NationStates Jolt Archive

Any bets on whether the budget is going to pass or not?

I'm thinking it will. A Tory or Blocer will be absent allowing the Speaker to break the tie, and the Speaker is a Liberal.

The budget has a great deal of social spending that addresses many of the concerns that Canadian have as well as substantial tax cuts for the poor, small and medium business. I think it would be political suicide for the Tories to a: force an unwanted election and b: vote down a popular budget especially when c: most Canadians (according to Ipsos-Reid and Leger polling firms) want to wait for the Gomery inquiry to wrap up before crucifying the Liberals.

I agree. The Liberals would have more ammunition if the budget was voted down. Although, I have a feeling we will be going to the polls pretty soon. Right now it's democracy at its worst. Nothing is getting done, and I blame the Conservatives for that. We're paying these politicians to make laws, not argue and slander each other.

I hope those damn liberals go down the crapper in a fiery ball of rage.

I dont see how anyone could still have any faith or support in those guys. After all the money stolen and bad decisions, yet on the news there are still people who say "why bother changing the government, who knows what someone else will do" or "even if they did steal all that money, i'm still gonna vote for em". Whats the point of this democratic government that the veterans fought for if we're not going to use it.

It may just be wishful thinking, but I'm also expecting it to pass. Last I heard, it was 153-152 against the budget, with 1 independent as the decision-maker. From what I've heard of him, I expect he'd make the tie. All parties involved know how important this vote is and I expect that only an extreme situation would make any miss it.

If we do end up in an election though, I can state right now that I'll be going back out and voting for the Liberals once again.

I agree. The Liberals would have more ammunition if the budget was voted down. Although, I have a feeling we will be going to the polls pretty soon. Right now it's democracy at its worst. Nothing is getting done, and I blame the Conservatives for that. We're paying these politicians to make laws, not argue and slander each other.
Yeah, problem is, I think there are a pile of idealogues on the Blue side of the aisle. I couldn't help but notice that the Tories were full of outrage, piss and vinegar but didn't declare outright war until Martin made the deal with the NDP to reverse a corporate tax cut and actually honour an election promise to increase social spending.

At first they were willing to wait for Gomery to report and then "Oh, my god, the poor/environment might benefit, FORCE AN ELECTION>

I hope those damn liberals go down the crapper in a fiery ball of rage.

I dont see how anyone could still have any faith or support in those guys. After all the money stolen and bad decisions, yet on the news there are still people who say "why bother changing the government, who knows what someone else will do" or "even if they did steal all that money, i'm still gonna vote for em". Whats the point of this democratic government that the veterans fought for if we're not going to use it.

Faith or support in those guys? Well, I don't. I do support the budget however. I also believe in the presumption of innosence, I think a democratic government should support that. Even opposition members should support that come to think of it.

Not to get conspiratorial, but do you think Stronachs and MacKays careers would prosper if Harper forced an election and failed to gain power?

To be honest I do not really care anymore. The 38th parliament is the biggest joke of a democracy I have ever seen. Sponsorships scandal, MPs not showing up to work and getting paid, temper tantrums in question period and childish antics. Karla Homolka gets out soon and yet all the feds want to do is talk about an election which most Canadians do not want. The entire system is corrupt and screwed.

We have the conservatives which want to gut medicare for a two tier healthcare system just like the states have (Harris and Manning even stated this).

You have the liberals who are corrupt beyond belief and I so do hope that history books record the devil himself, Chretien as being the person behind this. He always wanted a legacy and this legacy could not go to a more deserving individual.

You have the ndp with mr used car salesman Jack Layton in charge of a party that could not balance the books of a lemonade stand let alone a country. Bob Rae is in power for 5 years and doubles the debt of Ontario (dont whine about Romano, he is the exception. previous examples such as Rae in Ontario, Clark in BC, and federal NDP budget math in previous elections is the real proof on their 'expertise' about how to manage money)

you have the bloc which to be honest do look after quebec even if they screw the rest of the country by taking a ton of transfer payment money not to mention screw the economy by constant seperation talk

you have the greens which need to change their party name else they will forever be looked upon by most canadians as tree huggers and that is all

JOY, I get to choose between what will be the most tolerable for the next 5 years: hemroids, diarrhea, ulcers, migranes, or nausea

I say the budget fails and an election is called. But thats ok the conservatives and the bloc have then made the election all about the budget. And who really wants to go back to the days of Mulrooney? Canada has a really old population, they'll remember well. The budget being tabled is solid, and the Liberals can't be questioned about their financial management (i mean deficits and in terms of budgets)
Therefore I say an election is called for in June, and the conservatives go further down the drain. And as someone mentioned earlier, McKay and Stronac keep their heads low and will gain enormously down the road

