NationStates Jolt Archive

So the 1st Amendment prohibits Congress from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof" - yet it has this ban on school prayer, and makes students recite (or at least stand in respect) during the Pledge of Allegiance.

Well, isn't this "Pledge of Alliegance" nothing but worship of the state?

Here's the thing; as a libertarian, I see no problem with allowing students to pray in school if they consent to it, as long as the school doesn't force people into doing against their free will. As far as I'm concerned, the ban on prayer in school is a restriction of individual rights, not some sort of measure to keep the government from spawning out of control. And if there are those who don't wish to participate for X reason, they can choose to not.

So as long as their's the Pledge of Allegiance, prayer *has* to be allowed in school (albeit NOT coerced by the school)

Depends. Is this 'teacher-led' prayer? I assume so, in which case it's justifably banned since teachers are in a position of authority. Want to pray? Join/found a Christian Union.

Well, isn't this "Pledge of Alliegance" nothing but worship of the state?

No. The nation isn't a deity, it is the place where Americans live and there should be at least some attempt to bring our youth up with some semblance of respect for our country. The pledge isn't worship, its acknowledgement of a social contract between citizens and the country they live in.

As for the rest, yes I agree that there should be no limitation on a child's right to engage in religion on school grounds, so long as it isn't being encouraged or led by any employee of the public school system, or being orchestrated on the taxpayer's dollar. Nothing wrong with like-minded schoolchildren having a prayer circle, or something similar, on their own time.

So the 1st Amendment prohibits Congress from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof" - yet it has this ban on school prayer, and makes students recite (or at least stand in respect) during the Pledge of Allegiance.

Well, isn't this "Pledge of Alliegance" nothing but worship of the state?

Here's the thing; as a libertarian, I see no problem with allowing students to pray in school if they consent to it, as long as the school doesn't force people into doing against their free will. As far as I'm concerned, the ban on prayer in school is a restriction of individual rights, not some sort of measure to keep the government from spawning out of control. And if there are those who don't wish to participate for X reason, they can choose to not.

So as long as their's the Pledge of Allegiance, prayer *has* to be allowed in school (albeit NOT coerced by the school)

Congratulations. You're an idiot.

Its not worship of the state. Its pledging alliegance. That means you vow to be loyal. It is not a prayer, and doesn't really force you to do anything. Just pledge.

But who in their right mind would think it is prayer? Its not a god.

But I have to agree, let students choose whether or not to pray to almighty Federal America.
Amen!

BTW, I'm glad no one else deems this important enough to respond to.

So the 1st Amendment prohibits Congress from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof" - yet it has this ban on school prayer, and makes students recite (or at least stand in respect) during the Pledge of Allegiance.

Well, isn't this "Pledge of Alliegance" nothing but worship of the state?

Here's the thing; as a libertarian, I see no problem with allowing students to pray in school if they consent to it, as long as the school doesn't force people into doing against their free will. As far as I'm concerned, the ban on prayer in school is a restriction of individual rights, not some sort of measure to keep the government from spawning out of control. And if there are those who don't wish to participate for X reason, they can choose to not.

So as long as their's the Pledge of Allegiance, prayer *has* to be allowed in school (albeit NOT coerced by the school)


Prayer is allowed in school.

School-led prayer is not.

"under god" should be removed from the pledge of allegiance because it is contrary to the establishment clause of the first amendment, and on the same grounds that shcool-led prayer was done away with.

pledging allegiance is not worship, and "worship" of a state is not religion.

So the 1st Amendment prohibits Congress from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof" - yet it has this ban on school prayer, and makes students recite (or at least stand in respect) during the Pledge of Allegiance.

Well, isn't this "Pledge of Alliegance" nothing but worship of the state?

Here's the thing; as a libertarian, I see no problem with allowing students to pray in school if they consent to it, as long as the school doesn't force people into doing against their free will. As far as I'm concerned, the ban on prayer in school is a restriction of individual rights, not some sort of measure to keep the government from spawning out of control. And if there are those who don't wish to participate for X reason, they can choose to not.

So as long as their's the Pledge of Allegiance, prayer *has* to be allowed in school (albeit NOT coerced by the school)

Wait, who said people couldn't pray in schools?

As long as the teacher or other faculty don't specifically condone it, there should be nothing wrong with it.

The Pledge should also not be mandatory, nor condoned by teachers or other faculty. That does, of course, not mean that students can't do it if they want.

