NationStates Jolt Archive

I have heard many Americans on this forum and elsewhere state that one of the reasons they believe their country is the greatest in the world is that so many people risk there lives to attempt to journey to America, the 'Land of the free and the home of the brave'. The thing is, this is just as true, if not more true in the UK, and British citizens have never seen this as a cause for patriotism. Is this an idea I have right, or just another piece of Trans-Atlantic confusion

you have a problem with an american taking pride in something you dont?

I have heard many Americans on this forum and elsewhere state that one of the reasons they believe their country is the greatest in the world is that so many people risk there lives to attempt to journey to America, the 'Land of the free and the home of the brave'. The thing is, this is just as true, if not more true in the UK, and British citizens have never seen this as a cause for patriotism. Is this an idea I have right, or just another piece of Trans-Atlantic confusion

How many Cubans arrive in the UK via a raft?

What? "Land of the Free"? Whoever told you that is your enemy! ;) :D

*Home of the Braves. :D

They're wrong. We're most certainly not the greatest country. Nor is any country the greatest country.

Yet I'm still patriotic without blind pride. Ain't that a bitch?

you have a problem with an american taking pride in something you dont?

Im just curious about why they take pride in something which is equally true elsewhere. I would find something more unique myself.

They're wrong. We're most certainly not the greatest country. Nor is any country the greatest country.

Yet I'm still patriotic without blind pride. Ain't that a bitch?
As long as it doesn't turn into nationalism.

How many Cubans arrive in the UK via a raft?
Cuba isn't anywhere near the UK, so thats why they come here.

Because they have been brainwashed by the government. I know because I was one of them, until I saw the true way....

How many Cubans arrive in the UK via a raft?

Not many, but Cuba is very far from the UK. We have mostly refugees from the Balkans, Casucuses, North Africa and Central Asia.

In the words of Alexis de Tocqueville: "America is great because it is good. When it ceases being good, it will no longer be great."

The concept of people risking their lives to reach the US is part of the issue - but the more important part is that those that finally reach the shores of the US can find liberty there.

Although - this is perhaps becoming more of a hope than a reality.

Thus, many Americans feel pride for their nation, because it is 'great'... and it is great, because it is good.

On the other hand, there are many disenchanted citizens of the US... who feel that the US is lacking it's former greatness, because they see it as not as 'good' a nation as it once was.

What I don't really understand is why Americans are proud on a nation that is hardly any different from most other nations of the developed world?

I can understand that this kind of pride originated back when the United States were one of the first democracies on the planet, when they were the first country to have a constitution, when freedom and justice were granted to... well, almost everyone (leaving aside blacks, native Americans, women and other minorities).
But that was long long long ago... on what grounds do American consider their nation great (and greater than other nations) now?

I'm proud of my country, and I like where I live, but I would never say it is the "greatest in the world". I've never been to another country, so how would I know? Anyway, I have a hard time believing that people aren't even a little patriotic in the UK.

I'm not sure why it would be so different in the U.S. than in the UK. Maybe it's because we feel like we had to overcome more to have a great country, I don't know. I'm only patriotic because I love where I live, and I think of the U.S. as my home........

Im just curious about why they take pride in something which is equally true elsewhere. I would find something more unique myself.
its equally true in the rest of the americas, in new zealand, in australia. dont canadians take pride in their immigrant roots?

Not many, but Cuba is very far from the UK. We have mostly refugees from the Balkans, Casucuses, North Africa and Central Asia.

Do they arrive on inner tubes?

Cuba isn't anywhere near the UK, so thats why they come here.


Thanks for the heads up. You must be a rocket surgeon!

Thanks for the heads up. You must be a rocket surgeon!

True, there are very few Cubans in Europe. They would have a hard time to cross the Atlantic... so you are saying you are proud on the geographic proximity of your country to a small communist island? Well, I've heard stranger things today.
If your point was to point out that the United States offer a better standard of living than a starving, oppressed Caribean nation, you are right. However, I feel obliged to inform you that your country is NOT the only one on the world to have a good standard of living (at least for some part of the population), nor is it the only one people are trying to reach in search of a good live.
Europe has immigrants from all over the world as well, and many of them take measures just as drastic as the Cuban rafts to reach it.

http://english.people.com.cn/200206/23/eng20020623_98374.shtml

True, there are very few Cubans in Europe. They would have a hard time to cross the Atlantic... so you are saying you are proud on the geographic proximity of your country to a small communist island? Well, I've heard stranger things today.
If your point was to point out that the United States offer a better standard of living than a starving, oppressed Caribean nation, you are right. However, I feel obliged to inform you that your country is NOT the only one on the world to have a good standard of living (at least for some part of the population), nor is it the only one people are trying to reach in search of a good live.
Europe has immigrants from all over the world as well, and many of them take measures just as drastic as the Cuban rafts to reach it.

http://english.people.com.cn/200206/23/eng20020623_98374.shtml

you seem to be angry that americans take pride in our immigrant past. does it somehow take away from you that we are?

i dont think it implies that we are the ONLY nation that takes in immigrants or that we are the ONLY nation that people sacrifice to get to. it just means that we are proud of it.

Thanks for the heads up. You must be a rocket surgeon!
Well you don't seem to understand geography, Sonny Jim.

I think the reason why there is a problem with the american pride presented here is that (this is a theory, either agree or disagree, I don't know what I should do myself) they also believe that everyone else in developed countries want to risk their life to come there. I don't know many europeans who would be too interested in risking their life to come to the states, but maybe the issue is that the americans present their pride to the europeans in such a way as to say "oh, but you're just dying to get over here, aren't you?"

Does this seem like a valid theory, or just complete bullshit? Personally, i've never been presented with the issue and I hope that I never will be.

I have heard many Americans on this forum and elsewhere state that one of the reasons they believe their country is the greatest in the world is that so many people risk there lives to attempt to journey to America, the 'Land of the free and the home of the brave'. The thing is, this is just as true, if not more true in the UK, and British citizens have never seen this as a cause for patriotism. Is this an idea I have right, or just another piece of Trans-Atlantic confusion

That isn't true for me. I take pride in our republic's founding principles. (Though this is highly forgotten in mainstream American culture, and also the population and politics are not the same as of old.) It is of my opinion that we have the BEST damned origins a country can have. I think ancient Greece comes second to the US. The fact we had such badasses that created this nation that even dwarfs the WW2 generation is something I personally take pride in.

That said. We need to leave the world alone, and they definitly need to leave us the hell alone in response. EVERYBODY needs to go back to minding their own damned business. I don't care what countries do as long as they don't pull any of their crap on us. Also we need to kind of withdraw from the UN.

It is of my opinion that we have the BEST damned origins a country can have. I think ancient Greece comes second to the US. The fact we had such badasses that created this nation that even dwarfs the WW2 generation is something I personally take pride in.


Best damned origins ever?

Surely you don't mean that?

Personally I don't find the massacre of the indigenous population almost to the point of extinction a glorious point in history. Not to mention that whole slavery racket. Gosh darn it. ;)

That phrase is from a time when the US was the only republic in the world. It's stuck with us because it's the last line of the national anthem. There's no underlying feeling of superiority behind it, it just reminds us of the founding fathers.

You must be a rocket surgeon!

:D I like that!

However, I feel obliged to inform you that your country is NOT the only one on the world to have a good standard of living (at least for some part of the population), nor is it the only one people are trying to reach in search of a good live. [/url]

You are right. In fact, the US doesn't even have the highest standard of living in the world. I think it is some Scandinavian and/or European countries have us beat.

That said, I am proud to be an American. I'm very proud of some of the things our country has accomplished. While I firmly believe we are a great country, we are not the only great country. I don't think anyone could say their country is the greatest as all counties have their faults as well as their good points.

That said. We need to leave the world alone, and they definitly need to leave us the hell alone in response. EVERYBODY needs to go back to minding their own damned business. I don't care what countries do as long as they don't pull any of their crap on us. Also we need to kind of withdraw from the UN.

Isolationism never worked. Isolationism in today’s global economy would be impossible. Perhaps nations need to respect each other more. As far as the UN goes, I think it has outlived its usefulness, but that is another thread.

most of that "people coming to the US at great sacrifice" stuff is in the past anyway. we have very limited immigration right now and the only "refugees" that we accept without question are cubans (if they make it to the beach) and that is only because of politics not out of any sympathy for them.

i dont know that its a huge portion of american pride. lots of people have pride that their family came from tough times in europe 100 years ago and have prospered in the US. that is quite different from the erroneous belief that we are the refuge of the world today.

I have heard many Americans on this forum and elsewhere state that one of the reasons they believe their country is the greatest in the world is that so many people risk there lives to attempt to journey to America, the 'Land of the free and the home of the brave'. The thing is, this is just as true, if not more true in the UK, and British citizens have never seen this as a cause for patriotism. Is this an idea I have right, or just another piece of Trans-Atlantic confusion

I visited my sister (who's studying over there) a couple of years ago and it's frightening how seriously they take things. Over here, you can basically criticise what the government's doing as much as you want, but it seems that in the U.S. everybody 'goes with the flow' and you stick out like a sore thumb if you disagree with the prevailing mood.

The American students I met were like 'Hey, you're British, so nice to meet you' but there was this definite feeling of hostility towards anyone who didn't basically agree that American is best. I put my foot in it several times and learnt to be a bit more careful afterwards.

Sometimes, it seems like it would just be easier if I were one of those chest-thumping, flag-waving cowboy Americans, since so many people automatically assume I am simply by being an American.

Is this an idea I have right, or just another piece of Trans-Atlantic confusion
The reason for American pride is the widespread delusion that they were the only country that ever had a hard fight for its independence.

What? "Land of the Free"? Whoever told you that is your enemy! ;) :D

Now something must be done
About vengeance, a badge and a gun
'Cause I'll rip the mike, rip the stage, rip the system
I was born to rage against 'em

~Know Your Enemy, by Rage Against the Machine

How many Cubans arrive in the UK via a raft?

About the same number of Eastern Europeans who enter the US via underground train tunnels.

Best damned origins ever?

Surely you don't mean that?

Personally I don't find the massacre of the indigenous population almost to the point of extinction a glorious point in history. Not to mention that whole slavery racket. Gosh darn it. ;)

Please don't forget who imported the slavery racket here. Can we say Britain? How 'bout that Spain? Thought we could.

Of course, we should have given it up much earlier than we did...

As for the indigeonous population, well hey, guess who started that too? Would that have been, oh, I don't know, the Dutch, Spanish, French and British before the US was a country? (Though again, we should have stopped much earlier).

Oh, Pot......

you seem to be angry that americans take pride in our immigrant past. does it somehow take away from you that we are?

i dont think it implies that we are the ONLY nation that takes in immigrants or that we are the ONLY nation that people sacrifice to get to. it just means that we are proud of it.

I do think it's a bit silly for us to take pride in an immigrant past when at the time there were lots of doomsayers complaining about "inferior breeds" contaminating our national character, and now we have the exact same thing in the guise of "I'm not opposed to immigration, I just oppose illegal immigration. What? make more immigration legal? Fuck no!"

Please don't forget who imported the slavery racket here. Can we say Britain? How 'bout that Spain? Thought we could.

Of course, we should have given it up much earlier than we did...

As for the indigeonous population, well hey, guess who started that too? Would that have been, oh, I don't know, the Dutch, Spainish, French and British before the US was a country? (Though again, we should have stopped much earlier).

Oh, Pot......

[I know. ;)]

most of that "people coming to the US at great sacrifice" stuff is in the past anyway. we have very limited immigration right now and the only "refugees" that we accept without question are cubans (if they make it to the beach) and that is only because of politics not out of any sympathy for them.

i dont know that its a huge portion of american pride. lots of people have pride that their family came from tough times in europe 100 years ago and have prospered in the US. that is quite different from the erroneous belief that we are the refuge of the world today.

Ya, it's not so much a point of pride that America is such a caring nation that we allow the "tired poor huddled masses yearning to breathe free" to come in, but rather that there must be something good about the place if people are actually willing to move here.

Of course they sputter and curse if you point out that we're siphoning off all the resources of those countries, so if they want to go where the work is, they have to come here. If you're going to shit in an outhouse, you have to dig a new hole every now and then.

Please don't forget who imported the slavery racket here. Can we say Britain? How 'bout that Spain? Thought we could.

Of course, we should have given it up much earlier than we did...

As for the indigeonous population, well hey, guess who started that too? Would that have been, oh, I don't know, the Dutch, Spainish, French and British before the US was a country? (Though again, we should have stopped much earlier).

Oh, Pot......

So, you are somehow claiming that the people-living-in-America-when-it-was-a-colony suddenly left, and a new lot arrived when it became independent?

Because, surely, there is no point in differentiating between the Dutch/Spanish/French/British colonists and the post-independence nationals, otherwise?

The point being... the Dutch, Spanish, French and British colonists who carried out a policy of genocide in the nation now known as the USA, are the SAME people that were still here, and still doing it, later.

Not to say there was no other faction involved, but that the war against the natives was carried out on THIS soil, by THIS people. (Regardless of what THIS people were called, then).

So, you are somehow claiming that the people-living-in-America-when-it-was-a-colony suddenly left, and a new lot arrived when it became independent?

Because, surely, there is no point in differentiating between the Dutch/Spanish/French/British colonists and the post-independence nationals, otherwise?

The point being... the Dutch, Spanish, French and British colonists who carried out a policy of genocide in the nation now known as the USA, are the SAME people that were still here, and still doing it, later.

Not to say there was no other faction involved, but that the war against the natives was carried out on THIS soil, by THIS people. (Regardless of what THIS people were called, then).

I am suggesting that when we bought the Louisiana Purchase, yes, many French soldiers left. And when we bought Florida, yes, many of the Spanish left. And many Dutch also left. Certainly the ones who were in charge of the various military bodies did.

I am also pointing out the hypocrisy that those who bash America for these things (and rightly, btw) forget: that these concepts and these things began in Europe -- you know -- where much of the criticism of the US comes.

Look at it this way: the US is the child of the UK, Spain, France and the Dutch. Why is it many Europeans of those extractions delight in criticizing the US over the very things they taught them, hmmmmmm?

It's like smoking in front of your kids, then wailing and crying, "Where did they learn that horrible habit!" At least acknowledge that other nations share the responsibility somewhat for the way the US got started, and can't simply say, "Oops, no, we had nothing to do with that!"

I am also pointing out the hypocrisy that those who bash America for these things (and rightly, btw) forget: that these concepts and these things began in Europe -- you know -- where much of the criticism of the US comes.

Look at it this way: the US is the child of the UK, Spain, France and the Dutch. Why is it many Europeans of those extractions delight in criticizing the US over the very things they taught them, hmmmmmm?

Yeah, sorry, the "OMFG j00 hypocritters!" tactic won't work here. I'm not a nationalist and I despise all imperialism.

*Editted for emphasis.

The reason for American pride is the widespread delusion that they were the only country that ever had a hard fight for its independence.

Yeah, there's that misconception. That pride has its roots, though, not in the fact of the fight for independence itself, but for who the US won it from -- arguably the most powerful nation on the planet at the time.

And please, please don't tell me there's no patriotism in the UK or that there are none there who are obnoxious about it. True, there aren't nearly as many products emblazoned with the Union Jack as there are Old Glory, but they do exist.

When a nation is the primary exporter of culture, especially broadcast and entertainment culture, of course its ideas, slogans and jingoistic jargoneering will be as widespread as anything else it produces.

Just realize that for every Toby Keith, Bill O'Reilly or Rush Limbaugh there's a South Park (Trey Parker and Matt Stone, as well as Seth McFarlane, Matt Groening, George Carlin and many others) who will gladly, gleefully and gloriously skewer anything that needs to be taken down a peg about the US.

And please, please don't tell me there's no patriotism in the UK or that there are none there who are obnoxious about it. True, there aren't nearly as many products emblazoned with the Union Jack as there are Old Glory, but they do exist.


There is indeed plenty of nationalism (and racism) over here, although the "how dare you mess with us you puny <nationality>?! We're the fucking UK!" attitude doesn't seem as common anymore (unless you're Irish).

Yeah, sorry, the "OMFG j00 hypocritters!" tactic won't work here. I'm not a nationalist and I despise all imperialism.

And I say again: Pot calling the kettle black.

:) Because of course there IS no racism anywhere else in the world, nor is there slavery, nor militarism.

Nice to see people with their happy little delusions of snow-white spotless hands.

And I say again: Pot calling the kettle black.

:) Because of course there IS no racism anywhere else in the world, nor is there slavery, nor militarism.

Nice to see people with their happy little delusions of snow-white spotless hands.

Yes, that's exactly what I said. :rolleyes:

And I say again: Pot calling the kettle black.

:) Because of course there IS no racism anywhere else in the world, nor is there slavery, nor militarism.

Nice to see people with their happy little delusions of snow-white spotless hands.
Erm, I don't see quite where you're getting that. The way I read RPP's post, he hates when that goes on anywhere, not just in the US. I don't see any hypocrisy.

What? "Land of the Free"? Whoever told you that is your enemy! ;) :D

*Home of the Braves. :D

Now something must be done
About vengeance, a badge and a gun
'Cause I'll rip the mike, rip the stage, rip the system
I was born to rage against 'em

:D :cool:

Edit: Damnit, I got beaten to it! Damn you people!

you seem to be angry that americans take pride in our immigrant past. does it somehow take away from you that we are?

i dont think it implies that we are the ONLY nation that takes in immigrants or that we are the ONLY nation that people sacrifice to get to. it just means that we are proud of it.

Sorry, you misunderstood. I think the time when the United States WERE an immigrant nation was the time they were really great. But, as I pointed out, that was the past. Today, they are not that much different from many other nations, so what is it today that justifies this extrovert kind of patriotism?

I am suggesting that when we bought the Louisiana Purchase, yes, many French soldiers left. And when we bought Florida, yes, many of the Spanish left. And many Dutch also left. Certainly the ones who were in charge of the various military bodies did.

I am also pointing out the hypocrisy that those who bash America for these things (and rightly, btw) forget: that these concepts and these things began in Europe -- you know -- where much of the criticism of the US comes.

Look at it this way: the US is the child of the UK, Spain, France and the Dutch. Why is it many Europeans of those extractions delight in criticizing the US over the very things they taught them, hmmmmmm?

