NationStates Jolt Archive

There are three main questions stopping me from converting to Chritsianity. If you do answer them, don't do it with 'God works in mysterious ways'.

1) Why does God not wish us to have proof of his existance?
What can he possibly get out of us believing in him that he can't get out of us being certain that he exists?

2) Why did Jesus give the church the power to forgive sins?
If I sin and repent, why do I need to have some priest tell me I'm forgiven? If I have repented I will be forgiven at the judgment. The church gathered a lot of power and money through their ability to forgive sins so why would Jesus give them that power if he knew damn well they would become corrupt?

3) With the hundreds of religions we have, what makes Christianity any more correct than Islam, Hinduism, Buddism, etc?
Since the very beginning of communication the question has been raised, "How did we get here?". In a time of such primitive knowledge of the universe, the only option of explaination was the supernatural. They used God[s] to explain fire, rain, love, human existance, etc. We have for some time been able to explain fire, rain and love(to an extent). Just because the only question left is "How did we get here, which we can't currently answer, why do we still insist on using God to explain it?

There are three main questions stopping me from converting to Chritsianity. If you do answer them, don't do it with 'God works in mysterious ways'.

1) Why does God not wish us to have proof of his existance?
What can he possibly get out of us believing in him that he can't get out of us being certain that he exists?

2) Why did Jesus give the church the power to forgive sins?
If I sin and repent, why do I need to have some priest tell me I'm forgiven? If I have repented I will be forgiven at the judgment. The church gathered a lot of power and money through their ability to forgive sins so why would Jesus give them that power if he knew damn well they would become corrupt?

3) With the hundreds of religions we have, what makes Christianity any more correct than Islam, Hinduism, Buddism, etc?
Since the very beginning of communication the question has been raised, "How did we get here?". In a time of such primitive knowledge of the universe, the only option of explaination was the supernatural. They used God[s] to explain fire, rain, love, human existance, etc. We have for some time been able to explain fire, rain and love(to an extent). Just because the only question left is "How did we get here, which we can't currently answer, why do we still insist on using God to explain it?

Exactly why I'm an atheist.

Funny how the Christians (Of which I know there are many on the forums) avoid this thread.

They know when they've been beaten

1) Why does God not wish us to have proof of his existance?
What can he possibly get out of us believing in him that he can't get out of us being certain that he exists?
That would take away a certain ammount of free will. You choose either to believe in Him or not.
2) Why did Jesus give the church the power to forgive sins?
If I sin and repent, why do I need to have some priest tell me I'm forgiven? If I have repented I will be forgiven at the judgment. The church gathered a lot of power and money through their ability to forgive sins so why would Jesus give them that power if he knew damn well they would become corrupt?
I read nowhere in the Bible that Jesus gave the Church the right to forgive sins. That's a point of contention between Catholics and Protestants. (I'm a non-denominational Protestant.)
3) With the hundreds of religions we have, what makes Christianity any more correct than Islam, Hinduism, Buddism, etc?
That's also a matter of choice. I choose Christianity as my religion. I guess we'll just find out who's right after we die. ;)

That would take away a certain ammount of free will. You choose either to believe in Him or not.

*SNIP*

That's also a matter of choice. I choose Christianity as my religion. I guess we'll just find out who's right after we die. ;)

That proved...Nothing.

If you expect to get Proof of God on the NationStates forums, you're definitely looking in the wrong place.

If you expect to get Proof of God on the NationStates forums, you're definitely looking in the wrong place.

You seem to have the experience to know.

"Posts: 2"

Christain here.. I don't really think any religion is over another. If you truly want to be an atheist, It's fine with me. Your choice.

That would take away a certain ammount of free will. You choose either to believe in Him or not.

I read nowhere in the Bible that Jesus gave the Church the right to forgive sins. That's a point of contention between Catholics and Protestants. (I'm a non-denominational Protestant.)

That's also a matter of choice. I choose Christianity as my religion. I guess we'll just find out who's right after we die. ;)

What's the point in free will to believe. It's free will to love that matters.

Matthew 16:18-19

"And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hades will not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven"

Jesus told Peter to bulid the catholic church, Peter became the first pope, the church had the keys to heaven and power to forgive sins.

There are three main questions stopping me from converting to Chritsianity. If you do answer them, don't do it with 'God works in mysterious ways'.

1) Why does God not wish us to have proof of his existance?
What can he possibly get out of us believing in him that he can't get out of us being certain that he exists?

2) Why did Jesus give the church the power to forgive sins?
If I sin and repent, why do I need to have some priest tell me I'm forgiven? If I have repented I will be forgiven at the judgment. The church gathered a lot of power and money through their ability to forgive sins so why would Jesus give them that power if he knew damn well they would become corrupt?

3) With the hundreds of religions we have, what makes Christianity any more correct than Islam, Hinduism, Buddism, etc?
Since the very beginning of communication the question has been raised, "How did we get here?". In a time of such primitive knowledge of the universe, the only option of explaination was the supernatural. They used God[s] to explain fire, rain, love, human existance, etc. We have for some time been able to explain fire, rain and love(to an extent). Just because the only question left is "How did we get here, which we can't currently answer, why do we still insist on using God to explain it?
1. Well, that's the whole point, now isn't it? To prove one's devotion to God, one must believe in Him. It'd be too easy to simply know; you must want to believe.
2. You've got it mixed up. Priests are not the ones who forgive sin; they are conduits to Jesus. It's based on the fact that Jesus appointed Peter to be his representative on earth (1st Pope) and thus Peter, and his church, became representatives of Jesus on earth.
3. It's mainly a matter of choosing and gut feeling. However, of all the religions in existance, Christianity has the most documented evidence. (lots o' historical records from the era, plus many of the events/areas referenced in the Bible have been confirmed through archeology, the Shroud of Turin and other miracles, etc.) Sure, it's not rock hard evidence, but it's more than other religions.

They know when they've been beaten

Why beat our heads senseless against another persons wall of hatred and ignorance again?
Personally Ive been through this about five times, its pointless, you either believe or you dont, its that simple.
Just couldnt be bothered anymore, atheists are beyond human help.

That proved...Nothing.
I don't feel that I have to prove anything. :)

1. Well, that's the whole point, now isn't it? To prove one's devotion to God, one must believe in Him. It'd be too easy to simply know; you must want to believe.
2. You've got it mixed up. Priests are not the ones who forgive sin; they are conduits to Jesus. It's based on the fact that Jesus appointed Peter to be his representative on earth (1st Pope) and thus Peter, and his church, became representatives of Jesus on earth.
3. It's mainly a matter of choosing and gut feeling. However, of all the religions in existance, Christianity has the most documented evidence. (lots o' historical records from the era, plus many of the events/areas referenced in the Bible have been confirmed through archeology, the Shroud of Turin and other miracles, etc.) Sure, it's not rock hard evidence, but it's more than other religions.

To have devotion to God, you don't need to be unsure of his existance. The angel Lucifer was sure of Gods existance but decided to rebel againts him. You can love God just as much if you can see him than you can if you can't see him.

And yes you're right about the second point but my point was why does God need a representative on earth?

There are three main questions stopping me from converting to Chritsianity. If you do answer them, don't do it with 'God works in mysterious ways'.

1) Why does God not wish us to have proof of his existance?
What can he possibly get out of us believing in him that he can't get out of us being certain that he exists?

2) Why did Jesus give the church the power to forgive sins?
If I sin and repent, why do I need to have some priest tell me I'm forgiven? If I have repented I will be forgiven at the judgment. The church gathered a lot of power and money through their ability to forgive sins so why would Jesus give them that power if he knew damn well they would become corrupt?

3) With the hundreds of religions we have, what makes Christianity any more correct than Islam, Hinduism, Buddism, etc?
Since the very beginning of communication the question has been raised, "How did we get here?". In a time of such primitive knowledge of the universe, the only option of explaination was the supernatural. They used God[s] to explain fire, rain, love, human existance, etc. We have for some time been able to explain fire, rain and love(to an extent). Just because the only question left is "How did we get here, which we can't currently answer, why do we still insist on using God to explain it?

1. "For from the first making of the world, those things of God which the eye is unable to see, that is, his eternal power and existence, are fully made clear, he having given the knowledge of them through the things which he has made, so that men have no reason for wrongdoing:"
Romans 1:20

2. You do not need a priest to tell you whether you have been forgiven - you need a Bible and a sure heart. "For with the heart man has faith to get righteousness, and with the mouth he says that Jesus is Lord to get salvation." Romans 10:10

3. No other proper religious leader claims that He himself is God - except Jesus. At the same time, no other proper religious leader suffers such a gruelling death with the noble cause of rescuing the world's sins. This shows the personality of God: justice and love at the same time.

I don't feel that I have to prove anything. :)

You don't. But as far as defending Christianity, you've failed. But of course, I haven't met anyone who hasn't.

Why beat our heads senseless against another persons wall of hatred and ignorance again?
Personally Ive been through this about five times, its pointless, you either believe or you dont, its that simple.
Just couldnt be bothered anymore, atheists are beyond human help.

I do this every day at school and get nowhere. I know how you feel. But it's not pointless. All I need to believe is a reasonable answer to these questions. That wouldn't give me proof, I don't need proof, just beyond reasonable doubt.

What's the point in free will to believe. It's free will to love that matters.

Matthew 16:18-19

"And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hades will not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven"

Jesus told Peter to bulid the catholic church, Peter became the first pope, the church had the keys to heaven and power to forgive sins.
Please reread that and point out to me where it says that the church has the power to forgive sins.

1. "For from the first making of the world, those things of God which the eye is unable to see, that is, his eternal power and existence, are fully made clear, he having given the knowledge of them through the things which he has made, so that men have no reason for wrongdoing:"
Roman 1:20

2. You do not need a priest to tell you whether you have been forgiven - you need a Bible and a sure heart.

3. No other proper religious leader claims that He himself is God - except Jesus. At the same time, no other proper religious leader suffers such a gruelling death with the noble cause of rescuing the world's sins. This shows the personality of God: justice and love at the same time.

Using the bible to explain Christianity...that proves nothing either.

There are three main questions stopping me from converting to Chritsianity. If you do answer them, don't do it with 'God works in mysterious ways'.

1) Why does God not wish us to have proof of his existance?
What can he possibly get out of us believing in him that he can't get out of us being certain that he exists?

2) Why did Jesus give the church the power to forgive sins?
If I sin and repent, why do I need to have some priest tell me I'm forgiven? If I have repented I will be forgiven at the judgment. The church gathered a lot of power and money through their ability to forgive sins so why would Jesus give them that power if he knew damn well they would become corrupt?

3) With the hundreds of religions we have, what makes Christianity any more correct than Islam, Hinduism, Buddism, etc?
Since the very beginning of communication the question has been raised, "How did we get here?". In a time of such primitive knowledge of the universe, the only option of explaination was the supernatural. They used God[s] to explain fire, rain, love, human existance, etc. We have for some time been able to explain fire, rain and love(to an extent). Just because the only question left is "How did we get here, which we can't currently answer, why do we still insist on using God to explain it?

Alright, I'm not a catholic, I'm not even sure if I'm a christian. Let's put me down as an agnostic scientist. I believe that natural processes created the universe, but concede (and hope) that there may be a greater spiritual significance to the whole kit and caboodle.

I'll try to answer these questions, but please bear in mind that I'm answering on behalf of what I understand *other people* to believe. These are not my personal beliefs.

1) Why does God not wish us to have proof of his existance?
So that we can have Faith. It's like the difference in saying "I know I'll be alright, because I put a phone call in to the police, and they will be here soon" and "I know I'll be alright, because my daddy is here, and he will protect me". One is based on evidence, and the other on a gut reaction, an unproven trust.
Faith is very important to many religions, and, unfortunately, is also the thing that makes it so hard to scientifically discuss them. It also leads to irrational (in the scientific term, not trying to be insulting!) beliefs.
If we had proof that God existed, assuming he is the God from christian mythology, all-powerful, and holding the keys to heaven, then worshiping him would be a no-brainer.
Without proof, we have the choice of accepting God into our hearts, it's something we have to go out and choose for yourselves.
Although the end result might be the same, the reasons we take up the religion would be totally different.

2) Why did Jesus give the church the power to forgive sins?
Did he? I came from a greek orthodox upbringing, and we don't have confessions there. I think the idea is that the church is there to provide you with spiritual guidance. If you've sinned, and want forgiveness, you can ask for forgiveness from God, and it will happen. But, us social humans, often need to talk to other people. It's a human thing. It is much more comforting, if you're feeling guilt for sinning, and your priest tells you "it's all ok", than just to say "hey, god, I'm really sorry...". Just asking for forgiveness is all God asks to cleanse your sins. Confessing to the priest is for you, not God.
Of course, that concept has been abused, changed, or become part of the institution over time. I think most catholic churches accept that it's fine to go to confession, say "forgive me, for I have sinned" and leave it at that. It's an opportunity to stop each week, and think about what you've done wrong, so next time you can do it right. Without the confession, you might not stop to think about it. I know I usually don't.

3) With the hundreds of religions we have, what makes Christianity any more correct than Islam, Hinduism, Buddism, etc?
Good question. I know my spirituality is of a christian framework, because of my upbringing.
The religious answer is "you need to have Faith, and my Faith tells me that christianity is right". But, as you requested, we can't say "God works in mysterious ways" to answer these questions.
What I can say is that christianity has a lot of good messages, and good morals. For some people, it's the right way to live their life. For some people, the christian belief in god is a comforting spiritual concept.
Same with Islam, Hinduism and Buddism.

Then again, I've never been one to accept a religion whole-cloth. I would get told off at bible camp for being so arrogant that I expect God to be like I expect, and not the other way around. Personally, they tell me to search in my heart for God, and when I do, and say "Well, if a God exists, this is what my heart tells me" then either I'm reading it wrong, you can't truly know God in your heart, or their advice to me was bad. Either way, to my way of thinking, the right religion is the one that "clicks" for you, and helps you life a better, happier, more moral life. Regardless of what you happen to name your God or Gods.

1. probobly the hardest to answer, and I doubt mine will be satisfactory. I mean, I've wondered the same thing too sometimes. One answer is God decided to let the witness of Christians speak for him, as the Bible puts it, Christ in you so to say. Depending on what Christians you meet, that might seem like a really bad plan. Then there's the whole, "creation gives evidence of God", but I don't think that can be an excuse from your perspective.
One thing that I can think of is that even if God showed up, people would still choose not to believe, not in the sense of knowing he's there, but to follow him you know. Precious few people followed Jesus at first (discrediting the crowds that left him). even when He performed miracles and amazed them. In a parable Jesus gave about hell, the man in hell requests that Jesus could send the man's former servant to his family to warn them that they might believe. Jesus replies that they have Moses and the prophets, if those won't convinse them, neither will the servant rising from the dead and warning them. not a complete answer I know.
2. I personally don't believe the church has any spiritual powers to forgive sin. I believe the disciples were at the beginning of the ministry, but, they had seen Christ. I myself have never confessed anything to a chuch member so as to acheive a salvation of some sort.
3. The reason I believe in Christianity basically comes down to this question. I believe Jesus Christ rose from the dead. No one else has done that. Mohammed is dead; as far as I know, no Hindu god had claimed to do anything miraculous of such a magnitude. Buddism is a way of life that wouldn't really matter if we are to live like the Bible says. The Bible itself says in I Corinthians 5? that if Christ didn't rise from the dead, we are to be pitied more than all. Many people have tried to disprove the resurrection, and manny have come back Christians cuz of the evidence they find. I would lood into that if you're interested. if you want me to show you what I know, just ask. I t would just take up a lot more space and this is long already.

Using the bible to explain Christianity...that proves nothing either.


What??? But if you do not use economics to explain economics, what would? How can you explain calculus with art???
Credible explanation requires quotes and jargon, no???

You don't. But as far as defending Christianity, you've failed. But of course, I haven't met anyone who hasn't.
You have serious issues if you think I have to "defend" my religion. SERIOUS issues.

Why I'm an Atheist

Because the Devil ate your soul?

Jesus told Peter to bulid the catholic church, Peter became the first pope, the church had the keys to heaven and power to forgive sins.
That's YOUR interpretation and YOUR "literal church" burned thousands of my brothers-in-faith to make that noone ever will say something different...
1) Why does God not wish us to have proof of his existance?
What can he possibly get out of us believing in him that he can't get out of us being certain that he exists?
He does. It's our arrogance to not notice it. Every time I see blossoming flower, a sunshine. When you will clear your thoughts totally, when you will stop talking and start to listen - you'll hear Him/Her/It/Everything. Life, Goodness, Love, Friendship - for me those are manifestations of God's Will - NOT Catholic Church. It has nothing to do with faith although many good Christians are Catholics. For me it's not important to chose between Islam/Buddhism/Chraistianity/etc. I just follow Jesus' NOT Catholic's teachings. What is your path? Know Thyself ;)

That's YOUR interpretation and YOUR "literal church" burned thousands of my brothers-in-faith to make that noone ever will say something different...

He does. It's our arrogance to not notice it. Every time I see blossoming flower, a sunshine. When you will clear your thoughts totally, when you will stop talking and start to listen - you'll hear Him/Her/It/Everything. Life, Goodness, Love, Friendship - for me those are manifestations of God's Will - NOT Catholic Church. It has nothing to do with faith although many good Christians are Catholics. For me it's not important to chose between Islam/Buddhism/Chraistianity/etc. I just follow Jesus' NOT Catholic's teachings. What is your path? Know Thyself ;)

Reminds me of the Chinese saying:

"it's there if you believe it, it's not if you don't".

I find it difficult to believe, no matter how much I try or want to. I want there to be a God because: it means that there is an afterlife, and I don't want to stop existing; there will be justice after death, it makes you feel better to think that people who do bad things will be submitted to devine justice; it means that there is someone who knows everything and can appreciate everything that has happened or been done, every struggle and passion. It would be comforting if I could believe in this.

While I do believe in Jesus' ideas I find it difficult to believe in God.

*SNIP*

He does. It's our arrogance to not notice it. Every time I see blossoming flower, a sunshine.

The sun was formed by a collapsing Nebula. A flower is merely an organism. Science explains both of those things.

What??? But if you do not use economics to explain economics, what would? How can you explain calculus with art???
Credible explanation requires quotes and jargon, no???
But there is no proof of the bible (no real proof of most of the things claimed) so using the bible as proof really does not prove anything

Yes it can help explain why some of the beliefs are they way they are but they dont verify anything

There are three main questions stopping me from converting to Chritsianity. If you do answer them, don't do it with 'God works in mysterious ways'.

I'll try answer these.

1) Why does God not wish us to have proof of his existance?
What can he possibly get out of us believing in him that he can't get out of us being certain that he exists?

There is much proof that he exists. There is a ton of things in the bible that back this up. In the book of Job, God is angry with Job and is asking lots of questions of Job to show that Job isn't as great as he thinks he is. This is chapter 38 verse 31, (remember this was written thousands of years ago) it says "Can you bind the beauiful Pleiades?...Can you loose the cords of Orion?".

You maybe thinking "what the hell does that have to do with anything?" but just recently (as in like 30 years or so) scientists have discovered that there are 2 types of star constellations; 1 type that drifts apart, 1 that stays the same. It just so happens that Pleiades is a constellation that drifts apart (so God was asking if Job could keep it together, knowing that he could not), and that Orion stays together (so God was asking Job if he could make it move apart).

Now tell me, how could the guy who wrote that thousands of years ago know that there are two types of constellations, if God hadn't said it?

There are many other proofs in the bible, including locations of things that were found solely using the bible as a guide.


2) Why did Jesus give the church the power to forgive sins?
If I sin and repent, why do I need to have some priest tell me I'm forgiven? If I have repented I will be forgiven at the judgment. The church gathered a lot of power and money through their ability to forgive sins so why would Jesus give them that power if he knew damn well they would become corrupt?

Good question. That is why I am not Catholic. Only Catholic Christians believe that you have to ask forgiveness from a priest. With Protestans, you just have to ask for forgiveness from god.

3) With the hundreds of religions we have, what makes Christianity any more correct than Islam, Hinduism, Buddism, etc?
Since the very beginning of communication the question has been raised, "How did we get here?". In a time of such primitive knowledge of the universe, the only option of explaination was the supernatural. They used God[s] to explain fire, rain, love, human existance, etc. We have for some time been able to explain fire, rain and love(to an extent). Just because the only question left is "How did we get here, which we can't currently answer, why do we still insist on using God to explain it?

This is kind of the same as the first question, but since you asked two questions, I'll give you two different examples.

Thousands of people saw Jesus being beaten and whipped until and almost dead state. Thousands of people saw Jesus being crucified and have a spear shoved through his torso. No-one ever survived crucifiction. Yet, after being dead, Jesus came alive again and was seen by thousands more witnesses.

With Islam, Mohammed didn't rise from the dead or anything like that. He just claimed God (aka Allah) had come to him and told him that he was a prophet etc. No-one else saw any of this, they just believed what he told them.

And one final comment, do you really believe that everything you see around you, and life itself, could come from some "Big Bang"? I just don't have enough faith to believe that.

1. "For from the first making of the world, those things of God which the eye is unable to see, that is, his eternal power and existence, are fully made clear, he having given the knowledge of them through the things which he has made, so that men have no reason for wrongdoing:"
Romans 1:20

2. You do not need a priest to tell you whether you have been forgiven - you need a Bible and a sure heart. "For with the heart man has faith to get righteousness, and with the mouth he says that Jesus is Lord to get salvation." Romans 10:10

3. No other proper religious leader claims that He himself is God - except Jesus. At the same time, no other proper religious leader suffers such a gruelling death with the noble cause of rescuing the world's sins. This shows the personality of God: justice and love at the same time.

Knowledge from the first making of the world is hardley enough considering the fact that there is wrongdoing still.

If that's so why did Jesus give the power to forgive sins in Mathew 16:19?

Just because Jesus claims to be divine, doesn't mean he is God anymore than mohamed is a prophet of Allah.

First off, this is coming from an Agnostic, so take it with a grain of salt. ~grin~

1) If you KNOW that God exists, in the context of any one religion, then it removes the value of faith. After all, if I KNOW that there is a Heaven, and that in order to go there I have to become a Mormon, then I'm becoming a Mormon. Even people who are scum and kick old ladies in the street could easily get in.

Or, to put it another way, you're being asked to commit yourself WITHOUT knowing for sure, because that sort of choice holds more power than being told everything in advance.

