NationStates Jolt Archive

After reading a pro choice nation(1) attacking a fellow pro choice nation(2) for not being pro choice enough it seems. (1) attacked (2) because (2) believed in a time limit of something around 18-24 weeks and (1) hated this and wanted abortions right up until the birth of the child (or parasite as (1) used to describe an unborn child)

I was wondering, do other nations believe that women should be allowed to have abortions up until birth without restrictions like pro choice nation number 1?

Or that there should be a time period after which abortions are only allowed when the mother's life is in danger and other special circumstances?

Or do you think abortion should only be allowed under special circumstances?

Until the child leaves home or gets a fulltime job.

As I already said in the many, many, MANY threads on abortion - it should in principle only be allowed in te stages of pregnancy where the foetus can not be said to be harmed by the procedure or when the harm done to the mother (if e.g. she would die) would be too severe.

The "cannot be harmed" statement in practice means it would be allowed until the foetus develops a nervous system. For a more detailed explanation on this point of view, including why I do not consider the taking away of the potential to develop a nervous system to be harmful, see the other threads.

Denying a mother the right to abort her foetus is a criminal breach of civil liberties.

Until the child leaves home or gets a fulltime job.Not funny.

*goes to other room to laugh*


~Czardas, Supreme Ruler of the Universe

Seriously now? There have been far too many threads on abortion. We don't need another one. TIMN, I recognize that you're a new nation interested in debating, but abortion has been debated so many times, each time turning into a flame war, that it's not really worth having another abortion thread.

~Czardas, Supreme Ruler of the Universe

Seriously now? There have been far too many threads on abortion. We don't need another one. TIMN, I recognize that you're a new nation interested in debating, but abortion has been debated so many times, each time turning into a flame war, that it's not really worth having another abortion thread.

~Czardas, Supreme Ruler of the Universe

I am sorry, its just i read this argument going on and i found it quite strange that a pro choice nation was attacking another pro choice nation. I just wondered what other people thought of this and if it is common?

I am sorry, its just i read this argument going on and i found it quite strange that a pro choice nation was attacking another pro choice nation. I just wondered what other people thought of this and if it is common?It is common.

Breakdown of flamewars
Atheists vs. Theists
Muslim Theists vs. Christian Theists
Catholic Christian Theists vs. Protestant Christian Theists
Pro-Life Protestant Christian Theists vs. Pro-Choice Protestant Christian Theists
Moderate Pro-Choice Protestant Christian Theists vs. Extreme Pro-Choice Protestant Christian Theists

~Czardas, Supreme Ruler of the Universe

I am sorry, its just i read this argument going on and i found it quite strange that a pro choice nation was attacking another pro choice nation. I just wondered what other people thought of this and if it is common?

No need to apologize. If they don't want to read an abortion thread, they don't have to read it.

I'm curious as to what was actually said in this other debate. Link?

I do not have a serious problem with the current US scheme that limits abortion after the point of viability, but I personally think the decision should be left up to the mother and medical professionals.

Ok thanks a lot, now i know what not to post. I still find it rather amusing that they were fighting it out, from what i can tell, i'm not sure either of them were christians. (2) certainly wasn't.

Abortion. When to allow it, if it all?

Allow it when the woman says it's ok.

There is no other litmus test necessary.

No need to apologize. If they don't want to read an abortion thread, they don't have to read it.

I'm curious as to what was actually said in this other debate. Link?

I do not have a serious problem with the current US scheme that limits abortion after the point of viability, but I personally think the decision should be left up to the mother and medical professionals.

I'm sorry i cannot remember where exactly it was, i think it was in the UN forum.

I am sorry, its just i read this argument going on and i found it quite strange that a pro choice nation was attacking another pro choice nation. I just wondered what other people thought of this and if it is common?

Don't worry about it, this website thrives on new posters and new posters will recycle thread topics. Have fun with it.

EDIT: And I am the only "up until birth" vote at the time of voting.

