NationStates Jolt Archive

And if you don't have any proof of why you believe my beliefs are false if I bring them up in a debate, don't expect me to give you any more credence than I would a schoolyard bully.

Hey...I can use cliches too...

If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.

Actually, if you want to use your beliefs to justify something (like gays should be second-class citizens), you'd better be able to prove them up.

Why is "my God says so" an acceptable argument, but "sorry, you have no proof your God is any more real than my pooka friend Harvey" is schoolyard bullying?

But, I'll gladly challenge the basis of one's beliefs. With logic and evidence. And some like Tex will run around crying about how I am being mean and hateful.

Actually, if you want to use your beliefs to justify something (like gays should be second-class citizens), you'd better be able to prove them up.

Why is "my God says so" an acceptable argument, but "sorry, you have no proof your God is any more real than my pooka friend Harvey" is schoolyard bullying?

But, I'll gladly challenge the basis of one's beliefs. With logic and evidence. And some like Tex will run around crying about how I am being mean and hateful.

Actually, I don't try to use my beliefs to justify anything. I simply state that x=my belief. You ask me why and I'll give you a because, but I don't expect you to believe it. My beliefs are personal and make sense to me. I have proved them to myself. I don't feel the need to justify them to anyone.

And Druid...dear, sweet Druid...we passed that part long ago, hun, lol. But I know....16 pages worth of posts take a long time to read.

By the way....what are you doing up this early! :p

Actually, I don't try to use my beliefs to justify anything. I simply state that x=my belief. You ask me why and I'll give you a because, but I don't expect you to believe it. My beliefs are personal and make sense to me. I have proved them to myself. I don't feel the need to justify them to anyone.

And Druid...dear, sweet Druid...we passed that part long ago, hun, lol. But I know....16 pages worth of posts take a long time to read.

By the way....what are you doing up this early! :p

I'm the same way with expressing my beliefs.

heheh...Me,I'm an insomniac..I can turn it on and off at will. Rather useful.

:rolleyes: Sleep, sleep you say? No No dear sweet Stella not for idiots like me that havenothing better to do with my time then to post at god knows waht fricking time it is in the morning on th computer. What a life we lead...oh well to bad so sad!!!!! By the way release the lions there is fresh Chrisitan meat on the menu tonite :p :D

By the way release the lions there is fresh Chrisitan meat on the menu tonite :p :D

Friggin Druids. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=410396)

Friggin Druids. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=410396)

...lol..I have to laugh. *sighs and shakes head*

If I ever find links to such, I'll post them. People, if memory serves right, have also forged evidence to prove evolution.

Hurrah for Piltdown Man. I've handled the skull, it's a good forgery.

:rolleyes: Sleep, sleep you say? No No dear sweet Stella not for idiots like me that havenothing better to do with my time then to post at god knows waht fricking time it is in the morning on th computer. What a life we lead...oh well to bad so sad!!!!! By the way release the lions there is fresh Chrisitan meat on the menu tonite :p :D

LOL, sorry, had to steal the car for a minutes to run to the store for caffine (soda, not coffee) and donuts.

Druid...I have not slept since.....yesterday morning sometime? LOL. I'll probably push myself until I get the 1 youngin off to school, then convince the other to lay down with me for a nap....that or I'll doze on the couch while she colors and watches "Brother Bear" for the thousandth time.

LOL, sorry, had to steal the car for a minutes to run to the store for caffine (soda, not coffee) and donuts.

Druid...I have not slept since.....yesterday morning sometime? LOL. I'll probably push myself until I get the 1 youngin off to school, then convince the other to lay down with me for a nap....that or I'll doze on the couch while she colors and watches "Brother Bear" for the thousandth time.

*eyes your donuts....Mission Impossible theme plays in my head..does elaborate acrobatic routine to nab one donut...replaces it with a IOU note...does elaborate acrobatic routine to exit while devouring donut*

Why haven't you slept?

Speaking of..I should head to bed now.

*Sighs, takes a deep breath, draws sword and plunges into the fray*

What I can't stand is the claims on both sides of people "forcing their beliefs on others." This either means using violence to somehow make people change their beliefs which is nearly impossible and highly unethical. I doubt either side is guilty of much of that. On the other hand it could mean the attempt to persuade someone of your point of view through debate. This is not "forcing" anyone to do anything.

*eyes your donuts....Mission Impossible theme plays in my head..does elaborate acrobatic routine to nab one donut...replaces it with a IOU note...does elaborate acrobatic routine to exit while devouring donut*

Why haven't you slept?

Speaking of..I should head to bed now.

No need to resort to elaborate acrobatics. (:D OMGs that made me laugh!) I know how to share. ;) Free donuts for all!!!

If I slept, look at how much I would have missed! That would have been just no fun!

Few I'm safe for a few hours. Everyone's gone to bed.

I could rule the thread! Mwhahahahahahaaaaaaaa.

Actually, I don't try to use my beliefs to justify anything. I simply state that x=my belief. You ask me why and I'll give you a because, but I don't expect you to believe it. My beliefs are personal and make sense to me. I have proved them to myself. I don't feel the need to justify them to anyone.

That is fine.

Some do.

And if you don't feel the need to justify your beliefs, WTF is the problem.

You can say x=my belief.

I can say x is stupid and hateful and why on earth would you belief that?

Keep quiet if you like. But don't whine about how dare I question your belief. You brought it up.

Again, your beliefs may be sacred to you. So what? They aren't to me. Why should I have to treat them like they are?

(Note: You are now talking in the abstract about what you would do as a pagan. Not what Tex has done or other Christians have done. Like going off on homosexuality, but calling any attempt to criticize the basis for that hatred anti-Christian bigotry.)

And Druid...dear, sweet Druid...we passed that part long ago, hun, lol. But I know....16 pages worth of posts take a long time to read.

Sorry, hon, but I've read the whole thread.

If you have done the same, you'd now I joined the thread well before you did. ;)

And you didn't answer the question. Neither has Tex -- anywhere in the thread.


By the way....what are you doing up this early! :p

That would be this late. :D

Couldn't sleep. Will be crashing soon?

No need to resort to elaborate acrobatics. (:D OMGs that made me laugh!) I know how to share. ;) Free donuts for all!!!

If I slept, look at how much I would have missed! That would have been just no fun!

*grins*Yeah...I tend to be a comedian, too. And in that case...*devours the rest of the donuts, takes back the IOU*..Gods..I'm hungry. o.o

Good point on the sleeping bit. Precisely why I didn't go. lol.

*Puts on robes and crown and brandishes sword*

My religion is true because I say so. All others smell! I rule the religious thread so my view is right. Hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

I could rule the thread! Mwhahahahahahaaaaaaaa.

*pounces from behind and smacks Fritz with Betrand Russell's Why I Am Not A Christian*

Mwhahahahahahaaaaaaaa

*Sighs, takes a deep breath, draws sword and plunges into the fray*

What I can't stand is the claims on both sides of people "forcing their beliefs on others." This either means using violence to somehow make people change their beliefs which is nearly impossible and highly unethical. I doubt either side is guilty of much of that. On the other hand it could mean the attempt to persuade someone of your point of view through debate. This is not "forcing" anyone to do anything.

I think the forcing being referred to is the 7am knock on your door to ask you "Have you found Jesus?" and then them refusing to leave until you threaten to sacrifice them on your altar to your heathen gods.

Ok, so I'm being fesicious. But still...when you say your not interested about 100 times, but they keep their foot in your door so you can't close it while trying to force "the Good Book" on you...I think that qualifies as force.

Are there any threads which catalogue the testable hypotheses put forth by the biblical account of Creation?

Dammit. There are some insomniacs in here.

*Cowers under the table*

"Run the insomniacs are coming with their red eyes and grumpy temprements!"

LOL...It just hit me...this thread has devolved into 1)My stealing donuts. 2) A crazed guy in a robe,crown and sword, 3) Someone tackling and nailing him with a book. ...oh,man...we all need sleep...

I think the forcing being referred to is the 7am knock on your door to ask you "Have you found Jesus?" and then them refusing to leave until you threaten to sacrifice them on your altar to your heathen gods.

Ok, so I'm being fesicious. But still...when you say your not interested about 100 times, but they keep their foot in your door so you can't close it while trying to force "the Good Book" on you...I think that qualifies as force.

Ok granted. I'll give you that one. That is rather forceful. But no one can actually make you believe anything you don't want to.

Ooh just remembered a joke.
"What do you get if you cross an atheist and a Jehovah's Witness?"
"Someone who knocks on your door for no reason"

*pounces from behind and smacks Fritz with Betrand Russell's Why I Am Not A Christian*

Mwhahahahahahaaaaaaaa

Fires the whole of C.S.Lewis's published volumes back from his huge mortar cannon.

Sorry, hon, but I've read the whole thread.

If you have done the same, you'd now I joined the thread well before you did. ;)

And you didn't answer the question. Neither has Tex -- anywhere in the thread.




That would be this late. :D

Couldn't sleep. Will be crashing soon?

Ok, well, that was directed at Druidmagic (hence the "Druid")....as I know he just came into the conversation as I saw him come online just about 5 minutes prior to his post, and since where he and I are at the sun was coming up....it was early for him.

I can say x is stupid and hateful and why on earth would you belief that?

And at that point I would write you off as immature and doing nothing but trying to start drama, thus I would then ignore you. :cool:

*Tickles the angel Gabriel and steals the Sword of the Spirit. Wacks the bejesus out of anyone who comes near*

LOL...It just hit me...this thread has devolved into 1)My stealing donuts. 2) A crazed guy in a robe,crown and sword, 3) Someone tackling and nailing him with a book. ...oh,man...we all need sleep...

Interestingly enough, I've had loads of sleep. I live in England and it's 11.17AM.

*Continues putting tin foil on feet and computer screen*

Ok granted. I'll give you that one. That is rather forceful. But no one can actually make you believe anything you don't want to.

Ooh just remembered a joke.
"What do you get if you cross an atheist and a Jehovah's Witness?"
"Someone who knocks on your door for no reason"

How about the dyslexic Satanists?

They sell their soul to Santa. :D

Are there any threads which catalogue the testable hypotheses put forth by the biblical account of Creation?

Couldn't find any...but here are some of the arguments for god that have been put forth so far.. :D
http://universetheory.com/forum/messages.asp?forum_id=13&message_id=41751&topic_id=41751

Interestingly enough, I've had loads of sleep. I live in England and it's 11.17AM.

Okay..Cat, Stella and I do. You...should prolly put the sword away.

Okay..Cat, Stella and I do. You...should prolly put the sword away.

But God told me to brandish it manically so that's all right. :D

But God told me to brandish it manically so that's all right. :D

*Drags Excalibur out from under her bed*

Bring it on! :D

Seriously, my main reason for behaving manically is that I spent ages reading through this entire thread and then realised how pointless it was and that there had been no real debate for quite some time.

I therefore decided to have a bit of fun.

*Grins inanely and continues playing with crown he got from Burger King*

*Drags Excalibur out from under her bed*

Bring it on! :D

*Removes the special aprocraphal "Gun of the Spirit" from beneath his cloak and :sniper: *

Seriously, my main reason for behaving manically is that I spent ages reading through this entire thread and then realised how pointless it was and that there had been no real debate for quite some time.

I therefore decided to have a bit of fun.