It's like me asking, why won't the casino let me put my money on red AFTER they've already spun the Roulette wheel?


2) This is more a question of whether you're Christian or Catholic, though. A Catholic would suggest you must come into your understanding of God through the Church, thus simply going, "Oh, I'm sorry" just before you die doesn't cut it. Protestants tend to believe more in the fact that all you need to do is accept that Jesus died for your sins, and that through acceptance of that fact, and sincere repentance, you go to Heaven.


3) Well, the logic applies to nearly anything, though. What makes Atheism any more correct than the concept of faith? Answer, not much, given a particularly determined set of debators on both sides of the issue. ~smirk~

As for the rest, the problem is that the "answers" we have aren't necessarily the right ones (or even the whole ones). It's the height of human arrogance for us to assume that science has made us aware of the true nature of the universe, when we can point to a good 10,000 years or so of people who thought they knew what was going on, but turned out to be wrong on any number of accounts.

How about this? The universe as we understand it seems to follow a number of distinct rules and patterns. Are they random? The result of natural forces? Or set-up by something greater than we are? Like it or not, we don't have the ability to say for sure at this point in time - and we may NEVER have that ability.


So yes - while MY point-of-view is that humans are tiny little creatures that will never be able to comprehend even a tenth of what's going on in the universe, whether that means there IS a god or there ISN'T really isn't answered. ~smirk~

There are three main questions stopping me from converting to Chritsianity. If you do answer them, don't do it with 'God works in mysterious ways'.

1) Why does God not wish us to have proof of his existance?
What can he possibly get out of us believing in him that he can't get out of us being certain that he exists?

2) Why did Jesus give the church the power to forgive sins?
If I sin and repent, why do I need to have some priest tell me I'm forgiven? If I have repented I will be forgiven at the judgment. The church gathered a lot of power and money through their ability to forgive sins so why would Jesus give them that power if he knew damn well they would become corrupt?

3) With the hundreds of religions we have, what makes Christianity any more correct than Islam, Hinduism, Buddism, etc?
Since the very beginning of communication the question has been raised, "How did we get here?". In a time of such primitive knowledge of the universe, the only option of explaination was the supernatural. They used God[s] to explain fire, rain, love, human existance, etc. We have for some time been able to explain fire, rain and love(to an extent). Just because the only question left is "How did we get here, which we can't currently answer, why do we still insist on using God to explain it?


1. if I asked you to trust me with something and you did, and I had no sinister intentions at all, it would mean a lot more to me than if I had to go through a rigorous process of proving myself first. Besides, there is evidence, you just have to look for it with an open mind, not one that denies it before you've even seen it.

2. He didn't. Simple as that. Common misconception.

3. The evidence mentioned in 1.

But there is no proof of the bible (no real proof of most of the things claimed) so using the bible as proof really does not prove anything

Yes it can help explain why some of the beliefs are they way they are but they dont verify anything

Oh...ok...

Well, for myself, it was believing the love and compassion and the proper way of living BEFORE comprehending the greatness of God's creations - simply because it isn't completely relevant to my own life.

And one final comment, do you really believe that everything you see around you, and life itself, could come from some "Big Bang"? I just don't have enough faith to believe that.

More plausible than a big magic entity going *Poof* and creating everything with his almightiness.

To have devotion to God, you don't need to be unsure of his existance. The angel Lucifer was sure of Gods existance but decided to rebel againts him. You can love God just as much if you can see him than you can if you can't see him.

And yes you're right about the second point but my point was why does God need a representative on earth?
Ah, but it'd be too easy if we knew. If you knew God was there, then you'd have no choice but to believe. You'd have no choice but to listen to His teachings. But if the chance that He doesn't exist appears...The temptation to ignore His teachings appears. So it's really a test of sorts, to overcome the temptation. Sorry if that's a bit convoluted...

Well, God needs representatives because if He doesn't appear on Earth, somebody has to carry out His good work. The Church really takes on the role of Jesus' disciples, in a sense.

Because the Devil ate your soul?

You can't see me now but I'm pissing myself laughing.

I believe Jesus Christ rose from the dead. No one else has done that. Mohammed is dead; as far as I know, no Hindu god had claimed to do anything miraculous of such a magnitude.
Dude!
Ganesha had his head cut off!
Vishnu (was it Vishnu? Terrible with names) had to run around all night looking for a replacement head, and didn't want to kill any babies cuddled up with their mothers, so he ended up taking a baby elephant head, since the elephant was looking away from it's mother.

So...decapitated, resurrected, yet keeps all memories and thoughts, while having a different head. Of a different species, no less!
Yeah, I reckon that puts Jesus to shame when it comes to the resurection stakes.

But...I don't believe that story to be literal. You obviously believe Jesus' resurrection to be literal.

So we end up with the situation where we have two different stories, without proof for either. I don't think it really proves anything.

I could make up a claim even more impressive than any in the bible. I doubt that would make it more believable.

Knowledge from the first making of the world is hardley enough considering the fact that there is wrongdoing still.

If that's so why did Jesus give the power to forgive sins in Mathew 16:19?

Just because Jesus claims to be divine, doesn't mean he is God anymore than mohamed is a prophet of Allah.

Who or what made the world is not the cornerstone of the Christian faith. It really is a minor issue compared with the salvation of Jesus.

Remember that churches are human societies, and humans are always susceptible to sin and mistakes. The Church does provide a representative of authority of God, but by no means a Church is divine and infallable.

Doesn't it wonder you why a god would come down Himself to die for our sins? The Allah didn't come down. Buddha didn't come down - he just rose by dafault. The difference is that God came down to Earth to be killed for our sins. No other religion can surpass, or even come close, to that kind of love.

Ah, but it'd be too easy if we knew. If you knew God was there, then you'd have no choice but to believe. You'd have no choice but to listen to His teachings. But if the chance that He doesn't exist appears...The temptation to ignore His teachings appears. So it's really a test of sorts, to overcome the temptation. Sorry if that's a bit convoluted...

Well, God needs representatives because if He doesn't appear on Earth, somebody has to carry out His good work. The Church really takes on the role of Jesus' disciples, in a sense.

Why does God want to tempt us into unfaithfulness. I still don't see how believing is an important factor here. I would have thought that loving God with all your heart all your mind and all your strength was the important thing, which you don't have to do if you are certain of his existance.

I still don't understand why it's necessary for the church to forgive sins.

The Allah didn't come down.

You do realize that Muslims and Christians believe in the same god, right?

*I said god with a lower case! TAKE THAT, CHRISTIANITY!*

Thousands of people saw Jesus being beaten and whipped until and almost dead state. Thousands of people saw Jesus being crucified and have a spear shoved through his torso. No-one ever survived crucifiction. Yet, after being dead, Jesus came alive again and was seen by thousands more witnesses.
Talked to any of them, have you?
Interesting that there isn't that much historical reference to such an influential person as Jesus, other than the religious stories.

I'm not saying that he didn't exist. I'm just skeptical if what is "obvious" to us now wasn't obvious to them then?

I personally think that we ultimately will never know why we exist, and I really don't care why we exist, I just know that existing is a rather nice sensation and I'm glad I exist. I have no clue why anything exists at all, and I don't want to argue about it. The reason I'm not religious is because it's my personal opinion that it doesn't make any sense to be religious. The whole concept of God seems illogical, so even if I thought I believed in God, I wouldn't really, I'd just think that I did.

Okay, I also have a question. I don't mean to offend in any way, I've just always been curious about this and never had a chance to ask anyone: why do you believe the Bible?

You do realize that Muslims and Christians believe in the same god, right?

*I said god with a lower case! TAKE THAT, CHRISTIANITY!*

But strictly are of different origins. The Christian God and the Muslim Allah are fundamentally different.

Idiots. I HAVE proved my existance. You see, I am God. It is as simple as that. And, having talked to me, you can now be certain I exist. Therefore, you know that God exists. Wasn't that easy? Sheesh, I have to walk you mortals through everything. I assumed evolution would be self policing, maybe mean that I could take a break, but NO! There had to be a few bugs in that program that killed everything. Last time I use a Windows OS when coding the universe...

Who or what made the world is not the cornerstone of the Christian faith. It really is a minor issue compared with the salvation of Jesus.

Remember that churches are human societies, and humans are always susceptible to sin and mistakes. The Church does provide a representative of authority of God, but by no means a Church is divine and infallable.

Doesn't it wonder you why a god would come down Himself to die for our sins? The Allah didn't come down. Buddha didn't come down - he just rose by dafault. The difference is that God came down to Earth to be killed for our sins. No other religion can surpass, or even come close, to that kind of love.

Why does God want a representative that will be corrupted?

I do wonder why God came down and died on the cross to forgive our sins. When we die and it's time for our judgment, why doesn't he just forget the sin. Why would he go through all the trouble of dying as a man?

The sun was formed by a collapsing Nebula. A flower is merely an organism. Science explains both of those things.

But science can never explain why humans think these things are beautiful, fascinating, or whatever your opinion is.

That's my idea. Consciousness as we know it. How music I've never heard before (and therefore has no memory engram or prior connotation) can still dig into my affect and make me cry.

How a vivid sunset, despite that it's created by light filtered through pollution, is, to a human observer, a thing of wonder and beauty. Science has got nothing for those experiences.

First off, this is coming from an Agnostic, so take it with a grain of salt. ~grin~

1) If you KNOW that God exists, in the context of any one religion, then it removes the value of faith. After all, if I KNOW that there is a Heaven, and that in order to go there I have to become a Mormon, then I'm becoming a Mormon. Even people who are scum and kick old ladies in the street could easily get in.



But doesn't God want the scum who kick old ladies in heaven. Love the sinner hate the sin right?

Why does God want a representative that will be corrupted?

I do wonder why God came down and died on the cross to forgive our sins. When we die and it's time for our judgment, why doesn't he just forget the sin. Why would he go through all the trouble of dying as a man?

It is common misconception that everything that belongs to God should be perfect. That is never the case. If something isn't corrupted, something doesn't grow. You have to experience rain to appreciate sunshine, no?

Because it's not just the power of God, it's also the power of Satan we're struggling against. God will not forgive a sin until the sinner has repented. But He is always welcome for repentful sinners.

Why does God want to tempt us into unfaithfulness. I still don't see how believing is an important factor here. I would have thought that loving God with all your heart all your mind and all your strength was the important thing, which you don't have to do if you are certain of his existance.

I still don't understand why it's necessary for the church to forgive sins.
But it'd be too easy! If you KNOW He is real, then you'll believe in Him because you have to. To truly prove your devotion, you must believe! What free will do you have if there is no choice?

The Church is by no means necessary. It helps. It serves to spread the Gospel and organize Christians of the world. So a priest is there to teach you, and to provide a person who you can confess your sins to. It's simply that one regrets sins more if you publicly acknowledge them.

The sun was formed by a collapsing Nebula. A flower is merely an organism. Science explains both of those things.

And where did nebulae and organic life come from? ;) We can trace everything back (we think) to about one billionth of a second after the big bang. No one knows what happened before then.

The problem with science (and all logic) is that it requires some premises to be accepted without proof, that is, on faith. Science is a useful tool, but all it can do is tell us what is likely to be true.

More plausible than a big magic entity going *Poof* and creating everything with his almightiness.

hehe... almightiness. I like that.

So yes - while MY point-of-view is that humans are tiny little creatures that will never be able to comprehend even a tenth of what's going on in the universe, whether that means there IS a god or there ISN'T really isn't answered. ~smirk~[/QUOTE]

You bring up a good point. Since our knowledge of the universe is so limited, how can we ever be sure that there is no God. To be absolutlely sure, we would have to know everything and hence, be god. Through this philosophy, it is impossible to say for sure that God does not exist.

But science can never explain why humans think these things are beautiful, fascinating, or whatever your opinion is.

That's my idea. Consciousness as we know it. How music I've never heard before (and therefore has no memory engram or prior connotation) can still dig into my affect and make me cry.

How a vivid sunset, despite that it's created by light filtered through pollution, is, to a human observer, a thing of wonder and beauty. Science has got nothing for those experiences.

How can you say 'Science can never explain'. It's not like mathematics where we can say that we will never find an exact fraction for root 2. We don't know if we will be able to explain it in the future or not.

I've read the Qur'an from cover to cover, I've read ancient Chinese writings. I've studied Shamanism, Wiccan and modern agnosticism. The great mystery is not what we choose, but what chooses us.

In Summary, Jesus Said: I am the way, the truth and the light (life), No man goes to the father except by me. You cannot love the father except to love me, you cannot love me except also to love the father. If you know me, you know the father, if you know the father, you know me.

When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path.

And where did nebulae and organic life come from? ;) We can trace everything back (we think) to about one billionth of a second after the big bang. No one knows what happened before then.

The problem with science (and all logic) is that it requires some premises to be accepted without proof, that is, on faith. Science is a useful tool, but all it can do is tell us what is likely to be true.
True.
The difference is science tells us what is likely to be true. And can be revised when someone comes up with more evidence.

Religion makes sweeping statements like "Jesus rose from the dead".
If I say "um, how long was Jesus dead? Wouldn't he have brain damage. Also, humans can't return from the dead, what sort of biological process would be necessary" people will say "Pshaw! It was the power of god. That's what makes it a miracle".
It doesn't accept any refining.

So while both are useful tooks, that can only tell us what is likely to be true, science accepts the fact that it can be revised so that, in future, it can change to be more likely to be true than it currently is.
Religion doesn't allow that.

But it'd be too easy! If you KNOW He is real, then you'll believe in Him because you have to. To truly prove your devotion, you must believe! What free will do you have if there is no choice?

The Church is by no means necessary. It helps. It serves to spread the Gospel and organize Christians of the world. So a priest is there to teach you, and to provide a person who you can confess your sins to. It's simply that one regrets sins more if you publicly acknowledge them.

It doesn't matter if we believe in him or if we know for sure he exists. The entire reason God gave us free will was to love him freely. Just because we know he exists doesn't mean we have to love him. "Love thy neighbour" is commanded. Just because I know my neighbour exists doesn't mean I love him. I could hate someone enough to kill them, even though I know they exist.

There are three main questions stopping me from converting to Chritsianity. If you do answer them, don't do it with 'God works in mysterious ways'.

1) Why does God not wish us to have proof of his existance?

2) Why did Jesus give the church the power to forgive sins?

3) With the hundreds of religions we have, what makes Christianity any more correct than Islam, Hinduism, Buddism, etc?


!) First of all, how do you want Him to prove His existence? God isn't something you can put in a test tube... What do you expect Him to do? Show up in Times Square on New Years Eve, and tell everyone they should be home praying instead of partying? That's pretty much what it would take to get the message across.
Besides, it didn't work in the past if you believe the account of the Old Testament. Even though He visibly aided and made his presence known to the Israelites, they still kept going astray, and they were a very religious people. I don't imagine it would work much better in our liberal society. Human nature inherently challenges authority, which is easier with a visible figure. Also, there's the issue of free will... Christianity is based around faith and acceptance of Christ's sacrifice, it's not something you can force people to do. Truthfully, I really don't know if God's visible presence would much change the number of people who faithfully follow Him. It has more to do with a person's heart than whether they can physically see God.
Also, I have heard accounts of modern day miracles... but any press they would get would quickly be dismissed by skeptics. It would have to be something on the level of the aforementioned Times Square example before anyone even gave it any thought.

2) He didn't, only God can forgive sins.
In the Catholic Church priests act as an intermediary between you and God. In Protestantism, it's resolved through a personal relationship with God, through prayer.
If someone told you that Catholic priests can forgive sins, they're either misinformed themselves, or deceiving you.

3) I can't prove to you the validity of Christianity over other religions, it's not something you can apply the Scientific Method to. It's a matter of faith.


A passage from Romans 3 which pretty much sums up the gospel.
21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Wow a lot of replies popped up in the time it took me to write that.

1. if I asked you to trust me with something and you did, and I had no sinister intentions at all, it would mean a lot more to me than if I had to go through a rigorous process of proving myself first. Besides, there is evidence, you just have to look for it with an open mind, not one that denies it before you've even seen it.

2. He didn't. Simple as that. Common misconception.

3. The evidence mentioned in 1.

I've already posted Matthew 16:19
There's also John 20:23
Jesus says to the apostles:
"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

I've already posted Matthew 16:19
There's also John 20:23
Jesus says to the apostles:
"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

A point I would like raise: Peter never ever claimed himself as the first head of the Church nor did he ever claim he was the Pope. Instead, he stopped people from worshipping him, claiming that he was a mortal, not a saint. Some thing I never understand about Catholicism.

Its best not to worry about whether is or isn't a god. God never really crosses my mind in day to day life. Just live your life and make it a good one.

The only thing i can say about god is: If there is a god, then its is unlikely to be the Christian, Muslim..or whatever gods

!) First of all, how do you want Him to prove His existence? God isn't something you can put in a test tube... What do you expect Him to do? Show up in Times Square on New Years Eve, and tell everyone they should be home praying instead of partying? That's pretty much what it would take to get the message across.
Besides, it didn't work in the past if you believe the account of the Old Testament. Even though He visibly aided and made his presence known to the Israelites, they still kept going astray, and they were a very religious people. I don't imagine it would work much better in our liberal society. Human nature inherently challenges authority, which is easier with a visible figure. Also, there's the issue of free will... Christianity is based around faith and acceptance of Christ's sacrifice, it's not something you can force people to do. Truthfully, I really don't know if God's visible presence would much change the number of people who faithfully follow Him. It has more to do with a person's heart than whether they can physically see God.
Also, I have heard accounts of modern day miracles... but any press they would get would quickly be dismissed by skeptics. It would have to be something on the level of the aforementioned Times Square example before anyone even gave it any thought.


2) He didn't, only God can forgive sins.
In the Catholic Church priests act as an intermediary between you and God. In Protestantism, it's resolved through a personal relationship with God, through prayer.
If someone told you that Catholic priests can forgive sins, they're either misinformed themselves, or deceiving you.


I know that people naturally challenge authority which is why if God were to reveal himself everybody's free will would be in tact. He did aid the israelite and they did lose faith. But not faith in his existence, faith in his infinite wisdom.

I've already posted passages showing how Jesus gavethe church the authority to forgive sins. Also read the catechism of the church for more information.

Enough with all your bullshit please. I am Wiccan! All of you Christians need to remember that Wicca was the first religion, now I am not saying that makes it right though. If you look at every religion in the world there is always going to be some similarity between them. Look at Wicca and Christanity. Everything in Christianity was taken from a Wiccan moral, well almost everything. The whole thing with Christ is funny really...because in Wiccan (which came first) our god died and was reborn to make spring. Hello! Same damn thing! So do not say that no other religion has had a god die, because they have. Why do you people believe the bible anyways? Everyone knows that some stupid crack pot idiot wrote it because he did not like Wicca. He took everything that he liked in Wicca and made a new religion, he left out what he did not like and there you go...a new religion is born. Isn't that just amazing people?

A point I would like raise: Peter never ever claimed himself as the first head of the Church nor did he ever claim he was the Pope. Instead, he stopped people from worshipping him, claiming that he was a mortal, not a saint. Some thing I never understand about Catholicism.

Well really Jesus is the head of the church but Jesus told Peter to build it, Peter was jesus' first representative which is what the pope is, even though he never claimed to be Pope. Something I never quite understood either.

Enough with all your bullshit please. I am Wiccan! All of you Christians need to remember that Wicca was the first religion, now I am not saying that makes it right though. If you look at every religion in the world there is always going to be some similarity between them. Look at Wicca and Christanity. Everything in Christianity was taken from a Wiccan moral, well almost everything. The whole thing with Christ is funny really...because in Wiccan (which came first) our god died and was reborn to make spring. Hello! Same damn thing! So do not say that no other religion has had a god die, because they have. Why do you people believe the bible anyways? Everyone knows that some stupid crack pot idiot wrote it because he did not like Wicca. He took everything that he liked in Wicca and made a new religion, he left out what he did not like and there you go...a new religion is born. Isn't that just amazing people?

Excuse my ignorance, but what's Wicca?

Enough with all your bullshit please. I am Wiccan! All of you Christians need to remember that Wicca was the first religion, now I am not saying that makes it right though. If you look at every religion in the world there is always going to be some similarity between them. Look at Wicca and Christanity. Everything in Christianity was taken from a Wiccan moral, well almost everything. The whole thing with Christ is funny really...because in Wiccan (which came first) our god died and was reborn to make spring. Hello! Same damn thing! So do not say that no other religion has had a god die, because they have. Why do you people believe the bible anyways? Everyone knows that some stupid crack pot idiot wrote it because he did not like Wicca. He took everything that he liked in Wicca and made a new religion, he left out what he did not like and there you go...a new religion is born. Isn't that just amazing people?
You are a moron. Wicca was NOT the first religion. In fact, it is a rather modern compilation of ancient pagan beliefs, but that aside, the Sumerian religions, the Indus valley Harrapan society (and the Hindu religion that formed from it), and the Egyption beliefs, not counting the numerous variation on beliefs of the Native Americans, all predate most Western religions. In fact, Judaism seems to stem more from Zoroastrianism than the precursors to Wicca.

Well really Jesus is the head of the church but Jesus told Peter to build it, Peter was jesus' first representative which is what the pope is, even though he never claimed to be Pope. Something I never quite understood either.

Peter was head of the Church ONLY and ONLY because he had the extension of power from God. The Church does not wield any power - it only uses whatever power God delegates the Chruch to forgive. So strictly speaking, the Church's ability to forgive is God's ability to forgive. A church cannot forgive anybody's sins, therefore your original question is answered, no?

The reason religion popped up in the first place is that we were (as a species) ignorant and, therefore, superstitious. And over the years, as science, medicine, technology, etc. become more and more advanced, the Church and its theories are being disproved. It started with the discovery that the earth revolved around the Sun. The Church had always said that earth was the center of the universe (because of course "God" loves us so much) when in reality, our planet, solar system, and galaxy are tiny and insignificant compared to the rest of outer space. The discovery of dinosaur fossils has also disproved the Church's estimate of how old the Earth really is (and I believe it was said by some Religious "Zealots" that the fossils were put there to "test our faith").

Also, the main reason religion was created (the origin of life), could entirely be disproved when and if science is able to prove Darwin's Theory (which is much more plausible than Adam and Eve). And even now, I find that more and more people of intelligence choose Darwin's Theory over (or integrate it into if they are really that big a christian) the theory of Adam and Eve.

