NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/world/2005/0514/925133520FR14AFGHAN.html

ISLAMIC PROTESTS: Angry protests continued across the Muslim world from Gaza to Indonesia yesterday over a report that US interrogators at Guantanamo Bay had desecrated the Koran, with calls for retaliation and a rising death toll.

Governments demanded investigations and thousands took to the streets in outrage over a Newsweek magazine report that interrogators at the US military prison in Cuba had put the Muslim holy book on toilets, in at least one case flushing it down.

In Afghanistan at least nine people were killed in protests over the report yesterday, bringing the country's death toll to 16 this week in its worst anti-American demonstrations since the fall of the Taliban.

The unrest spread to Pakistan, which called for a US inquiry. Hundreds of people held a peaceful protest in Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim nation.

In Gaza several thousand Palestinians marched through a refugee camp in a protest organised by the Islamic militant group Hamas. Several hundred Palestinians also marched in the West Bank city of Hebron.

"The Holy Koran was defiled by the dirtiest of hands, by American hands," a protester shouted at the Jabalya refugee camp in Gaza, where US and Israeli flags were also burned.

The rising violence prompted US secretary of state Condoleezza Rice to urge Muslims on Thursday to resist calls for violence, saying US military authorities were investigating the Koran allegations.

"Disrespect for the Holy Koran is abhorrent to us all," she said.

In Afghanistan and Pakistan, desecration of the Koran is punishable by death.

Indonesia said those responsible must receive a "deserved punishment" for their "immoral action". Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of Islam, said it was following the issue with "deep indignation".

Newsweek, in its May 9th edition, quoted sources as saying that investigators looking into abuses at the military prison had found that interrogators "had placed Korans on toilets, and in at least one case flushed a holy book down the toilet".

Washington is holding more than 500 prisoners from its war on terrorism at the naval base on Cuba.

Yep, the good old US preventing terrorism from rising again. :rolleyes:

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/world/2005/0514/925133520FR14AFGHAN.html



Yep, the good old US preventing terrorism from rising again. :rolleyes:

*sigh* haven't you learnt a thing?? They are protesting because they hate freedom!! duh!

Nice to see the art of Skapedroe one-sentence political analysis being kept alive in his absense.

Pah, one-sentence political analysis is fun!

It misses out a great deal, but it is still a valid, important and utterly useless thing!



->This has been a totally useless post from people who brought you beeeeeeercola!

Why isn't this stunning U.S. success appreciated?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A53781-2004Dec9.html

For almost a decade before Sept. 11, we did absolutely nothing about Afghanistan. A few cruise missiles hurled into empty tents, followed by expressions of satisfaction about the "message" we had sent. It was, in fact, a message of utter passivity and unseriousness.

Then comes our Pearl Harbor, and the sleeping giant awakens. Within 100 days, al Qaeda is routed and the Taliban overthrown. Then the first election in Afghanistan's history. Now the inauguration of a deeply respected democrat who, upon being sworn in as the legitimate president of his country, thanks America for its liberation.

This in Afghanistan, which only three years ago was not just hostile but untouchable. What do liberals have to say about this singular achievement by the Bush administration? That Afghanistan is growing poppies.

Good grief. This is news? "Afghanistan grows poppies" is the sun rising in the east. "Afghanistan inaugurates democratically elected president" is the sun rising in the west. Afghanistan has always grown poppies. What is President Bush supposed to do? Send 100,000 GIs to eradicate the crop and incite a popular rebellion?

The other complaint is that Karzai really does not rule the whole country. Again, the sun rises in the east. Afghanistan has never had a government that controlled the whole country. It has always had a central government weak by Western standards.

But Afghanistan's decentralized system works. Karzai controls Kabul, most of the major cities and much in between. And he is successfully leveraging his power to gradually extend his authority as he creates entirely new federal institutions and an entirely new military.

Again, what should Bush have done? Send another 100,000 GIs to put down warlords with local roots, local legitimacy and a ton of firepower?

What has happened in Afghanistan is nothing short of a miracle. Who is responsible for it? The New York Times gives the major credit to "the Afghan people" with their "courage and commitment." Courage and commitment there was, but the courage and commitment were curiously imperceptible until this administration conceived a radical war plan, executed it brilliantly, liberated the country and created from scratch the structures of democracy.

The interesting question is: If we succeeded in Afghanistan, why haven't we in Iraq? One would have thought Afghanistan, with its obviously less-developed human and industrial infrastructure, to be far less conducive to democracy. It is more tribal, more primitive and has even less history of modern political development.

Yet that may have been an advantage. Iraq has for decades been exposed to the ideas of political modernism -- fascism and socialism as transmuted through Baathism (heavily influenced by the European political winds of the 1920s and '30s) to which Saddam Hussein added the higher totalitarianism of his hero, Stalin. This history has succeeded in devaluing and delegitimizing secular ideologies, including liberal-democratic ones. In contrast, Afghanistan had suffered under years of appalling theocratic rule, which helped to legitimize the kind of secularist democracy that Karzai represents.

Furthermore, Afghanistan had the ironic advantage of having just come out of a quarter-century of civil war. As in Europe after World War II, the exhaustion that follows is conducive to pursuing power by peaceful political means. In contrast, Iraq's Baathists, fresh from 30 years of unimpeded looting and killing, are quite prepared to ignite a civil war in pursuit of the power and privileges they have lost.

And, finally, Afghanistan's neighbors have largely kept out of the postwar reconstruction. The most powerful and active neighbor, Pakistan, was made an ally in this effort and has supported the democracy project.

Iraq's neighbors are hostile to the United States and to our democratic project. The Baathist insurgents are heavily supported by Syria, from which some of the sheltered leadership provides funding and operational directives for guerrilla actions in Iraq. Behind Syria stands the Arab League, composed mostly of Sunni monarchs and dictators, carrying water for Iraq's Sunni minority, which ruled for 80 years.

