NationStates Jolt Archive

Cultural conservatives need to face facts about quite a few things.

Northerners will always move south as the economy grows there and stop growing in the north, and they will always bring their ideals and views with them.

Even if statewide amendments or even national amendments are made to constitutions in regards to gay marriage/unions, they will probably be struck down within 20 or 30 years. Most of today's people under 30 are for civil unions or marriage.

Conservative denominations in America are on the decline (except for pentacostals), and nondenominational churches and home bible study groups are on the increase. It's been doing this since the late 80s.

Within 20 years I suspect that Dobson guy, Jerry Falwell, and Pat Robertson will no longer be living. Those 3 voices won't have much say after they are dead.

Colleges will always be liberal, there's nothing that can be done.

Movies will always be violent, have sex and cursing, and so on.... At least in the USA. The constitution allows it.

Blacks will marry whites, and so will Asians, Hispanics, Indians, etc. There is really nothing you can do.

America is everyone's country who lives in it, not just yours. It belongs to your kids, your mailman, your president, your worst American enemy, the lesbian girl in your daughter/son's math class, the criminals.... everyone. It's not all about you.

Don't worry though.....


PETA will never get meat banned or stop you from hunting. (Thank god)

Not everyone will turn gay and have orgies in the street.

Your guns will probably never fully be taken away.

Most of the liberals will probably stay in the city as they feel more accepted there, whereas most conservatives will stay out in the country because it's peaceful.

Today's teens will probably NOT end up as adult hooligans for the most part. They will end up being just as qualified as today's adults, maybe even more qualified.




I guess what I'm trying to say is that the world will keep spinning, no matter what you try to do to slow it down. Wars will happen, people will die, new babies will be born, some criminals will turn over a new leaf while some good people will start a life of crime. It's gone through all of history and will keep doing so. We don't have to agree on everything, but you've got to learn to let things happen as they will.

Cultural conservatives need to face facts about quite a few things.

Northerners will always move south as the economy grows there and stop growing in the north, and they will always bring their ideals and views with them.

Even if statewide amendments or even national amendments are made to constitutions in regards to gay marriage/unions, they will probably be struck down within 20 or 30 years. Most of today's people under 30 are for civil unions or marriage.

Conservative denominations in America are on the decline (except for pentacostals), and nondenominational churches and home bible study groups are on the increase. It's been doing this since the late 80s.

Within 20 years I suspect that Dobson guy, Jerry Falwell, and Pat Robertson will no longer be living. Those 3 voices won't have much say after they are dead.

Colleges will always be liberal, there's nothing that can be done.

Movies will always be violent, have sex and cursing, and so on.... At least in the USA. The constitution allows it.

Blacks will marry whites, and so will Asians, Hispanics, Indians, etc. There is really nothing you can do.

America is everyone's country who lives in it, not just yours. It belongs to your kids, your mailman, your president, your worst American enemy, the lesbian girl in your daughter/son's math class, the criminals.... everyone. It's not all about you.

Don't worry though.....


PETA will never get meat banned or stop you from hunting. (Thank god)

Not everyone will turn gay and have orgies in the street.

Your guns will probably never fully be taken away.

Most of the liberals will probably stay in the city as they feel more accepted there, whereas most conservatives will stay out in the country because it's peaceful.

Today's teens will probably NOT end up as adult hooligans for the most part. They will end up being just as qualified as today's adults, maybe even more qualified.




I guess what I'm trying to say is that the world will keep spinning, no matter what you try to do to slow it down. Wars will happen, people will die, new babies will be born, some criminals will turn over a new leaf while some good people will start a life of crime. It's gone through all of history and will keep doing so. We don't have to agree on everything, but you've got to learn to let things happen as they will.


Thank you! You are a sane voice in a sea of insanity. :D

Yeah right. The Rapture's coming in 2012. While you two hippies are being burned in the hellfire, I'll be playing Pictionary with Jesus.

Yeah right. The Rapture's coming in 2012. While you two hippies are being burned in the hellfire, I'll be playing Pictionary with Jesus.

I'm practically the opposite of a hippy actually as I'm a libertarian, but think what you will. Doesn't make much difference to me, as it's my life and I am free to live it like I want. Thank ya for your feedback though.

Yeah right. The Rapture's coming in 2012. While you two hippies are being burned in the hellfire, I'll be playing Pictionary with Jesus.
I didn't know Jesus liked Pictionary, huh.
FYI, the Rature is coming in 2055.

The problem with "cultural" conservatives is they don't help bring back a sense of America's culture. They are more concerned with REPLACING our American founding principles with their religion.

Take for instance their focus on gay marriage or abortion. It supercedes issues like the Iraq war, the economy situation, our dependency on foreign oil, and they also are completely unaware or prefer to change American Revolutionary history.

1. They use their religion to position CORRUPT politicians in office unlike the American patriots of old who used religion to DEMONIZE political corruption. Thus negating their quest for morality before it began.

2. The people they put in power are people of POOR and faulty character unlike the days of old where character meant also not being an arrogant fool and a dumbass.

3. Gay marriage and abortion is a STATE issue. Not a constitutional issue. Their fevor blinds them of such facts. A lot of issues that they bring up can be solved at the local level instead of tampering with the Constitution.

4. They attack ANYBODY that doesn't agree with them because of their lack of knowledge in anything regarding our American Republic.

5. They are extremists themselves like in the muslim world and seem to completely forget the concept of compromise and pragmatism.

6. They are becoming more fascist than people of morals.

7. They use the Republican party to attack the Democrats for being anti-second ammendment while also manipulating the Republicans in trying to attack the first ammendment.