Another thing religion is currently used as is a crutch for people who are afraid of things like death and by people who are weak (mentally, emotionally, etc.). people feel that, no matter what happens, God is looking out for them and everything is going to "be alright". personally, when I die, i hope there is no afterlife of any sort, because 80 or so years of being conscious will be tiresome, and I would have seen everything of interest.

I suggest reading the book by Bertrand Russell Why I'm not a Christian (whichever side of the argument you are on). I find he provides good argument and he is extremely funny (but that is a personal opinion)

So strictly speaking, the Church's ability to forgive is God's ability to forgive.

Exactly, my question is why is this so?

Exactly, my question is why is this so?

I would like to answer that, but I fear I do not understand God's will enough to give you a completely accurate answer. But it should lay along the lines that since God's ministry is with humans, it would be justifyable if His words are also spread by humans. The Church should provide a role model for non-Christians to be attracted by it. A forigiving role given by God to the Church compliments this greater role of the Church.

Let move things along bing bang didn't happen eh? Things just don't create themselves, OK fair enough who created God? Quick get me bablefish god's going to vanish in a puff of logic. :)

1. Well, that's the whole point, now isn't it? To prove one's devotion to God, one must believe in Him. It'd be too easy to simply know; you must want to believe.
2. You've got it mixed up. Priests are not the ones who forgive sin; they are conduits to Jesus. It's based on the fact that Jesus appointed Peter to be his representative on earth (1st Pope) and thus Peter, and his church, became representatives of Jesus on earth.
3. It's mainly a matter of choosing and gut feeling. However, of all the religions in existance, Christianity has the most documented evidence. (lots o' historical records from the era, plus many of the events/areas referenced in the Bible have been confirmed through archeology, the Shroud of Turin and other miracles, etc.) Sure, it's not rock hard evidence, but it's more than other religions.

Actualy, Chrsitianity is pretty much Judaism plus Jesus as a divine savior. Dont give me insignificant little details that I missed, you get my point.

the one thing i never got about christianity is that "jesus died for our sins". wouldn't that mean that we could do whatever we want because jesus had already suffered for our sins? and then there's the even bigger question; if there is such a thing as a sin, then why does god allow it? i've given up trying to follow any semblance of a religion and now i just follow my beleifs and if i get sent to hell or purgatory or whatever the hell else for following my beleifs then so be it.

Another thing religion is currently used as is a crutch for people who are afraid of things like death and by people who are weak (mentally, emotionally, etc.). people feel that, no matter what happens, God is looking out for them and everything is going to "be alright".

First, I believe many people including Christians do indeed use their religion as a crutch in life. This does not mean that what they believe is false however.
While religious people have things to gain by being religious, I think some people are atheist or agnostic for the same reason. They do not want to answer to someone bigger than themselves or be told what they can or cannot do. Maybe they feel guilty and not believing in god is their crutch to help them feel better. Just wanted to show it can go both ways.

a good place to find the answers to thsoe questions might to be to get off your ass and read some literature

id reccomend St. Augustine's works and heres an old essay about the existance of god taken in a logical way fromt he summa theologica:
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/100203.htm

Actualy, Chrsitianity is pretty much Judaism plus Jesus as a divine savior. Dont give me insignificant little details that I missed, you get my point.
Yes. It is. Your point being...?

Another thing religion is currently used as is a crutch for people who are afraid of things like death and by people who are weak (mentally, emotionally, etc.). people feel that, no matter what happens, God is looking out for them and everything is going to "be alright".

First, I believe many people including Christians do indeed use their religion as a crutch in life. This does not mean that what they believe is false however.
While religious people have things to gain by being religious, I think some people are atheist or agnostic for the same reason. They do not want to answer to someone bigger than themselves or be told what they can or cannot do. Maybe they feel guilty and not believing in god is their crutch to help them feel better. Just wanted to show it can go both ways.

A crutch in life if we all have broken legs doesn't sound like a bad idea does it? An alternative explanation to your analogy is that if we are all limping around, Christianity provides that crutch for us to move on.

the one thing i never got about christianity is that "jesus died for our sins". wouldn't that mean that we could do whatever we want because jesus had already suffered for our sins? and then there's the even bigger question; if there is such a thing as a sin, then why does god allow it? i've given up trying to follow any semblance of a religion and now i just follow my beleifs and if i get sent to hell or purgatory or whatever the hell else for following my beleifs then so be it.

I would read the book of Romans for the Bible's answer on that. It asks the question in chapter 6:1..."What shall we say then? Shall we continue in our sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?" That's just a small part. It gives a broader picture throughout Romans.

the one thing i never got about christianity is that "jesus died for our sins". wouldn't that mean that we could do whatever we want because jesus had already suffered for our sins? and then there's the even bigger question; if there is such a thing as a sin, then why does god allow it? i've given up trying to follow any semblance of a religion and now i just follow my beleifs and if i get sent to hell or purgatory or whatever the hell else for following my beleifs then so be it.

Nope. The gift being prepared does not mean that you are accepting the gift by dafult. You can refuse the gift by refusing to repent and continue your old ways. God does not allow sin - He only allows the temporary existence of it.

tell you why i'm an atheist. because i just never understood the extremities of the god i was introduced to by my friends growing up. my parents basically just told me that god wanted everyone to be nice to each other and, that if you were good and nice, you would go to heaven.
but, according to the bible, men in the past that killed thousands of muslims in Gods name during the Crusades, deserve to go to heaven more than me. wtf! i havn't killed anyone!

tell you why i'm an atheist. because i just never understood the extremities of the god i was introduced to by my friends growing up. my parents basically just told me that god wanted everyone to be nice to each other and, that if you were good and nice, you would go to heaven.
but, according to the bible, men in the past that killed thousands of muslims in Gods name during the Crusades, deserve to go to heaven more than me. wtf! i havn't killed anyone!

The Bible had been written centuries before the Crusades!! How could the Bible have agreed to the Crusades??

The Bible had been written centuries before the Crusades!! How could the Bible have agreed to the Crusades??
Because he applies principles in the bible to analyze how its framers would react to an event after its writing.

I would like to answer that, but I fear I do not understand God's will enough to give you a completely accurate answer. But it should lay along the lines that since God's ministry is with humans, it would be justifyable if His words are also spread by humans. The Church should provide a role model for non-Christians to be attracted by it. A forigiving role given by God to the Church compliments this greater role of the Church.

Fair 'nuff. That's question 2 put to rest.

Yes. It is. Your point being...?

Judaism has as much if not more evidence behind it than Christianity, as about half the evidence for Chritianity is supplied by Judaism in the first place. So Judaism actually has the most evidence.

There are three main questions stopping me from converting to Chritsianity. If you do answer them, don't do it with 'God works in mysterious ways'.

1) Why does God not wish us to have proof of his existance?
What can he possibly get out of us believing in him that he can't get out of us being certain that he exists?

2) Why did Jesus give the church the power to forgive sins?
If I sin and repent, why do I need to have some priest tell me I'm forgiven? If I have repented I will be forgiven at the judgment. The church gathered a lot of power and money through their ability to forgive sins so why would Jesus give them that power if he knew damn well they would become corrupt?

3) With the hundreds of religions we have, what makes Christianity any more correct than Islam, Hinduism, Buddism, etc?
Since the very beginning of communication the question has been raised, "How did we get here?". In a time of such primitive knowledge of the universe, the only option of explaination was the supernatural. They used God[s] to explain fire, rain, love, human existance, etc. We have for some time been able to explain fire, rain and love(to an extent). Just because the only question left is "How did we get here, which we can't currently answer, why do we still insist on using God to explain it?

I'm sorry, but I can't answer the first question. But I can answer the other two.

2) It is not the priests who forgive you of your sins, but simply Jesus and yourself. God did not give the Church power to redeem for money...well, being Protestant, there's a lot of power the Catholic Church proportedly has that I tend to find disagreeable. But it's all still Christian, and as long as Jesus is in your heart it doesn't matter whether your Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox.

3) Well, for one Christianity is the only one in which you can actually know if you are assured salvation or not (ignoring doubts as to the religion itself. I'm referring to within the religion, for those that already believe). In most religions, it is a matter of doing good deeds...but a certain number of good deeds. How do you know when you've done enough good deeds, and not too many bad deeds, that you'll reach the afterlife, or improve your standing in reincarnation? Well, with Christianity it is merely a matter of asking Jesus into your heart, and the rest is assured. You now have assurance that you will make it into heaven (assuming it exists). No other religion has that assuredness...it's all hoping that you've done enough.

I hope I could answer clearly and sufficiently. You'll have to excuse me for not replying to any rebuttals, since I don't frequent these forums much. But hopefully others can answer any rebuttals made.

Because he applies principles in the bible to analyze how its framers would react to an event after its writing.

Who applies Biblical princples?

Fair 'nuff. That's question 2 put to rest.

*takes a bow* :)

The reason religion popped up in the first place is that we were (as a species) ignorant and, therefore, superstitious. And over the years, as science, medicine, technology, etc. become more and more advanced, the Church and its theories are being disproved. It started with the discovery that the earth revolved around the Sun. The Church had always said that earth was the center of the universe (because of course "God" loves us so much) when in reality, our planet, solar system, and galaxy are tiny and insignificant compared to the rest of outer space.


Actually, it was Christians who discovered the truth of how the solar system worked, hardly the triumph of science over the silly superstitious. In fact, probably a majority of major scientific discoveries prior to the 20th century were by Christians. You see.. nothing that has actually been proven by science in any way contradicts the Bible. Unless of course you purposefully misinterpret Hebrew poetic passages as literal explanations.


The discovery of dinosaur fossils has also disproved the Church's estimate of how old the Earth really is (and I believe it was said by some Religious "Zealots" that the fossils were put there to "test our faith").


That's laughable, as those tests have been shown to be inaccurate, and not even consistent in their inaccuracy.


Also, the main reason religion was created (the origin of life), could entirely be disproved when and if science is able to prove Darwin's Theory (which is much more plausible than Adam and Eve). And even now, I find that more and more people of intelligence choose Darwin's Theory over (or integrate it into if they are really that big a christian) the theory of Adam and Eve.


I'm well aware this is an over-simplification, but really... the fact that people believe that nothingness exploded... resulting in all of the mass of the universe expanding outward from one point at unfathomable speeds, and coalescing into the incredibly structured universe you see today... and believe it more credible than intelligent design?
Everywhere you look, everything is complex, structured. The simplest single-celled organism contains encyclopedic information in its DNA.
Now... lets look at what would have to occur for evolution to begin..
The simplest organism capable of sustaining life and reproducing still has hundreds of thousands of base-pairs of four specific chemicals in its DNA. These chemicals would have to arrange themselves in exact order, in a double helix, inside the nucleus of a simultaneously developing cell containing 1) RNA exactly formed to be able to read the independantly formed DNA, 2) all the necessary components for the function of the cell: membrane, cytoplasm, organelles, etc. I really thought we stopped believing in spontaneous generation centuries ago. Now assuming this miracle cell, for some reason, does not die nearly immediately due to the lack of any way to obtain energy... it begins to reproduce... and somehow is able to generate new genetic information?
The inherent problem in evolution is that mutations do not generate new genetic information, they merely alter what already exists. A single celled organism can not evolve into a multi-celled organism, because it has no genetic information for such, no matter how much what it has changes.
Not to mention the lack of any substantiating evidence for evolution (read: intermediate forms). If evolution actually occurred, the earth would be littered with them. The fossil buildup of billions of years in which millions upon millions of species developed and died out? You wouldn't be able to step outside your back door without stepping over an intermediary fossil if it were true.

Because he applies principles in the bible to analyze how its framers would react to an event after its writing.

And did a rather poor job.

Edit: Maybe I should write my posts in smaller increments, I'm missing a lot of the discussion with these massive posts. ;)

Actually, it was Christians who discovered the truth of how the solar system worked, hardly the triumph of science over the silly superstitious. In fact, probably a majority of major scientific discoveries prior to the 20th century were by Christians. You see.. nothing that has actually been proven by science in any way contradicts the Bible. Unless of course you purposefully misinterpret Hebrew poetic passages as literal explanations.



That's laughable, as those tests have been shown to be inaccurate, and not even consistent in their inaccuracy.



I'm well aware this is an over-simplification, but really... the fact that people believe that nothingness exploded... resulting in all of the mass of the universe expanding outward from one point at unfathomable speeds, and coalescing into the incredibly structured universe you see today... and believe it more credible than intelligent design?
Everywhere you look, everything is complex, structured. The simplest single-celled organism contains encyclopedic information in its DNA.
Now... lets look at what would have to occur for evolution to begin..
The simplest organism capable of sustaining life and reproducing still has hundreds of thousands of base-pairs of four specific chemicals in its DNA. These chemicals would have to arrange themselves in exact order, in a double helix, inside the nucleus of a simultaneously developing cell containing 1) RNA exactly formed to be able to read the independantly formed DNA, 2) all the necessary components for the function of the cell: membrane, cytoplasm, organelles, etc. I really thought we stopped believing in spontaneous generation centuries ago. Now assuming this miracle cell, for some reason, does not die nearly immediately due to the lack of any way to obtain energy... it begins to reproduce... and somehow is able to generate new genetic information?
The inherent problem in evolution is that mutations do not generate new genetic information, they merely alter what already exists. A single celled organism can not evolve into a multi-celled organism, because it has no genetic information for such, no matter how much what it has changes.
Not to mention the lack of any substantiating evidence for evolution (read: intermediate forms). If evolution actually occurred, the earth would be littered with them. The fossil buildup of billions of years in which millions upon millions of species developed and died out? You wouldn't be able to step outside your back door without stepping over an intermediary fossil if it were true.

*applauds*!

The Bible had been written centuries before the Crusades!! How could the Bible have agreed to the Crusades??

:rolleyes: sorry. what i meant is that according to the bible those who accept jesus as their lord and savior go to heaven. my guess is that just about everyone who took part in the crusades (aside from the muslims, jews, etc.) accepted jesus and went and fought in his name. they died and went to heaven even though they killed people needlesly. i'm an atheist so therefore, even if i save the world from utter destruction, i still go to hell. not fair and completely retarded.

my parents basically just told me that god wanted everyone to be nice to each other and, that if you were good and nice, you would go to heaven.
but, according to the bible, men in the past that killed thousands of muslims in Gods name during the Crusades, deserve to go to heaven more than me. wtf! i havn't killed anyone!


Your parents where closer to the truth.

Many people have said and done horrible things and jusified it as being God's work, his will or in the name of.

Most of these people were covering their arses before being executed or judged by their peers.

It is my belief that God does not care much for the manner in which he is worshipped but more cares about the way we live our lives.

Religious conflict is a cop out for agressors to take land and for terrorists to justify why they want to control our lives.

People of God are not agressors but they will defend themselves.

EDIT: This is deep for me and it's only Monday.

3) Well, for one Christianity is the only one in which you can actually know if you are assured salvation or not (ignoring doubts as to the religion itself. I'm referring to within the religion, for those that already believe). In most religions, it is a matter of doing good deeds...but a certain number of good deeds. How do you know when you've done enough good deeds, and not too many bad deeds, that you'll reach the afterlife, or improve your standing in reincarnation? Well, with Christianity it is merely a matter of asking Jesus into your heart, and the rest is assured. You now have assurance that you will make it into heaven (assuming it exists). No other religion has that assuredness...it's all hoping that you've done enough.
Its easy to understand, therefore right. Gotcha, makes perfect sense :rolleyes:

:rolleyes: sorry. what i meant is that according to the bible those who accept jesus as their lord and savior go to heaven. my guess is that just about everyone who took part in the crusades (aside from the muslims, jews, etc.) accepted jesus and went and fought in his name. they died and went to heaven even though they killed people needlesly. i'm an atheist so therefore, even if i save the world from utter destruction, i still go to hell. not fair and completely retarded.

Actually, historical evidence points to the Crusades being ignited by commercial and political greed more than religious zeal. Even if some of the participants were inspired by religion, it is simply wrong to kill.

3) Well, for one Christianity is the only one in which you can actually know if you are assured salvation or not (ignoring doubts as to the religion itself. I'm referring to within the religion, for those that already believe). In most religions, it is a matter of doing good deeds...but a certain number of good deeds. How do you know when you've done enough good deeds, and not too many bad deeds, that you'll reach the afterlife, or improve your standing in reincarnation? Well, with Christianity it is merely a matter of asking Jesus into your heart, and the rest is assured. You now have assurance that you will make it into heaven (assuming it exists). No other religion has that assuredness...it's all hoping that you've done enough.

see I John 5:12-13 "know that you have eternal life"

Actually, historical evidence points to the Crusades being ignited by commercial and political greed more than religious zeal. Even if some of the participants were inspired by religion, it is simply wrong to kill.

Agreed.

However there are times when people must stand-up against an agressor.

Precisely correct, all too often I see people pointing to atrocities such as the Crusades, and the Inquisition and ask how we can justify it.
Simply put, we can't. Such acts are not based on the teachings of Christ. They drug the name of Christ through the mud to suit the agenda of whoever was running the country or Church.

This is how you identify true Christian endeavours.

Galations 5:16-25
16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

Agreed.

However there are times when people must stand-up against an agressor.

Those times are debatable, of course. But no doubt the salvation of one life triumphs over the loss of one.

You do realize that Muslims and Christians believe in the same god, right?

*I said god with a lower case! TAKE THAT, CHRISTIANITY!*

Not really.

They're a split-off-you could ALMOST call them the thirteenth tribe.

If they weren't, y'know, mostly such bigots.

You can talk about how they're 'the same' all you want but when it comes down right to it, no.

We believe in a God who would come down to the Earth and die for our sins.

They don't.

Talked to any of them, have you?
Interesting that there isn't that much historical reference to such an influential person as Jesus, other than the religious stories.

I'm not saying that he didn't exist. I'm just skeptical if what is "obvious" to us now wasn't obvious to them then?

I was tempted to say "Shut your dirty ignorant mouth and learn some facts," but that's not Christian of me.

So I'll say please, go learn some facts.

There ARE historical references to Jesus.

For an unbiased look at religions with excellent sources, try www.religioustolerance.com

Mostly unbiased, that is.

Cristanity, Catholism, Scientology blah blah blah. At the moment I'm on the verge of converting from Atheism to Satanism and you wanna know why:

The 11 rules of Earth (http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/Eleven.html)
The 9 Satanic Statements (http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/NineStatements.html)
The 9 Satanic sins (http://churchofsatan.com/Pages/Sins.html)

I PITY YOU ALL!!!

Actually, it was Christians who discovered the truth of how the solar system worked, hardly the triumph of science over the silly superstitious. In fact, probably a majority of major scientific discoveries prior to the 20th century were by Christians. You see.. nothing that has actually been proven by science in any way contradicts the Bible. Unless of course you purposefully misinterpret Hebrew poetic passages as literal explanations.


That's right. In fact it was a catholic priest who origionally came up with Big Bang theory (which is now the accepted position of the Catholic church i'm told).

That's right. In fact it was a catholic priest who origionally came up with Big Bang theory (which is now the accepted position of the Catholic church i'm told).



Concerning cosmological evolution, the Church has infallibly defined that the universe was specially created out of nothing. Vatican I solemnly defined that everyone must "confess the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, as regards their whole substance, have been produced by God from nothing" (Canons on God the Creator of All Things, canon 5).

http://www.catholic.com/library/Adam_Eve_and_Evolution.asp

The Church is as ambiguous as she can be. She's far more congregational than she'd like to admit.

There are three main questions stopping me from converting to Chritsianity. If you do answer them, don't do it with 'God works in mysterious ways'.

1) Why does God not wish us to have proof of his existance?
What can he possibly get out of us believing in him that he can't get out of us being certain that he exists?

2) Why did Jesus give the church the power to forgive sins?
If I sin and repent, why do I need to have some priest tell me I'm forgiven? If I have repented I will be forgiven at the judgment. The church gathered a lot of power and money through their ability to forgive sins so why would Jesus give them that power if he knew damn well they would become corrupt?

3) With the hundreds of religions we have, what makes Christianity any more correct than Islam, Hinduism, Buddism, etc?
Since the very beginning of communication the question has been raised, "How did we get here?". In a time of such primitive knowledge of the universe, the only option of explaination was the supernatural. They used God[s] to explain fire, rain, love, human existance, etc. We have for some time been able to explain fire, rain and love(to an extent). Just because the only question left is "How did we get here, which we can't currently answer, why do we still insist on using God to explain it?


1. If there is a "God", it is not a strictly sentient or tangible being which could simply show up and have a conversation. God in the traditional monotheistic religious sense of a judgmental being with human mores and values which makes decisions on eternal reward or suffering based on the choice of whether to grovel as His feet and live the lifestyle he has vicariously demanded of us is an easily visible, incredibly transparent, manmade hoax for men to control and explit other men based on the fabrications of superstitious and relatively primitive peoples who, by no small coincidence, already believed in prophesies, omens, and originally existed as a small group in (western religions) seas of coincidentally similar mystery cults with coincidentally similar messianic figures, all originating from what continues to be the most fanatically religious area in the world. The best argument is "look around, his work is everywhere!", but this is insufficient to an objective empiricist who makes judgments based on fact and logic rather than the majority who allow their views to be decided for them, and seduced into the easy comfort of communal belonging and group thought. Religion is the opiate of the masses, the crutch and primitive fable, the ridiculous notion which, like the rumor it started as, spread, gathered all-too-easily acquired followers who by no small coincidence already felt the need to embrace a believe, any belief, until it began to actually be taken seriously, to the point of 1984-like omnipresence. Adults need fairy tales to believe in, too; all you need is "faith" in the word of dead zealots with tales of the Red Sea parting, men walking on water, the horsemen of the Apocalypse (Ragnarok to most people is ridiculous, but Revelation, its clone, is spot on!), and all the various re-interpretations of the original horse sh!t.

2. He didn't, even he wasn't that megalomaniacal. The Prelude to the Canterbury Tales says it all. Martin Luther could answer that question for you. Saving souls is a profitable business, and, being that religions are slavery institutions of the mind, why not profitably exploit the masses in addition to stunting their advancement by pretending they not only have the answers to all of existence, but have in themselves the power of God in the form of magistrative judgmental ability? Money, influence, power, who could resist?