It's like smoking in front of your kids, then wailing and crying, "Where did they learn that horrible habit!" At least acknowledge that other nations share the responsibility somewhat for the way the US got started, and can't simply say, "Oops, no, we had nothing to do with that!"

Except, from my point of view... this looks like the US just trying to somehow shed it's evil past.

"Yeah, sure we carried out a genocide on an initially friendly native people... but, erm... <gestures towards other nations> ...THEY started it...."

Other nations ALSO have barbaric pasts... that doesn't somehow absolve the US of it's horrible origin... and I think that is where the post that started this side-line was directed.

Of course they sputter and curse if you point out that we're siphoning off all the resources of those countries, so if they want to go where the work is, they have to come here. If you're going to shit in an outhouse, you have to dig a new hole every now and then.

Depends on the type of work you are refering to as a lot of factory work (manufacturing, clothing, even aircraft components are not being made in the US. The US does have a shortage of labor in the high tech areas though.

Best damned origins ever?

Surely you don't mean that?

Personally I don't find the massacre of the indigenous population almost to the point of extinction a glorious point in history. Not to mention that whole slavery racket. Gosh darn it. ;)

Of course I goddamned mean it. I am not talking about our entire history. I am talking about our ORIGINS. Dating 1774 to the time James Madison left office. You will find NO other country that had a greater origin of foundation. PERIOD. The people, the principles, the direness of the fight, and the results were amazing. Just because the founders died and slavery and the geneocide of Native Americans continued unlike Washington, Jefferson, Dr. Franklin, and James wanted does not blemish their achievements or our origins.

Isolationism never worked. Isolationism in today’s global economy would be impossible. Perhaps nations need to respect each other more. As far as the UN goes, I think it has outlived its usefulness, but that is another thread.

I NEVER supported complete isolationalism. I only support partial isolationalism. We still trade worldwide with everybody, but we stop getting involved politically unless we find it within our intrests. In short, we gain something tangible for joining up in some foriegn mess.

You will find nobody whom seriously considers complete isolationalism unless they are friggin spartans.

Because they have been brainwashed by the government. I know because I was one of them, until I saw the true way....

No we arn't, now I could really go for some burgers at McDonalds or perhaps even join the Navy.

True way? Did you immagrate to Mexico or something because those millions of immagrants coming in each year must have been looking at you funny.

Yeah the U.S. sucks, let's go join the wonderful system Russia had set up in the 1940's. Yayyy for forced manual labor :D !!!!

Europeans question American patriotic values probably because (at least what I think) it is so unrestrained. Europeans take great delight in criticising their repective governments, and this produces a strong sense of political insight. Americans seem to give praise to their nation without questioning the nation's practices. Europeans resent the American patriotic values partly because it reminds them of the European national values that ultimately created two global wars...

And we now see America and China squaring up, both ideologically and geo-strategically, China on the ascent, and a lot of paranoid American groups feeling that the Good that their nation represents is under threat (and what's worse: maybe it is).

[QUOTE=Americai] You will find NO other country that had a greater origin of foundation. PERIOD. The people, the principles, the direness of the fight, and the results were amazing. Just because the founders died and slavery and the geneocide of Native Americans continued unlike Washington, Jefferson, Dr. Franklin, and James wanted does not blemish their achievements or our origins.


You are talking about an idea. A wonderful idea but one that in your post, you yourself admit didn't take root.

This America V Europe nonsense has been thudding dully on since NS began and I wonder why. I think Europe and America are far more divided than we realise. It's true that we all 'just love each other' on a personal basis when we visit each others countries but on forums like this we can say what we really feel thanks to anonymity. Both 'blocs' enjoy a standard of living never before seen in history. Both 'blocs' have their history. The Euros have evolved socially into a relatively 'leftish' paradigm which Americans see as 'wishy-washy' and innefective. The USA has evolved a society that stands to the right of Europe and Euros perceive that as overbearing and arrogant. Now that we are blessed with the wonder of the web, we can talk till our arses fall off and discussions often prise open national differences that jar on nerves. Broadly, you can include all the Anglo-Saxon nations in the 'Euro camp' except, of course, the US, in their world and social views.

What I don't really understand is why Americans are proud on a nation that is hardly any different from most other nations of the developed world?

I can understand that this kind of pride originated back when the United States were one of the first democracies on the planet, when they were the first country to have a constitution, when freedom and justice were granted to... well, almost everyone (leaving aside blacks, native Americans, women and other minorities).
But that was long long long ago... on what grounds do American consider their nation great (and greater than other nations) now?


I'm proud of my nation because it is MY nation. The illusion of power I hold when I vote is good and the country's history is pride inducing, but I honestly don't know exactly what makes me think my nation is great... blind arrogance maybe? *shrugs* Eh, it doesn't really matter I just love America (I'm fully aware there are MANY problems with my country but I'd rather live here than anywhere).

P.S. – I’ve never heard anyone state their pride because people risk their lives to come here, and I’m not particularly impressed that they do considering the “opportunities” found in America

I'm proud of my country because its mine. Sure, it has made mistakes and done bad things, but every country has done that. I don't like Bush but, my country is so much more than that. It's home.

Probably because we are a nation of those people who came here looking for... something (whatever it was). Go back 150 years in just about all American families and you'll find a newcomer. Many of these stories are remembered as family legends passed down, and of course on the way they're polished to gold.

It's also impressive that so many people came. The waves were huge, the largest (peaceful) migration of people. And speaking from personal experiance, leaving your country for a new one, and on that is very different in culture and languge from your own, is hard.

Now should the US take pride in this now, given that vast changes, and use it for the basis of national pride is another argument.

I think we should all stop being patriotic. Nationalism is an outdated idea. We should think beyond national border and talk about globalism and internationalism, which simply brings "love for the nation" on to a world scale "love for the globe". that will simply put a stop to all wars and pollution.

Most Americans realize that there's several other countries just as free as ours. It's no reason to stop taking pride in the fact that we are free. The more I think about it, the more I realize the original poster is either suggesting that one should only take patriotic pride in things that can be called exclusively their own...which is ridiculous....

...or more than likely, it's just another person with an inarticulate axe to grind against America. There was once a time when the UK was the world's dominant power.

Now, I have no complaint against someone ripping the US to shreds on these boards on the issues framing the world today. But don't tell us we need to reevaluate our patriotism. On every country of earth, you will hear patriotic songs and speeches, and they're never "We're number 2."

On every country of earth, you will hear patriotic songs and speeches, and they're never "We're number 2."

I beg to differ... I was born and grew up in Germany. I do realise that Germany is a very special case to say the least when it comes to patriotism of any kind.

But fact is, I grew up without ever hearing any "patriotic speeches" whatsoever, and apart from football games, I never ever heard the national anthem (never figuered out what they are supposed to be good for, anyway).

So now, whenever I hear "patriotic speeches" in ANY other country, especially if they are as... eloquent and fiery as they tend to be in the US, they scare the living daylight out of me. I find them extremely aggressive, often an insult to other countries, militant, arrogant and discrimating. But that is just me, I'm asking nobody to change their ways!!!
I was brought up to use my head rather than my heart when it comes to big issues and politics, and I tend to find patriotism irrational at best. I guess if I wanted to, I could find more than one thing to be proud about in Germany today (the standard of living, the social security, the low crime rate, and historically being a founding member of the EU and of course the peaceful revolution in Eastern Germany and the reunification...) but why would I want to? I didn't take part in any of this, I wasn't part of any of these achievements, on what grounds should I personally be proud on what other people did?

I think the reason why there is a problem with the american pride presented here is that (this is a theory, either agree or disagree, I don't know what I should do myself) they also believe that everyone else in developed countries want to risk their life to come there. I don't know many europeans who would be too interested in risking their life to come to the states, but maybe the issue is that the americans present their pride to the europeans in such a way as to say "oh, but you're just dying to get over here, aren't you?"

Does this seem like a valid theory, or just complete bullshit? Personally, i've never been presented with the issue and I hope that I never will be.

No all the europeans are dying to go to Australia
~2 pounds = ~5 Aus dollars
Better climate
Less people
Not as many americans ;)

Proof
50,000 British overstay visas

However we beat them at every sport known.

You are talking about an idea. A wonderful idea but one that in your post, you yourself admit didn't take root.

I am NOT praising all of American history. Granted it has given us as a country a LOT of experience other countries don't have. But this does NOT detract from our origins. Why don't YOU come up with a better countries origins? You won't. Because we are like friggin BATMAN. Sure, we have that whole shameful era like Batman had with Superfriends. But at the end of the day, your ALL damned jealous you didn't get what made us cooler than you just like Fantastic Four.

The founding principles are why I am proud. NONE of you have made a decent argument to disprove the principles I believe in, NOR have you come up with a country with a better origin of founding. You'll also find few countries that have NOT done something as bad to their people or other people like us or worse like the EU's whos centuries of crap is notorious worldwide.

I think we should all stop being patriotic. Nationalism is an outdated idea. We should think beyond national border and talk about globalism and internationalism, which simply brings "love for the nation" on to a world scale "love for the globe". that will simply put a stop to all wars and pollution.

Globalisim and internationalism has hurt our economy drastically. Have you been under a rock over the outsourcing issue? Furthermore we are getting involved in FAR to many foreign conflicts due to our interventionalist policies that go HAND IN HAND with globalization and internationalism. Finally we put our soverienty at risk with those two policies.

We NEED to revert bact to George Washington's policy of partial isolationalism.

Do they arrive on inner tubes?

Occationally, on lilos and other inflatable toys as well, but the most common route for illegal immigrants these days is clinging to the underside or other part of a train in the channel tunnel

The founding principles are why I am proud. NONE of you have made a decent argument to disprove the principles I believe in, NOR have you come up with a country with a better origin of founding.

Well, in the UK we do have the Magna Cartar...

Occationally, on lilos and other inflatable toys as well, but the most common route for illegal immigrants these days is clinging to the underside or other part of a train in the channel tunnel

Wow at those high speeds, they must really have a firm grip.

Well, in the UK we do have the Magna Cartar...
Magna Cartar? Is that like Magna Carta but with a mispelling? (I'm sorry if I am genuinely ignorant here.)

In anycase, we have The Declaration of Independence, The US Constitution, the Federal papers, George Washington's farewell address, The Albany Plan of Union, Common Sense, and a few other works by the Founders and others like the Magna Carta which is respected or recognized as influential here to.

I am NOT praising all of American history. Granted it has given us as a country a LOT of experience other countries don't have. But this does NOT detract from our origins. Why don't YOU come up with a better countries origins? You won't. Because we are like friggin BATMAN. Sure, we have that whole shameful era like Batman had with Superfriends. But at the end of the day, your ALL damned jealous you didn't get what made us cooler than you just like Fantastic Four.

The founding principles are why I am proud. NONE of you have made a decent argument to disprove the principles I believe in, NOR have you come up with a country with a better origin of founding. You'll also find few countries that have NOT done something as bad to their people or other people like us or worse like the EU's whos centuries of crap is notorious worldwide.

How about being the only nation that, at it's inception, firmly decided AGAINST Democracy?

(Ironic, in light of the spread of 'American Democracy'....)

Well, in the UK we do have the Magna Cartar...

Magna Carta granted some limited rights to noblemen and was signed only because some powerful nobles kidnapped the king and intimidated him into signing.

How about being the only nation that, at it's inception, firmly decided AGAINST Democracy?

(Ironic, in light of the spread of 'American Democracy'....)

Do you even understand WHY? Or are you who criticize our founding completely unaware of what happened and have only been educated at the high school level?

(Unless your foreign, which would explain enough.)

Globalisim and internationalism has hurt our economy drastically. Have you been under a rock over the outsourcing issue? Furthermore we are getting involved in FAR to many foreign conflicts due to our interventionalist policies that go HAND IN HAND with globalization and internationalism. Finally we put our soverienty at risk with those two policies.

We NEED to revert bact to George Washington's policy of partial isolationalism.

Globalism will promote interdependence of resources, thus reducing the threat of war and disruptions to trade, which will actually strengthen the global economy. For example, free trade between China and America will guarantee American consumers with cheap and quality goods, instead of having to waste money on expensive American goods and subsidies.

For now, I have a feeling that the U.S. invasions of other countries are more about national gain than international interest.

What sovereignty? We are all humans! One race, one species! We should progress together, not split up into factions and quarrel with each other.

I have heard many Americans on this forum and elsewhere state that one of the reasons they believe their country is the greatest in the world is that so many people risk there lives to attempt to journey to America, the 'Land of the free and the home of the brave'. The thing is, this is just as true, if not more true in the UK, and British citizens have never seen this as a cause for patriotism. Is this an idea I have right, or just another piece of Trans-Atlantic confusion


I think it's more evidenced by how many times American's/America is "stabbed" in the back (by words or deeds).

The consolation to being stabbed in the back is knowing that you're in the lead

I visited my sister (who's studying over there) a couple of years ago and it's frightening how seriously they take things. Over here, you can basically criticise what the government's doing as much as you want, but it seems that in the U.S. everybody 'goes with the flow' and you stick out like a sore thumb if you disagree with the prevailing mood.

The American students I met were like 'Hey, you're British, so nice to meet you' but there was this definite feeling of hostility towards anyone who didn't basically agree that American is best. I put my foot in it several times and learnt to be a bit more careful afterwards.

Yup, welcome to our government sponsored school system. It's really easy to indoctrinate, when you control the children.

Do you even understand WHY? Or are you who criticize our founding completely unaware of what happened and have only been educated at the high school level?

(Unless your foreign, which would explain enough.)

Do I understand why..... why they decided to found a Republic, rather than a Democracy? Really depends on whether you mean their reason, or what they 'said'.

They 'said' that Democracy was a corrupt form of government... but whether or not that was the 'reason' is open to debate.

All of which is irrelevent, of course. The American founders decided to pass up government on a purely democratic basis, for a less truly democratic model. A curious choice for a nation that claims to be 'for the people'.

Just as a point of interest, why would being 'foreign' explain anything?

What in God's name is wrong with those of us who are American citizens being proud of our Country? Why is that a problem for any European?

Quite frankly, I would love to see Europeans ( or, for that matter, South Americans, Eurasians, Africans, Middle Easterners, etc. ) focus a bit on their own problems, which from this side of the pond seem considerably more grevious than ours!

If you have some sort of problem with the way we Americans view our own Country, I suggest you ... get over it!

What in God's name is wrong with those of us who are American citizens being proud of our Country? Why is that a problem for any European?

Quite frankly, I would love to see Europeans ( or, for that matter, South Americans, Eurasians, Africans, Middle Easterners, etc. ) focus a bit on their own problems, which from this side of the pond seem considerably more grevious than ours!

If you have some sort of problem with the way we Americans view our own Country, I suggest you ... get over it!


Ya, as an American i have a problem taking pride in other countries. :D

They 'said' that Democracy was a corrupt form of government... but whether or not that was the 'reason' is open to debate.


It comes down to 51% of the population can make 49% of the population's lives miserable. That's what they were trying to avoid.


All of which is irrelevent, of course. The American founders decided to pass up government on a purely democratic basis, for a less truly democratic model. A curious choice for a nation that claims to be 'for the people'.


Yup. For the individual people--not the group of people.

The US origins are spectacular I'll give you that. Most nations are made up of fairly much indigenous institutions and people which have evolved with the various influxes of other peoples. The Magna Carta provided some universal laws, not just noble priveliges and, along with other Norman reforms essentially kicked off the worlds oldest surviving constitution.

The US just conquered a continent, practically annihilated the locals and held a pair of civil wars, nothing special ;)

I take pride in the UK as a tolerant and liberal nation but I also criticize it's lack of democracy and it's current refusal to part ways with the increasingly problematic US.

I think we should all stop being patriotic. Nationalism is an outdated idea. We should think beyond national border and talk about globalism and internationalism, which simply brings "love for the nation" on to a world scale "love for the globe". that will simply put a stop to all wars and pollution.

Globalisim and internationalism has hurt our economy drastically. Have you been under a rock over the outsourcing issue? Furthermore we are getting involved in FAR to many foreign conflicts due to our interventionalist policies that go HAND IN HAND with globalization and internationalism. Finally we put our soverienty at risk with those two policies.
oh god this is precisely the point... the attitude that leads to wars, racism, xenophobia, militarism and all sorts of problems and issues that are becoming apparent in the US (from an outsider's point of view, especially coupled with religious fundamentalism). how do we know this point of view? why is Europe trying to change its ways and distance itself from the outdated methods still used by the USA? because we've been there before and we know where it leads... ultimatley, if left unchecked, to millions of lives lost and a shattered world. if we're not careful, history could repeat itself...

you say "OUR" economy, "OUR" sovereignty... what makes your economy any more important than that of other countries? what makes you so damn special?

this is the whole point of internationalism and globalisation... do away with stupid notions of "MY" country and accept we're all the same the world over; stop caring only about ME and start caring about the greater "US"

(lol and thats not US as in USA... :rolleyes: )


i'm probably gonna get flamed to death for saying these things, but this is certainly how it appears to many of us outsiders at the moment. if you can't see any truth in this at all, or simply reject it because it grates against your national pride, then i feel sorry for you, stuck in your short term, narrow-minded little world

We often refuse to accept an idea merely because the tone of voice in which it has been expressed is unsympathetic to us
- Friedrich Nietzsche


and this post is not supposed to be flamebait, btw.

I am NOT praising all of American history. Granted it has given us as a country a LOT of experience other countries don't have. But this does NOT detract from our origins. Why don't YOU come up with a better countries origins? You won't. Because we are like friggin BATMAN. Sure, we have that whole shameful era like Batman had with Superfriends. But at the end of the day, your ALL damned jealous you didn't get what made us cooler than you just like Fantastic Four.

The founding principles are why I am proud. NONE of you have made a decent argument to disprove the principles I believe in, NOR have you come up with a country with a better origin of founding. You'll also find few countries that have NOT done something as bad to their people or other people like us or worse like the EU's whos centuries of crap is notorious worldwide.