You have the ndp with mr used car salesman Jack Layton in charge of a party that could not balance the books of a lemonade stand let alone a country. Bob Rae is in power for 5 years and doubles the debt of Ontario (dont whine about Romano, he is the exception. previous examples such as Rae in Ontario, Clark in BC, and federal NDP budget math in previous elections is the real proof on their 'expertise' about how to manage money)
Hey now, you're being unfair to Rae. Name another government that wasn't running a deficit at the time. Mulrooney, Reagan, Thatcher and countless other 'conservative' governments all ran deficits, why pick on Rae? Hell, where's your moral outrage about Harris TRIPLING the debt he inheritted from Rae while reducing gov't income tax revenues by 30%?
At least Rae had the GUTS to say during his last campaign that it would take at least six years to get out of a deficit situation. What did Harris do? A pile of unprincipaled B.S. calling for accountability and transparency and then doing the exact opposite when he was in office.

Finally, I'll agree that Jack comes across as over-enthused during debate, but the man has a proven track record on toronto city council. Read the NDP platform, check his track record then decide. don't go by the political spin, you're just playing into the hands of the PR industry.

Mackay after lying to Orchard about not merging with the alliance and then about renegotiating the free trade deal has absolutely no credibility left.

Seriousness aside for a second though, I just love this comic about Mackay and Martin at:

http://cagle.slate.msn.com/politicalcartoons/PCcartoons/deadder.asp

Select April (04) 18, 05 :p

BELINDA is now a LIBERAL!!!

This budget WILL pass. Martin is smiling, Harper is crying, and the Queen is wondering why she came during this mess!

Any bets on whether the budget is going to pass or not?

I'm thinking it will. A Tory or Blocer will be absent allowing the Speaker to break the tie, and the Speaker is a Liberal....Ed Broadbent has volunteered not to vole if one of the Tory members can't make it. What a class act.

I'm still betting it'll pass though.

I hope those damn liberals go down the crapper in a fiery ball of rage.

I dont see how anyone could still have any faith or support in those guys. After all the money stolen and bad decisions, yet on the news there are still people who say "why bother changing the government, who knows what someone else will do" or "even if they did steal all that money, i'm still gonna vote for em". Whats the point of this democratic government that the veterans fought for if we're not going to use it.
And what do you know, they're still better than the conservatives.

If the opposition was better, then perhaps the liberals would get voted out. As it is, aren't they predicting a loss of conservative seats?

You know, I would be happy is the governement is destitued....
Québec wouldn't support conservatives so we will be seperate !
That's my own will....

a referendum in 2008 near from june 24th would be so great.

I agree. The Liberals would have more ammunition if the budget was voted down. Although, I have a feeling we will be going to the polls pretty soon. Right now it's democracy at its worst. Nothing is getting done, and I blame the Conservatives for that. We're paying these politicians to make laws, not argue and slander each other.

I'm no Canadian, but I imagine you have a FPTP system, so shouldn't you be blaming the system for creating a minority government? The Conservatives are obviously there to represent, being elected by the people, same as the liberals.

And what planet do you live on if you think that political parties will ever cease to be adversarial?

Surely a vote of no-confidence (and therefore another election) would be democracy sorting out a problem. . Never know, the Liberals may form another government afterwards (maybe not a minority one this time).

And what do you know, they're still better than the conservatives.

If the opposition was better, then perhaps the liberals would get voted out. As it is, aren't they predicting a loss of conservative seats?

hmm i guess ol' bubble boy aint got any leaks to smell the liberal corruption, yikes wtf.

hmm i guess ol' bubble boy aint got any leaks to smell the liberal corruption, yikes wtf.
Bubble boy?

In my books, corruption is better than bigotry and outright hatred.

I'm going to be in shock for a while.
[full disclosure, I vote NDP and want this budget to pass]
So, I know she's pro-choice but still I'm blown away that she'd ditch the Tories, hell Mulrooney (the dark one himself) is one of her political advisors.

!!!!

I'm no Canadian, but I imagine you have a FPTP system, so shouldn't you be blaming the system for creating a minority government? The Conservatives are obviously there to represent, being elected by the people, same as the liberals.
What's wrong with minority governments? I tend to think they are healthy, like by giving us universal healthcare and the pension plan.
And what planet do you live on if you think that political parties will ever cease to be adversarial?
Who ever said that?
Surely a vote of no-confidence (and therefore another election) would be democracy sorting out a problem. . Never know, the Liberals may form another government afterwards (maybe not a minority one this time). There is something to what you say here. Non-confidence votes are part of the process, and they are entirely welcome if they are principaled. Read my previous posts on my opinion of Tory principals in this case.

