NationStates Jolt Archive

I just got this email from a Christian friend of mine. Please excuse his poor spelling and grammar. Any thoughts on how I should respond?

"Thought provoker, follow you belief through to conclusion: if there is no hell, no punishment for sins, and conscience and free will happens to exist by chance, then why not ignore conscience and kill people? you have the free will to do so, as they have the free will to stop you, it is only a matter of whose will is greater. forget all laws, as they are based on conscience and the bible, and that is a God given gift! anybody who ticks you off, kill em, and how are you wrong in doing so? once you throw away God you throw away morals and conscience, then why not go nuts, (you might not find this concept as appealing as me and someone like Kyle, as we are both very strong and dominant for our age and I am not so sure of Kyle but I am skilled in many weapons, blades, fire arms, bows etc.) and once the idea of no punishment for sins is established why not, your not going to go to hell, its not wrong, there is no right and wrong, merely free will to do as you like. you want that blonde then take her, if she has the will and the means to stop you, then good for her, if not... You claim this is imposing on her free will, but you not being able to ravage her is an imposition of your free will. once everyone starts thinking along these lines,(in our little example world) all 'hell' breaks loose, the strong dominate, the weak fall prey to rape and death, everyone steals for themselves and feel no remorse for any of these crimes, and you should not be the "good guy" and stop them, for that would be imposing on their free will and they aren't wrong in their actions! very soon you have a lot of (as the bible describes them) evil and wicked people going around, and they destroy the world through war and war heads. not a very bright outlook on the future if your theory is true and no God exists! The other option is that, after all these people have turned from the ways of today to this evil, and are about to destroy the world, (the end of the world!) God comes down to take his followers up to heaven, And all the people say: "Oh, so you do exist after all, can we come up to heaven now?" GOD IS not an all forgiving wuss! read the old testament! if you are wicked and dis him he kills you*, he'll take the few good people up to heaven with him and the rest are damned!

That is your theory!!!!!!! and the scary thing is: how far off are we from the end of the world like that, when you think of the number of unbelievers in this country alone! We as good and honourable men must protect these blondes from wicked people! for they do exist even now and SO DOES GOD!

as you see by reading the bottom conversation with Kyle.

you just didn't get it I hope for your sake you do know, if you want to have a ( as you call it) good informed opinion, a book you might like to read is Merely Christianity, by CS Louis,

* read around Moses, he begged God not to kill his people despite their sins, but when Moses got to the bottom of the mountain, he saw what the people were doing, he got so mad that he got the men that were still loyal to God and ordered them to kill all the others anyway, Moses was that mad! and God, on many occasion has razed cities and killed unbelievers! he is forgiving of he that has sinned but is sorry and as a whole is a righteous man, but he is no Wuss that can be taken advantage of. As you say yourself the debate was never between God and Evolution as they are, despite what people think, unrelated matters, On another tone I think that evolution is not the way God created the Earth, people and animals, but each to his own, it is after all unimportant. you have said so yourself many a time."

"Let's write a response."

The absence of the Bible does not equate to the end of compassion, conscience, justice or self-restraint.

My response is to just shake my head and slowly walk away.

You might want to mention that most people the world over live by the golden rule. With or without a Bible handy. Also living in a society with out laws and conventions is counter productive. No one would live past the age of five. OOH OOH, chimp's show evidence of a moral code. A learned behavior at that. If a young chimp fails to share some yummy morsel with friends and family he'll be harrassed or ignored a day or so, especially at the next meal time. No one will share with him. Or just remind him that every group of people has a moral code. Even the "primitive tribesmen" who've never seen a white person or heard of his god. Or Hummbri (sp) the Babylonian ruler who first had the laws of his state written down. Even the whore of Babylon had rules to live by. Most of which an avid Bible reader wouldn't bat an eye lash at.

Conversely point out some of the awful behavior in the Bible. Genesis 9:20-27 Noah get drunk and passes out with him mannly bits exposed. His son Ham sees those bit by accident. To punish Ham he makes Ham's youngest son a slave.

Ken's Guide to the Bible by Ken Smith is a fun resource for all that weird and creepy about the Bible.