So the 1st Amendment prohibits Congress from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof" - yet it has this ban on school prayer, and makes students recite (or at least stand in respect) during the Pledge of Allegiance.

Well, isn't this "Pledge of Alliegance" nothing but worship of the state?

Here's the thing; as a libertarian, I see no problem with allowing students to pray in school if they consent to it, as long as the school doesn't force people into doing against their free will. As far as I'm concerned, the ban on prayer in school is a restriction of individual rights, not some sort of measure to keep the government from spawning out of control. And if there are those who don't wish to participate for X reason, they can choose to not.

So as long as their's the Pledge of Allegiance, prayer *has* to be allowed in school (albeit NOT coerced by the school)

LOL.

Prayer is allowed in school -- just as you say, "NOT coerced by the school."

As a libertarian, I would think you would be against any government sponsored or endorsed religion. That violates individual rights.

And, in case you didn't catch, one should not be coerced to say the Pledge, either.

That is a liberal view.

I never say the Pledge because I don't trust the State most of the time.

No. The nation isn't a deity, it is the place where Americans live and there should be at least some attempt to bring our youth up with some semblance of respect for our country. The pledge isn't worship, its acknowledgement of a social contract between citizens and the country they live in.

I just googled it, and it's pure-and-simple low-level brainwashing. It encourages mindless state-worship, has 'God' in it (nothing against the guy myself ;) but what about atheists?), and doesn't actually describe the US. Mind you, I'm against any kind of patriotism.

It may not be a prayer, but I'll bet dollars to donuts there's little difference psychologically.

No. The nation isn't a deity, it is the place where Americans live and there should be at least some attempt to bring our youth up with some semblance of respect for our country. The pledge isn't worship, its acknowledgement of a social contract between citizens and the country they live in.

Thats the text-book deffinition of it. Whats the REAL deffinition? Its almost a form of communism. Love the country your in, ador it forever. Follow us always. You can have your own god, sure, but you have to follw Mr.President like a blind fool.

I just googled it, and it's pure-and-simple low-level brainwashing. It encourages mindless state-worship, has 'God' in it (nothing against the guy myself ;) but what about atheists?), and doesn't actually describe the US. Mind you, I'm against any kind of patriotism.

It may not be a prayer, but I'll bet dollars to donuts there's little difference psychologically.

Thats the text-book deffinition of it. Whats the REAL deffinition? Its almost a form of communism. Love the country your in, ador it forever. Follow us always. You can have your own god, sure, but you have to follw Mr.President like a blind fool.

Bullshit.

I'm no big fan of the Pledge (particularly the "under God" which was added in the 1950s), but you are being juvenile and ridiculous.

I pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible,
with Liberty and Justice for all.

Do you pledge to the government? No.

To the President? No.

You pledge to the ideals of the nation -- a Republic with Liberty and Justice
for all.

Any real patriot feels free -- no, feels it is his/her duty -- to criticize the President, the government, or the nation when any of them are wrong.

Pray tell, what is wrong with pledging your allegiance to the concept of Liberty? to Justice?

So the 1st Amendment prohibits Congress from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof" - yet it has this ban on school prayer, and makes students recite (or at least stand in respect) during the Pledge of Allegiance.

Well, isn't this "Pledge of Alliegance" nothing but worship of the state?

Here's the thing; as a libertarian, I see no problem with allowing students to pray in school if they consent to it, as long as the school doesn't force people into doing against their free will. As far as I'm concerned, the ban on prayer in school is a restriction of individual rights, not some sort of measure to keep the government from spawning out of control. And if there are those who don't wish to participate for X reason, they can choose to not.

So as long as their's the Pledge of Allegiance, prayer *has* to be allowed in school (albeit NOT coerced by the school)


The whole bit about "under God" was put in back in the 50s to "weed out" Communists...which is ridiculous, imo. In Texas, they passed a bill about a year or so ago that made everyone pledge their allegiance to not just the US flag, but the Texas state one as well. If you wanted to not pledge to either one, you had to have a parent sign a form saying that it was alright. Also, following the pledges, there was a "moment of silence" for the students to "reflect on the previous night's homework, their lives,etc", and you had to participate in that. To me, it was a thinly veiled attempt at allowing prayer in school. What's interesting to note is that the same people who passed this in the legislature now take up the alloted time by praying, and don't say the pledge.

