NationStates Jolt Archive

*sighs*

Okay, obviously as a TG person, being TG isn't an issue for me. Frisbeeteria had to close down a previous thread created by 'Sunset Jackals' after it got savagely hijacked this afternoon.

The thread was, "Transgender people are people too! But let's see what you think ".

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=419556

Anyhow, I thought I'd try to somehow re-animate the thread for those of you who wanted to discuss your thoughts on the matter. I myself don't really care what other people's thoughts on the matter might be, so don't go expecting me to engage you in conversation.

Okay, have at it...

I think TG's need some serious mental help.

i agree...something has got to be seriously wrong with you if u wanted to do that...not saying that anything's wrong with being that way, just with becoming that way.

You mean there are some people who arn't TG?

I think TG's need some serious mental help.
mental help doesnt work, its been tried for years. for the vast majority of transgendered people the only 'cure' is surgery

Meh... Transgendered people don't "need mental help" in my opinion. It's who they are, not some kind of 'disorder.' (It's also not the same as just crossdressing, in case some people mistakenly think that.)

As I said in the last thread - altering one's physical appearance to more closely match how one feels inside is NOT wrong or sick or twisted... or at least, that's how -I- feel about it. I don't expect anyone to conform to my view, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, so.

mental help doesnt work, its been tried for years. for the vast majority of transgendered people the only 'cure' is surgery
Some TG people don't feel the need to have surgery performed...homone therapy is a common treatment to transition. As far as a disorder, Gender Idenity Disorder is in the DSM-IV. However, it only describes a small section of the TG folks out there. The DSM only aknolwledges a disorder if a person is attracted to their same gender and wishes to change to the opposite gender (so if a male is attracted to males and wants to become female). However, not all TG individuals feel this way...I myself am not TG, so I can't speak from personal experience as to how it feels to be TG. But I find, the general public is gravely misinformed on what Transexuality is and is not.

Some TG people don't feel the need to have surgery performed...homone therapy is a common treatment to transition. As far as a disorder, Gender Idenity Disorder is in the DSM-IV. However, it only describes a small section of the TG folks out there. The DSM only aknolwledges a disorder if a person is attracted to their same gender and wishes to change to the opposite gender (so if a male is attracted to males and wants to become female). However, not all TG individuals feel this way...I myself am not TG, so I can't speak from personal experience as to how it feels to be TG. But I find, the general public is gravely misinformed on what Transexuality is and is not.
yes, youre right. surgery isnt necessary for all transgendered people, but it still is for the majority. and yes, for some just hormones can be enough.

whats the DSM? whatever it is, that bit about it only acknowledging transgendered people attracted to the opposite gender is news to me. as for those who are attracted to the same gender (ie a male to female attracted to a female), well, i know all about that.

The DSM is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders...currently in it's fourth rewrite, hence DSM-IV.

The DSM is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders...currently in it's fourth rewrite, hence DSM-IV.
yuppers
and if anyone thinks they aren't in the DSM (or won't be or haven't been)---I suggest you read through the 800+ disorders that people can have

The DSM is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders...currently in it's fourth rewrite, hence DSM-IV.
thanks

No problems. It's like, the Psychologist's Bible...haha. If you need to know something about a mental disorder, it'll be in there somewhere.

People are people. They can do what they want to their bodies. I mean, few people complain about other people getting surgery just to look better, so if a person was born a different sex then they feel they aught to be, then it's their body and their decision. There's nothing WRONG with it, it doesn't hurt anyone else, and if it makes the person getting it happy, that's really all that matters.. What is it with some people and trying to stop others from being happy...?

I don't really care if someone has a sex change operation or not. It's really none of my business. I may be a dictator, but I'm a benevolent dictator!