A short and to the point response should be something like "Pull your finger out." or "C'mon, don't bullshit me."

Something longer might go on to point out that laws exist to safeguard society and its citizens, and that the fact that secular societies have laws shows that they are not drawn from the existence of a God. Any society that wishes not to destroy itself through anarchy has laws.... by your friend's logic, any of those societies are drawing their laws from God, despite never having believed in God in the first place.

Seems to me that God is the vehicle through which these sorts of people achieve their own evils - ironic.

Your friend's first fault is to argue on the premise that god is the source of morality. Both god and morality are learned, and the number of cultures who aren't Christian and yet have developed their own functional morality system is evidence of this. Likewise are the examples of people who have committed immoral and unchristian acts in the name of god. My examples are subjective, I'm sure you can think of some.

His second fault is to assume that all people operate within the dichotomy of god's will vs free will. When you take the god out of the equation, the notion of free will becomes redundant, because you're only going to be subject to your free will.

Thirdly, he assumes that god-imposed morality is only ever good, and subsequently concludes that free-will is only ever bad. From this faulty premise, he argues that free-will obliterates all personal standards of conduct, and presumes that under your own free will, you are helpless to control your behaviour. He implies that your own autonomy and capacity for good is non-existent without god. In response to this, I would ask him to explain how non-Christians are capable doing good in the world. Based on his assumption that you have no self-control, he throws in some slippery-slope argument that without divinely imposed structures, not only would your life become morally unfeasible, but the society in which you live would collapse.

He doesn't think outside the box. He alienates his audience by his presumptions that without god, they are not capable of good. He should probably consider developing his PR skills before he tries prosthelytising full-time.

For the record, yes, I do believe in god. This isn't a Christian bashing excercise. I've listened to many Christian speakers who can argue the merits of their standpoint without alienating the opposition.

(you might not find this concept as appealing as me and someone like Kyle, as we are both very strong and dominant for our age and I am not so sure of Kyle but I am skilled in many weapons, blades, fire arms, bows etc.)

This kid is a douche, for one thing. He is also a hypocrite who is saying that, were there no fear of punishment from God, he would have absolutely no problem going around and killing people. So maybe you should avoid opposing his Christian beliefs.

If you think it is possible to reason with him, you could tell him that we, as rational people, understand the need for laws and limitations to free will, as there will always be someone or some group stronger than you we, as individuals are. This means that we enter into society knowing that a group of people who respect the rights and free will of others will always be stronger than one individual who has no respect for these things.

Seems to me that God is the vehicle through which these sorts of people achieve their own evils - ironic.

The Bible says that God created man in his image. The fact is, many people of religion create God in their own image to justify their own ignorance and hatred.

The Bible says that God created man in his image. The fact is, many people of religion create God in their own image to justify their own ignorance and hatred.

Yeah, precisely, I agree. Their actions stemming from their God-given ignorance and hatred is, to them, the will of God and thus they insist it should not be questioned.

Thanks guys! There are some really good points here that I will try and highlight to him. Though don't count on this guy seeing logic or reason.

Heh, here's one that will throw him:

Jesus is Black.
Yes, Jesus originated from Bethlehem in the middle east. People who originate from the middle east are black. Also since Jesus and God are technically the same thing (for some unapparent reason) then God is also black.

Heh, here's one that will throw him:

Jesus is Black.
Yes, Jesus originated from Bethlehem in the middle east. People who originate from the middle east are black. Also since Jesus and God are technically the same thing (for some unapparent reason) then God is also black.
I think it's well documented that if Jesus walked the earth, he would have been dark skinned, yes. He lived in a region where the sun's intensity (environmental effect) would have influenced the frequency of offspring with high melanin dispersal. Structurally, however, one might argue that he was of caucasoid descent, so he would have had the dark skin, but the structural features of today's Arabic/Indian population. However, some people classify people from India as Asian, though one might argue that they don't look Asian the way the Chinese and Japanese look Asian. So was Jesus black the way that Denzel is black? Or is he black the way that Imran Khan is black? Race is an odd term, because it can't be defined by the distinguishing features of a race, or the region where that race has traditionally evolved. I think it's well established that Jesus wasn't a pastey skippy like I am, but I can't see how arguing about the colour, make and model of Jesus is pertinent to shooting down JRV's friend's slightly biased and tangental diatribe.

