NationStates Jolt Archive

There have been a few threads already that, either because they were supposed to or because they got sidetracked, debated whether or not homosexuality is a choice or not. Personally I got the idea from these debates and from homosexuals I know that it can be either, but I haven't actually heard a homosexual themself say that for them it was a choice. I'm pretty sure some homosexuals who did choose to be homosexual exist, so if you're out there, post here.

Yes I did chose! One day when I was 10 I sat down on my bed and thought, lets see, what do I want in life, do I want to be like a normal human being that no one sees any problems with and like women. Or should I be different and discriminated against and choose men. I chose women naturally.

But more evidence shows its not a choice, some scientist found that straight peoples armpits smell different from gays.

There have been a few threads already that, either because they were supposed to or because they got sidetracked, debated whether or not homosexuality is a choice or not. Personally I got the idea from these debates and from homosexuals I know that it can be either, but I haven't actually heard a homosexual themself say that for them it was a choice. I'm pretty sure some homosexuals who did choose to be homosexual exist, so if you're out there, post here.
I do not believe that one can "choose" their natural sexuality. They can, however, make a subconcious or a conscious decision to go through their lives as though they are a certain sexuality.

Look, I'm not saying there's some moment of choice, I'm just saying that for some people (not the majority of homosexuals, but I'm pretty sure they exist) homosexuality seems to be more like a fetish than something they were born with. How else do you explain one of my friends having 3 bisexual girlfriends at the same time last year?

Look, I'm not saying there's some moment of choice, I'm just saying that for some people (not the majority of homosexuals, but I'm pretty sure they exist) homosexuality seems to be more like a fetish than something they were born with. How else do you explain one of my friends having 3 bisexual girlfriends at the same time last year?
I personally believe that everyone is bisexual to some degree.

I do not believe that one can "choose" their natural sexuality. They can, however, make a subconcious or a conscious decision to go through their lives as though they are a certain sexuality.

So in that case, can someone choose to have a fetish?

So in that case, can someone choose to have a fetish?
No, but they can decide they wish to have one, and act as though they do.

I personally believe that everyone is bisexual to some degree.

They were to a very high degree. Come to think of it that's really the only way to safely have multiple girlfriends, otherwise they hate eachother.

They were to a very high degree. Come to think of it that's really the only way to safely have multiple girlfriends, otherwise they hate eachother.
And you say this must be proof of choice? In what way? They couldn't all three naturally be bisexual to a very high degree?

No, but they can decide they wish to have one, and act as though they do.

This is just my crazy theory, but I think someone actually can change what turns them on over time. It's not a matter of one conscious choice, I agree, but it can happen over time as a sort of association. Gradually if most of one's sex comes through one channel one would start to view the channel itself as a source of pleasure. It would be sort of Pavlovian. So while at the beginning it would be just acting cool without being into it, it would change over time until there was an outright mental difference.

What I don't understand is why so many people choose to be interested in/judgmental about other people's lives, despite the fact that a stranger's sexuality affects them not an iota.

What I don't understand is why so many people choose to be interested in/judgmental about other people's lives, despite the fact that a stranger's sexuality affects them not an iota.

because it is far easier to criticise others than perfect yourself

This is just my crazy theory, but I think someone actually can change what turns them on over time. It's not a matter of one conscious choice, I agree, but it can happen over time as a sort of association. Gradually if most of one's sex comes through one channel one would start to view the channel itself as a source of pleasure. It would be sort of Pavlovian. So while at the beginning it would be just acting cool without being into it, it would change over time until there was an outright mental difference.
Perhaps. You have a right to your own views. They just differ from mine.

There have been a few threads already that, either because they were supposed to or because they got sidetracked, debated whether or not homosexuality is a choice or not. Personally I got the idea from these debates and from homosexuals I know that it can be either, but I haven't actually heard a homosexual themself say that for them it was a choice. I'm pretty sure some homosexuals who did choose to be homosexual exist, so if you're out there, post here.

1) who cares. What differance does it make if its nature vs nurture? People are whatever they are.

2) Does it make homosexuality better or worse if it was one way or another? I have no idea, do you?

3) Why the constant debates on this? People should live however they want to. Its only when something is rubbed in my face that I am going to take an opinion on how someone else is living their life. And for legal reasons, I wont say any more.