So how many of us who have answered are actually women?

I am and have had a child.
I hated pregnancy, it hated me, I was one of those who felt that I had been taken over by some sort of alien being and that I was being eaten from the inside out!

But would I have had an abortion?
I did concider it at first, rocky marriage etc, etc, but in the end decided to let nature take it's course.

In my opinion, the decision to abort a child IS up to the woman involved and hopefully a supportive partner.
However, the time for that decision must be limitted and a halt called on that right unless there is a medical reason for it.

You see, while I was pregnant, the woman downstairs had a still birth. Their child was due to be born about a month after mine and I had about 8 weeks to go.
That child died because of a heart defect, but I attended it's funeral and looked at it's beautifully formed little body, it was barely over the legal abortion limit ( a couple of days, no more than a week), so what do you think?

I am all for human rights and I am all for free choice, but I'm afraid that there is little reason for deciding to get rid of a child after it has become what it will be. We have choices, but we also have responcibilites.

So how many of us who have answered are actually women?

I am and have had a child.
I hated pregnancy, it hated me, I was one of those who felt that I had been taken over by some sort of alien being and that I was being eaten from the inside out!

But would I have had an abortion?
I did concider it at first, rocky marriage etc, etc, but in the end decided to let nature take it's course.

In my opinion, the decision to abort a child IS up to the woman involved and hopefully a supportive partner.
However, the time for that decision must be limitted and a halt called on that right unless there is a medical reason for it.

You see, while I was pregnant, the woman downstairs had a still birth. Their child was due to be born about a month after mine and I had about 8 weeks to go.
That child died because of a heart defect, but I attended it's funeral and looked at it's beautifully formed little body, it was barely over the legal abortion limit ( a couple of days, no more than a week), so what do you think?

I am all for human rights and I am all for free choice, but I'm afraid that there is little reason for deciding to get rid of a child after it has become what it will be. We have choices, but we also have responcibilites.


Couldn't have put it better myself

I beleive that abortion should be allowed until the fetus develops a soul. I beleive that that occurs around age 25. I want my beleif codified into law now!

I beleive that abortion should be allowed until the fetus develops a soul. I beleive that that occurs around age 25. I want my beleif codified into law now!

:D

I'd allow it up until the use of the saline solution. That method in my opinion is cruel and disturbing.

Whatever is right for the woman at the time should guide her decision on whether or not to abort her child. Say, if she's in no position to support it emotionally or financially, if she feels she is too young to have a child and has become pregnant by mistake, if she has been raped and could not face the various issues that having a child to a rapist entails... Then if she feels it is the right thing, then she sould abort.

Anyway Hi to Nationstates, this is my first post :-D

Mike x

I am all for human rights and I am all for free choice, but I'm afraid that there is little reason for deciding to get rid of a child after it has become what it will be.

And what, pray tell, will it be? A doctor, lawyer, philosopher, serial killer?

A child has not become what it will be until it has become what it will be.

In the womb, all it can be is alive or dead. There is no "will be". To live your life in accordance with that which might be coming soon is to live a shallow and pointless life.

So how many of us who have answered are actually women?

I am and have had a child.
I hated pregnancy, it hated me, I was one of those who felt that I had been taken over by some sort of alien being and that I was being eaten from the inside out!

But would I have had an abortion?
I did concider it at first, rocky marriage etc, etc, but in the end decided to let nature take it's course.

In my opinion, the decision to abort a child IS up to the woman involved and hopefully a supportive partner.
However, the time for that decision must be limitted and a halt called on that right unless there is a medical reason for it.

You see, while I was pregnant, the woman downstairs had a still birth. Their child was due to be born about a month after mine and I had about 8 weeks to go.
That child died because of a heart defect, but I attended it's funeral and looked at it's beautifully formed little body, it was barely over the legal abortion limit ( a couple of days, no more than a week), so what do you think?