*Grins inanely and continues playing with crown he got from Burger King*

Good enough. Carry on.

*Drags Excalibur out from under her bed*

Bring it on! :D

...*sighs*I'm so tempted to make a perverted joke...I'm going to refrain, so it won't crush the image of my being "wonderfully intelligent", per your words.

..I'm going to sleep now.Really. G'night, all. It's been interesting.

I am Grand Duke Fritz von Splurgenhof and I demand respect! Behind the twitching, gun wielding mainiac there beats the heart and soul of a true homicidal meglomaniac!

*Removes the special aprocraphal "Gun of the Spirit" from beneath his cloak and :sniper: *

Hey! No fair bringing a gun to a sword fight!

Is this where we quote Connor McCloud?

"There can be only one!"

*Queen song cues up in background*

Ok, well, that was directed at Druidmagic (hence the "Druid")....as I know he just came into the conversation as I saw him come online just about 5 minutes prior to his post, and since where he and I are at the sun was coming up....it was early for him.

Got it. As it was in the middle of your response to me (and you didn't respond otherwise to much of what I said, I misunderstood.

And at that point I would write you off as immature and doing nothing but trying to start drama, thus I would then ignore you. :cool:

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

Typical situation:

X: Gays can't be allowed to marry.

CT: Why?

X: Because marriage is a sacred institution created by God between a man and a woman. And because homosexuality is a sin.

CT: The last part is hateful and stupid. But feel free to justify it. As for the rest, no it is not. It is a legal institution. And if you can prove God exists and has strong feelings on the issue, perhaps we will listen ...

X: How dare you challenge my beliefs? I'm entitled to my opinion.

....

-----------
If you need links for this type of discussion, I can find them. It is common on here. That is to what I was referring. Also, if you start a whole thread about how Christianity is great, I'm going to ask you for some evidence.

That isn't juvenile. It isn't bullying. It is debate. Albeit, aggressive debate. I don't "attack" Christians for being Christians. I attack things people say that I think are stupid, hateful, or erroneous. That some of those things people wish to attribute to their religion is their problem.

The sword of the spirit fires stuff anyway.

My little brother has this weird Christian computer game called Catechumen. You wander around shooting at Romans and converting them with the sword of the spirit. It's in a computer game so it must be true.

One thing I've noticed since the start of my posting here on NS is the number of people (quite a large number) that seem to be outright anti-Christian bigots. I guess this post is here to ask you a few questions.

Why? Why do you feel the need to deride and insult Christians on a constant basis? Why do you feel the need to try to make Christians "defend" their religion? Why do you feel you are so much more 'right' than they are? Also, why are you so arrogant and condescending about it?

I guess the main question is: what happened to you in your past to make you so hateful and bigoted towards Christians?

Two things: 1) I don't care about people's religions until they start passing laws based on them. The logic is usually something like, my religion doesn't let me do legal thing X, but becuase it's legal you can do it. You are a temptation for me to do X, therefore, no one must be allowed to do X. That's a problem.
2) Why is it that even though Christians are a majority in the country, when you have your God's name on every coin, every dollar, in the Pledge of Alligence etc. do you constantly pretend to be a persecuted minority? You are the vast and powerful Majority! Having folks occasionally taking some air out of your balloon is the price you pay for that. Deal with the fact that your group is the one making the rules for the rest of us, and occasionally we disagree with you about what's best. But don't pretent to be a persecuted minorty, that's just silly.

Good enough. Carry on.



...*sighs*I'm so tempted to make a perverted joke...I'm going to refrain, so it won't crush the image of my being "wonderfully intelligent", per your words.

..I'm going to sleep now.Really. G'night, all. It's been interesting.

Um..hehe...actually, it isn't under the bed...but it is hanging on the bedroom wall. Along with the several other swords and daggers of my arsenal. :D My bedroom decor is like.....Early Medieval. :cool:

One thing I've noticed since the start of my posting here on NS is the number of people (quite a large number) that seem to be outright anti-Christian bigots. I guess this post is here to ask you a few questions.

Why? Why do you feel the need to deride and insult Christians on a constant basis? Why do you feel the need to try to make Christians "defend" their religion? Why do you feel you are so much more 'right' than they are? Also, why are you so arrogant and condescending about it?

I guess the main question is: what happened to you in your past to make you so hateful and bigoted towards Christians?

Such comments are restricted to a *very* specific subset of christians - those christians who are criticised by *other christians* as being ridiculously silly.

Christians up for comment iniclude those who espouse Fred Phelps-esque social positions, or those arguing against scientific advances.

Other christians post the same criticism.

Got it. As it was in the middle of your response to me (and you didn't respond otherwise to much of what I said, I misunderstood.



What we have here is a failure to communicate.

Typical situation:

X: Gays can't be allowed to marry.

CT: Why?

X: Because marriage is a sacred institution created by God between a man and a woman. And because homosexuality is a sin.

CT: The last part is hateful and stupid. But feel free to justify it. As for the rest, no it is not. It is a legal institution. And if you can prove God exists and has strong feelings on the issue, perhaps we will listen ...

X: How dare you challenge my beliefs? I'm entitled to my opinion.

....

-----------
If you need links for this type of discussion, I can find them. It is common on here. That is to what I was referring. Also, if you start a whole thread about how Christianity is great, I'm going to ask you for some evidence.

That isn't juvenile. It isn't bullying. It is debate. Albeit, aggressive debate. I don't "attack" Christians for being Christians. I attack things people say that I think are stupid, hateful, or erroneous. That some of those things people wish to attribute to their religion is their problem.

This isn't actually a thread about how great Christianity is. I refer you to the previous "How do you know your religion is the truth?" thread.

In it i basically talked about absolute and observatinal proof. The only proof we can have is observational. I have met God. He has shown me what to do. Therefore I have a valid reason to live the way I do.

I can say x is stupid and hateful and why on earth would you belief that?

Keep quiet if you like. But don't whine about how dare I question your belief. You brought it up.

Again, your beliefs may be sacred to you. So what? They aren't to me. Why should I have to treat them like they are?
*raises an eyebrow* There's a fine line between questioning beliefs and outright riddicule. You don't have to treat them as sacred, and by all means question, but saying that it's stupid is a little disrespectful to the person who holds those beliefs.

Um..hehe...actually, it isn't under the bed...but it is hanging on the bedroom wall. Along with the several other swords and daggers of my arsenal. :D My bedroom decor is like.....Early Medieval. :cool:

Nice. I've got a few blades. I intend on starting an amoury one day. Anyways..sleep...gah..I think I should post "unable to break away from thread you've been engrossed in" in the "what are you addicted to" thread.

The sword of the spirit fires stuff anyway.

My little brother has this weird Christian computer game called Catechumen. You wander around shooting at Romans and converting them with the sword of the spirit. It's in a computer game so it must be true.


...*Stares*....*Sighs*


Anyways.Night.Really. Last time.

Got it. As it was in the middle of your response to me (and you didn't respond otherwise to much of what I said, I misunderstood.



What we have here is a failure to communicate.

Typical situation:

X: Gays can't be allowed to marry.

CT: Why?

X: Because marriage is a sacred institution created by God between a man and a woman. And because homosexuality is a sin.

CT: The last part is hateful and stupid. But feel free to justify it. As for the rest, no it is not. It is a legal institution. And if you can prove God exists and has strong feelings on the issue, perhaps we will listen ...

X: How dare you challenge my beliefs? I'm entitled to my opinion.

....

-----------
If you need links for this type of discussion, I can find them. It is common on here. That is to what I was referring. Also, if you start a whole thread about how Christianity is great, I'm going to ask you for some evidence.

That isn't juvenile. It isn't bullying. It is debate. Albeit, aggressive debate. I don't "attack" Christians for being Christians. I attack things people say that I think are stupid, hateful, or erroneous. That some of those things people wish to attribute to their religion is their problem.

Sorry, as I'd just noticed he'd posted, I kinda just threw it in there.

See, I'd never have that argument, because I don't care whether they marry or not. I just don't wanna see them playing tonsel hockey on the street corner....let alone straight people for that matter. I do believe people can be born gay. However, I don't like when some gays (and usually they are Pagan ones) use religion to justify their being gay. I mean, if you are attracted to the same sex, just admit it...don't blame it on anything else.

People tell their children to believe in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny. Television networks broadcast cartoons propagating such beliefs. There are parades and kids lining up in shopping malls, waiting to sit on some strange man's lap because they want to believe in something greater than themselves. Now no one in their right mind would put up as much a fuss, trying to prove that Santa is fake. So why is it that there are people who feel they need to put down Christianity?


People don't try to legislate Santaism.

Santaists don't preach against science.

Santaists don't preach a regressive social agenda.

See the pattern?

Prove it.


Prove that it is correct - the burden is on *you*.

Until then, all claims of fact will be criticised.

*raises an eyebrow* There's a fine line between questioning beliefs and outright riddicule. You don't have to treat them as sacred, and by all means question, but saying that it's stupid is a little disrespectful to the person who holds those beliefs.

Thank you. Pretty much what I meant to say, but lack of sleep and lack of caffine were causing a major brain fart.

As Lord says...it's time to go nitey-nite...at least for about 3 hours until my little heathens wake up. I'll probably have about 40 email notifications about replies when I log back on, lol.

Ciao.

One thing I've noticed since the start of my posting here on NS is the number of people (quite a large number) that seem to be outright anti-Christian bigots. I guess this post is here to ask you a few questions.

"This is an arbitary claim, what makes "quite a large number" when compared to the total number of posts that may be putting forward views on Christianity?"


Why? Why do you feel the need to deride and insult Christians on a constant basis? Why do you feel the need to try to make Christians "defend" their religion? Why do you feel you are so much more 'right' than they are? Also, why are you so arrogant and condescending about it?

"Perhaps you could ask that question while letting go of your smug assurance of your own innocence"....You see how loaded language justs gets the others back up? Maybe you need to consider how you address others.
As for "making christians defend their religion"", well isn't one of the main activities of christians to "witness" their belief in christ to other people, in the hope that they can convert others to believe? Just don't be surprised that other people have just as strong determination to challenge and help people like you to become "free thinkers" and not bogged down by supersticion.



I guess the main question is: what happened to you in your past to make you so hateful and bigoted towards Christians?
Again, you assume that Hatred and bigotry are the root bahaviour of people who disagree with you.....perhaps you need to look at your own past?
:fluffle:

So should the fact that 19 Muslims hijacked four planes, mean that all Muslims are guilty of the September 11 attacks?

No. That - if you pay attention to the board - is why only those muslims who appease such action or support it are criticised.

Likewise, all comments on christians are directed at the nutjobs. Only those who *are* nutjobs or *sympathise* with the nutjobs need be concerned.

*raises an eyebrow* There's a fine line between questioning beliefs and outright riddicule. You don't have to treat them as sacred, and by all means question, but saying that it's stupid is a little disrespectful to the person who holds those beliefs.

*raises eyebrow right back*

1. pray tell why I should be "a little respectful" of those that are disrespectful of a significant portion of humanity

2. ridicule is a perfectly acceptable form of criticism in some context. Not a lot of point in arguing with Aryans, for example. Ridicule works much better.

3. Sorry, but if they say something stupid. It is stupid. That they dress it up as a religious belief still isn't my problem.