On the other side is Iran, funneling money, fighters and, by some reports, even voters (waves of immigrants) to help elect not only a Shiite government but a theocratic Shiite government. As Iraq becomes the cockpit for the regional rivalries, internal divisions are greatly exacerbated.

This does not mean we cannot succeed. It does mean that Iraq will be very difficult. It also means that against all expectations, Afghanistan is the first graduate of the Bush Doctrine of spreading democracy in rather hostile places. A success so remarkable and an end so improbable merit at least a moment of celebration.

*sigh* haven't you learnt a thing?? They are protesting because they hate freedom!! duh!

yes, and they have nay purpose in life other than killing you.

yes, and they have nay purpose in life other than killing you.

Meh, Hamas loves me at least.

yes, and they have nay purpose in life other than killing you.
I wondered how long it would be before someone made a ridiculous sweeping generalisation about Middle East Muslims.

Nice to see the art of Skapedroe one-sentence political analysis being kept alive in his absense.
At least I didn't say "Bush neocon hypocrite corporate fascist!"

yes, and they have nay purpose in life other than killing you.

I'm usually not the best one for spotting sarcasm, but I really do think he was being sarcastic.

I wondered how long it would be before someone made a ridiculous sweeping generalisation about Middle East Muslims.


And him too, you know. Sarcasm. I think. I hope.

At least I didn't say "Bush neocon hypocrite corporate fascist!"

Isn't that rather like arguing that it could have been a worse fatal chest wound?

Interesting insane.

Why isn't this stunning U.S. success appreciated?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A53781-2004Dec9.html


So, you ignored the topic of this thread. Does that mean you agree with destroying korans?

So, you ignored the topic of this thread. Does that mean you agree with destroying korans?

Why is flushing a big wad of paper covered in ink down a toilet worth killing people over? Especially when you're ignoring what said wad of paper says anyway?

5:8 O ye who believe! Be steadfast witnesses for Allah in equity, and let not hatred of any people seduce you that ye deal not justly.

41:34 The good deed and the evil deed are not alike. Repel the evil deed with one which is better, then lo! he, between whom and thee there was enmity (will become) as though he was a bosom friend.

Why is flushing a big wad of paper covered in ink down a toilet worth killing people over? Especially when you're ignoring what said wad of paper says anyway?

5:8 O ye who believe! Be steadfast witnesses for Allah in equity, and let not hatred of any people seduce you that ye deal not justly.

41:34 The good deed and the evil deed are not alike. Repel the evil deed with one which is better, then lo! he, between whom and thee there was enmity (will become) as though he was a bosom friend.

I never said killing people over flushing a koran down a toilet wasnt stupid, because it is, obviously. But provoking provoking people into killing by doing that is equally stupid.

edit:damn, what a stupid way to use my 1000th post.

Eh?

I think its just justified that they felt that way. I, too will make a protest if my [Insert name of Holy Book] was being flushed down into the toilet... Eventhough it would not be a peaceful one.

Eh?

I think its just justified that they felt that way. I, too will make a protest if my [Insert name of Holy Book] was being flushed down into the toilet... Eventhough it would not be a peaceful one.

When said holy book advocates repaying hatred with kindness? If you ignore the contents of your holy book every time you get pissed off at something, you're the one flushing it down the toilet.

When said holy book advocates repaying hatred with kindness? If you ignore the contents of your holy book every time you get pissed off at something, you're the one flushing it down the toilet.
I think it could probably go unsaid that terrorists are terrible Muslims and a disgrace to the religion, but not all in the Middle east are terrorists or like them. It is understandable that they would be angry with the US for this.

And for those who are more favourable towards islamic terrorism, this is one of those things that pushes them towards actually becoming a terrorist.

So, you ignored the topic of this thread. Does that mean you agree with destroying korans?

Yep.

Saudi Arabia has voiced "deep indignation" at reports that a copy of the Koran was desecrated at the US prison at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4543373.stm

...which is because we have these people arrested. Because we're involved in the Middle East. Which happened becuase of 9-11.

So: If we have to offend some people's delicate sensibilities to get information out of them, that's too bad. I assure you that the guys flying the planes into the towers didn't ask the passengers if they wanted to go.

And, IF these allegations are indeed true, then I'm sure that the US will deal with those responsible, just as they did with the Abu Ghraib troops.

If the Saudis had not allowed radical Islam to flourish in their own nation, NONE of this would have happened.

The desecration of the Koran, if true, would be a psychological tool to intimidate a believer and cause despair.This could be used against christian fundamentalists and jewish fundamentalists as well.
The problem with this particular thinking is that it shows a complete ignorance of religious fanaticism and the underlying motivation of its adherents.

Only through education/knowledge can the human species rise above the ravages of religious fanaticism.Torture, desecration, despair nor sarcasm will do aught but solidify their beliefs.The US government should have learned this at WACO, Texas.It is obvious they haven't, and terror will continue.

Please, the Saudi Arabian government sanctions the conviscation and destruction of any Bibles taken into its borders.

Please, the Saudi Arabian government sanctions the conviscation and destruction of any Bibles taken into its borders.

Is that the Two Wrongs Make a Right Fallacy (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/two-wrongs-make-a-right.html)?

The desecration of the Koran, if true, would be a psychological tool to intimidate a believer and cause despair.This could be used against christian fundamentalists and jewish fundamentalists as well.
The problem with this particular thinking is that it shows a complete ignorance of religious fanaticism and the underlying motivation of its adherents.

Only through education/knowledge can the human species rise above the ravages of religious fanaticism.Torture, desecration, despair nor sarcasm will do aught but solidify their beliefs.The US government should have learned this at WACO, Texas.It is obvious they haven't, and terror will continue.

I agree: it could cause dispair. That's the whole POINT of interrogation!
It doesn't show an ignorance of fanaticism, it USES fanaticism against itself!

As opposed to what the Saudi government does?

http://www.cato.org/research/articles/bandow-020816.html

Evangelical activity in Saudi Arabia, for instance, can earn a foreigner prison time; death rewards the Christian convert.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/relsaudiarabia00.html

Under Shari'a (Islamic law), upon which the Government bases its jurisprudence, conversion by a Muslim to another religion is considered apostasy. Public apostasy is a crime punishable by death if the accused does not recant.