3. Who needs reason when you have faith? The basis of that question is similar to asking a Green Bay Packers fan, "Why is your team better than the Vikings?". Christians are the chosen people, just like Jews are the chosen people, just like Muslims are the chosen people, and so forth. Nobody's going to adhere to a religion with the idea that, "Well, we're no Hinduism, but we're coming along!". The same arrogance that says we can simply take a wild guess and, on the first try, adequately explain all of existence because a bearded man told us the other day, predetermines that whichever religion we follow will be the best. Is it any wonder how hard it was for the Church to finally admit that perhaps Ptolemaic Geocentric theory was absurd?

Did I mention I'm Protestant and disagree strongly with some Catholic teachings?
And the idea of them accepting the Big Bang theory as truth makes me give up hope altogether. *sigh*

Cristanity, Catholism, Scientology blah blah blah. At the moment I'm on the verge of converting from Atheism to Satanism and you wanna know why:

The 11 rules of Earth (http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/Eleven.html)
The 9 Satanic Statements (http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/NineStatements.html)
The 9 Satanic sins (http://churchofsatan.com/Pages/Sins.html)

I PITY YOU ALL!!!

For the Eleven Rules, you've already broken 1, and for the nine sins you've already broken all nine.

Especially 1. And 2. And 3. And 4. And 5. And 6. And 7. And 8. And 9.

Change the debate slightly here. I was a Christian until 19 then for the next 8 years I was a die hard Atheist. Last month I have started to believe in God again although I am not sure what religion I am. The reason why I have returned to God again has nothing to do with doctrine or the bible or anything.

Simply I was happier when I believed in God. I do not worry as much and I am more sure of myself. When I was an Atheist and I had problems I worried a lot. Now, when I have problems I do not feel worried any more because I feel God is overlooking me.

Even if there was no God and I am deluding myself, then I am happy to trade truth for an easier life. But as it stands I do not believe there is enough evidence for either so I have decided to pick the better life.

1. If there is a "God", it is not a strictly sentient or tangible being which could simply show up and have a conversation. God in the traditional monotheistic religious sense of a judgmental being with human mores and values which makes decisions on eternal reward or suffering based on the choice of whether to grovel as His feet and live the lifestyle he has vicariously demanded of us is an easily visible, incredibly transparent, manmade hoax for men to control and explit other men based on the fabrications of superstitious and relatively primitive peoples who, by no small coincidence, already believed in prophesies, omens, and originally existed as a small group in (western religions) seas of coincidentally similar mystery cults with coincidentally similar messianic figures, all originating from what continues to be the most fanatically religious area in the world. The best argument is "look around, his work is everywhere!", but this is insufficient to an objective empiricist who makes judgments based on fact and logic rather than the majority who allow their views to be decided for them, and seduced into the easy comfort of communal belonging and group thought. Religion is the opiate of the masses, the crutch and primitive fable, the ridiculous notion which, like the rumor it started as, spread, gathered all-too-easily acquired followers who by no small coincidence already felt the need to embrace a believe, any belief, until it began to actually be taken seriously, to the point of 1984-like omnipresence. Adults need fairy tales to believe in, too; all you need is "faith" in the word of dead zealots with tales of the Red Sea parting, men walking on water, the horsemen of the Apocalypse (Ragnarok to most people is ridiculous, but Revelation, its clone, is spot on!), and all the various re-interpretations of the original horse sh!t.

2. He didn't, even he wasn't that megalomaniacal. The Prelude to the Canterbury Tales says it all. Martin Luther could answer that question for you. Saving souls is a profitable business, and, being that religions are slavery institutions of the mind, why not profitably exploit the masses in addition to stunting their advancement by pretending they not only have the answers to all of existence, but have in themselves the power of God in the form of magistrative judgmental ability? Money, influence, power, who could resist?

3. Who needs reason when you have faith? The basis of that question is similar to asking a Green Bay Packers fan, "Why is your team better than the Vikings?". Christians are the chosen people, just like Jews are the chosen people, just like Muslims are the chosen people, and so forth. Nobody's going to adhere to a religion with the idea that, "Well, we're no Hinduism, but we're coming along!". The same arrogance that says we can simply take a wild guess and, on the first try, adequately explain all of existence because a bearded man told us the other day, predetermines that whichever religion we follow will be the best. Is it any wonder how hard it was for the Church to finally admit that perhaps Ptolemaic Geocentric theory was absurd?

Anyone else want to respond? I'm afraid posts like this merely make me want to expound on why the writer is a waste of organic material.... so I'm just going to be quiet.

Anyone else want to respond? I'm afraid posts like this merely make me want to expound on why the writer is a waste of organic material.... so I'm just going to be quiet.

It's too long and diverting me from studying.

Change the debate slightly here. I was a Christian until 19 then for the next 8 years I was a die hard Atheist. Last month I have started to believe in God again although I am not sure what religion I am. The reason why I have returned to God again has nothing to do with doctrine or the bible or anything.

Simply I was happier when I believed in God. I do not worry as much and I am more sure of myself. When I was an Atheist and I had problems I worried a lot. Now, when I have problems I do not feel worried any more because I feel God is overlooking me.

Even if there was no God and I am deluding myself, then I am happy to trade truth for an easier life. But as it stands I do not believe there is enough evidence for either so I have decided to pick the better life.

That's really very sad. That's the reason I don't like protestant bible bashers. Instead of trying to convince you that you're wrong and should repent, they propose that you convert for your own happiness. I don't think that's right.

By the way, the creator of the post made a better case for Agnosticism or even the overlooked school of Skepticism, rather than Atheism. Citing no specific proof of God is no evidence that there cannot be a God, in the same sense that no evidence of there not being a God proves that one exists. Atheism is based on what the adherent wants to believe, Theism or Gnosticism is based on what the adherent wants to believe. Neither is based on any empirical evidence whatsoever, and therefore is based on worthless hearsay. I reject the opinion of anyone who makes a judgment on anything based on absolutely nothing which is euphemized as "faith". The history of the majority of mankind insisting on basing its life on wishful thinking is a sad commentary on the critical thinking ability and rationalization skills of the common person, who finds objectivity difficult or impossible, and group thought so very comforting and reassuring. I don't believe in things I want to believe in, I believe in things which have indisputable evidence backing their existence, or believe in the probability of things which have all signs pointing toward their being so. Were only the rest of the temporal world concerned with the temporal world, rather than its insistence on maintaining the ridiculous fables and superstitions of relatively primitive peoples which have been adapted throughout time to ensorcel the idiot masses into the servitude of other men on the premise of the God they shrewdly created. The ultimate power play indeed, though not so difficult as it might seem with the sheep-like willingness of most to believe that what some random chump told them was actually the voice of God.

i have a question for athesits, why are you all so gay?

By the way, the creator of the post made a better case for Agnosticism or even the overlooked school of Skepticism, rather than Atheism. Citing no specific proof of God is no evidence that there cannot be a God, in the same sense that no evidence of there not being a God proves that one exists. Atheism is based on what the adherent wants to believe, Theism or Gnosticism is based on what the adherent wants to believe. Neither is based on any empirical evidence whatsoever, and therefore is based on worthless hearsay. I reject the opinion of anyone who makes a judgment on anything based on absolutely nothing which is euphemized as "faith". The history of the majority of mankind insisting on basing its life on wishful thinking is a sad commentary on the critical thinking ability and rationalization skills of the common person, who finds objectivity difficult or impossible, and group thought so very comforting and reassuring. I don't believe in things I want to believe in, I believe in things which have indisputable evidence backing their existence, or believe in the probability of things which have all signs pointing toward their being so. Were only the rest of the temporal world concerned with the temporal world, rather than its insistence on maintaining the ridiculous fables and superstitions of relatively primitive peoples which have been adapted throughout time to ensorcel the idiot masses into the servitude of other men on the premise of the God they shrewdly created. The ultimate power play indeed, though not so difficult as it might seem with the sheep-like willingness of most to believe that what some random chump told them was actually the voice of God.

I'm lost for words.

i have a question for athesits, why are you all so gay?

I have a question for theists, why are you all so gullible?

That really doesn't help Scnarf.

You know, I really pity you, Aryanis. I don't know what's happened to you to make you so bitter and angry towards anyone and everyone who believes in something, and find the need to insult, mock and defame in such a pretentious manner.

That really doesn't help Scnarf.

You know, I really pity you, Aryanis. I don't know what's happened to you to make you so bitter and angry towards anyone and everyone who believes in something, and find the need to insult, mock and defame in such a pretentious manner.

Don't worry. When the judgment comes......

Anyone else want to respond? I'm afraid posts like this merely make me want to expound on why the writer is a waste of organic material.... so I'm just going to be quiet.

And everyone knows that people who engage in childish namecalling, then run away from arguments they can't win are such credits to humanity. The glue which bounds your eyes shut is thick, indeed. Not that I'm complaining, if that disgraceful manner is the way you wish to present yourself, perhaps it would be best if you remained quiet. If you wish to engage in a mature debate, please, have at it. If you're going to throw out a pithy remark and run away, do so, and stay away.

You say the existence of God has never been proven. Fair enough. But how would one go about proving the existence of a non-physical being? It's like trying to prove that prime numbers exist - they're just a concept - but we still believe that they exist, regardless of the lack of empirical evidence. There is an equal chance that God does/doesn't exist, so it's down to faith in the end.

Out of interest, you say you're an atheist - which God don't you believe in? It seems as if the God you're describing has very little resemblance to the God of Christianity, or at least the God talked about in the Bible :confused:

Also the Big Bang theory doesn't rule out God at all - something non-physical, out-side of time, and omnipotent must have caused it, as 'Nothing can come from nothing'.

And everyone knows that people who engage in childish namecalling, then run away from arguments they can't win are such credits to humanity. The glue which bounds your eyes shut is thick, indeed. Not that I'm complaining, if that disgraceful manner is the way you wish to present yourself, perhaps it would be best if you remained quiet. If you wish to engage in a mature debate, please, have at it. If you're going to throw out a pithy remark and run away, do so, and stay away.

He's just kidding. Don't take it to heart.

There are three main questions stopping me from converting to Chritsianity...

I too am an atheist but I think your questions are too simplistic.

That really doesn't help Scnarf.

You know, I really pity you, Aryanis. I don't know what's happened to you to make you so bitter and angry towards anyone and everyone who believes in something, and find the need to insult, mock and defame in such a pretentious manner.


That's interesting, because I don't hate you or any follower of a particular religion whatsoever based on belief alone, nor have I acted with disrespect toward you on a personal level, whereas on the other hand you've now personally insulted me twice when I had never even spoken to you. Ah, the hypocrisy is so very symptomatic and prognosticable; your pity is duly noted.
There is no bitterness or anger from me, save for that directed toward the unrepentant consciences of the few hierarchs who have realized the lie they spread to further their own consolidation of power, for the authoritarian, freedom-restricting nature of many religions which has stunted the advancement of humanity under threat of death for weakening the power base of the citadel of falsehoods, and for any and all acts against humanity done in the name of whichever God. It's more of a frustration with people in general for being unable to discern the blindfold which has been applied to them, though it is partially self-applied as well. The incessant, daily mention of the various manmade hoax deities and their plans for us is rather annoying as well, but what am I gonna do, expect people to suddenly develop their cranial capacities to post-Paleolithic sizes and bother to apply critical thought to the world? If you feel personally mocked and defamed, I apologize, that was not my intention. Please, though, if you want to disprove my points, do so. I prefer topic-based discussion rather than immature, base, personal antipathy, namecalling, and "pity" for nonexistent characteristics. The "I feel sorry for you" line is old and crusty, man, get some new material if you feel Jesus wants you to go around insulting people who question the validity of unfathomably ridiculous fairy tales.

You say the existence of God has never been proven. Fair enough. But how would one go about proving the existence of a non-physical being? It's like trying to prove that prime numbers exist - they're just a concept - but we still believe that they exist, regardless of the lack of empirical evidence. There is an equal chance that God does/doesn't exist, so it's down to faith in the end.

Out of interest, you say you're an atheist - which God don't you believe in? It seems as if the God you're describing has very little resemblance to the God of Christianity, or at least the God talked about in the Bible :confused:

Also the Big Bang theory doesn't rule out God at all - something non-physical, out-side of time, and omnipotent must have caused it, as 'Nothing can come from nothing'.

If God came to earth as a man to die for us, why can't he come to earth to bask in all his glory permanently?

No, Big Bang doesn't rule out God. I think I made the point earlier that it is the official position of the Catholic Church.

When you say that the God I describe has little resembalence to the Christian God, what do you mean?

Hello simon, you seem very friendly with ur neighbour

That's really very sad. That's the reason I don't like protestant bible bashers. Instead of trying to convince you that you're wrong and should repent, they propose that you convert for your own happiness. I don't think that's right.

Commie - I have still not fully formed my religious idea. Why is it really sad? What is wrong with trying to find a way to live an easier life?

One thing I am not doing is trying to convert people. Actually I am trying to convert myself. My last post was mainly to provoke a contradiction to what I was thinking as I wasnt convinced of my argument myself :P

I too am an atheist but I think your questions are too simplistic.

Care to elaborate a little?

Commie - I have still not fully formed my religious idea. Why is it really sad? What is wrong with trying to find a way to live an easier life?

One thing I am not doing is trying to convert people. Actually I am trying to convert myself. My last post was mainly to provoke a contradiction to what I was thinking as I wasnt convinced of my argument myself :P

I know your not trying to convert people that's not the point. I may be wrong, but if God does exist and you worship him for your glory (happiness) and not his, would he hold you in very high regard?

Sorry if I've interperated your post wrong.

Intellizia,
Dont let anyone confuse you by asking pointless rhetorical questions about faith.

Take your own sweet ass time discovering what you believe, and when you have found it...

Stick to it.

I'll tell you all honestly what I think. I think man had to create the concept of God or else go crazy. As humans became rational, they could think in the abstract. They could visualize future events more accurately than any animal before. Animals probably don't realize their own inevitable mortality. Humans do. Our big brains let us in on the grim truth. No matter what you do, you're gonna die. As personal survival is our strongest instinct, this caused severe emotional disturbance. The only answer was to create an idea that could soothe our terror - the afterlife. And from the concept of the afterlife all religion has flowed.

I'll tell you all honestly what I think. I think man had to create the concept of God or else go crazy. As humans became rational, they could think in the abstract. They could visualize future events more accurately than any animal before. Animals probably don't realize their own inevitable mortality. Humans do. Our big brains let us in on the grim truth. No matter what you do, you're gonna die. As personal survival is our strongest instinct, this caused severe emotional disturbance. The only answer was to create an idea that could soothe our terror - the afterlife. And from the concept of the afterlife all religion has flowed.



Giveth unto this man, a cigar.
-Book of BackwoodsSquatches, 3:23.

I'll tell you all honestly what I think. I think man had to create the concept of God or else go crazy. As humans became rational, they could think in the abstract. They could visualize future events more accurately than any animal before. Animals probably don't realize their own inevitable mortality. Humans do. Our big brains let us in on the grim truth. No matter what you do, you're gonna die. As personal survival is our strongest instinct, this caused severe emotional disturbance. The only answer was to create an idea that could soothe our terror - the afterlife. And from the concept of the afterlife all religion has flowed.

Yes, that's what I thought.

No, instead you attempt to tear down my religion, and thus myself by implication that anyone with faith suffers from cognitive dissonance. Forgive my paraphrasing, but it's late and I'd rather be sleeping than copying your long-winded tirade. Though I commend you on your mastery of the English language. My initial comment was to convey my reaction to someone so callously defaming my beliefs, and to make known that I would not reply so as not to descend to the level of personal insults, and furthermore to encourage someone else to respond to your points. You claim to have not disrespected me on a personal level, yet include me in phrases such as 'idiot masses' by virtue of the fact that I have religious faith. I do believe that is disrespectful, both to me and to everyone else in this forum who holds those selfsame beliefs, as well as varied beliefs of their own, given the fact that you included virtually everyone who does not agree with you exactly in your denunciation of the sheep-like herd. Your comments do little but engender animosity, and are neither needed nor appreciated if you must resort to tearing down people instead of debating ideas.
Have a good day.

I know your not trying to convert people that's not the point. I may be wrong, but if God does exist and you worship him for your glory (happiness) and not his, would he hold you in very high regard?

Sorry if I've interperated your post wrong.

I got you now. But you see, like I said so far I have only just come around to acknowledging the existence of God. That is it - I believe in God - and have not decided on anything else. I just believe in God existence and that he is overlooking my life. I havent come to thinking about God as a person who want something from me. So far I think God does not need anything else from me apart from to believe he exists.

I believe in a God that does not need anything from me. If I believe in his existence then I reap the reward.

I'll tell you all honestly what I think. I think man had to create the concept of God or else go crazy. As humans became rational, they could think in the abstract. They could visualize future events more accurately than any animal before. Animals probably don't realize their own inevitable mortality. Humans do. Our big brains let us in on the grim truth. No matter what you do, you're gonna die. As personal survival is our strongest instinct, this caused severe emotional disturbance. The only answer was to create an idea that could soothe our terror - the afterlife. And from the concept of the afterlife all religion has flowed.

I would say religion stems more from ignorance. People experienced things that they could not reasonably explain, (death, I guess could be included) and so they added supernatural explanations.

I would say religion stems more from ignorance. People experienced things that they could not reasonably explain, (death, I guess could be included) and so they added supernatural explanations.

Well maybe it stems from both ignorance and insecurity?

I don't know how applicable this is to you, since I don't know your opinion concerning the bible, but... James 2:18-20.

I'll tell you all honestly what I think. I think man had to create the concept of God or else go crazy. As humans became rational, they could think in the abstract. They could visualize future events more accurately than any animal before. Animals probably don't realize their own inevitable mortality. Humans do. Our big brains let us in on the grim truth. No matter what you do, you're gonna die. As personal survival is our strongest instinct, this caused severe emotional disturbance. The only answer was to create an idea that could soothe our terror - the afterlife. And from the concept of the afterlife all religion has flowed.

Spot on my man!!!! Actually that is also what I thought. And I realise how empty my life feels without God. But as I tried to live my last 8 years without God it was bloody damn hard. I am not strong enough to live without God. And I feel crap everyday. Maybe when humans can completely control their emotions and natural instincts then we no longer have a need to believe in God. Right now I am not strong enough and I am doing the minimium - just believe in existence of God Religion haha.

Intellizia,
Dont let anyone confuse you by asking pointless rhetorical questions about faith.

Take your own sweet ass time discovering what you believe, and when you have found it...

Stick to it.

I dont get confused with more points of view but more knowledge. It is easier to discover with 10 brains then one.

Why beat our heads senseless against another persons wall of hatred and ignorance again?
Atheists are beyond human help.

You b@stard! I hate people like you, telling me I'm a fool for not beliving in your superstitions! There is no proof of God, other than the Bible. Typical theist idea: "The Bible is true because it's the word of God. It's the word of God because it says so in the Bible". Well A-B-C-DUH! People who genuinly belive in that circular argument have no right to say I'm "beyond human help".
You want to talk about hatred and ignorance? Fine, lets see. First of we have people who murder doctors who perform abortions shouting "thou shalt not kill". Then we have the inquisition. Enough said. If you want to quote the Bible, lets see, take Noahs' ark, God killed everyone, even the fundamentaly innocent (i.e babies). Then Noah, the "only good person" gets drunk and rolls around naked after the Flood! Sounds bloody ignorant on this side of the fence! Bet they didn't tell you that in sunday school!
I don't hate all theists (my entire family is Christian. Makes it akward at funerals), but I have a loathing for people like you and Pat Robertson! :mad:

I don't know how applicable this is to you, since I don't know your opinion concerning the bible, but... James 2:18-20.

"Faith without works is dead"
I think that means that there is no such thing as faith without science. Is that right.

No, instead you attempt to tear down my religion, and thus myself by implication that anyone with faith suffers from cognitive dissonance. Forgive my paraphrasing, but it's late and I'd rather be sleeping than copying your long-winded tirade. Though I commend you on your mastery of the English language. My initial comment was to convey my reaction to someone so callously defaming my beliefs, and to make known that I would not reply so as not to descend to the level of personal insults, and furthermore to encourage someone else to respond to your points. You claim to have not disrespected me on a personal level, yet include me in phrases such as 'idiot masses' by virtue of the fact that I have religious faith. I do believe that is disrespectful, both to me and to everyone else in this forum who holds those selfsame beliefs, as well as varied beliefs of their own, given the fact that you included virtually everyone who does not agree with you exactly in your denunciation of the sheep-like herd. Your comments do little but engender animosity, and are neither needed nor appreciated if you must resort to tearing down people instead of debating ideas.
Have a good day.

Don't take it so personally, man. I make references to "the idiot masses" all the time in a non-religious context. Paris Hilton was voted "the most fascinating person of the year" in People. The vast majority of people have always been and always will be unable to think for themselves, and are subconsciously more than willing to accept whatever is spoonfed to them. Were independent thought ubiquitous, would advertising work nearly as well? I don't blame people for what they are, or their shortcomings. I say such things because I feel a regret that the majority of humanity refuses to realize the nature of the shackles it has applied to itself, much less throw them aside.

As for personal insults, you say your original comment was intended not to descend to a level of dishing them out. Would that be why you referred to me as a "waste of organic matter" when I had never addressed you in my life, then showed your derision by "pitying" me? Chill with the sanctimonious infallibility bit, you're of suspect ability in acting it out :P. You also can't really talk to me about engendering animosity rather than dealing with the issues, considering my original post was ONLY about the issues, whereas not a single of yours has been even vaguely about the topic, but only a diatribe on portraying me, personally, in the worst light possible. As for my earlier described "pretentiousness", ask yourself whether a person claiming he has ALL the answers to the mystery of the universe is more pretentious than the person willing to admit we are not God's special children, in the center of his universe, given all the inside secrets on his nature and our own creation, and willing to admit we are rather small beings in a giant, largely unexplained universe currently beyond our comprehension.

Actually dying doesnt bother me. It is the worrying that gets me down. And I am so much mentally stronger when I have God on my side then when I havent.

I think that is the why religion is so important the world over in order to help us rather then our desire to know how we were created.

If religion did not help me I dont think I would have care.

