NationStates Jolt Archive

News Article (http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1009_22-5702505.html)

Senate approves electronic ID card bill

Last-minute attempts by online activists to halt an electronic ID card failed Tuesday when the U.S. Senate unanimously voted to impose a sweeping set of identification requirements on Americans.

The so-called Real ID Act now heads to President Bush, who is expected to sign the bill into law this month. Its backers, including the Bush administration, say it's needed to stop illegal immigrants from obtaining drivers' licenses.

If the act's mandates take effect in May 2008, as expected, Americans will be required to obtain federally approved ID cards with "machine readable technology" that abides by Department of Homeland Security specifications. Anyone without such an ID card will be effectively prohibited from traveling by air or Amtrak, opening a bank account, or entering federal buildings.

After the Real ID Act's sponsors glued it to an Iraq military spending bill, final passage was all but guaranteed. Yet that didn't stop a dedicated cadre of privacy activists from trying to raise the alarm in the last few days.

UnRealID.com, which calls the legislation a "national ID card," says that more than 10,800 people filled out its online petition to senators.

The Electronic Frontier Foundation hastily created a "Stop The Real ID Act!" campaign last week, and the ACLU denounced the bill as a measure that would create "a system ripe for identity theft." Security guru Bruce Schneier offered his own negative critique.

If the Real ID Act had been a standalone piece of legislation--instead of being embedded in an unrelated military spending bill--its passage in the Senate might have been less certain.

The House approved it in February by a relatively narrow vote of 261-161, and some senators had condemned it. Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill., warned last month that the Real ID Act creates "de facto national ID cards" and the National Immigration Law Center said it will make it harder even for legal immigrants and citizens to get drivers' licenses.

Rep. F. James Sensenbrenner, a Wisconsin Republican and Real ID Act sponsor, applauded the Senate vote on Tuesday. "The Real ID is vital to preventing foreign terrorists from hiding in plain sight while conducting their operations and planning attacks," Sensenbrenner said. "By targeting terrorist travel, the Real ID will assist in our war-on-terror efforts to disrupt terrorist operations and help secure our borders."


The end of freedom is near friends.

That's it, I'm packing my shit and leaving this country when I turn 19.

That's it, I'm packing my shit and leaving this fucked-up country when I turn 19.
And where are you going where you don't have to have "papers"?

Nah, stay here and just refuse to play along.

Homeland Security is running it?

I smell 1984...

That thing's supposed to have an RFID tag, right?

Do you think wrapping it in tinfoil will be able to cut off the signal? I wouldn't want anybody getting the signal it who shouldn't be.

That's it, I'm packing my shit and leaving this country when I turn 19.
I agree, fight the power.

I live in Wisconsin and yet condemn the actions of Rep. F. James Sensenbrenner

this ID thing is stupid, moronic, idiotic, retarded...anybody else got a synonym?

Once I'm done with college (I'm 14 atm, gonna be stuck here a while) I'm movin to Denmark or Australia.

We got national identity cards in most of Europe I think. At least here in Germany we do since a long time. It's not as bad as you think it is. Owning a national identity card adds some pride into showing it to whoever wants to see it. *proudly shows his German passport* :D With a NID card you can show which nation you belong to and it makes identifying yourself so easy - just put it into your purse or so. And this can be used for many things. Unles it grows ot become microelectronic chips for humans, I'd always support such a NID card system.

Ein Deutscher']We got national identity cards in most of Europe I think. At least here in Germany we do since a long time. It's not as bad as you think it is. Owning a national identity card adds sime pride into showing it to whoever wants to see it. *proudly shows his German passport* :D
This is going to be a full on tracking device, not a passport.

Do even care about this and when it goes in effect deal with it.

Well national identity cards can only be used to track ppl down if they contain microchips and can be tracked by satellite, even without the owner being aware that he is being tracked. Is that the case in the US?

