NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.nuvo.net/archive/2005/05/04/the_conscience_clause.html

Abortion: the facts

• The number of abortion providers nationwide declined by 11 percent between 1996 and 2000, leaving 87 percent of all U.S. counties lacking an abortion provider. These counties were home to 34 percent of all American women between 15 and 44 years of age.

• There are no abortion providers in 86 counties, or 93 percent of the state, leaving 61 percent of all women in Indiana living in a county with no abortion provider. Currently, there are nine abortion clinics in Indiana.

• According to a Gallup Poll conducted in 2003, 81 percent of Americans believe abortion should be legal under some or all circumstances, 18 percent believe abortion should be illegal under all circumstances and the remaining 1 percent have no opinion.

• A 2003 public opinion poll reveals only a small change in Americans’ attitudes in abortion since 1975. Thirty years ago, 75 percent of Americans believed abortion should be legal under some or all circumstances, 22 percent believed abortion should be illegal under all circumstances and the remaining 3 percent had no opinion.

• Though Planned Parenthood is commonly referred to as an “abortion clinic,” the overwhelming majority of Indiana’s 40 Planned Parenthood clinics do not perform abortions. In fact, of the nearly half a million patients who visited the Indiana clinics between January 2003 and June 2004, less than 1 percent had an abortion.

• Nearly 40 percent of Planned Parenthood patients receive pap smears and routine gynecological exams. Thus far, the term “pap smear clinic” has yet to catch on.

the anti-abortion terrorist movement has led to many doctors giving up the abortion portion of their practice. their lives and the lives of their employees and families are more important to them than providing abortion services.

the anti-abortion terrorist movement has led to many doctors giving up the abortion portion of their practice. their lives and the lives of their employees and families are more important to them than providing abortion services.
:(
I dont even know what to say.

Mind you we stuck with it in the 60's here and made it legal, right?

sad isnt it? its becoming defacto illegal by becoming so hard to get that it might as well be illegal. the anti-abortion terrorists have driven thousands of doctors out of the field.

http://www.nuvo.net/archive/2005/05/04/the_conscience_clause.html

This is actually about India, but whatever.


Indiana possibly?

The hospitals described in that link sound insane. They wouldnt even let a woman have her tubes tied due to being catholic. What could they possibly have against that?

the hopeful part is that abortifacent drugs like ru487 and methotrexate (plus something) which can be given in the privacy of any gynocologists office can open the option up to more women in need.

Indiana possibly?
i musta read something wrong :S

The hospitals described in that link sound insane. They wouldnt even let a woman have her tubes tied due to being catholic. What could they possibly have against that?
At the age that women are considering tube-tying (generally) theyre a bit too old to give birth any way, too dangerouse for thier body and their eggs could be damaged = mutant baby.

The problem here is, once again, religion. It is being forced on people who are not members of that religion, who disagree with its doctrine. Yet the state does nothing to prevnet this, despite religious freedom being guarenteed by the constitution, in the US. Religion and politics don;t mix. If individual practitioners have a moral objection to something, then they shouldn't be forced into it. But why should that one belief be forced on to EVERYONE who needs medical help?

EDIT: This post appears to have a severe anti-religious feel. Sorry if I offend anyone, but Im judging by the one article alone, and thats all my post is about. People should be free to subscribe to whatever religion, but this should include having none.

Someone needs to invent a machine which can perform an abortion. And there should be contraceptive vending machines in all clinics. Then there'd be no question of 'morality' - it's a government provided service that doesn't force anyone to do anything. Of course, then the vending machine stockist would probably complain :rolleyes:

Indiana possibly? :confused:

:confused:
The article is not talking about India, but it may be talking about Indiana.

The article is not talking about India, but it may be talking about Indiana.
yeah i was reading a few things i must have combined one of them with this one and said that :S

I wager this ties in with the "Holy Work" Mother Theresa was doing down there.

There are only 2 abortion providers listed in Oklahoma, and both are more than 70 miles away. Plus you have a lot of restrictve laws, like the mandatory waiting period.It's very hard on poor women, who have to save up to afford one. Then they have the travel expenses, only to be told they have to wait 48 hours. Then they either have to come up with accomodations or make another trip.

I wager this ties in with the "Holy Work" Mother Theresa was doing down there.
:eek:
woa you did not just say that

:p props! you got guts!