~Czardas, Supreme Benevolent Ruler of the Universe

People are people. They can do what they want to their bodies. I mean, few people complain about other people getting surgery just to look better, so if a person was born a different sex then they feel they aught to be, then it's their body and their decision. There's nothing WRONG with it, it doesn't hurt anyone else, and if it makes the person getting it happy, that's really all that matters.. What is it with some people and trying to stop others from being happy...?I know, it violates the democratic rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

~Czardas, Supreme Ruler of the Universe

Kiwi-kiwi, you've just summed up my opinion quite nicely...I agree with you :)

Kiwi-kiwi, you've just summed up my opinion quite nicely...I agree with you :)

Whoo! Thankyou. I've actually said something well for once. :)

Transgenderism seems to me to be an overly extreme solution to an emotional discomfort. I understand entirely that you weren't happy with your sexual identity before you decided to go ahead with it; heck, I feel like that myself some days when the guys are all off boozing, the girls are out dressing up in the mall and I'm stuck completely disinterested in either option. But there are ways of dealing with it that don't necessarily require a complete physical transformation and that can bring personal and emotional satisfaction (at a significantly lower price, it must be added). Plus, if you do go ahead with a full-on gender swap, there come all sorts of other problems.

I personally would look at transgenderism in the same way that many would look at Prozac. It's not the quick fix you think it's going to be, for one; having not been through it, I can't say for sure, but I imagine a number of people after having been enamoured with the results for about a week are now starting to find that it's a lot more difficult than they were expecting.

Similarly, the effect it causes can be brought about by more subtle means like minor lifestyle changes, a little discipline in your daily attitudes and perhaps trying to explore new relationships, looking outside of yourself every now and then. And if, in the end of the day, you're still not happy, you're going to realise that the problem lies deeper than what you attribute your difficulties to; then you're going to feel even more demoralised.

On the other hand, for some their gender identity is a real curse. If it's gotten to the stage where you absolutely and genuinely can't stand that aspect of your physical form, then I suppose it would be beneficial to undergo cosmetic surgery to have it fixed. In any case, it's not a decision to be taken lightly. If it works, fair enough; it's no harm to either me or society. But take a very good look at the reasons for your discomfort before you jump into the deep end.

having not been through it, I can't say for sure
exactly...thats the mistake most people make, they cant imagine what its like, so they see it as an extreme solution to a problem which 'cant be that bad'

I think TG's need some serious mental help.
Maybe but does that disqualify them from being people

I personally would look at transgenderism in the same way that many would look at Prozac. It's not the quick fix you think it's going to be, for one; having not been through it, I can't say for sure, but I imagine a number of people after having been enamoured with the results for about a week are now starting to find that it's a lot more difficult than they were expecting.

Interestingly, many places willing to perform sex-change operations won't do it until you have lived as the opposite sex for at least a year, generally on hormone treatments. In other words, they won't allow it to be just a "quick-fix". You have to be absolutely sure it is what you want.

Interestingly, many places willing to perform sex-change operations won't do it until you have lived as the opposite sex for at least a year, generally on hormone treatments. In other words, they won't allow it to be just a "quick-fix". You have to be absolutely sure it is what you want.

And for a doctor to prescribe those hormones, you're going to show that you've been in therapy for 3+ months due to gender identity issues.

Plus, any reputable surgeon is going to need letters from two professionals (one either an M.D. or a Ph.D.), stating their belief that the procedure is right for you.

It's not an spur-of-the-moment thing... more often than not it's a last resort.

I don't know what the point of these threads is. A reasonable person would not care what gender or sexuality an individual is and would consider them equal.

Do you guys just like debating with unreasonable people?

Maybe but does that disqualify them from being people


Well, they should be given electric shock, you know, to cure them of their sickness.

We know so little about the causes of transgender that we can't really judge. We can only do what's best to help TG people make the most of their lives. If this means sex change, then so be it.

Kamsaki, I must disagree with most of what you've written, I'm afraid.

Although I'm not transgendered and have never really felt the emotions and confusion that lead up to it becoming a viable solution, I -have- studied it. And what other people are saying is true: It's not a quick-fix, it requires years of dedication and preparation to even be considered for the actual surgery. People can't just decide that they want to change genders and do it the next day.

And also, it's a much deeper feeling than "Oh, I don't drink beer with the lads, I think I might be a girl..." Not feeling interested in gender-stereotyped activities is hardly gender confusion, it's just a small form of androgyny...everyone gets it. Not all girls wear pink, not all guys are aggressive. TG people have often felt since early childhood that they are not of the correct physical gender.

Anyhow...I'm hardly an authority on the subject, and my knowledge of intersex is from purely study rather than experience, so I'll leave the debate up to other people now.

I don't gender benders as they keep popping up in porn

I don't gender benders as they keep popping up in porn

Don't what? Sniff? Eat? Applaud? Invite out for dinner? :p

Kamsaki, I must disagree with most of what you've written, I'm afraid.