Ein Deutscher']Well national identity cards can only be used to track ppl down if they contain microchips and can be tracked by satellite, even without the owner being aware that he is being tracked. Is that the case in the US?
It's the US, they might, but also, everytime you use it or show it it is logged into a computer, and so the government keeps tabs on you. Also, do you really want all your personal information stored in a computer database where it could be hacked? And this would make fraud a lot easier.

I'm really not quite sure what the big deal is. I'll bet people had this same argument when they were issuing social security numbers and driver's licences.

That thing's supposed to have an RFID tag, right?

Do you think wrapping it in tinfoil will be able to cut off the signal? I wouldn't want anybody getting the signal it who shouldn't be.

Tinfoil only works in beanie form!

oh mighty tinfoil beanie! (http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html)

Oh god no, the government can keep track of its citizens efficiently? :eek: Who really cares?

If the government really can track you down, who cares? They aren't just going to randomly track you down for no reason, they have real work to do.

"This is how liberty dies, with a thunderous clap" (Yea...a Star Wars rip off...lol)

No offense to the government or anything, but I'd rather them not know my every move. Yea sure we live in a humble democracy at the moment, but think long term. Eventually the US WILL collapse, just like EVERY nation has, I'd perfer our future dictator not to know where we'll be at. :D

News Article (http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1009_22-5702505.html)

Senate approves electronic ID card bill

Last-minute attempts by online activists to halt an electronic ID card failed Tuesday when the U.S. Senate unanimously voted to impose a sweeping set of identification requirements on Americans.

The so-called Real ID Act now heads to President Bush, who is expected to sign the bill into law this month. Its backers, including the Bush administration, say it's needed to stop illegal immigrants from obtaining drivers' licenses.

If the act's mandates take effect in May 2008, as expected, Americans will be required to obtain federally approved ID cards with "machine readable technology" that abides by Department of Homeland Security specifications. Anyone without such an ID card will be effectively prohibited from traveling by air or Amtrak, opening a bank account, or entering federal buildings.

After the Real ID Act's sponsors glued it to an Iraq military spending bill, final passage was all but guaranteed. Yet that didn't stop a dedicated cadre of privacy activists from trying to raise the alarm in the last few days.

UnRealID.com, which calls the legislation a "national ID card," says that more than 10,800 people filled out its online petition to senators.

The Electronic Frontier Foundation hastily created a "Stop The Real ID Act!" campaign last week, and the ACLU denounced the bill as a measure that would create "a system ripe for identity theft." Security guru Bruce Schneier offered his own negative critique.

If the Real ID Act had been a standalone piece of legislation--instead of being embedded in an unrelated military spending bill--its passage in the Senate might have been less certain.

The House approved it in February by a relatively narrow vote of 261-161, and some senators had condemned it. Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill., warned last month that the Real ID Act creates "de facto national ID cards" and the National Immigration Law Center said it will make it harder even for legal immigrants and citizens to get drivers' licenses.

Rep. F. James Sensenbrenner, a Wisconsin Republican and Real ID Act sponsor, applauded the Senate vote on Tuesday. "The Real ID is vital to preventing foreign terrorists from hiding in plain sight while conducting their operations and planning attacks," Sensenbrenner said. "By targeting terrorist travel, the Real ID will assist in our war-on-terror efforts to disrupt terrorist operations and help secure our borders."


The end of freedom is near friends.
I fail to see how this is an infringement on anyone's "liberty." If it's unconstituional in some way, I'm certain it will be challenged and overturned. If it's not unconstitutional, then it doesn't infringe on any guaranteed freedom.

Hardly worth getting all bent out of shape about.

Homeland Security is running it?

I smell 1984...
No. You just smell! :D

I think this is really pushing it but personally I was more upset over the patriot act.

This is going to be a full on tracking device, not a passport.
Oh, bullshit! Get a real life, willya? Jeeze. :rolleyes:

I'm really not quite sure what the big deal is. I'll bet people had this same argument when they were issuing social security numbers and driver's licences.
Exactly! And just like some of the mindless, knee-jerk responses on here, there were some saying that it was "the end of freedom."

