NationStates Jolt Archive

Hi,

Most people will know those images like I did.
In the first press of the governement "controled" press or the other censured pres in the US, we saw a soldier (a bit redneck but that is not the issue) comming out of a mosk and answering his superior after the shooting in the mosk.

a Superior said something like: "5?" after the "soldier" gave the sign "5" when he came out the mosk
b The soldier then replied with his head a "yes"
a Superior "Where they armed?"
b Then just made a upwards move with his shoulders (style "I dunno")

We all know and saw those images (at least in the free world, especially in Europe) and the repeats on the news.

I saw a report on the broadcast (BBC) of the US best "allie" last week and now it is all over the free worlds news. :eek: Saw it my own country to that is btw ruled by conservatives. (before some extremists accuse me off comming from a neo commie East- EU state, I live in the "old west", according Adolf Rumsfeld or Bolton.(not according serious politicians like Marshall or Powell).

This cameramen (Kevin Sikes)that filmed the execution (we all know this image) of what where first blessed oposition people seemed to have some more material that is released in the free (non US censured ) press that has been seen by the last freedom of informartion continent (sorry to say so, you can see every news that is forbidden/hided, in the US in the free continent).

We saw the rest of his immages and the executions of those 5/6 wounded people that lay on the floor. We saw a "soldier" shooting them one by one. People that were unarmed and heavaly wounded.
Those people were , acording US troops,people that where catched in a shooting and belonged to the terrible term "collateral dammage". They were cought in a shooting in wich they did not take action, because just praying in the mosque.

Ok, one can (like me) say: jezus, that is bad luck but why, in the name of God has some Nazi feels the need to execute people 48h. later after they wher shot by accident by other troops. Those civillians where even helped and given some medical car by the first troops that shot them because of stupidity.

48h later some Republican bibble belt Nazi (?) (or just a common criminal,because this never was ordered by his professional superior)
walks in and just kills them in the way we know that it was the common act
on the Russian or East front between 1941-1945 (USSR versus Germany) or the West front (Allies versus Germany) when both parties, yes, even the Amis like the mass killing of 160 Germans by US "troops" near Malmédy when they discovered the boddies of the 61 US deads near Baugnez (under Malmédy district)that where shot because they ran away after beiing POW in the Battle of the Bulge, in Belgium we know what happened there to with those old German guys, it is even in the national library and suscribed by most the most serious US, UK and Belgian historians, unknowed to the "general" (yeah the idiots :mad: ) public.

All those facts have one thing in common, from the mass killings in wich the German SS (not the common army or Wehrmacht, altough them to commited crimes, but less then the SS) participated over the crimes off the Red Army and the "lesser" ones and more local ones of our US, British or French guys until Indochine, Vietnam, Russia in Checnya, Israel in Palestine: the non comprehensal about solving a conflict. We have not learned anything in 60years.

But what is shaming me the most is the fact that we know a lot about warcrimes in the past and see each day people excuse for their warcrimes in the last 60 years in all those wars from WWII (specially those have some decency) untill now is the fact that neither the US excuses for each one of his multipple crimes, neither Russia.

This case, wich is not a unique in the US history of a mass execution should be condemned like any other.

BTW, for those die hard (and haired) redneck neocons that are thinking to find a occasion here to rip something out of the context (best specialists in the world in that matter, that is THE matchpoint with the Stalinists, they should have great sex together)for gloryfying their own Bible and or other rewriting of history: I do condemn all attacks towards the civilian force and those pour lousy bastards like the guards in Iraq or other reservists, or the Tex Mex guys that are just there as cannonfudder to become a US ID.. But I don't condamn every attack towards US troops in Iraq from real resistants neither.
As a European (yeah I know, some extremists in the US hates us because of our freedoms that you're don't have anymore like we have, FREEDOM , for wich BTW I still thank the UK, Russia, Polland, the US and France)

I must repeat the words of my still living 85 years old grandfather that fought against "the Nazi's" (US term) or Germany (EU term, because 60% did not vote for Hitler, % that some idiots like to forget) during 18 days until our
capitulation: "When you are ocupied and feel ocupied you have 3 choices: or you go by the wind, wich is easy, or you fight against with every little thing you can do for your own oppressed people like e did when we were under German occupation and had to live their rules, or you choose the easy way and colaborate and wil be punished by the people or the next "regime".