What an excitable nationalistic little chap you are. Do calm down dear. I neither need nor want to 'come up with a better countries origins' (does that phrase even make sense?), the whole idea is silly and pointless. But since you seem to enjoy focusing on minutia and just love stomping your feet with BIG words, I'll just remind you of one of your 'heros', Thomas Jefferson. A man who thought of the excellent sound-bite 'All men are created equal'. Sounds good.......... no, it sounds great. Until you realise it was formulated by one of historys biggest hypocrits. He continued to enjoy the fruits of the labour of 5,000 negro slaves and had sex with the females anytime he felt like it. Remember, he didn't ask for sex, he demanded it. Today that would be called rape. Oh yes, a fine start to a young nation.

Get over yourself and grow up a bit.

It comes down to 51% of the population can make 49% of the population's lives miserable. That's what they were trying to avoid.

Yup. For the individual people--not the group of people.

And the end result? A form of government which is elected by a couple of hundred people, and decisions (which apply to all) are made by a few hundred more.

Republics are the dictatorships of Democracy.

I have heard many Americans on this forum and elsewhere state that one of the reasons they believe their country is the greatest in the world is that so many people risk there lives to attempt to journey to America, the 'Land of the free and the home of the brave'. The thing is, this is just as true, if not more true in the UK, and British citizens have never seen this as a cause for patriotism. Is this an idea I have right, or just another piece of Trans-Atlantic confusion
The UK is not officially dedicated to that idea.

The US has a big French statue out front, and has generally lived up to that ideal.

With the exception of the First People, everyone in the US is descended from people who were thrown out of every decent country in the world.

Only in recent times has immigration been so great in the UK.

I think we should all stop being patriotic. Nationalism is an outdated idea. We should think beyond national border and talk about globalism and internationalism, which simply brings "love for the nation" on to a world scale "love for the globe". that will simply put a stop to all wars and pollution.

This would sound like a great idea if there were some form of centralized World Governing body. I know that there is the UN, which was rather effective in the past, but in recent years has just repeatedly demonstrated large scale failure.

I think that hope for global unity is a great ideal, but it is only an ideal, not a current practical reality. Who knows, maybe in a few generations it will happen, but intill then I think that it very understandable to have a sense of pride in your homeland.

Im just curious about why they take pride in something which is equally true elsewhere. I would find something more unique myself.
I think it was the sure scale of migrations that happened in our history that makes it our selling point.
At the same time Germans & Irish & Polish & Chineese & Italians, & Swedes etc...etc...etc. Millions of people came into this county. All for different but = reasons to. To build new lives from their wrecked ones. To explore the frontier. To find rich farmland that was their on & not owned by a British landlord.To find gold in them that hills......etc...etc.
Yes these things were done in other area of the world. But not at the level it was done here in the USA. "Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses yearning to be free."

that doesn't somehow absolve the US of it's horrible origin... and I think that is where the post that started this side-line was directed.

No, it doesn't -- and I thought I made that clear earlier. But if people are going to continue to bring up slavery and genocide from the 1600s-1800s in this country, (you know, events occurring at least 200 years in its past) and act as if people TODAY are still responsible for it, then I see no reason why they shouldn't take it back further to the people who actually invaded the land to begin with. Those people would be Europeans.

;) Don't look at me. Neither side of my family made it to the US before 1908.
And hey, whaddaya know, I'm of European ancestry!

But if people are going to continue to bring up slavery and genocide from the 1600s-1800s in this country, (you know, events occurring 200 years in its past) and act as if people TODAY are still responsible for it, then I see no reason why they shouldn't take it back further to the people who actually colonized it to begin with. Those people would be Europeans.

1)Who was arguing that people today are responsible for it?
2)How do you know I don't hate European history as much as I hate the history of the USA?

And the end result? A form of government which is elected by a couple of hundred people, and decisions (which apply to all) are made by a few hundred more.

Republics are the dictatorships of Democracy.

There is indeed a problem, when those few are allowed to override the constitution illegally--that's the problem I have with our government today. The Patriot Act is a spit in the face of the Constitution. Just like gun laws. It didn't work like that for the first 80-some years. Not until Lincoln.

As for pure democracy....Democracy is mob rule, period. Just because I don't agree with a majority doesn't mean that the majority is allowed to force me to change anything. Just like I don't have the right to force them to do something they don't agree with. (Yes, there are exceptions, like murder and such)

1)Who was arguing that people today are responsible for it?
Then why bring it up endlessly?

2)How do you know I don't hate European history as much as I hate the history of the USA? I don't. But many people from outside the US do harp on this endlessly. They're almost as tiresome as the people who say, "France/England/The Rest of the World should be GLAD we saved them in WWII!"

As for how I know whether you're not you're European, I don't. I wasn't directing this at YOU, I was directing my argument against what I perceive as the hypocrisy (generalized) of criticizing the US for its colonial origins and not criticizing its parent countries as well.

Then why bring it up endlessly?

Is it not appropriate to discuss the history of USA unless we're being congratulatory and admiring?
I believe my original post was in response to someone saying they were proud of the "origins" of the USA. I regard the genocide as part of the "origins" of the USA. A few pages later we're suddenly proud of the "foundations" instead, which is fair enough (although I hate those too).

I wasn't directing this at YOU, I was directing my argument against what I perceive as the hypocrisy (generalized) of criticizing the US for its colonial origins and not criticizing its parent countries as well.

I don't see how you can be so sure that there is any hypocrisy, unless anyone directly states that their nation's history is glorious in comparison.

I was directing my argument against what I perceive as the hypocrisy (generalized) of criticizing the US for its colonial origins and not criticizing its parent countries as well.

While I dont think the US is bad because of its colonial origins, I do think its stupid for Americans to sneer at Europeans and say "We were FOUNDED as a democracy, YOU had to DEVELOP till you became one. Were better than you". And I have heard many American's on here behave in this fashion, but obviously not all. The point of course being that the Ameican system of Democracy was set up BY the European powers. It wasnt just sprung up overnight. America is only just over 200 years old so its not as if Democracy was a revolutionary idea at the time.

Do I understand why..... why they decided to found a Republic, rather than a Democracy? Really depends on whether you mean their reason, or what they 'said'.

They 'said' that Democracy was a corrupt form of government... but whether or not that was the 'reason' is open to debate.

All of which is irrelevent, of course. The American founders decided to pass up government on a purely democratic basis, for a less truly democratic model. A curious choice for a nation that claims to be 'for the people'.

Just as a point of interest, why would being 'foreign' explain anything?

Yes. They had to go through a period of more absolute democracy during the period of the Articles of Confederation. They went through almost everything. Absolute freedom, absolute tyranny, absolute chaos, and FINALLY unlike you learned something. How to form a proper republic which a LOT of other countries seem to hypocritically mooch off of. A country needs a UNION. A brain if you will. Absolute democracy works at local levels but CAN be ruined by MOB rule. They learned this. A representative democratic republic is NEEDED after a certain size of the population, development, and bountries. Its why communism and pure capitalism tends to fail.

The US origins are spectacular I'll give you that. Most nations are made up of fairly much indigenous institutions and people which have evolved with the various influxes of other peoples. The Magna Carta provided some universal laws, not just noble priveliges and, along with other Norman reforms essentially kicked off the worlds oldest surviving constitution.

The US just conquered a continent, practically annihilated the locals and held a pair of civil wars, nothing special ;)

I take pride in the UK as a tolerant and liberal nation but I also criticize it's lack of democracy and it's current refusal to part ways with the increasingly problematic US.

"The US origins are spectacular I'll give you that".

That is ALL I claimed. Everything else is up to your personal intrests of your government's course.

oh god this is precisely the point... the attitude that leads to wars, racism, xenophobia, militarism and all sorts of problems and issues that are becoming apparent in the US (from an outsider's point of view, especially coupled with religious fundamentalism). how do we know this point of view? why is Europe trying to change its ways and distance itself from the outdated methods still used by the USA? because we've been there before and we know where it leads... ultimatley, if left unchecked, to millions of lives lost and a shattered world. if we're not careful, history could repeat itself...

you say "OUR" economy, "OUR" sovereignty... what makes your economy any more important than that of other countries? what makes you so damn special?

this is the whole point of internationalism and globalisation... do away with stupid notions of "MY" country and accept we're all the same the world over; stop caring only about ME and start caring about the greater "US"

(lol and thats not US as in USA... :rolleyes: )


i'm probably gonna get flamed to death for saying these things, but this is certainly how it appears to many of us outsiders at the moment. if you can't see any truth in this at all, or simply reject it because it grates against your national pride, then i feel sorry for you, stuck in your short term, narrow-minded little world

Its OUR damned economy that is why. Our intrests are OUR responsibilities. And we have NO responsibility to give an ass for countries unless it suits our needs. You act ALL high and mighty over "we've been there, done that" and you STILL have goddamned problems no different than us. You aren't better than us, but you ALWAYS like to think you are. So MAN do we get hell when we do the DAMNED SAME. Because only you feel like you have the need to be better than anybody. Hell our people aren't exactly fond of the government here either, yet why are WE supposed to give our soviernty to the UN? We in the minority BARELY have any say in our own republic thanks to the two party system.

Furthermore since we are in a better position than most countries, it is WE who have to sacrifice more in the globalization process. The rest have to mooch. We need to go back to partial isolationalism and you all need to leave us the hell alone outside of trade.

What an excitable nationalistic little chap you are. Do calm down dear. I neither need nor want to 'come up with a better countries origins' (does that phrase even make sense?), the whole idea is silly and pointless. But since you seem to enjoy focusing on minutia and just love stomping your feet with BIG words, I'll just remind you of one of your 'heros', Thomas Jefferson. A man who thought of the excellent sound-bite 'All men are created equal'. Sounds good.......... no, it sounds great. Until you realise it was formulated by one of historys biggest hypocrits. He continued to enjoy the fruits of the labour of 5,000 negro slaves and had sex with the females anytime he felt like it. Remember, he didn't ask for sex, he demanded it. Today that would be called rape. Oh yes, a fine start to a young nation.

Get over yourself and grow up a bit.

I'm not Nationalistic. I didn't agree with bush (I like John McCain, Wesley Clark, and Nader the most) and I CERTAINLY didn't agree with damned Iraq. I am PATRIOTIC. I only care about our Republic, and its founding principles. I speak out on behalf of them and defend them. NOTHING MORE. And globalization is HURTING US.

And don't talk shit about Jefferson you prick. You are not even 1/50 as great as the legendary man and HE was a slave owner. Doesn't that make you pretty pathetic? I believe so. Slavery happened because the economic dependence on them because NEWS FLASH THERE WERE NO GODDAMNED TRACTORS. In fact, most of the big named Founders didn't believe it was moral. Even Washington hoped that Slavery would be slowly ended. History however wasn't exactly up to their vision yet.

No, it doesn't -- and I thought I made that clear earlier. But if people are going to continue to bring up slavery and genocide from the 1600s-1800s in this country, (you know, events occurring at least 200 years in its past) and act as if people TODAY are still responsible for it, then I see no reason why they shouldn't take it back further to the people who actually invaded the land to begin with. Those people would be Europeans.

;) Don't look at me. Neither side of my family made it to the US before 1908.
And hey, whaddaya know, I'm of European ancestry!

I'm just responding to whoever-it-was that made a big deal out of the wonderful-ness of the US of A's miracle beginning... and I'm pointing out that silver linings all too often are there because of a cloud.

Don't look at me, either... neither side of my family made it to the US... :)

I'm just responding to whoever-it-was that made a big deal out of the wonderful-ness of the US of A's miracle beginning... and I'm pointing out that silver linings all too often are there because of a cloud.

Don't look at me, either... neither side of my family made it to the US... :)
Actually you are just dodging the blame. The US had its circumstances you wish to ignore out of spite or some idiotic reasoning that doesn't recognize that the situation at hand wasn't stable enough to abolish a practice that was being depended on by 90% or more of a regions' economy.

If you REALLY want to point fingers, England allowed the first colonianls to have slaves and kill Native Americans. Why blame the Founding fathers for such a circumstance in a barely forming nation?

There is indeed a problem, when those few are allowed to override the constitution illegally--that's the problem I have with our government today. The Patriot Act is a spit in the face of the Constitution. Just like gun laws. It didn't work like that for the first 80-some years. Not until Lincoln.

As for pure democracy....Democracy is mob rule, period. Just because I don't agree with a majority doesn't mean that the majority is allowed to force me to change anything. Just like I don't have the right to force them to do something they don't agree with. (Yes, there are exceptions, like murder and such)
You say 'mob rule' as though it were a bad thing.

'Mob rule' is ONLY as flawed as the mob.

A society based around a mutually concerned, educated 'mob' would be a perfect democracy, AND the most effective form of government short of a benign Dictatorship.... but without the tendency towards abuse of power.

I agree with you, though... the Constitution of today is little more than toilet tissue for boys in big chairs.

Here is my novice opinion.I am not proud of my nation. I am proud of those who worked so hard for political eqaulity such as Thomas Jefferson.I say be proud of the accomplishments, not a distinction. Pay tribute to the Founding Fathers, the scientists, the writers, the poets, the average worker- not the nation. It is more respectable because it honors individual achievements by their own merit instead of honoring them collectively by being put into a single concept. I am not proud of being an American, nor am I ashamed of it. I am proud to be an individual. This also prevents one from being overzealous and arrogant.Nationalism bring with it labels and labels are dangerous in any form.

Warm Regards,

Generalissimo

You say 'mob rule' as though it were a bad thing.

'Mob rule' is ONLY as flawed as the mob.

A society based around a mutually concerned, educated 'mob' would be a perfect democracy, AND the most effective form of government short of a benign Dictatorship.... but without the tendency towards abuse of power.

I agree with you, though... the Constitution of today is little more than toilet tissue for boys in big chairs.

Shows how little you know of human history and basic human behavior.

The Constitution however is considered toliet issue to the ignorant and inexperienced. Bascily because they have no other form or government that would please them outside of their idealistic bull**** that would be designed in such a flawed way that it would fail. The few people that agree with you would neither have the experience, patience, the intelligence, the foresight, and would have no proper support of the people to believe in what you believe in.

So be jealous all you want. That doesn't bug me. What bugs me is your utter contempt of history.

First, I object to this:
"and FINALLY unlike you learned something",
this:
"don't talk shit about Jefferson you prick"
and, this:
"Doesn't that make you pretty pathetic? I believe so"

Sorry, friend... but, if you cannot debate without resorting to potty-mouth rhetoric, and direct personal attacks... well, it could be argued that you just are NOT debating.

Perhaps, if you modify your ways, I might dignify another of your posts with an actual response.

Wait. I see a problem on my part. I mistook you for another user "Globes R Us".

Looking back you were the one discussing absolute democracy. For that you have my sincere apologies. What I said in regards to democracy and mob rule however stand. It doesn't work after a certain size of the population, and etc.

That is why it works for the City of Athens, but not the United States of America. We DO have absolute democracy still working in certain cities in the Northeast however. But that won't work after a large number of people is effected.

Actually you are just dodging the blame. The US had its circumstances you wish to ignore out of spite or some idiotic reasoning that doesn't recognize that the situation at hand wasn't stable enough to abolish a practice that was being depended on by 90% or more of a regions' economy.

If you REALLY want to point fingers, England allowed the first colonianls to have slaves and kill Native Americans. Why blame the Founding fathers for such a circumstance in a barely forming nation?

This makes no sense? I'm ignoring something out of spite?

Explain how.... what am I ignoring... and why is that spiteful?

What is it that you are claiming was the practise that 90% of the economy 'needed'? I fear you mean slavery, in which case... you have divested yourself of the last tattered vestiges of reality, I fear.

I don't 'really want to point fingers', thank you... but I'll bear it in mind.

England not only allowed slavery, you are missing most of the key facts... England maintained an empire through trading slaves, drugs, weapons and expensive luxury items, all across the world...

England has a shady history of Empire... but they are NOT trying to hide it, or make out it was anything else.

The US was born of rebellion, revolution, treason, murder, genocide and ownership of other human beings.

Ignore it at your peril, but don't try to make it palatable to others, then complain when they balk at swallowing it.

Shows how little you know of human history and basic human behavior.

The Constitution however is considered toliet issue to the ignorant and inexperienced. Bascily because they have no other form or government that would please them outside of their idealistic bull**** that would be designed in such a flawed way that it would fail. The few people that agree with you would neither have the experience, patience, the intelligence, the foresight, and would have no proper support of the people to believe in what you believe in.

So be jealous all you want. That doesn't bug me. What bugs me is your utter contempt of history.

More inflammatory bile? Don't you get tired of it?

What am I failing to understand about human history or behaviour?

You realise, of course, that there ARE actually communities today, that fit the 'mob rule' profile I described? Christiania (if it hasn't finally been destroyed by the oppressive regime it borders on) being a perfect example.

I beg to differ on the Constitution issue. Those who ARE educated, see that the Constitution is a sham, compared to it's initial intent. Power has corrupted, and the lunatics have taken over the asylum. Try seriously defending the belief in the sanctity of the Constitution, when the powers-that-be can make amendments that are unConstitutional? Patriot Act... Ban on gay Marriage... both good examples.

If I could get you to explain this part again, please? "The few people that agree with you would neither have the experience, patience, the intelligence, the foresight, and would have no proper support of the people to believe in what you believe in". I really can't work out what you mean.

I am not jealous... and I'm curious what you think I'm jealous OF.

And I have no contempt for history... quite the reverse, in fact.

Yeah, that was a mistake on my part as I said earlier. Again my SINCERE apologies. I've already deleted the other post. Pay that criticism no mind. Its another rascal I have beef with for attacking Jefferson like a dirt bag.

He sent me on a blind rage that seemed to cloud my judgement. :P

(also note that the delays in response are due to me doing a LOT of things at the moment. Sorry for the delay. I'll be leaving in a sec.)

More inflammatory bile? Don't you get tired of it?

What am I failing to understand about human history or behaviour?

You realise, of course, that there ARE actually communities today, that fit the 'mob rule' profile I described? Christiania (if it hasn't finally been destroyed by the oppressive regime it borders on) being a perfect example.

And that too will go bad one day likely due to mob rule. Probably faster anyway.

I beg to differ on the Constitution issue. Those who ARE educated, see that the Constitution is a sham, compared to it's initial intent. Power has corrupted, and the lunatics have taken over the asylum. Try seriously defending the belief in the sanctity of the Constitution, when the powers-that-be can make amendments that are unConstitutional? Patriot Act... Ban on gay Marriage... both good examples.