The republican party needs to go back and listen to the moderates and paleo-conservatives again. Not these evangelical lunatics who will NEVER be pleased in an American republic. They need to move to the Vatican where a government in their preferences exists.

Americai, it doesn't really make a difference though. There will always be a side of the population against fascism. Things aren't nearly as bad as they were during the McCarthy/J. Edgar Hoover era.

Conservative denominations in America are on the decline (except for pentacostals), and nondenominational churches and home bible study groups are on the increase. It's been doing this since the late 80s.

Can you back that up with a source? I've never heard that. I've never actually looked for it, but I've never heard it used in one of these arguments, either.

Within 20 years I suspect that Dobson guy, Jerry Falwell, and Pat Robertson will no longer be living. Those 3 voices won't have much say after they are dead.

Go figure. I'm sure I could name three liberal goons that will be dead one day, but I'm sure there will be more liberal goons to take their place. The same tends to happen with conservative goons.

I didn't know Jesus liked Pictionary, huh.
FYI, the Rature is coming in 2055.

Christ! 2055???? I can't wait that friggin long. I already gave notice at work. Friggin Mayan calendar!

Yeah right. The Rapture's coming in 2012. While you two hippies are being burned in the hellfire, I'll be playing Pictionary with Jesus.

I like to call myself a hippie, but I share almost nothing in common with them.


I'm politcally one of the oddest people I know. About a week ago, I hadn't really thought of it much, but I considered myself a far left liberal.

Now, I think I'd call myself an economically liberal libertarian.


I believe in most cases, government doesn't belong in our personal lives.

I also believe, though, that everybody should get basic healthcare, education, and protection, provided by the government.



Well, that really didn't have much to do with the thread, just had to get that out. Basically, you can call me what you want and say what you will (how you know the rapture will come in 2012 is beyond me), but I think Uginin has it just about right.


EDIT: Well, it looks as if it was sarcasm... sorry about that. :p

Americai, it doesn't really make a difference though. There will always be a side of the population against fascism. Things aren't nearly as bad as they were during the McCarthy/J. Edgar Hoover era.
Though things are not bad now, a threat to the republic is still a threat to the republic.

They need to actually become a tool to assist our culture, not replace it with their theocratic principles.

Can you back that up with a source? I've never heard that. I've never actually looked for it, but I've never heard it used in one of these arguments, either.



Go figure. I'm sure I could name three liberal goons that will be dead one day, but I'm sure there will be more liberal goons to take their place. The same tends to happen with conservative goons.

http://www.indyvoter.org/article.php?id=466 Click on the PDF file. I tried to find my original source for that survey, but I'm in a hurry so I took it from a freaky site.

Also, yes I'm sure 3 liberal goons will die too, but I can't even think of 3 popular liberal goons outside of politics....

They need to actually become a tool to assist our culture, not replace it with their theocratic principles.

Everyone has their own idea of what a way of life is and how people should lead it. They are entitled to their opinions as we are to ours I think. They just have the loudest voice right now. Remember that these things don't last forever. The 40s and 50s were very religious times, then you had the 60s and the 70s where people became less religious. The 80s were very militant whereas the 90s saw it in a decline.

Christ! 2055???? I can't wait that friggin long. I already gave notice at work. Friggin Mayan calendar!
There were scheduling conflicts so it had to be pushed up.

The problem with "cultural" conservatives is they don't help bring back a sense of America's culture. They are more concerned with REPLACING our American founding principles with their religion.

Not all of them. Just the people you have in mind.

Take for instance their focus on gay marriage or abortion. It supercedes issues like the Iraq war, the economy situation, our dependency on foreign oil, and they also are completely unaware or prefer to change American Revolutionary history.

Someone wrote a good post on why this is about a month ago. The person's name slips my mind. Some politicians run on this, but is that how they are in congress? I doubt it. They have to concentrate on a plethora of issues. Just because you only see soundbytes of men screaming about abortion on the news does not mean that it is all they talk about. It's just that no one wants to see men screaming about energy policy (usually).

1. They use their religion to position CORRUPT politicians in office unlike the American patriots of old who used religion to DEMONIZE political corruption. Thus negating their quest for morality before it began.

You must establish that all 'cuturally conservative' politicians are corrupt if you want to use that as a reason to hate all of them.

2. The people they put in power are people of POOR and faulty character unlike the days of old where character meant also not being an arrogant fool and a dumbass.

I wouldn't be so sure that there weren't 'people of character' that were fools back then. Coincidentially, many of those men you speak of would support the cultural policies of 'cultural conservatives', though that's neither here nor there.

3. Gay marriage and abortion is a STATE issue. Not a constitutional issue. Their fevor blinds them of such facts. A lot of issues that they bring up can be solved at the local level instead of tampering with the Constitution.

I won't argue with that. However, not every 'cultural conservative' is in the federal government and not all of them that are want to see a constitutional amendment, I suspect.

4. They attack ANYBODY that doesn't agree with them because of their lack of knowledge in anything regarding our American Republic.

Rhetoric. Unsubstantiated, too. I love the use of sweeping 'they's.

5. They are extremists themselves like in the muslim world and seem to completely forget the concept of compromise and pragmatism.

First, they compromise. You just watch cable news networks too often. Second, they don't kill people that don't agree with them. They try to pass laws that would mould the country to the way that they see fit. That's legal. That's also pragmatic, unlike car bombing gays.

6. They are becoming more fascist than people of morals.

All of them? Every last one?

7. They use the Republican party to attack the Democrats for being anti-second ammendment while also manipulating the Republicans in trying to attack the first ammendment.

The Democratic party attacks Republicans for being anti-first ammendment while also manipulating the Democrats in trying to attack the second ammendment. These kinds of games aren't new to politics nor are they unique to 'cultural conservatives'.