You b@stard! I hate people like you, telling me I'm a fool for not beliving in your superstitions! There is no proof of God, other than the Bible. Typical theist idea: "The Bible is true because it's the word of God. It's the word of God because it says so in the Bible". Well A-B-C-DUH! People who genuinly belive in that circular argument have no right to say I'm "beyond human help".
You want to talk about hatred and ignorance? Fine, lets see. First of we have people who murder doctors who perform abortions shouting "thou shalt not kill". Then we have the inquisition. Enough said. If you want to quote the Bible, lets see, take Noahs' ark, God killed everyone, even the fundamentaly innocent (i.e babies). Then Noah, the "only good person" gets drunk and rolls around naked after the Flood! Sounds bloody ignorant on this side of the fence! Bet they didn't tell you that in sunday school!
I don't hate all theists (my entire family is Christian. Makes it akward at funerals), but I have a loathing for people like you and Pat Robertson! :mad:

Sounds like someone needs some good ol' bible therapy! :)

I am sorry for interupting your conversation but I have something to say. I am former atheist and I know the stuff that is going through your head commie catholic but let me try this. But First let me say I am not really Catholic but I do prefer it as it is the one I grew up under. Religion is something people created to satisfy their curiosity about the universe and the world we live on. Now it's also something people can take comfort in knowling (believing) that there is someone in the sky saying it's ok and you can go on with your life. People have done this forever and probabley will keep right on doing it forever, but I will tell you this there is something. There has to be something. There is something that just, I don't know connects us to every living thing and the rest of the Universe. If you don't see that I hope you will.

That proved...Nothing.
You can't prove or disprove the existence of God. I am an atheist because I lack faith in him. It's that simple for me.

Just couldnt be bothered anymore, atheists are beyond human help.
I can tell you're a great Christian


16When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the "sinners" and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: "Why does he eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"

17On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

I hate it when people who quote a book that isn't on the bestseller list.

I am sorry for interupting your conversation but I have something to say. I am former atheist and I know the stuff that is going through your head commie catholic but let me try this. But First let me say I am not really Catholic but I do prefer it as it is the one I grew up under. Religion is something people created to satisfy their curiosity about the universe and the world we live on. Now it's also something people can take comfort in knowling (believing) that there is someone in the sky saying it's ok and you can go on with your life. People have done this forever and probabley will keep right on doing it forever, but I will tell you this there is something. There has to be something. There is something that just, I don't know connects us to every living thing and the rest of the Universe. If you don't see that I hope you will.

Sorry, I'm afraid I don't. I just don't think there has to be something. I know that a lot of people find comfort in their beliefs, but for some reason I find comfort in thinking that I'm just the product of some random event and from nothing I've become a member of the most intelligent beings in the universe.

this all sounds a bit deep... :mp5:

The future is all too unstable to make me an atheist. There HAS to be a higher being above, and the rest of Christianity made me love it.

this all sounds a bit deep... :mp5:

Only 1 post? You should get used to it. This is all that's ever on these forums.

Well there has to be common thread that runs through everything the Cosmos or else we wouldn't be here.

I can tell you're a great Christian
Yes, and I suppose if I tried to help you I would be called a bible basher etc, or something like, trying to ram my faith down your throat.
Dammed if I do, and damned if I dont, eh?

Reminds me of the Chinese saying:

"it's there if you believe it, it's not if you don't".
I admint - it's also with science. Half of it is pure theory and half is laws that are changed from time to time. Remember Athoms? Well... There are very good theories that say that matter is totally non-existant! It's all a pure energy.

The sun was formed by a collapsing Nebula. A flower is merely an organism. Science explains both of those things.
I agree. But science can't explain HOW and WHY those things happened. By the way - many if not most of scientists are beliving in God. Besides - never said anything about physics - I was saying about emotions, beautifulness and happiness. About deep, beuatiful relationships among people. Look:Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.I don't say that science cannot explain things. But science is shallow and besides - theories changes faster every decade. 100 years ahead Scientific American could publish theories that buried all previous paradigms - in "Scientists' Social Column"... I think that religion is much better as a world-view and perspective than every-day-changing science. Is it so?

There are three main questions stopping me from converting to Chritsianity. If you do answer them, don't do it with 'God works in mysterious ways'.
1) Why does God not wish us to have proof of his existance?
What can he possibly get out of us believing in him that he can't get out of us being certain that he exists?

What would you define as proof though? Assume that the Universe was created, wouldn't that be proof enough? Yet we have a totally different explanation that many people find plausible. What could God do that we amazingly imaginative humans couldn't come up with an explanation for?
Come and live amongst us? If you read the latter part of Revelations, that is what will happen. And you know what? People still don't believe. (That is the thousand year reign.)

2) Why did Jesus give the church the power to forgive sins?
If I sin and repent, why do I need to have some priest tell me I'm forgiven? If I have repented I will be forgiven at the judgment. The church gathered a lot of power and money through their ability to forgive sins so why would Jesus give them that power if he knew damn well they would become corrupt?

The Catholic Church, (WARNING: This will probably offend Catholics!) was not founded by Peter. It was founded by Emperor Constantine circa 312A.D. He was at war to claim the position of Caesar, and he saw a cross in the sky. He claimed to hear a voice saying, "Under this sign you will conquer" so he marched his army through a river, declared them baptised Christians and won the war. The Church, as a man-made institution organised for the accumulation of power, claimed such authority to further their own ends.
Matthew 16:
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Peter's name translates as "stone" so verse 18/19 was actually a pun. Jesus was actually saying that the foundation of his Church would be what Peter had said i.e. that Jesus was the Christ.
He gave them the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven in that he gave them the information required to save them and others.
I am not entirely sure about the second part of verse 19, one interpretation of this was that Peter and those who also believed should determine if others could participate in the church, that is:were their confessions of faith genuine? This is problematic even today, people say they are Christian but do not follow any of the teachings, thereby bringing the entire faith into disrepute.

3) With the hundreds of religions we have, what makes Christianity any more correct than Islam, Hinduism, Buddism, etc?
Since the very beginning of communication the question has been raised, "How did we get here?". In a time of such primitive knowledge of the universe, the only option of explaination was the supernatural. They used God[s] to explain fire, rain, love, human existance, etc. We have for some time been able to explain fire, rain and love(to an extent). Just because the only question left is "How did we get here, which we can't currently answer, why do we still insist on using God to explain it?
That is where belief comes in. I believe the Bible, I haven't found anything in it that I find totally unreasonable. Others don't, and they do. That is what you have to decide for yourself.
I would give you my personal beliefs, but I think this post is preachy enough already! :)

What would you define as proof though? Assume that the Universe was created, wouldn't that be proof enough? Yet we have a totally different explanation that many people find plausible. What could God do that we amazingly imaginative humans couldn't come up with an explanation for?
Come and live amongst us? If you read the latter part of Revelations, that is what will happen. And you know what? People still don't believe. (That is the thousand year reign.)

The Catholic Church, (WARNING: This will probably offend Catholics!) was not founded by Peter. It was founded by Emperor Constantine circa 312A.D. He was at war to claim the position of Caesar, and he saw a cross in the sky. He claimed to hear a voice saying, "Under this sign you will conquer" so he marched his army through a river, declared them baptised Christians and won the war. The Church, as a man-made institution organised for the accumulation of power, claimed such authority to further their own ends.
Matthew 16:
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Peter's name translates as "stone" so verse 18/19 was actually a pun. Jesus was actually saying that the foundation of his Church would be what Peter had said i.e. that Jesus was the Christ.
He gave them the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven in that he gave them the information required to save them and others.
I am not entirely sure about the second part of verse 19, one interpretation of this was that Peter and those who also believed should determine if others could participate in the church, that is:were their confessions of faith genuine? This is problematic even today, people say they are Christian but do not follow any of the teachings, thereby bringing the entire faith into disrepute.

That is where belief comes in. I believe the Bible, I haven't found anything in it that I find totally unreasonable. Others don't, and they do. That is what you have to decide for yourself.
I would give you my personal beliefs, but I think this post is preachy enough already! :)

I think you offended just about everyCatholic on NS with that post (sniggers). What I would define as proof enough would be God on earth as an immortal being to whom we could inquire as to his motivations through direct, face-to-face, conversation. Reading Revelations and believing he's gonna come and live amongst us is no better than reading 1984 and believing that.

I think you offended just about everyCatholic on NS with that post (sniggers). What I would define as proof enough would be God on earth as an immortal being to whom we could inquire as to his motivations through direct, face-to-face, conversation. Reading Revelations and believing he's gonna come and live amongst us is no better than reading 1984 and believing that.
According to the Bible, seeing God would kill you. (Exodus 33:20)
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
I think that (and this is a personal belief) God wants us to make our own decisions in life.
If you could fly over to -blank- and ask him anything, how many people would never do anything? If you could see that God was right there judging every single thing you did would you be able to enjoy life? I think (a lot of) people would expect God to take care of everything for them so that they would never have to make a decision (I already know people like this) and I believe that that would go against his intent. Kind of like a parent who does everything for their child, that child never really learns how to take care of themself. And with a supreme being, that would be so much more extreme.

Are you seriously suggesting you don't believe 1984?!?!?! Sacrilege! ;)

A familiar story, told from a different perspective

- Maheem sat on the rock, frustrated at the cloudy sky. She normally enjoyed watching the sunset as she waited for her husband to return from the fields, but the unseasonal weather had thwarted her today. A storm is coming, she thought to herself, pulling the furs tightly around her body as the breeze became chilly. The baby had started crying, so she gathered up her tools and the basket of fruit and went inside, closing the door against the darkening sky.

Her child was quite beautiful - a little baby boy just four months old. The baby gripped her finger when she offered it to him, and this seemed to calm him somewhat. She sat down beside the crib and stroked the young one's forehead, singing him a lullaby that she remembered from her own childhood. The baby settled down and slowly drifted off to sleep once more, but she remained by him, singing quietly and waiting for her man to come through the door. What was keeping him? He should be back by now.

Quietly, she stood up and walked to the door, to see if she could see him before it became too dark. Going outside, she saw something that terrified her like nothing had done before.

The sky.

It was almost black, and the clouds were rolling and boiling as if they were alive, pouring across the sky from horizon to horizon like flowing tar. In the distance, a herd of antelope, normally so graceful, sprinted across the low ground in panic, trying to flee but not knowing where to go. An elephant was calling out in fear somewhere in the trees behind her, and thousands of birds were rising from the forest. There was no sign of her man, the gentle father of her child, the husband who she loved so dearly.

The child! She ran back inside and picked him up, holding him to her chest and folding the furs around him. She went to the entrance of the dwelling, praying that her husband would be in sight. He was not. Now the rains came. Rain like she had never seen before. There was hardly any wind, and the rain was falling vertically to the ground, as if it wanted to get there with no delay, as if it was being forced to the earth. Lightning flickered at the end of the valley, and the animals screamed, but she could not hear them above the sound of the rain. The parched land around the dwelling was turning into thick mud now, and beginning to wash away. The roof was being battered and starting to break up, and the small fire in the hut had been extinguished. Apart from the lightning, the world had gone completely black. Tears ran down her face as screamed in terror, and the baby had now begun to cry because of the cold, and the wet, and the noise, and the fear he could sense in his mother.

Maheem stood there, not knowing what to do, or where to run, or why this was happening, or where her husband was. Almost unbelievably, the rain increased in intensity until it had the ferocity of a waterfall. She slipped in the mud, and the water began to wash her down the slope. She could not open her eyes because of the strength of the rain, which felt like it was bruising her entire body. The baby in her arms, normally so gentle and quiet, was screaming in fear, and she desperately tried to keep the choking mud away from his mouth.

And then rain stopped. The world was still black, and Maheem pushed herself up onto her knees, hugging the baby and wiping the cold mud from him. Nothing. No noise but the sound of the thick, filthy waters draining past her. No rain.

Just darkness. Even the animals were silent. Shakily, she managed to get to her feet, trying not to slip in the darkness.

Maheem felt the ground tremble slightly beneath her feet, and felt her ears pop as the air pressure suddenly changed.

The wave came.

A thousand feet high, and travelling at nearly the speed of sound. It washed across the continent, obliterating everything in its path, scouring the rocks of all living things. Picking up trees, mud, rocks, people and animals as it went, it became more a solid than a liquid.

She had just enough time to turn round and scream before it hit her.


* * * * * *
Eight days later, the last contact Maheem had with other humans was when the Great Ark nudged her broken body aside, the lifeless child still held tightly in her dead arms, as it ploughed through the churning waters of the Flood.

According to the Bible, seeing God would kill you. (Exodus 33:20)
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
I think that (and this is a personal belief) God wants us to make our own decisions in life.
If you could fly over to -blank- and ask him anything, how many people would never do anything? If you could see that God was right there judging every single thing you did would you be able to enjoy life? I think (a lot of) people would expect God to take care of everything for them so that they would never have to make a decision (I already know people like this) and I believe that that would go against his intent. Kind of like a parent who does everything for their child, that child never really learns how to take care of themself. And with a supreme being, that would be so much more extreme.

Are you seriously suggesting you don't believe 1984?!?!?! Sacrilege! ;)

That's what I don't understand. Why doesn't God want to be seen? I suppose it probably would be inconvinient being badgered by several million people. I'm getting there. That helps. Thanks.

That's what I don't understand. Why doesn't God want to be seen? I suppose it probably would be inconvinient being badgered by several million people. I'm getting there. That helps. Thanks.
My understanding of it is that as God is totally holy, simply seeing him would kill us, not that he would kill us for seeing him. In chapter 34, verse 29 of Exodus it says that having seen God's hands and back, "the skin of his face shone". Moses was physically altered from being in God's presence.

A familiar story, told from a different perspective

- Maheem sat on the rock, frustrated at the cloudy sky. She normally enjoyed watching the sunset as she waited for her husband to return from the fields, but the unseasonal weather had thwarted her today. A storm is coming, she thought to herself, pulling the furs tightly around her body as the breeze became chilly. The baby had started crying, so she gathered up her tools and the basket of fruit and went inside, closing the door against the darkening sky.

Her child was quite beautiful - a little baby boy just four months old. The baby gripped her finger when she offered it to him, and this seemed to calm him somewhat. She sat down beside the crib and stroked the young one's forehead, singing him a lullaby that she remembered from her own childhood. The baby settled down and slowly drifted off to sleep once more, but she remained by him, singing quietly and waiting for her man to come through the door. What was keeping him? He should be back by now.

Quietly, she stood up and walked to the door, to see if she could see him before it became too dark. Going outside, she saw something that terrified her like nothing had done before.

The sky.

It was almost black, and the clouds were rolling and boiling as if they were alive, pouring across the sky from horizon to horizon like flowing tar. In the distance, a herd of antelope, normally so graceful, sprinted across the low ground in panic, trying to flee but not knowing where to go. An elephant was calling out in fear somewhere in the trees behind her, and thousands of birds were rising from the forest. There was no sign of her man, the gentle father of her child, the husband who she loved so dearly.

The child! She ran back inside and picked him up, holding him to her chest and folding the furs around him. She went to the entrance of the dwelling, praying that her husband would be in sight. He was not. Now the rains came. Rain like she had never seen before. There was hardly any wind, and the rain was falling vertically to the ground, as if it wanted to get there with no delay, as if it was being forced to the earth. Lightning flickered at the end of the valley, and the animals screamed, but she could not hear them above the sound of the rain. The parched land around the dwelling was turning into thick mud now, and beginning to wash away. The roof was being battered and starting to break up, and the small fire in the hut had been extinguished. Apart from the lightning, the world had gone completely black. Tears ran down her face as screamed in terror, and the baby had now begun to cry because of the cold, and the wet, and the noise, and the fear he could sense in his mother.

Maheem stood there, not knowing what to do, or where to run, or why this was happening, or where her husband was. Almost unbelievably, the rain increased in intensity until it had the ferocity of a waterfall. She slipped in the mud, and the water began to wash her down the slope. She could not open her eyes because of the strength of the rain, which felt like it was bruising her entire body. The baby in her arms, normally so gentle and quiet, was screaming in fear, and she desperately tried to keep the choking mud away from his mouth.

And then rain stopped. The world was still black, and Maheem pushed herself up onto her knees, hugging the baby and wiping the cold mud from him. Nothing. No noise but the sound of the thick, filthy waters draining past her. No rain.

Just darkness. Even the animals were silent. Shakily, she managed to get to her feet, trying not to slip in the darkness.

Maheem felt the ground tremble slightly beneath her feet, and felt her ears pop as the air pressure suddenly changed.

The wave came.

A thousand feet high, and travelling at nearly the speed of sound. It washed across the continent, obliterating everything in its path, scouring the rocks of all living things. Picking up trees, mud, rocks, people and animals as it went, it became more a solid than a liquid.

She had just enough time to turn round and scream before it hit her.


* * * * * *
Eight days later, the last contact Maheem had with other humans was when the Great Ark nudged her broken body aside, the lifeless child still held tightly in her dead arms, as it ploughed through the churning waters of the Flood.

The same story, told from the same perspective, but the timeframe was a few days prior to your story:

Maheem carried her baby onto the hill with the crowd, where all the world's animals had gathered to the front of the giant boat-shaped thing, and joined in the gossip.

'Noah is bonkers!' commented one lady.

'All that animals are making a terrible stench!' said another.

Maheem only watched for some time. She had to return to the brothrel before sunset to entertain the guests. There were no moral obligations and no STDs to signal that there was something wrong with willing prostitution, because the entire society joined in the giant orgy. All Maheem was interested in was to raise her 5 children, whose fathers are unknown, in great luxury, so they could earn as much and return Maheem her favours when they grew up...

However, of all the religions in existance, Christianity has the most documented evidence. (lots o' historical records from the era, plus many of the events/areas referenced in the Bible have been confirmed through archeology, the Shroud of Turin and other miracles, etc.) Sure, it's not rock hard evidence, but it's more than other religions.

What utter rubbish.

The same story, told from the same perspective, but the timeframe was a few days prior to your story:

Maheem carried her baby onto the hill with the crowd, where all the world's animals had gathered to the front of the giant boat-shaped thing, and joined in the gossip.

'Noah is bonkers!' commented one lady.

'All that animals are making a terrible stench!' said another.

Maheem only watched for some time. She had to return to the brothrel before sunset to entertain the guests. There were no moral obligations and no STDs to signal that there was something wrong with willing prostitution, because the entire society joined in the giant orgy. All Maheem was interested in was to raise her 5 children, whose fathers are unknown, in great luxury, so they could earn as much and return Maheem her favours when they grew up...


I really wish Christians would get over the whole sex thing.
Genesis 6:13
And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

See? Violence! Not sex! There is no mention of sex! It says: "violence"! Stop worrying about sex!

Atheist for the most part, but small part satanist as I believe in questioning what might be put before me.

I dont see why many people believe that the enjoyment of life is a sin. God if he so chooses to exist gave unto man free will and so let them make their own decisions as to where they end up. As long as I consider myself to be righteous and good to the values that I have layed out for myself I have nothing to fear from any higher power, if not then I become wormfood knowing that I had a good and fruitful life.
I've loved, I've made people happy, I've had fun, but most of all I've been myself with nobody forcing anything upon me.

Everyone has their own choice. Whether they believe in a God or scientific proof is up to them. I'm already decided on how I will live my life and it will be without divine intervention. If only the handful of the Christians, Muslims etc etc that try to push their religion would just back off and leave everyone to make their own choice many people would be a lot happier.

Or that's my view anyway...

I think that religion is much better as a world-view and perspective than every-day-changing science.

What, and religion isn't always changing its' mind? First they said Mary Magdalene was a prostitute, then they retracted that. They said that the Earth was the center of the universe, then they agreed that the Earth went around the sun.*

*They=Catholic church

If anyone here really wants to find answers instead of just being the one that yells the loudest in regards to spewing their opinions onto everyone else around here, they should leave this public shouting match and go read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis.

Here, read this review of the book, it's summarized pretty good.

http://inspiriting.com/html/mere_christianity.html

Then get on down to your local library or bookstore and pick up a copy of it, most all of the topics discussed here are addressed in it. If you don't like the answers in that book, you could try the Bible itself, but really, at that point, you've likely already made up your mind for or against Christianity.

There are three main questions stopping me from converting to Chritsianity. If you do answer them, don't do it with 'God works in mysterious ways'.

1) Why does God not wish us to have proof of his existance?
What can he possibly get out of us believing in him that he can't get out of us being certain that he exists?

2) Why did Jesus give the church the power to forgive sins?
If I sin and repent, why do I need to have some priest tell me I'm forgiven? If I have repented I will be forgiven at the judgment. The church gathered a lot of power and money through their ability to forgive sins so why would Jesus give them that power if he knew damn well they would become corrupt?

3) With the hundreds of religions we have, what makes Christianity any more correct than Islam, Hinduism, Buddism, etc?
Since the very beginning of communication the question has been raised, "How did we get here?". In a time of such primitive knowledge of the universe, the only option of explaination was the supernatural. They used God[s] to explain fire, rain, love, human existance, etc. We have for some time been able to explain fire, rain and love(to an extent). Just because the only question left is "How did we get here, which we can't currently answer, why do we still insist on using God to explain it?

1) Because He wants us to have faith. He doesn't want us to believe in Him because it's obvious that anything else would be foolish, He wants us to believe in Him because we want to, and because we actaully have faith. Faith, by the way, is defined as being certain of what we hope for, and sure of what we cannot see.

2) Jesus did not give the Church power to forgive sins, He told them that through Him they could forgive sins. The Catholic Church has, unfortunately, twisted this, like they've done to many other things. I'd like to note that if you want a good example of Christianity, you shouldn't look to the Catholic Church to provide it.

3) Because we have evidence, such as the Bible, that God IS how we got here. Unlike Islam, for example, whose scriptures were written sometime after the events and person they talked about, the books of the Bible were, for the mostpart, written while or soon after the events they spoke of. The Bible also has more copies sooner after the events than any manuscript known to man, and the best historians would, if it were not the Bible, say these facts allow us to be relatively certain that the Bible speaks the truth. There is also amazing cooperation between the books; they were written by many different authors, over a span of many years, on 3 different continents, and yet none of them disagree with each other. The head of the History Department at Oxford University said that after studying all the evidence, there is no fact of which he is more historically certain than the fact that Jesus died and rose again. Also, Muhammad, when asked to perform a miralce, refused. Jesus did as well, but Muhammad is never recorded as having performed a miracle, whereas Jesus is recorded as having performed many dozens, if not hundreds, if miracles. I like to think that's enough evidence.

Alright try this (it probably won't work):

Ignore all evidence of God's existence or non-existence.
Just decide whether you want to believe in God. It's up to you, and bitching about God on the forums invariably causes more problems than it solves. If you want to be atheist, then by all means, go ahead, I'm not going to persecute you.

And that's my 2 cents.