This is just my crazy theory, but I think someone actually can change what turns them on over time. It's not a matter of one conscious choice, I agree, but it can happen over time as a sort of association. Gradually if most of one's sex comes through one channel one would start to view the channel itself as a source of pleasure. It would be sort of Pavlovian. So while at the beginning it would be just acting cool without being into it, it would change over time until there was an outright mental difference.


What a big pile of minge. You're saying that people can change their sexuality like Pavlovs dog? yeah yeah, ring a bell I'm straight,ring a bell I'm gay. utter nonsense. your a tail.

1) who cares. What differance does it make if its nature vs nurture? People are whatever they are.

2) Does it make homosexuality better or worse if it was one way or another? I have no idea, do you?

3) Why the constant debates on this? People should live however they want to. Its only when something is rubbed in my face that I am going to take an opinion on how someone else is living their life. And for legal reasons, I wont say any more.
(2) Most Christians believe that all non-heterosexuality is "unnatural" and a choice. If anyone could disprove this, which they have, Christians would theoretically have one less arguement no longer valid. I guess that Christians who still insist on saying that sexuality is a choice do not believe scientific fact or believe that it is all "liberal propaganda" or something. *Shrugs*

And you say this must be proof of choice? In what way? They couldn't all three naturally be bisexual to a very high degree?

I think the issue is that all of these people seem to be gravitating. The issue isn't that they were bisexual so much as that there were so many bisexual and lesbian girls within that particular culture as opposed to outside of it.

What I don't understand is why so many people choose to be interested in/judgmental about other people's lives, despite the fact that a stranger's sexuality affects them not an iota.

Seriously.

Gay people(well guys) only bother me when they hit on me, or when I see them do things like put their hands inside another guys shorts.

Beyond that, who gives a fuck? Certainly doesnt affect my life. More girls for me. Though I must add that a few ugly chicks have asked me if I was gay(I guess cause I didnt hit on them) and this bothered me. They were pretty ugly though. Then again I am generally drunk.

1) who cares. What differance does it make if its nature vs nurture? People are whatever they are.

2) Does it make homosexuality better or worse if it was one way or another? I have no idea, do you?

3) Why the constant debates on this? People should live however they want to. Its only when something is rubbed in my face that I am going to take an opinion on how someone else is living their life. And for legal reasons, I wont say any more.

because if it is nature then lunatic christians that gay bash must accept either;

god is a git and made people gay just so they'd go to hell

or

they are muppets and are wrong AGAIN, like with the whole geocentric thing...

1) who cares. What differance does it make if its nature vs nurture? People are whatever they are.

2) Does it make homosexuality better or worse if it was one way or another? I have no idea, do you?

3) Why the constant debates on this? People should live however they want to. Its only when something is rubbed in my face that I am going to take an opinion on how someone else is living their life. And for legal reasons, I wont say any more.

My point is not to find what is good or bad, its to clear up the field, see what we know, and understand the human mind. That's ALWAYS my point, unless I'm being funny.

I'm not trying to prove any specific side in the debate, I'm just seeing whether I can find evidence I can accept for either. I've seen the evidence that there are many cases of natural homosexuality. Now I want to see whether the other side has any truth. Is it a crime to want to understand the world?

(2) Most Christians believe that all non-heterosexuality is "unnatural" and a choice. If anyone could disprove this, which they have, Christians would theoretically have one less arguement no longer valid. I guess that Christians who still insist on saying that sexuality is a choice do not believe scientific fact or believe that it is all "liberal propaganda" or something. *Shrugs*

To this I would say bullshit.

Most Christians are like "most" anyone else. They want to find a life partner, have a good job, and raise kids.

What you are thinking about are the rabid types that spend all day voicing opinions on internet forums or organizing rallies.

If "most" Christians actually believed/thought as you claimed then there would be a wholesale crusade in the States and elsewhere. Gays would be lynched. judges who disagreed would be burned at the stake, and politicians who disagreed would not be politicians for very long.

To this I would say bullshit.

Most Christians are like "most" anyone else. They want to find a life partner, have a good job, and raise kids.

What you are thinking about are the rabid types that spend all day voicing opinions on internet forums or organizing rallies.

If "most" Christians actually believed/thought as you claimed then there would be a wholesale crusade in the States and elsewhere. Gays would be lynched. judges who disagreed would be burned at the stake, and politicians who disagreed would not be politicians for very long.

How did I miss that one? Must be getting sloppy.