4. I note that calling others bigoted and hateful for their beliefs as Tex did appears to be OK. But calling someone's statement "stupid" is wrong?

*raises an eyebrow* There's a fine line between questioning beliefs and outright riddicule. You don't have to treat them as sacred, and by all means question, but saying that it's stupid is a little disrespectful to the person who holds those beliefs.

Ridiculous statements deserve ridicule - it doesn't matter who says something, or why it was said: If it's a stupid comment that person will be told just that.

Claiming an opinion as being somehow sacred is nonsense.

Sorry, as I'd just noticed he'd posted, I kinda just threw it in there.

See, I'd never have that argument, because I don't care whether they marry or not. I just don't wanna see them playing tonsel hockey on the street corner....let alone straight people for that matter. I do believe people can be born gay. However, I don't like when some gays (and usually they are Pagan ones) use religion to justify their being gay. I mean, if you are attracted to the same sex, just admit it...don't blame it on anything else.

Bully for you.

But it is exactly my disagreement with this "homosexuality is a sin" crap that caused Tex to say I hate him.

If you are going to condemn some people or somethings as evil, don't throw a hissy fit when someone dares disagree.

Am I wrong in thinking "stupid" and "irrational" are nicer than "you are going to burn in hell and don't deserve fundamental human rights"?

To answer the original question. I cant account for all of them, but notice the sexual orientation of the most vocal attackers of christianity on this board. That should answer some questions (or at least raise some new ones).

To answer the original question. I cant account for all of them, but notice the sexual orientation of the most vocal attackers of christianity on this board. That should answer some questions (or at least raise some new ones).

straight people hate christians?

To answer the original question. I cant account for all of them, but notice the sexual orientation of the most vocal attackers of christianity on this board. That should answer some questions (or at least raise some new ones).

ZOMG! TEH HETROEZ ARE IN LEEG WIT S4T4N?!/1/

One thing I've noticed since the start of my posting here on NS is the number of people (quite a large number) that seem to be outright anti-Christian bigots. I guess this post is here to ask you a few questions.

Why? Why do you feel the need to deride and insult Christians on a constant basis? Why do you feel the need to try to make Christians "defend" their religion? Why do you feel you are so much more 'right' than they are? Also, why are you so arrogant and condescending about it?

I guess the main question is: what happened to you in your past to make you so hateful and bigoted towards Christians?

It's difficult for me not to be anti-christian right now; but that is only because of the bigotted attitudes and actions of a handful of denominations/specific churches. It's also difficult not to be disdainful of those (again, not nearly all or even the majority of) christians who are allowing themselves to be led around by the nose by governmental figures who claim christianity but who act like they completely misunderstand the actual teachings of Christ. It's *very hard* not to resent the image that we as a nation have now in a large part because of the actions of these two groups.

I was raised in a christian house; and though I no longer claim that as my religion I do still remember the bible. I have no issues whatsoever with those christians who follow Christ; those who realize that his story in the new testament takes precedence over the laws laid out generations before his time in the old testament. If you claim to be a christian and do not understand that difference I suggest you spend some time checking the differences between the two. Most if not all of the biblical references that are used to support the ultra-conservative christian platform (speaking politically) have been taken from the old testament. Many of those are directly contradicted in the new testament; making them opposed to the teaching of christ rather than something he advocated.

But to finish answering your question Tex; it's not something that happened in the past, it's what is happening right now all around us. It's the people dying on the other side of the world while we remain distracted by 'religious' issues here at home that wouldn't be nearly so important as that if so many christians weren't blind to the fact that they are being used. It's the fact that there are many christians who are not and will not be content until their morality and beliefs have been legislated and forced upon the rest of the country. Those are the christians we're talking about when we get upset and contentious.

I don't hate christians, I can't stand self-righteous bigots of any kind. It's just laziness to make no distinction and speak as though all christians are the same. They aren't.

When will the world stop its biggotory and learn that it doesn't matter who's right or wrong in faith, but whether the world can benefit from its actions.

A discussion on whether the Christian faith is right wrong or otherwise is point less. The scriptures were written by men influenced by the devine. He either did not us to know or the person writting it was a great story writter with a lot of imagination.

That brings me to the last of my dribble faith is just that blind and loving. Any force to change means that the religion wants clones not believers.

If people feel they need a psychological prop such as religion in order to distract themselves from the ultimate meaninglessness of the universe and the hum-drum mediocrity of their hidebound lives, then that is fine by me, but they can keep that crap out of my face (Creationists this means YOU!) unless they fancy some suitably acidic comments from me about their favourite opiate.

*raises eyebrow right back*

1. pray tell why I should be "a little respectful" of those that are disrespectful of a significant portion of humanity
Generalzation, not ALL members of a specific belief, no matter which belief it is, are automatcially disrespectful of a significant portion of humanity. Just because they self identify with a belief system doesn't mean you should automatcially disrespect them.

Wait till they open their mouths first please, then you can hit them if they espouce the hate.

2. ridicule is a perfectly acceptable form of criticism in some context. Not a lot of point in arguing with Aryans, for example. Ridicule works much better.
Aceptable? Perhaps, I do not think that it works all that much better. A humiliated man is one who will seek revenge. Either way, challenge yes, but outright riddicule does nothing but start up fires. And again, just because someone believes in a purple wombat who guides the world through his magical robot cat from the future, that is their belief. Wait to disrespect them until you know them and their views better.

3. Sorry, but if they say something stupid. It is stupid. That they dress it up as a religious belief still isn't my problem.
There's a line between belief and the dogma that is based upon the belief. Using Christianity to attack gays IS bad, and stupid, dogma. However, does that mean that all Christians are therefore stupid? No, it does not. Christianity also preaches good works and mercy, is that stupid? Does that make all Christians 'Nice'? No, it does not. People believe what they believe, their dogma is more of a buffet with those taking what they want, we all hunger though.

4. I note that calling others bigoted and hateful for their beliefs as Tex did appears to be OK. But calling someone's statement "stupid" is wrong?
No, it's not, and I asked Tex about that in a previous posting as well. I don't think getting upset with people who disagree with your beliefs or calling them names is right.

My point being through, debate and challege, call dogma stupid; that is the life blood of this particular forum, but calling someone stupid because of their beliefs, or their beliefs stupid is disrespectful. Don't have to hold them holy, don't even have to agree with me, but please be respectful.

Why? Two reasons. One, being respectful keeps the flames down to a minimum and we might actually have a civilized debate on NS (I know, I'm a dreamer). Two though, please be respspectful of my beliefs because I am respectful of yours. All Truths, ALL of them, are inhearently false, and illogical. These include the Truths of equality, justice, and mercy.

But we humans seem to need to believe in some sort of Truth, even you, Cat. ;)

One thing I've noticed since the start of my posting here on NS is the number of people (quite a large number) that seem to be outright anti-homosexual bigots. I guess this post is here to ask you a few questions.

Why? Why do you feel the need to deride and insult gays on a constant basis? Why do you feel the need to try to make gays "defend" or "change" their orientation? Why do you feel you are so much more 'right' than they are? Also, why are you so arrogant and condescending about it?

I guess the main question is: what happened to you in your past to make you so hateful and bigoted towards homosexuals?

To answer the original question. I cant account for all of them, but notice the sexual orientation of the most vocal attackers of christianity on this board. That should answer some questions (or at least raise some new ones).

See above.

One thing I've noticed since the start of my posting here on NS is the number of people (quite a large number) that seem to be outright anti-homosexual bigots. I guess this post is here to ask you a few questions.

Why? Why do you feel the need to deride and insult gays on a constant basis? Why do you feel the need to try to make gays "defend" or "change" their orientation? Why do you feel you are so much more 'right' than they are? Also, why are you so arrogant and condescending about it?

I guess the main question is: what happened to you in your past to make you so hateful and bigoted towards homosexuals?


I havent noticed any threads like that, can you point some out?

Why? Why do you feel the need to deride and insult Christians on a constant basis?
Why do you feel the need to try to make Christians "defend" their religion? Why do you feel you are so much more 'right' than they are? Also, why are you so arrogant and condescending about it?

I can answer about myself.
Because I really don’t like Christianity. It’s my knowledge plus personal feelings. Thanks to Christianity, my country (Latvia in CEE) was conquered by christians in cross wars in 13th century, our culture destroyed. For seven centuries, my nation was enslaved, subjugated by these so-called 'Christians'. As Christianity defended serfhood (feudalism), it gained power and my nation was heavily oppressed. The greatest things that my country had were all destroyed by Christianity. Thank you very much.

I have studied history and I would not ever forgive Christianity for what it had done. The really great, ancient and glorious cultures like Romans, Mayans, Aztecs and many others were destroyed by Cristian greed, trickery and arrogance. Inquisitions, slowing the progress of science, burning witches, innumerable wars started, that is Christianity. I still find it funny, that people call religion as part of their culture – culture! No other part of culture has been that cruel and warmongering as religion. Look, how much wars have been started and supported by art, music or literature, and how much by religion. Great religion...

If there are good and bad things in the world, then in my humble opinion, the Christianity is the single _evil_ thing in the world.

That is why, I am „arrogant and condescending about it” and that is why I „feel the need to try to make Christians "defend" their religion” and „what happened to you in your past to make you so hateful and bigoted towards Christians?”. I hope, I answered to your question.

Generalzation, not ALL members of a specific belief, no matter which belief it is, are automatcially disrespectful of a significant portion of humanity. Just because they self identify with a belief system doesn't mean you should automatcially disrespect them.

Wait till they open their mouths first please, then you can hit them if they espouce the hate.
*snip*

There's a line between belief and the dogma that is based upon the belief. Using Christianity to attack gays IS bad, and stupid, dogma. However, does that mean that all Christians are therefore stupid? No, it does not. Christianity also preaches good works and mercy, is that stupid? Does that make all Christians 'Nice'? No, it does not. People believe what they believe, their dogma is more of a buffet with those taking what they want, we all hunger though.

Strawman. I never said all Christians are stupid. Nor are all Christians homophobic. All I have said is that I reserve the right to call stupid statements stupid and hateful statements hateful. Whether or not the speaker is a Christian is irrelevant.

I generally don't just call them stupid. Nor do I generally call posters stupid. I will explain in agnozing detail why what they have posted is stupid, ignorant, wrong, and/or hateful.

(Perhaps I should go get links to the only two arguments I have ever had with Tex that causes him to say I hate him. In one, I defended the Oxford English Dictionary definition of homophobia (which Tex doesn't like because it says that hatred as well as fear of homosexuals counts). In the other (called "Banning Homosexuals"), I argued against Tex and other individuals beliefs that homosexuality is a sin and that homosexuals shouldn't "limit" themselves by their sexuality. I'm a big "hater." :rolleyes: )

My point being through, debate and challege, call dogma stupid; that is the life blood of this particular forum, but calling someone stupid because of their beliefs, or their beliefs stupid is disrespectful. Don't have to hold them holy, don't even have to agree with me, but please be respectful.

Um. I can call dogma stupid, but not beliefs? Why?

Moreoever, I don't generally call someone stupid. That would be flaming.

I will challenge things people have said. If those are their religious beliefs, so be it. Thanks for sharing, but don't expect to be treated with kid gloves.

My views get called stupid (and much worse) all the time. I argue back. It is a debate forum after all.