The republican party needs to go back and listen to the moderates and paleo-conservatives again. Not these evangelical lunatics who will NEVER be pleased in an American republic. They need to move to the Vatican where a government in their preferences exists.

I'm sure there's someone that disagrees with you.

and who appointed himself to delimit their characteristics?

I know what I believe, why I believe it, and what actions are a result of those beliefs, but I don't view myself as a "cultural conservative" described in this thread.

http://www.indyvoter.org/article.php?id=466 Click on the PDF file. I tried to find my original source for that survey, but I'm in a hurry so I took it from a freaky site.

Also, yes I'm sure 3 liberal goons will die too, but I can't even think of 3 popular liberal goons outside of politics....

Good enough for me.

Michael Moore. Um, the entire ACLU when I don't agree with them. And... I don't know.

and who appointed himself to delimit their characteristics?

I know what I believe, why I believe it, and what actions are a result of those beliefs, but I don't view myself as a "cultural conservative" described in this thread.

Well, I never said I knew everyone. Believe what you want to. That's what the post is about. I'm just saying that you can't stop the weather basically. People are who they are and we should respect that, I think, and that goes for everyone.

The problem with "cultural" conservatives is they don't help bring back a sense of America's culture. They are more concerned with REPLACING our American founding principles with their religion.

Take for instance their focus on gay marriage or abortion. It supercedes issues like the Iraq war, the economy situation, our dependency on foreign oil, and they also are completely unaware or prefer to change American Revolutionary history.

1. They use their religion to position CORRUPT politicians in office unlike the American patriots of old who used religion to DEMONIZE political corruption. Thus negating their quest for morality before it began.

2. The people they put in power are people of POOR and faulty character unlike the days of old where character meant also not being an arrogant fool and a dumbass.

3. Gay marriage and abortion is a STATE issue. Not a constitutional issue. Their fevor blinds them of such facts. A lot of issues that they bring up can be solved at the local level instead of tampering with the Constitution.

4. They attack ANYBODY that doesn't agree with them because of their lack of knowledge in anything regarding our American Republic.

5. They are extremists themselves like in the muslim world and seem to completely forget the concept of compromise and pragmatism.

6. They are becoming more fascist than people of morals.

7. They use the Republican party to attack the Democrats for being anti-second ammendment while also manipulating the Republicans in trying to attack the first ammendment.

The republican party needs to go back and listen to the moderates and paleo-conservatives again. Not these evangelical lunatics who will NEVER be pleased in an American republic. They need to move to the Vatican where a government in their preferences exists.

Of course... the same thing can be said of the other isle as well, replacing conservative with liberal, republican with democrat.

http://www.indyvoter.org/article.php?id=466 but I can't even think of 3 popular liberal goons outside of politics....
Just go to IMDB or Air America's websites. You'll find tons of them either place.

Good enough for me.

Michael Moore. Um, the entire ACLU when I don't agree with them. And... I don't know.

Oh. Yeah. I forgot about Michael Moore.... But I think he may still be alive in 30 years though in bad health or something. The ACLU.... I don't think they are as bad as Bill O'Reilly makes them out to be. I'm more for People For The American Way and Center For Consumer Freedom myself, though.

I hate the ACLU because I think civil liberties suck.

Just go to IMDB or Air America's websites. You'll find tons of them either place.

IMDB also has many conservative pundits listed. I consider John Gibson to be my biggest enemy in the world.... and PETA of course.

1. They use their religion to position CORRUPT politicians in office unlike the American patriots of old who used religion to DEMONIZE political corruption. Thus negating their quest for morality before it began.
I can name just as many, if not more, corrupt liberal politicians as you can name conservative politicians. Hell, most of them are corrupt...on both sides.
2. The people they put in power are people of POOR and faulty character unlike the days of old where character meant also not being an arrogant fool and a dumbass.
*cough* Bill Clinton *cough*
3. Gay marriage and abortion is a STATE issue. Not a constitutional issue. Their fevor blinds them of such facts. A lot of issues that they bring up can be solved at the local level instead of tampering with the Constitution.
Note that it was the liberals that made abortion a Constitutional issue instead of a state issue with Roe v. Wade.
4. They attack ANYBODY that doesn't agree with them because of their lack of knowledge in anything regarding our American Republic.
Kind of like you're doing to them right now?

I'll just stop there...this is too easy.

I hate the ACLU because I think civil liberties suck.

Fair enough. Now give me your guns if you have any, send in the request to have sex in triplicate and wait 7 days for it to be signed and stamped by the Government, give us your cigarettes, and we'll listen in on your phone calls and read your emails. Also remember to tell us where you are driving to at all times and to only check out approved books from your library. Have a nice day.

Guys.... Gals.... Why are we fighting over petty things and pointing our fingers at each others politics when no one is perfect, much less any political philosophy due to the fact that the idea of "PERFECT" is not possible unless everyone agrees? Perfect is in the eye of the beholder and no political party is perfect to everyone nor is 1 person.

I can name just as many, if not more, corrupt liberal politicians as you can name conservative politicians. Hell, most of them are corrupt...on both sides.

*cough* Bill Clinton *cough*

Note that it was the liberals that made abortion a Constitutional issue instead of a state issue with Roe v. Wade.

Kind of like you're doing to them right now?

I'll just stop there...this is too easy.

I don't think the point was "all conservatives are evil." I think the point was cultural conservatives are not going to take over the country, no matter what they would like us to believe.


EDIT: Whoops!!! :headbang:

Me being an idiot. Sorry. I didn't realize you weren't responding to the original post.