Ignore that. That was a mistake.

Anyway, it doesn't matter if it doesn't serve its original intent. There are those who will STILL defend it. And at the end of the day, that counts for a lot. The Constitutional changes are minimal and most of what you are thinking are statutory laws such as the disgrace that is the "patriot" act.

The gay marriage debate will not happen as a constitutional ammendment. It is to difficult to change the document. Besides it is both a religious practice AND a state issue.

Your right about the religious right, ultra liberals, and the corrupt in power. They are enemies to the republic. There are those who know this, believe me for I am one of them. We STILL defend the Constitution untill they change the document to such an extent, even we who defend it can no longer validate its authority.

We believe in it. We are citizens of this republic. That counts for more than the "educated" who are probably foriegn. Those who really are educated however know times change and the document must remain flexible for the next generation. Though seriously changing it with an initiative instead of a temporary statutory law is something else entirely. There are ONLY 27 Constitutional ammendments. 10 Are the bill of rights. And one is a legitimate mistake while the other is one to repeal the mistake.

(anyway sorry for the attacks. I was intended for the idiot who attacked Jefferson thinking they knew anything. Got to go now.)

I think the thing that annoys non-americans about American patriotism is the American "Holier-than-thou" attitude. In Europe most people are willing to admit their countries imperfections, where I find that Americans are either ignorant of such things(CNN is not unbiased in it's reports) or try their best to ignore them. I find it a little scary how many Americans are ignorant of their own history and current events.

No country has a perfect history or a perfect origin.
The scary thing about US patriotism is that it reminds many non-US people of the sort of patriotism that allowed Hitler to do what he liked without being questioned by his own nation.
By all means be a patriot, I am myself, just don't be a "Blind Patriot" because on that path madness lies.

By all means be a patriot, I am myself, just don't be a "Blind Patriot" because on that path madness lies.

A case study:

Recently there has been a fierce debate within Hong Kong about the definition of a 'patriot'. The Chinese government insists that patriots must love the Communist Party at the same time, because in China, State and Party are synonymous. However, many local dissidents argue that loving China means despising the Party, because the ysay the Party works against the interests of the people, for example establishing a dictatorship and stripping the country of civil rights.

It serves to show the fine line between patriotism and zealotism. Before any argument about "patriotism" can be commenced, the term itself should be defined. Does patriotism mean loving the country, its history, culture, language, its regime, and all its foreign policies? Or does patriotism simply mean loving your people and your culture with a desire to foster peace and prosperity? Does patriotism for one country also need to respect the patriotism of another country?

Inadequate and different definitions of "patriotism" not only cause problems during discussions, it can also cause wars (see World War One and the War against Terror).

It serves to show the fine line between patriotism and zealotism. Before any argument about "patriotism" can be commenced, the term itself should be defined. Does patriotism mean loving the country, its history, culture, language, its regime, and all its foreign policies? Or does patriotism simply mean loving your people and your culture with a desire to foster peace and prosperity? Does patriotism for one country also need to respect the patriotism of another country?

Inadequate and different definitions of "patriotism" not only cause problems during discussions, it can also cause wars (see World War One and the War against Terror).

For American patriotism, I have my own definition:

"The resolve and loyalty to defend American founding idealisms and principles such as the integrity of the democratic republic institution,
liberty, the ensured civil rights of American citizens, the US Constitution, Declaration of Independence principles,
against all threats, foreign and domestic."

Such a definition allows a person to be anti-government, and yet a Patriot for the institution and everything that American freedom fighters and defenders fought, sacrificed, and died for.

For American patriotism, I have my own definition:

"The resolve and loyalty to defend American founding idealisms and principles such as the integrity of the democratic republic institution,
liberty, the ensured civil rights of American citizens, the US Constitution, Declaration of Independence principles,
against all threats, foreign and domestic."

Such a definition allows a person to be anti-government, and yet a Patriot for the institution and everything that American freedom fighters and defenders fought, sacrificed, and died for.

If only everybody was as wise as you...

But still, I stick to the idea that globalism > nationalism.

I'm not Nationalistic. I didn't agree with bush (I like John McCain, Wesley Clark, and Nader the most) and I CERTAINLY didn't agree with damned Iraq. I am PATRIOTIC. I only care about our Republic, and its founding principles. I speak out on behalf of them and defend them. NOTHING MORE. And globalization is HURTING US.

And don't talk shit about Jefferson you prick. You are not even 1/50 as great as the legendary man and HE was a slave owner. Doesn't that make you pretty pathetic? I believe so. Slavery happened because the economic dependence on them because NEWS FLASH THERE WERE NO GODDAMNED TRACTORS. In fact, most of the big named Founders didn't believe it was moral. Even Washington hoped that Slavery would be slowly ended. History however wasn't exactly up to their vision yet.

Apparently my post sent you into a 'blind rage' and 'clouded' your judgement. Not the sign of a serious debator then. You say you're not nationalistic, well everything you've posted so far is good old jingoism by another name. I shan't call you dirty names, perhaps you can control your 'blind rage' and do me the same courtesy. I don't know what percentage of greatness I possess compared with Jefferson, I don't make any such claims but as I've never held the great offices he did nor been part of the 'birth' of a great nation, I would agree with you. Doesn't change the facts though, no matter how unpalletable, Jefferson was the author of the phrase 'All men are equal' and he was a slave owner and continued to be. He was also a rapist. Neither of those facts detract from the noble idea of his concept, but it does make hima hypocrite. As far as tractors are concerned, the British made the Arab cottage industry of slave trading into a real industry (and you won't find a Brit denying it) but they were also the lead nation in stamping the vile trade out. They boarded many Yankee Clippers and released black slaves. And they didn't have tractors either. Be as proud as you like of your nationality but don't let it get in the way of facts.

[QUOTE=Americai]For American patriotism, I have my own definition:

"The resolve and loyalty to defend American founding idealisms and principles such as the integrity of the democratic republic institution,
liberty, the ensured civil rights of American citizens, the US Constitution, Declaration of Independence principles,
against all threats, foreign and domestic."

For you that may be fine but the proper definition of patriotism is the love of ones country. The defence of it is secondary and not the point.

Shows how little you know of human history and basic human behavior.

The Constitution however is considered toliet issue to the ignorant and inexperienced. Bascily because they have no other form or government that would please them outside of their idealistic bull**** that would be designed in such a flawed way that it would fail. The few people that agree with you would neither have the experience, patience, the intelligence, the foresight, and would have no proper support of the people to believe in what you believe in.

So be jealous all you want. That doesn't bug me. What bugs me is your utter contempt of history.

Why do you assume that people that disagree with you are 'jealous'?

' they have no other form or government that would please them outside of their idealistic bull**** that would be designed in such a flawed way that it would fail
But that's the point of those who dare argue with you, and one you made yourself, the original, beautiful idea failed.

'few people that agree with you would neither have the experience, patience, the intelligence, the foresight'
Sorry, that's not fact, that's arrogance.

'The Constitution however is considered toliet issue to the ignorant and inexperienced.'
You may not agree with this viewpoint ( as nor do I) but it's not ignorant nor inexperience, it's a perfectly valid point of view.

If only everybody was as wise as you...

But still, I stick to the idea that globalism > nationalism.

It still hurts us economically. Furthermore, we need to keep our soverienty since people paid in blood to keep our Republic as it was intended by our founding fathers. Globalization would eventually wear that away. Please study James Madison's writings in the Federalist Paper 10 regarding factions and human behavior. Wars ARE going to happen whether people like them or not. I'm sorry, but its human nature. This is why we are responsible for ONLY ourselves and no other country.

Apparently my post sent you into a 'blind rage' and 'clouded' your judgement. Not the sign of a serious debator then. You say you're not nationalistic, well everything you've posted so far is good old jingoism by another name. I shan't call you dirty names, perhaps you can control your 'blind rage' and do me the same courtesy. I don't know what percentage of greatness I possess compared with Jefferson, I don't make any such claims but as I've never held the great offices he did nor been part of the 'birth' of a great nation, I would agree with you. Doesn't change the facts though, no matter how unpalletable, Jefferson was the author of the phrase 'All men are equal' and he was a slave owner and continued to be. He was also a rapist. Neither of those facts detract from the noble idea of his concept, but it does make hima hypocrite. As far as tractors are concerned, the British made the Arab cottage industry of slave trading into a real industry (and you won't find a Brit denying it) but they were also the lead nation in stamping the vile trade out. They boarded many Yankee Clippers and released black slaves. And they didn't have tractors either. Be as proud as you like of your nationality but don't let it get in the way of facts.

Listen you goddamned fool. It is people like YOU that send half of regular American voters to the booth to vote Bush. I HATE Bush, but have EVERY right to appreciate my damned government's principles. Then you come in here claiming I have NO basis for admiring this countries' achievements even though I also am humbled and am ashamed for its failures and sins? Why don't you just shut the hell up and realize your a damned incident instigating fool? We are not like you fools who play wussy to every damned improper and unfounded criticism of our people. Furthermore WHO ARE YOU TO PASS JUDGEMENT? I'll give you a hint. NOBODY. I'll be the first to admit that a LOT of our people go overboard in nationalism and are uneducated in foreign matters. But I have seen NOTHING to validate your damned opinion.

Furthermore your people ENSLAVED Americans, Hell you did it to everybody who wasn't British. Remember 1812? Apparently its ok to enslave another people for your damned wars and instigate attacks in neighboring countries. You know what? America MUST have gotten that idea from Britain. You are NOT as great as Jefferson even if you were at that time and held such offices simply because you could not even contribute a hint of what he did with his mind and knowledge. Its kind of hard to be a hypocrite when you INTRODUCED legislation to ban slavery that was repealled in Virginia houses. Its also hard to be a hypocrite when the whole damned economy in your region depends so heavily on an economy that depends on slavery to such extent that they refused such legislation.

"For you that may be fine but the proper definition of patriotism is the love of ones country. The defence of it is secondary and not the point."

For the record, shut up. I already know what it means and I even know the origin of the word from the french word "compatriot". I was defining it for Americans to gather around properly. You miss the point you Jefferson hating bigot.

Why do you assume that people that disagree with you are 'jealous'?

' they have no other form or government that would please them outside of their idealistic bull**** that would be designed in such a flawed way that it would fail
But that's the point of those who dare argue with you, and one you made yourself, the original, beautiful idea failed.

'few people that agree with you would neither have the experience, patience, the intelligence, the foresight'
Sorry, that's not fact, that's arrogance.

'The Constitution however is considered toliet issue to the ignorant and inexperienced.'
You may not agree with this viewpoint ( as nor do I) but it's not ignorant nor inexperience, it's a perfectly valid point of view.

1. You are damned jealous. Unless I'm mistaking jealousness it for obscene arrogence, and snobbed nose holier than though attacks.

2. I'm debating. I'm using a perspective people aren't used to seeing. There is a reason our economy is hitting a critical point as well as other consequence in regards to globalization. For absolute democracy, there is just evidence to show it fails due to size of society becoming to heavy for its supports.

3. Hey. Look who's talking. One of the biggest problems with a lot of people like you is you don't realize the pot is calling the kettle black. Its like your totally ignorant that your acting as human as us. Its crazy. SHUT UP ARROGENT FOOL. God. At LEAST I can acknowlege my arrogance. Furthermore, its true for absolute democracy which that phrase was refering to. For a city like Athens, it works. Guys gather in a city for a period of time and talk politics. No big right? For all of Greece city states to converge in one point and discuss is a ridiculous concept that absolute democracy does NOT work. For the contents of the speech, I though he was you. So ignore that criticism's tone. What I say HAS more validity though. A true democracy has to be revoked and changed into a representative democracy as the forefathers created. In fact, its proven. Don't know why you are arguing.

4. It isn't invalidated yet. Statutory laws are not constitutional laws and are subject to change with the times as intended. THROUGH OUT THE TIMES however the basic model of the Constitution stands for the running of the government. A change to it is MAJOR. It requires that even 3/4 of the states accept it as an ammendment outside of a qorum of representative and senators passing it by 2/3rds.

Wow, Americai, how can I hope to argue with your rational and reasoned debate? You are a genius with words.

'Why don't YOU come up with a better countries origins? You won't. Because we are like friggin BATMAN. Sure, we have that whole shameful era like Batman had with Superfriends. But at the end of the day, your ALL damned jealous you didn't get what made us cooler than you just like Fantastic Four.
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like the EU's whos centuries of crap is notorious worldwide.
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Have you been under a rock over the outsourcing issue?
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Do you even understand WHY? Or are you who criticize our founding completely unaware of what happened and have only been educated at the high school level?

(-Unless your foreign, which would explain enough.)

and FINALLY unlike you, learned something

You aren't better than us, but you ALWAYS like to think you are.


And don't talk shit about Jefferson you prick. You are not even 1/50 as great as the legendary man and HE was a slave owner. Doesn't that make you pretty pathetic?

The US had its circumstances you wish to ignore out of spite or some idiotic reasoning


Shows how little you know of human history and basic human behavior

Bascily because they have no other form or government that would please them outside of their idealistic bull****

The few people that agree with you would neither have the experience, patience, the intelligence, the foresight,

So be jealous all you want. That doesn't bug me. What bugs me is your utter contempt of history.

He sent me on a blind rage that seemed to cloud my judgement.

That counts for more than the "educated" who are probably foreign

I was intended for the idiot who attacked Jefferson thinking they knew anything

Listen you goddamned fool

Why don't you just shut the hell up and realize your a damned incident instigating fool?

We are not like you fools who play wussy to every damned improper and unfounded criticism of our people.

WHO ARE YOU TO PASS JUDGEMENT? I'll give you a hint. NOBODY.

For the record, shut up

you Jefferson hating bigot.

You are damned jealous. Unless I'm mistaking jealousness it for obscene arrogence, and snobbed nose holier than though attacks.

Its like your totally ignorant that your acting as human as us.

. SHUT UP ARROGENT FOOL'

Alright I will, your eloquence and profound knowledge of the facts are far beyond mine. Your posts are works of sheer genius.

http://islab.oregonstate.edu/koc/favorites/college/genius.gif

Wow, Americai, how can I hope to argue with your rational and reasoned debate? You are a genius with words.

Alright I will, your eloquence and profound knowledge of the facts are far beyond mine. Your posts are works of sheer genius.

http://islab.oregonstate.edu/koc/favorites/college/genius.gif

Wow. It probably took you a long time to get a lot of quotations I or others are not even going to read to begin with. Then you post a link thinking anybody cares enough to check it.

Look. Just be glad people like you make other people vote for dubbya that normally wouldn't. Because well, your crazy. I'm a good American. I respect people (untill they show disrespect or are a treacherous neo-con), am weary of our government nor do I approve of their transgressions against others, and am moderate though am a paleo-conservative and listen and reason with people who I can tell DO know more than me.

You are not one of them. Far from it. Pls. for the love of everthing reasonable. Take some .50 caliber asprin.

Wow. It probably took you a long time to get a lot of quotations I or others are not even going to read to begin with. Then you post a link thinking anybody cares enough to check it.

Look. Just be glad people like you make other people vote for dubbya that normally wouldn't. Because well, your crazy. I'm a good American. I respect people (untill they show disrespect or are a treacherous neo-con), am weary of our government nor do I approve of their transgressions against others, and am moderate though am a paleo-conservative and listen and reason with people who I can tell DO know more than me.

You are not one of them. Far from it. Pls. for the love of everthing reasonable. Take some .50 caliber asprin.

Funny... I was almost convinced now that there actually ARE Americans somewhere out there who would be able to make a valid point and lead an intelligent conversation. and then you came along.
After reading your postings, there's just one thing I would like to say, leaving aside the entire topic of this thread:

"Go find yourself some manners!"

Funny... I was almost convinced now that there actually ARE Americans somewhere out there who would be able to make a valid point and lead an intelligent conversation. and then you came along.
After reading your postings, there's just one thing I would like to say, leaving aside the entire topic of this thread:

"Go find yourself some manners!"

Don't start off bad. This igit insulted people he had no right to insult. My problem with him started with that. That poster is a prick. I have no beef with anybody else. Period.

If you WANT to discuss an issue with manners with me, by all means discuss it. Don't start off with bad blood. You are being no better than me and would have little stance to criticize me with. Besides it is difficult if I have said NOTHING to attack you, yet you come here and start off attacking me.

Don't start off bad. This igit insulted people he had no right to insult. My problem with him started with that. That poster is a prick. I have no beef with anybody else. Period.

If you WANT to discuss an issue with manners with me, by all means discuss it. Don't start off with bad blood. You are being no better than me and would have little stance to criticize me with. Besides it is difficult if I have said NOTHING to attack you, yet you come here and start off attacking me.

From what I read, he critisised Thomas Jefferson. And your reply was pure insult, I couldn't find a single post where you were trying to put up a valid argument in defend of Jefferson.
Sorry, but bad manners are something I for feel completely intolerant of.

From what I read, he critisised Thomas Jefferson. And your reply was pure insult, I couldn't find a single post where you were trying to put up a valid argument in defend of Jefferson.
Sorry, but bad manners are something I for feel completely intolerant of.

I don't HAVE to defend Jefferson to be truthful. If you study history regarding him, its easy to look back now and just lambast someone because America now is devoid of slavery and racism is tapering down. The situation then was something VASTLY different from what it is now. If it was today, Jefferson would NOT have had slaves at all. Remember this guy was a radical in his own region and nation. Don't you think he would have been more in tune with the rest of us now if the situation was different? His character points to it. Franklin whom is considered the first American abolishionist had the benefit of being the first millionaire from his exploits. He didn't even NEED slaves in his profession.

Lets say you were born at that time and didn't have a tractor, or other such benefits farmers had and the economy was the same as it was then. You WOULD be owning slaves if you were in his position of being a tobacco farmer. I highly doubt you could prove that you, or the other igit who I'm quelling with could be better in any respect. There were few men who stood up against slavery like Jefferson in his region. Can you REALLY claim you'd be better? I seriously doubt it. I even believe you both would be worse.

So again I ask, who is he to criticize him anyway? Sure its easy to criticize crap in hindsight, but in reality, NONE of the people who criticize him are warrented.