I am all for human rights and I am all for free choice, but I'm afraid that there is little reason for deciding to get rid of a child after it has become what it will be. We have choices, but we also have responcibilites.

Surely you recognize the difference between having a right to choose and a choice being the right one.

There are many circumstances that can make late-term abortion perfectly justifiable.

The question is whether a woman should have the right and responsibility for making the decision or whether it should be taken away at some point.

A good case can be made that abortion is wrong after about 24 weeks in the absence of special circumstances.

That is not the same as saying that abortion should be illegal after about 24 weeks in the absence of special circumstances.

I trust women such as yourself to make the right decisions.

Will you or I agree with the choice to abort in every case? No. That is a price of liberty. I don't agree with every use of the freedom of speech or the freedom of religion either.

I'd allow it up until the use of the saline solution. That method in my opinion is cruel and disturbing.

That method hasn't been used in the US since the 1960s.

Actually a foetus or just a bundle of cells can be classed as 'alive' simply because it is not dead; it exists and can multiply although not it doesn't yet exist in 'human' form... :cool:

I beleive that abortion should be allowed until the fetus develops a soul. I beleive that that occurs around age 25. I want my beleif codified into law now!

What about those of us who have sold our soul? Do we have any protection?

That Toto CD was so not worth it.

What about those of us who have sold our soul? Do we have any protection?

That Toto CD was so not worth it.
Hopefully protection was part of the deal. I can't be held responsible if you didn't think ahead and close all the loopholes.

And what, pray tell, will it be? A doctor, lawyer, philosopher, serial killer?

A child has not become what it will be until it has become what it will be.

In the womb, all it can be is alive or dead. There is no "will be". To live your life in accordance with that which might be coming soon is to live a shallow and pointless life.

*sigh*
Here we go, the first of the smart arses, you know that I mean after it has formed into a child and not a bunch of cells.

Your poll sucks... there is no option for never. As in never. As in never never. NO EXCEPTIONS...

Flame on, you pro-deathers...

Hopefully protection was part of the deal. I can't be held responsible if you didn't think ahead and close all the loopholes.

LOOPHOLES?! No one told me about any loopholes.

This wouldn't have happened if "Africa" wasn't such a kick ass song.

LOOPHOLES?! No one told me about any loopholes.

This wouldn't have happened if "Africa" wasn't such a kick ass song.
Hey, considering what you were listening to you weren't using that soul anyway. Now if you'd gotten some James Brown CDs, that would be a different story.

Hey, considering what you were listening to you weren't using that soul anyway. Now if you'd gotten some James Brown CDs, that would be a different story.

I am not 25 so I haven't developed a soul yet. The deal was based on the potential to gain a soul.

I guess I had better start being nice to my mom.

*sigh*
Here we go, the first of the smart arses, you know that I mean after it has formed into a child and not a bunch of cells.


I'm a 32 year old man ... I am just a bunch of cells.

Denying a mother the right to abort her foetus is a criminal breach of civil liberties.

Granting a mother the right to abort her unborn child is a criminal breach of the freedom to live.

In fact it is state-sponsored murder of defenseless innocents. Abortion is the next Holocaust. When people finally come to their senses and stop it and start taking responsibility for their lives, they will see what a horrible thing abortion is.

And don't give me the "but what about over-population?" crap. The world is FAR from being overpopulated. Europe's population is ALREADY shrinking and the U.S. is not far behind (if you discount illegal immigrants) and within 30 years too will start shrinking in population. Japan and China are both dramatically shrinking in population. Africa as a continent will start shrinking in population within 20 years. India should read peak population within 40 years and only decline from then on.

A nation is only economically viable and growing as long as there is a significant population growth. Without a population growth that nation is doomed. Before long the entire human population will be shrinking ever faster and faster.

Finally, to the nasty woman who said that she felt that her baby was a horrible alien trying to eat her from the inside out: First of all, I have a hard time believing that you were ever pregnant. Or that you are a woman. Secondly, if you were, then you are a horrible human being. Lastly: how would you feel if your mother felt about you like that? I hope you see the light.