...

Anyhow...I'm hardly an authority on the subject, and my knowledge of intersex is from purely study rather than experience, so I'll leave the debate up to other people now.

Fair enough. I did say I haven't experienced it either, so it's all speculation on my part anyway. I'll take your lead and bow out too.

Well, they should be given electric shock, you know, to cure them of their sickness.

According to your response in the poll above, this 'sickness' of ours is somehow compelling us to destroy Western civilization as well.

Interesting?

Feh. Hardly.

Well, they should be given electric shock, you know, to cure them of their sickness.

Transgenderism is not a sickness. You might as well have pills to cure homosexuality.

According to your response in the poll above, this 'sickness' of ours is somehow compelling us to destroy Western civilization as well.

Interesting?

Feh. Hardly.
well, at least he got destroying western civilisation right.

Meh.

As long as no animals, children or non-cons get involved I think most things you do are ok.

I'm often shocked at the prejudice TG's face - In the end people should be allowed to express thenselves in anyway they like as long as they don't offend others.

I'm often shocked at the prejudice TG's face - In the end people should be allowed to express thenselves in anyway they like as long as they don't offend others.


Or try to pick my buddies up in my local watering hole.

Transgenderism is not a sickness. You might as well have pills to cure homosexuality.

Well, it ain't exactly normal.

Or try to pick my up in my local watering hole.

Nobody should be banned public places after all nobody is forcing you to be picked up

I don't know what the point of these threads is. A reasonable person would not care what gender or sexuality an individual is and would consider them equal.

Do you guys just like debating with unreasonable people?
Like you DON'T....come on Vitt, admit it...no one stays on General as long as we have without our odd dip into the 'pool of unreasonability'...we keep trying to reach the drain, but they keep pulling us away from it....

And like people here don't already know this but: I'm all for transgendered people. Just like I am for any *enter description here* people. However, I'm a little MORE for them than I am perhaps for other groups, simply because I have gotten to know quite a few TG people (my brother included). Why anyone would want to deny themselves the pleasure of the company of ANY decent person, regardless of their gender, sexuality, colour *insert other descriptors, physical, mental and otherwise here* is beyond me.

Or try to pick my buddies up in my local watering hole.
As long as you also deny yourself and your cronies the "right" to try to pick up other people at bars.

Or at least until you folks get some better pick up lines...

I can't answer the poll, they are all of them and none of them.
They are people who have a specific problem and deal with it the way they feel best.
As all people are different, have different social and ethical values and oputlooks on life, so does a transgendered male or female

In this country they do have extensive Psychiatric help, so that they can discuss the options and decide how they want to become what they feel is best for the way they think and want to be.
It also helps to make sure that that IS what they want and have not mistaken a different problem.

I have three aquaintances who are TG, one a good friend, one a good friends in law and one who I have a casual relationship with (as in I'll stop and say hello and chat, but I wouldn't term her as a friend).
The three of them all have different ideas on what will/has made them happier about themselves.

My friend has chosen to have the full monty, (what we all termed as a lobitoffame during the time that she didn't want it discussing in front of my ten year old). She went through hell and back to have this done and my heart blead fro the emotional and physical pain that came with it all.
But, she is now a woman and feels that the rest of her life is a far better prospect and I almost wept with joy for her when she had her first real relationship with a man. They both knew what she was and they were both happy with each other and the relationship. An eventual success and though she has all the normal annoyances like everyone else in this world has, she has rid herself of the main one.

The second (friend's in law) is a lost cause.
I have no idea why this person even exists she is a total waste of space, but not because she is a TG but because she is a manipulating warped 'person'.
However, I digress.
I'm not sure where her idea of a woman comes from, I first met her just before she had the operation, quite some years back now. This 'person' walked into my friedns house looking and behaving like some barbie doll out of an '80's american Dallas type show and began to put us down for not being 'real' women.
You see, I was dressed in overalls, covered in muck and grime and smelling of goodness knows what, my firend in similar state, we were removing a rotting kitchen floor and replacing it as part of a renovation.
Apparently real women don't do that sort of thing, don't break their nails, don't sit around in overalls and don't look like they're been used as a flu brush.
*sigh*
She never has and never will be happy, she thinks that the world owes her for the terrible trick played on her and abuses and uses everything and everyone.