I find this pretty interesting, to be honest. Though opinion may differ in regards to this issue, why should you worry when you haven't done something terribly wrong and have nothing to hide from the authorities?

I find this pretty interesting, to be honest. Though opinion may differ in regards to this issue, why should you worry when you haven't done something terribly wrong and have nothing to hide from the authorities?
I suspect that most of the highly negative responses on here are either from those with incipient paranoia, or those who expect to do something not quite kosher in the future and are scared the government may find out about it. :D

I suspect that most of the highly negative responses on here are either from those with incipient paranoia, or those who expect to do something not quite kosher in the future and are scared the government may find out about it. :D

You're a fucking genius.

That thing's supposed to have an RFID tag, right?.
I they want eficient cards...all they need is this in the platic

http://cartome.org/gps-chip.jpg

Look, anybody here who buys anything using a method other than cash or drive a car not have a driver's license? Even those who don't can get a state id relatively easily.

All this law does is force the states to enforce minimum standards when issuing driver's licenses. This will, hopefully, cut down on fraudulently obtained id's, with the target groups being those who sell fake id's, illegal aliens, and terrorists. You don't HAVE to get one, though it makes it hard to do anything these days without one.

As far as the RFID chip goes, it has a range of about 4 feet - not something that can be used to track with. I have heard of some concerns about identity theft, but I believe those can probably be worked out.

This is NOT a huge step towards everyone having to produce "papers, please". It just makes all states have a minimum standard, so that Maryland driver's licenses would be accepted just as readily as Alaska's when boarding a plane.

You're a fucking genius.
And you are a fucking obsenity. :D

As far as the RFID chip goes, it has a range of about 4 feet - not something that can be used to track with. I have heard of some concerns about identity theft, but I believe those can probably be worked out.I they want a tracking ID...
they would not use RFID...check the pic i posted...

Huh...I dunno what to think of this, really. It's moot for me since I'm already in the military and have ID checks up the yinyang as it is, so...

And you are a fucking obsenity. :D

Many apologies, but I can't stand it when hippies and/or commies whine about something. I tend to break out in swearing when that happens. :D

Many apologies, but I can't stand it when hippies and/or commies whine about something. I tend to break out in swearing when that happens. :D
ROFLMAO! Yeah, I tend to get a bit that way too, only with me it's usually when someone's just being stoopid. :D

Ignore this at your peril.
http://www.countdown.org/armageddon/mark_of_beast.htm
http://www.unrealid.com/
http://www.idautomation.com/666mark/
http://www.zianet.com/wblase/endtimes/nationid.htm
http://www.bible-prophecy.com/mark.htm
http://www.av1611.org/666/
http://www.bibleprophesy.org/666mark.htm

Well. This is grand.

Now, what's gonna be next on the agenda? Hmmm... I'll bet Barcodes and National DNA databases, with Global Tracking Devices the size of pinheads implanted in the spinal column soon after.

I can see the 'sales' pitch already...

"The GPS locators are to help us find kidnapped Americans in foriegn soils. The 'GPS-Tracking-Device-in-the-Neck Act' will also effectively and compltely nullify all kidnapping cases in America, and soon after that, the WORLD!"


Riiiight... And the Illuminati is fake...

Ignore this at your peril.
http://www.countdown.org/armageddon/mark_of_beast.htm
http://www.unrealid.com/
http://www.idautomation.com/666mark/
http://www.zianet.com/wblase/endtimes/nationid.htm
http://www.bible-prophecy.com/mark.htm
http://www.av1611.org/666/
http://www.bibleprophesy.org/666mark.htm

... I KNEW it was only a matter of time before someone saw this and started screaming "ANTI-CHRIST! MARK o' tha BEAST! Repent all thee unfaithful."

Ugh. Christans make me ill to my stomach...

I fail to see how this is an infringement on anyone's "liberty." If it's unconstituional in some way, I'm certain it will be challenged and overturned. If it's not unconstitutional, then it doesn't infringe on any guaranteed freedom.

But think of all the illegal alien.....err "undocumented workers" that will be effected. Not to mention all the drug runner..... uh "central american tourists" that will be inconvienced.