"Regime", he also said that...

If the US is still a democracy of the West and not some semi state in wich not the people but some Southern petrogroups and bibblefanatics rule against sience like the abolishing of Darwin and making it "non science" and, instead taking fanatical religious sects as "sience"at School, it must act and
learn in understanding with the developed part of the US and the EU.


I kow a lot of US citizens abroad here, mostly clients, some became verry good friends, when they see the free media here and send those messages to the US, most (reps and dems abroad) are really ashamed that they see and find a more free press about "the war" here then "censured" ones that their famillies in the US has access to.

One of my best US friends and a die hard (but traditional, a Powell guy)
Republican that is the 1st secratary of the US ambassy had a good talk with me last week, a talk from wich I wrote this (and send him a copy).

No won't tell ya my country, neither his name. Don't try to research my nation
on NS neither, you only find a fake.

BTW, like my friend advised me, I do exuse for my typos and bad English, but lik ehe also said "when someone tries to make advantage, use another language, they surely won't follow": OK for me:Italian, Dutch, German, French, Rumanian and Spanish will be my answer to wards unpolite rednecks other Nazis that think to attack a person that is not writing in his own language. Mostly a strategy used intolerant and monolinguist people, I pay back on high US advise and for free.


SO, WATCH THE INTERVIEW VIA INTERNET AND THE IMAGES OF KEVIN SITES, IT IS YOUR WAR ALLIE THE BBC THAT IS SPREADING IT IN THE FREE WORLD, by the way, join the freedom of information again, fight back. Just like during 'Nam, we have the sources and the things you don't know about...

Dude, you're rambling and incomprehensible. I have absolutely no idea what the hell it is you're trying to say.

Dude, you're rambling and incomprehensible. I have absolutely no idea what the hell it is you're trying to say.

We demand decoder rings!

We demand decoder rings!

ROFL....my doubly insane coinage exactly!

We demand decoder rings!

Yea, what he said.

"Allow me to explain...no, there is too much, lemme sum up."

Do you guys remember that incident where the marine shot a number of people in a mosuqe when they were lying on the ground? That marine was recently cleared of charges on the grounds that he was afraid that the wounded were boobytrapped.

Our esteemed Via Ferrata, (whom I will assume is a male for the sake of an argument) writes to us despite of his only partial command of English that;

According to his sources, those who were shot were civilians, not insurgents. Morover, that they were shot by accident by the first group of troops, and that fourty-eight hours later a soldier killed them in a summary excecution that strongly reminded the writer of a Nazi warcrime.

In fact the writer suggests that this incident resembles the warcimes that occured in all of the past wars in the 20th centuries.

He does this by noting the partial censorship that the video footage recieved in the US media, the outburst of support for the marine in question from the US administration and its supporters, and the fact that much of the rest of the world watched and learned about the story from uncensored news sites.

Thus he believes that the majority of the US has been blind to the idea that many of those nations who saw the raw footage believe that the US just excused a warcriminal for his actions, and the writer is deeply ashamed and disparing over the situation.

He repeatedly states that he believes the US military and the nation as a whole is divided between those who are good and Just (for which he cites Colin Powell and Marshall), and those who are opportunistic, evil and likely to commit war crimes, (attributes he ascribes to Donald Rumsfeld, John Bolton and those who support the banning of science in favor of religion).

He also states that the full video is available through the BBC and other sources worldwide, and that he belives that the raw footage will help educate and keep alive the memory of those wrongly killed in that incident.