The Government prohibits public non-Muslim religious activities. Non-Muslim worshippers risk arrest, lashing, and deportation for engaging in overt religious activity that attracts official attention. During the period covered by this report, two group arrests were made after religious police raided large Christian congregations during services that were held on Friday, the Muslim day of rest.

Proselytizing by non-Muslims is illegal, including the distribution of non-Muslim religious materials such as Bibles. No foreign missionaries operate legally in the country. During the period covered by this report, two Filipino men were arrested, charged with proselytizing, and forced to serve approximately 2 months in prison and subsequently were deported.

Customs officials routinely open mail and shipments to search for contraband, including material that is deemed pornographic, and non-Muslim religious material. Customs officials confiscated or censored materials considered offensive, including Bibles and religious videotapes.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/1999/426.htm

Is that the Two Wrongs Make a Right Fallacy (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/two-wrongs-make-a-right.html)?

More like the "play by the same rules" idea. You know, the one we didn't adhere to, so that the US from didn't win in Viet Nam.

Why isn't this stunning U.S. success appreciated?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A53781-2004Dec9.html

Let's see if I can explain this the way Bush might if he weren't an incorrigable liar.

The problem with Afghanistan's new found democracy is that it's in name only. The government has no power beyond the capital.

In other words, Bush has established the Islamic Republic of Kabul amid the lawless sea of anarchy that was ruled by our drug-war allies in the Taleban.

In other words, we done dropped a shit load of freedom on 'em.

Let's see if I can explain this the way Bush might if he weren't an incorrigable liar.

The problem with Afghanistan's new found democracy is that it's in name only. The government has no power beyond the capital.

Did you read the article? If so, please name an Afghan government that ever had power outside of it's capital. Any time in the past several hundred years will do.

In other words, Bush has established the Islamic Republic of Kabul amid the lawless sea of anarchy that was ruled by our drug-war allies in the Taleban.

In other words, we done dropped a shit load of freedom on 'em.

Which is still a lot better than it *was*. I heard that even Rome wasn't built in a day. :)

All I see is revnge against one another. Americans against the Middle East and the Middle East against America. As long as this cycle continues, people will still have a viruhent hatred for the US.

All I see is revnge against one another. Americans against the Middle East and the Middle East against America. As long as this cycle continues, people will still have a viruhent hatred for the US.

And the alternative is?

Is that the Two Wrongs Make a Right Fallacy (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/two-wrongs-make-a-right.html)?

No, its highlighting a hypocracy. Im not saying that this makes the situation here somehow better but look at it this way. In this American case, its not sanctioned by the government and it is unlikely to be widescale. Where as for the Saudi's it IS sanctioned by the govenment and they have a series of instutions to enforce it.

No, its highlighting a hypocracy. Im not saying that this makes the situation here somehow better but look at it this way. In this American case, its not sanctioned by the government and it is unlikely to be widescale. Where as for the Saudi's it IS sanctioned by the govenment and they have a series of instutions to enforce it.

That would only be hypocritical if someone here were saying the desecration of the Koran is wrong wheras what the Saudi government does to Bibles is acceptable, and I don't think anyone here has said that. So your point is pretty irrelevant.

And the alternative is?
To be rather blunt, don't fuck with people.

Eh?

I think its just justified that they felt that way. I, too will make a protest if my [Insert name of Holy Book] was being flushed down into the toilet... Eventhough it would not be a peaceful one.specially if it was a foreign muslim soldier desecrating my holy book or pissing on my church...I would protest too.

That would only be hypocritical if someone here were saying the desecration of the Koran is wrong wheras what the Saudi government does to Bibles is acceptable, and I don't think anyone here has said that. So your point is pretty irrelevant.

Erm. Thats what I am saying, and what many people have been saying for ages. It just never gets any publicity. The Saudi government recieve virtually no criticism for their anti-Christian policies yet whenever there is a slight display of Anti-Islam in America the world comes out in mocking scorn.

*sigh* haven't you learnt a thing?? They are protesting because they hate freedom!! duh!

WHAT! they dont hate freedom you idiot. its new to them and they're just starting to learn to adjust to it (at least the ones in Iraq). Besides, their lives basically revolve around religion, so if an important religious symbol is dishonored, of course they're going to be upset. you are the one who hasnt learned anything.

Erm. Thats what I am saying, and what many people have been saying for ages. It just never gets any publicity.

Gotcha, I think. My point was that what the Saudis do to Bibles is actually totally irrelevant to this discussion.

And, Ainthenar, I think Monkeypimp was being sarky there.

WHAT! they dont hate freedom you idiot. its new to them and they're just starting to learn to adjust to it (at least the ones in Iraq). Besides, their lives basically revolve around religion, so if an important religious symbol is dishonored, of course they're going to be upset. you are the one who hasnt learned anything.

Ainthenar falls down Monkeypimp's sarchasm. ANGRY IDIOT DOES NOT FORGIVE.

Gotcha, I think. My point was that what the Saudis do to Bibles is actually totally irrelevant to this discussion.


Actually I disagree

Its the defacement of a holy book and its being ignored, despite the fact that it happens on an instutional scale, it is officially sanctioned and an offical government policy.

This case is proberbly one or two soldiers, an extremely isolated incident, unsanctioned and unoffical.

I think the former is far worse than the latter. Certianly if the American government took up that policy to the Quran there would be massive uproar. Why the Saudi's believe its acceptable for Bibles is beyond me.

Ainthenar falls down Monkeypimp's sarchasm. ANGRY IDIOT DOES NOT FORGIVE.


Boom!


and g'night all.

To be rather blunt, don't fuck with people.