There are only 2 abortion providers listed in Oklahoma, and both are more than 70 miles away. Plus you have a lot of restrictve laws, like the mandatory waiting period.It's very hard on poor women, who have to save up to afford one. Then they have the travel expenses, only to be told they have to wait 48 hours. Then they either have to come up with accomodations or make another trip.
manditory waiting?!
WTF?!

:rolleyes: land of the free

There are only 2 abortion providers listed in Oklahoma, and both are more than 70 miles away. Plus you have a lot of restrictve laws, like the mandatory waiting period.It's very hard on poor women, who have to save up to afford one. Then they have the travel expenses, only to be told they have to wait 48 hours. Then they either have to come up with accomodations or make another trip.
as if she has thought about anything else since she found out she was pregnant.

:eek:
woa you did not just say that

:p props! you got guts!

I -am- the Flame Dancer.

There are only 2 abortion providers listed in Oklahoma, and both are more than 70 miles away. Plus you have a lot of restrictve laws, like the mandatory waiting period.It's very hard on poor women, who have to save up to afford one. Then they have the travel expenses, only to be told they have to wait 48 hours. Then they either have to come up with accomodations or make another trip.
Thank god forCoat hangers! :rolleyes:

Thank god forCoat hangers! :rolleyes:

:) quite right. And failing that a cricket bat to the stomach.

manditory waiting?!
WTF?!

:rolleyes: land of the free
Land of hypocracy, home of the enslaved.

Land of hypocracy, home of the enslaved.

>.>

:eek:
woa you did not just say that

:p props! you got guts!

What work did Mother Teresa do in Indiana, again?

There are only 2 abortion providers listed in Oklahoma, and both are more than 70 miles away. Plus you have a lot of restrictve laws, like the mandatory waiting period.It's very hard on poor women, who have to save up to afford one. Then they have the travel expenses, only to be told they have to wait 48 hours. Then they either have to come up with accomodations or make another trip.
70 miles isn't really a long distance - probably an hour and a half trip if you obey speed limits, which doesn't seem like a big deal for something you're only going to do once or twice in your life. I have to assume that you can call the clinics beforehand so that you don't have to drive there just to make an apointment. Unless the clinics are so overbooked that you can't be sure of getting an abortion while it's still reasonable and easy to do so, this doesn't seem like a problem to me.

As long as it's legal (and probably even if it becomes illegal), there will always be clinics you can go for an abortion, and I don't see why we need to have them as conveniently located as the local 7-11.

I suppose it is a little funny to have clinics that could easily do abortions refuse to do so, but it hardly seems like a big deal to me.

70 miles isn't really a long distance - probably an hour and a half trip if you obey speed limits, which doesn't seem like a big deal for something you're only going to do once or twice in your life. I have to assume that you can call the clinics beforehand so that you don't have to drive there just to make an apointment. Unless the clinics are so overbooked that you can't be sure of getting an abortion while it's still reasonable and easy to do so, this doesn't seem like a problem to me.

As long as it's legal (and probably even if it becomes illegal), there will always be clinics you can go for an abortion, and I don't see why we need to have them as conveniently located as the local 7-11.

I suppose it is a little funny to have clinics that could easily do abortions refuse to do so, but it hardly seems like a big deal to me.

You didn't pay attention to all the facts in Bitchkitten's post, did you?

Regardless, you assume every woman has a car.

And 1 1/2 drive would be a 3-hour round trip. That you have to do twice because of the waiting period.

For a rather simple operation.

Would you feel a bit put out if you had to travel 1 1/2 hours (one-way) for medical treatment? And then had to come back after 48 hours to actually get the treatment?

Would you feel the same if the treatment was for delivery of a baby rather than abortion?

What work did Mother Teresa do in Indiana, again?

I think that was a reference to the riots during her tour as an opening act for KISS.

Either that or the illegal cock-fighting rings.

WAY. TO. NOT. PAY. ATTENTION.
This is the second time you've answered one of my posts offensively without actually answering anything I say... it's not very endearing.

The point I was making is that there's no real danger of abortion becoming unavailable - people feel far too strongly about it for that to happen. There will always be doctors who feel abortion is a woman's right and will be willing to do it. If some people choose not to administer abortions on moral grounds, it doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

I haven't seen anyone post anything about people being completely unable to get an abortion.

looking at those figures: 81% think its ok under some conditions and 18% think its never ok, I think its really sad that an issue such as this has been hijacked and politicised by a vocal minority, its disgusting really.