I personally don't think there should be prayer in school, as I strongly believe in the "Seperation of Church and State" bit of the Constitution.

did it ever occur to anyone how fascist the plege is? maybe its just me but a room full of people saluting a flag, isn't really that much different from a room full of nazis saluting a swastika. and besides, we don't even plege allegiance to the state, we "plege allegience to the FLAG of the United Sates of America."

AS for it being hypocritical of the First amendment, i don't believe so. For one its is not require that you say the plege or actually even stand durring the recesitation, you just do out of respect and/or fear of confontaion with some crazy right winger. The plege doesn't specify an exact diety, it just says "under god," not under jesus, allah, budha, or any other religious figure. and by defintion a god is simply "an idolized person or thing." There is no worship and or prayer involed.

Bullshit.

I'm no big fan of the Pledge (particularly the "under God" which was added in the 1950s), but you are being juvenile and ridiculous.

I pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible,
with Liberty and Justice for all.

Do you pledge to the government? No.

To the President? No.

You pledge to the ideals of the nation -- a Republic with Liberty and Justice
for all.

Any real patriot feels free -- no, feels it is his/her duty -- to criticize the President, the government, or the nation when any of them are wrong.

Pray tell, what is wrong with pledging your allegiance to the concept of Liberty? to Justice?
one of the founding fathers said something like that but i forget which one. it was like any true patriot speaks out against his government or something.
anyone know?

Well, isn't this "Pledge of Alliegance" nothing but worship of the state?



Not neccessarily. I would suggest that the "Pledge of Allegiance" is really just something students do because they are told to do so.
Personally, I don't say, despite my patriotism, because I want no association with the people who say it simply for the above reason.
And because I think my state government (Illinois) legislated it because of 9/11, or a temporary surge in patriotism (IE, blind emotion), and not out of true national fervor.

did it ever occur to anyone how fascist the plege is? maybe its just me but a room full of people saluting a flag, isn't really that much different from a room full of nazis saluting a swastika. and besides, we don't even plege allegiance to the state, we "plege allegience to the FLAG of the United Sates of America."

AS for it being hypocritical of the First amendment, i don't believe so. For one its is not require that you say the plege or actually even stand durring the recesitation, you just do out of respect and/or fear of confontaion with some crazy right winger. The plege doesn't specify an exact diety, it just says "under god," not under jesus, allah, budha, or any other religious figure. and by defintion a god is simply "an idolized person or thing." There is no worship and or prayer involed.
1. well actually the word "god" is an english translation of the god referred to in the 3 major monotheistic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam). it is specifically exclusive of any and all polytheistic religions.
2. your comparison of saluting the flag to nazism is extremely child like. you have taken two similar images and have associated them with an extreme lack of any sort of critical thinking. nazism is different from democracy not because of how people respect their flag, but how the government operates and how you actually have personal and politcal freedoms. (dwindling at best in America). trust me its much different.

Pray tell, what is wrong with pledging your allegiance to the concept of Liberty? to Justice?

It associates those concepts with the nation. If repeated, every day, it soon works itsway into the subconscious. Hence, any attack/criticism of their nation becomes an attack on these values. You may not believe me, but I've seen it happen. It may not affect such enlightened individuals as yourselves, but a fool is born every minute (or so they say).

No. The nation isn't a deity, it is the place where Americans live and there should be at least some attempt to bring our youth up with some semblance of respect for our country. The pledge isn't worship, its acknowledgement of a social contract between citizens and the country they live in.

I really could care less about the empire.

It associates those concepts with the nation. If repeated, every day, it soon works itsway into the subconscious. Hence, any attack/criticism of their nation becomes an attack on these values. You may not believe me, but I've seen it happen. It may not affect such enlightened individuals as yourselves, but a fool is born every minute (or so they say).

"you've seen it happen"?

Who are you? A cross between Methuselah and Diane Fossey?

I really could care less about the empire.

Even if you knew the empire slaughtered innocent jawas??

"you've seen it happen"?

Who are you? A cross between Mithridates and Diane Fossey?
Dammit, I knew it would happen eventually, Cat-Tribe made a reference I didn't get...I was feeling pretty with it up until that....don't explain it, I'll look it up (it's the way you learn, ugh...)

Refreshed to see so many people keen on nailing the characterization of school prayer. One of the few times I really wished NS was an accurate cross-section of the populace.