Sometimes I wonder late at night how so many downright evil people can sleep in this day and age of the death-culture, moral relavitism, the entitlement mentality, of ultra-selfishness, and of outright hedonism.

I could really do well without 80% of the world's population. And yes, that would include all the liberals. And a lot of the so-called "conservatives" (buh-bye Bushy).

I think that abortion should be allowed almost up until birth, but I don't think that it should ever be paid for by the state*

Except:
*in cases of rape, for which the state will extract money from the rapist to pay for the abortion
*in cases where the mother's life is in danger
*in cases where the mother is under 16 years old

Allow it when the woman says it's ok.

There is no other litmus test necessary.
And the doctor as well, right? (For safety reasons.)

Sometimes I wonder late at night how so many downright evil people can sleep in this day and age of the death-culture, moral relavitism, the entitlement mentality, of ultra-selfishness, and of outright hedonism.

I could really do well without 80% of the world's population. And yes, that would include all the liberals. And a lot of the so-called "conservatives" (buh-bye Bushy).
You want to get rid of 80% of the population yet you are worrying about population decline?

Another point, I think people should be allowed to be hedonists as long as they can take responsibility for their actions (which is why I don't support the state paying for abortions).

Hey, considering what you were listening to you weren't using that soul anyway. Now if you'd gotten some James Brown CDs, that would be a different story.


You need to read the fine prints :) I was thinking about selling my soul, but I rent it out from time to time instead. So much worth it. Altough, some of people don't leave it back in good conditions. After Britney Spears had rented it so that she could have a soul for a while I had to clean it for 2 weeks!


To go back to the topic, I would say it is a hard descision to make. I would say that to a certain point (24 weeks or what the epxerts on the subjects say) it should be free to do, no questions asked and no age limit of the mother (like your Florida case, quite big news in Sweden to BTW). This will give most females time to decide if she should keep it or not. After this the mother should have to talk to a shrink or a person with similar knowledge, and after that decide if she would keep it or not.

At some time, a time I cant decide about myself, the goverment should have the right to decide to not allow it. This would then be when the fetus/baby would have developed as far as to be seen as an individual. Perhaps at the timepoint of its viabilty oustide the womb, or later. Of course this would be an decrease in the mothers rights to decide about her life, but so is many other laws. However, late-term abortions would be allowed in different circumstances, like when the mothers life is in risk.

Granting a mother the right to abort her unborn child is a criminal breach of the freedom to live.

And why, pray tell, does this unborn child have that right ? Does it have a right to be conceived also ? If not, could you explain clearly and in great detail what for the unborn child without a nervous system the difference between never having been conceived and never having had any experiences is ?
Once it gains the ability to experience things, then it gains a right to Life with a capital L. This is well before birth, but also well after the first period of pregnancy.

Ok fine ... I'll do it ...

In Soviet Russia, fetus aborts you!

:mad: And why, pray tell, does this unborn child have that right ? Does it have a right to be conceived also ? If not, could you explain clearly and in great detail what for the unborn child without a nervous system the difference between never having been conceived and never having had any experiences is ?
Once it gains the ability to experience things, then it gains a right to Life with a capital L. This is well before birth, but also well after the first period of pregnancy.

Are you saying that an unborn child has no nervous system? Wow... the stupidity of some people...

Why does an unborn child have the right to live... if the answer isn't obvious enough, then here goes: BECAUSE IT IS AN UNBORN CHILD, ergo human, ergo alive, ergo has a right to live. If you deny it that right, you are in fact responsible for the murder of another human being. Yes, in case you were wondering, I am also against euthanasia.

Right to be conceived? I am not sure what you mean...
'
But let me try. Sexual intercourse is something that takes place between a man and a woman in a married relationship. Said sexual intercourse should be open to conception. That means no contraceptives, etc. too. My definition of sexual intercourse also doesn't allow unmarried couples and homosexuals to have sexual intercourse.