What, and religion isn't always changing its' mind? First they said Mary Magdalene was a prostitute, then they retracted that. They said that the Earth was the center of the universe, then they agreed that the Earth went around the sun.*

*They=Catholic church
Exactly. I'm not catholic... But the problem is that those things where details - fundaments of christianity are unchanged. Science don't even have any fundaments so it's core, basic theories are constantly changing.

Science and religion don't have to be conflicting each other. They compliment each other in our understanding of the world.

Science and religion don't have to be conflicting each other. They compliment each other in our understanding of the world.

Yeah, in a since, religion cannot work in some ways without science. Science backs religion on the records the religion's books may contain, such as the amount of people in an army, and shows how its possible for a seemingly impossible battle to be won, using scientific, and geometric strategy.

on another note...
If you are a true Christian, it’s impossible for science to disprove your faith in god. Simply because you believe god created science. And that science only proves that god made a very complex world. Proving a scientific theory like human cloning doesn’t out-rule god (using cloning as an example, insert what ever scientific related thing you can think of). it only shows that god plotted out the human's ability to manipulate life.

And if to answer the question in full (if god is real, why doesn’t he show himself)

the answer is simply this: That it is god's choice to not show himself in the fact that he cannot truly exist without faith, and faith is only knowing and believing what you cannot see, so what if god just decides one day that he is going to pop-out of no where? he would no longer exist. Sound crazy? Let me explain more...

The reason god created Jesus was to die for us, and do things on earth to prove god's existence without god actually showing himself. Jesus being on earth explains god's existence because i know for a fact that in that day-in-age they were not capable of conceiving a bay without having sex. But Jesus’ birth doesn’t prove god's existence completely, it only improves our faith.

So then when Jesus was born his duty was to die for our sins, and prove god's existence. So Jesus himself is proof that there is a god. and as explained before, his existence is also proven in the bible, and also stated before, is that the bible is believable because of the multiple copies made in different places, did not contradict each other. and were perfectly linear.

So now mabye you can see that god wont just pop out because he needs faith to exist, and faith is dis-proven, and turned into knowledge when he shows himself. you see?

Im fairly sure that no one before me mentioned this, and is one of the greatest fundamentals to understand if you are a christian.

To put things into perspective, god needs faith to survive, faith is gone is god shows himself, god is proven to exist in a since, but not completely, by jesus's birth.

And christianity is true for the simple reason of faith, a concept that few religions understand is more powerful than and actual object.

So now mabye you can see that god wont just pop out because he needs faith to exist, and faith is dis-proven, and turned into knowledge when he shows himself. you see?

Im fairly sure that no one before me mentioned this, and is one of the greatest fundamentals to understand if you are a christian.

To put things into perspective, god needs faith to survive, faith is gone is god shows himself, god is proven to exist in a since, but not completely, by jesus's birth.

And christianity is true for the simple reason of faith, a concept that few religions understand is more powerful than and actual object.
I think a lot of that “needs faith to get into heaven” belief is actually just a nice way to structure your religion so that those that are members will not look too closely for their creator … keeps them happy and with an excuse not to try to prove him and fail at it

Funny how the Christians (Of which I know there are many on the forums) avoid this thread.

I believe what I believe. You won't change that.
You believe what you believe. I won't change that.

These kind of arguments are like playing Tic-Tac-Toe. The only way to win is not to play!

Well I havn't bothered to post here before... But these stupid topics are really over the top. Atheists / Satanists / Agnostics / Whatever..... what is your obsession with trying to take apart Religion. Some people believe in it, some people don't. If you don't you shouldn't need to try and tell everyone about how other peoples beliefs are inherently wrong.

Gods playing a dangerous game with faith dont you think? my very soul depends on God yet he doesnt want me to know for sure that he exists. he wants me to "believe" in him??? please, satan and his demons KNOW that he exists yet dont follow him(james 2:19). how should i be able to follow god when beings that knows he exists do not?

after being a christian for twenty years i finally cut the cord so to speak. all i heard was about faith. there is never any real fact to go on. the bible is like the koran or the vedas or any other holy book. christianity is just like any other religion. i say screw god for confusing the hell out of people then sending thier soul to burn for making the wrong decision.

Well I havn't bothered to post here before... But these stupid topics are really over the top. Atheists / Satanists / Agnostics / Whatever..... what is your obsession with trying to take apart Religion. Some people believe in it, some people don't. If you don't you shouldn't need to try and tell everyone about how other peoples beliefs are inherently wrong.

The reason why people do that is because they have nothing else more useful or positive to do with themselves. That's the pitiful part of this all.

Well I havn't bothered to post here before... But these stupid topics are really over the top. Atheists / Satanists / Agnostics / Whatever..... what is your obsession with trying to take apart Religion. Some people believe in it, some people don't. If you don't you shouldn't need to try and tell everyone about how other peoples beliefs are inherently wrong.
If you bothered to read this was posted by many of us before
1) that religion is trying to control our lives claiming it is the complete truth without any proof
2) Most of us are familiar with it and on the forums enjoy debating in general and religion makes a good topic because a) we are familiar with it b) we are not in agreement with it

All in all like everything in this universe I reserve the right to question it as much as I like

The reason why people do that is because they have nothing else more useful or positive to do with themselves. That's the pitiful part of this all.
That or we could just enjoy debate and this makes a decent topic to debate about (if you forgive some of the baffling or frustrating (at times)axioms some religious people hold)

If you bothered to read this was posted by many of us before
1) that religion is trying to control our lives claiming it is the complete truth without any proof
2) Most of us are familiar with it and on the forums enjoy debating in general and religion makes a good topic because a) we are familiar with it b) we are not in agreement with it

All in all like everything in this universe I reserve the right to question it as much as I like

See post #176.

Well I havn't bothered to post here before... But these stupid topics are really over the top. Atheists / Satanists / Agnostics / Whatever..... what is your obsession with trying to take apart Religion. Some people believe in it, some people don't. If you don't you shouldn't need to try and tell everyone about how other peoples beliefs are inherently wrong.

religion is the probably the best debate IMO. after all we will be dead alot longer than we will be alive. so there is some interest there dont you think?

See post #176.
Yeah I know but I figured I would rather post something that was probably closer to the truth then post 176

There are three main questions stopping me from converting to Chritsianity. If you do answer them, don't do it with 'God works in mysterious ways'.

1) Why does God not wish us to have proof of his existance?
What can he possibly get out of us believing in him that he can't get out of us being certain that he exists?

2) Why did Jesus give the church the power to forgive sins?
If I sin and repent, why do I need to have some priest tell me I'm forgiven? If I have repented I will be forgiven at the judgment. The church gathered a lot of power and money through their ability to forgive sins so why would Jesus give them that power if he knew damn well they would become corrupt?

3) With the hundreds of religions we have, what makes Christianity any more correct than Islam, Hinduism, Buddism, etc?
Since the very beginning of communication the question has been raised, "How did we get here?". In a time of such primitive knowledge of the universe, the only option of explaination was the supernatural. They used God[s] to explain fire, rain, love, human existance, etc. We have for some time been able to explain fire, rain and love(to an extent). Just because the only question left is "How did we get here, which we can't currently answer, why do we still insist on using God to explain it?

1) What would you like him to do to prove his existence? Come down and talk to you face to face? Even if he did do that, I have a feeling you would explain it away as a hallucination or a man made phenomenon and wouldn't believe still. He has at times in the past spoken to people from a physical presence on earth; they usually ended up so afraid that they fainted, or told someone else (such as Moses) to talk to him on their behalf. He's written a book to us, started his own nation on earth who were to live as his before all of us, and sent his own son to show us what he intended for us. And we neglect his word, persecute his people, and executed his son.

2) Jesus didn't give the church the power to forgive sins. We have one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus (I Timothy 2:5).

3) Christianity does not exist to explain natural phonomena. It does offer other explanations for human behavior, but that is not it's main goal either. Christianity is a revelation from God on how to have a relationship with God, not a way for man to better himself or explain the universe or work his way to heaven. Most other religions make that their goal.

I think a lot of that “needs faith to get into heaven” belief is actually just a nice way to structure your religion so that those that are members will not look too closely for their creator … keeps them happy and with an excuse not to try to prove him and fail at it

Wow, how optomistic. DId you not read anything i wrote, i dont even need to rebut what you said, i already adressed it. If this is as good as you "anti-christian" people can do, your pathetic, christianity is as secure as a vegas vault, and i can rebut anything you say.

Wow, how optomistic. DId you not read anything i wrote, i dont even need to rebut what you said, i already adressed it. If this is as good as you "anti-christian" people can do, your pathetic, christianity is as secure as a vegas vault, and i can rebut anything you say.
Sorry I did not mean for it to be a rebuttal rather something that lead off on a train of thought so no not really the best I can do at a rebuttal :p

I'm a Christian. The answer to 2) has been given several times: He didn't. The answers to 1) and 3) may be given philosophically.

"1) Why does God not wish us to have proof of his existance (sic)?"
This one is laughably simple and it has nothing to do with 'we must have faith'. We do not have proof of our own existence, or indeed of anything we seem to experience. Gravity is not proven. Gravity is a nice explanation that seems to fit what we think happens in nature. You think I am splitting hairs? Far from it. Look up "the Principle of the Uniformity of Nature" (PUN), that axiom upon which we base all of science. The so-called Occam's Razor is nothing but a heuristic, it is no law... there is no more reason to suppose that God does not exist than that he does, from a strictly logical viewpoint. Do you wish comforting experiential examples of existence? We have plenty of those. Do you wish to confine them to reproducible examples? Then you are requiring PUN, i.e., requiring that evidence for another religion be given within the bounds of your own.

"3) With the hundreds of religions we have, what makes Christianity any more correct than Islam, Hinduism, Buddism, etc?"
An excellent question. Notice, though, that again while this may call Christianity into doubt, it in no way implies that none of the religions are correct. Suppose I hold out my hands, closed, and ask that you choose one. I tell you that one hand contains a prize and the other does not. Because you cannot tell which is which, is that enough to conclude that neither hand holds a prize? The strictly logical indistinguishability of religions does not imply atheism.

<snipped all that>

*cough*bullshit*cough* Genesis 3 has adam and eve talking to god. God even walked in the garden. did they not know that they were talking to god? did moses? i find it funny that you say he cant exist without faith... you have not supported your argument. try again...

Well, true, true. But I believe that it is necessary to respect all religions too anyway, in the name of prevention aganist discrimination. Therefore I just say that I have no religion and am a freethinker rather than a atheist

So now mabye you can see that god wont just pop out because he needs faith to exist, and faith is dis-proven, and turned into knowledge when he shows himself. you see?

Im fairly sure that no one before me mentioned this, and is one of the greatest fundamentals to understand if you are a christian.

To put things into perspective, god needs faith to survive, faith is gone is god shows himself, god is proven to exist in a since, but not completely, by jesus's birth.

And christianity is true for the simple reason of faith, a concept that few religions understand is more powerful than and actual object.

i dont see it actually. all religions have faith. you have faith that your religion is true but so does any other person with thier religion.

"1) Why does God not wish us to have proof of his existance (sic)?"
... Gravity is not proven. Gravity is a nice explanation that seems to fit what we think happens in nature. ...

yes, this is why I like math more than science. Science cannot always be explained, although we can perform experiments, there is no guarantee that the same result will always be obtained, unlike maths where we have proofs :)

Originally Posted by Yavin 2

So now mabye you can see that god wont just pop out because he needs faith to exist, and faith is dis-proven, and turned into knowledge when he shows himself. you see?

Im fairly sure that no one before me mentioned this, and is one of the greatest fundamentals to understand if you are a christian.

To put things into perspective, god needs faith to survive, faith is gone is god shows himself, god is proven to exist in a since, but not completely, by jesus's birth.

And christianity is true for the simple reason of faith, a concept that few religions understand is more powerful than and actual object.

To Yavin: I'm sorry, but God does not need faith to survive. If nothing else existed, God would, whether he proves it to anyone or not, whether we believe it or not.

I echo Matosia. Yeah, Matosia.

Here are some answers to Commie Catholics three questions:
1) God does give us proof of His existence. This proof is not the kind that most people are comfortable with. Most people want scientific proof (the kind that's observable with the senses) that God is real. But the best proof of God's existence is not in the natural, observable world; it's in the spiritual world, which we cannot see. The question we need to ask is this: Is something (or someone) less real because we cannot observe it (or Him)? The answer is a resounding NO!

God proves Himself and His power in the lives of those who believe on Him. He ministers to the soul of the individual. How do I know I know God? How can I prove He is real? Well, I experience a personal relationship with Him on a daily basis. The proof I see is His working in my heart and life. That proof comes after faith in His reality, not before. Without faith, it is impossible to please God.

2) Matosia is right! Only God can forgive sins because only God is sinless. He is holy and without sin; in Him is no wrong. The Catholic Church asserts the power to forgive sins, but this power was never given to them by God. Contrary to Catholic doctrine, the Pope is a mere man, and as such, he is capable of sin. The Pope's ability to sin voids any power to forgive, regardless of how readily he asserts that power. Because of Jesus Christ's work in the Cross, we don't need to ask a priest for forgiveness; we have a direct audience with God. All we have to do is ask God to forgive, and if we are to be truly forgiven, that is all we can do--no more, no less.

3) Well, for one thing, the God of Christianity is not like the gods of other religions or faiths. My God is a loving God that never exercise his wrath unjustly. Even the bad things that happen to us are for our good, because they are sent to us from a loving God, who always gives us what we need instead of giving us what we want.

Most importantly, Christianity offers a personal relationship that is lacking in other faiths. I don't worship a god that is far off somewhere or one that is made of stone and that is impersonal; I worship the ONE TRUE GOD, who is loving and treats me as a father would his child.

Hope this helps, Commie Catholic.

Christians can't produce proof of their god, and it is an inconvenience that the only people He talked to (through a surragate, Metatron) were dead for decades before their tall tales were recorded (by people who never met the subjects of the stories) as the bible. Of course, it has been thousands of years since then, and the bible has been translated and adapted so many times since... it is hard to defend it as the inerrent word of god...

If (for argument's sake) Christianity were true, then why would god hide from his followers? He wouldn't. If the christian god were truly omnibenevolent, he wouldn't have created life as loaded game, creating the appearence of a godless universe to trick people and condemn them to eternal suffering for the undesirable trait of rationality.

If god were real, he would be smart enough (omnescient?) to answer my feeble attacks. For example;

The existence of god cannot be reconciled with the existence of evil, destruction, or calamity. Why let a tsunami indescriminatly kill hundreds of thousands of people? Either god is powerless to stop or prevent or warn people (not omnipotent) or god cannot foresee / predict disasters (not omniscient) or god is indifferent to suffering on earth (not omnibenevolent). In any case, he would not be worth worshipping.

Enough with all your bullshit please. I am Wiccan! All of you Christians need to remember that Wicca was the first religion, now I am not saying that makes it right though. If you look at every religion in the world there is always going to be some similarity between them. Look at Wicca and Christanity. Everything in Christianity was taken from a Wiccan moral, well almost everything. The whole thing with Christ is funny really...because in Wiccan (which came first) our god died and was reborn to make spring. Hello! Same damn thing! So do not say that no other religion has had a god die, because they have. Why do you people believe the bible anyways? Everyone knows that some stupid crack pot idiot wrote it because he did not like Wicca. He took everything that he liked in Wicca and made a new religion, he left out what he did not like and there you go...a new religion is born. Isn't that just amazing people?

I believe that you are referring to Paganism. Wicca wasn't around until the 1954, when Gerald Gardner published "Witchcraft Today". And although Gardner claimed to have discovered an existing Wiccan coven, many people today feel that his writings were more his own creations than true (and ancient) practices that had been handed down through generations. He claimed to have been initiated into the New Forest Coven in 1939, by Old Dorothy Clutterbuck. But further examination into this has had difficulty proving that Old Dorothy ever existed. Gardner's interests and knowledge of the occult would have given him plenty of raw material to work with. It's generally accepted that regardless of whether or not Gardner really found an existing witchcraft coven, he adulterated much of his work with Ceremonial magick concepts that appealed to him.

I'm going to guess that you're a 14 year old girl who has jumped on the Wiccan bandwagon. I don't mean to insult anybody who truly follows Wicca, or Paganism, but i'd imagine anybody who had put serious thought into their path would refrain from making unfounded, bigotted comments like yours. Have a nice life.

Why is proof of God always an issue? What's the point of proving God?

You don't believe because there's no proof, and if there was proof you wouldn't need to believe.

The funny part is, it's not even about belief.

Why is proof of God always an issue? What's the point of proving God?

You don't believe because there's no proof, and if there was proof you wouldn't need to believe.

but you would need to follow. believing does not save. look at james 2:19. the reason proof is such an issue is because it shows that god actually exists. like i said earlier, we will be dead a lot longer than we will be alive. what would be better, having faith that you will go to the afterlife, or knowing you will go to the afterlife? if god doesnt give us proof he cannot punish us for not following him, (or that would be unjust).

Science and religion don't have to be conflicting each other. They compliment each other in our understanding of the world.
Of course, I agree.

:rolleyes: sorry. what i meant is that according to the bible those who accept jesus as their lord and savior go to heaven. my guess is that just about everyone who took part in the crusades (aside from the muslims, jews, etc.) accepted jesus and went and fought in his name. they died and went to heaven even though they killed people needlesly. i'm an atheist so therefore, even if i save the world from utter destruction, i still go to hell. not fair and completely retarded.

He does have a point, you know. During the Crusades there was something called the "Offer of Indulgence" - basically that anybody who went on Crusade and killed the 'enemies of God' would be guaranteed a place in heaven.

Oh how I wish I was Catholic - I could solve the asylum problem in this country and land myself a place in heaven at the same time!

My agnosticism comes from a few issues that appear in religion...especially organized religion and particularly Chritianity, which I have had the most exposure to of the various religions that exist.

1) If God is omnipotent, he could have made the universe in any way he chose and therefore have made me in any way he chose. He chose to make me in such a way that he knew (omnicient being that he is) I would not believe in him. If he knowingly made me so that I would not believe in him and he could have made me in a different way, then my lack of faith is not my fault, it's his. If he's going judge me for that, then he's a hypocrite.

2) Why does God need any kind of organization to religion? Why do I need to have another person tell me how I should have faith? Any relationship I have with God is between him and me. Why should the church exist in any form? Why do I need someone else to interpret God's word for me? Why isn't God capable of making his will clear to me through direct means?

3) What's with the "Love Me" thing? Why is it that God has this inherent need for somebody (everybody) to love him and obey him so much so that he created a universe to facilitate an audience for himself? Sorry, but God sounds a bit needy and annoying if this is why we're all here.

4) Is it a coincidence that each form of unified diety adorns humanity with such importance in God's plan? We're such a small part of our universe, why is it that we're such a central figure in each religious depiction of the universe? Could it be that the origin of the religion isn't God-related at all but is an attempt to make ourselves feel better about our own existence within this vast universe that we are only beginning to understand?

5) Is it a coincidence that authoritarian males have come to dominate religions (organized churches, clerics, etc), reinforced their own beliefs by claiming that they represent the will of God (King James Bible, anyone?) and those males have maintained inordianate power (subserviance of women, subjugation of external relgions, etc) and riches (amazing how churches always want donations to help the poor yet adorn themselves with such spectacular decoration) over the centuries?

6) Why can't God explain himself clearly so that there aren't so many of us killing each other over interpretations of God's will? If God loves us all, why doesn't he put an end to the religious divisions that have perpetuated hatred and persecution over thousands of years? He could end so much suffering and doubt while ensuring that we understand him. He chooses not to do this and lets us meander around in ignorance and inflict suffering on one another? That's some seriously "tough love", don't ya think? Especially for an omnipotent being who could so easily fix it all.

7) Why would a child ever be made to suffer? Children are the purest definition of innocence. Infants have not sinned. Yet, many suffer. Starvation, disease, abuse. None of this need happen. God could prevent it and still achieve whatever result in the universe he wanted (he is omnipotent, supposedly). Yet he does not stop it. With this, I strongly doubt either benevolence or omnipotence. The lack of either characteristic would discount the definitions of "One True God" that I've heard of.


Until these issues are resolved, I will not believe. I realize I cannot disprove God's existence (hence my agnosticism rather than atheism), but I can not put any kind of faith in a being that cannot resolve these issues.

My agnosticism comes from a few issues that appear in religion...especially organized religion and particularly Chritianity, which I have had the most exposure to of the various religions that exist.

1) If God is omnipotent, he could have made the universe in any way he chose and therefore have made me in any way he chose. He chose to make me in such a way that he knew (omnicient being that he is) I would not believe in him. If he knowingly made me so that I would not believe in him and he could have made me in a different way, then my lack of faith is not my fault, it's his. If he's going judge me for that, then he's a hypocrite.

2) Why does God need any kind of organization to religion? Why do I need to have another person tell me how I should have faith? Any relationship I have with God is between him and me. Why should the church exist in any form? Why do I need someone else to interpret God's word for me? Why isn't God capable of making his will clear to me through direct means?

3) What's with the "Love Me" thing? Why is it that God has this inherent need for somebody (everybody) to love him and obey him so much so that he created a universe to facilitate an audience for himself? Sorry, but God sounds a bit needy and annoying if this is why we're all here.

4) Is it a coincidence that each form of unified diety adorns humanity with such importance in God's plan? We're such a small part of our universe, why is it that we're such a central figure in each religious depiction of the universe? Could it be that the origin of the religion isn't God-related at all but is an attempt to make ourselves feel better about our own existence within this vast universe that we are only beginning to understand?

5) Is it a coincidence that authoritarian males have come to dominate religions (organized churches, clerics, etc), reinforced their own beliefs by claiming that they represent the will of God (King James Bible, anyone?) and those males have maintained inordianate power (subserviance of women, subjugation of external relgions, etc) and riches (amazing how churches always want donations to help the poor yet adorn themselves with such spectacular decoration) over the centuries?

6) Why can't God explain himself clearly so that there aren't so many of us killing each other over interpretations of God's will? If God loves us all, why doesn't he put an end to the religious divisions that have perpetuated hatred and persecution over thousands of years? He could end so much suffering and doubt while ensuring that we understand him. He chooses not to do this and lets us meander around in ignorance and inflict suffering on one another? That's some seriously "tough love", don't ya think? Especially for an omnipotent being who could so easily fix it all.

7) Why would a child ever be made to suffer? Children are the purest definition of innocence. Infants have not sinned. Yet, many suffer. Starvation, disease, abuse. None of this need happen. God could prevent it and still achieve whatever result in the universe he wanted (he is omnipotent, supposedly). Yet he does not stop it. With this, I strongly doubt either benevolence or omnipotence. The lack of either characteristic would discount the definitions of "One True God" that I've heard of.