If there ever was a time in the new millenium for the ACLU to stand up, its now.

... I KNEW it was only a matter of time before someone saw this and started screaming "ANTI-CHRIST! MARK o' tha BEAST! Repent all thee unfaithful."

Ugh. Christans make me ill to my stomach...

Repent!!! The end is nigh!

But think of all the illegal alien.....err "undocumented workers" that will be effected. Not to mention all the drug runner..... uh "central american tourists" that will be inconvienced.
The horror. The horror! [ shudders ] :D

That's it, I'm packing my shit and leaving this country when I turn 19.
I'd be with you, except I can't work x___x
<== has autism :(

this ID thing is stupid, moronic, idiotic, retarded...anybody else got a synonym?

American. http://tigerdiamond.net/images/e0/whistling.gif

Ugh. Christans make me ill to my stomach...
Definitely a tolerant chap not at all prone to lumping all Christians in the paranoid/neocon/dumbass category.

I don't know if it will have any actual effect on me, but it's just creepy.
To all those that say "If you aren't doing anything wrong, you don't have anything to fear." I have a query. Would you say the same thing if they wanted to be able to search your house/car/pockets at will?

Strange to see the Americans here acting more hysterical than I did when I first heard about the proposed ID cards over here in Britain :)

I don't know if it will have any actual effect on me, but it's just creepy.
To all those that say "If you aren't doing anything wrong, you don't have anything to fear." I have a query. Would you say the same thing if they wanted to be able to search your house/car/pockets at will?

Or if we all had to have glass walls to make sure we do nothing wrong. I mean, if you are doing nothing wrong you shouldn't worry right.

(Chocolate biccie for the person who knows what book I'm talking about)

News Article (http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1009_22-5702505.html)
If the Real ID Act had been a standalone piece of legislation--instead of being embedded in an unrelated military spending bill--its passage in the Senate might have been less certain.



No shit.

State's rights Republican style:

"State's rights apply to anything that falls within our agenda.......but all state's issues that do nothing to bolster our various power grabs must bear the full brunt and wrath of the massive federal government."

It's the hypocrisy, stupid. Or as I like to call it, "IOKIYAR" It's ok if you're a Republican.

Definitely a tolerant chap not at all prone to lumping all Christians in the paranoid/neocon/dumbass category.

Your not a true Christian Australus, if you dont believe in the mark, devils existance etc your just a silly naive one.

So I take it all the American lefties on here will be burning their ID cards?
Surely, you wont be putting future comfort in front of your principles...

So I take it all the American lefties on here will be burning their ID cards?
Surely, you wont be putting future comfort in front of your principles...


I'm just simply not going to get one, thats all. I'll continue to use my Cali driver's license and if the powers that be don't like it, they can try to do something about it.

I'm just simply not going to get one, thats all. I'll continue to use my Cali driver's license and if the powers that be don't like it, they can try to do something about it.

They will m8, ever been in jail?

They will m8, ever been in jail?

Well, I'm kind of hoping they'll just deport me.....maybe to Norway or something so I can go see some bad ass live black metal ^^.

I don't know if it will have any actual effect on me, but it's just creepy.
To all those that say "If you aren't doing anything wrong, you don't have anything to fear." I have a query. Would you say the same thing if they wanted to be able to search your house/car/pockets at will?

I have nothing to hide, B.K. - So you may search my pockets at will. Thoroughly and slowly.

They will m8, ever been in jail?

In America are they actually going to throw people in jail for having no ID? Just that in Britain we will only get a fine because he doesn't want to create any "IS martyrs." Also I have heard the US prison population is nearing full capacity anyway so adding more prisoners to an overloaded system probably wouldn't help.

Well, I'm kind of hoping they'll just deport me.....maybe to Norway or something so I can go see some bad ass live black metal ^^.
But what if you want to come back, and see your family one day, and they just say, sorry but we can't let you into the country now.

You have got nothing to hide!