I'm no Canadian, but I imagine you have a FPTP system, so shouldn't you be blaming the system for creating a minority government? The Conservatives are obviously there to represent, being elected by the people, same as the liberals.

And what planet do you live on if you think that political parties will ever cease to be adversarial?

Surely a vote of no-confidence (and therefore another election) would be democracy sorting out a problem. . Never know, the Liberals may form another government afterwards (maybe not a minority one this time).
Prediciton: Another minority government. It will either be Liberals again or the Conservatives, it doesn't matter. All that is for sure is that nothing else will get done, and another election will take place within 6-18 months.

I bet military spending balloons even further out of control and next to nothing is done for other sectors of spending except pork barrel projects in the South. We will go into debt financing ill-advised overseas adventures. There will be no money left for social security or a national health plan.




Just reminding all you Canadians it could be a lot worse.

Prediciton: Another minority government. It will either be Liberals again or the Conservatives, it doesn't matter. All that is for sure is that nothing else will get done, and another election will take place within 6-18 months.

True, another minority gov't but the NDP are due to pick up a couple of seats. Many, many strategic voters are kicking themselves over the last election. They'll be genuine king-makers next time around.

Harper will be out, he's dug himself in too far to reverse his present course. If he forces an election, he'll lose seats, if he doesn't force an election he'll lose the conservative leadership. Either that slimey mofo MacKay will be the new leader, or some redneck will be.

They need a majority of 154 over 307.

Liberal: 132 + 1 (belinda) = 133
Conservative: 99 - 1 (belinda) - 1 (a sick MP) - 2 (not sure how to vote) =95
Bloc: 54
NPD: 19 - 1 (1 will abstain for fairness for the sick Cons.) = 18
Ind: 3

Now for the budget we have (sure vote): 133 Lib + 18 NPD + 1 ind =152
Against: 95 Cons + 54 Bloc = 149
Uncertain: 2 ind (they want to make pressure on Martin for something that would help Newfounland, dont remember what. Looks like they want to vote against rigth now) + 2 cons (who say theire respective voter want them to approve the budget, will be hard for them to betray theire party) = 4

So right now it looks like the vote will fail. But in an other hand, A LOT of pressure will be put on these 4 man, and to convince one of them should'nt be that hard.

I bet military spending balloons even further out of control and next to nothing is done for other sectors of spending except pork barrel projects in the South. We will go into debt financing ill-advised overseas adventures. There will be no money left for social security or a national health plan.
Just reminding all you Canadians it could be a lot worse.

Oh, trust me, we know. We know. On a related note, I get CNN and saw all the reports on Galloways testimony. I also watched the Canadian news coverage of the same testimony. I've got bad news for you, your media is heavily, massively censored. The difference was unbelievable.

The papers are saying that it's 152-152 plus 2 independents. In a tie, the speaker (who is a Liberal) will vote.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/05/18/newkilgour-vote050518.html

Looks like Chuck Cadman is prepping himself for the role of Canada's white knight - and the man's a Tory.

Heh.

While it's all quite terrifying, I must admit to not having been quite so entertained by Canadian politics for a very long time...

Has any one been watching the national and Quebec & Ontario polls? I have. If an election were to be held in June, the Liberals would more than likely win back a majority government. But I believe it's moot. The budget will pass.

You know what else kind of bothers me about all this?

Why is Martin being blamed for any of this? I'd like to see Martin get an honest chance on his own rather than being pilloried for Chretien's pals abuses.


Incidentally - why do you think Martin should have known? The sponsorship scandal started at the end of Martin's tenure and extended beyond it. Martin was definitely out of favor with Cretien at the time, and it is not the business of the Finance Minister to do line-item audits on the other departments anyway. His job is far more high-level than that - invloving more of overal economic policy than just departmental accounting.

That's why you have an Auditer General after all.

The total Federal Budget runs to about $150 Billion Dollars. The sponsorship scandal amounted to program with a budget of $100 million. In other words, .6 of 1% of the Federal Budget. To you and me, that is big bucks. To the Finance Minister, this is like expecting the CEO of a major corporation to have audited the line-item spending of the petty cash account.

The minister for the department which ran that program would be expected to audit it for details. The Finance Minister is not expected to have to audit that level of detail. And the check in the system is the Auditor General who DID raise the concerns about the spending - AFTER Martin had already left the post of Finance Minister.

And as a final note, let's remember who called the inquiry once he was back in a position to do so. That would be Paul Martin again wouldn't it?

But it sure suits Harper's agenda to try and put it all on Martin, and to be honest - Let's not forget that it was largely Martin's fiscal policies that balanced the budget and paid down a good chunk of National Debt that Canada got shafted with thanks to Lyin' Brian....