(You might note Tex has a "cute" quote in his signature about buggering a lawyer with a jackhammer. He took that from a homophobe that was directing it at me. Very Christian of him, isn't it?)

Why? Two reasons. One, being respectful keeps the flames down to a minimum and we might actually have a civilized debate on NS (I know, I'm a dreamer). Two though, please be respspectful of my beliefs because I am respectful of yours. All Truths, ALL of them, are inhearently false, and illogical. These include the Truths of equality, justice, and mercy.

But we humans seem to need to believe in some sort of Truth, even you, Cat. ;)

All Truths are inherently false and illogical?

Equality, justice, and mercy are false and illogical?

That is just stupid. :D

But seriously, you can't be serious. :eek:

EDIT: Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying I'm an angel. I'm an arrogant prick. I argue forcefully and, fairly often, obnoxiously. Sometimes I am not very nice. Sometimes I try to be courteous. Sometimes I apologize. But those that advocate racism and discrimination against gays, for example, deserve worse than my sarcasm and rough treatment.

One thing I've noticed since the start of my posting here on NS is the number of people (quite a large number) that seem to be outright anti-homosexual bigots. I guess this post is here to ask you a few questions.
Why? Why do you feel the need to deride and insult gays on a constant basis?
The same reason you attack pro-lifers, IDers, Creationists and Christians. Beliefs say they're wrong.Why do you feel the need to try to make gays "defend" or "change" their orientation?
The same reason you attack pro-lifers, IDers, Creationists and Christians. Beliefs say they're wrong. Why do you feel you are so much more 'right' than they are?
The same reason you attack pro-lifers, IDers, Creationists and Christians. Beliefs say they're wrong. Also, why are you so arrogant and condescending about it?
The same reason you attack pro-lifers, IDers, Creationists and Christians. Beliefs say they're wrong.

I guess the main question is: what happened to you in your past to make you so hateful and bigoted towards homosexuals? The same reason you attack pro-lifers, IDers, Creationists and Christians. Beliefs say they're wrong.

I guess everyone on these boards is human and subject to the same delusional self-righteousness as every other human on the planet.

I havent noticed any threads like that, can you point some out?

:D

The same reason you attack pro-lifers, IDers, Creationists and Christians. Beliefs say they're wrong.
*snip*
I guess everyone on these boards is human and subject to the same delusional self-righteousness as every other human on the planet.

:headbang:

Compare my post to the starting post of this thread.

:D

I guess that means no?

I guess that means no?

It means you are either joking or bearing false witness (which makes God sad).

I guess everyone on these boards is human and subject to the same delusional self-righteousness as every other human on the planet.

You fail at reading comprehension. You lose 3 internets.

It means you are either joking or bearing false witness (which makes God sad).

Or, that I really havent seen any. Granted, I dont participate in very many debates on homosexuality (in fact, I dont remember seeing any threads on the topic). The fact remains, if you cannot show any then I continue to believe they do not exist.

:headbang:

Compare my post to the starting post of this thread.
I could, but it would be more accurate to compare to your other posts.
Which establishes the fact that you believe your beliefs (isn't that amazing?) and tend to assume those who disagree with you are fundamentally wrong. You argue from the point that they are wrong/ignorant/stupid/cruel/evil with little regard for their actual position and (from what I have read of your posts, I admit I have not read all of them) no regard for the possibility that you might be wrong.
Don't take it personally, it just means that you are human. :)

I could, but it would be more accurate to compare to your other posts.
Which establishes the fact that you believe your beliefs (isn't that amazing?) and tend to assume those who disagree with you are fundamentally wrong. You argue from the point that they are wrong/ignorant/stupid/cruel/evil with little regard for their actual position and (from what I have read of your posts, I admit I have not read all of them) no regard for the possibility that you might be wrong.
Don't take it personally, it just means that you are human. :)

please look at the first post, you are making yourself look silly

I could, but it would be more accurate to compare to your other posts.

You fall down the sarchasm. Congrats. Cease the tedious insults poorly disguised as highbrow philosophy, please.

After not reading the 22 pages of what was probably a flame fest, I have an answer to the original question. Because most Christians, that I know both from school and the Internet, hate atheists, homosexuals, hell, anyone different from them. They think that everything written in the mistranslated, misinterpreted, and misquoted Bible should be the law. Of course, this isn't true for every Christian, but it is for more than enough of them.

Whee, I probably just started another 2-3 pages of angry screaming that I won't read.

please look at the first post, you are making yourself look silly
I have looked at the first post. I think it's stupid. I am not interested in commenting on it. The Cat-Tribe's post did interest me (most of them do). So I did comment on it.

You fall down the sarchasm. Congrats. Cease the tedious insults poorly disguised as highbrow philosophy, please.
Three points:
1) It wasn't an insult.
2) If I wanted to disguise an insult as "highbrow philosophy" I would do a much better job than that.
3) If I wanted to insult him, I would be direct about it.

I generally don't just call them stupid. Nor do I generally call posters stupid. I will explain in agnozing detail why what they have posted is stupid, ignorant, wrong, and/or hateful.

Then we are in agreement here. What they say can be, what they believe however...

(Perhaps I should go get links to the only two arguments I have ever had with Tex that causes him to say I hate him. In one, I defended the Oxford English Dictionary definition of homophobia (which Tex doesn't like because it says that hatred as well as fear of homosexuals counts). In the other (called "Banning Homosexuals"), I argued against Tex and other individuals beliefs that homosexuality is a sin and that homosexuals shouldn't "limit" themselves by their sexuality. I'm a big "hater." :rolleyes: )
Um... Cat-Tribe... I'm not Tex. Really; you don't need to fight me on this. :) I disagree with him... actually I don't think I've seen a post of his I agreed with, and neither am I accusing you of hatred and/or bigotry like Tex is/has. I just am saying insulting someone's beliefs is disrespectful.

Um. I can call dogma stupid, but not beliefs? Why?

Moreoever, I don't generally call someone stupid. That would be flaming.

I will challenge things people have said. If those are their religious beliefs, so be it. Thanks for sharing, but don't expect to be treated with kid gloves.
In answer, do you enjoy having YOUR deeply held beliefs called stupid? Not views, views are informed opinions, beliefs are much deeper. But I would say that the difference being that if I said I am Christian (which I am) I would expect you NOT to walk up to me (in a manner of speaking) and say "That is sooooo stupid. It was obviously made up in the 3rd century by power hungry Romans." However, IF I said, "Because I am Christian, I think the Bible is the literal Word of God and therefore the world was created in 7 Days," by all means go to town on the view of the 7 Days. There's a difference between that... faith and views one expresses.

My views get called stupid (and much worse) all the time. I argue back. It is a debate forum after all.

(You might note Tex has a "cute" quote in his signature about buggering a lawyer with a jackhammer. He took that from a homophobe that was directing it at me. Very Christian of him, isn't it?)
Yes, yes it is. But has your fundamental belief(s) been attacked and derided? And yes, Tex is a rude dude; we don't need to debate that. I'd go after him next but you usually do a much better job than me.

All Truths are inherently false and illogical?

Equality, justice, and mercy are false and illogical?

That is just stupid. :D

But seriously, you can't be serious. :eek:
Yes, yes I am. *grins* Think about it. WHERE do you see these things? Honestly, if reality is ruled by the laws of nature and physics, where is the room for these oh so human notions? Show me, please. Show me justice in the natural world. People die who should live and live who should die. Show me equality; I am not 'equal' to many, having a birth defect that limits my hearing. In the natural world, I would be dead. Things are not spread equally over the planet, some places are better than others, some fruits better than others, some materials better than others. Show me mercy, where is it? Has the wind been merciful to you as of late? The cold been considerate of those it freezes?

Or is it more that nothing cares for us, and our ideals.

Oh yes, I am quite serious. To quote Pratchett, "Grind the universe into the finest powder and shift it through the finest sieve and SHOW me one atom of justice, one molecule of mercy." And yet we take to heart "We hold these Truths to be self evident." Humanity has to believe in SOMETHING. I choose Christianity as my guide in life, I choose the care and the love of God and the commandment that I should care and love everyone else. From your profession and arguments, I'd say you chose the notion of Justice and Equality before the Law.

But they really are illogical, when you think about it.

I just am saying insulting someone's beliefs is disrespectful.

Why, if those beliefs are stupid?


In answer, do you enjoy having YOUR deeply held beliefs called stupid?

That depends entirely on whether or not they add a sensible "because". Irrational appeals to faith based dogma don't cut the mustard on that front.

I realise that post was directed at Cat Tribe, but hey.

Why, if those beliefs are stupid?

That depends entirely on whether or not they add a sensible "because". Irrational appeals to faith based dogma don't cut the mustard on that front.

As noted, I have no problems with calling dogma (views derived from faith or belief) stupid and explaining why. I mean attacking someone's FAITH, their core faith/beliefs/Truth(s), whatever you want to call it, as stupid.

And that is disrespectful, very much so.

If you want to state that Tex's views of homosexuals is stupid, go for it. If he defends his views because of his faith, feel free to challenge his assumtions about his faith. Saying he is stupid or that his faith (beliefs/Truth(s) are stupid is a little beyond.

It's a direct attack, in many cases, on the person, which is NOT a debate technique, no matter what many NSers think. It doesn't lead to debate, just flame wars, which shuts down the whole purpose of debating in the first place. And finally, think how you, yourself, would feel in that position. We all have faith in SOMETHING, be it religion or not. We all base our worldviews on this. In many ways, it's the core of your reality. How'd you like me to tell you that it was stupid and attempt to pull it from you?

How'd you like me to tell you that it was stupid and attempt to pull it from you?

That would largely depend on whether it was actually stupid or not.

One thing I've noticed since the start of my posting here on NS is the number of people (quite a large number) that seem to be outright anti-Christian bigots. I guess this post is here to ask you a few questions.

Why? Why do you feel the need to deride and insult Christians on a constant basis? Why do you feel the need to try to make Christians "defend" their religion? Why do you feel you are so much more 'right' than they are? Also, why are you so arrogant and condescending about it?

I guess the main question is: what happened to you in your past to make you so hateful and bigoted towards Christians?

That the buggers try to convert you and press their religion upon you. I was told today, "You may not believe in God, but he still loves you." On the contrary, it is Christians who are condescending and patronising by their very nature. Stop insulting non-christians, and then maybe the bigotry shall cease.

As noted, I have no problems with calling dogma (views derived from faith or belief) stupid and explaining why. I mean attacking someone's FAITH, their core faith/beliefs/Truth(s), whatever you want to call it, as stupid.

And that is disrespectful, very much so.

If you want to state that Tex's views of homosexuals is stupid, go for it. If he defends his views because of his faith, feel free to challenge his assumtions about his faith. Saying he is stupid or that his faith (beliefs/Truth(s) are stupid is a little beyond.



If he cites his faith as the basis for a stupid claim, that faith is stupid. It makes no difference whether he is christian, Baha-i, zorastarian or worships the Great Green Arkleseizure. Labelling something as 'religion' doesn't make it immune to criticism.

There is no distinction between his odious opinions and anything else he thinks - he doesn't get special treatment.

That would largely depend on whether it was actually stupid or not.
So... could I then assume that you believe in things you know are stupid? Or is it more apt to say you hold your beliefs to be well throught out, reasoned, and True?