Good job Isanyonehome!

No, I didn't choose my bisexuality. I've tried almost everything in my power short of actual therapy to *not* be attracted to women. None of it worked. I've cried over it many a time, had sleepless nights over it, felt guilty and dirty and rotten inside, inwardly cringed everytime someone makes a "gay" joke in my presence. And I've finally come to the conclusion that I can't change myself. The only one who can change me is God, and since he's chosen not to as yet I can only assume that He accepts me as I am, and that my same sex attractions do not make me unworthy to be a Christian. I don't think anyone really chooses to be gay. A very few people who think it's uber-cool to be different might manage to convince themselves that they're gay, but chances are this won't last and they'll switch back to acting their true sexuality.

To this I would say bullshit.

Most Christians are like "most" anyone else. They want to find a life partner, have a good job, and raise kids.

What you are thinking about are the rabid types that spend all day voicing opinions on internet forums or organizing rallies.

If "most" Christians actually believed/thought as you claimed then there would be a wholesale crusade in the States and elsewhere. Gays would be lynched. judges who disagreed would be burned at the stake, and politicians who disagreed would not be politicians for very long.
No, most Christians, if I am not mistaken, believe in the interpretation of their bible that homosexuality is an abomination.

I think the issue is that all of these people seem to be gravitating. The issue isn't that they were bisexual so much as that there were so many bisexual and lesbian girls within that particular culture as opposed to outside of it.
(1) What culture are you referring to, exactly?
(2) What you mean is there are so many openly lesbian and bisexual girls within that culture. That doesn't mean there are any more than any other culture, it just means they are more willing to allow themselves to be labeled as such.

(1) What culture are you referring to, exactly?
(2) What you mean is there are so many openly lesbian and bisexual girls within that culture. That doesn't mean there are any more than any other culture, it just means they are more willing to allow themselves to be labeled as such.

(1) In this case, the Goth/outcast/druggie culture of my school.
(2) I just find it hard to believe that so many people suppress their sexuality in other groups and not in that one. Not that it couldn't be true, or it couldn't be that the lesbians and bisexaul girls in my school don't just join that culture because it accepts them, but It seems to me that for many of these people it was more of a conscious decision. As another example, another two of these girls who had been best friends for a while became bisexual at almost the exact same time. If this follows the general pattern of other decisions the two have made that would indicate that one became bisexual and then pressured the other into it.

No, most Christians, if I am not mistaken, believe in the interpretation of their bible that homosexuality is an abomination.

Not really. Only a very small percentage of Christians are bible literalists. Most ascribe to a sort of liberal-humanist ethical system that they tie in occasionally to certain bible passages.

(1) In this case, the Goth/outcast/druggie culture of my school.
(2) I just find it hard to believe that so many people suppress their sexuality in other groups and not in that one. Not that it couldn't be true, or it couldn't be that the lesbians and bisexaul girls in my school don't just join that culture because it accepts them, but It seems to me that for many of these people it was more of a conscious decision. As another example, another two of these girls who had been best friends for a while became bisexual at almost the exact same time. If this follows the general pattern of other decisions the two have made that would indicate that one became bisexual and then pressured the other into it.
(1) Why is that so hard to believe?
(2) In my view, nobody "becomes" bisexual, they simply are.
(3) You haven't considered that they merely influenced each other to embrace their true nature?

Not really. Only a very small percentage of Christians are bible literalists. Most ascribe to a sort of liberal-humanist ethical system that they tie in occasionally to certain bible passages.
That's very odd, as all of the Christians I have ever known (and I have known quite a few) were very strongly opposed to homosexuality/bisexuality.

There have been a few threads already that, either because they were supposed to or because they got sidetracked, debated whether or not homosexuality is a choice or not. Personally I got the idea from these debates and from homosexuals I know that it can be either, but I haven't actually heard a homosexual themself say that for them it was a choice. I'm pretty sure some homosexuals who did choose to be homosexual exist, so if you're out there, post here.Sexuality does not exist. It is all an illusion.



Case closed.



~Czardas, Supreme Ruler of the Universe

(1) In this case, the Goth/outcast/druggie culture of my school.
(2) I just find it hard to believe that so many people suppress their sexuality in other groups and not in that one. Not that it couldn't be true, or it couldn't be that the lesbians and bisexaul girls in my school don't just join that culture because it accepts them, but It seems to me that for many of these people it was more of a conscious decision. As another example, another two of these girls who had been best friends for a while became bisexual at almost the exact same time. If this follows the general pattern of other decisions the two have made that would indicate that one became bisexual and then pressured the other into it.