This is the second time you've answered one of my posts offensively without actually answering anything I say... it's not very endearing.

The point I was making is that there's no real danger of abortion becoming unavailable - people feel far too strongly about it for that to happen. There will always be doctors who feel abortion is a woman's right and will be willing to do it. If some people choose not to administer abortions on moral grounds, it doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

I haven't seen anyone post anything about people being completely unable to get an abortion.

Oh. Quorm doesn't love me. I'm so hurt.

(Apparently this is the second time you've said something that deserved an abrasive response. Tough cheese.)

Try checking my post again. I edited pretty immediately.

I don't have a problem per se with people choosing not to administer abortions for personal reasons. People being harassased and bullied out of performing them is another kettle of fish.

Abortion is basically unavailabe in some states and in large regions of the country. So, yes, some women are unable to get an abortion. It happens.

Make it difficult enough and some won't be able to overcome the barriers. That is a deliberate anti-choice strategy, actually.

You didn't pay attention to all the facts in Bitchkitten's post, did you?

Regardless, you assume every woman has a car.

And 1 1/2 drive would be a 3-hour round trip. That you have to do twice because of the waiting period.

For a rather simple operation.

Would you feel a bit put out if you had to travel 1 1/2 hours (one-way) for medical treatment? And then had to come back after 48 hours to actually get the treatment?

Would you feel the same if the treatment was for delivery of a baby rather than abortion?
Well, I'll admit, and it's a sad thing to admit, but as a Canadian I sort of think of waiting periods as pretty normal for operations. There are downsides to Universal Medical Coverage. I guess it just seems to me that 6 hours isn't that big a deal for a medical operation - Any surgery is a big deal in my mind, and if it's only going to happen at most a couple times in your life, the couple days it costs you isn't that huge.

I don't know where people get the idea that everything has to be convenient and easy - sometimes things aren't. We try to make things as convenient as we can, but personally i think that freedom to act in the way you think is moral is worth a little inconvenience.

Of course I think abortion should be easily legally available, but I don't think it's right to force someone else to do something they think is wrong for my convenience. No intelligent person claims unerring knowledge of what is good and right.

Even if you don't have a car, most people have friends with cars, or there are always busses and trains. Ultimately it just amounts to inconvenience.

As for the baby delivery, that's not at all comparable, and you know it. An abortion has a rather wide window of time in which you can safely do it, whereas when you're having a baby, when the baby's ready to come out, it does, and you don't have much choice in the matter.

If you could choose when you have a baby, then I wouldn't think it was a big deal if you had to drive a few hours to do it.

But then I don't assume that the world must be designed to maximize my convenience.

I don't have a problem per se with people choosing not to administer abortions for personal reasons. People being harassased and bullied out of performing them is another kettle of fish.

I agree there. But I think that any sensible company should fire an employee who harrasses customers. It's one thing to act in line with your morals, and it's another to force them on someone else while in an official role representing a non religious organization.

Frankly, I think that someone who would harrrass someone like that can't be a very good Christian, but I seem to have a different view of Christianity than a lot of Christians do :(

Abortion should be legal. Its a persons choice. I HATE people who inflict there religious beliefs on others. They should all be removed from this earth.

Often its not even their fault if they get pregnent. All u jerks out there that think it should be illegal, go to hell. It probebly doesn't even effect you. Think of someone other than yourself.

looking at those figures: 81% think its ok under some conditions and 18% think its never ok

Those statistics are a blatant distortion. By using the "under some conditions" category, the pro-abortion side is lumping the people who believe that abortion should only be legal in "hard cases" (e.g., life of the mother, or pregnancies resulting from rape) in with the minority who believe that abortion should be legal for any reason. Note that abortion was legalized by judicial fiat, and not by popular vote.

sad isnt it? its becoming defacto illegal by becoming so hard to get that it might as well be illegal. the anti-abortion terrorists have driven thousands of doctors out of the field.
It's not like that at all. It is possible to travel to another county. I agree about the anti-abortion terrorists driving thousands of doctors out of the field, but I fail to see how this is in any way like abortion being illegal.