Well, I think that's the idea of the original post, though.

I don't think the point was "all conservatives are evil." I think the point was cultural conservatives are not going to take over the country, no matter what they would like us to believe.

Exactly. And neither are liberals, because times change and with it change the ideals of the world.

Well, I never said I knew everyone. Believe what you want to. That's what the post is about. I'm just saying that you can't stop the weather basically. People are who they are and we should respect that, I think, and that goes for everyone.


OK, here are some of my beliefs. These beliefs drive behaviors.


I believe that people should strive behave in a way that is pleasing and honoring to God.

I believe that God has ordained government to aid people in their daily lives.

I believe that we have a responsibility to each other to love, encourage, support, and discipline (yes, I said that) each other.

I believe that the discipline that is appropriate depends on the degree to which the conduct hurts other people.

I believe that it is a legitimate role of government to regulate certain behavior according to generally acceptable norms.

I believe that there are absolute standards of right and wrong.

I believe that just because a society generally accepts a certain behavior doesn't necessarily mean that the behavior is "good" or "right".

I believe that certain behaviors that are atypical are not necessarily "abnormal".

I believe that not all abnormal behavior should be criminalized.

I believe that certain "abnormal" behaviors should be criminalized.

I believe that we should value other people because they are loved by God.



So, am I one of those cultural conservatives you think are whacked?

If so, which ones (if not all) of my beliefs do you not agree with. I'll see if I can give some rational explanation for those.

Fair enough. Now give me your guns if you have any, send in the request to have sex in triplicate and wait 7 days for it to be signed and stamped by the Government, give us your cigarettes, and we'll listen in on your phone calls and read your emails. Also remember to tell us where you are driving to at all times and to only check out approved books from your library. Have a nice day.

I'll gladly give up my 47 guns to the feds when they start enforcing God's law in this great Christian nation of ours. As for that other stuff... I say no to sex already - Cigarettes are just satans penis that fornicators suck on - telephones and email are the devil's tools - and the libary is useless coz I already got me a Bible.

I believe that people should strive behave in a way that is pleasing and honoring to God.

I believe that God has ordained government to aid people in their daily lives.

I believe that we should value other people because they are loved by God.

These are the three I have qualms with. Not everybody believes in your God. Period.

Not everyone should believe in your God. Period.

Ungin, WTF are you smoking? I know a TON of cultural conservatives who DONT think the way you think they are....geez, I think somebody's a bit mad at the neoconservatives.

Crazy lefties . . . :rolleyes:

These are the three I have qualms with. Not everybody believes in your God. Period.

Not everyone should believe in your God. Period.

If someone believes in him and the Christian doctrine, wouldn't it be reasonable for that person to believe that everyone should believe in their God?

If someone believes in him and the Christian doctrine, wouldn't it be reasonable for that person to believe that everyone should believe in their God?

True. Touche.

That still gives them no right to take away my non-Christ based rights, though.

Underemployed Pirates, I did not post this to say that cultural conservatives were evil. If that is what it sounded like, then I am sorry.

I mean, I believe in the death penalty, though I believe it should be optional for all people with life sentences and all those years in jail I consider to be cruel and unusual punishment.

I am pro-life, but I think abortion is a personal decision, and that it's not my buisness to meddle in other people's affairs like that.

I'm a Christian too, but to be a Christian in my denomination, all you have to do is believe that Jesus saved you and that he's Holy. There are no unforgivable sins, and no sin is greater than another.

My dad is a pastor, so I lived with conservative christians for 18 years. I just moved out because I want to start out on my own and help people that my parents don't think are worthy of help. (My dad is Baptist, I am UCC)

So believe what you wish. I'm not saying stop. I'm just saying I don't have to agree with you, and my personal belief is that I should not be made to.

I believe that God has ordained government to aid people in their daily lives.

Explain that one. I don't see anything wrong with the others.

True. Touche.

That still gives them no right to take away my non-Christ based rights, though.

No, it doesn't.

Crazy lefties . . . :rolleyes:

I have GOT to learn to communicate better. People seem to think I wrote what I wrote in some mad fury. I did not. I'm not a socialist or a communist either. (I am left-handed though!) I am a libertarian. Liberals believe in making bunches and bunches of laws to protect people. Libertarians basically are "mind your own buisness" people.

I'll gladly give up my 47 guns to the feds when they start enforcing God's law in this great Christian nation of ours. As for that other stuff... I say no to sex already - Cigarettes are just satans penis that fornicators suck on - telephones and email are the devil's tools - and the libary is useless coz I already got me a Bible.

Okay then.... So what's there to complain about?

Okay then.... So what's there to complain about?

Look... If you want me to keep arguing with you, I have to take a contradictory position. Now you start again.

I have GOT to learn to communicate better. People seem to think I wrote what I wrote in some mad fury. I did not. I'm not a socialist or a communist either. (I am left-handed though!) I am a libertarian. Liberals believe in making bunches and bunches of laws to protect people. Libertarians basically are "mind your own buisness" people.

Libertarian social ideas are still about as far left as you can go.

All I can say about your initial post is that if someone would feel better if they 'fought the good fight' and tried to pass legislation inhibiting the progress (although arguments can be made that it is a regression just as well) of society then let them. If the laws don't pass, then they wasted their time but they'll feel better. If the laws do pass then I guess they did end up successfully opposing social progress (or regression).

All I can say about your initial post is that if someone would feel better if they 'fought the good fight' and tried to pass legislation inhibiting the progress (although arguments can be made that it is a regression just as well) of society then let them. If the laws don't pass, then they wasted their time but they'll feel better. If the laws do pass then I guess they did end up successfully opposing social progress (or regression).