So... could I then assume that you believe in things you know are stupid? Or is it more apt to say you hold your beliefs to be well throught out, reasoned, and True?


You seem to be conflating "that is wrong because it is stupid" [which is not a valid debate technique] with "that is stupid because it is wrong" [which is].

If he cites his faith as the basis for a stupid claim, that faith is stupid. It makes no difference whether he is christian, Baha-i, zorastarian or worships the Great Green Arkleseizure. Labelling something as 'religion' doesn't make it immune to criticism.

There is no distinction between his odious opinions and anything else he thinks - he doesn't get special treatment.
You're going backwards too far. I base my faith of equality before the law on the US Constitution. Equality itself is as silly and illogical as religion. Does that mean the US Constitution is an illogical and silly document (it probably is)? There is a major difference between faith and dogma. Dogma can be challaged and argued. It's connections to the core faith can also be challenged and argued. Faith itself cannot because it's what you know to be TRUE! And you cannot change that!

You're going backwards too far. I base my faith of equality before the law on the US Constitution. Equality itself is as silly and illogical as religion. Does that mean the US Constitution is an illogical and silly document (it probably is)? There is a major difference between faith and dogma. Dogma can be challaged and argued. It's connections to the core faith can also be challenged and argued. Faith itself cannot because it's what you know to be TRUE! And you cannot change that!

WHy do Americans assume that equality before the law is a Constitutional principle? It was originally included in the Magna Carta which is much, much older.

You're going backwards too far. I base my faith of equality before the law on the US Constitution. Equality itself is as silly and illogical as religion. Does that mean the US Constitution is an illogical and silly document (it probably is)? There is a major difference between faith and dogma. Dogma can be challaged and argued. It's connections to the core faith can also be challenged and argued. Faith itself cannot because it's what you know to be TRUE! And you cannot change that!

I don't argue from "faith".

For example, if I were arguing for racial equality - I don't bother with the US constitution or the UN Declarations, I just point to other instances of equality [e.g. extending the franchise to women] as the basis for progressive change. By pointing to an increase in quality of life resulting from other instances, I can validly argue the benefit of a proposed change or development. The counter strategy would be for someone to dismantle my claim by showing that other instances of legal developments to introduce equality *didn't* improve life.

At no point does that argument - or the counter - necessitate any "faith" systems [not without mangling the notion of faith].

Or, that I really havent seen any. Granted, I dont participate in very many debates on homosexuality (in fact, I dont remember seeing any threads on the topic). The fact remains, if you cannot show any then I continue to believe they do not exist.

You must have a very faulty memory.

Or at least you forget Jolt has a search function.

It has been less than 36 hours since you participated in this thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8880132&postcount=67) re homophobia. (Which is one of the two that has Tex pissed at me.)

You posted multiple times in this thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=415747) about Gay Rights. You argued, among other things, that gays aren't denied any rights except re military service and that prohibiting gay marriage wasn't discriminatory. See, e.g., here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8777147&postcount=6), here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8777369&postcount=18), and here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8777687&postcount=58).

In this thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8853674&postcount=16), you argued that homosexuality is a choice.

You posted multiple times in this thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=8720093#post8720093) about Orson Scott Card's essay against Gay Marriage.

You posted in this thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=415721&page=2&pp=15) about the new Pope and homosexuality.

Here are some other current/recent threads re homosexuality:
Trying not to troll or get banned. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=417615&highlight=homosexual) (this one is really lovely)
Gays in the Military (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=416981&highlight=homosexual)
Banning Homosexuals? (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=419182&highlight=homosexual)

Don't you dare ask me to point out the anti-homosexual statements in these threads.

At no point does that argument - or the counter - necessitate any "faith" systems [not without mangling the notion of faith].
But equallity as something "right" and worth working for, IS an faith item. You believe in it, correct? And I would no more belittle that. Yes, if you argue for equality based upon stats and so on, we can have a good debate. But how can we debate upon equality itself, a a notion, an idea, an article of faith if you will. We can't. You 'believe' in it. I could call that stupid, but why do so? It's pointless to. What you believe is what you believe.

Debating where that faith leads you however, is not so pointless, and yes, those ideas can be labled.

You're going backwards too far. I base my faith of equality before the law on the US Constitution. Equality itself is as silly and illogical as religion. Does that mean the US Constitution is an illogical and silly document (it probably is)? There is a major difference between faith and dogma. Dogma can be challaged and argued. It's connections to the core faith can also be challenged and argued. Faith itself cannot because it's what you know to be TRUE! And you cannot change that!

1. I don't base my views on equality on the Constitution -- although I am happy they are enshrined there. I based them on my ethics.

2. You draw a distinction between opinions and faith because you have faith that you believe is special. Others, like myself, don't.

3. What you "know" cannot change? I thought that is exactly what happened to Saul/Paul.

4. The philosophical works of Terry Pratchett aside, I find nothing illogical or silly about either equality or the US Constitution.

5. Did you consider that calling equality illogical and silly could be as offensive to some as calling Christianity illogical and silly? Because it is. Which is fine. But if you can skewer my beliefs, I can skewer yours.

But equallity as something "right" and worth working for, IS an faith item. You believe in it, correct? And I would no more belittle that. Yes, if you argue for equality based upon stats and so on, we can have a good debate. But how can we debate upon equality itself, a a notion, an idea, an article of faith if you will. We can't. You 'believe' in it. I could call that stupid, but why do so? It's pointless to. What you believe is what you believe.

Debating where that faith leads you however, is not so pointless, and yes, those ideas can be labled.

Have you ever studied philosophy -- particularly ethics?

Apparently Plato, Aristotle, Augustine, Hobbes, Locke, Mill, Hume, Kant, Rawls, etc, have all been mentally masturbating. It was all pointless.

WHy do Americans assume that equality before the law is a Constitutional principle? It was originally included in the Magna Carta which is much, much older.
And goes back even further, yes. However, this was just an example and not ment as a real argument. I chose the US Constitution as it is more 'known' than the Magna Carta to provide a common ground for my example.

If ya want to argue it though, feel free to make a thread and I'll pull in all sorts of documents. ;)

But equallity as something "right" and worth working for, IS an faith item. You believe in it, correct?

Not without mangling the notion of faith. If I were to say "equality just is right", that is a faith based position. If I say "equality is right because other instances of equality have led to improvements in human life" that is not a faith based position.


And I would no more belittle that. Yes, if you argue for equality based upon stats and so on, we can have a good debate. But how can we debate upon equality itself, a a notion, an idea, an article of faith if you will. We can't. You 'believe' in it. I could call that stupid, but why do so? It's pointless to. What you believe is what you believe.

If my argument is flawed [i.e. if equality hasn't led to improvements in human life] by all means feel free to trash it and label it as stupid. You can call it a turnip if you like.



Debating where that faith leads you however, is not so pointless, and yes, those ideas can be labled.


There is no faith involved. Your argument seems odd - you seem to be confusing "faith" with "knowledge".

Have you ever studied philosophy -- particularly ethics?

Apparently Plato, Aristotle, Augustine, Hobbes, Locke, Mill, Hume, Kant, Rawls, etc, have all been mentally masturbating. It was all pointless.
*LOL* YES! Yes it is! And actually my studies of philosphy brought me to this. There are so many damn (am I still allowed to say that on this thread?) ideas about these things, and none of them measure up when looked at. NONE OF THEM! None of them explain justice, not even the cogitive/moral devlopment theories of the early 20th. They all fall apart when looked at with the universe in mind. If mankind were the center... yeah, I could see these thoughts having truth. But he is not. we've proven THAT.

So, I figured, mankind must have Truths! We believe in them because we are human. We pick them... for whatever reason. Religion because we were raised that way. Social justice because we felt and throught that way. But they all stem from false premises. But it doesn't matter as we BELIEVE in them. And Jesus was right, faith moves mountains when humanity is concerned.

So, it becomes Truth, we go to work, school, home, wherever and live a boring life. We get online and spend hours debating over pointless arguments with people we shall never meet, and we get worked up over it when in reality... it doesn't mean one blessed thing. But since we believe, it does to us, and that's what's important.

Ya know, Tex is going to be very disapointed. He's going to get back online and find his thread has been stolen by a philosopical debate.

There is no faith involved. Your argument seems odd - you seem to be confusing "faith" with "knowledge". No, knowledge is different. I mean, prove to me equality actually exists. You are working towards something, what IS it? Show me it. Show me natural instances of it. Show me the physical laws that govern it. Prove it to me.

Shadows on the wall. But you believe. I'm not mangling faith, I'm expanding it.

No, knowledge is different. I mean, prove to me equality actually exists. You are working towards something, what IS it? Show me it. Show me natural instances of it. Show me the physical laws that govern it. Prove it to me.

Shadows on the wall. But you believe. I'm not mangling faith, I'm expanding it.

In relation to the franchise [as one example] - men and women have equal access to the vote [at least in the societies we are talking about here]. That is equality in that domain.

One thing I've noticed since the start of my posting here on NS is the number of people (quite a large number) that seem to be outright anti-Christian bigots. I guess this post is here to ask you a few questions.

Why? Why do you feel the need to deride and insult Christians on a constant basis? Why do you feel the need to try to make Christians "defend" their religion? Why do you feel you are so much more 'right' than they are? Also, why are you so arrogant and condescending about it?

I guess the main question is: what happened to you in your past to make you so hateful and bigoted towards Christians?
Simple we get upset at you trying to control our lives with no factual backup to your belief
Most of us keep it civil in the real world but this is our place to rant at all the restrictions your faith has imposed and will impose on the rest of us

If we are forced to live a certain way WE want proof of it (hence all the questioning)

Most of us were Christians at one point in time some of it is working out the details the feelings that got us to leave the church in the first place

You have a right to your belief but I will continue to question EVERYTHING in this world and beyond including the Christian church, the faith, their motives and their history.

1. I don't base my views on equality on the Constitution -- although I am happy they are enshrined there. I based them on my ethics.

2. You draw a distinction between opinions and faith because you have faith that you believe is special. Others, like myself, don't.

3. What you "know" cannot change? I thought that is exactly what happened to Saul/Paul.

4. The philosophical works of Terry Pratchett aside, I find nothing illogical or silly about either equality or the US Constitution.

5. Did you consider that calling equality illogical and silly could be as offensive to some as calling Christianity illogical and silly? Because it is. Which is fine. But if you can skewer my beliefs, I can skewer yours.
Ah Cat, I LOVE debating with you (I mean that sincerly, usually I can't find someone willing to go deep).

Ok, in answering your questions/statements:

1. Good! I'm glad you have well founded ethics, few too many people do. But what are they based off of, when you get to the nitty gritty? No, I don't mean, 'Oh in reality they are based off of religious stuffs' no, I mean really, where do you find them and how do you know them to be true?

2. You don't find my faith special, you don't draw that distinction, or do you feel that it is because of my faith I draw that distinction? I'm afraid I do not understand, please clarify for me.

3. Sorry, I should have been clearer. These rocks can only be changed by the self, not an outside agent. I cannot convince you in other words, you must convince yourself (which is why I never understood Bible thumping and door to door converstions). To change a base faith, the person changing must do it. With Saul it was the same way, he decided to change to Paul. God did not flip a switch inside him.