I wager this ties in with the "Holy Work" Mother Theresa was doing down there.
Mother Teresa was crazy. She and her nurses performed "medical procedures" using the most unclean, infected equipment, all in the mad belief that she was fighting against abortion and contraception.

http://www.salon.com/sept97/news/news3970905.html

http://www.lipmagazine.org/articles/featpostel_56.htm

http://slate.msn.com/id/2090083/

Those statistics are a blatant distortion. By using the "under some conditions" category, the pro-abortion side is lumping the people who believe that abortion should only be legal in "hard cases" (e.g., life of the mother, or pregnancies resulting from rape) in with the minority who believe that abortion should be legal for any reason.

Exactly. Further, I'd guess that about 80% of counties in the U.S. are practically uninhabited, especially commercially, with most of the population in only several dozen counties. It also helps that California, the most populous state, has only a few huge counties, the smallest of all being Orange, I'm pretty certain. My county, San Bernadino, is the largest in the U.S., larger than the entire state of Connecticut.. So although the OP was writing about Indiana, saying that some women have to drive to another county is, in most places, meaniningless, unless you live in the middle of nowhere.

When I lived in Illinois, I could drive through 4 counties in about 20 minutes, by comparison, and I mean completely through.

Well, I'll admit, and it's a sad thing to admit, but as a Canadian I sort of think of waiting periods as pretty normal for operations. There are downsides to Universal Medical Coverage. I guess it just seems to me that 6 hours isn't that big a deal for a medical operation - Any surgery is a big deal in my mind, and if it's only going to happen at most a couple times in your life, the couple days it costs you isn't that huge.

I don't know where people get the idea that everything has to be convenient and easy - sometimes things aren't. We try to make things as convenient as we can, but personally i think that freedom to act in the way you think is moral is worth a little inconvenience.

Of course I think abortion should be easily legally available, but I don't think it's right to force someone else to do something they think is wrong for my convenience. No intelligent person claims unerring knowledge of what is good and right.

Even if you don't have a car, most people have friends with cars, or there are always busses and trains. Ultimately it just amounts to inconvenience.

As for the baby delivery, that's not at all comparable, and you know it. An abortion has a rather wide window of time in which you can safely do it, whereas when you're having a baby, when the baby's ready to come out, it does, and you don't have much choice in the matter.

If you could choose when you have a baby, then I wouldn't think it was a big deal if you had to drive a few hours to do it.

But then I don't assume that the world must be designed to maximize my convenience.
Umm, obviously you missed the entire point that thousands of doctors have quit doing abortions for fear of their lives and the lives of their families and co-workers is the root of the problem, not that people should be forced to do abortions to make it more convenient. It's being made less convenient because of violent fanatical pro-lifers. Way to pay attention to what's going on before making a post. And you wonder why you get berated...

Mother Teresa was crazy. She and her nurses performed "medical procedures" using the most unclean, infected equipment, all in the mad belief that she was

Woa I did not know these things. I mean I never thought she should be sainted and peopel hacked at me for it

Let me offer examples of two small but related "actions." Two years ago, the population of the Republic of Ireland went to the polls in a referendum. The single issue was the removal of the constitutional ban on divorce. Ireland is the only country in Europe with such a prohibition, and it is also engaged in serious talks with the Protestant minority who fear clerical control of their lives in a future "power-sharing" agreement. For this reason, most Irish political parties called for a "yes" vote. In the concluding stages of the campaign, which was very closely fought, Mother Teresa intervened to urge that the faithful vote "no."

A few months later, she gave an interview to the American magazine, Ladies Home Journal, which reached millions of housewives. She was asked about her friendship with Princess Diana, a friendship which has been evolving over the past several years, and also about Diana's then impending divorce. Of the divorce Mother Teresa said that "It is a good thing that it is over. Nobody was happy anyhow."