That's the gist of it. There's a lot in there to sort through, some points I missed that are probably worth mentioning and a whole lot of vitriolic diatribe.

Yeah, I've seen his entire video, plus the interviews with him. Funny, the most incriminating part was absent from the tape, yes? The part where a marine supposedly tells his CO that he executed five wounded? Maybe it was censored from the BBC video and interview I downloaded online, but I sure didn't see tape on that.

I saw the tape unedited.

Other than the loud gunblast there wasn't much that was offensive. You really couldn't see anything graphic.

Here'e link (view with IE):

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4646406

I saw the tape unedited.

Other than the loud gunblast there wasn't much that was offensive. You really couldn't see anything graphic.

Here'e link (view with IE):

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4646406

Yeah, but did a marine "confess" to killing unarmed wounded? I sure as hell never saw that, and I saw the whole tape, too.

Well put Via, great to see that some people still can explain us the facts that are censured ore hidden here. Many thanks :cool:

Dude, you're rambling and incomprehensible. I have absolutely no idea what the hell it is you're trying to say.

Don't be such a fool, you can read and can see (altough censured in your case the press. I know, it is difficult for losers like you to buy a free non biased paper like weused to have, since we have find the non censured press from the English, French, German and even the biased US..press in our local shop, poor you US Nazi- losers, :D

Don't be such a fool, you can read and can see (altough censured in your case the press. I know, it is difficult for losers like you to buy a free non biased paper like weused to have, since we have find the non censured press from the English, French, German and even the biased US..press in our local shop, poor you US Nazi- losers, :D

So, because you put a big smily on the end of the post we should take this entire post as a joke?
An unbiased press? It is not possible because humans will carry the baggage of their beliefs with them and this baggage will slip out in small ways, the choice of one word over another, the choice of one source or quote over another.

I saw the tape unedited.

Other than the loud gunblast there wasn't much that was offensive. You really couldn't see anything graphic.

Here'e link (view with IE):

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4646406

Jezus, I feel pitty with those images, we, in the free and non US cencured world had the 7 minutes with the killings (censcured in the US) completely. just looking like Vietnam when US people in Europe saw the reallity and could bring the strory to the US ((but then, the regime in the US was not as Staline controled like now, sow some reached the (more free then)press now like does actually in the free world).

Stange how every US buisiness men feel more free here when we talk about the freedom of speech and free press regarding the US. Even my friends off the US embassy (Republicands BTW) admit that and want and desire our freedoms.

So, because you put a big smily on the end of the post we should take this entire post as a joke?
An unbiased press? It is not possible because humans will carry the baggage of their beliefs with them and this baggage will slip out in small ways, the choice of one word over another, the choice of one source or quote over another.
Keep on blablabla, big smile :) :D :D :D :D
Talk again after growing up and seeing something of the world like I did OK? :D :D :D :D :

I can't understand you very well. It seems like you're trying to say the US censored a video? That it was supposed to be 7 minutes or something? Do you have a link to somewhere that can support this claim?

Also, you seem to claim that the US is being restrictive with freedom of speech?
How so?

Also, you seem to claim that the US is being restrictive with freedom of speech?
How so?

Perhaps by torturing until dead follows? Do you live in a cave and really have no acces to the media? Even some of your "liberal :rolleyes:" media tells about it. Yeah, isolated cases, yeah freedom of speech, my ass :D

Keep on blablabla, big smile :) :D :D :D :D
Talk again after growing up and seeing something of the world like I did OK? :D :D :D :D :


Hmmm...this pretty much sums it up. You've made your point and we are all rightfully impressed and convinced.

just looking like Vietnam when US people in Europe saw the reallity and could bring the strory to the US ((but then, the regime in the US was not as Staline controled like now, sow some reached the (more free then)press now like does actually in the free world)
Clearly you have no understanding of the effect Vietnam had on the American psyche. Dan Rather was not European, when he broadcast the images of Americans spilling and sheding blood right into everyone's livingroom at dinner time, it had an impact. When Walter Cronkite, probably the last man everyone in America trusted, said the war was unwinnable, that changed the nation. The europeans were not a meaningful part of the equation, beyond the grasping French colonialism that served to set things in motion.