How old are these girls? A lot of teenaged girls aged about 13-14 ish go through a stage where they get all mixed up and have feelings for other girls or older women. The majority grow out of this and turn out to be straight. In fact, most who turn out to be lesbians probably also grow out of this stage and move into a different "type" of same sex attraction. Maybe they're simply being influenced by peer pressure at a time when they are already naturally unsure about their sexuality. By the time they're about 16, most girls have got through the confusion and know what their sexuality is.

How old are these girls? A lot of teenaged girls aged about 13-14 ish go through a stage where they get all mixed up and have feelings for other girls or older women. The majority grow out of this and turn out to be straight. In fact, most who turn out to be lesbians probably also grow out of this stage and move into a different "type" of same sex attraction. Maybe they're simply being influenced by peer pressure at a time when they are already naturally unsure about their sexuality. By the time they're about 16, most girls have got through the confusion and know what their sexuality is.

So, just to misinterpret a little, at that age the possibility of choice exists? Because, while those girls aren't that age now, they were when they first began to profess their bisexuality. This seems to mean that in that age a person's sexuality is malleable enough that a person could drive it either way. Also if this only happens to girls this would explain a statistic I heard somewhere that while 75% of lesbians are so by choice only 25% of gays are.

My earliest memories....

I was just a zygote. I remember that I was thinking "crap! I'm just a glob of cells! What is the deal here?" That's when Jesus showed up with my shiny new soul. He stayed and chatted for a bit. In the course of the conversation he asked me to decide if I wanted to be gay or not. I wasn't completely sure what he meant, so I declined.

My earliest memories....

I was just a zygote. I remember that I was thinking "crap! I'm just a glob of cells! What is the deal here?" That's when Jesus showed up with my shiny new soul. He stayed and chatted for a bit. In the course of the conversation he asked me to decide if I wanted to be gay or not. I wasn't completely sure what he meant, so I declined.
*Laughs*

(1) Why is that so hard to believe?
(2) In my view, nobody "becomes" bisexual, they simply are.
(3) You haven't considered that they merely influenced each other to embrace their true nature?

(1) Just because of what I know about how these people make decisions. It's not concrete evidence because that's the purpose of this thread.
(2) You saw my explanation, right? Anyway, if you want it rephrased, just replace "becoming bisexual" with "coming out of the closet"
(3) I did consider that in that post, actually.

So, just to misinterpret a little, at that age the possibility of choice exists? Because, while those girls aren't that age now, they were when they first began to profess their bisexuality. This seems to mean that in that age a person's sexuality is malleable enough that a person could drive it either way. Also if this only happens to girls this would explain a statistic I heard somewhere that while 75% of lesbians are so by choice only 25% of gays are.

Meh, I was speaking mostly from the experience of me and my friends. I don't know the reasons behind it, but when you're that age, the lesbian thing is more about really admiring someone and looking up to them, whereas when you're older, it's more the kind of companionship, sexual attraction and romantic love that drives it. So I guess what you suggest is possible, that one could develop into the other, although it is totally misinterpreting what I said, and I think it's fairly unlikley. :p I have to admit to not really knowing on this one. I have noticed that women tend to exist on more of a continum of sexuality, while men tend to be more polarised: strongly attracted to women or strongly attracted to men. I guess our brains are just wired differently, and some brains are wired more differently than most. ;)

There is also evidence to suggest that physiological factors like hormones play a role in the development of sexuality, as well as limited evidence for a genetic link and the influence of psychosocial factors. We don't really know, but it's pretty obvious it's not a simple, cut-and-dried conscious choice.

How old are those girls now? If they're still teens, they might just be taking longer to grow out of the confused stage than most (probably due to them confusing themselves more), or they might have somehow "made" themselves bi (unlikley), they might actually just be bi and remain bi permenantly, or they might be too embaressed to admit that they're actually straight as a yard stick. :p I have no idea which one, if any, of the above are true.

I chose the shirt I put on today. It was a good choice.