Until these issues are resolved, I will not believe. I realize I cannot disprove God's existence (hence my agnosticism rather than atheism), but I can not put any kind of faith in a being that cannot resolve these issues.

You have in fact hit the nail on the head with a lot of the issues that agnostics and atheists have defiantly thought about in the past (not to mention the logical impossibility of someone that is truth omnipotent rather then very powerful)

Defiantly well worded as well … :) better then I manage some days

but you would need to follow. believing does not save. look at james 2:19. the reason proof is such an issue is because it shows that god actually exists. like i said earlier, we will be dead a lot longer than we will be alive. what would be better, having faith that you will go to the afterlife, or knowing you will go to the afterlife? if god doesnt give us proof he cannot punish us for not following him, (or that would be unjust).
If there was proof --and we are talking some sort of objective proof, here --everyone would not need to believe because they would follow. God would be in everyone's hearts, not having to be taught. It would be a non-issue.

If there is subjective proof, then it is for the individual alone, so again it is a non-issue that others do not have this proof.

If there is no proof (objective or subjectively garnered), again it is a non-issue.

Having proof changes nothing.

Christians can't produce proof of their god, and it is an inconvenience that the only people He talked to (through a surragate, Metatron) were dead for decades before their tall tales were recorded (by people who never met the subjects of the stories) as the bible. Of course, it has been thousands of years since then, and the bible has been translated and adapted so many times since... it is hard to defend it as the inerrent word of god...

If (for argument's sake) Christianity were true, then why would god hide from his followers? He wouldn't. If the christian god were truly omnibenevolent, he wouldn't have created life as loaded game, creating the appearence of a godless universe to trick people and condemn them to eternal suffering for the undesirable trait of rationality.

If god were real, he would be smart enough (omnescient?) to answer my feeble attacks. For example;

The existence of god cannot be reconciled with the existence of evil, destruction, or calamity. Why let a tsunami indescriminatly kill hundreds of thousands of people? Either god is powerless to stop or prevent or warn people (not omnipotent) or god cannot foresee / predict disasters (not omniscient) or god is indifferent to suffering on earth (not omnibenevolent). In any case, he would not be worth worshipping.

Moses recorded his own conversations with God, as did many of the writers of the Bible.

Yes, it has been through a few translations (the big ones being Greek, then Latin, then the many versions we have in our many languages of today which all happened around the same time known as the Reformation). However, the Jews were meticulous about copying the Hebrew scriptures, treating the physical document as a holy object, so much so that they stand in its presense and if the paper or parchment became defiled in the smallest bit they copied an entirely new one. Even if you do not believe that the scriptures are as old as they say they are, parts of all but one book of the Hebrew Bible were found in the caves of Qumran, known as the Dead Sea Scrolls. One book, Isaiah, which makes very specific prophecies about Christ among other things, was found in its entirety. The scrolls are known to have been written at least 150 years before the birth of Christ.

The new testament was cannonized in the first century, when most of the men who had spoken to Christ personally (or those who knew those men personally) were still alive.

Secondly, the existence of God can be reconciled with the existence of evil. God created beings that were able to choose to follow him. That also allows the possibility that they could choose not to follow him. Several beings did just that (Lucifer, Adam and Eve) and those choices have built in consequences.

God knew from the beginning what the outcome of those choices would be, and he warned Adam and Eve about them. Adam and Eve disobeyed anyway. That set off a chain of events that leads up to things like the Tsunami and wars and so on. But that is only talking about this world. Justice will be done in the next world as God has promised.

Why should beings who know they are not anywhere near omniscient criticize another being, even if you don't believe him to be omniscient, who is a great deal closer to it than we are? I would trust him more with the future than myself.

A note about the relationship between God and disasters:

Where was everybody when God said he wanted you? Either you were:

a) not giving a damn;
b) too busy with your own life, or;
c) displaying your disbelief in Him on the NS General Forum

You complain that God has left you when disaster strikes, but in fact, you were never WITH God when He was there for you.

My agnosticism comes from a few issues that appear in religion...especially organized religion and particularly Chritianity, which I have had the most exposure to of the various religions that exist.

1) If God is omnipotent, he could have made the universe in any way he chose and therefore have made me in any way he chose. He chose to make me in such a way that he knew (omnicient being that he is) I would not believe in him. If he knowingly made me so that I would not believe in him and he could have made me in a different way, then my lack of faith is not my fault, it's his. If he's going judge me for that, then he's a hypocrite.



Until these issues are resolved, I will not believe. I realize I cannot disprove God's existence (hence my agnosticism rather than atheism), but I can not put any kind of faith in a being that cannot resolve these issues.

Wow, you wrote quite a lot, so much, it's hard to know what to think about first. Firstly, good questions, and obviously some thought going into it.

Why did God make you with the ability of not believing in Him, especially when He knew that you wouldn't believe in Him?? I guess that is the question....am I right?
So, when you get to stand before Him, on judgement day, before the great white throne, surrounded by millions of witnesses, countless numbers of people who have believed in Him and loved Him, and He asks you why you didn't believe in Him, and allow Him a chance to develop a friendship with Him, you are going to point your finger at Him and say, 'But God, this is all your fault! Why did you make me this way? Why did you give me the choice to believe? You should have done it better. You are a hypocrite!!' I reckon you will need a better agument than that.

The fact that there are many people who do love and believe in God makes your point .......dangerous. You are the one with the choice. It's what you do with it that counts, and your choice will be judged by a God who knows WHY you made your choice.

Wow, you wrote quite a lot, so much, it's hard to know what to think about first. Firstly, good questions, and obviously some thought going into it.

Why did God make you with the ability of not believing in Him, especially when He knew that you wouldn't believe in Him?? I guess that is the question....am I right?
So, when you get to stand before Him, on judgement day, before the great white throne, surrounded by millions of witnesses, countless numbers of people who have believed in Him and loved Him, and He asks you why you didn't believe in Him, and allow Him a chance to develop a friendship with Him, you are going to point your finger at Him and say, 'But God, this is all your fault! Why did you make me this way? Why did you give me the choice to believe? You should have done it better. You are a hypocrite!!' I reckon you will need a better agument than that.

The fact that there are many people who do love and believe in God makes your point .......dangerous. You are the one with the choice. It's what you do with it that counts, and your choice will be judged by a God who knows WHY you made your choice.
That is not the question the question is why did god being all knowing create me without the ability to truly believe in him and then judge me based on some trait he knew is completely against my nature (to the point that “believing” in him is no longer a choice … the closest I could get is faking it)
He is either not a just god or just does not give a damn

If there was proof --and we are talking some sort of objective proof, here --everyone would not need to believe because they would follow. God would be in everyone's hearts, not having to be taught. It would be a non-issue.

If there is subjective proof, then it is for the individual alone, so again it is a non-issue that others do not have this proof.

If there is no proof (objective or subjectively garnered), again it is a non-issue.

Having proof changes nothing.

i disagree with you on that. why would proof make us follow god? i dont think it would. proof would simply give us the chance to make a dicision to follow or not. there would be no more "guessing." if there was some sort of proof, we would know which religion is right, ect. then with that knowledge, we could finally make a dicision. i think proof is very important and the lack of proof shows (to me) that god is either not real, or is not what we think.

A note about asking God to prove Himself:

God has already proven Himself - through the wondrous feat of creating the Earth and displaying justice and love through his disciples and followers. That is all the evidence you will get. Take it or leave it (the importance of faith). There will not be anymore wondrous feats, because the greatest has been done: God came down Himself to die for our sins. There is no reason at all to ask for more miracles and evidence. It could be argued that evolution is a tactic by the Devil to deceive the masses. If that was true, then you are put in a dangerous position, no?

Wow, you wrote quite a lot, so much, it's hard to know what to think about first. Firstly, good questions, and obviously some thought going into it.

Why did God make you with the ability of not believing in Him, especially when He knew that you wouldn't believe in Him?? I guess that is the question....am I right?
So, when you get to stand before Him, on judgement day, before the great white throne, surrounded by millions of witnesses, countless numbers of people who have believed in Him and loved Him, and He asks you why you didn't believe in Him, and allow Him a chance to develop a friendship with Him, you are going to point your finger at Him and say, 'But God, this is all your fault! Why did you make me this way? Why did you give me the choice to believe? You should have done it better. You are a hypocrite!!' I reckon you will need a better agument than that.

The fact that there are many people who do love and believe in God makes your point .......dangerous. You are the one with the choice. It's what you do with it that counts, and your choice will be judged by a God who knows WHY you made your choice.

Stating that I shouldn't disbelieve because if I do then it may turn out badly for me does nothing to prove your point. The fact that many others believe doesn't prove anything either. There were plenty of people who believed that Apollo and Zeus existed, but we now relegate that belief to ignorance.

My point still stands - How can I be judged for being exactly what God made me to be? I'm fulfilling God's will by being exactly what he made me. Therefore, I should not be held accountable by him for being what I am.

I'll ground the issue in a more tangible frame of reference...If you teach your child to believe in Santa Claus, then would you judge your child to be a bit dimwitted for having that belief?




A quote that I've always liked...
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
-- Stephen Roberts

A note about asking God to prove Himself:

God has already proven Himself - through the wondrous feat of creating the Earth and displaying justice and love through his disciples and followers. That is all the evidence you will get. Take it or leave it (the importance of faith). There will not be anymore wondrous feats, because the greatest has been done: God came down Himself to die for our sins. There is no reason at all to ask for more miracles and evidence. It could be argued that evolution is a tactic by the Devil to deceive the masses. If that was true, then you are put in a dangerous position, no?

all of that comes from a book written by man. how do we know it is the 'word of god?' it goes back to faith. and this faith is blind in my opinion. the bible is originally hebrew/aramaic and greek, which has been translated into hundreds of different ways, containing hundreds of symbols and metaphors that we fallible humans can not fully grasp. i dont see how god could give us a book that says "trust me" and expect us to be wooed.(sp?)

That is not the question the question is why did god being all knowing create me without the ability to truly believe in him and then judge me based on some trait he knew is completely against my nature (to the point that “believing” in him is no longer a choice … the closest I could get is faking it)
He is either not a just god or just does not give a damn

I haven't been here long, so I haven't read all that you may have written previously....I apologize for not understanding your previous points (if you have made any)

So you are saying that you don't have the ability to believe in God.....something like that......that God made you, but never put the 'believing gene' in you, but then judges you for not believing in Him.

I'm sure God would agree with both of us that 'faking' a belief is far worse than an honest unbelief. At least it's written so several places in the Scriptures that He gets quite upset with lip service believers.

But I disagree with you if you are saying that you dont have the ability for a genuine faith. My basis for disagreeing is that if God made you, He certainly put in you an ability to believe. Perhaps you don't have any appetite for believing in Him in the same way that you may have seen others present their belief. Perhaps you haven't found your way to believe. Or perhaps you have closed the door of your heart with a firmness that won't allow any possibility of belief. He knocks only gently, in my experience.

Upward Thrust: What exactly do you mean by you don't have the ability to believe in him? I'm not trying to sound flippant; I'm really curious.

I have read a lot of odd things in my life, and I've come to believe that human beings can and will believe just about anything.

I understand you don't want to fake belief, and that is a noble thing. There are times of doubt even among the most devout Christians. The relationship with Christ is not thankfully based out our ability to believe, or the strength or size of our faith. It is based on his actions on our behalf, because he knows we are weak and feeble and fickle creatures.

His original intent was not for us to not believe in him. The entrance of sin into the world has altered his original plan. (Not that he was prepared or expecting it, but it was not the 'ideal' if you want to put it that way. Though I hesistate to say even that, since it implies that the first plan would have been better in some way than the current one. This is the best of possible worlds.) Hence there are many who feel that they cannot believe, but this is not true. You can, and you choose not to. Do not blame him for your choice.

I haven't been here long, so I haven't read all that you may have written previously....I apologize for not understanding your previous points (if you have made any)

So you are saying that you don't have the ability to believe in God.....something like that......that God made you, but never put the 'believing gene' in you, but then judges you for not believing in Him.

I'm sure God would agree with both of us that 'faking' a belief is far worse than an honest unbelief. At least it's written so several places in the Scriptures that He gets quite upset with lip service believers.

But I disagree with you if you are saying that you dont have the ability for a genuine faith. My basis for disagreeing is that if God made you, He certainly put in you an ability to believe. Perhaps you don't have any appetite for believing in Him in the same way that you may have seen others present their belief. Perhaps you haven't found your way to believe. Or perhaps you have closed the door of your heart with a firmness that won't allow any possibility of belief. He knocks only gently, in my experience.

I have tried ... and failed either it is not part of me or I havent found the right religion

I know for sure I am compleatly incapable in believing in christianity or most organized religions

There is a possibility with diesm but so far have not been able to

A note about asking God to prove Himself:

God has already proven Himself - through the wondrous feat of creating the Earth and displaying justice and love through his disciples and followers. That is all the evidence you will get. Take it or leave it (the importance of faith). There will not be anymore wondrous feats, because the greatest has been done: God came down Himself to die for our sins. There is no reason at all to ask for more miracles and evidence. It could be argued that evolution is a tactic by the Devil to deceive the masses. If that was true, then you are put in a dangerous position, no?
By your logic, I could cite the following and it holds equal validity:

"Ralph created the universe. The evidence for this is that the universe exists. Ralph has given part of himself for me and my loved ones. Ralph will continue to give of himself for me."

Ralph is a head of lettuce in my fridge. I had a nice little salad with a rasberry-walunt vinagrette dressing as part of my dinner last night.

Upward Thrust: What exactly do you mean by you don't have the ability to believe in him? I'm not trying to sound flippant; I'm really curious.

I have read a lot of odd things in my life, and I've come to believe that human beings can and will believe just about anything.

I understand you don't want to fake belief, and that is a noble thing. There are times of doubt even among the most devout Christians. The relationship with Christ is not thankfully based out our ability to believe, or the strength or size of our faith. It is based on his actions on our behalf, because he knows we are weak and feeble and fickle creatures.

His original intent was not for us to not believe in him. The entrance of sin into the world has altered his original plan. (Not that he was prepared or expecting it, but it was not the 'ideal' if you want to put it that way. Though I hesistate to say even that, since it implies that the first plan would have been better in some way than the current one. This is the best of possible worlds.) Hence there are many who feel that they cannot believe, but this is not true. You can, and you choose not to. Do not blame him for your choice.

If salvation is put in to counterbalance our entrance to sin why is it based on faith rather then works (proving that you are not following sinful ways)

By Christianities standards that is

And no I do not have the ability to … specially in Christianity my past has too much conflict with Christianity and Catholicism specifically

By your logic, I could cite the following and it holds equal validity:

"Ralph created the universe. The evidence for this is that the universe exists. Ralph has given part of himself for me and my loved ones. Ralph will continue to give of himself for me."

Ralph is a head of lettuce in my fridge. I had a nice little salad with a rasberry-walunt vinagrette dressing as part of my dinner last night.

Did Ralph write a book to teach you how to live? Did Ralph claim himself to be a god? Is Ralph sentient?

There is, indeed, a fine line between religion and insanity, and the constant tightroping is essential. It's unsettling, yes, but it's necessary to keep on the right path.

To paraphrase:
"God should have destroyed my ability to live my own life by making me incapable of making my own decisions! Because he allows me to make my own choices he is an evil hypocrite!"
:rolleyes:

Stating that I shouldn't disbelieve because if I do then it may turn out badly for me does nothing to prove your point. The fact that many others believe doesn't prove anything either. There were plenty of people who believed that Apollo and Zeus existed, but we now relegate that belief to ignorance.

My point still stands - How can I be judged for being exactly what God made me to be? I'm fulfilling God's will by being exactly what he made me. Therefore, I should not be held accountable by him for being what I am.

I'll ground the issue in a more tangible frame of reference...If you teach your child to believe in Santa Claus, then would you judge your child to be a bit dimwitted for having that belief?




A quote that I've always liked...
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
-- Stephen Roberts

Sorry, that was not my point.....that things won't go well for you if you don't believe.
I guess that is probably something that gets said a lot anyway, so it's no wonder that that is what you thought I meant.
I meant that an argument that says it's God's fault that I don't believe in Him won't look very good on Judgement Day, particularly if there are millions of other people who DID believe in Him. The belief of the believers is 'proof' of some kind that belief is possible, and the fact that there are so many believers is consistent with that claim that God made everyone with the ability to believe in Him.

Did Ralph write a book to teach you how to live? Did Ralph claim himself to be a god? Is Ralph sentient?

There is, indeed, a fine line between religion and insanity, and the constant tightroping is essential. It's unsettling, yes, but it's necessary to keep on the right path.
Nope he inspired a whole bunch of writers to make a semi contradictory and sometimes confusing (message) book that taught me first one way to live and then another. He did not have to claim he is god you just have to take it on faith
And yes he is sentient he is just hiding it from us because if he gave us proof we wouldent have faith

Why doesn't God prove his existence?

It's because he enjoys watching us interact and behave away from his constant guidance. Creation is a bit of a game to him; he sits back and watches all of the little interactions between people without necessarily doing anything about it. If he wants to spice things up a bit, he messes with peoples' heads, causes tidal waves, genocidal wars and whatnot.

He's like the sort of person that watches Fear Factor, really. I mean, the whole Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil thing, leading the Israelites through the desert for Forty years and throwing them in the one place in the Middle East without any Oil, splitting one perfectly good descendance of Abraham into 2 sects of Islam and Judaism, throwing up another one to disagree with both of them (Christianity), letting Satan have 1000 years of rule in Revelations, the whole Papacy thing...

God is making the most of his little pet project; poking and prying creation to see how it reacts. And not always in a benevolent (spelling?) way. I mean, how else do you account for an all-powerful being creating the world we see ourselves in now?


There's one explanation I'm sure you athiests would smile amusedly at (For those of you now enraged, that wasn't my personal belief, though I hope you take this time to learn to deal with these sorts of ideas). Another, somewhat less cynical one, could be that he Can't (Or, rather, it can't, given the inherent sexual identity of the original pronoun. Gotta love political Correctness). The idea of God as a conscious individual could very easily be a misconstruation by his/its "followers" who aren't fully aware of the object of their worship and twist it conceptually to suit their own viewpoints. What if "God" is not some super-planar King type but rather a vaguely general consciousness that exists both simultaneously independent of physical form and all-encompassing?

Let's try a little analogy. It's a little long, so feel free to jump on a few paragraphs. I don't know if this was popular outside of my tiny corner of the world, but a while back, we had a series of childrens' books about how the human body functions where each body cell was given a personification. Assuming it was capable of basic reasoning, how would you go about explaining to a (presumably communicatable) red blood cell the idea of a human being?

As far as we can tell, areas of the brain work together, releasing and manipulating chemicals that provide someone with awareness, empathy, logical progression, memory and so forth; this then works alongside the body's nervous system and other life-sustaining organs to create sentient life. How do you explain that to the cell? I'm sure it would be incredibly difficult to get it to shift its perspective from itself and the role it plays in moving gases around the body to thinking about what repercussions this might have.

Similarly, humans generally don't consiously control their own circulatory system, so the cell would be entirely justified in being sceptical on the validity on this claim. On the other hand, you as a person are completely incapable of governing your blood cells using this consciousness. The only way you might possibly explain it is by showing it the greater picture; a feat completely beyond the comprehension of the cell (never mind the fact that it dies shortly after your remove it from the blood stream).

This is more getting into an Eastern type of theology; the idea that God exists not through faith or independently of the universe, but through life. Each person has built into them a fundamental idea that says "There is something greater than this" (referring to the trawl of everyday life). The reason for this could well be that through their very existence, the human race (and other life) sustains a greater consciousness.


Or, alternatively, it could be mass hysteria.

:p


In any case, it's foolish to assume that the Christian view of God is the only possible one and to use your disagreement with their idea to proclaim yourself as an out-and-out athiest. Theism extends beyond the idea of a God very much like ourself sitting on a plane above ours and dictating exactly how things are to unfold. It looks at the possibility of a consciousness above our own. Perhaps that's somewhat more credible. If it's not, then you're entirely justified in accepting the athiest label. But don't go calling yourself one just because you disagree with the christians

<*...snip*...>
His original intent was not for us to not believe in him. The entrance of sin into the world has altered his original plan. (Not that he was prepared or expecting it, but it was not the 'ideal' if you want to put it that way. Though I hesistate to say even that, since it implies that the first plan would have been better in some way than the current one. This is the best of possible worlds.) Hence there are many who feel that they cannot believe, but this is not true. You can, and you choose not to. Do not blame him for your choice.
Well, this does come across as a bit off kilter, IMO. If God's plan gets altered from God's ideal, then God's craftmanship in creating the universe isn't exactly ideal. That would seem to countermand both omnipotence (God couldn't keep to his plan) and his ominisience (God didn't create a plan that took this deviation into account).

I don't think you meant to come across the way I'm reading you, though. It does, however, highlight the logical incompatibility of God's omniscience/omnipotence and man's "free will". God created us knowing what we'd do and chosing to make us, anyway, in that fashion. With that, he chose everything we'd every do, say, think or believe. That removes any possibility of free will.

i disagree with you on that. why would proof make us follow god? i dont think it would. proof would simply give us the chance to make a dicision to follow or not. there would be no more "guessing." if there was some sort of proof, we would know which religion is right, ect. then with that knowledge, we could finally make a dicision. i think proof is very important and the lack of proof shows (to me) that god is either not real, or is not what we think.
Because God exists in our hearts. That's why there's no proof: as you say, we have a choice to follow.

By your logic, I could cite the following and it holds equal validity:

"Ralph created the universe. The evidence for this is that the universe exists. Ralph has given part of himself for me and my loved ones. Ralph will continue to give of himself for me."

Ralph is a head of lettuce in my fridge. I had a nice little salad with a rasberry-walunt vinagrette dressing as part of my dinner last night.

Ok, let's continue with that then.

I could go show you the physical origin of Ralph. Ralph cannot have created the universe because the universe had to exist before Ralph for Raplh to have grown as a head of lettuce in a garden or farm somewhere.

Ralph may have given part of himself for you and your loved ones, but he cannot continue to do this for eternity, since he is a finite head of lettuce.