Back to the subject. If manners are really something you can't tolerate, then discuss a subject with me regarding politics and ignore my spat with another poster that really doesn't concern you or anybody else. Don't just come in and INSULT ME when I did not show you any initial disrespect.

So again I ask, who is he to criticize him anyway? Sure its easy to criticize crap in hindsight, but in reality, NONE of the people who criticize him are warrented.

So, you're saying nobody is allowed to criticise Jefferson?


Back to the subject. If manners are really something you can't tolerate, then discuss a subject with me regarding politics and ignore my spat with another poster that really doesn't concern you or anybody else. Don't just come in and INSULT ME when I did not show you any initial disrespect.

I don't stand by when I hear a person abusing another person in the street and I won't do it here either.
I didn't insult you (at least I can't remember calling you names, discrediting your education or social backround etc.) I just asked you to reconsider the way you are talking to people. As I said, nothing at all to do with politics, you can admire or despise who you want, just be careful how you voice it.

It still hurts us economically. Furthermore, we need to keep our soverienty since people paid in blood to keep our Republic as it was intended by our founding fathers. Globalization would eventually wear that away. Please study James Madison's writings in the Federalist Paper 10 regarding factions and human behavior. Wars ARE going to happen whether people like them or not. I'm sorry, but its human nature. This is why we are responsible for ONLY ourselves and no other country.




In terms of international economics, globalism is definitely the way to go if we are talking about increased development for EVERYONE. For example, American consumers will benefit if the subsidies to your farmers were dismantled. Although some farmers may be put out of job, you can have cheaper food from Africa and Asia. The government can use the previous subsidy to provide jobs for the displaced farmers to join a more competitive industry. At the same time, since America is now dependent on food imports, it will be less keen to disrupt its trade supply routes with the outbreak of war. The condition can be replicated throughout the world.

So, you're saying nobody is allowed to criticise Jefferson?



I don't stand by when I hear a person abusing another person in the street and I won't do it here either.
I didn't insult you (at least I can't remember calling you names, discrediting your education or social backround etc.) I just asked you to reconsider the way you are talking to people. As I said, nothing at all to do with politics, you can admire or despise who you want, just be careful how you voice it.

1. I specifically said people REALLY don't have grounds to. Again, what makes you think you'd do better? Please clarify why you or the igit whom I was arguing with would be better than him. You say you are defending the other post, I am defending Jefferson who really doesn't deserve your criticism.

2. You DID insult me. I don't know why you suddenly refuse to acknowledge it. Its plain to see you insulted me. Come on, do you REALLY think your going to gain any credibility by denying the obvious?

Again let me show you:

"Funny... I was almost convinced now that there actually ARE Americans somewhere out there who would be able to make a valid point and lead an intelligent conversation. and then you came along.
After reading your postings, there's just one thing I would like to say, leaving aside the entire topic of this thread:"

Hell.. looking back, you insulted more than me. You insulted and generalized an entire people which displays even less manners than I ever did. At least I apologized profusely to those people I did insult out of confusion and I was acting out of the defense of a GOOD AND NOBLE MAN WHO DOESN'T DESERVED TO HAVE HIS NAME DRAGGED IN THE MUD.

Its sad. This anti-Americanism is REALLY hypocritical and both sides seem to display a profound sense of bull**** that isn't regulated to only one country's boarders. This crap goes both ways. It REALLY doesn't matter if globalization happens. People are STILL going to war regardless.

At least it justifys my claims more because **** happens and it always will with humans.

Anyway its late here. I'm leaving for the night.

I was directing my argument against what I perceive as the hypocrisy (generalized) of criticizing the US for its colonial origins and not criticizing its parent countries as well.

While I dont think the US is bad because of its colonial origins, I do think its stupid for Americans to sneer at Europeans and say "We were FOUNDED as a democracy, YOU had to DEVELOP till you became one. Were better than you". And I have heard many American's on here behave in this fashion, but obviously not all. The point of course being that the Ameican system of Democracy was set up BY the European powers. It wasnt just sprung up overnight. America is only just over 200 years old so its not as if Democracy was a revolutionary idea at the time.

While I dont think the US is bad because of its colonial origins, I do think its stupid for Americans to sneer at Europeans and say "We were FOUNDED as a democracy, YOU had to DEVELOP till you became one. Were better than you". And I have heard many American's on here behave in this fashion, but obviously not all. The point of course being that the Ameican system of Democracy was set up BY the European powers. It wasnt just sprung up overnight. America is only just over 200 years old so its not as if Democracy was a revolutionary idea at the time.

Democracy was first tested out in Ancient Greece in the BCs. China tried republicanism once in the BCs. And America isn't a complete democracy anyway - not even the most democratic!

Democracy was first tested out in Ancient Greece in the BCs. China tried republicanism once in the BCs. And America isn't a complete democracy anyway - not even the most democratic!

I know, thats why I hate hearing Americans claim their democracy is either the best or the first.

In terms of international economics, globalism is definitely the way to go if we are talking about increased development for EVERYONE. For example, American consumers will benefit if the subsidies to your farmers were dismantled. Although some farmers may be put out of job, you can have cheaper food from Africa and Asia. The government can use the previous subsidy to provide jobs for the displaced farmers to join a more competitive industry. At the same time, since America is now dependent on food imports, it will be less keen to disrupt its trade supply routes with the outbreak of war. The condition can be replicated throughout the world.

1. We are going to be the one's who suffer economicaly. Sending jobs overseas only works to the benefit of companies. Th American general populace SHOULD be more anti-globalization.

2. Why SHOULD we be dependent on foriegn food if the looming oil peak crisis is going to send us starving thanks to higher fuel prices and a potential economic shut down. I REALLY am afraid you don't understand that GLOBALIZATION IS BAD FOR AMERICANS.

3. War will ALWAYS happen. I'm sorry if people think otherwise and if you have a perception that globalization will prevent it. What is REALLY preventing war so far it is the fact people have nuclear armaments and are justifiably afraid of such monsterous power having to be used.

As long as people are people and have different languages, cultures, beliefs, ideals, and EVERYTHING that makes us humans somewhat divided, we will eventually have war. Either due to the lack of resources and a growing population, to other minor crap such as discrimination, and plain bordum. Everyone around the world if a single country WILL find something to argue about and have it lead to war. It is human nature to have factionism even within the same people.

You say 'mob rule' as though it were a bad thing.

'Mob rule' is ONLY as flawed as the mob.


Electoral college aside, Bush got 53% of the popular vote in the US.....there's your mob rule mentality. At least 45% of the populace in the US is plenty unhappy with events as they are turning out.


A society based around a mutually concerned, educated 'mob' would be a perfect democracy, AND the most effective form of government short of a benign Dictatorship.... but without the tendency towards abuse of power.


The mob will never be able to control themselves, though. That's why you have to protect the individual from the mob. Your utopia cannot ever exist in reality.


I agree with you, though... the Constitution of today is little more than toilet tissue for boys in big chairs.

Too true. :mad:

1. We are going to be the one's who suffer economicaly. Sending jobs overseas only works to the benefit of companies. Th American general populace SHOULD be more anti-globalization.

2. Why SHOULD we be dependent on foriegn food if the looming oil peak crisis is going to send us starving thanks to higher fuel prices and a potential economic shut down. I REALLY am afraid you don't understand that GLOBALIZATION IS BAD FOR AMERICANS.

3. War will ALWAYS happen. I'm sorry if people think otherwise and if you have a perception that globalization will prevent it. What is REALLY preventing war so far it is the fact people have nuclear armaments and are justifiably afraid of such monsterous power having to be used.

As long as people are people and have different languages, cultures, beliefs, ideals, and EVERYTHING that makes us humans somewhat divided, we will eventually have war. Either due to the lack of resources and a growing population, to other minor crap such as discrimination, and plain bordum. Everyone around the world if a single country WILL find something to argue about and have it lead to war. It is human nature to have factionism even within the same people.

But many American industries today are INEFFICIENT. In other words, a lot of resources are wasted, and less people, including American people, benefit from the same amount of resources.

Once globalism is established there will be no more oil crisis because even Saudi Arabia will have to succumb to world demand. Scientists from different countries can also work together to provide a new type of energy source.

War will always happen, but they will be less likely to happen because everybody is dependent on each other for trade.

Look at Europe. They had fought several bloody wars, yes, but today they have emerged as a successful continental union. Diverse opinions may not be bad. As long as we know how to express our opinions while respect the opinion of others, peace will prevail and progress will be possible.

But as long as we keep telling ourselves: we WILL go to war, then we will, indeed, go to war.

But many American industries today are INEFFICIENT. In other words, a lot of resources are wasted, and less people, including American people, benefit from the same amount of resources.

Once globalism is established there will be no more oil crisis because even Saudi Arabia will have to succumb to world demand. Scientists from different countries can also work together to provide a new type of energy source.

War will always happen, but they will be less likely to happen because everybody is dependent on each other for trade.

Look at Europe. They had fought several bloody wars, yes, but today they have emerged as a successful continental union. Diverse opinions may not be bad. As long as we know how to express our opinions while respect the opinion of others, peace will prevail and progress will be possible.

But as long as we keep telling ourselves: we WILL go to war, then we will, indeed, go to war.

No because it will be up to the will of those few oligopoly companies. Take OPEC. Its a bunch of companies that can do whatever they want. Countries keep them under control you say? Sure. Buy politicians is the obvious response from them.

Get real. And the EU being a union doesn't mean it will last for a long time. You just need an issue to crop up which divides the people and you WILL see another divide. It can happen within two or maybe more generations, but it happens.

One of the reasons America has gotten more interventionalist for instance is due to a few reasons.

1. Improper teaching of American founding history and principles such as Washington's farewell address regarding foreign policy advice.

2. The lack of education to the general populace regarding the Republican principles and our government.

3. The general lack of history education in classrooms.

This country used to be wiser and mind its own business when it came to involving oursleves foreign wars. Sure it would participate in some military actions for expansion, but generally the people themselves didn't WANT to get involved in turmoil abroad.

This has changed however within generations. It WILL happen to the EU eventually. I don't know why you think it won't. But it will. Times change and so do the population's perception and goals. Its naive to think the EU will avoid war with themselves permanently. I'm telling you, it ain't happening.

Globalization is only going to benefit a certain population. The corporate heads.

Electoral college aside, Bush got 53% of the popular vote in the US.....there's your mob rule mentality. At least 45% of the populace in the US is plenty unhappy with events as they are turning out.


Like I said - the 'mob' is determined by the education of it's members.

If the US wasn't tending towards being a rightwing theocracy, Bush could never have been elected by a popular vote.


The mob will never be able to control themselves, though. That's why you have to protect the individual from the mob. Your utopia cannot ever exist in reality.


Argentina, after the revolution in 2001.

The brief episode in Hungary, in 1956, until the Soviet Union invaded.

Christiania - which has been 'ruled by a mob' for three decades.

Spain, in 1936.... again, quashed by invading Soviet forces.

Zapatista, Southern Mexico, since 1994.


Invasion seems to be the biggest problem.


Too true. :mad:

Yep. Sad, but true. :(

No because it will be up to the will of those few oligopoly companies. Take OPEC. Its a bunch of companies that can do whatever they want. Countries keep them under control you say? Sure. Buy politicians is the obvious response from them.

Get real. And the EU being a union doesn't mean it will last for a long time. You just need an issue to crop up which divides the people and you WILL see another divide. It can happen within two or maybe more generations, but it happens.

One of the reasons America has gotten more interventionalist for instance is due to a few reasons.

1. Improper teaching of American founding history and principles such as Washington's farewell address regarding foreign policy advice.

2. The lack of education to the general populace regarding the Republican principles and our government.

3. The general lack of history education in classrooms.

This country used to be wiser and mind its own business when it came to involving oursleves foreign wars. Sure it would participate in some military actions for expansion, but generally the people themselves didn't WANT to get involved in turmoil abroad.

This has changed however within generations. It WILL happen to the EU eventually. I don't know why you think it won't. But it will. Times change and so do the population's perception and goals. Its naive to think the EU will avoid war with themselves permanently. I'm telling you, it ain't happening.

Globalization is only going to benefit a certain population. The corporate heads.

But many OPEC countries remain "developing", despite their wealth. They still depend on developed countries for manufactured goods. If the developing countries rely on developed countries for manufactured goods, they HAVE to sell the oil to developed countries to make those manufactured goods.

Again, if everybody collectively has faith in something, that something has more chance of standing.

Humans are supposed to grow. Just because our fathers couldn't do as good as much doesn't mean that we can't do better!

Globalisation will benefit everybody if we ALL put a heart to it...

But many OPEC countries remain "developing", despite their wealth. They still depend on developed countries for manufactured goods. If the developing countries rely on developed countries for manufactured goods, they HAVE to sell the oil to developed countries to make those manufactured goods.

Again, if everybody collectively has faith in something, that something has more chance of standing.

Humans are supposed to grow. Just because our fathers couldn't do as good as much doesn't mean that we can't do better!

Globalisation will benefit everybody if we ALL put a heart to it...

I sense more naivity than reality in this post more than others. What you ask is put people's lives in my home country at risk for the SLIM and unlikely posisibility that people are going to do what they usually do and NOT abuse the situation.

I take it you are nowhere near a OPEC nation like I am. Lets take Mexico which is like 30 minutes from my home. Mexico is sitting on a LOT of oil. Oil that could bring prosperity to the WHOLE nation. So why are SO many people crossing the boarder in masse? Also why is there such a disporportionate amount of poor, almost no middleclass, and a few rich people that own the damned country? BECAUSE OF CORRUPTION. Globalization? Or corporate profiteering?

I'm sorry, but globalization has NOT helped Mexico with NAFTA. They illegal immigrants only send US dollars to Mexico which ends up going to the rich anyway. I have SEEN NOTHING to support your claims.

You have to understand, few issues have collective faith of people in something. And the idea that "we can't do better" really doesn't account for squat considering TIMES CHANGE.

And American's will NOT benefit from globalization thus far. We will be the first ones to suffer. And for what? Most people globally dislike Americans to begin with. Whoopty friggin do and all that, but don't sign me up for that.

We have our problems, but we have to go back and hit the reset button on what America's government is doing. And that means partial isolationism.

I have heard many Americans on this forum and elsewhere state that one of the reasons they believe their country is the greatest in the world is that so many people risk there lives to attempt to journey to America, the 'Land of the free and the home of the brave'. The thing is, this is just as true, if not more true in the UK, and British citizens have never seen this as a cause for patriotism. Is this an idea I have right, or just another piece of Trans-Atlantic confusion

Well, I can't speak for most american. I have "pride" in my "country" because of its foundation. IOW, what its codified goals are in the long run. I view patriotism as something that evolves... Something that seeks to further the principles of the country; that stands against tyrany; that seeks freedom.

What is pride and patriotism? It is pride of "american ideal". It is staunch defense of the ideals the country was founded upon. Even if the present acts of the country are against it.

I'ts not "pride" in a particular institution... Or pride in a particular politician, or support of any act the general government performs...

I have pride in the acts my forefathers took in 1776 in drafting the Virginia Constitution and Bill of Rights... I have pride in my ancestors who stood and signed the declaration of Independence... I have pride in the persons who set out condification of the Constitution, and it's bill of rights... I have pride in the course and direction taken by Thomas Jefferson, Alexander Hamilton, James Monroe, Patrick Henry, Henry Clay, Thomas Paine, John Adams; not pride in the people, but their course, their direction, and the basis of ideals they expressed in creating this country.

I have pride in the purpose...

I think many Americans have commited treason to this purpose and ideal, that is "America(tm)". They are careless with their freedom, careless with independence, and careless with America as a country.

I do think there are many more "patriots" in other countries, than presently in the United States.

Thomas Paine himself was an Englishman, and one of the greatest patriots in American history.... He himself fell victim to his ideology in France, during their revolution; where he went to assist in the foundation of his ideas of freedom and liberty in France, as he did in the former Colonies of England... Yet, there he was bit by the French for not endorsing their slaughter of the King and the aristocracy... Why? because it was against this ideal of liberty, equality and freedom. He was a patriot for freedom, far more than many others, even today.

Pride and patriotism should rest in opposition, and not mere adherance to "status-quo"... When those who risk their own lives, and exercize their rights as freemen and freewomen, to oppose injustices by the government; they are far more patriotic than the policemen, or military personnel who seek to merely follow the dictates by officials.

When California police refused to assist the FBI, when protestors blockaded their building, in response to actions they took against regulated hospices in the state... They were far more patriotic than the FBI agents, who followed the orders of officials in washington to attack and seize those hospices.

When officers of the government take their own towards the constitution, and other higher officers; one must question their patriotism, when they consider orders from an officer of higher calibre than that of their oath to uphold the constitution (the ideals of this country, as a whole).

Patriotism is pride, to the extend of the ideologies of liberty, freedom, and rights of the people... Is the willingness to sacrifice yourself for those rights.

Even having been in service to my country, I did not see the idea of "not-questioning" orders as valid, or even an excuse, except by those who have no interest in upholding their own oaths. I was under the requirement to follow "every lawfull order".... And with that also comes the responsibility of ensuring those orders are indeed lawfull...

It is most certainly true, in many aspects, that dissent is the highest form of patriotism; because, it is through dissent, that liberties have been, and will continue to be, secured.

I sense more naivity than reality in this post more than others. What you ask is put people's lives in my home country at risk for the SLIM and unlikely posisibility that people are going to do what they usually do and abuse the situation.

You have to understand, few issues have collective faith of people in something. And the idea that "we can't do better" really doesn't account for squat considering TIMES CHANGE.

And American's will NOT benefit from globalization thus far. We will be the first ones to suffer. And for what? Most people globally dislike Americans to begin with. Whoopty friggin do and all that, but don't sign me up for that.

We have our problems, but we have to go back and hit the reset button on what America's government is doing. And that means partial isolationism.

That's why we have to think beyond national borders!! We live in the same world, under the same sky, affected by the same type of weather systems. The entire globe NEEDS, whether it wants to or not, to work together!

That's why we have to think beyond national borders!! We live in the same world, under the same sky, affected by the same type of weather systems. The entire globe NEEDS, whether it wants to or not, to work together!

I'll post this again since I edited it to late it seems.