In America are they actually going to throw people in jail for having no ID? Just that in Britain we will only get a fine because he doesn't want to create any "IS martyrs." Also I have heard the US prison population is nearing full capacity anyway so adding more prisoners to an overloaded system probably wouldn't help.

I guess they could make room for the card dodgers, by executing all the habitual criminals, yes, that would free up a lot of space I think.

I suspect that most of the highly negative responses on here are either from those with incipient paranoia, or those who expect to do something not quite kosher in the future and are scared the government may find out about it. :D
Or people are worried that as people (yes, in America) have been imprisioned for nothing more than "association with terrorists". That people are no longer allowing their names to be connected with mosques for fear of the government, and you're saying its a good idea to let the government see more of people's lives.

Just another question to Americans, will you have to pay for your ID card? If so, anyone have any idea what figure?

Ugh... I'm willing to bet we'll have to shell out fifteen to twenty greenbacks for these new ID cards. Joys.


Definitely a tolerant chap not at all prone to lumping all Christians in the paranoid/neocon/dumbass category.

Actually, it'd be 'Lass,' if we're gonna use that diralect. I'm a lady, I just find the whole concept behind the cult that is Christianity to be... Well, extremely funny. As well as the fact that Christians take themselves seriously. They actually believe the nonsense they spew out of their mouths(Well, for the most part, most of 'em do at least).

Of course, as my father always says, "If the shoe don't fit... Don't wear it!"

Well, in the words of my mother, "I'm taking the money, and moving to a warmer climate!" Later. Off to bed for me.

I find this pretty interesting, to be honest. Though opinion may differ in regards to this issue, why should you worry when you haven't done something terribly wrong and have nothing to hide from the authorities?
It's not so much the idea that you have nothing to hide, it's more the idea that the authorities don't have any business knowing what you do, as long as it's law-abiding.

For instance, if I buy a ton of fertilizer for the farm, should the police care? Hell no, not unless they want to help me spread it. If I mix it with diesel, put it in a van, and park the van in front of a Federal building, then they should care.

It is a question of how much intrusion into private affairs one is willing to tolerate. I don't think the driver's licensing is going to affect us one way or another. We all have government records at age one, nowadays. That's when you are issued a Social Security number so your parents can claim you as a dependent for the IRS.

it's more the having to pay for one *in Britain, anyway* that gets me. I don't want one, but I'm going to be forced to pay for one, anyway. Last I heard, they were going to cost an absolutely stupid £80. If the thing costs anything more than a pound to make, they've been cut a bad deal. Assuming, however, that the cost does come to one pound to construct a card... that's still 80x the price, obviously. How is that one justified? And what will they spend the absurd amount of revenue that will generate on? Not the hospitals, schools/colleges/universites, that's what.

Another concern I have is that if all of your information is on it, then it makes it almost stupidly easy for identity fraud to take place. Instead of just losing one card, you lose all of them at once. "don't put all your eggs in one basket", anyone?

Thirdly, I don't see why the gov't needs to know this. It won't make illegal immigrants any easier to find unless they do impose a "papers please" approach, asking for your papers whenever they feel like it. ID cards can only be used to monitor the progress of people who have them. and I doubt illegal immigrants are going to possess them.

Ugh... I'm willing to bet we'll have to shell out fifteen to twenty greenbacks for these new ID cards. Joys.


Count yourself lucky, in Britain we are going to have to pay considerably more than that :(

ID cards can only be used to monitor the progress of people who have them. and I doubt illegal immigrants are going to possess them.

Thats abig reason why their bringing them in, if you dont have one, or a visa you will be tossed out, simple.

Thats abig reason why their bringing them in, if you dont have one, or a visa you will be tossed out, simple.
Damn good idea. Tossing out illegal aliens, that is. I wish the governments were really seriouis about it.

That's it, I'm packing my shit and leaving this country when I turn 19.
Unless you plan on sneaking out of the country on foot, you'll need an ID card.

Won't be able to use a normal border crossing by car, or get on a plane or train without one.

Look, anybody here who buys anything using a method other than cash or drive a car not have a driver's license? Even those who don't can get a state id relatively easily.