Well, as I said, pass a bill or amend the constitution in a way that people won't like in 20 years or so, it'll just be struck out or changed in some way.

I just get tired of the "Think of the children" saying. I'm sure they aren't asking their kids what they want anyway. Children DO become adults.

Libertarian social ideas are still about as far left as you can go.

You mean cultural. Social ideas include medicade and stuff. Even then we still believe in freedom from government gun control.

Well said. Hard-core Old Testament thumpers get under my skin faster than anything short of stale babka.

Well said. Hard-core Old Testament thumpers get under my skin faster than anything short of stale babka.

Yes, they get under mine too. So do militant animal rights activists (ALF), Ralph Nader, PETA, Barbera Boxer, and the idea of radical populism.

But that's just me, and I don't see why everyone else should have the same dislikes as me.

Well, as I said, pass a bill or amend the constitution in a way that people won't like in 20 years or so, it'll just be struck out or changed in some way.

But until then the majority agreed with it. A good example here would be Jim Crow laws. When did they stop passing those? Was it within 20 years of the civil rights movement?

Edit: The latest one I can find was passed in 1967. These are ammendments, laws, and city ordinances.

But until then the majority agreed with it. A good example here would be Jim Crow laws. When did they stop passing those? Was it within 20 years of the civil rights movement?

I'm not sure really. I think it was about 70 years. 1880something to 1950something right?

But as I said.... the world moves on. You can't stop it. You can try slow it, but it'll keep going. People just need to think before they act I think. Sure it may seem good to forbid gay marriage or to forbid meateating now, but in 50 years people could look back and see the people who made those laws as idiots and hateful people. Or they might not. But thinking about that could stop some horrible decisions from being made.

I'm not sure really. I think it was about 70 years. 1880something to 1950something right?

But as I said.... the world moves on. You can't stop it. You can try slow it, but it'll keep going. People just need to think before they act I think. Sure it may seem good to forbid gay marriage or to forbid meateating now, but in 50 years people could look back and see the people who made those laws as idiots and hateful people. Or they might not. But thinking about that could stop some horrible decisions from being made.

Thinking like that can paralyze you with indecision, too. Just as much as thinking about what would be good for the future, we have to think about what would be good now. Just because society will change in 50 years does not mean that it has changed yet. As long as laws change with the times I don't see what's wrong with the laws being there. The only issue I see here is the oppression of the minority by a sometimes slim majority. I make a distinction between that and simply passing a 'hateful' law that many, many people would support.

Thinking like that can paralyze you with indecision, too. Just as much as thinking about what would be good for the future, we have to think about what would be good now. Just because society will change in 50 years does not mean that it has changed yet. As long as laws change with the times I don't see what's wrong with the laws being there. The only issue I see here is the oppression of the minority by a sometimes slim majority. I make a distinction between that and simply passing a 'hateful' law that many, many people would support.

Yes, I agree with you for the most part. But it's when people try to pass laws with such a ferocious hatred like some do with the marriage thing, I want to just pack up and leave the country. About half or more than half of Americans, for example, agree with civil unions. However, when those marriage acts were passed in their respective states back in November, they also outlawed civil unions in most cases by not stating clearly that's what they would do. I find it cheap and snotty to do that, but that's what they did. And their voters didn't want that in some of the states, like in Oregon.

Some schools may have to ban Harry Potter book because some parents raise a hissyfit about it.

I see it as punishment of a lot of people for just a few people. They COULD just tell their kids they can't read it.

Cultural conservatives need to face facts about quite a few things.

I disagree, they only need to face one thing.. They're going down. Enjoy it while it lasts..lol :cool:

I disagree, they only need to face one thing.. They're going down. Enjoy it while it lasts..lol :cool:

I think there's a place in this world for everyone. We just have to stop forcing our will on others. But that's just me.

Explain that one. I don't see anything wrong with the others.


I'm not saying that every government is an arm of the Lord. What I am saying is that the [concept of] "government" is one of the basic institutions the Lord intends to aid/protect people.

I think cultural conservatives (whatever that is) should be able to articulate their beliefs so that people can understand the basis for their actions. Too often, folk on polar opposite sides of politics just make dismissive remarks against other people just to make themselves look bigger.

In another thread where I was being hammered (sarcasm, anger, belittlement, etc.) for my belief system (I think a particular conduct is "wrong" and should be criminalized) --- folks wouldn't listen...instead they wanted to attack. It seems strange that folk who claim to be enlightened get so aggressive in these threads against traditional Christian concepts (and I'm not talkng about the Inquisition).

I think folk ought to be able to discuss conpeting ideas without being hammered with name-calling, etc.

I'm not saying that every government is an arm of the Lord. What I am saying is that the [concept of] "government" is one of the basic institutions the Lord intends to aid/protect people.

I think cultural conservatives (whatever that is) should be able to articulate their beliefs so that people can understand the basis for their actions. Too often, folk on polar opposite sides of politics just make dismissive remarks against other people just to make themselves look bigger.

In another thread where I was being hammered because my belief system thought a particular conduct is "wrong" (sarcasm and downright anger, etc), folks wouldn't listen...instead they wanted to attack. It seems strange that folk who claim to be enlightened get so aggressive in these threads against traditional Christian concepts (and I'm not talkng about the Inquisition).

I think folk ought to be able to discuss conpeting ideas without being hammered with name-calling, etc.

That makes sense, I guess.l

I'll bet you that almost everyone that was calling you names was under 25. They'll grow out of it. You can be all that enlightened if you have to resort to name calling to establish your views. You also can't be all that enlightened if you assume that your views are self-evident.