I take it you are nowhere near a OPEC nation like I am. Lets take Mexico which is like 30 minutes from my home. Mexico is sitting on a LOT of oil. Oil that could bring prosperity to the WHOLE nation. So why are SO many people crossing the boarder in masse? Also why is there such a disporportionate amount of poor, almost no middleclass, and a few rich people that own the damned country? BECAUSE OF CORRUPTION. Globalization? Or corporate profiteering?

I'm sorry, but globalization has NOT helped Mexico with NAFTA. They illegal immigrants only send US dollars to Mexico which ends up going to the rich anyway. I have SEEN NOTHING to support your claims.


Well, I can't speak for most american. I have "pride" in my "country" because of its foundation. IOW, what its codified goals are in the long run. I view patriotism as something that evolves... Something that seeks to further the principles of the country; that stands against tyrany; that seeks freedom.

What is pride and patriotism? It is pride of "american ideal". It is staunch defense of the ideals the country was founded upon. Even if the present acts of the country are against it.

I'ts not "pride" in a particular institution... Or pride in a particular politician, or support of any act the general government performs...

I have pride in the acts my forefathers took in 1776 in drafting the Virginia Constitution and Bill of Rights... I have pride in my ancestors who stood and signed the declaration of Independence... I have pride in the persons who set out condification of the Constitution, and it's bill of rights... I have pride in the course and direction taken by Thomas Jefferson, Alexander Hamilton, James Monroe, Patrick Henry, Henry Clay, Thomas Paine, John Adams; not pride in the people, but their course, their direction, and the basis of ideals they expressed in creating this country.

I have pride in the purpose...

I think many Americans have commited treason to this purpose and ideal, that is "America(tm)". They are careless with their freedom, careless with independence, and careless with America as a country.

I do think there are many more "patriots" in other countries, than presently in the United States.

Thomas Paine himself was an Englishman, and one of the greatest patriots in American history.... He himself fell victim to his ideology in France, during their revolution; where he went to assist in the foundation of his ideas of freedom and liberty in France, as he did in the former Colonies of England... Yet, there he was bit by the French for not endorsing their slaughter of the King and the aristocracy... Why? because it was against this ideal of liberty, equality and freedom. He was a patriot for freedom, far more than many others, even today.

Pride and patriotism should rest in opposition, and not mere adherance to "status-quo"... When those who risk their own lives, and exercize their rights as freemen and freewomen, to oppose injustices by the government; they are far more patriotic than the policemen, or military personnel who seek to merely follow the dictates by officials.

When California police refused to assist the FBI, when protestors blockaded their building, in response to actions they took against regulated hospices in the state... They were far more patriotic than the FBI agents, who followed the orders of officials in washington to attack and seize those hospices.

When officers of the government take their own towards the constitution, and other higher officers; one must question their patriotism, when they consider orders from an officer of higher calibre than that of their oath to uphold the constitution (the ideals of this country, as a whole).

Patriotism is pride, to the extend of the ideologies of liberty, freedom, and rights of the people... Is the willingness to sacrifice yourself for those rights.

Even having been in service to my country, I did not see the idea of "not-questioning" orders as valid, or even an excuse, except by those who have no interest in upholding their own oaths. I was under the requirement to follow "every lawfull order".... And with that also comes the responsibility of ensuring those orders are indeed lawfull...

It is most certainly true, in many aspects, that dissent is the highest form of patriotism; because, it is through dissent, that liberties have been, and will continue to be, secured.

ZOMG! I CAME!

That's why we have to think beyond national borders!! We live in the same world, under the same sky, affected by the same type of weather systems. The entire globe NEEDS, whether it wants to or not, to work together!

Agreed. All people should be 'my' people.... we are all citizens of the world.

I'll post this again since I edited it to late it seems.

I take it you are nowhere near a OPEC nation like I am. Lets take Mexico which is like 30 minutes from my home. Mexico is sitting on a LOT of oil. Oil that could bring prosperity to the WHOLE nation. So why are SO many people crossing the boarder in masse? Also why is there such a disporportionate amount of poor, almost no middleclass, and a few rich people that own the damned country? BECAUSE OF CORRUPTION. Globalization? Or corporate profiteering?

I'm sorry, but globalization has NOT helped Mexico with NAFTA. They illegal immigrants only send US dollars to Mexico which ends up going to the rich anyway. I have SEEN NOTHING to support your claims.



Mexico is dirt poor BECAUSE THE USA IS PROTECTIONIST! If Washington will let the free market run, Mexico would be far better off.

Agreed. All people should be 'my' people.... we are all citizens of the world.

And yet the problem is that MANY people disagree. It may have NOTHING TO DO WITH NATIONALISM.

It could be the fact you have no working and good government to speak of.

And i'm not about to declare religious extremists 'my' people. Therein lies the reason why globalization is a far away dream.

In anycase, if the countries of all the world and untold billions of people died, when human history and cultures have been eliminated, maybe in a few years afterwords you can start working on a global government.

Agreed. All people should be 'my' people.... we are all citizens of the world.

I have always supported the idea of a global benevolent dictatorship. In my head.

Mexico is dirt poor BECAUSE THE USA IS PROTECTIONIST! If Washington will let the free market run, Mexico would be far better off.

You don't know ANYTHING about Mexico do you? Ever heard of NAFTA? NORTH AMERICAN FREE TRADE AGREEMENT? Yeah. It basicly has NOT done anything. In fact, it disproves your entire ideology.

Why? Corruption and profiteering has decimated the middle class of Mexico and displaces money improperly through out the economy despite the fact they are an OPEC nation who has their OWN GOVERNMENT OWNING THE OIL.

Here in the boarder (South Texas) we have a saying about Mexico that roughly translates into this.

"In Mexico, a rich man will spend 100 pesos, to take away 1 peso from a poor man."

its funny that in america, we're trying to prevent something that has caused national pride. i know there were the minutemen down by the mexico border trying to prevent illegal aliens from getting in. whats strange is that the minutemen are the kind of people who have a lot of patriotism and here they are trying to stop something that adds to the country's good reputation :rolleyes:
anyway, illigal immigrants run this country economically through labor that we americans feel we're to good to do. so we need to stop complaining about something that is our fault, not theirs.

I have always supported the idea of a global benevolent dictatorship. In my head.

That's fine to each man his universe can be in his head. But like I said. Globalization is BAD for Americans.

So, it has NOTHING to do with disrespect to neighboring nations. It just is not in our people's intrest to persue it.

To get back on topic, I think Neo's point is that it's always bad for Americans to be proud of whatever they've done, and that pride is bad, and that any attempt to pat yourself on the back for a job well done is a major affront to everyone else.

its funny that in america, we're trying to prevent something that has caused national pride. i know there were the minutemen down by the mexico border trying to prevent illegal aliens from getting in. whats strange is that the minutemen are the kind of people who have a lot of patriotism and here they are trying to stop something that adds to the country's good reputation :rolleyes:
anyway, illigal immigrants run this country economically through labor that we americans feel we're to good to do. so we need to stop complaining about something that is our fault, not theirs.

Do yo LIVE near the boarder? Do you even know what is crossing now adays? If you have a problem with Americans thinking they are to good for jobs, then put your kid to work when he is young as a part time kid. The problem is that YOU people have made it seem "cool" to not work in such jobs. You DO want other people to work for you. Otherwise you would be more in defense of these jobs that are being taken. Furthermore we need to start teaching people that ANY honest job, is an HONORABLE JOB.

I worked in the damned fields. I am a hispanic native Texan (Tejano) who has ancestry in Texas since before it became a republic. That's right. I have brown skin and am STILL all American. I am telling you it is IN OUR BEST INTREST TO SECURE OUR BOARDER. You want to win a war with Al-queda and have a open boarder were not only illegals and coyote's cross, but contra-ban, drugs, and anything else that can cross as long as you have the money to pay for its crossing?

Illegals contribute to other problems. THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT THIS REPUBLIC. Most of them are so pro-mexico I don't even know why they bothered to cross.

They also send a LOT of money to Mexico we will never see again because its going to the rich people because they have to buy food.

Mexico's problem is that the people who have no second ammendment (guns are illegal there for you anti-gun folks) need to rise up and overthrow the govenment in another revolution. Because it is THAT bad.

That's fine to each man his universe can be in his head. But like I said. Globalization is BAD for Americans.

So, it has NOTHING to do with disrespect to neighboring nations. It just is not in our people's intrest to persue it.

But honest globalisation is PERFECT for the world! THE ENTIRE WORLD!!

And yet the problem is that MANY people disagree. It may have NOTHING TO DO WITH NATIONALISM.

It could be the fact you have no working and good government to speak of.

And i'm not about to declare religious extremists 'my' people. Therein lies the reason why globalization is a far away dream.

In anycase, if the countries of all the world and untold billions of people died, when human history and cultures have been eliminated, maybe in a few years afterwords you can start working on a global government.

Actually - there are several 'good governments' out there... I personally like Zapatista's Direct Democracy, don't you?

And, why shouldn't a religious extremist be 'your' people? There are religious extremists in every religion, in every nation. The chances are, you already share at least ONE alleigance with an extremist, surely?

Personally, I am working towards being a Citizen of the world today.

To get back on topic, I think Neo's point is that it's always bad for Americans to be proud of whatever they've done, and that pride is bad, and that any attempt to pat yourself on the back for a job well done is a major affront to everyone else.

Hey, maybe you can explain that to me:

What I really really don't get about patriotism or nationalism is, why should I (me, as a person and an individual human being) be proud of what other people did a long time ago and without any help from my side?

Also, if I'm proud about what the most outstanding, most intelligent, most hardworking person of my "nation" has done, shouldn't I at the same time be ashamed of what the most degenerate, lowest, stupidest, criminal did?

This is no offense to any country, it's just a question...

To get back on topic, I think Neo's point is that it's always bad for Americans to be proud of whatever they've done, and that pride is bad, and that any attempt to pat yourself on the back for a job well done is a major affront to everyone else.

Unusual for Neo... he usually prefers to savage Islam.... must be a slow week if he's nipping at the heels of the US again...

I have always supported the idea of a global benevolent dictatorship. In my head.

Actually - if you are going to rule externally, Benign Dictatorship IS pretty much the ideal government... when tempered by 'democratic selection processes'.

If you can sufficiently tutor a population, however... such that they all take equal part and responsibility, the Direct Democracy (basically, what we could call 'communal anarchy') is the ultimate government... I think.

Actually - there are several 'good governments' out there... I personally like Zapatista's Direct Democracy, don't you?

And, why shouldn't a religious extremist be 'your' people? There are religious extremists in every religion, in every nation. The chances are, you already share at least ONE alleigance with an extremist, surely?

Personally, I am working towards being a Citizen of the world today.

Yeah, but they are rebels of the main government in power. (I believe they are in Mexico city and a state if I recall correctly) Goes to show the situation of a country where legitimate rebel movements are prevailent in regions.

...well American extremists I have to deal with even if they are detrimental to our health as a republic. Hopefully good constitutional arguments can presented for their cases. As long as we abide by our codified outlines we should have the ability to please more Americans than they ever could. Foreign religious extremists I have to say are NOT my people. I rather they not bother us, and we not bother them. With anti-US muslim extremists like al-queda.. we are at war with them. I only HOPE this country eventually wisens up and appeases the moderate regular muslim because MAN this administration is idiotic.

But honest globalisation is PERFECT for the world! THE ENTIRE WORLD!!

lol.. you reminded me of a funny flash movie. "TWEEN ANIMATION IS HERE! TWEEN ANIMATION IS THE MEANING OF LIFE."

Anyway, globalization is not good for Americans. Lets just trade goods and avoid conflicts and we should be good for our generations. Anti-bush and all that good jazz.

That's fine to each man his universe can be in his head. But like I said. Globalization is BAD for Americans.

So, it has NOTHING to do with disrespect to neighboring nations. It just is not in our people's intrest to persue it.

But, if something is bad for americans... but then GOOD for EVERYONE.... surely there is no loss, and only gain?

Actually - if you are going to rule externally, Benign Dictatorship IS pretty much the ideal government... when tempered by 'democratic selection processes'.

If you can sufficiently tutor a population, however... such that they all take equal part and responsibility, the Direct Democracy (basically, what we could call 'communal anarchy') is the ultimate government... I think.

Siigh. I think I'd better face the fact that there will never be a perfect government system on Earth. Ever. :'(

I think it's just fine living in america, but i don't see my husband and I agree that we'd be just fine living elsewhere as well. Haha, the best thing about America is that you can drive for days, see something new all the time and not need a passport or a visa... other than that.... eh...

But, if something is bad for americans... but then GOOD for EVERYONE.... surely there is no loss, and only gain?
Not for us. We are responsible for ourselves. You have to understand we are NOT responsible for other countries.

That is not the purpose of governments instituted among their populace. Do you understand at least where I and Americans are coming from? It isn't that we are stingy or some snobbish vibe, but that our people and our government are instituted among us to provide for our protection, our liberty, and prosperity.

If it doesn't do that, well it has NO RIGHT TO GOVERN US.

There is a loss to a people. You simply refuse to acknowledge it because.. well you don't give a **** about our intrests which is why you or any other foreign state has any right to tell us what to do.

Its like Native Americans vs the US government. If the US government isn't going to be in the best intrest of the Native Americans and doesn't consider them legitimate citizens and provide for all their prosperity, protection, civil rights and welfare WHAT RIGHT IS THAT GOVERNMENT TO TELL THEM WHAT TO DO.

You seem to be to socialistic and idealistic to understand what a government is actually meant for. I am not and anti-socialist nut.. but geez. This stuff is a given for Americans.

Yeah, but they are rebels of the main government in power. (I believe they are in Mexico city and a state if I recall correctly) Goes to show the situation of a country where legitimate rebel movements are prevailent in regions.

...well American extremists I have to deal with even if they are detrimental to our health as a republic. Hopefully good constitutional arguments can presented for their cases. As long as we abide by our codified outlines we should have the ability to please more Americans than they ever could. Foreign religious extremists I have to say are NOT my people. I rather they not bother us, and we not bother them. With anti-US muslim extremists like al-queda.. we are at war with them. I only HOPE this country eventually wisens up and appeases the moderate regular muslim because MAN this administration is idiotic.

They were rebels... I guess they still are... but more of an Autonomous Communal Society, now, I think.

Perhaps if you were more accepting of the foreigner, they would be less extreme? They would certainly (obviously) be less foreign.

Don't be fooled, though... there is no war on terror. There is a rather worn attempt to stay in power (for which, I still find hard to believe it won any votes)... and there are regional skirmishes where it is economically, or strategically valid for the US to attack.

Ever wonder why the entire US force cannot find Osama? How about maybe because Bush owns oil interests with him?

Siigh. I think I'd better face the fact that there will never be a perfect government system on Earth. Ever. :'(

There still could... we are just, unfortunately, going to have to deal with the problems of corruption and human greed first...

So - could be a bit of a wait...

There still could... we are just, unfortunately, going to have to deal with the problems of corruption and human greed first...

So - could be a bit of a wait...

A LONG wait. And you also MUST drastically change EVERYTHING we know. Your country, your language, your heritage, culture, your nations history, buildings, and etc. Everything that makes you unique and different from me needs to be changed and destroyed.

Because a one world government requires people to be of the same alligiance as far as citizenship goes.

Ideally the time for that is a world that a few survivors of war who have grown up not knowing anything about previous history of things that divide people. Then would be the time to institute a world government.

Oh and they have to talk the same language and stuff.

Because a one world government requires people to be of the same alligiance as far as citizenship goes.
i still say this is the problem... you don't need national allegiance at all, just alligiance to the world. then you can still live in your own countries, or have a world govt, and both will have the same effect.

They were rebels... I guess they still are... but more of an Autonomous Communal Society, now, I think.

Perhaps if you were more accepting of the foreigner, they would be less extreme? They would certainly (obviously) be less foreign.

Don't be fooled, though... there is no war on terror. There is a rather worn attempt to stay in power (for which, I still find hard to believe it won any votes)... and there are regional skirmishes where it is economically, or strategically valid for the US to attack.

Ever wonder why the entire US force cannot find Osama? How about maybe because Bush owns oil interests with him?

It isn't that I don't like foreigners. What unifies me with ANYBODY as citizenship goes is allegiance to principles. You could be a native Indian Hindu who believes in the same republican ideal as the one that America was founded on, pleage allegience to trying to uphold the basic principles of it, and I would basicly consider you American in principle. Hopefully you just can get your ass over here. But if not, I consider you a citizen... just not legally through the government which is another story.

And there IS somewhat of a war on terror. I know what your saying and it has validity in a lot of respects, but there is STILL the problem of people trying to kill Americans. THAT has to be dealt with. Don't worry about trying to convince me of my government's problems. I KNOW about it. Your preaching to the chior.

Why our people would sacrifice their liberties over a flawed foreign policy is beyond my comprehension. But that's America the media machine for you.

Not for us. We are responsible for ourselves. You have to understand we are NOT responsible for other countries.

That is not the purpose of governments instituted among their populace. Do you understand at least where I and Americans are coming from? It isn't that we are stingy or some snobbish vibe, but that our people and our government are instituted among us to provide for our protection, our liberty, and prosperity.

If it doesn't do that, well it has NO RIGHT TO GOVERN US.

There is a loss to a people. You simply refuse to acknowledge it because.. well you don't give a **** about our intrests which is why you or any other foreign state has any right to tell us what to do.

Its like Native Americans vs the US government. If the US government isn't going to be in the best intrest of the Native Americans and doesn't consider them legitimate citizens and provide for all their prosperity, protection, civil rights and welfare WHAT RIGHT IS THAT GOVERNMENT TO TELL THEM WHAT TO DO.

You seem to be to socialistic and idealistic to understand what a government is actually meant for. I am not and anti-socialist nut.. but geez. This stuff is a given for Americans.

It isn't a matter of being 'responsible' for other countries. It's more a matter of the current situation being temporary... no matter how long 'temporary' lasts.. it is never going to be, ultimately, sustainable.

America has tried Isolationism before, and it doesn't work... and cannot work. Too many people have too many vested interests, now, in distant projects.

Why do you think I don't appreciate what it is to live in America? Why don't I give a **** about 'their' interests?