4. I quoted Pratchett because I happened to like the quote, it was very simplistic description of a very complex idea. I also find nothing (well, very little, but I see silliness in EVRYTHING) silly in the aforementioned document and I too fight for equality amoung all.

5. Yes, yes I did, which was my point. If I gave offence I deeply apologize
_/(-_-)\_ as I did not want to do so. My point being that it might seem silly to me, it's not to you. It might seem stupid to you, but not to me.

In relation to the franchise [as one example] - men and women have equal access to the vote [at least in the societies we are talking about here]. That is equality in that domain.
Such a thing was granted, therefore, not a natural state. No, I mean show me equality. In many of the creationist threads, one of the arguments used against them is the prove it by showing (with science in mind). That is what I ask. Otherwise, equality remains just an ideal, a beautiful dream and one worth fighting for and dying for. But still just a shadow.

No, knowledge is different. I mean, prove to me equality actually exists. You are working towards something, what IS it? Show me it. Show me natural instances of it. Show me the physical laws that govern it. Prove it to me.

Shadows on the wall. But you believe. I'm not mangling faith, I'm expanding it.

How clever. Anything that is not governed by physical laws is a matter of faith.

But then our knowledge of physical laws is based on our senses. And causation is illogical. (See Hume). :eek:

We really don't "know" anything. It is all "faith." Beyond perhaps cogito ergo sum.

So, everything we know and think is a matter of faith. :eek:

And we can't criticize faith. That is disrespectful. :eek:

We'd better sit on your hands and not debate anything.

Such a thing was granted, therefore, not a natural state. No, I mean show me equality. In many of the creationist threads, one of the arguments used against them is the prove it by showing (with science in mind). That is what I ask. Otherwise, equality remains just an ideal, a beautiful dream and one worth fighting for and dying for. But still just a shadow.

What you are asking is like "show me big" - equality is not an object, it is a description [admittedly reified for purposes of discussion].

A better example, looking back, would be g. If I state the g ~9.8 m/s/s that is a factual statement. It is not faith based.

If someone turns around and says "g is just not 9.8 m/s/s, it's not it's not it's not" that is a faith based position. The two do not have equal merit. The one can much more readily be [validly] labelled stupid and or wrong, whereas labelling the original statement as such would be itself stupid and or wrong.

Your argument [if I'm following it] seems to negate that difference - as if the christian sitting there saying "gays are evil just because" has the same merit as the non christian [or non whackjob christian] sitting there saying "eh, no - look around you at the simple facts". They don't - in that scenario [Cat Tribe usefully provides links to just such a discussion] the christian hasn't a leg to stand on. Their faith based position is wrong and stupid. That position would *still* be wrong and stupid were it adopted by anyone else.

If a christian takes offence to that assessment, they really need to ask themselves why they self identify with stupid positions.

4.Dispell the myth that Jesus was a calm and loving person. The Bible is very clear on this. He was a very tempermental person, especially concerning things involving corruption. He was also hardly the "help other people" kind of person. Instead, he was "Teach others to help themselves". Very rarely did he give a hand out, miracle or otherwise.

Is it just me or does this sound almost exactly like the Republicans platform? Hahah, you funny. :D

What two or more Christians believe in the privacy of their own church is none of my business. I have no right to interfere. I don't hate Christians; Christianity did give us Neon Genesis Evangelion, after all.

Actually, I don't have a problem with Christians at all as long as they don't have authoritarian politics and fall back on their interpretation of the Bible to back them up. If you're going to be a member of the US republican party, back your arguments up with something other than the Bible.

What two or more Christians believe in the privacy of their own church is none of my business. I have no right to interfere. I don't hate Christians; Christianity did give us Neon Genesis Evangelion, after all.

Actually, I don't have a problem with Christians at all as long as they don't have authoritarian politics and fall back on their interpretation of the Bible to back them up. If you're going to be a member of the US republican party, back your arguments up with something other than the Bible.

...Mary is seriously overdo for some fan service... hasn't been much since the Ren period.

I guess the main question is: what happened to you in your past to make you so hateful and bigoted towards Christians?

I'm a deist. Kind of a blend between that and Jedi saying of all surrounding energy.

And I have to say that CHRISTIANS have made me have a lot of disqust towards them and their organizations. People don't pick on Buddist or Shintos for a reason. They don't BOTHER anybody.

So far, no one has actually given a reason other than "I disagree with you, and I can hate you on the internet because there aren't any consequences here," and "You deserve it."

I'm not a Christian, but I get tired of seeing people taking pot-shots at Christianity without there being any outcry in response. When there is, it's quickly dismissed as extremist zealots bitching about oppresion that isn't there.

So, here's my question: if you hate Christians so much because they "force" you to accept what they believe, why aren't there any other anti-(insert religion) threads on this board when you can find three or four topics attacking Christianity and creationism on the first page of topics alone every day? Specifically, if you truly hate Christianity because it is absolute in its teaching that there is one God and that rejection of him leads to damnation, why does Islam get a free pass? Why aren't there even a fraction of the number of threads here that attack Christianity attacking Islam?

Because that would be hateful! We can't criticize Muslims, even though their prefered method of dealing with unbelievers is public torture and execution! Even though the only true Muslims are Arab-born Muslims and converts, especially black Muslims, are to still be treated as infidels and are to be killed, according to the Koran! None of that's important, because obviously Christians are hijacking this nation and plan to force the Bible down your collective throat's and put you all in death camps if you refuse to convert! Down with Christ! The revolution starts here, brothers!

This is not meant to be a hijacking of the post into a discussion of Islam, but rather to bring the absolute hypocrisy of your statements and your unbridaled hatred and bigotry front and center. You don't hate religions that tell you how to live your life, you just hate Christians. None of you have posted a reason yet that damns Christianity without damning every other religion known to man, but you don't dare criticize anything other than Christianity because it's become socially acceptable to bash Christianity throughout the world, but nothing else. You are cowards and bigots.

So far, no one has actually given a reason other than "I disagree with you, and I can hate you on the internet because there aren't any consequences here," and "You deserve it."

I'm not a Christian, but I get tired of seeing people taking pot-shots at Christianity without there being any outcry in response. When there is, it's quickly dismissed as extremist zealots bitching about oppresion that isn't there.

So, here's my question: if you hate Christians so much because they "force" you to accept what they believe, why aren't there any other anti-(insert religion) threads on this board when you can find three or four topics attacking Christianity and creationism on the first page of topics alone every day? Specifically, if you truly hate Christianity because it is absolute in its teaching that there is one God and that rejection of him leads to damnation, why does Islam get a free pass? Why aren't there even a fraction of the number of threads here that attack Christianity attacking Islam?

Because that would be hateful! We can't criticize Muslims, even though their prefered method of dealing with unbelievers is public torture and execution! Even though the only true Muslims are Arab-born Muslims and converts, especially black Muslims, are to still be treated as infidels and are to be killed, according to the Koran! None of that's important, because obviously Christians are hijacking this nation and plan to force the Bible down your collective throat's and put you all in death camps if you refuse to convert! Down with Christ! The revolution starts here, brothers!

This is not meant to be a hijacking of the post into a discussion of Islam, but rather to bring the absolute hypocrisy of your statements and your unbridaled hatred and bigotry front and center. You don't hate religions that tell you how to live your life, you just hate Christians. None of you have posted a reason yet that damns Christianity without damning every other religion known to man, but you don't dare criticize anything other than Christianity because it's become socially acceptable to bash Christianity throughout the world, but nothing else. You are cowards and bigots.
Thank you. I'm glad someone finally said this. I wasn't going to say it because, exactly for the reasons you stated, I would have been dismissed as a zealot at best and a racist anti-Muslim at worst.

So far, no one has actually given a reason other than "I disagree with you, and I can hate you on the internet because there aren't any consequences here," and "You deserve it."

I'm not a Christian, but I get tired of seeing people taking pot-shots at Christianity without there being any outcry in response. When there is, it's quickly dismissed as extremist zealots bitching about oppresion that isn't there.

So, here's my question: if you hate Christians so much because they "force" you to accept what they believe, why aren't there any other anti-(insert religion) threads on this board when you can find three or four topics attacking Christianity and creationism on the first page of topics alone every day? Specifically, if you truly hate Christianity because it is absolute in its teaching that there is one God and that rejection of him leads to damnation, why does Islam get a free pass? Why aren't there even a fraction of the number of threads here that attack Christianity attacking Islam?

Because that would be hateful! We can't criticize Muslims, even though their prefered method of dealing with unbelievers is public torture and execution! Even though the only true Muslims are Arab-born Muslims and converts, especially black Muslims, are to still be treated as infidels and are to be killed, according to the Koran! None of that's important, because obviously Christians are hijacking this nation and plan to force the Bible down your collective throat's and put you all in death camps if you refuse to convert! Down with Christ! The revolution starts here, brothers!

This is not meant to be a hijacking of the post into a discussion of Islam, but rather to bring the absolute hypocrisy of your statements and your unbridaled hatred and bigotry front and center. You don't hate religions that tell you how to live your life, you just hate Christians. None of you have posted a reason yet that damns Christianity without damning every other religion known to man, but you don't dare criticize anything other than Christianity because it's become socially acceptable to bash Christianity throughout the world, but nothing else. You are cowards and bigots.

Well obviously your vast experience on this form has brought you to this conclusion lol most of us do question almost all religions we see we constantly question everything not just Christianity

The reason you see us pick apart Christianity more is 1) They personally try to intrude themselves into my personal life more then any other religion and 2) More familiarity and contact with them and their doctrine

Thank you. I'm glad someone finally said this. I wasn't going to say it because, exactly for the reasons you stated, I would have been dismissed as a zealot at best and a racist anti-Muslim at worst.
You obviously have not paid attention to any of the debates on the Koran we have had on here they are not as common because it is rare to get someone to argue the other side

One thing I've noticed since the start of my posting here on NS is the number of people (quite a large number) that seem to be outright anti-Christian bigots. I guess this post is here to ask you a few questions.

Why? Why do you feel the need to deride and insult Christians on a constant basis? Why do you feel the need to try to make Christians "defend" their religion? Why do you feel you are so much more 'right' than they are? Also, why are you so arrogant and condescending about it?

I guess the main question is: what happened to you in your past to make you so hateful and bigoted towards Christians?

I have been on these threads for a while and have seen maybe one or two outright anti-Christian bigot. These people were usually quickly banned or at least stopped hanging out in the threads. I have yet to have any but the most militant atheists (who, in my book - and most atheist's books as well - are no better than fundamentalists of any religion) attack me for my religion.

Interestingly, I have seen just as many "Christians" attacking those talking about science as "Godless freaks" and other such labels.

What I have seen is people who feel that it is unacceptable to hold beliefs that are not yours. Saying "my preacher told me this" or "my mommy told me this" is not a good enough reason to say that you are absolutely right. In truth, it isn't even faith in God. It is faith in your preacher or your mommy.

Yeah! New day, coffee in the system, and a few more answers.

Stepping back for a sec, I would like to say thank you to you and Rus024 that I have enjoyed this debate, and I hope you have too. So, no hard feeling, ne?

How clever. Anything that is not governed by physical laws is a matter of faith.

But then our knowledge of physical laws is based on our senses. And causation is illogical. (See Hume). :eek:

We really don't "know" anything. It is all "faith." Beyond perhaps cogito ergo sum.