I'll bet you that almost everyone that was calling you names was under 25. They'll grow out of it. You can be all that enlightened if you have to resort to name calling to establish your views. You also can't be all that enlightened if you assume that your views are self-evident.

Well we ALL aren't like that. I'm only 19 myself, and I rarely go towards namecalling. Those that do, well, I think some will grow out of it and some won't. As for everything else... yep, I agree.

I'm practically the opposite of a hippy actually as I'm a libertarian, but think what you will. Doesn't make much difference to me, as it's my life and I am free to live it like I want. Thank ya for your feedback though.
Libertarians are just capitalist hippies. To be the opposite of a hippie, you have to be Hitler.

Cultural conservatives need to face facts about quite a few things.

Today's teens will probably NOT end up as adult hooligans for the most part. They will end up being just as qualified as today's adults, maybe even more qualified.

I don't have much hope for todays teens. They've all been dumbed down by too much Nintendo, or X-box, you get the idea.

I'll gladly give up my 47 guns to the feds when they start enforcing God's law in this great Christian nation of ours. .

Yeah, the good laws like thou shalt not yoke an ox next to an ass, thou shalt not touch an unclean (on her period) woman, and thou shalt not wear leather and wool together.
come the rapture, can I have your car?

I don't have much hope for todays teens. They've all been dumbed down by too much Nintendo, or X-box, you get the idea.

Just like yesterday's teens were dumbed down by $random_popular_thing.

I don't have much hope for todays teens. They've all been dumbed down by too much Nintendo, or X-box, you get the idea.

I teach today's teens (Social Studies). They've been dumbed down by standardized tests and teachers who are surronded by state and federal paperwork. I can't teach them. I'm not allowed to teach them. What I am allowed to do is prepare them for their next standardized test. :(

Our great and mighty leader, "no child left behind". My kids can't even find the bus station....

Yeah, the good laws like thou shalt not yoke an ox next to an ass, thou shalt not touch an unclean (on her period) woman, and thou shalt not wear leather and wool together.
come the rapture, can I have your car?

Those are all excellent laws. And no you can't have my car coz I don't want your hellfire damaging my leather seats.

I teach today's teens (Social Studies). They've been dumbed down by standardized tests and teachers who are surronded by state and federal paperwork. I can't teach them. I'm not allowed to teach them. What I am allowed to do is prepare them for their next standardized test. :(

Our great and mighty leader, "no child left behind". My kids can't even find the bus station....
So what does NCLB do but impose some accountability on schools? The question is from genuine ignorance of the law.

So what does NCLB do but impose some accountability on schools? The question is from genuine ignorance of the law.

It requires constant standardized testing.

Standardized testing, of course, does not encourage learning of any sort. All it encourages is memorizing whatever happens to be on the test. There is no time, between so many standardized tests, to actually teach students critical thinking or how to interpret literature or how to do their own research.

This is a problem.

Edit: The law is also based off of the idea that all children are the same and that none should naturally be "left behind", which is ludicrous. Human beings are not all the same, with the same talents, and the same structure for learning.

It requires constant standardized testing.

Standardized testing, of course, does not encourage learning of any sort. All it encourages is memorizing whatever happens to be on the test. There is no time, between so many standardized tests, to actually teach students critical thinking or how to interpret literature or how to do their own research.

This is a problem.

Edit: The law is also based off of the idea that all children are the same and that none should naturally be "left behind", which is ludicrous. Human beings are not all the same, with the same talents, and the same structure for learning.
Okay. Even in the '60s when I was in elementary school, standardized tests were given two or three times a year. I find it difficult to imagine that they are given any more frequently than that, now. If it is, that sucks.

Second, wasn't "tracking" a bad thing that lumped good students with other good students and bad students with other bad students? That pre-dated NCLB. Then there is "inclusion" which also pre-dates NCLB, where special ed students are included in regular classrooms. Doesn't that violate the idea that children are equal?

So what does NCLB do but impose some accountability on schools? The question is from genuine ignorance of the law.
So do you support everything that Bush does or only 98.9% of what he does? :rolleyes:

So do you support everything that Bush does or only 98.9% of what he does? :rolleyes:
Did you ever stop to consider that I might curious about how the NCLB law is affecting AMERICAN teachers? I don't see that the Irish have any reason to put their noses into this matter.

Did you ever stop to consider that I might curious about how the NCLB law is affecting AMERICAN teachers? I don't see that the Irish have any reason to put their noses into this matter.
I have no opinion on NCLB, I was just commenting on the fact that you seem never to show anything other than unquestioning support for everything Bush does. Partisanship is one of my peeves.

Okay. Even in the '60s when I was in elementary school, standardized tests were given two or three times a year.

Wow. What bass-ackwards state did you live in?

Second, wasn't "tracking" a bad thing that lumped good students with other good students and bad students with other bad students?

I'm not sure what you are talking about. However, I see no problem with giving more advanced material to the students that can handle it and holding back with the students who can't. That, in fact, is the only way to truly foster learning.

Then there is "inclusion" which also pre-dates NCLB, where special ed students are included in regular classrooms.

I have never seen anything that puts all special ed students in regular classrooms, simply those who can handle it.

Doesn't that violate the idea that children are equal?

Perhaps. Of course, it should. All children are not equal students, nor should they be treated as such. Attempting to treat them as such does nothing but keep any students from learning. The good students get bored and disinterested. The poor students can't keep up. The students who learn differently get no attention. All human beings are not exactly the same.

Wow. What bass-ackwards state did you live in?



I'm not sure what you are talking about. However, I see no problem with giving more advanced material to the students that can handle it and holding back with the students who can't. That, in fact, is the only way to truly foster learning.



I have never seen anything that puts all special ed students in regular classrooms, simply those who can handle it.