...

This is NOT a huge step towards everyone having to produce "papers, please". It just makes all states have a minimum standard, so that Maryland driver's licenses would be accepted just as readily as Alaska's when boarding a plane.
At first I thought that there are no problems. Most of us already have some kind of ID and etc. But this sentence from the article changed my attitude towards it.

Anyone without such an ID card will be effectively prohibited from traveling by air or Amtrak, opening a bank account, or entering federal buildings.
Well you have to show ID while opening a bank account but entering federal buildings? While travelling INSIDE the country? Makes absolutely no sense to me. Or do you really have to proof your identity on these occasions already? Cos if you do, you're in a whole lot worse situation than what I ever expected.

Freeeedom!!!!! :rolleyes:

Well you have to show ID while opening a bank account but entering federal buildings? While travelling INSIDE the country? Makes absolutely no sense to me. Or do you really have to proof your identity on these occasions already? Cos if you do, you're in a whole lot worse situation than what I ever expected.

Freeeedom!!!!! :rolleyes:
Airlines will make you show an ID so that they know you are really the ticketed passenger. It's their rule, not the FAAs. They've finally quit claiming that it is. I don't know about trains, but I expect they have same interest in only permitting the person that bought the ticket to ride the train.

You understand that keeps me from changing my mind about at trip and selling my ticket to another. The other must buy his own ticket, producing more revenue for the airline. I have to pay a huge change fee to reuse my ticket on another date.

Airlines will make you show an ID so that they know you are really the ticketed passenger. It's their rule, not the FAAs. They've finally quit claiming that it is. I don't know about trains, but I expect they have same interest in only permitting the person that bought the ticket to ride the train.


Heh, to be honest...that COULD be the custom with airlines around here too...*krhmmmm* well, not the first stupid mistake by me...
I'm not sure about it as I've only flown inside the country on continueing flights (term? the next or previous flight is to or from another country). Then they always check the ID on the first airport.

Trains still make no sense to me. If you get discount from the ticket, you have to be able to proof that you're allowed to it (e.g. student id) but that's the only reason. If you pay the whole price, there's no need to reveal your identity to anyone. I guess the reasons could be the same in both cases...but they are not good enough.

Don't they have national ID cards in most European nations? Places where they say they are better nations than the US?

Don't they have national ID cards in most European nations? Places where they say they are better nations than the US?
Well, they would say that wouldn't they ;)

Don't they have national ID cards in most European nations? Places where they say they are better nations than the US?
No they don't.

Just passport and driver's licenses.

But you can get one if you really want it. :)

A national ID card system is great to track people by how they use their card as it would leave a massive electronic trail of where you use. It won't be perfect as someone would be able manipulate the system to get false IDs eventually.

Guess what, Tony Blair wants to introduce one of these systems to the UK too.

No they don't.

Just passport and driver's licenses.
IIRC, Germany has a national ID card.

IIRC, Germany has a national ID card.
Germany=most?

There are over 50 nations in Europe.

Germany, France, Belgium, Greece, Luxembourg, Portugal and Spain have national ID cards. In Sweden, while everyone has a national number, they don't have a single ID card.

Ironically, the Parliaments of several European nations, including France and Holland, have accepted a law introducing the obligation to identify oneself in numerous situations including, for instance, at work, at football stadiums, on public transport an in banks. While the card is voluntary in name, it is in effect a compulsory instrument that will be carried at all times by Dutch citizens. The French ID card is mandatory.

IIRC, Germany has a national ID card.

Which contains only my name, a picture, my birthday, my registry number and where my primary residence is.

It can't by used to track my movement, all it can be used for is to check or to confirm my identity.

Suggesting this is a tool for "control of the masses" is a insane claim.

And to answer your other "suggestion", most parts of Europe ARE a better place than the US, at least we don't allow ourselves to slip into the first steps of fascism to "protect ourselves from evil jihadiac islamiac terrurists". :eyes:

Which contains only my name, a picture, my birthday, my registry number and where my primary residence is.