USS Cole:
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2000/514/uss-cole.jpg

African Embassy:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/images/africa/july-dec98/bomb3.jpg

Pentagon:
http://www.hilltoptimes.com/Images/story_photos/157/pentagon%209-11.jpg

WTC:
http://www.worldtradecenterphotos.com/images/after/wtc66.jpg

You're right. They shouldn't have fucked with us.

Why the Saudi's believe its acceptable for Bibles is beyond me.

Um, because the Bible as a book is not held in the same regard as the Qu'ran, for a start. Islam demands the Qu'ran is treated with great respect, Christianity allows The Bible to be left in hotel rooms for people to use as a coaster.

Um, because the Bible as a book is not held in the same regard as the Qu'ran, for a start. Islam demands the Qu'ran is treated with great respect, Christianity allows The Bible to be left in hotel rooms for people to use as a coaster.

While its not anti dogmatic to treat a Bible with disrespect as it is with a Quran, it is still unacceptable to burn books. Particually religious ones of only one religion.

Yep.

Saudi Arabia has voiced "deep indignation" at reports that a copy of the Koran was desecrated at the US prison at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4543373.stm

...which is because we have these people arrested. Because we're involved in the Middle East. Which happened becuase of 9-11.

So: If we have to offend some people's delicate sensibilities to get information out of them, that's too bad. I assure you that the guys flying the planes into the towers didn't ask the passengers if they wanted to go.

And, IF these allegations are indeed true, then I'm sure that the US will deal with those responsible, just as they did with the Abu Ghraib troops.

If the Saudis had not allowed radical Islam to flourish in their own nation, NONE of this would have happened.



do you know something about the reichstagsbrannt?

thats where hitlers troops burned down the german council and said it was the commies...

and now apply that to 9/11
9/11 gave all reasons for the oil-pipe war in afghanistan and the oil-only war in iraq....

sorry but the american government uses old tactics and the american people think like in the midages...

god bless old europe

Actually I disagree

Its the defacement of a holy book and its being ignored, despite the fact that it happens on an instutional scale, it is officially sanctioned and an offical government policy.

This case is proberbly one or two soldiers, an extremely isolated incident, unsanctioned and unoffical.

I think the former is far worse than the latter. Certianly if the American government took up that policy to the Quran there would be massive uproar. Why the Saudi's believe its acceptable for Bibles is beyond me.
Actually, that, oh Saudi Arabia does it too, argument would hold some water if it were only Saudi's at Guantanamo, but there are many different kinds of Muslims/Arabs being held in Guantanamo. And it's not like any of those prisoners have the power to control what their government does anyway, that's the equivalent of a Japanese person spitting on me because the US nuked their country twice. I think their could have been another way to deal with Japan, other than nukes, we just wanted to show the USSR who was boss at the same time. :rolleyes:

And anyway, I'm sure the command at Guantanamo knew what was happening. In a prison of that security, it would probably be hard to do anything without someone noticing. I'm assuming this was ordered, look at how Rumsfeld defined torture, they could most likely get away with flusing the Qu'ran down the toilets too.

USS Cole:
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2000/514/uss-cole.jpg

African Embassy:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/images/africa/july-dec98/bomb3.jpg

Pentagon:
http://www.hilltoptimes.com/Images/story_photos/157/pentagon%209-11.jpg

WTC:
http://www.worldtradecenterphotos.com/images/after/wtc66.jpg

You're right. They shouldn't have fucked with us.
Actually, the US has been fucking with the mid-east for quite some time. Far before any of those incidents, those incidents were also due to Middle-Eastern countries being "fucked with".

USS Cole:
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2000/514/uss-cole.jpg

African Embassy:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/images/africa/july-dec98/bomb3.jpg

Pentagon:
http://www.hilltoptimes.com/Images/story_photos/157/pentagon%209-11.jpg

WTC:
http://www.worldtradecenterphotos.com/images/after/wtc66.jpg

You're right. They shouldn't have fucked with us.
And we shouldn't have fucked with them in retribution. Revenge is petty.

do you know something about the reichstagsbrannt?

thats where hitlers troops burned down the german council and said it was the commies...

and now apply that to 9/11
9/11 gave all reasons for the oil-pipe war in afghanistan and the oil-only war in iraq....

sorry but the american government uses old tactics and the american people think like in the midages...

god bless old europe

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/GMCMA/Other%20stuff/Troll.jpg

Why isn't this stunning U.S. success appreciated?

Then comes our Pearl Harbor, and the sleeping giant awakens. Within 100 days, al Qaeda is routed and the Taliban overthrown. Then the first election in Afghanistan's history. Now the inauguration of a deeply respected democrat who, upon being sworn in as the legitimate president of his country, thanks America for its liberation.

Hm... I heard Karzai worked for an oil company before... But he was legally elected and is probably the best choice around.

This in Afghanistan, which only three years ago was not just hostile but untouchable. What do liberals have to say about this singular achievement by the Bush administration? That Afghanistan is growing poppies.

That's mainly because Afghanistan wasn't as interesting to Bush as Iraq was. That's what most of the criticism is about, that the job wasn't finished properly.

What has happened in Afghanistan is nothing short of a miracle. Who is responsible for it? The New York Times gives the major credit to "the Afghan people" with their "courage and commitment." Courage and commitment there was, but the courage and commitment were curiously imperceptible until this administration conceived a radical war plan, executed it brilliantly, liberated the country and created from scratch the structures of democracy.

Now that's not true. The burden of fighting was committed by the Afghan opposition to the Taliban. They started a new offensive in anticipation of Western intervention after 9/11. The "brilliant war plan" consisted mainly of letting Afghans do most of the work.

The interesting question is: If we succeeded in Afghanistan, why haven't we in Iraq? One would have thought Afghanistan, with its obviously less-developed human and industrial infrastructure, to be far less conducive to democracy. It is more tribal, more primitive and has even less history of modern political development.

"We" haven't done that much... and hasn't really shown itself yet.