Hmm many religeons practice caring etc
Ive never had a Catholic or Anglican or other decent Christian 'Sect' try and convert me why is it always the joke ones?

'your mom'?


ok, i couldn't actually be arsed reading all that, so i dunno

'your mom'?


ok, i couldn't actually be arsed reading all that, so i dunno
Yeah
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=8879747
:rolleyes:

'your mom'?


That's "yo mama". Silly islanders. :D

That's "yo mama". Silly islanders. :D
quiet you, i felt disgusting enough having to write 'mom' instead of 'mum'!

quiet you, i felt disgusting enough having to write 'mom' instead of 'mum'!
Yes Ma'ham
*Bows to her grace*

You said this person is your "friend".

Send him a short and politely written response: "I appreciate your friendship. However, your email seemed terse and aggressive. On such a serious topic, I would have preferred that you discussed this with me in person. I look forward to talking with you soon."

I just got this email from a Christian friend of mine. Please excuse his poor spelling and grammar. Any thoughts on how I should respond?

"Thought provoker, follow you belief through to conclusion: if there is no hell, no punishment for sins, and conscience and free will happens to exist by chance, then why not ignore conscience and kill people? you have the free will to do so, as they have the free will to stop you, it is only a matter of whose will is greater. forget all laws, as they are based on conscience and the bible, and that is a God given gift! anybody who ticks you off, kill em, and how are you wrong in doing so? once you throw away God you throw away morals and conscience, then why not go nuts, (you might not find this concept as appealing as me and someone like Kyle, as we are both very strong and dominant for our age and I am not so sure of Kyle but I am skilled in many weapons, blades, fire arms, bows etc.) and once the idea of no punishment for sins is established why not, your not going to go to hell, its not wrong, there is no right and wrong, merely free will to do as you like. you want that blonde then take her, if she has the will and the means to stop you, then good for her, if not... You claim this is imposing on her free will, but you not being able to ravage her is an imposition of your free will. once everyone starts thinking along these lines,(in our little example world) all 'hell' breaks loose, the strong dominate, the weak fall prey to rape and death, everyone steals for themselves and feel no remorse for any of these crimes, and you should not be the "good guy" and stop them, for that would be imposing on their free will and they aren't wrong in their actions! very soon you have a lot of (as the bible describes them) evil and wicked people going around, and they destroy the world through war and war heads. not a very bright outlook on the future if your theory is true and no God exists! The other option is that, after all these people have turned from the ways of today to this evil, and are about to destroy the world, (the end of the world!) God comes down to take his followers up to heaven, And all the people say: "Oh, so you do exist after all, can we come up to heaven now?" GOD IS not an all forgiving wuss! read the old testament! if you are wicked and dis him he kills you*, he'll take the few good people up to heaven with him and the rest are damned!
i would stop right here and remind him that even if god doesnt punish you, society does and there it no sense ending up spending the rest of your life in prison for rape and murder. you might even look up the beginning of plato's republic and quote discussion of why its not a great idea to be bad but be thought good.


That is your theory!!!!!!! and the scary thing is: how far off are we from the end of the world like that, when you think of the number of unbelievers in this country alone! We as good and honourable men must protect these blondes from wicked people! for they do exist even now and SO DOES GOD!

as you see by reading the bottom conversation with Kyle.

you just didn't get it I hope for your sake you do know, if you want to have a ( as you call it) good informed opinion, a book you might like to read is Merely Christianity, by CS Louis,