Perhaps. Of course, it should. All children are not equal students, nor should they be treated as such. Attempting to treat them as such does nothing but keep any students from learning. The good students get bored and disinterested. The poor students can't keep up. The students who learn differently get no attention. All human beings are not exactly the same.
Thanks for avoiding ad hominem attacks on me, anyway. I lived in Ohio. We weren't exactly the last in the nation when it came to testing. I knew kids that grew up in Northern VA and California that remember taking as many or more tests. So it seems the quantity of test required isn't necessarily something unheard of, just mandated by the fed.

Tracking is Eduspeak for running advanced, intermediate, and slow classes. It fell out of favor after I graduated from high school, but before my kids finished. There was a big push for equality in the classrooms and the avoidance of anything that made kids look like achievers. One of those misdirected self-esteem efforts that originated in California. Again, it looks like NCLB hasn't broken any new ground, just standardized bad practice.

You have zeroed in on the real problem with education. It isn't personalized. Public education isn't ever going to be personalized. The best anyone can hope for is a private education, or a teacher that cares about their subject.

I have no opinion on NCLB, I was just commenting on the fact that you seem never to show anything other than unquestioning support for everything Bush does. Partisanship is one of my peeves.
Personally, I don't much care what your peeves are. I don't much care for everything GWB does, either, but it's better than the most recent alternatives could have been.

Yeah right. The Rapture's coming in 2012. While you two hippies are being burned in the hellfire, I'll be playing Pictionary with Jesus.

Thats the most pathetic thing I've heard all day. thanks, I needed a good laugh. :D

I'll gladly give up my 47 guns to the feds when they start enforcing God's law in this great Christian nation of ours. As for that other stuff... I say no to sex already - Cigarettes are just satans penis that fornicators suck on - telephones and email are the devil's tools - and the libary is useless coz I already got me a Bible.

Its people like you that dishonor this country. Though the US is primarily Christian there are others religions out there and the US does not (or at least should not) endorse one of them. Cigarettes are bad for you and email and telephones have there downsides, but blaming satan for problems is really stupid.
The Bible is definetely a good doctrine to follow, but that doesn't mean that there isn't anything else out there worth attention.
You are an uneducated fool who ruins this one shot at life for everyone else. You don't have to agree with everything, but at least do yourself a favor and see the good that is in the world aside from your precious religion. Jesus would be dissapointed in you.

... Jesus would be dissapointed in you.

I talk to Jesus everyday, sinner. He's not only happy to know me - He says that I am one of the saved. Think about that when you're riding your burning surfboard through the Lake of Fire!

I don't have much hope for todays teens. They've all been dumbed down by too much Nintendo, or X-box, you get the idea.

Actually, I'm one of today's teens. (19) Why is there no hope for people like me?

Three of my favorite liberal goons:

Al Franken

Molly Ivins

Bill Clinton

Long live the hippies!

Three of my favorite liberal goons:

Al Franken

Molly Ivins

Bill Clinton

Long live the hippies!

There is a big difference between a liberal and a populist. Bill Clinton is a populist.

I'm still waiting to hear why cultural conservatives need to face facts. Or even if such a thing is possible...

I talk to Jesus everyday, sinner. He's not only happy to know me - He says that I am one of the saved. Think about that when you're riding your burning surfboard through the Lake of Fire!

But by his very nature, JC loves us all, even the hellfire spewing surfboarders.
sing with me now: Jesus loves the little children, all the little children of the world....I don't know the rest of the words...make them up as you hum along
I may have a stone in my hand, but I can't cast it...

This is continuing the off thread of NCLB. Don’t read it if you don’t want to.
From http://www.ncpublicschools.org/nclb
*Annual Yearly Progress does not recognize growth or progress in student achievement, only performance. AYP does not measure students against their own previous performance. There is no staff recognition system for schools making AYP.
*Reading and mathematics End-of-Grade tests for Grades 3-8 and the High School Comprehensive Tests of Reading and Mathematics for Grade 10 are used to assess student progress for AYP purposes
*The NAEP, also known as the "Nation's Report Card," assesses students across the nation in Grades 4, 8, and 12 every two years. The NAEP provides the best data for comparing the performance of students in North Carolina to that of their peers across the nation. The academic subjects assessed by NAEP, which vary from year to year, include reading, mathematics, science, writing, history, geography, and the arts.
*At the high school level, End-of-Course tests are used to assess student achievement for each of the following courses (for 2003-04): Algebra I, Algebra II, English I, Biology, Chemistry, Geometry, Physical Science and Physics
*NCLB does not specifically address academically or intellectually gifted students as a group.

So basically NCLB increases the amount of testing a child endures but does not measure individual growth. Pass/fail only
A teacher is forced to teach tested materiel. If a school fails because the materiel taught was not tested, that teacher risks getting fired. (a very real threat, teachers can be fired with no reason given. Tenure is a good thing)
And as has been mentioned, NCLB assumes that every child is on equal footing. Sorry, not gonna happen until we change social services at he pre-school level and ensure that every school, regardless of income, has the same technology and infrastructure in place.
OK, done being off topic now

This is continuing the off thread of NCLB. Don’t read it if you don’t want to.
From http://www.ncpublicschools.org/nclb
*Annual Yearly Progress does not recognize growth or progress in student achievement, only performance. AYP does not measure students against their own previous performance. There is no staff recognition system for schools making AYP.
*Reading and mathematics End-of-Grade tests for Grades 3-8 and the High School Comprehensive Tests of Reading and Mathematics for Grade 10 are used to assess student progress for AYP purposes
*The NAEP, also known as the "Nation's Report Card," assesses students across the nation in Grades 4, 8, and 12 every two years. The NAEP provides the best data for comparing the performance of students in North Carolina to that of their peers across the nation. The academic subjects assessed by NAEP, which vary from year to year, include reading, mathematics, science, writing, history, geography, and the arts.
*At the high school level, End-of-Course tests are used to assess student achievement for each of the following courses (for 2003-04): Algebra I, Algebra II, English I, Biology, Chemistry, Geometry, Physical Science and Physics
*NCLB does not specifically address academically or intellectually gifted students as a group.