(1) Just because of what I know about how these people make decisions. It's not concrete evidence because that's the purpose of this thread.
(2) You saw my explanation, right? Anyway, if you want it rephrased, just replace "becoming bisexual" with "coming out of the closet"
(3) I did consider that in that post, actually.
(2+3) I saw your explanation, which indicated that you honestly believe that they pressured each other into "becoming" bisexual. They may have influenced each other in their decision to "come out of the closet" (I hate that phrase, but I'm quite not sure why.), but they cannot define each other's true sexual preference.

I don't know the reasons behind it, but when you're that age, the lesbian thing is more about really admiring someone and looking up to them, whereas when you're older, it's more the kind of companionship, sexual attraction and romantic love that drives it.

With them it was more of distinctly not looking up to or admiring various persons of authority and wanting to be shocking, rebellious, and sexy. And I'm not sure that with them any of the romantic love or companionship is involved either.

Not a choice with me.

(2+3) I saw your explanation, which indicated that you honestly believe that they pressured each other into "becoming" bisexual. They may have influenced each other in their decision to "come out of the closet" (I hate that phrase, but I'm quite not sure why.), but they cannot define each other's true sexual preference.

(2) was about my post much earlier in the thread about the Pavlovian thing. The point is that while they probably started out just acting like they were lesbian/bi to be rebellious it eventually became something that is probably real nomosexuality.

or they might be too embaressed to admit that they're actually straight as a yard stick. :p I have no idea which one, if any, of the above are true.

While with some that may be the case, in some of them it seems to have gone beyond just pretending. I'm thinking of a specific former member of this group who no longer hangs out with them and is not currently involved with any other women but still not only claims to be bi (not necessarily the best measure I agree) but shows more unconscious expressions, mainly in her art.

(2) was about my post much earlier in the thread about the Pavlovian thing. The point is that while they probably started out just acting like they were lesbian/bi to be rebellious it eventually became something that is probably real nomosexuality.
Then that is not actually choice. That is realization.

Then that is not actually choice. That is realization.

No, its really neither, its conditioning. Let me just summarize what I said earlier, since you seem to have lost it: someone begins getting their sex (or whatever) through a specific method. Eventually after doing this enough the method itself becomes a turn on, separate from the act itself. I've experienced this with lesser biases myself.

No, its really neither, its conditioning. Let me just summarize what I said earlier, since you seem to have lost it: someone begins getting their sex (or whatever) through a specific method. Eventually after doing this enough the method itself becomes a turn on, separate from the act itself. I've experienced this with lesser biases myself.
Interesting. Yet you say you believe that some people choose their sexuality.

Interesting. Yet you say you believe that some people choose their sexuality.

That was what I meant by choose: choose to live in a certain way and adjust to that life. Like you can choose to be a resident of Hawaii.

That was what I meant by choose: choose to live in a certain way and adjust to that life. Like you can choose to be a resident of Hawaii.
Actually, I can't. I am stuck living in Alabama until my parents kick me out of the house/I go to college.

Actually, I can't. I am stuck living in Alabama until my parents kick me out of the house/I go to college.

I'm sorry for you.

There have been a few threads already that, either because they were supposed to or because they got sidetracked, debated whether or not homosexuality is a choice or not. Personally I got the idea from these debates and from homosexuals I know that it can be either, but I haven't actually heard a homosexual themself say that for them it was a choice. I'm pretty sure some homosexuals who did choose to be homosexual exist, so if you're out there, post here.


Choose? You gotta be kidding. In my case I knew by about 12 and it was there before I had any knowledge of this alternate sexuality. It was a spontaneous occurrence though in hindsight I'd say it was determined by or before age four. As far as family or social trauma that might have caused it I can't think of anything in my history that would have such a profound effect. When I hear of people say it's due to experiential factors, to me it makes about as little sense as breaking your mother's back from stepping on sidewalk cracks. I think if it was CHOICE I would have had a much easier time being rid of it because believe me I didn't ask for it and it took a very loooong time to learn how to live with it. Needless to say people who carry on about it being a choice really piss me off and usually are among the most ignorant people I've met.

I guess there's some confusion on what you define as homosexuality. Sexual orientation is not choice; to have sex is a choice. A predominantly heterosexual individual who decides through free will or suggestion to explore homosexuality (sex) does so by choice and is by defintion bisexual, not homosexual. There's a bit of a process of self-identification which is defined by sexual orientation and that is choice, but it's pretty cut and dried at the extreme ends of the sexual continuum.