It can't by used to track my movement, all it can be used for is to check or to confirm my identity.

Suggesting this is a tool for "control of the masses" is a insane claim.

And to answer your other "suggestion", most parts of Europe ARE a better place than the US, at least we don't allow ourselves to slip into the first steps of fascism to "protect ourselves from evil jihadiac islamiac terrurists". :eyes:

With today's modern computer systems, you don't really need a card - you only need an official number - which you have.

From there, I can associate that number with anything I like.

I don't have to show an ID card to get into a football stadium here in the US - but apparently, in the name of national security, you have to do that in France and Holland (at least that's what the law says).

We aren't in the habit of using water cannon on our protesters, or telling people which books they can't read.

Trains still make no sense to me. If you get discount from the ticket, you have to be able to proof that you're allowed to it (e.g. student id) but that's the only reason. If you pay the whole price, there's no need to reveal your identity to anyone. I guess the reasons could be the same in both cases...but they are not good enough.
The requirement for an ID card to board any public transportation shouldn't be mandated by the government. Airlines are not owned by the government, only regulated. The owner should be able to control access to his vehicles based on who bought tickets. Trains, planes, buses all fit in that category.

Heh, to be honest...that COULD be the custom with airlines around here too...*krhmmmm* well, not the first stupid mistake by me...
I'm not sure about it as I've only flown inside the country on continueing flights (term? the next or previous flight is to or from another country). Then they always check the ID on the first airport.
...
Now I know. You don't need any ID to board on inland flights in Finland. So it wasn't a mistake.

Germany, France, Belgium, Greece, Luxembourg, Portugal and Spain have national ID cards. In Sweden, while everyone has a national number, they don't have a single ID card.
Now you have mentioned 7 out of 50. Still quite far from "most". But anyway, I understand that's not the point and I don't approve e.g. French customs either.

In Finland we also have a national number. That's something you get with birth certificate. It's printed on your passport and driver's license. I fail to see what's wrong with the number itself if you only have to use it in few occasions (creating a bank account, getting a passport etc).

edited: you don't need one while travelling, you need one to get passport.

Ironically, the Parliaments of several European nations, including France and Holland, have accepted a law introducing the obligation to identify oneself in numerous situations including, for instance, at work, at football stadiums, on public transport an in banks. While the card is voluntary in name, it is in effect a compulsory instrument that will be carried at all times by Dutch citizens. The French ID card is mandatory.
And you want this in your country?

Thanks for the information btw. More and more reasons to bash France.

News Article (http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1009_22-5702505.html)




The end of freedom is near friends.


Why complain now? We've been on to you for years? We only thought that we'd better make it legal so we can do other more impressive illegal stuff..all in the name of Homeland Security of course!

Now you have mentioned 7 out of 50. Still quite far from "most". But anyway, I understand that's not the point and I don't approve e.g. French customs either.

In Finland we also have a national number. That's something you get with birth certificate. It's printed on your passport and driver's license. I fail to see what's wrong with the number itself if you only have to use it in few occasions (creating a bank account, travelling abroad etc).

If all commerical institutions use a common number (the Social Security Number here in the US), then I can track all of your purchases through a computer. I can see all of your travel, unless you walked or drove your own car. I can see when and where you refuel that car, unless you pay cash.

Basically, with any standard number, I can track everything unless you pay cash and avoid places that demand that number in exchange for commerical services.

The French under Mitterand were trying to avoid the ID card, but evidently it went through with Chirac.

The funny thing is, people actually believe this will do anything to illegal immigration or terrorism. If illegal aliens are here illegally, what makes you think they'll be worried that they can't get a driver's license? What, now with national ID cards, all the illegal aliens are gonna say "well damn, better not try to go to America any more, they've got national ID cards!" :rolleyes: Give me a fucking break.