The fact is - the American political model is corrupt, way overloaded with paperwork and time-makers, and dying on it's feet. The American economic model is defunct... there ARE no more single-nation economies anymore... like it or not, we are ALL part of the global economy.

So, unless you mean something very different by "this stuff", it surely isn't a 'given' for anyone, least of all Americans.

i still say this is the problem... you don't need national allegiance at all, just alligiance to the world. then you can still live in your own countries, or have a world govt, and both will have the same effect.

I'll tell you what. Make this world government almost EXACTLY as America was initially founded on. Seriously the SAME Constitution and wording. (Unfortunately sans the AWESOME sigs) same rights ensured and workings of the government sans prohibition.

MAYBE then I'll consider it. There WILL be problems in this government. MASSIVE future problems that I can foresee, but I will DEFINITELY be less hostile to that government.

The only BIG issue I will have is I will now have an even LESSER voice than I do in the US. Which is a ***** since I am already in a minority position here. So I won't be signing up the first day its created unfortunately.

So as long as the entire world is under the shitty US system it's good then Americai? Sure no-one else has a great system but the sheer corruption of the US system has me struck dumb. It's oligarchy at it's most brilliantly perpetrated and you still don't see it.

<<Not for us. We are responsible for ourselves. You have to understand we are NOT responsible for other countries.>>

You wouldn't think it really...

A LONG wait. And you also MUST drastically change EVERYTHING we know. Your country, your language, your heritage, culture, your nations history, buildings, and etc. Everything that makes you unique and different from me needs to be changed and destroyed.

Because a one world government requires people to be of the same alligiance as far as citizenship goes.

Ideally the time for that is a world that a few survivors of war who have grown up not knowing anything about previous history of things that divide people. Then would be the time to institute a world government.

Oh and they have to talk the same language and stuff.

I'm agreeing with Pure Metal, here... you don't need to lose your allegiance... you just need to ally yourself with a bigger group than you currently embrace

I have changed my country, and my culture. My language is English, probably the most likely world langauge. My 'history' is a curio, nothing more... it doesn't define who I am... just where I came from.

Look at a lake.... does it matter that the water came from the clouds? No- the only thing important is where it is NOW. Same for people... and sticking to concepts like 'heritage' and 'culture' can only be harmful.

You are wrong, though... allegiance isn't the same as lack of identity... I lived in a cosmopolitan city with a cosmopolitan identity. Not everyone celebrated Diwali... but then, not everyone celebrated Easter, either... and we didn't all celebrate the Chinese New Year or Independence Day... but some of us did.

You don't all have to speak the same language... you just have to have enough overlap that any person can be heard.

And, as I said... the important thing is allegiance to the whole of mankind... a ONe World Government requires nothing else. You just have to have collective positive intent.

It isn't a matter of being 'responsible' for other countries. It's more a matter of the current situation being temporary... no matter how long 'temporary' lasts.. it is never going to be, ultimately, sustainable.

America has tried Isolationism before, and it doesn't work... and cannot work. Too many people have too many vested interests, now, in distant projects.

Why do you think I don't appreciate what it is to live in America? Why don't I give a **** about 'their' interests?

The fact is - the American political model is corrupt, way overloaded with paperwork and time-makers, and dying on it's feet. The American economic model is defunct... there ARE no more single-nation economies anymore... like it or not, we are ALL part of the global economy.

So, unless you mean something very different by "this stuff", it surely isn't a 'given' for anyone, least of all Americans.

Actually it we were partial isolationist. We grew phenominally thanks to the policy and adverted destruction for not getting involved untill the last minute in wars as well as not being such a political nuicance on the world stage. It WORKED GREATLY FOR US. Now since we went interventionalist, our status in the world has declined and we have done MORE WRONGS than before which is crazy. History does not back you up here, sorry. In fact, NOBODY disses China outside of the rights issue. Its because the have an economic monster on their hands and MIND THEIR BUISINESS. We are probably the most widely acknowledged disliked country in a while and we have become even more globalized than before WW2. You have REALLY no basis in this argument. You even admitted you don't care about our intrests.. so why SHOULD we care to globalize for your beneifit and intrests?

I mean.. really you have given no real reason for Americans at ALL to support globalization.

You think we are corrupt? WOW. Take a look around. Its bad, not THAT bad though. America is REALLY mostly a victim of poor education and voter apathy. It resulted in a minority extremist group controlling the polticial climate because people are to lazy and uninspired to vote.

So as long as the entire world is under the shitty US system it's good then Americai? Sure no-one else has a great system but the sheer corruption of the US system has me struck dumb. It's oligarchy at it's most brilliantly perpetrated and you still don't see it.

<<Not for us. We are responsible for ourselves. You have to understand we are NOT responsible for other countries.>>

You wouldn't think it really...

I KNOW we have an ogliarcy here. Please, I'm not ignorant. I just don't see how any of you are presenting any persuasive arguments to join allegiance to a government that not only doesn't exist and that does NOT intend to bother with our intrests our uphold the principles of our Republic as it was intended.

You also forget, YOU CAN'T DO BETTER EITHER. You ignore completely what REALLY happens in globalization. You contribute MORE to oligopoly organizations. Your so high up on your idealisms that reality has no place for your world.

Sorry, but American's are not in the wrong here. There is us screwing up or PURPOSELY sabatoging neighboring nations economicly that is wrong on our part. Then you all want to do the SAME THING TO US? Who are you all to criticize? The irony police?

Then there is not pandering to idealistic and inexperienced people's mumbo jumbo.

And who makes them so lazy? Maybe it's the cult Americana that says 'we are the best, no-one can beat us', it's halfway to a national religion!

Maybe it's the fact that there's not much to choose between the candidates, one is an obnoxious rich chimp and the other a slightly less obnoxious rich guy with an irritating rich wife, both white, both practicing outmoded forms of christianity, neither really giving a damn about policy just trying to slag the other off.

Maybe it's the lousy social system that fails people at every turn, the lack of any real social policies to change this.

And who makes them so lazy? Maybe it's the cult Americana that says 'we are the best, no-one can beat us', it's halfway to a national religion!

Maybe it's the fact that there's not much to choose between the candidates, one is an obnoxious rich chimp and the other a slightly less obnoxious rich guy with an irritating rich wife, both white, both practicing outmoded forms of christianity, neither really giving a damn about policy just trying to slag the other off.

Maybe it's the lousy social system that fails people at every turn, the lack of any real social policies to change this.

You want an answer to that? Here it is:

TV. Another one is one parent not raising a child be they woman OR man.
Another is the lack of education in what this country was founded on and there being less of an emphisis on REAL patriotism that demonizes corruption and creates a fevor to do what is right as the republic was intended.

Of course.. then again the ADDED problem of people NOT wanting us to be proud of our achievements.

So really its a line of things to tell you the truth.

I hate globalisation BTW. Because it makes rich countries richer by using their economc power to marginalise the smaller nation, using the WTO/World Bank to force deals that work to the advantage of no-one but the ones in the western companies near the top.

be proud of your acheivements fine, just remember your acheivements mean nothing in the NOW. In the THEN your acheivements mattered, in the NOW and in the FUTURE you need new acheivements to prove your merits.

It isn't that I don't like foreigners. What unifies me with ANYBODY as citizenship goes is allegiance to principles. You could be a native Indian Hindu who believes in the same republican ideal as the one that America was founded on, pleage allegience to trying to uphold the basic principles of it, and I would basicly consider you American in principle. Hopefully you just can get your ass over here. But if not, I consider you a citizen... just not legally through the government which is another story.

And there IS somewhat of a war on terror. I know what your saying and it has validity in a lot of respects, but there is STILL the problem of people trying to kill Americans. THAT has to be dealt with. Don't worry about trying to convince me of my government's problems. I KNOW about it. Your preaching to the chior.

Why our people would sacrifice their liberties over a flawed foreign policy is beyond my comprehension. But that's America the media machine for you.

The problem is, that Republics are corrupt.

By their very nature, they are selective in the distribution of power, and wealth, exclusionist in terms of rights and priviliges, and prejudiced in terms of their execution and organisation.

Like all systems that attempt to centralise power, Republics polarise their populations into classes... rich and poor, educated and ignorant, etc.

Like all systems that attempt to federate, the Federal Republic is massively overblown, filled with huge redundancy, and almost submerged beneath the weight of built-in advocacy and pressure.

I do not believe that a Republic was the best choice for Founding, and I believe it is one of the worst models currently available now.

The only reason it was selected then, is the same reason it is STILL in power today... money talks, and power is seductive.

And yet... I work for a municipality, and pay taxes to that federal government... I serve the Republic... I just don't believe in it.

Regarding the 'war on terror'... Americans are losing their lives, today, because they are in harm's way. If they were all still here, they'd still be alive.

Yes - there was a terrorist act on the WTC... but you know what... terrorism is not new! The IRA have been carrying out terrorist acts for a century.

But, the worst part is... the fact that the government has somehow gulled the people into the belief that a 'war on terror' is the reason we are repairing pipelines in our newly controlled Iraqi oil-fields...

The problem is, that Republics are corrupt.

By their very nature, they are selective in the distribution of power, and wealth, exclusionist in terms of rights and priviliges, and prejudiced in terms of their execution and organisation.

Like all systems that attempt to centralise power, Republics polarise their populations into classes... rich and poor, educated and ignorant, etc.

Like all systems that attempt to federate, the Federal Republic is massively overblown, filled with huge redundancy, and almost submerged beneath the weight of built-in advocacy and pressure.

I do not believe that a Republic was the best choice for Founding, and I believe it is one of the worst models currently available now.

The only reason it was selected then, is the same reason it is STILL in power today... money talks, and power is seductive.

And yet... I work for a municipality, and pay taxes to that federal government... I serve the Republic... I just don't believe in it.

Regarding the 'war on terror'... Americans are losing their lives, today, because they are in harm's way. If they were all still here, they'd still be alive.

Yes - there was a terrorist act on the WTC... but you know what... terrorism is not new! The IRA have been carrying out terrorist acts for a century.

But, the worst part is... the fact that the government has somehow gulled the people into the belief that a 'war on terror' is the reason we are repairing pipelines in our newly controlled Iraqi oil-fields...

Republics need something else that is why. They need another branch. I hate to sound like another damned Star Wars fan not knowing anything, but they need a council like the Jedi to be a BIGGER counterwieght to the government politicians. A sort of highly selective defense against legal deterioration. The council would consists of educated members THROUGHLY taught in the Repubic's intention and basicly act as a think tank and organization to clean the political dirth that clogs up through either assassinations or political assassinations. The American Revolution kind of had this in its OWN principle members. Unfortunately we don't see it because THEY WERE THE THE GOVERNMENT. They were in all three branches and died off eventually.

Anyway, a Republic form of government has proven itself greater than what you have proposed. I don't see why I should jump ships because there IS no other ship to jump onto.

The problem is, that Republics are corrupt.

By their very nature, they are selective in the distribution of power, and wealth, exclusionist in terms of rights and priviliges, and prejudiced in terms of their execution and organisation.

Like all systems that attempt to centralise power, Republics polarise their populations into classes... rich and poor, educated and ignorant, etc.

Like all systems that attempt to federate, the Federal Republic is massively overblown, filled with huge redundancy, and almost submerged beneath the weight of built-in advocacy and pressure.

I do not believe that a Republic was the best choice for Founding, and I believe it is one of the worst models currently available now.

The only reason it was selected then, is the same reason it is STILL in power today... money talks, and power is seductive.

And yet... I work for a municipality, and pay taxes to that federal government... I serve the Republic... I just don't believe in it.

Regarding the 'war on terror'... Americans are losing their lives, today, because they are in harm's way. If they were all still here, they'd still be alive.

Yes - there was a terrorist act on the WTC... but you know what... terrorism is not new! The IRA have been carrying out terrorist acts for a century.

But, the worst part is... the fact that the government has somehow gulled the people into the belief that a 'war on terror' is the reason we are repairing pipelines in our newly controlled Iraqi oil-fields...

Well said, Chancellor Vellorum.

I'll tell you what. Make this world government almost EXACTLY as America was initially founded on. Seriously the SAME Constitution and wording. (Unfortunately sans the AWESOME sigs) same rights ensured and workings of the government sans prohibition.

MAYBE then I'll consider it. There WILL be problems in this government. MASSIVE future problems that I can foresee, but I will DEFINITELY be less hostile to that government.

The only BIG issue I will have is I will now have an even LESSER voice than I do in the US. Which is a ***** since I am already in a minority position here. So I won't be signing up the first day its created unfortunately.
i wasn't saying anything specific about a world government, just that the world would likely be a more peaceful and harmonious place if people stopped putting so much emphasis on their nationality and where their 'allegiances' lie

I hate globalisation BTW. Because it makes rich countries richer by using their economc power to marginalise the smaller nation, using the WTO/World Bank to force deals that work to the advantage of no-one but the ones in the western companies near the top.

be proud of your acheivements fine, just remember your acheivements mean nothing in the NOW. In the THEN your acheivements mattered, in the NOW and in the FUTURE you need new acheivements to prove your merits.

I don't think of it that way. I use our achievements and shames as a GUIDE for future actions. Sort of like the Japanese prisoner internment during WW2. It was unconstitutional. It was also a insight for experience to know IT CAN HAPPEN. Thus, the shame comes in and I try to advert such shameful behavior.

I am also PROUD of our origins and the defense Americans provided for their country in WW2. I look up to them. I try to emulate the nobleness of them. I use it as a guide to make my decisions in the future.

So, I know your off on a hater spree. But I can NOT agree with you because it IS my moral compass.

Republics need something else that is why. They need another branch. I hate to sound like another damned Star Wars fan not knowing anything, but they need a council like the Jedi to be a BIGGER counterwieght to the government politicians. A sort of highly selective defense against legal deterioration. The council would consists of educated members THROUGHLY taught in the Repubic's intention and basicly act as a think tank and organization to clean the political dirth that clogs up through either assassinations or political assassinations. The American Revolution kind of had this in its OWN principle members. Unfortunately we don't see it because THEY WERE THE THE GOVERNMENT. They were in all three branches and died off eventually.

Anyway, a Republic form of government has proven itself greater than what you have proposed. I don't see why I should jump ships because there IS no other ship to jump onto.

I suppose that all depends on what you think I have proposed.

But it remains, Republics are corrupt. They centralise power in the hands of the few.

They claim to be 'democratic', but they limit who has actually has any power.

They protect the interests of those who already have power and wealth, adn they are unassailbale by those who do NOT already have power and wealth.

The American 'government' is a mockery. The elections are farce.

The sooner the US admits it is a theocracy, the better. At least then you know to call Uncle Sam "your holiness" while he pushes you over the barrel.

Well said, Chancellor Vellorum.


Aaaah, crap. Isn't being Chancellor Vellorum a surefire ticket to messy disposal, two scenes later?

I suppose that all depends on what you think I have proposed.

But it remains, Republics are corrupt. They centralise power in the hands of the few.

They claim to be 'democratic', but they limit who has actually has any power.

They protect the interests of those who already have power and wealth, adn they are unassailbale by those who do NOT already have power and wealth.

The American 'government' is a mockery. The elections are farce.

The sooner the US admits it is a theocracy, the better. At least then you know to call Uncle Sam "your holiness" while he pushes you over the barrel.

The few must remain noble in a Republic, granted, just as your claims of AN ENTIRE POPULACE OF A COUNTRY which believe me is an even HARDER goal.

I already explain why absolute democracy can NOT work.

But our Republic COULD use a modification to make it better. A think tank council who only tries to get the members that most emulate the noble behavior of the founders, AND allows the Republic some allowances in behavior as well as be VERY mindful of the Republican principle might be a good modification. For our republic has no real defense against corruption outside of voter vigilance which I'm sorry to say isn't as great as it should be.

As much as I'm a palo-conservative, I would support looking into a possible initiative into such an organization.

I am also PROUD of our origins and the defense Americans provided for their country in WW2.

What defence?

The government concealed documents and information that allowed Japanese ships to get within striking distance, and STILL refused to send any advance warnings.

Pearl Harbour was an artifact tailored by the American government, to give them an excuse to get involved in the second world war.

Hardly a 'defence' to be proud of.

I suppose that all depends on what you think I have proposed.

But it remains, Republics are corrupt. They centralise power in the hands of the few.

They claim to be 'democratic', but they limit who has actually has any power.

They protect the interests of those who already have power and wealth, adn they are unassailbale by those who do NOT already have power and wealth.

The American 'government' is a mockery. The elections are farce.

The sooner the US admits it is a theocracy, the better. At least then you know to call Uncle Sam "your holiness" while he pushes you over the barrel.

No, it's definitely a Republic. The Democratic Party wants to vote the contents of the Treasury (and any other money to come) to the people who voted for them, and the Republican Party wants to vote inane laws into being concerning morality.

Both parties excel at warmongering - it feeds the military-industrial complex that feeds them both.

We're not a theocracy yet. I bet that if 9-11 had not happened, Bush would have been a one term President, and the nation would not have taken this theocratic bent.

Make the war a religious one, and people who used to sit on the fence with their religious beliefs will suddenly hop off and take a stand.

Hollywood has long made war on Christianity in the US - it's a staple of most movies to make fun of or castigate Christianity - it rarely is shown in a positive light.

And now the more radical members of Islam have framed their rage as a holy war.

Makes a lot of people angry, and angry people join churches.

What defence?

The government concealed documents and information that allowed Japanese ships to get within striking distance, and STILL refused to send any advance warnings.

Pearl Harbour was an artifact tailored by the American government, to give them an excuse to get involved in the second world war.

Hardly a 'defence' to be proud of.

*sigh* I was talking about the defense that the generation did provide. Put women to work, organized themselves into a fighting force, and created an immensely powerful warmachine and kept the fight up. I'm not going to second guess Rosevelt's possible wrongful action regarding that because THAT IS NOT WHAT I WAS BEING PROUD OF TO BEGIN WITH.

Furthermore, we didn't provoke the attack. That means a lot in the justification cause.

Like I said - the 'mob' is determined by the education of it's members.

If the US wasn't tending towards being a rightwing theocracy, Bush could never have been elected by a popular vote.


Actually, if we didn't have the government and the media claiming that there are only two parties in this country, or if the democrats could have posted someone that had more of a personality--which was as limp as the botox injections made his face--maybe things could have been different.