This does not mean we cannot succeed. It does mean that Iraq will be very difficult. It also means that against all expectations, Afghanistan is the first graduate of the Bush Doctrine of spreading democracy in rather hostile places. A success so remarkable and an end so improbable merit at least a moment of celebration.
Afghanistan hasn't completed the process yet and Bush certainly hasn't been doing as much as he could. Freedom didn't seem to be on his agenda until now, hunting Osama and Saddam seemed more important.

Which is still a lot better than it *was*. I heard that even Rome wasn't built in a day. :)

True

Now please explain why, even in supposedy well led Kabul is still pretty lawless, and beyond there life has hardly changed. All Bush achieved was a renaming of the regime, and very little freedom has come out of it. Read this site (http://) there are some interesting reports on there.

And we shouldn't have fucked with them in retribution. Revenge is petty.I guess the question is: who fucked first?...USA or the Islamists.

(Disclaimer: im talking about the fighting Islamist AKA terrorists AKA freedom figthers)

Note how in discussions about the justifications of war, the topic turns inevitably toward fucking.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's all because of sex.

Excerpt from the site...
http://blog.au.org/2005/04/is_the_air_forc.html

"Last year, a team from Yale Divinity School observed the religious atmosphere at the Academy. The team was alarmed that an Academy chaplain gave a speech to cadets urging them to warn fellow cadets that those not "born again will burn in the fires of hell." The Yale report also notes that the chaplain told cadets Jesus had "called" them to the academy as part of God's plan for their lives."

http://blog.au.org/2005/04/is_the_air_forc.html

One comment made about the article...
Quote:
"Our Commander in Chief has emboldened these nuts with religious hubris....
At least the Yale Divinity School understands the seriousness of the fundamentalist Christian right...we need to get out of Iraq and get our troups back here to fight the American Christian Taliban."

A post taken from http://www.selectsmart.com/DISCUSS/list.php?f=33

It doesn't show an ignorance of fanaticism, it USES fanaticism against itself!
[quote from Markreich]

If the goal is to spread fanaticism,it worked.If the goal is to end terrorism,it didn't work.Christianity spread with martyrdom.So will Islam.

Givien the stupid actions of fanatical muslim regimes shows just how keeping the populace ignorant works.The same way the Catholics did for several hundred years.

Please, the Saudi Arabian government sanctions the conviscation and destruction of any Bibles taken into its borders.
Evangelical activity in Saudi Arabia, for instance, can earn a foreigner prison time; death rewards the Christian convert.
Are you suggesting that the US model itself on Saudi Arabia?

More like the "play by the same rules" idea. You know, the one we didn't adhere to, so that the US from didn't win in Viet Nam.
So much for our moral superiority.

And the alternative is?
Are you really that shallow as to think that there is no solution other than tit-for-tat violence? Is your support for Bush's way so staunch that you refuse to consider other options?

Look at South Africa and Northern Ireland. They solved their terrorism problems peacefully. Why can't you?

USS Cole:
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2000/514/uss-cole.jpg

African Embassy:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/images/africa/july-dec98/bomb3.jpg

Pentagon:
http://www.hilltoptimes.com/Images/story_photos/157/pentagon%209-11.jpg

WTC:
http://www.worldtradecenterphotos.com/images/after/wtc66.jpg

You're right. They shouldn't have fucked with us.
I can't believe that you're so naive as to believe that they hit at America for no particular reason. America was fucking around in the Middle East first.

The Saudi government recieve virtually no criticism for their anti-Christian policies yet whenever there is a slight display of Anti-Islam in America the world comes out in mocking scorn.
The Saudi government gets plenty of criticism for its repressive policies. I know that America gets criticism that is apparently disproportionate to its crimes, but that's because it is a superpower and its activities affect more people.

Why the Saudi's believe its acceptable for Bibles is beyond me.
It's because they're bigots. But that doesn't mean that we should be bigots too.

do you know something about the reichstagsbrannt?

thats where hitlers troops burned down the german council and said it was the commies...

and now apply that to 9/11
9/11 gave all reasons for the oil-pipe war in afghanistan and the oil-only war in iraq....

Alright, I disagree with most US Government policies, but I think it's highly unlikely that Bush planned the WTC attacks. Back to the tinfoil hat with you.

WHAT! they dont hate freedom you idiot. its new to them and they're just starting to learn to adjust to it (at least the ones in Iraq). Besides, their lives basically revolve around religion, so if an important religious symbol is dishonored, of course they're going to be upset. you are the one who hasnt learned anything.
Hello, friend! For just $19.95 I will sell you a first-class sarcasm detector! It works over the internet too!

Note how in discussions about the justifications of war, the topic turns inevitably toward fucking.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's all because of sex.
:D

I guess the question is: who fucked first?...USA or the Islamists.

(Disclaimer: im talking about the fighting Islamist AKA terrorists AKA freedom figthers)

Hmm:

• 1983 April 18 U.S. Embassy Bombing in Beirut, Lebanon kills 63
• 1983 September 23 Gulf Air Flight 771 is bombed, killing all 117 people on board
• 1983 October 23 Marine Barracks Bombing in Beirut kills 241 U.S. Marines. 58 French troops from the multinational force are also killed in a separate attack.
• 1985 TWA Flight 847 hijacking
• 1985 October 7 - October 10 Achille Lauro cruise ship hijacking by Palestinian Liberation Front, during which passenger Leon Klinghoffer is shot dead.
• 1985 EgyptAir Flight 648 hijacked by Abu Nidal group, flown to Malta, where Egyptian commandos storm plane; 60 are killed by gunfire and explosions.
• 1986 TWA Flight 840 bombed on approach to Athens airport; 4 Americans, including an infant, are killed.
• 1986 April 6 the La Belle discotheque in Berlin, a known hangout for U.S. soldiers, was bombed, killing 3 and injuring 230 people, for which Libya is held responsible. In retaliation, the US bombs Libya in Operation El Dorado Canyon and tries to kill dictator Qaddafi.
• 1986 Pan Am Flight 73, an American civilian airliner, is hijacked; 22 people die when plane is stormed in Karachi, Pakistan.
• 1988 Pan Am Flight 103 bombing (Lockerbie). The worst act of terrorism against the United States prior to September 11, 2001.
• 1989 Avianca Flight 203 bombed over Colombia
• 1993 February 26 World Trade Center bombing kills 6 and injures over 1000 people
• 1993 Failed New York City landmark bomb plot
• 1993 Mir Aimal Kansi, a Pakistani, fires an AK-47 assault rifle into cars waiting at a stoplight in front of the Central Intelligence Agency headquarters. Two died.
• 1994 December 11 A small bomb explodes on board Philippine Airlines Flight 434, killing a Japanese businessman. Authorities found out that Ramzi Yousef planted the bomb to test it for his planned terrorist attack.
• 1995 Operation Bojinka is discovered on a laptop computer in a Manila, Philippines apartment by authorities after an apartment fire occurred in the apartment.
• 1995 Bombing of military compound in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia
• 1996 June 25 Khobar Towers bombing
• 1997 A terrorist opened fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State Building in New York City, killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the United States, Argentina, Switzerland and France before turning the gun on himself. A handwritten note carried by the gunman claimed this was a punishment attack against the "enemies of Palestine".
• 1998 U.S. embassy bombings in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania and Nairobi, Kenya, killing 225 people and injuring more than 4,000.
• 1999 Ahmed Ressam is arrested on the United States-Canada border in Port Angeles, Washington; he confessed to planning to bomb the Los Angeles International Airport as part of the 2000 millennium attack plots
• 1999 Jordanian authorities foil a plot to bomb US and Israeli tourists in Jordan and pick up 28 suspects as part of the 2000 millennium attack plots
• 2000 The last of the 2000 millennium attack plots fails, as the boat meant to bomb USS The Sullivans sinks
• 2000 October 12 USS Cole bombing kills 17 US sailors
• 2001 September 11, 2001 attacks kill almost 3,000 in a series of hijacked airliner crashes into two landmarks: the World Trade Center in New York City, New York, and The Pentagon in Arlington, Virginia. A fourth plane crashes in Somerset County, Pennsylvania.
• 2001 Paris embassy attack plot foiled
• 2001 Richard Reid, attempting to destroy American Airlines Flight 63, is subdued by passengers and flight attendants before he could detonate his shoe bomb
• 2002 Singapore embassies attack plot foiled
• 2002 June 14 attack outside U.S. Consulate in Karachi
• 2002 Kidnapping and murder of journalist Daniel Pearl
• 2002 October 12 Bali car bombing of holidaymakers kills 202
• 2003 Riyadh Compound Bombings - bombings of United States expat housing compounds in Saudi Arabia kill 26 and injure 160. Al-Qaeda blamed
• 2003 Casablanca Attacks in Casablanca, Morocco leaves 41 dead. The attack involved 12 bombers and 5 targets. The targets were "Western and Jewish". Attack attributed to a Moroccan al-Qaeda-linked group
• 2003 Canal Hotel Bombing in Baghdad, Iraq kills 22 people including the top UN representative, Sergio Vieira de Mello
• 2003-2004 In response to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, the Iraqi insurgency in that country stage dozens of suicide bombings, kidnappings and several beheadings targeting Iraqi, Coalition and humanitarian targets. Attacks on some coalition forces may not be terrorist attacks under Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions which gives lawful combatant status to non-uniformed guerrillas resisting foreign occupation if they display arms openly. As neither the US or Iraq have signed this protocol it is not applicable to attacks on US forces.
• 2003 October 15 - A bomb is detonated by Palestinians against a US diplomatic convoy in the Gaza Strip killing three Americans
• 2004 May 29 Al-Khobar massacres--Islamic terrorists kill 22 people at an oil compound in Saudi Arabia.
• 2004 December 6 Suspected al Qaeda-linked group attacks U.S. consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, killing 5 local employees.

...can you tell me what the US had done against the Arabic world?

How long does one sit before one strikes back? :rolleyes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markreich
Evangelical activity in Saudi Arabia, for instance, can earn a foreigner prison time; death rewards the Christian convert.

Are you suggesting that the US model itself on Saudi Arabia?

:confused: I think there might be a point to that reply, but damned if I know what it is. My point was that the Saudis ALLOWED intollerance (Wahabism) to breed in their nation, yet are appauled when it's applied to their religion.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Markreich
More like the "play by the same rules" idea. You know, the one we didn't adhere to, so that the US from didn't win in Viet Nam.

So much for our moral superiority.

What moral superiority would that be? :rolleyes:
Fighting is no place to be noble. Our enemies give us no quarter, nor should we give them any.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markreich
And the alternative is?

Are you really that shallow as to think that there is no solution other than tit-for-tat violence?
Is your support for Bush's way so staunch that you refuse to consider other options?

No, I'm ASKING what the alternative was. See my other post about ALL the terrorist strikes at the US in the last 20 years.
I don't support Bush's way 100%. Maybe not even 75%. But Syria is out of Beriut, Libya has come clean and the Taleban is on the run.

Look at South Africa and Northern Ireland. They solved their terrorism problems peacefully. Why can't you?

Congrats. You just compared a lemon to a puppy and came up with a tweed suit.

I can't believe that you're so naive as to believe that they hit at America for no particular reason. America was fucking around in the Middle East first.

I can't believe you're so naive as to believe that the terrorist's brand is Islam doesn't want to kill you, just for being western and having liberal ideals.

Excerpt from the site...
http://blog.au.org/2005/04/is_the_air_forc.html

"Last year, a team from Yale Divinity School observed the religious atmosphere at the Academy. The team was alarmed that an Academy chaplain gave a speech to cadets urging them to warn fellow cadets that those not "born again will burn in the fires of hell." The Yale report also notes that the chaplain told cadets Jesus had "called" them to the academy as part of God's plan for their lives."

http://blog.au.org/2005/04/is_the_air_forc.html

One comment made about the article...
Quote:
"Our Commander in Chief has emboldened these nuts with religious hubris....
At least the Yale Divinity School understands the seriousness of the fundamentalist Christian right...we need to get out of Iraq and get our troups back here to fight the American Christian Taliban."