But more generally from the American perspective.

The reason you don't see the criticizm of the individual soldier in the American press (without the sanction of a court martial, or the absolute impossibility of an explaination for their actions) isn't the government. The news networks are terrified they'll lose viewers. People aren't going to stand for people spitting on US soldiers, or calling them baby killers. The comparitive unfairness of their situation is understood, and by large measure they'll be forgiven, and their mistakes will be attributed not to them, but a greater political failure to which we're all a party. And since europeans tend towards the unsatisfiable looney space cadet end of the spectrum, no criticizm from ANY europeans is going to be meaningful.

In general, in our legal system it's customary to err on the side of the person defending himself anyway. This ain't no British prove you did the best thing circumstance. For a justifiable homicide defense all one has to prove is that a reasonable person might have done the same thing in that exact same situation. This allowes the occasional unecessary tragedy to happen as in the case of that Japanese exchange studen who was shot to death in Texas because he didn't understand what "Freeze" ment when a gun was pointed at him. If the soldier had foreknowledge bodies were ever booby trapped in Iraq, and if those people were in desperate need of medical attention, and would die before the bomb disposal experts could get there, he's pretty much met his burden of proof even if everything else you've said is true. For an American to be convicted of an attrocity, it's a much greater hurdle. The evidence must still be rigorous, after all the person accused has the same rights, but since the stakes are so high, the evidence must be that much more convincing. If convicted, they might not spend that much time in jail, but they will go down as one of history's real villians (Lt. Calley for instance). But that's a problem, because war is messy, and not particularly given to the preservation and collection of detailed evidence, which is both time sensitive and in an extremely chaotic enviroment. (Why Lt. Calley was only convicted of four counts of murder for his actions at Mi Lai.)

Then there is the American idea of sovereignty. The only Americans who are ever going to be tried under foreign laws are those who've commited crimes within foreign boarders and under their jurisdiction. Period. Just get over it. It's not that we think we're better than you. We think that's the way it should be for any country that can be said to be functional. If you don't agree with that, and want to do it your own way, that's fine, have fun. But expecting us to agree, and submit to that, giving up our ideals, is just silly. When the French adopt English as their national language, we'll consider it.

Then there is the American idea of sovereignty. The only Americans who are ever going to be tried under foreign laws are those who've commited crimes within foreign boarders and under their jurisdiction. Period. Just get over it. It's not that we think we're better than you. We think that's the way it should be for any country that can be said to be functional. If you don't agree with that, and want to do it your own way, that's fine, have fun. But expecting us to agree, and submit to that, giving up our ideals, is just silly. When the French adopt English as their national language, we'll consider it.

Well explained!

But you have to understand that from their viewpoint, nations that don't respect Geneva or other international rules signed by the US themselves are seen a bit like a new Nazi Germany. Most americans don't know what war is, most Europeans do since massive wars were fought on their continent last century (as the centuries before), so a critical view towards fascisme (or other isms) is genetical now.


BTW, strange that some Americans have a obssession with France (you to seems me). Is that because they are the last one nuke state that does not lick the heels of the cowboy (like the UK and Russia seem to be a US state and lost selfcontrol) but is critical? Strange for a non French person to watch this paranoid obbsession with the Frenc. it even goes that far that they change the English vocabulary: "french fries": comes from "to french" and has nothing to do with France like some wants us to believe that. It is more linked with Spain (potato's came via them in EU) and Belgium (inventors of it in the early 19th century, around 1840: called "frites" in EU). This episode was very ridiculous for Europeans because they all thought that Americans were so stupid that they focused on "to french" as is was something "French", even the Brits though for a moment that the US was a bananarepublic that changed their beloved English (inventors, original speakers, the English) was abused for propaganda.