrogated and thrown into jail. He was not charged with anything, and he never would be charged with anything, but his life would be ruined.
Arar was surrepetitiously flown out of the United States to Jordan and then driven to Syria, where he was kepy like a nocturnal animal in an unlit, underground, rat-infested cell that was the size of a grave. From time to time he was tortured. (...goes on w/various unpleasantries)
...
The Justice Department has alleged, without disclosing any evidence whatsoever, that Arar is a member of, or somehow linked to, Al-Qaida. If that's so, how can the administration possibly allow him to roam free? Te Syrians, who tortured him, have concluded that Arar is not linked in any way to terrorism.
...
Official documents in Canada suggest that Arar was never the target of a terror investigation there. One former Canadian official, commenting on the Arar case, was quoted in a local newspaper as saying "accidents will happen" in the war on terror.
...
Arar is the most visible victim of the reprehensible U.S. policy known as extraordinary rendition, in which individuals are abducted by U.S. authorities and transferred, without any legal rights whatever, to a regime skilled in the art of torture. The fact that some of the people swallowed up by this policy may in fact have been hard-core terrorists does not make it any less repugnant.
Arar, who is married and also has an 8-year-old daughter, said the pain from some of the beatings he endured lasted for six months.
...
A lawsuit on Arar's behalf has been filed against the United States by the Center for Constitutional Rights in New York. Barbara Olshansky, a lawyer with the center, noted Thursday that the government is arguing that none of Arar's claims can even be adjudicated because they "would involve the revelation of state secrets."

-

Also, like to point out a couple of things ... they named one of the jets for such renditions earlier this week in THE SAME GUY'S CASE (kidnapping) ... since i don't feel like transcribing it, i'll short it as such ..:

"Data in jet's log support claims in detainee lawsuit"
Scott Shane, Stephen Grey and Ford Fessenden (NY TIMES) - week of 3.30.05

...Federal Aviation Agency records show that a Gulfstream III jet,
tail number n829MG
followed a flight path matching the route he described. The flight, hopscotching from New Jersey to Virginia to Maine to Rome and beyond, took place on Oct. 8, 2002, the say after Arar's deportation order was signed.
According to FAA flight logs for Oct. 8, 2002, only one aircraft flew that route: the 14-passenger Gulfstream III jet, operated by
Presidential Aviation, a charter company in Fort Lauderdale, Florida.
...
The administration has refused to cooperate with the Canadian inquiry into Arar's case and has asked a judge to dismiss most of his lawsuit, saying that allowing it to proceed would reveal classified information.
"President" (note: quotes mine) Bush has said it is U.S. policy neither to engage in torture nor to deliver prisoners to countries where they are likely to be tortured.

OUTSOURCING TORTURE

by JANE MAYER
The secret history of America’s “extraordinary rendition” program.

On January 27th, President Bush, in an interview with the Times, assured the world that “torture is never acceptable, nor do we hand over people to countries that do torture.” Maher Arar, a Canadian engineer who was born in Syria, was surprised to learn of Bush’s statement. Two and a half years ago, American officials, suspecting Arar of being a terrorist, apprehended him in New York and sent him back to Syria, where he endured months of brutal interrogation, including torture.

And we have this about an impending law suit filed by Arar:

U.S. Claims Maher Arar "Extraordinary Rendition" Lawsuit Jeopardizes National Security

The U.S. government is attempting to dismiss a lawsuit brought by Canadian citizen Maher Arar, claiming the litigation would jeopardize national security.

-

What about this professor who was granted a visa to work at Notre Dame University and had it revoked by the Homeland Security Department, with the following possible consequences:


The Patriot Act authorizes the control and censure of writings and publications and the surveillance of universities, both American and foreign. It permits the revocation of visas for teachers and students coming from countries judged to be "sensitive." This most recent use (or, more accurately, abuse) of this legislation contributes to a process that in the long run can substantially set back the right to freedom of thought and expression in universities and among researchers on both sides of the Atlantic and as such seriously affects relations between universities in Europe and the United States.
"The government is refusing to tell the public how it is using these extraordinary new powers, even in the most general terms," Beeson said. "At the same time, the government is gagging the ACLU and others from speaking freely about our legal challenges," Beeson said.

Don't know about that... There are an awful lot of people who would like to kill our civilians with rather than stand up and fight (our military) honorably.

I don't agree with everything you say...

but i sure as hell <3 sluggy.

How dare you people. Don't talk bad about the President- He is a great man. He will end our problems. If you vote agains the Patriot Act, then all of you are not Patriots- that is why it is called the Patriot Act, because anyone who is agianst it is a Traitor.

Pretty sick, isnt it?

As an American, it pisses me off that others are willing to sacrifice their civil liberties quicker than they are willing to sacrifice bad foreign policies.

Down with the patriot act! It is an act against Patriotism itself!