A post taken from http://www.selectsmart.com/DISCUSS/list.php?f=33

Quoting a blog on a blog is no way to give your arguement anything resembling a solid foundation.

True

Now please explain why, even in supposedy well led Kabul is still pretty lawless, and beyond there life has hardly changed. All Bush achieved was a renaming of the regime, and very little freedom has come out of it. Read this site (http://) there are some interesting reports on there.

?? what site?

Hm... I heard Karzai worked for an oil company before... But he was legally elected and is probably the best choice around.

That's mainly because Afghanistan wasn't as interesting to Bush as Iraq was. That's what most of the criticism is about, that the job wasn't finished properly.

Now that's not true. The burden of fighting was committed by the Afghan opposition to the Taliban. They started a new offensive in anticipation of Western intervention after 9/11. The "brilliant war plan" consisted mainly of letting Afghans do most of the work.

"We" haven't done that much... and hasn't really shown itself yet.

Afghanistan hasn't completed the process yet and Bush certainly hasn't been doing as much as he could. Freedom didn't seem to be on his agenda until now, hunting Osama and Saddam seemed more important.

I didn't write it, I just quoted it. :)

As for Karzai & oil company employment, I do not know, but I'd be surprised, if only because Afghanistan doesn't have much (if any) and he was living in the west most of his life.

And we shouldn't have fucked with them in retribution. Revenge is petty.

Please see the list of attacks in this post:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8884396&postcount=54

When is it "revenge" and when is it "fighting back". Note that all of these are in the last 20 or so years, and against American targets.

The US isn't perfect. No one is. But can someone really tell me what started it all? And don't tell me that it was solely for supporting Israel... nothing has just one cause, especially not an issue this large.

They're pissed off because we desecrate their sacred object yet they've been burning American Flags for years. I can also garuntee that somewhere in the world before this happened there was a bible being desecrated upon by a Muslim.

Hypocrites are beautiful and should cherished before they are executed. ;)

Note how in discussions about the justifications of war, the topic turns inevitably toward fucking.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's all because of sex.Note that most forumists do not use the F-word as it is defined.

~Czardas, Supreme Ruler of the Universe

They're pissed off because we desecrate their sacred object yet they've been burning American Flags for years. I can also garuntee that somewhere in the world before this happened there was a bible being desecrated upon by a Muslim.

Hypocrites are beautiful and should cherished before they are executed. ;)

You're justifying your own faults, by the faults of others? That just brings everyone down on the same, low level. Why not try to be the better men/women instead?

You're justifying your own faults, by the faults of others? That just brings everyone down on the same, low level. Why not try to be the better men/women instead?

Nowhere did I say it was justified nor did I approve of it in any way, but why is it that when we do such things we're nailed to a cross for it. It's almost unfair to expect the United States to be perfect although we should and could be setting a better example.

I wish we could be the better person but no matter where you live there's always one or in this case many assholes to make a bad representation for the whole.

How long does one sit before one strikes back? :rolleyes:

You'd be surprised just how long a Muslim can patiently wait to retaliate. Sometimes generations. It's sort of like the Sicilians ... and much of the Sicilian culture comes from Muslim influence.

Incidently, for anyone who needs a real guide:

http://www.muskurahat.com/islam/teachjihad.asp

:D

Have fun!

How big a moron do you feel like now that the koran flushing story has been exposed as a lie?

prove that I am a leftist

Posting a tantrum thread using a bogus news story. Next request?

You'd be surprised just how long a Muslim can patiently wait to retaliate. Sometimes generations. It's sort of like the Sicilians ... and much of the Sicilian culture comes from Muslim influence.

Incidently, for anyone who needs a real guide:

http://www.muskurahat.com/islam/teachjihad.asp

:D

Have fun!
That site has some odd pages on it...
http://www.muskurahat.com/islam/saynococa.asp

Posting a tantrum thread using a bogus news story. Next request?
:rolleyes:
Way to flamebait.

Swimmingpool is actually on the centre-right, not the left.

do you know something about the reichstagsbrannt?

thats where hitlers troops burned down the german council and said it was the commies...

and now apply that to 9/11
9/11 gave all reasons for the oil-pipe war in afghanistan and the oil-only war in iraq....

sorry but the american government uses old tactics and the american people think like in the midages...

god bless old europe
WOO! I knew there had to be at least one psycho "Bush was behind 9-11" conspiracy nutjob on here!

*goes to collect winnings from bets*

You'd be surprised just how long a Muslim can patiently wait to retaliate. Sometimes generations. It's sort of like the Sicilians ... and much of the Sicilian culture comes from Muslim influence.

Incidently, for anyone who needs a real guide:

http://www.muskurahat.com/islam/teachjihad.asp

:D

Have fun!

All the more reason to make sure the terrorists aren't around long enough TO retaliate. As with Imperial Japan, the culture must be broken.

:rolleyes:
Way to flamebait.

Swimmingpool is actually on the centre-right, not the left.

Swimmingpool:
Economic Left/Right: 0.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.00

I'd say that's a lot more left than centre OR right. ;)

Newsweek apologizes for Quran story
Says report that sparked deadly protests
contained errors

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7864705/

NEW YORK - Newsweek magazine has apologized for errors in a story alleging that interrogators at the U.S. detention center in Guantanamo Bay desecrated the Quran, saying it would re-examine the accusations, which sparked outrage and deadly protests in Afghanistan.

*sigh* haven't you learnt a thing?? They are protesting because they hate freedom!! duh!

Hehe, didn't read the whole thread. Got to this post and went "Duh well of course" haha good on you. :)

Hmm:

• 1983 April 18 U.S. Embassy Bombing in Beirut, Lebanon kills 63
• 1983 September 23 ...
*snip*
I dont wanna hickjack...so I made a new thread for this

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=8885281#post8885281

Note that most forumists do not use the F-word as it is defined.