The funny thing is, people actually believe this will do anything to illegal immigration or terrorism. If illegal aliens are here illegally, what makes you think they'll be worried that they can't get a driver's license? What, now with national ID cards, all the illegal aliens are gonna say "well damn, better not try to go to America any more, they've got national ID cards!" :rolleyes: Give me a fucking break.
Got a point. I've used the same argument against gun control. If someone is willing to break the law by hiring illegal aliens, why would they stop?

If all commerical institutions use a common number (the Social Security Number here in the US), then I can track all of your purchases through a computer. I can see all of your travel, unless you walked or drove your own car. I can see when and where you refuel that car, unless you pay cash.

Basically, with any standard number, I can track everything unless you pay cash and avoid places that demand that number in exchange for commerical services.

The French under Mitterand were trying to avoid the ID card, but evidently it went through with Chirac.
If. That's the biggest word there. If that would be the situation I would be concerned but it isn't. Police can track my purchases through computer but it has nothing to do with my national number. They can track me by my credit (or bank account) card not by my national number. Even in cases when you have to proof your identity the number will not be recorded into any database.

If. That's the biggest word there. If that would be the situation I would be concerned but it isn't. Police can track my purchases through computer but it has nothing to do with my national number. They can track me by my credit (or bank account) card not by my national number. Even in cases when you have to proof your identity the number will not be recorded into any database.
At least you have a safeguard. Even though we in the US don't have an "official" ID card yet, we've always had the Social Security Number. And despite the fact that there are laws and regulations that stipulate that the number can never be used as a form of identification, it is the de facto identification number in the US in every monetary transaction - your bank account, every credit account, your credit history, any loan application, your mortgage, etc.

Having laws that say "no one is allowed to track you by this number" doesn't seem to have done us any good at all. Our whole economic system is pinned directly to the Social Security Number.

If you're not careful, it will happen to your country.

I'm really not quite sure what the big deal is. I'll bet people had this same argument when they were issuing social security numbers and driver's licences.
Yes, many people had a big problem with being numbered by the Social Security Act. The proponents regarded them as 'alarmists' and promised that the Social Security Number would never be used as an ID#. Now you can be uniquely identified as you amoung 300 million Americans (if you're an American, that is). And anyone who gets your number can potentially use it to access your bank accounts. Isn't that great?

Why not use a contact chip rather than RFID? Frankly, the RFID concerns me. This article makes the few paranoid hairs I have stand up on the back of my neck.... and Bruce Scneier is a pretty respectable guy, so when he talks I listen.

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2004/10/rfid_passports.html

"Unfortunately, RFID chips can be read by any reader, not just the ones at passport control. The upshot of this is that travelers carrying around RFID passports are broadcasting their identity.

"Think about what that means for a minute. It means that passport holders are continuously broadcasting their name, nationality, age, address and whatever else is on the RFID chip. It means that anyone with a reader can learn that information, without the passport holder's knowledge or consent. It means that pickpockets, kidnappers and terrorists can easily--and surreptitiously--pick Americans or nationals of other participating countries out of a crowd."

Makes the beheading game a little easier to play.

Regarding the range of RFID:

"It is a clear threat to both privacy and personal safety, and quite simply, that is why it is bad idea. Proponents of the system claim that the chips can be read only from within a distance of a few centimeters, so there is no potential for abuse. This is a spectacularly naïve claim. All wireless protocols can work at much longer ranges than specified. In tests, RFID chips have been read by receivers 20 meters away. Improvements in technology are inevitable."

And the paranoia part:

"The Bush administration is deliberately choosing a less secure technology without justification. If there were a good offsetting reason to choose that technology over a contact chip, then the choice might make sense.

Unfortunately, there is only one possible reason: The administration wants surreptitious access themselves. It wants to be able to identify people in crowds. It wants to surreptitiously pick out the Americans, and pick out the foreigners. It wants to do the very thing that it insists, despite demonstrations to the contrary, can't be done.

Normally I am very careful before I ascribe such sinister motives to a government agency. Incompetence is the norm, and malevolence is much rarer. But this seems like a clear case of the Bush administration putting its own interests above the security and privacy of its citizens, and then lying about it."

Sounds like lead sales will be on the rise in the US then.