So, everything we know and think is a matter of faith. :eek:

And we can't criticize faith. That is disrespectful. :eek:

We'd better sit on your hands and not debate anything.
As previously stated, numerous times, by those who tackle the creationism/evo debates and so on, truth, as in facts, can only be 'proven' through science. Setting up, recording data, and reproducing. Scientific method in other words. I'm talking about these universals, which cannot be proven (or as you so elequently stated, philosphers from the centuries wouldn't have to debate about it, nor would we need to debate about it as we'd have it codified down to formula), these are Truths. We 'know' these because we need them. Just as humanity cannot grasp infinity, we cannot seem to function without them. The universals don't hold up well when applied, well, universally. Too many exceptions, too many differences. But we still accept them as True.

We need them, we really do. Do be able to go on with our lives without being paralized, we need them. Cogito ergo sum then becomes the starting point, we think, we're aware, we are. Because we are aware, we need to 'agree' on base Truths in order to make humanity work well enough to make coffee and everything else that goes on in human society. So we choose these Truths and to those who hold these Truths, they are as true as e=mc^2, or 2+2=4.

Debate is nessicary because we need some quazai form of agreement for these Truths to make them Truths for our society. We agree, in general, on Justice, but we argue about the particulars.

But we cannot ever KNOW Justice, as a forumla, just as we can never KNOW God as a formula.

And I never said you could not criticize faith, because indeed we need to in order to reach the agreements needed. I said that calling someone's faith stupid is disrespectful of that person. I can criticize President Bush, his actions, his words, and even his inturpritation of his faith, but I can do so without calling him a poo poo head. THAT has no place in debate!

And please don't sit on my hands, I know I have big hands, but not big enough for everyone. ;)

What you are asking is like "show me big" - equality is not an object, it is a description [admittedly reified for purposes of discussion].And yet it is treated as such, which is my point. We base an awful lot on these universals without checking to see if they could be real.

A better example, looking back, would be g. If I state the g ~9.8 m/s/s that is a factual statement. It is not faith based.

If someone turns around and says "g is just not 9.8 m/s/s, it's not it's not it's not" that is a faith based position. The two do not have equal merit. The one can much more readily be [validly] labelled stupid and or wrong, whereas labelling the original statement as such would be itself stupid and or wrong.

Your argument [if I'm following it] seems to negate that difference - as if the christian sitting there saying "gays are evil just because" has the same merit as the non christian [or non whackjob christian] sitting there saying "eh, no - look around you at the simple facts". They don't - in that scenario [Cat Tribe usefully provides links to just such a discussion] the christian hasn't a leg to stand on. Their faith based position is wrong and stupid. That position would *still* be wrong and stupid were it adopted by anyone else.

If a christian takes offence to that assessment, they really need to ask themselves why they self identify with stupid positions.
No, I am not negating it. I am saying that should you base an argument upon faith, then that is dogma, and can be debated/argued and critiqued.

Ok, let me see if I can explain where I am coming from. I am dividing faith from belief in SOMETHING, be it a univeral virtue/vice, religion, or what have you, from actions and views based upon that faith, which is dogma. The formula for gravity IS fact. It an be proven. Saying it's not is obviously silly. My point being though, there is no difference between a religion faith and belief in a universal. We accept those. Saying however that because I believe in equality, therefore I feel that men and women should be allowed to share the same dressingroom and bathrooms. I can, and possibly would, debate the point of sharing bathrooms. I might even debate the equality of men and women (as devil's advocate), but not debate or insult equality itself.

Big T Truths in other words, faith as less of a series of instructions and actions as a Rock to which you base your worldview on. WHAT those views are, we can debate. We can even debate about the size and shape of the rock, I just say calling the Rock itself, the one I'm standing on, as well as you, to keep my head above water, stupid and something that should be removed IS disrespectful.

It also has no point. A person with that rock removed quickly drowns.

But thank you both for the debate, it was very invigerating and enjoyable. The ball is in your court, or until next we tango... さよなら

Actually, I have never stated I hate Christians. I dislike many of their tactics, and I dislike the fundementalists "I'm right, and you're wrong." attitude. In several of the threads on here involving Paganism and/or witchcraft, there have been several Christian....zealots....(I couldn't think of a better word) that have told me that I'm going straight to hell because, basically, they believe I'm in league with the devil. This is actually quite common, so, yes, I feel I have a right to dislike many beliefs pushed by the Christian faith. When they start the "You need to accept Jesus/God...yadda yadda" speech, they are trying to push their beliefs on me. No, I don't have to accept them, but I also shouldn't have to deal with the disrespect that they are paying to my chosen path.

So far, no one has actually given a reason other than "I disagree with you, and I can hate you on the internet because there aren't any consequences here," and "You deserve it."

Of course, many of us have denied the allegation.

But skipping over that part is more convenient to your argument ...

I'm not a Christian, but I get tired of seeing people taking pot-shots at Christianity without there being any outcry in response. When there is, it's quickly dismissed as extremist zealots bitching about oppresion that isn't there.

Taking "pot-shots at Christianity"?

Like people take "pot-shots" at liberals, conservatives, libertarians, Democrats, Republicans, gays, vegans, the media, trekkies, communists, witchcraft, the NAACP, the ACLU, etc?

Why is the Christian cow the only the sacred one?

So, here's my question: if you hate Christians so much because they "force" you to accept what they believe, why aren't there any other anti-(insert religion) threads on this board when you can find three or four topics attacking Christianity and creationism on the first page of topics alone every day?

(I can only speak for myself on some of this. But if you 've been reading the thread -- or NS -- then you should know these points are true for most you are accusing of hating Christians.)

1. I DON'T HATE CHRISTIANS!!! Got it?

2. I'm growing increasingly irritated with people who cry "foul" anytime you disagree with them and they claim their opinion is based on religion.

3. I'm none too fond of any organized religion. And I have said so.

4. Creationism/evolution denial != Christianity. Most Christian denominations accept evolution and/or reject creation science.

5. There are a lot of vocal Christians on NS who make a point of sharing their views (and that those views are Christian). Thus, those Christian views get more responses and criticism than the Hindu viewpoint. Hatred has nothing to do with it.

6. There are usually one or more threads per day espousing Christianity, attacking evolution, denoucing athiests, and/or whining about how Christians are picked on.

Specifically, if you truly hate Christianity because it is absolute in its teaching that there is one God and that rejection of him leads to damnation, why does Islam get a free pass? Why aren't there even a fraction of the number of threads here that attack Christianity attacking Islam?

1. Fewer Moslems on here.

2. Much fewer moslems proselytizing or trumpting opinions based on their faith on here.

3. Fewer Moslems in the US, UK, and Australia. Much fewer moslems proselytizing or trumpting opinions based on their faith.

4. The Moslems on NS do not tend to start threads challening others to explain what is wrong with their religion, to prove the Koran false, etc. (Let alone get the responses requested and then create a separate thread whining about those responses.)

Because that would be hateful! We can't criticize Muslims, even though their prefered method of dealing with unbelievers is public torture and execution! Even though the only true Muslims are Arab-born Muslims and converts, especially black Muslims, are to still be treated as infidels and are to be killed, according to the Koran! None of that's important, because obviously Christians are hijacking this nation and plan to force the Bible down your collective throat's and put you all in death camps if you refuse to convert! Down with Christ! The revolution starts here, brothers!

This is not meant to be a hijacking of the post into a discussion of Islam, but rather to bring the absolute hypocrisy of your statements and your unbridaled hatred and bigotry front and center.

No one is allowed to criticize Islam or Moslems?

Funny you should say that:
Islam intollerant (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=413977&highlight=Islam)
# Israel+USA vs Islam...History of retributions (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=419463&highlight=Muslim)
Apostates from Islam (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=395227&highlight=Islam)
Islam wrestles with it's own sex abuse scandal (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=380456&highlight=Islam)
Muslims, is what this website describes accurate? (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=408965&highlight=Islam)
The new Nazi Youth anyone? (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=387176&highlight=Muslim)

(As an aside: Why Atheism is Folly (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=415198&highlight=Muslim) )

You don't hate religions that tell you how to live your life, you just hate Christians. None of you have posted a reason yet that damns Christianity without damning every other religion known to man, but you don't dare criticize anything other than Christianity because it's become socially acceptable to bash Christianity throughout the world, but nothing else. You are cowards and bigots.

Several of us posted why we will criticize any inane post or argument -- Christian or not.

That includes yours.

Of course, many of us have denied the allegation.

But skipping over that part is more convenient to your argument ...

See, now your victimhood complex comes front and center. I never said "Everyone who isn't a Christian obviously hates them!" If I had, I'd be implicating myself, which you'd realize from what I said right off the bat: I'm not a Christian. You went ahead and assumed that I was criticizing everyone who's posted, but I was responding to the people who've all admitted to and justified their hatred. Maybe you should think about, just try to, the fact that not everything is about you. You're taking offense to something that doesn't even apply to you. Way to go.


Taking "pot-shots at Christianity"?

Like people take "pot-shots" at liberals, conservatives, libertarians, Democrats, Republicans, gays, vegans, the media, trekkies, communists, witchcraft, the NAACP, the ACLU, etc?

Why is the Christian cow the only the sacred one?

Are we talking about any of those other topics? No. We're discussing religions, and it has become very apparent that Christianity is fair game, while every other religion is untouchable. Nice try to veer off-topic and just ignore that fact.

1. I DON'T HATE CHRISTIANS!!! Got it?

Never said YOU did.

2. I'm growing increasingly irritated with people who cry "foul" anytime you disagree with them and they claim their opinion is based on religion.

Not quite sure what this has to do with anything. If it's adressed to me, again, I'M NOT A CHRISTIAN. If it's directed at the topic creator, he isn't using his religion as a shield for any argument, he's simply asking why there are such a large number of anti-Christian threads on these forums. Of course, this could always just be another instance of you going off-topic and making something that isn't about you all about you.

4. Creationism/evolution denial != Christianity. Most Christian denominations accept evolution and/or reject creation science.

A) LOL, no, they don't and B) again, this has nothing to do with the topic unless you want to try to suggest there aren't really too many anti-Christian threads because the anti-Creationism threads don't really qualify.

5. There are a lot of vocal Christians on NS who make a point of sharing their views (and that those views are Christian). Thus, those Christian views get more responses and criticism than the Hindu viewpoint. Hatred has nothing to do with it.

Again, it's their fault that they get criticized, huh? God forbid they express their views.

2. Much fewer moslems proselytizing or trumpting opinions based on their faith on here.

Again, you make it very clear that if anyone has an opinion that you disagree with, they should shut up.

3. Fewer Moslems in the US, UK, and Australia. Much fewer moslems proselytizing or trumpting opinions based on their faith.

See above.

4. The Moslems on NS do not tend to start threads challening others to explain what is wrong with their religion, to prove the Koran false, etc. (Let alone get the responses requested and then create a separate thread whining about those responses.)

Yes, there are an incredible number of threads titled "Please tell me I'm an idiot for believing in God," or "I sure wish someone would discuss how they use the Bible for toiletpaper." Those stupid Christians. They're just asking for it.[/sarcasm]

No one is allowed to criticize Islam or Moslems?