Oh man, am I on a roll today or what? I am so going to piss off all the hardcore libs with this.
Their anger is my joy.

Libs -> :mad:
Me -> :D

Ok fine ... I'll do it ...

In Soviet Russia, fetus aborts you!

Giving unborn children CCW licences might not be a bad idea. I bet that 100% of carrying unborn children would shoot the abortionist and if need be the bitch of a mother who is trying to kill them. That would make a nice abortion deterrent. I wonder what the tool of choice would be... S&W 500? :D A nice strong kick to the evil mother! haha...

The kid's not invading your space, you PUT them there through your actions. If rape or incest is the case then it's regrettable but fair to allow abortion, as is the case if birth would harm the mother. It's selfish as hell to kill without just cause.

I've never been pregnant and never will be. I'm male so it isn't really an option anyway :)

And because of this I believe that the woman has the right to decide what she does. I can and will never be in that position so I have no right to dictate what to do or not to do in that situation.

Gaston. Give (almost, there are a few exceptions) any living creature a choice and it will choose to live. That is no kind of test as to whether it should.

<<But let me try. Sexual intercourse is something that takes place between a man and a woman in a married relationship.>>

*Sound of despair* So sex out of marriage never happens? May I ask what the weather is like in your world? I trust it's a typhoon.

When to allow it?

Continuously.

I've never been pregnant and never will be. I'm male so it isn't really an option anyway :)

And because of this I believe that the woman has the right to decide what she does. I can and will never be in that position so I have no right to dictate what to do or not to do in that situation.

Gaston. Give (almost, there are a few exceptions) any living creature a choice and it will choose to live. That is no kind of test as to whether it should.

<<But let me try. Sexual intercourse is something that takes place between a man and a woman in a married relationship.>>

*Sound of despair* So sex out of marriage never happens? May I ask what the weather is like in your world? I trust it's a typhoon.

No, I am just saying that sex outside of marriage is a sin. Plain and simple...

I need another option on the poll: Never under any circumstances. I'm all for contraception, and I'm even cool with the morning-after pill, but there's no situation or circumstance when I could allow a baby to be killed, even to save the life of the mother. If the woman is "pregnant," by which I mean the zygote has implanted in the uterus, then that part of the woman's body is no longer her own, meaning that she is carrying another life inside her, and she must let nature take its course. Even if the baby is the product of rape or incest, the baby still has value intrinsic to itself. In the rare case that allowing the baby to come to full term would kill the mother, I say let the doctors use all the skill they have to try and save both. All life is valuable, and we should not be valuing one life over another. Babies cannot consent to be aborted, and we cannot assume that they would consent.

No, I am just saying that sex outside of marriage is a sin. Plain and simple...


I wouldn't go as far as that, but if people were a tad more chaste:


Fewer unplanned babies/abortions - good for potential parents and good that kids won't be killed.

and

Fewer STDs - good for everyone.

No, I am just saying that sex outside of marriage is a sin. Plain and simple...
Not for me it ain't.

In fact it is state-sponsored murder of defenseless innocents. Abortion is the next Holocaust. When people finally come to their senses and stop it and start taking responsibility for their lives, they will see what a horrible thing abortion is.


LOL thats not an over reactive statement is it?


Finally, to the nasty woman who said that she felt that her baby was a horrible alien trying to eat her from the inside out: First of all, I have a hard time believing that you were ever pregnant. Or that you are a woman. Secondly, if you were, then you are a horrible human being. Lastly: how would you feel if your mother felt about you like that? I hope you see the light.


And THIS whoever you are, is down right insulting.

I am a woman, I am a proud mother of a very fit healthy and happy 10 year old daughter, who has a damn sight better and more mature outlook on lifenthan you seem to have.

Are you a woman?
Have you EVER been pregnant?