So basically NCLB increases the amount of testing a child endures but does not measure individual growth. Pass/fail only
A teacher is forced to teach tested materiel. If a school fails because the materiel taught was not tested, that teacher risks getting fired. (a very real threat, teachers can be fired with no reason given. Tenure is a good thing)
And as has been mentioned, NCLB assumes that every child is on equal footing. Sorry, not gonna happen until we change social services at he pre-school level and ensure that every school, regardless of income, has the same technology and infrastructure in place.
OK, done being off topic now
I'm not too sure this is really off topic, except that NCLB was a bipartisan effort and not solely conservative. Remember this was back in the days when Bush thought that Congress wanted to govern and not posture, so he and Teddy Kennedy came up with this big education bill, part of which was NCLB. Of course, the posturing kicked in immediately after the bill was signed and the Democrats began criticizing the bill as too little, too much, and everything in between. Those were the days when the Senate was split 50-49-Jim Jeffords, so the Democrats had a hand in getting the bill enacted.

Okay, justifications finished.

Where does the NCLB act really diverge from state policies, except for the idea that the Federal Government has required the schools to be accountable for the large sums of money that they accept from it? If a state is willing to accept federal money to run it's school system, then it is leaving itself open to federal scrutiny. Even the government should be concerned that its money is well spent.

The real answer is for states to do one of two things. First, they can refuse to conform to the law and lose their money. Second, they can refuse federal money and get rid of the strings that are attached. I'd like to see Georgia do either.

Psuedo off topic agian. sorry. NCLB


Where does the NCLB act really diverge from state policies

Even the government should be concerned that its money is well spent.


they can refuse federal money .


1. Biggest is the amount of testing and the addition of EOC (End Of Class) exams. They weigh 25% of the final grade. Fail EOC (standardized test), risk failing the class. Sucks big if your a bad test taker.


2. Very true. My beef is that rather than pumping money into test development, allow teachers to assess (or track if you will) their students progress and put that money into extra help in the classroom in the form of trained aids. I know I'd love an extra pair of hands :)

3. True agian, but no one wins when you take money away from a school. There is sad truth to the bumper sticker about the millitary getting money from a bake sale

Psuedo off topic agian. sorry. NCLB




1. Biggest is the amount of testing and the addition of EOC (End Of Class) exams. They weigh 25% of the final grade. Fail EOC (standardized test), risk failing the class. Sucks big if your a bad test taker.


2. Very true. My beef is that rather than pumping money into test development, allow teachers to assess (or track if you will) their students progress and put that money into extra help in the classroom in the form of trained aids. I know I'd love an extra pair of hands :)

3. True agian, but no one wins when you take money away from a school. There is sad truth to the bumper sticker about the millitary getting money from a bake sale
My wife has been a teacher for 13 years. She is not entirely happy with the mandatory testing. However, in general, the education level, in her opinion, has improved.

True, there is "teaching to the test", but teachers do not know what questions will be asked, just what content will be covered.

If the content that will be covered is content that should be learned by the students anyway at a minimum, what is wrong with "teaching to the test"? The students will learn what is required by learning what is on the test.

Exceptions are allowed by schools for the mentally retarded or behaviorally challenged, or for immigrants that may have started school late, within limits.

One of the greatest drags on education, I must agree, is the sameness of teaching. All teaching is done to the lowest common denominator. Special Ed students sometimes get their own student aid, sometimes not, and are "mainstreamed" in the regular class - forcing the teacher to spend too much time dealing with behavioral or intelligence problems to the neglect of the other students. Not to mention the above average students.

NCLB at least implements some level of accountability. Schools are less likely to implement the educational fad of the month, because it would interfere with getting the students ready for their next standardized test, which should cover the minimum the students should be learning anyway.

Rant over. :D

*snip*

Movies will always be violent, have sex and cursing, and so on.... At least in the USA. The constitution allows it.

So your suggesting conservatives dont enjoy the same kind of entertainment? Well slap me thighs and fetch me my banjo! :rolleyes:

Blacks will marry whites, and so will Asians, Hispanics, Indians, etc. There is really nothing you can do.

I'm sorry, your thinking of racists. Im too offended by this to comment further.

Don't worry though.....

PETA will never get meat banned or stop you from hunting. (Thank god)

Not everyone will turn gay and have orgies in the street.

Well hell, they already have the parades. (note- this is a personal opinion, I do not think homosexuality should be illegal, or the parades illegal, or gay marriage illegal or anything like that, its all within their rights, or should be - I just think the parades are well... gay.

Your guns will probably never fully be taken away.

Ah yes, the guns. Fact of the matter is, taking away someones firearms is wrong, not because they keep them safe or its their constitutional right or anything like that, but because they are'nt yours to take. He has hurt noone and as such should be subject to no restrictions within reason (bomb, cannon?)

Most of the liberals will probably stay in the city as they feel more accepted there, whereas most conservatives will stay out in the country because it's peaceful.

Peaceful + full of conservatives? NEVER! Gee, I guess we arent that bad after all :rolleyes:

*snip*



I love your stereotypical "conservative". Tell me, which Moore "documentary" did you get your concept of a social conservative from?