Funny you should say that:
Islam intollerant (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=413977&highlight=Islam)
# Israel+USA vs Islam...History of retributions (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=419463&highlight=Muslim)
Apostates from Islam (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=395227&highlight=Islam)
Islam wrestles with it's own sex abuse scandal (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=380456&highlight=Islam)
Muslims, is what this website describes accurate? (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=408965&highlight=Islam)
The new Nazi Youth anyone? (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=387176&highlight=Muslim)

(As an aside: Why Atheism is Folly (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=415198&highlight=Muslim) )

Congrats. You were able to sift through pages of threads and come up with... ONE that was younger than from two weeks ago (thread #2, which is just as much a criticism of the U.S. and Israel as it is Islam), while the others were all from:

4/21/05
3/31/05
2/5/05
1/6/05
12/10/04

You're right. There are definitely a proportinate number of threads that criticize other religions in comparison to those attacking Christianity, every day.

Several of us posted why we will criticize any inane post or argument -- Christian or not.

That includes yours.

You a meanie!!!1! Me give up and go cry now! :rolleyes:

The bottom line is: you freaked out about something that wasn't even directed at you. Interesting. Someone could read into that fact in a number of ways. As the Bard said: "Me thinks you protest too much."

The type of Christians that are the source of Anti-Christian Bigotry are few, but they're loud:

GOD created all! So for those of you that have been brainwashed by the current immoral public school system, believe as you wish. That is why GOD gave us all free will. If the Big Bang ocuured..... prove it. Were you there? So evolution is an act of faith as well.

Most people reject GOD, because they don't want to lead moral and decent lives. They tend to choose the comfortable and sinful lifestyles that sooths their FLESH. They are however, unwilling to die for it.

On the other hand, true believers in GOD, tend to be humble and obediant servents that sooths their SOULS. Even to the point of being mocked, persucuted or even put to death for their faith.

Glory be to GOD allmighty!

Robert




This is from this (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=8891867)[ thread. It continues AT LEAST until page 38.

Are we talking about any of those other topics? No. We're discussing religions, and it has become very apparent that Christianity is fair game, while every other religion is untouchable. Nice try to veer off-topic and just ignore that fact.

Every religion has a nearly perfect probability of being incorrect. That means that Islam, Judaism, Hinduism are almost surely incorrect.

Any recognition of those religions and any other by government is unethical.

All religions have hateful bastards who want nothing more than to eliminate all religions outside their own.

No religion is untouchable, I just bet that very few posters on NS could adequately discuss the virtues of these religions, and those that do would not bother as they understand the nature of religion and religious choice.

personally I can't figure out how christianity has survived as long as it has there's so much real physical proof of evolution and only a book that says otherwise... so many families raise their children to be christian and their children teach their children and so on and so forth.. I think it has something to do with there vast numbers that keeps the religion going.

I'm not a Christian nor a scientist but I know evolution is still a theory, there is no real physical proof or it wouldn't still be a theory.

To everyone who thinks Evolution "is only a theory."

You need to go to the top of the highest structure you can find and jump off. On the way down just repeat to yourself that Newtonian Gravity is only a theory, and one that has been proven incomplete.

After you've conducted this experiment, come back and let us all know how it went.

See, now your victimhood complex comes front and center. I never said "Everyone who isn't a Christian obviously hates them!" If I had, I'd be implicating myself, which you'd realize from what I said right off the bat: I'm not a Christian. You went ahead and assumed that I was criticizing everyone who's posted, but I was responding to the people who've all admitted to and justified their hatred. Maybe you should think about, just try to, the fact that not everything is about you. You're taking offense to something that doesn't even apply to you. Way to go.

LOL.

1. You are right, the thread is about largely mythical anti-Christian haters that may or may not exist, but make a good bogeyman. Perhaps their illusory status explains why your original argument about how no one had justified the anti-Christian haters actions.

2. I realize you are not a Christian. Proves that non-Christians can say erroneous things and get criticized for it.

3. Who "admitted ... their hatred"? And I thought your whole rant was no one even tried to justified it? There are perhaps a small hand full of NS posters that actually hate Christians. There are appear to be as many or more than actually hate non-Christians.

4. For the record, (a) I am one of those who are the subject of this thread -- those erroneously identified by people like Tex as anti-Christian simply because I disagree with them, (b) I was identified by name by the thread's author (Tex) as an anti-Christian, and (c) others in this thread have also said I am anti-Christian simply because I argue that one may dare to disagree with a Christian's beliefs.

5. I expressly noted that I cannot speak for everyone accused of being anti-Christian, but that I believed I was representative of the majority of those so accused.

6. Aren't ad hominem attacks fun? Sure beats dealing with substance.

Are we talking about any of those other topics? No. We're discussing religions, and it has become very apparent that Christianity is fair game, while every other religion is untouchable. Nice try to veer off-topic and just ignore that fact.

Nice try at ignoring that Christianity, like every other religion or belief system, is fair game.

Are you suggesting that one should not be able to criticize Christianity or Christians? If not, then your complaint is merely that Christians are somehow singled out -- which is what I was disproving.

Never said YOU did.

Others have. And the accusation is no more true about most allegedly "anti-Christian" posters than with me.

Not quite sure what this has to do with anything. If it's adressed to me, again, I'M NOT A CHRISTIAN. If it's directed at the topic creator, he isn't using his religion as a shield for any argument, he's simply asking why there are such a large number of anti-Christian threads on these forums. Of course, this could always just be another instance of you going off-topic and making something that isn't about you all about you.

Actually, I would specifically accuse the topic creator as using his religion as a shield against criticism of his opinions.

And I was giving an example of one type of conduct that causing many to be hostile to Christians on these forums: the idea that they can argue positions based on their faith but that you are not allowed to criticize those arguments.

A) LOL, no, they don't and B) again, this has nothing to do with the topic unless you want to try to suggest there aren't really too many anti-Christian threads because the anti-Creationism threads don't really qualify.

1. "No, they don't", what? Are you unaware that most Christian denominations accept evolution, tolerate evolution, and/or reject creation science? Or are you admiting that creationism is not Christianity and vice versa.

2. Yes. Anti-creationism threads are not necessarily anti-Christian.

3. Have you utterly failed to notice the numerous anti-evolution threads? Those haters!

Again, it's their fault that they get criticized, huh? God forbid they express their views.

They are allowed and should express their views. And they should expect some people will disagree with those views and criticize them. Everyone else does.

Welcome to the concept of a forum. :rolleyes:

Again, you make it very clear that if anyone has an opinion that you disagree with, they should shut up.

No. To the contrary, they should speak up. But they shouldn't whine simply because we do not prostrate themselves before their divinely inspired wisdom.

I and anyone else can disagree with any other poster's opinion -- whether they be Christian, Jew, Hindu, or Martian.

Unless anyone that has an opinon that disagrees with a Christian should just shut up.

Yes, there are an incredible number of threads titled "Please tell me I'm an idiot for believing in God," or "I sure wish someone would discuss how they use the Bible for toiletpaper." Those stupid Christians. They're just asking for it.[/sarcasm]

I must have missed the "Only idiots believe in God" and "I use the Bible for toiletpaper threads." Please feel free to link.

If you haven't paid attention to the threads asking for people to try to disprove God, explain what is wrong with Christianity, disprove the Bible, etc, do some searches. They are rather common.

Congrats. You were able to sift through pages of threads and come up with... ONE that was younger than from two weeks ago (thread #2, which is just as much a criticism of the U.S. and Israel as it is Islam), while the others were all from:

4/21/05
3/31/05
2/5/05
1/6/05
12/10/04

I didn't sift through pages of threads. I ran a simple search for threads with Islam in the title and linked some of the more obviously anti-Islamic ones.

There are many, many more threads in which Islam is bashed.

You're right. There are definitely a proportinate number of threads that criticize other religions in comparison to those attacking Christianity, every day.

Proportionate to what? That is rather the question, isn't it?



The bottom line is: you freaked out about something that wasn't even directed at you. Interesting. Someone could read into that fact in a number of ways. As the Bard said: "Me thinks you protest too much."

Your bottom is erroneous, as described above.

And your "quote" of Shakespeare is only slightly less flawed than your arguments. :D

To everyone who thinks Evolution "is only a theory."

You need to go to the top of the highest structure you can find and jump off. On the way down just repeat to yourself that Newtonian Gravity is only a theory, and one that has been proven incomplete.

After you've conducted this experiment, come back and let us all know how it went.
The tallest structure I could find is a toaster ... is that good enough?

The tallest structure I could find is a toaster ... is that good enough?
I have a nice table I could lend you. It might be taller than the toaster, but since it's a Japanese kontatsu there's actually a good chance the toaster is taller. ;)

Are we talking about any of those other topics? No. We're discussing religions, and it has become very apparent that Christianity is fair game, while every other religion is untouchable. Nice try to veer off-topic and just ignore that fact.

If anyone from another religion wants to chime in, their views go straight into the "fair game" category.

It just so happens that, as Cat Tribe explained, christians happen to be here "sharing" their views. That means that those views are going to be discussed.

Simple really.

If anyone from another religion wants to chime in, their views go straight into the "fair game" category.

It just so happens that, as Cat Tribe explained, christians happen to be here "sharing" their views. That means that those views are going to be discussed.

Simple really.
I still think it's a need for some people to "prove" themselves by struggling against others about their views and then turning that into an attack on their religion, again to prove it.

Maybe we should get some lions for these people so they can toss themselves in and be done with it.

I think the reason, no I know the reason most people are anti-religion or christian. It is because the majority, 98% or so, do not understand the very religion they claim to follow and ignorance in the wrong hands is very dangerous. Would you hand a two year old a gun and allow them to fire it, no then why would you allow a person to use a religion i.e. christianity ,which by the way has been responible for more deaths then all major wars combined, when the person has no idea how to use said religion. :sniper: Oh yeah and for all you christians just remember if it was'nt for Satan we would'nt even have christians, so thank him tonight in you're prayers.

I have a nice table I could lend you. It might be taller than the toaster, but since it's a Japanese kontatsu there's actually a good chance the toaster is taller. ;)
I found a desk chair! Im all set!

One thing I've noticed since the start of my posting here on NS is the number of people (quite a large number) that seem to be outright anti-Christian bigots. I guess this post is here to ask you a few questions.

Why? Why do you feel the need to deride and insult Christians on a constant basis? Why do you feel the need to try to make Christians "defend" their religion? Why do you feel you are so much more 'right' than they are? Also, why are you so arrogant and condescending about it?

I guess the main question is: what happened to you in your past to make you so hateful and bigoted towards Christians?

Please define what you mean by the term "Christian".

I guess the main question is: what happened to you in your past to make you so hateful and bigoted towards Christians?

George W. Bush.

To everyone who thinks Evolution "is only a theory."

You need to go to the top of the highest structure you can find and jump off. On the way down just repeat to yourself that Newtonian Gravity is only a theory, and one that has been proven incomplete.

After you've conducted this experiment, come back and let us all know how it went.
*climbs to the top of the tallest local skyscraper*

*drop a cat off the side*

*judges the large splat on the sidewalk*

*scribbles in a notebook*

Nope. Didn't turn into a bird on the way down.

:p

George W. Bush.
That man is no Christian. At least not by the standards of most of my Christian friends.

The tallest structure I could find is a toaster ... is that good enough?
If you take it to the edge of a cliff or the middle of some bridge it should be just enough.