The third (the casual hello how are you doing) is choosing to not have the operation, she is living as a woman in a 'lesbian' relationship. She is young and doesn't know what she wants (in my opinion) and I hope she will find where she is and who she is someday.

So you see your poll doesn't fit, transgendered male and females are as diverse as any one of us are leave them to find out who or what their 'inner' self should be and think yourself lucky that you don't have to go through that.

Well, it ain't exactly normal.
There is enough that it is not a statistical outlier either

I can't answer the poll, they are all of them and none of them.

-snips-

So you see your poll doesn't fit, transgendered male and females are as diverse as any one of us are leave them to find out who or what their 'inner' self should be and think yourself lucky that you don't have to go through that.

*sighs*

No, they aren't. They're certainly not smaller than, or approximately the same size as, breadboxes. Not without having lost a few limbs, anyway, but this thread isn't about amputees, it's about TG people.

Yes, we are as diverse as any one of you, and yes I consider myself lucky to have been able to find out who or what I am or should be. The poll is a bit of fun. Maybe you should check a bit more closely (i.e. read the initial post)before jumping in with both feet and making incorrect assumptions. Maybe you should develop more of a sense of humour.

And maybe, like I said at the outset, maybe I don't give a damn what anyone thinks of us, or me for that matter.

Feh.

Ah!! Sorry! I didn't realize I had...hijacked a thread...let alone savagely...honestly, I was tryin to get opinions on this subject and...well...I apparently don't have the best vision because I never saw the thread I "hijacked". So...just an apology here, didn't realize what I'd done

Ah!! Sorry! I didn't realize I had...hijacked a thread...let alone savagely...honestly, I was tryin to get opinions on this subject and...well...I apparently don't have the best vision because I never saw the thread I "hijacked". So...just an apology here, didn't realize what I'd done

Jackals, you misunderstand. Your thread from this morning was hijacked by someone calling themselves 'Gaston Glock'. I guess you weren't around to see what became of your thread.

Stop apologizing.

Aye aye! I thought people were mad at me and lol, I don't want anyone to be mad at me. Call me childish or whatever, but I really don't. I just read through my thread and saw the "hijacking" done by Gaston. Um...to kinda reaffirm my position, I'll just copy and paste my opinion from my thread, cept with nice little cuts to make it easier to read :)

OK, so i'm liberal, and I believe highly in equality, love, peace, the whole shibang man. *Takes out his weed and smokes it from a professionally rolled doobie-HA! YEAH RIGHT!* Ok, so I'm not a hippie drug-smoker, but I AM very vocal in my fairness views. (EDIT: I put in the part about me being liberal so that later, people wouldn't try and use that as an insult)

I believe in gay marriage, and I've said so on a thread or two here...however, this post isn't about gays...(Man I can't keep up with my own thoughts) This post is about transgender individuals. Males turned females, females turned males...what's your opinion? I'd like to hear any and all views on this...

Well...actually...I'd LIKE to hear views that are well-supported and calm and clear (So...probably not a majority of the views I've heard by Christians...not that ALL Christians are like that, but a majority of the ones I'VE talked to are anyways) (EDIT: This part is not a bash to Christians, just stating a fact.)

But anyways, I suppose I'll start: I believe that transgender people are people, just like you and I. Though their misfortune was being born to a gender that doesn't suit their personality, appearance, sexual preference, whatever...Just because they feel the need to change their physical apects, I don't think that gives anyone the right to be hostile towards them or cruel in any form.

I know I myself have considered becoming female, but I'm still young and not all-knowing so...I still don't know for certain.(EDIT: Just thought I'd put that little bit of info out there in case anyone was really wondering why I was starting this)

Well...actually...I'd LIKE to hear views that are well-supported and calm and clear (So...probably not a majority of the views I've heard by Christians...not that ALL Christians are like that, but a majority of the ones I'VE talked to are anyways) (EDIT: This part is not a bash to Christians, just stating a fact.)

Well, as a Christian, my views are approximately:

But anyways, I suppose I'll start: I believe that transgender people are people, just like you and I. Though their misfortune was being born to a gender that doesn't suit their personality, appearance, sexual preference, whatever...Just because they feel the need to change their physical apects, I don't think that gives anyone the right to be hostile towards them or cruel in any form.

Yay! Thank you!! That's something I LOVE to hear!