Finally, to the nasty woman who said that she felt that her baby was a horrible alien trying to eat her from the inside out: First of all, I have a hard time believing that you were ever pregnant. Or that you are a woman. Secondly, if you were, then you are a horrible human being. Lastly: how would you feel if your mother felt about you like that? I hope you see the light.

A lot of women feel this way it is a common psycological symptom of pregnancy. It can continue for a long time after birth as well. You seem to see the world in a very black and white way. Why do you assume that your way of living is better than anyone elses? My ideas are different from yours I am wrong because of that?

Basically, I really have a problem with making the foetus pay for your irresponsible actions. Although some people seem to want to remain completely in the dark as to whether it's "alive"… it develops human characteristics far earlier than you'd think… brain, CNS and suchlike. Saying that denying someone the right to abort is a breach of liberties… well, how is that true? Preventing stealing is denying people the "liberty" to do what they want.

However, you can't just ban, like that, and expect teenagers to look after kids alone. Which is why… go socialism!

I need another option on the poll: Never under any circumstances. I'm all for contraception, and I'm even cool with the morning-after pill, but there's no situation or circumstance when I could allow a baby to be killed, even to save the life of the mother. If the woman is "pregnant," by which I mean the zygote has implanted in the uterus, then that part of the woman's body is no longer her own, meaning that she is carrying another life inside her, and she must let nature take its course. Even if the baby is the product of rape or incest, the baby still has value intrinsic to itself. In the rare case that allowing the baby to come to full term would kill the mother, I say let the doctors use all the skill they have to try and save both. All life is valuable, and we should not be valuing one life over another. Babies cannot consent to be aborted, and we cannot assume that they would consent.

Let nature take its course? If going through with pregnancy is going to kill the mother? Completely insane.
I'm of the opinion that women should have the right to choose up until and no later than the second trimester or half way through the pregnancy but after that, well if the mother has not already decided what to do then she doesn't really want to abort the baby. Of course conditions can mean abortions after the cut off date would be legal. (mother's life in danger)

:mad:
Oh man, am I on a roll today or what? I am so going to piss off all the hardcore libs with this.
Their anger is my joy.

Libs -> :mad:
Me -> :D
Actually, you're the angriest person around here. Everyone else is just laughing at you.

A lot of women feel this way it is a common psycological symptom of pregnancy. It can continue for a long time after birth as well. You seem to see the world in a very black and white way. Why do you assume that your way of living is better than anyone elses? My ideas are different from yours I am wrong because of that?

Yes it is more common than those who haven't tried motherhood believe.
Most think that it is because they are horrible nasty people (as our friend seems to believe) and keep quiet, especially if it is a planned and much awaited pregnancy.

I was unbelievably ill after I had my daughter and was unable to look after her for the first two weeks, but was quite happy to hold her and cuddle her and love her, I was fortunate, my dislike for how I felt wasn't transferred onto her.
Even though she is only ten, she knows how I felt, but not because I want her to be on some guilt trip and feel bad about herself, but because she needs to know that life isn't such a bed of roses.

Oh and as for our friends comment on "How would I feel if my mother had felt that way?"
Well she didn't with me, my younger sister and older brother, but she certainly did with my youngest brother. But again, she loved him when he was born and has loved us equally throughout.

It is common.

Breakdown of flamewars
Atheists vs. Theists
Muslim Theists vs. Christian Theists
Catholic Christian Theists vs. Protestant Christian Theists
Pro-Life Protestant Christian Theists vs. Pro-Choice Protestant Christian Theists
Moderate Pro-Choice Protestant Christian Theists vs. Extreme Pro-Choice Protestant Christian Theists

~Czardas, Supreme Ruler of the Universe

You stole that analysis from me and then modified it slightly :-P ...

women have the right to decide over their own body

Even a little after birth...

Abortion. When to allow it, if at all?

I say we should restrict it. I would only allow women who are pregnant to have an abortion.