So....who determines what is taught? If the mob can't decide that for themselves now (since you're the one that thinks the US is turning into a theocracy), how can they educate themselves to the opposite? Sounds like some outside force would be necessary. Not very democratic, if someone's controlling the mob, now is it?

The few must remain noble in a Republic, granted, just as your claims of AN ENTIRE POPULACE OF A COUNTRY which believe me is an even HARDER goal.

I already explain why absolute democracy can NOT work.

But our Republic COULD use a modification to make it better. A think tank council who only tries to get the members that most emulate the noble behavior of the founders, AND allows the Republic some allowances in behavior as well as be VERY mindful of the Republican principle might be a good modification. For our republic has no real defense against corruption outside of voter vigilance which I'm sorry to say isn't as great as it should be.

As much as I'm a palo-conservative, I would support looking into a possible initiative into such an organization.

'Voter vigiliance' is worth less than nothing. Why? Because the electorate do not nominate the regime... they pick representatives, from those already in a position to curry favour, and THOSE representatives wield the power of decision. Worth noting, also - that they do not necessarily follow 'good conscience' even then... in the last election Republican representatives from both Nebraska (I think) and Alaska said they would be non-partisan in their dealings with Washington... yet, both still cast electoral votes for a Republican president.

So - 'voter vigilance' is worth less than nothing... because it is useless, yet gives the IMPRESSION of function.

And, I'm afraid, the easiest and best change that should be made to the Republic, is to make it a closer parallel to Democracy... in as much as removing the whole electoral college mechanism, and make ACTUAL votes cast, count towards the result of an election.

In fact - let's go one step further... and make it a Proportional Democracy. Let each 50,000 votes cast count for one seat in the government... no matter which ward or territory, no matter which party wins, or which presidential candidate is selected BY THE PEOPLE.

A Constitution IS a good idea, but the procedure of ratification needs to be changed to take the power out of the hands of corruptible individuals. The ONLY way to amend the Cnstitution, should be through a legal review process.

*sigh* I was talking about the defense that the generation did provide. Put women to work, organized themselves into a fighting force, and created an immensely powerful warmachine and kept the fight up. I'm not going to second guess Rosevelt's possible wrongful action regarding that because THAT IS NOT WHAT I WAS BEING PROUD OF TO BEGIN WITH.

Furthermore, we didn't provoke the attack. That means a lot in the justification cause.

Read around the subject... much of the material is only recently declassified.

Coordinates were given to a Japanese fleet, specifically targetting the location of American vessels that were not 'active'.

Radio transmissions were intercepted and then 'buried'. Officers were told they were NOT to relay warnings, or the messages, to the waiting American forces.

Information had been collected by American, and other, agencies for a year beforehand... detailing not only the date of the attack on Pearl Harbour, but also the direction of the attack, and the approximate hour. This information was not released.

The American people should be up in arms about this... but, as you said earlier, I believe... they are too apathetic.

By the way - direct insults to Japanese diplomats and government, etc... there is plenty of supporting evidence that the US government did indeed 'provoke' the attack, and then deliberately concealed it until it was too late, to score a higher bodycount, perhaps.... a better motivation for war.

'Voter vigiliance' is worth less than nothing. Why? Because the electorate do not nominate the regime... they pick representatives, from those already in a position to curry favour, and THOSE representatives wield the power of decision. Worth noting, also - that they do not necessarily follow 'good conscience' even then... in the last election Republican representatives from both Nebraska (I think) and Alaska said they would be non-partisan in their dealings with Washington... yet, both still cast electoral votes for a Republican president.

So - 'voter vigilance' is worth less than nothing... because it is useless, yet gives the IMPRESSION of function.

And, I'm afraid, the easiest and best change that should be made to the Republic, is to make it a closer parallel to Democracy... in as much as removing the whole electoral college mechanism, and make ACTUAL votes cast, count towards the result of an election.

In fact - let's go one step further... and make it a Proportional Democracy. Let each 50,000 votes cast count for one seat in the government... no matter which ward or territory, no matter which party wins, or which presidential candidate is selected BY THE PEOPLE.

A Constitution IS a good idea, but the procedure of ratification needs to be changed to take the power out of the hands of corruptible individuals. The ONLY way to amend the Cnstitution, should be through a legal review process.

That is exactly what I meant about voter vigiliance not being what it should. I am not a big proponent of porportional voting as you mentioned due to a personal issue I have with it being regional differences in culture and such. But don't worry about that. I can likely be argued into supporting it if presented in a good constitutional argument so lets ignore that issue.

But the WHOLE purpose I said of modification of... well lets just call them "Jedi" (hey.. its a reason to make lightsabers or something) council was in fact to provide a legal interior defense against interior corruption by using highly educated members as its committe to discuss cleaning up. (They would have to be HIGHLY restricted and various other control mechanisms) We can not do this politically first since it would become another electoral college which has become completely devoid of its initial purpose. It would have to proceed through other means that I have in mind and gain credence overtime.

Anyway I still believe in the Republic. But I agree on benefitial reform. With that, I'm out for now.

No, it's definitely a Republic. The Democratic Party wants to vote the contents of the Treasury (and any other money to come) to the people who voted for them, and the Republican Party wants to vote inane laws into being concerning morality.


Both parties make their fair share of promises for where they will redistribute the wealth, if they win.


Both parties excel at warmongering - it feeds the military-industrial complex that feeds them both.


This, I totally agree with... war is good for an economy, and even better for an incumbent. Even Dick and Bush could get re-elected in wartime.


We're not a theocracy yet. I bet that if 9-11 had not happened, Bush would have been a one term President, and the nation would not have taken this theocratic bent.

Make the war a religious one, and people who used to sit on the fence with their religious beliefs will suddenly hop off and take a stand.


And, this is how Bush will have himself crowned Holy Roman Emperor.

That is exactly what I meant about voter vigiliance not being what it should. I am not a big proponent of porportional voting as you mentioned due to a personal issue I have with it being regional differences in culture and such. But don't worry about that. I can likely be argued into supporting it if presented in a good constitutional argument so lets ignore that issue.

But the WHOLE purpose I said of modification of... well lets just call them "Jedi" (hey.. its a reason to make lightsabers or something) council was in fact to provide a legal interior defense against interior corruption by using highly educated members as its committe to discuss cleaning up. (They would have to be HIGHLY restricted and various other control mechanisms) We can not do this politically first since it would become another electoral college which has become completely devoid of its initial purpose. It would have to proceed through other means that I have in mind and gain credence overtime.

Anyway I still believe in the Republic. But I agree on benefitial reform. With that, I'm out for now.

I agree with you that an 'elite' should moderate the government... I might even go further than you on this... because I believe that government is utterly strangled by the constant creation of study-boards and panels, etc... to investigate issues... which end up being partially governmental, partially non-specific, and partially advocates for whatever issue is being analysed...

So - smoking lobbyist form a third of the smoking investigation panel... and yet people seem surprised when the health risk assessment drags on for twenty years...


How about - change the Republic for a Constitutional Proportional Democracy.

Allow voters to have one vote... with which they can vote EITHER for a regional delegate, OR an advocate of some group... thus legitimising and regulating the presnece of Advocates in Washington.

Add an 'investigative body' of non-partisan, non-affiliated academics and others, to investigate ALL issues, and feedback with minimum fuss.

Add an 'elite' moderation force, to police the uses of power according to a living Constitution.

Add an 'elite' moderation force, to police the uses of power according to a living Constitution.

Would that be the Jedi, or the Sith?

That's one thing that bothered me - all a Jedi has to do is wave his hand and say, "This is Jedi business..."

And the good Chancellor Vellorum is Darth Sidious, the future Emperor.

Would that be the Jedi, or the Sith?

That's one thing that bothered me - all a Jedi has to do is wave his hand and say, "This is Jedi business..."

And the good Chancellor Vellorum is Darth Sidious, the future Emperor.

Palpatine, surely...

Vellorum was the poor bugger who got a vote of no confidence, because Armadillo wasn't getting her way...

Am I right?

Palpatine, surely...

Vellorum was the poor bugger who got a vote of no confidence, because Armadillo wasn't getting her way...

Am I right?
Ooops! My bad. So you're Palpatine (let's abolish the Republic, etc., etc.)

Ooops! My bad. So you're Palpatine (let's abolish the Republic, etc., etc.)

Oh, I'll happily be Palpatine in this little drama... however, where he wanted to install a cult of personality, with himself as the 'main man'... my only interests would be in a purer, more honest form of government.

Oh, I'll happily be Palpatine in this little drama... however, where he wanted to install a cult of personality, with himself as the 'main man'... my only interests would be in a purer, more honest form of government.

That's what he said.

When you speak of America being a great nation, you must acknowledge its past as the reasons for it being so. We have a proud history that starkly differentiates us from our European beginnings. Our core values are derived from the Puritan/Calvinist founding in Massachussets bay Colony, which have manifested themselves into a cultural belief that a hard days work is the way to salvation and a indicator of one's divinity. This founding principle alone has helped form America into the Economic Juggernaut that it is today. We have a broad multicultural population today, but the protestant work ethic is the one underlying myth that keeps people flocking to America. The belief that if you work hard you will suceed. There in theory is no landed aristocracy to prevent your upward mobility in society, and xenophobia is much more laxed in america than in europe. We are not worried about a minority coming in and poluting our culture, because they will blend in and add to our culture what is worth keeping. Europe cannot even maintain its current population without immigration, america has never had this problem.

That's what he said.

Damn, beat me to it... was just coming back to make that edit.... :)

National pride I think is a human need. I eases that primal need for security. In moderation it is a perfectly harmless thing. As an individual I have pride fro my accomplishments but it goes much farther then that.
I worked for a co called Cedarrapids Inc for 5 yrs. We built road pavers & rock crushers. I still feel a sense of pride for myself & all the people I worked with when I see one of our pavers at work. Company pride. I then look at the fact that my city cared enough to support it's economy by buying a locally made product & in many of the great things about the place I live. Pride in ones community. I then see the accopmplishments that are done in the State of Iowa. The education MECCA of the US. The hard working farmers & the best customer service model in the US. I have pride in thre accomplishments of my state. I see then how Iowa's contributions make a difference in our nation. Every time the Iowa test of basic skills is administered in a school. Every time someone fills up with Ethanol instead of regular unleaded. I have pride for the good accomplishments of our nation. Everytime I drive on the best road systems in the world partiallly because of my contribution to the whole I have national pride. Not to excess but in moderation.
I will never be convinced of the wrongness of that.

Best damned origins ever?

Surely you don't mean that?

Personally I don't find the massacre of the indigenous population almost to the point of extinction a glorious point in history. Not to mention that whole slavery racket. Gosh darn it. ;)
Isn't that a little hypocritical to make such a comment.
After All most Brits Scotts & Irismen are mostly Roman decendants who came in & murdered Raped & pillaged the Germanic & Nordic tribesman that were the first to populate that nick of the woods. All in the name of Catholisism too.
I wager we have a larger population of pure Indians in our culture then you do Celts.
I see the british still giving the Irish a hard time about speaking their native tongue as well.

And, this is how Bush will have himself crowned Holy Roman Emperor.

Holy crap! He's Catholic???? It IS the mob! How'd he get elected???? ;)

Europe cannot even maintain its current population without immigration, america has never had this problem.

Erm, thats not true. While its true that in the last decade or so the rate of population growth has been declining, thats true of almost every developed nation, including America. Population is still growing in Europe, just at a lower rate. The same is true in America.

Its fair to say that the main reason the UK is not as patriotic is that it is made up of a collection of countries i.e. Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and England. People are proud of their seperate country and identity rather than the country as a whole.

Its fair to say that the main reason the UK is not as patriotic is that it is made up of a collection of countries i.e. Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and England. People are proud of their seperate country and identity rather than the country as a whole.
The US is made up of 50 states & they still seem to have a cohesive sense of national pride as well as state pride. There just seems to be a lot more whiskey under the bridge between these countries then there are the states. We've only had 1 war between our states in our nations history & we all hope it never happens again. Is there a period in history where the UK has gone over 100yrs without a conflict of some sort? Perhaps if you all collectively embraced your differences rather then squabble over them you could find pride in the whole too.

There's plenty of general bad blood between us.

Also we just look at much of our past and shudder.

When you speak of America being a great nation, you must acknowledge its past as the reasons for it being so. We have a proud history that starkly differentiates us from our European beginnings. Our core values are derived from the Puritan/Calvinist founding in Massachussets bay Colony, which have manifested themselves into a cultural belief that a hard days work is the way to salvation and a indicator of one's divinity. This founding principle alone has helped form America into the Economic Juggernaut that it is today. We have a broad multicultural population today, but the protestant work ethic is the one underlying myth that keeps people flocking to America. The belief that if you work hard you will suceed. There in theory is no landed aristocracy to prevent your upward mobility in society, and xenophobia is much more laxed in america than in europe. We are not worried about a minority coming in and poluting our culture, because they will blend in and add to our culture what is worth keeping. Europe cannot even maintain its current population without immigration, america has never had this problem.

The Puritan morons in Mass. had little to do with this nations founding, they weren't even original... Virginia was founded in 1607, the Puritans didn't arrive in Massachusetts till 1630.

The Puritans just came over and started repeating the same heinous acts on others, that they were subject to under the Crown.

On the other hand, Virginia, founded by anglicans and Presbyterians, setup freedom of religion.

Maryland, founded by Catholics, set up freedom of religion.

Pennsylvania, founded by Dutch Anabaptists, and later Quakers as well, set up freedom of religion.

"Providence Plantation", later becomming Rhode Island, set up freedom of religion (and was founded by persons FLEEING religious persecution in Massachusetts Bay Colony at that!).

Sorry, "precious Massachusetts" puritanism was not in any way a basis for this nations ideals... In fact, it was the VERY OPPOSITE of the Puritans ideals, and that of the heinousness they brought back with them from Europe, that resulted in the foundational ideals of this country and its colonies. It was the religious wars and bloodshed of Europe, that pressed Colonial Christians, from many of those European camps on both sides of the bloodshed, that resulted in realized the precept and importance of religious liberties, and democratic ideals, which formed the basis of the Colonial Governments.... From the very first American Colonial Government (Virginia).

Isn't that a little hypocritical to make such a comment.
After All most Brits Scotts & Irismen are mostly Roman decendants who came in & murdered Raped & pillaged the Germanic & Nordic tribesman that were the first to populate that nick of the woods. All in the name of Catholisism too.
I wager we have a larger population of pure Indians in our culture then you do Celts.
I see the british still giving the Irish a hard time about speaking their native tongue as well.

As far as the Romans are concerned, you've got it completely wrong. The Germanic and Nordics (as you describe them) came after the Romans left. Rome wasn't Catholic when it invaded Britain the second time. You can't possibly 'have more pure Indians then we do Celts, the Irish, Scots, Welsh and some Cornish are all Celts. As for the Brits interfering in the Irish language, you must be reading something about 60 years old.

When you speak of America being a great nation, you must acknowledge its past as the reasons for it being so. We have a proud history that starkly differentiates us from our European beginnings. Our core values are derived from the Puritan/Calvinist founding in Massachussets bay Colony, which have manifested themselves into a cultural belief that a hard days work is the way to salvation and a indicator of one's divinity. This founding principle alone has helped form America into the Economic Juggernaut that it is today. We have a broad multicultural population today, but the protestant work ethic is the one underlying myth that keeps people flocking to America. The belief that if you work hard you will suceed. There in theory is no landed aristocracy to prevent your upward mobility in society, and xenophobia is much more laxed in america than in europe. We are not worried about a minority coming in and poluting our culture, because they will blend in and add to our culture what is worth keeping. Europe cannot even maintain its current population without immigration, america has never had this problem.

'There in theory is no landed aristocracy to prevent your upward mobility in society,'
Yes, in theory only.

' and xenophobia is much more laxed in america than in europe'
You're just plain wrong. Just look up the white supremicist sites for an example. And you're the only nation that whines about the UN.

'We are not worried about a minority coming in and poluting our culture, because they will blend in and add to our culture what is worth keeping.'
See above, read Americais' posts, read the anti-Jewish posts, anti-European posts. And it's interesting you chose the word 'polluting'.

Europe cannot even maintain its current population without immigration, america has never had this problem'
America needs immigration as much as any other country.

[QUOTE=Botswombata]. Is there a period in history where the UK has gone over 100yrs without a conflict of some sort?

Yes.

americans have sutpid, uninformed, and selfish pride...and i do have the right to say that because im an american...america the theroy where the government listens to the people and does things for the better of the WHOLE country it a a great i idea and WOULD be the greatest country in the world...but america the country is not that great...the original idea for america has been lost....we are now a county of greed, selfishness, and stupidity....where the people just don't care and aren't thankful for all of the rights that they have and are closed minded that they won't even listen to another persons point of view on the stupidest little discussion :headbang: and it very...very...VERY...frusterating

the Brits interfering in the Irish language
em.. im sorry what?!

As an Irish citizen, we are an independent state. The British government has NO say whatsoever in the status of OUR language.

just cuz america is patriotic, ur going 2 get up in it's grill? lol, but really thats stupid, and your making assumptions about the whole general american population whichh you have no right to do. Just cuz u dont like your country and dont support it as much as americans do, doesnt mean america is stupid, and there are a lot a LOT of other countries that have WAY more pride issues then the USA

just cuz america is patriotic, ur going 2 get up in it's grill? lol, but really thats stupid, and your making assumptions about the whole general american population whichh you have no right to do. Just cuz u dont like your country and dont support it as much as americans do, doesnt mean america is stupid, and there are a lot a LOT of other countries that have WAY more pride issues then the USA

i could kiss you, but i'm too disgusted by all the anti-american bullshit on the forum too stay long enough to do it. rain check

em.. im sorry what?!

As an Irish citizen, we are an independent state. The British government has NO say whatsoever in the status of OUR language.

Read the post at the top of the page. I was answering that very same stupid assertion.

Read the post at the top of the page. I was answering that very same stupid assertion.

Yeah i know :D i just quoted the wrong post :p

some muppet he is...

Isn't that a little hypocritical to make such a comment.


No.

You know far too little about me to make any such conclusion, Mr Assump Shun.