~Czardas, Supreme Ruler of the Universe

Yes, but it's still all about sex.

I guess the question is: who fucked first?...USA or the Islamists.

(Disclaimer: im talking about the fighting Islamist AKA terrorists AKA freedom figthers)

Neither. It was the Europeans. Every political problem in the world today is a direct or indirect result of European colonalism and the idiocy that occured when colonalism fell out of favor.

I dont wanna hickjack...so I made a new thread for this

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=8885281#post8885281

:cool:

Rosters of the dead
Who are the suicide bombers of Iraq? By the militants' account, they are an internationalist brigade of Arabs, with the largest share in the online lists from Saudi Arabia and a significant minority from other countries on Iraq's borders, such as Syria and Kuwait. The roster of the dead on just one extremist Web site reviewed by The Washington Post runs to nearly 250 names, ranging from a 13-year-old Syrian boy said to have died fighting the Americans in Fallujah to the reigning kung fu champion of Jordan, who sneaked off to wage war by telling his family he was going to a tournament.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7856618/

...and the US has always been Saudi Arabia's friend, esp. when Iraq invaded Kuwait.

Ergo: It's not the US that started this tango. QED.

What a shame. A whole thread full of good intentions wasted on a bogus story.
And all those morons using it as an excuse to riot and fire their guns up into the air and burn things. It seems as if they lay in wait for an excuse. and all their vauable religious leaders, whipping them into a frenzy.

How big a moron do you feel like now that the koran flushing story has been exposed as a lie?

Posting a tantrum thread using a bogus news story. Next request?
Quite a moron. BTW, posting a tantrum thread (it wasn't) would not make me a leftist, it would make me a troll. And there are many more right-wing trolls around here than leftwing trolls.

I noticed you said something about how Irish revolutionaries were real men unlike us limp-wristed leftists. Well guess what ideology most of these revolutionaries subscribed to (other than nationalism)? That's right, socialism!

:rolleyes:
Way to flamebait.

Swimmingpool is actually on the centre-right, not the left.
w3rd

Swimmingpool:
Economic Left/Right: 0.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.00

I'd say that's a lot more left than centre OR right. ;)
Do you understand numbers? On the political compass economic scale (that's the one marked left/right), those with a positive score are on the right and those with a negative score are on the left.

If we're to take political compass scores, I'm about as right-wing as you are (just 0.24 points away!).

Now, let's get back on topic.

Neither. It was the Europeans. Every political problem in the world today is a direct or indirect result of European colonalism and the idiocy that occured when colonalism fell out of favor.
Correct, that is a large part of it, although I wouldn't sweep "every problem" towards European powers.

Americans and Israelis have done just as much to the Arab world as they have done to us. Ariel Sharon's past history of genocide and human rights abuses are more than enough to justify anything Arabs have done in retribution.
They don't justify them. Killing thousands of people at a time is not justified. But it is understandable.

Quite a moron. BTW, posting a tantrum thread (it wasn't) would not make me a leftist, it would make me a troll. And there are many more right-wing trolls around here than leftwing trolls.

I noticed you said something about how Irish revolutionaries were real men unlike us limp-wristed leftists. Well guess what ideology most of these revolutionaries subscribed to (other than nationalism)? That's right, socialism!


w3rd


I certainly would NOT call you a moron. You obtained info, in good faith, from what you could expect to be a credible source and acted on it. That doesnt make you a moron. Or a liar.
Some people may get the point I'm making. I believed this story too. Even though I didnt want to.

All I see is revnge against one another. Americans against the Middle East and the Middle East against America. As long as this cycle continues, people will still have a viruhent hatred for the US.


And the alternative is?


And here we see a great example of the short-sightedness that runs our country/military. Thank you for this illustration. Despite many alternatives available and presented in MANY MANY threads on NS/ interviews with great minds / newspaper editorials and what have you - knee-jerk reactionaries without a lick of common sense when it comes to human nature spout that their way is the only way as they caress their precious blinders.

No need to explain somethign to someone who doesnt have the ability to listen to reason.

1) There are no "Europeans". Historically it was British, French, Germans, whatever. The "Europeans" aren't responsible. That's like saying the "Americans" are responsible for the US Civil War. Also there may be an EU, but the countries are still sort of independant.

2) I don't get the big deal, it's just a friggin' book, not much holier than anything else printed on paper. Damn fanatics. Amazingly how they all jumped on the barricades at once, without any real confirmation of it (it was reported in only ONE magazine). Sometimes I think the best solution would be getting a few Tzars from the Russians and "test" them on those fanatics.

3) I think for a hoax it was pretty amusing. So much for decent journalism.

4) Don't ever compare Pearl Harbor with 9/11, two completely different situations that have nothing to do with each other. There might be similarities, but those are insignificant. Pearl Harbor was a military (thus legit) target hit by a military force.

And here we see a great example of the short-sightedness that runs our country/military. Thank you for this illustration. Despite many alternatives available and presented in MANY MANY threads on NS/ interviews with great minds / newspaper editorials and what have you - knee-jerk reactionaries without a lick of common sense when it comes to human nature spout that their way is the only way as they caress their precious blinders.

No need to explain somethign to someone who doesnt have the ability to listen to reason.

Thank you for your very conceited reply. :rolleyes:

If you have something constructive to add, feel free, I'm happy to read it. But so far, I've yet to see anyone (in real life OR in the forum) come up with a solid strategy of how to deal with terrorism other than fighting it with bullets.

Originally Posted by Markreich
Swimmingpool:
Economic Left/Right: 0.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.00

I'd say that's a lot more left than centre OR right.

Do you understand numbers? On the political compass economic scale (that's the one marked left/right), those with a positive score are on the right and those with a negative score are on the left.

If we're to take political compass scores, I'm about as right-wing as you are (just 0.24 points away!).

In terms of ECONOMIC left/right you and I are just about the same.
In terms of liberties, I'm a centrist. You're waaaaaaaaaaaaaay left of me. :D