* read around Moses, he begged God not to kill his people despite their sins, but when Moses got to the bottom of the mountain, he saw what the people were doing, he got so mad that he got the men that were still loyal to God and ordered them to kill all the others anyway, Moses was that mad! and God, on many occasion has razed cities and killed unbelievers! he is forgiving of he that has sinned but is sorry and as a whole is a righteous man, but he is no Wuss that can be taken advantage of. As you say yourself the debate was never between God and Evolution as they are, despite what people think, unrelated matters, On another tone I think that evolution is not the way God created the Earth, people and animals, but each to his own, it is after all unimportant. you have said so yourself many a time."
yes but when was the last time the pope, the archbishop of canterbury, or even jerry fallwell exhorted his followers to butcher the unbelievers and got results? recommend the book "when bad things happen to good people" by harold kushner to your friend. its a more mature approach to "why bad things happen" than "its all gods punishment for sins"

so was his point that you need to become a christian so that you can avoid raping pretty women? was it the rather obviously wrong theory that god will smite YOU for not believing? does he think he can scare you into belief through some notion that moses is gonna get you?

My response is: your friends with this person? Is his name George middle inital W surname Bush?

My response...
"Thought provoker, follow you belief through to conclusion: if there is no hell, no punishment for sins, and conscience and free will happens to exist by chance, then why not ignore conscience and kill people? you have the free will to do so, as they have the free will to stop you, it is only a matter of whose will is greater. forget all laws, as they are based on conscience and the bible, and that is a God given gift! anybody who ticks you off, kill em, and how are you wrong in doing so?
Why do that? What's the point in doing that? As stated, it goes against conscience, so why would anyone willfully do that for no reason?

once you throw away God you throw away morals and conscience,
Not so. As you admitted above, even in the scenario of free will happening by chance, there is still a conscience ("why not ignore conscience"), and where there is conscience, there are morals.

then why not go nuts, (you might not find this concept as appealing as me and someone like Kyle, as we are both very strong and dominant for our age and I am not so sure of Kyle but I am skilled in many weapons, blades, fire arms, bows etc.) and once the idea of no punishment for sins is established why not, your not going to go to hell, its not wrong, there is no right and wrong, merely free will to do as you like. you want that blonde then take her, if she has the will and the means to stop you, then good for her, if not...
You answered your own question... it's nuts. It is not a thing for a sane mind to pursue.

You claim this is imposing on her free will, but you not being able to ravage her is an imposition of your free will. once everyone starts thinking along these lines,(in our little example world) all 'hell' breaks loose, the strong dominate, the weak fall prey to rape and death, everyone steals for themselves and feel no remorse for any of these crimes, and you should not be the "good guy" and stop them, for that would be imposing on their free will and they aren't wrong in their actions! very soon you have a lot of (as the bible describes them) evil and wicked people going around, and they destroy the world through war and war heads. not a very bright outlook on the future if your theory is true and no God exists!
Having free will does not mean not being imposed upon in any way. Will is the activity of an active, conscious mind. It is possible to be conscious and imposed upon. "Free" will is not a freedom to do what you want and not be imposed upon. The "free" part of it is not in your ability to do whatever, but in your capacity to do whatever.

*snipped the tripe*

so, when a friend screws up, you need to extend friendship in order to keep that friendship.


I haven't known of any moral/religious issue that has been resolved (or, it seems, much less handled with any degree of civility) by two people in an electronic fussilade of attacks and counter-attacks. For anyone reading NS posts, that is a fairly obvious and reasonable conclusion.

Take the high road like I suggested earlier. If he doesn't respond politely, then he has no interest in being your friend AND he's being rather hypocritical about his faith.

If he responds politely, then you have the oppotunity to mend a friendship and establish some boundaries concerning how he should communicate to you.

Nobody smells good after a pissing contest.

I think you should refer your friend to a psychiatrist.

You said this person is your "friend".

Send him a short and politely written response: "I appreciate your friendship. However, your email seemed terse and aggressive. On such a serious topic, I would have preferred that you discussed this with me in person. I look forward to talking with you soon."


Thats the most reasonable response I've seen yet. As a non-christian, I've had more than a few friends misguidedly wish to "save me". Most of them backed off after I informed them I wanted their friendship, not their religion. The ones that didn't pretty clearly showed why I didn't need or want their "friendship" and I cut them from my life. If your friend can't respect you as a person without you being the same religion as him (or her) they probably aren't worth bothering with.