It's not like that at all. It is possible to travel to another county. I agree about the anti-abortion terrorists driving thousands of doctors out of the field, but I fail to see how this is in any way like abortion being illegal.

really? you dont even see it a little bit?

if you cant get one because its illegal or if you cant get one because its too hard to get, its pretty much the same isnt it? if the doctor you normally see and trust is terrorized out of the abortion portion of his practice and you have to travel 1500 miles to canada to get it done, it may as well be illegal. (a bit of hyperbole but it is a burden on women in crisis to have to search around for a provider of a perfectly legal procedure.)

really? you dont even see it a little bit?

if you cant get one because its illegal or if you cant get one because its too hard to get, its pretty much the same isnt it? if the doctor you normally see and trust is terrorized out of the abortion portion of his practice and you have to travel 1500 miles to canada to get it done, it may as well be illegal. (a bit of hyperbole but it is a burden on women in crisis to have to search around for a provider of a perfectly legal procedure.)
Yes I see how it's like being illegal if you have to travel 1500 miles for it, but we're only talking a few counties here. It's not as if you're not allowed to go to another county. I fail to see what the big fuss is about.

I also fail to see why you think I am dismissing or excusing anti-abortion terrorism.

Yes I see how it's like being illegal if you have to travel 1500 miles for it, but we're only talking a few counties here. It's not as if you're not allowed to go to another county. I fail to see what the big fuss is about.

I also fail to see why you think I am dismissing or excusing anti-abortion terrorism.
oh im sorry i gave you that impression, i didnt think that you were excusing it at all.

i misread county for country... oops

i think you are underestimating what its like to be young, poor and in crisis.

suppose you are living in north dakota, one abortion provider for the whole state, and you finally admit to yourself that you are pregnant. unhappily so. you have to take time off of work, find a ride to take you a couple hundred miles, wait a couple days, pay for a motel and meals (or sleep in the car) pay a few hundred dollars for the procedure, and get back home.


(actually i dont know that there is a waiting period in north dakota)

compare that to having to scrape up the money somehow and then go down to the clinic after work to get it done.

for a solidly middle class person its no big deal. for a woman on the edge who can barely meet her bills, its a burden big enough that it may as well be illegal.

oh im sorry i gave you that impression, i didnt think that you were excusing it at all.

i misread county for country... oops

i think you are underestimating what its like to be young, poor and in crisis.

suppose you are living in north dakota, one abortion provider for the whole state, and you finally admit to yourself that you are pregnant. unhappily so. you have to take time off of work, find a ride to take you a couple hundred miles, wait a couple days, pay for a motel and meals (or sleep in the car) pay a few hundred dollars for the procedure, and get back home.


(actually i dont know that there is a waiting period in north dakota)

compare that to having to scrape up the money somehow and then go down to the clinic after work to get it done.

for a solidly middle class person its no big deal. for a woman on the edge who can barely meet her bills, its a burden big enough that it may as well be illegal.

I'm not as anti-abortion as you may think, but if I could throw some rhetoric on this? ::

Did she understand these procedures -before- doing the deed? Playing devil's advocate for just a moment, I was just wondering why we're more concerned about this than the fact that she could have said "no" because of what she would want to do were the pregnency unplanned (assuming it was consentual). I don't know the whole details of this case, but I just wanted to throw this out here.

I'm not as anti-abortion as you may think, but if I could throw some rhetoric on this? ::

Did she understand these procedures -before- doing the deed? Playing devil's advocate for just a moment, I was just wondering why we're more concerned about this than the fact that she could have said "no" because of what she would want to do were the pregnency unplanned (assuming it was consentual). I don't know the whole details of this case, but I just wanted to throw this out here.
EXACTLY. I don't know how many of you have actually BEEN to Planned Parenthood, or have seen the inside of an abortion issue, but one of my close friends had to get one last year -- had to, because neither she nor the baby would've survived because of her medical condition at the time, despite it being a planned baby -- and the purpose of the usually-enforced waiting period is to make sure she understands ALL VIABLE OPTIONS before going through this procedure. In a lot of places around town (eat that, my area has about thirty available abortion clinics....'cept I don't need 'em), they even provide a counselor to help you get through it, but NOT to sway you one way or the other.
It's not ALWAYS just a matter of "Thanks for coming, we can't do ya today", it's an effort to lessen any emotional turmoil that a drop-of-the-hat decision might make. They're also supposed to be supplied with information regarding adoption as well, but I also understand a lot of inner-city clinics can no longer afford the pamphlets and stuff.

Anyway....I guess I just got sick of people bitching about the waiting period, when they didn't make it clear whether or not they knew WHY it was enforced....

sad isnt it? its becoming defacto illegal by becoming so hard to get that it might as well be illegal. the anti-abortion terrorists have driven thousands of doctors out of the field.

Bush should declare war on them.