Perhaps too many Christians do leave the argument at that, and this is to our shame. The evidence for God creating the universe is not that the universe exists (no more than the evidence for evolution is that since there is no God, and the universe exists, we had to get here somehow). The arguments tend to go back and forth a lot as far as scientific patterns that can be supportive of one theory or the other, but really, that is all science can do. No one was there when the universe began, and no experiment can definitively prove what happened then.

So this is where it gets sticky. The only evidences then are philisophical. Here's a sample argument for you:

I believe God created the universe. The universe exists. God says he created it. I believe God.

As opposed to:

I believe evolution brought the universe into existence. The universe exists. Sceince says evolution brought the universe into existence. I believe science.

Nope he inspired a whole bunch of writers to make a semi contradictory and sometimes confusing (message) book that taught me first one way to live and then another. He did not have to claim he is god you just have to take it on faith
And yes he is sentient he is just hiding it from us because if he gave us proof we wouldent have faith

Well, if Ralph did do whatever the Christian God did, then you have your god.

Nope he inspired a whole bunch of writers to make a semi contradictory and sometimes confusing (message) book that taught me first one way to live and then another. He did not have to claim he is god you just have to take it on faith
And yes he is sentient he is just hiding it from us because if he gave us proof we wouldent have faith

yeah and its the bible itself (the proof of god) that i dont beleive in it to begin with.

quote jesus religion-

The perfect God has decided to reveal His wishes in this imperfect work, written in the imperfect language of imperfect men, translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, and related by imperfect men. No two men will ever agree what this perfect word of God is supposed to mean, since much of it is either self-contradictory, or obscured by enigmatic symbols. And yet, the perfect God expects us imperfect humans to understand this paradoxical riddle using the imperfect minds with which He has equipped us. Surely, the all-wise and all-powerful God would have known that it would have been better to reveal His perfect will directly to each of us, rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man.

Ok, let's continue with that then.

I could go show you the physical origin of Ralph. Ralph cannot have created the universe because the universe had to exist before Ralph for Raplh to have grown as a head of lettuce in a garden or farm somewhere.

Ralph may have given part of himself for you and your loved ones, but he cannot continue to do this for eternity, since he is a finite head of lettuce.

Perhaps too many Christians do leave the argument at that, and this is to our shame. The evidence for God creating the universe is not that the universe exists (no more than the evidence for evolution is that since there is no God, and the universe exists, we had to get here somehow). The arguments tend to go back and forth a lot as far as scientific patterns that can be supportive of one theory or the other, but really, that is all science can do. No one was there when the universe began, and no experiment can definitively prove what happened then.

So this is where it gets sticky. The only evidences then are philisophical. Here's a sample argument for you:

I believe God created the universe. The universe exists. God says he created it. I believe God.

As opposed to:

I believe evolution brought the universe into existence. The universe exists. Sceince says evolution brought the universe into existence. I believe science.

Who said he had to be grown maybe he is just god incarnate … we have no proof before the fridge so it is entirely possible

You have to have faith that Ralph is ever lasting he has been and always will be


(btw)Evolution has NOTHING to do with creation of the universe whatsoever

If salvation is put in to counterbalance our entrance to sin why is it based on faith rather then works (proving that you are not following sinful ways)

By Christianities standards that is

And no I do not have the ability to … specially in Christianity my past has too much conflict with Christianity and Catholicism specifically

Because if it were left up to our works everyone would fail, and no one would acheive salvation. One must be perfect to be acceptable to God. No human has been capable of perfection since the fall. There should be a pattern of turning away from sin, but it is not the same as perfection, and it is brought about by God's help. So really, you are choosing to refuse God's help in following him.

I'm sorry that you have had conflicts with religious people. But that should not affect your relationship to God. People will always be a disappointment.

Did Ralph write a book to teach you how to live? Did Ralph claim himself to be a god? Is Ralph sentient?

There is, indeed, a fine line between religion and insanity, and the constant tightroping is essential. It's unsettling, yes, but it's necessary to keep on the right path.
Lots of sentient people have written lots of books. It does not make them God.

I don't see religion as insane, or even close to it. I just don't see how it can be accepted as an axiom based on self-reinforcing arguments...

The Bible says God exists, is wonderful and wants certain things.
God wrote the Bible and gave it to us so we could understand him, because he loves us.

BTW...Here's the King James version of God's word...Now believe as it tells you.

Because if it were left up to our works everyone would fail, and no one would acheive salvation. One must be perfect to be acceptable to God. No human has been capable of perfection since the fall. There should be a pattern of turning away from sin, but it is not the same as perfection, and it is brought about by God's help. So really, you are choosing to refuse God's help in following him.

I'm sorry that you have had conflicts with religious people. But that should not affect your relationship to God. People will always be a disappointment.
I did not say perfection I just said salvation by works

And that does affect my relationship it changed who I am and my ability to believe (at least in any organized religion)

If salvation is put in to counterbalance our entrance to sin why is it based on faith rather then works (proving that you are not following sinful ways)

By Christianities standards that is

And no I do not have the ability to … specially in Christianity my past has too much conflict with Christianity and Catholicism specifically

Faith is better than works, because the object of the faith is Jesus, the only perfect human. Based on His innocence, we are accepted as perfect. Do you understand this about Christ's teachings?? The beattitudes. We have to be perfect, if we want to go to heaven and be with God in His glory. We have no hope of making it through our works, because, even if they are good, they are not perfect, and that is what God is.....absolutely perfect. So our only chance is if He comes along, takes away all our inperfections, and gives us a clean slate. All we have to do in return is accept that incredible gift, i.e., believe.

So you state that your past conflicts with organised Christianity has put you off Christianity. Truly, that is one story that is repeated again and again, and no doubt those people will pay dearly for turning people away from the Truth. What a tragedy for all involved! However, when you get before the Great White Throne, your argument will sound something like....'But look here, God, I just couldn't believe in you.....you see, there were these nasty people who were very unkind to me, and because they said they believed in you......I just couldn't accept that you were real.'
With all respect, that argument wouldn't hold up in a court of law, much less God's court of perfect justice.

Because God exists in our hearts. That's why there's no proof: as you say, we have a choice to follow.

but how could we make a choice when we are so in the dark. its like being blindfolded in a room with innumerable doors and then told to pic one. the right choice (1 door) leads to heaven and the rest lead to eternal suffering. god existing in our hearts is not enough to find the right door. see what i mean?

Well, this does come across as a bit off kilter, IMO. If God's plan gets altered from God's ideal, then God's craftmanship in creating the universe isn't exactly ideal. That would seem to countermand both omnipotence (God couldn't keep to his plan) and his ominisience (God didn't create a plan that took this deviation into account).

I don't think you meant to come across the way I'm reading you, though. It does, however, highlight the logical incompatibility of God's omniscience/omnipotence and man's "free will". God created us knowing what we'd do and chosing to make us, anyway, in that fashion. With that, he chose everything we'd every do, say, think or believe. That removes any possibility of free will.

You've found probably the biggest disagreement among Christians themselves: free will vs. God's sovereignty. Aka Arminianism vs. Calvinism. It's a big ugly argument. Here's what I usually say to people trying to make me pick one side or the other.

It's an issue of time. We are finite beings that exist within time. We think of things as past, present, or future, and these things cannot overlap.

God is an infinite being that exists outside of time. He thinks of things (I would suppose, because I've only ever existed in time) as constantly present.

The arguments Christians have over this involves salvation. Did God call that person to salvation, or did the person choose to be saved? Well, inside of time, in our minds, there is a time when we were not saved, a time when we got saved, and a time when we are saved. To us, we make a choice to get saved. To God, we are saved. He differentiates between who is saved and who is not. So the answer is yes.

Same thing with plans. To us he had one plan first, and then we messed it up, so he came up with another plan. To him, that was the plan all along.

Sorry, that was not my point.....that things won't go well for you if you don't believe.
I guess that is probably something that gets said a lot anyway, so it's no wonder that that is what you thought I meant.
I meant that an argument that says it's God's fault that I don't believe in Him won't look very good on Judgement Day, particularly if there are millions of other people who DID believe in Him. The belief of the believers is 'proof' of some kind that belief is possible, and the fact that there are so many believers is consistent with that claim that God made everyone with the ability to believe in Him.
Oh, well I don't disagree with you that belief is possible. It most certainly is...and I used to believe. However, God made me in such a way that I would eventually not believe and he knew that I would not. For some reason or another, he wanted me to not believe and therefore made me this way. I'm okay with that. Really, I am. I just don't think he'll judge me for it.

And I realize the terseness of my statements comes off as my blaming God for things. The reality is, I don't. I don't believe he exists. Can't prove it, but I don't think he does.

And, even if he does, I don't think he'd judge me negatively for being what he created me to be. I'm fulfilling some role that he designed. And I don't think that a benevolent God, if he does exist, would punish me for fulfilling the role he designed. I don't blame him nor do I bear ill will toward him. I just don't fear judgement as cited by so many Christians.

Faith is better than works, because the object of the faith is Jesus, the only perfect human. Based on His innocence, we are accepted as perfect. Do you understand this about Christ's teachings?? The beattitudes. We have to be perfect, if we want to go to heaven and be with God in His glory. We have no hope of making it through our works, because, even if they are good, they are not perfect, and that is what God is.....absolutely perfect. So our only chance is if He comes along, takes away all our inperfections, and gives us a clean slate. All we have to do in return is accept that incredible gift, i.e., believe.

So you state that your past conflicts with organised Christianity has put you off Christianity. Truly, that is one story that is repeated again and again, and no doubt those people will pay dearly for turning people away from the Truth. What a tragedy for all involved! However, when you get before the Great White Throne, your argument will sound something like....'But look here, God, I just couldn't believe in you.....you see, there were these nasty people who were very unkind to me, and because they said they believed in you......I just couldn't accept that you were real.'
With all respect, that argument wouldn't hold up in a court of law, much less God's court of perfect justice.

It went way beyond some peoples opinion or an argument with a Christian that turned me off to the religion
(why do I seem to end up bringing this up lately)

Well lets just put it this way I had one of “those” priests for 3 years (in the early 90’s) that the organization has been covering for sense 1970
If you don’t understand how something that traumatic in someone under age 10 can change your whole perspective on life farther then a lifetime of therapy can change back you obviously have not dealt with abuse survivors before

(Don’t bother with the “I’m sorry” its fine its not your or any of the majority of Christians fault that I know but being sorry does not change my mental state)

But I have no belief in the organization nor its ability to tell me how to believe in a god I lost my actual faith in god years after the loss of faith in the organizations ability to teach what he would truly be about

Who said he had to be grown maybe he is just god incarnate … we have no proof before the fridge so it is entirely possible

You have to have faith that Ralph is ever lasting he has been and always will be


(btw)Evolution has NOTHING to do with creation of the universe whatsoever

Sorry about the evolution thing. I have a bad habit of having that refer to the opposite of creationism, and it's not, you're right. The Big Bang then, or one of the other labels for the origin of the universe. Is there a generic term for that?

Back to Ralph: now you're just being silly. (I know, you're trying to say that it's the same as us being silly and saying you just need to believe, I'm getting the picture.) I have grown heads of lettuce myself. I have seen them grown, and I know that generally that is where they come from.

I have never seen (physically) my God. But I know him as a person. I have never known another person like him. I have studied about other gods and religions, and this one is different.

Oh, well I don't disagree with you that belief is possible. It most certainly is...and I used to believe. However, God made me in such a way that I would eventually not believe and he knew that I would not. For some reason or another, he wanted me to not believe and therefore made me this way. I'm okay with that. Really, I am. I just don't think he'll judge me for it.

And I realize the terseness of my statements comes off as my blaming God for things. The reality is, I don't. I don't believe he exists. Can't prove it, but I don't think he does.

And, even if he does, I don't think he'd judge me negatively for being what he created me to be. I'm fulfilling some role that he designed. And I don't think that a benevolent God, if he does exist, would punish me for fulfilling the role he designed. I don't blame him nor do I bear ill will toward him. I just don't fear judgement as cited by so many Christians.

Exactly if there is a benevolent god I fit somewhere in his known plan … by being myself I am fulfilling all he knew I would be

but how could we make a choice when we are so in the dark. its like being blindfolded in a room with innumerable doors and then told to pic one. the right choice (1 door) leads to heaven and the rest lead to eternal suffering. god existing in our hearts is not enough to find the right door. see what i mean?
I can understand your being confused with information overload and the conflicting messages vying for supremecy. The best recommendation I can make is to explore the mythology of religions as an academic subject. The study allowed me to cut through all the tangle and brought forth a clear, consistent message. God existing in our hearts is precisely enough, IMO.

Some have been commenting about how Christians are not reading the evolution theories correctly. But judging by some of the replies, some non-Christians haven't been reading too much of the Bible either.

We're both misinformed greatly..

With that note, I'd better love you and leave you and go to bed...

I'm not going to get into the "Is there or isn't there?" argument, but I did want to throw something into this. The original post refers to atheism and Christianity as if those two things are the the only two choices. So often, I have friends tell me they don't believe in God and then go on a tirade about the Catholic church. Just because you don't agree with Christianity's interpretation of religion, why does that automatically throw one into the atheist category. Personally, I'm not a member of any Christian denomination because I disagree with the way they work, but that doesn't mean I've given up on spirituality. Okay, stowing the soap box for now, but I wanted to point out people who accept atheism because they disagree with one religion are just as ignorant as those who blindly accept whatever faith is around them.

I can understand your being confused with information overload and the conflicting messages vying for supremecy. The best recommendation I can make is to explore the mythology of religions as an academic subject. The study allowed me to cut through all the tangle and brought forth a clear, consistent message. God existing in our hearts is precisely enough, IMO.

exaclty what im doing. one of my majors is religious studies. the more i study religion the more i move away from it. i just want the truth. im tired of being in the dark and told just to trust or have faith.

Some have been commenting about how Christians are not reading the evolution theories correctly. But judging by some of the replies, some non-Christians haven't been reading too much of the Bible either.

We're both misinformed greatly..

With that note, I'd better love you and leave you and go to bed...
Though a lot of us have over and over the problem is the bible is considerably more ambiguous then evolutionary theory
You have on interpretation I have another, who is right?

I'm not going to get into the "Is there or isn't there?" argument, but I did want to throw something into this. The original post refers to atheism and Christianity as if those two things are the the only two choices. So often, I have friends tell me they don't believe in God and then go on a tirade about the Catholic church. Just because you don't agree with Christianity's interpretation of religion, why does that automatically throw one into the atheist category. Personally, I'm not a member of any Christian denomination because I disagree with the way they work, but that doesn't mean I've given up on spirituality. Okay, stowing the soap box for now, but I wanted to point out people who accept atheism because they disagree with one religion are just as ignorant as those who blindly accept whatever faith is around them.

's similar to what I said a few pages ago. (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8895762&postcount=218)

Very reasonable at that. Which is probably why you won't get many responses. Nobody has any fun debating with someone whose arguments are well thought through.

*Rolls eyes*

I did not say perfection I just said salvation by works

And that does affect my relationship it changed who I am and my ability to believe (at least in any organized religion)

I know *you* didn't say perfection. Within Christianity though, to attain salvation by works one would have to be perfect. (Christ taught this to his followers, they would need to be more righteous than the Pharisees.)

Do you mean then that you would be more willing to believe a salvation by works than one by faith?

I know *you* didn't say perfection. Within Christianity though, to attain salvation by works one would have to be perfect. (Christ taught this to his followers, they would need to be more righteous than the Pharisees.)

Do you mean then that you would be more willing to believe a salvation by works than one by faith?
No not really but it defiantly would seem more just and fair by my standards (that is if he is truly an all loving god he should value love and compassion in his followers over if they happened to have picked the correct religion (or even the correct interpretation of one faith) )

The arguments Christians have over this involves salvation. Did God call that person to salvation, or did the person choose to be saved? Well, inside of time, in our minds, there is a time when we were not saved, a time when we got saved, and a time when we are saved. To us, we make a choice to get saved. To God, we are saved. He differentiates between who is saved and who is not. So the answer is yes.
This would seem to support the notion that God has mad the differentiation...i.e. the choice. He's designed the plan and put it forth. I'm just part of it. Within it. Unable to fully cognate on the whole thing or even fully comprehend my own place within it. I'm just here...part of God's plan. Doing....exactly what God planned. Believing...exactly as God planned.

It went way beyond some peoples opinion or an argument with a Christian that turned me off to the religion
(why do I seem to end up bringing this up lately)

Well lets just put it this way I had one of “those” priests for 3 years (in the early 90’s) that the organization has been covering for sense 1970
If you don’t understand how something that traumatic in someone under age 10 can change your whole perspective on life farther then a lifetime of therapy can change back you obviously have not dealt with abuse survivors before

(Don’t bother with the “I’m sorry” its fine its not your or any of the majority of Christians fault that I know but being sorry does not change my mental state)

But I have no belief in the organization nor its ability to tell me how to believe in a god I lost my actual faith in god years after the loss of faith in the organizations ability to teach what he would truly be about

I know something of abuse also, but for some reason, it never turned me away from God. The same can be said of several other people that I personally know. Do you think that it is logical to turn away from God because you have suffered? Perhaps you have other reasons for this, but childhood abuse, at the hands of a member of organised religion is not a good reason for trashing God, in my opinion. I would even go as far as saying that it's not a good enough reason for trashing that particular brand of organised religion. (I am not a member of any organised religion, though I prefer going to a church that obviously loves Jesus.)
I suspect that there is more than your childnood suffering that caused you to turn away from what you were once taught. No doubt, your suffering is/was great, and God understands that. He is a very kind and loving God, after all. But I wonder, what have you gained by turning away from Him?

Oh, well I don't disagree with you that belief is possible. It most certainly is...and I used to believe. However, God made me in such a way that I would eventually not believe and he knew that I would not. For some reason or another, he wanted me to not believe and therefore made me this way. I'm okay with that. Really, I am. I just don't think he'll judge me for it.

And I realize the terseness of my statements comes off as my blaming God for things. The reality is, I don't. I don't believe he exists. Can't prove it, but I don't think he does.

And, even if he does, I don't think he'd judge me negatively for being what he created me to be. I'm fulfilling some role that he designed. And I don't think that a benevolent God, if he does exist, would punish me for fulfilling the role he designed. I don't blame him nor do I bear ill will toward him. I just don't fear judgement as cited by so many Christians.

There is more to it than that. This isn't just "well he knew I wouldn't believe he existed so he can't punish me for being how he made me." He did not make you to be a sinner.

We have been talking about this as though it were a polite choice and we can live our lives fine either way.

But all of us, *all* of us, regardless of what we believe or why, are sinners. That means rebels, people who have willingly spit in God's face, called him a liar, and said, no thanks I'll run my own life. That is what he condemns us for, not our lack of faith or ability to believe.

exaclty what im doing. one of my majors is religious studies. the more i study religion the more i move away from it. i just want the truth. im tired of being in the dark and told just to trust or have faith.
I don't think religious studies as a subject is the same as mythology studies as a subject. Oh well.

I know something of abuse also, but for some reason, it never turned me away from God. The same can be said of several other people that I personally know. Do you think that it is logical to turn away from God because you have suffered? Perhaps you have other reasons for this, but childhood abuse, at the hands of a member of organised religion is not a good reason for trashing God, in my opinion. I would even go as far as saying that it's not a good enough reason for trashing that particular brand of organised religion. (I am not a member of any organised religion, though I prefer going to a church that obviously loves Jesus.)
I suspect that there is more than your childnood suffering that caused you to turn away from what you were once taught. No doubt, your suffering is/was great, and God understands that. He is a very kind and loving God, after all. But I wonder, what have you gained by turning away from Him?

Rejection of God in that circumstance is rationally explainable, anyway. One rejects God because one doesn't want to associate one's self with the act of abuse. When priests, those claiming to represent the object of your faith, act in a way that seems immoral, you naturally link the action to the faith and, as a result, you reject the faith firstly out of spite for those who performed the original injustice, secondly to prevent the memory of the event from haunting you in the future, and thirdly as a statement to say "This is Not how I want to live my life".

Seems reasonable to me, anyway.

No not really but it defiantly would seem more just and fair by my standards (that is if he is truly an all loving god he should value love and compassion in his followers over if they happened to have picked the correct religion (or even the correct interpretation of one faith) )

We're not going by your standards, but God's standards. (Yes, even the ones I personally don't like. I don't want this to come off as my interpretation of God's standards. Just what the book says.)

He is a loving God. But He is also a just God. It's not about picking the right interpretation of religion. It's about admitting that we are what he says we are (sinners, rebels), admitting that sinners should not (nor do they want to) spend eternity with him and are therefore worthy of punishment, admitting that the only way back to him is the way he provided because we do not have the ability to go back on our own. He didn't have to provide us a way back. He could have punished us all (and would have been completely just in that) but he loved us and provided a way to forgiveness.

Back to Ralph: now you're just being silly. (I know, you're trying to say that it's the same as us being silly and saying you just need to believe, I'm getting the picture.) I have grown heads of lettuce myself. I have seen them grown, and I know that generally that is where they come from.

I have never seen (physically) my God. But I know him as a person. I have never known another person like him. I have studied about other gods and religions, and this one is different.
Many other people have believed in many other religions and many other Gods. They fully believed, as you do, that their religion was the correct one.

Later, some of those religions were dispelled by an increasing understanding of the universe around us. A prime example is Apollo. It was thought that Apollo was responsible for dragging the sun across the sky. Why? Because they had no other plausible explanation. Eventually, we figured out that we see the sun cross the sky because the Earth rotates about its axis, so now the notion of the god Apollo is completely dispelled.

When people use the origin of the universe as part of the argument in favor of God's existence, I view it the same way. Perhaps we don't know the answer right now, but that doesn't mean I'll attribute it to a God.

Enough with all your bullshit please. I am Wiccan! All of you Christians need to remember that Wicca was the first religion, now I am not saying that makes it right though. If you look at every religion in the world there is always going to be some similarity between them. Look at Wicca and Christanity. Everything in Christianity was taken from a Wiccan moral, well almost everything. The whole thing with Christ is funny really...because in Wiccan (which came first) our god died and was reborn to make spring. Hello! Same damn thing! So do not say that no other religion has had a god die, because they have. Why do you people believe the bible anyways? Everyone knows that some stupid crack pot idiot wrote it because he did not like Wicca. He took everything that he liked in Wicca and made a new religion, he left out what he did not like and there you go...a new religion is born. Isn't that just amazing people?

I didn't realize this was a comedy gig! I chortle at your simple-mindedness!