EDIT: (after looking it all up) Damn, I did get that....well, not the Mithridates part...

Dammit, I knew it would happen eventually, Cat-Tribe made a reference I didn't get...I was feeling pretty with it up until that....don't explain it, I'll look it up (it's the way you learn, ugh...)

Refreshed to see so many people keen on nailing the characterization of school prayer. One of the few times I really wished NS was an accurate cross-section of the populace.

Actually, I meant Methuselah. (So much for being witty. :p )

I was thinking of Mithridates because of the A.E. Housman poem, "Terence, this is stupid stuff" which ends:
" I tell the tale that I heard told.
Mithridates, he died old."

Actually, I meant Methuselah. (So much for being witty. :p )

I was thinking of Mithridates because of the A.E. Housman poem, "Terence, this is stupid stuff" which ends:
" I tell the tale that I heard told.
Mithridates, he died old."
Okay, good-that makes sense. Whew....'cause I gotta be honest, I wasn't all that sure how he worked in there...Fossey I just had a brain skip.

"you've seen it happen"?

Who are you? A cross between Methuselah and Diane Fossey?
I meant there are people out there who think that way, and I've spoken to my fair share of them. You try to say anything bad about the US, they get incredibly (irrationally) defensive, as if you're trying to undermine their grip on reality or something.

Even if you knew the empire slaughtered innocent jawas??

Yeah, like there's such a thing as an innocent jawa :p

Even if you knew the empire slaughtered innocent jawas??Ha! Innocent Jawas... no such thing... they're all liers and swindlers... like lawers... [looks at Cat-Tribe ^.^;] sorry... Make that Hutt-wanna-be's...

I meant there are people out there who think that way, and I've spoken to my fair share of them. You try to say anything bad about the US, they get incredibly (irrationally) defensive, as if you're trying to undermine their grip on reality or something.

And that would be because of the Pledge of Allegiance? :rolleyes:

I like my country (America) but seriously, standing up and sitting down and muttering the pledge of alegience (sp) every single damn day is awful. I know I'm loyal to my country and so does everyone else. How many times do I need to tell people? I'm not religious. I don't want part of my Algebra class to be to pray. Church and school are completely seperate subjects and should never be put together.

And that would be because of the Pledge of Allegiance? :rolleyes:

Fine, so I don't have research to back up a causal relationship. However, this is exactly the kind of behaviour used to instill such delusions, and when children are subjected to it it's likely to imprint.

So the 1st Amendment prohibits Congress from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof" - yet it has this ban on school prayer, and makes students recite (or at least stand in respect) during the Pledge of Allegiance.

Well, isn't this "Pledge of Alliegance" nothing but worship of the state?

Here's the thing; as a libertarian, I see no problem with allowing students to pray in school if they consent to it, as long as the school doesn't force people into doing against their free will. As far as I'm concerned, the ban on prayer in school is a restriction of individual rights, not some sort of measure to keep the government from spawning out of control. And if there are those who don't wish to participate for X reason, they can choose to not.

So as long as their's the Pledge of Allegiance, prayer *has* to be allowed in school (albeit NOT coerced by the school)


Prayer is not banned in US schools. This is a commonly held misconception. Prayers led by teachers and persons of authority are. A student may pray in school at any time so long as it is not disruptive. (For instance, reciting prayers aloud during a test, haranguing other students that they will go to hell if they do not believe X or Y and pray.)

let me get a few things straight before i get underway. I am an atheist, brought up jewish, but i really have no faith at all anymore, and i dont think i ever will again. im a true beleive of science and more realistic ways of evolution and theories such as the big bang.

with that out of the way, i say there is absolutely nothing wrong with the pledge of allegiance as it stands. yes i know 'under god' was add in the 50's ti undermine the spread of communism during the red scare. SO WHAT? I ask you... who does it hurt, when someone says under god? i completely believe that there is no such thing as a god, just a fable, and story, and blah blah, you know the athiest rap sheet. but still, the statement doesnt offend. also, no one is holding a gun to your head tell you to say the pledge of alligiance, there was a supreme court case, where a guy sued a school for having his daughter say the pledge of alligiance.. they guy and his daughter lost that case.

there is nothing wrong with pledging your allegiance... and if you feel it necessayr, leave out the part 'under god' when you say it. i either dont say the pledge (b/c its early in the mornign and im not in the mood to speak), or skip that 'under god' part. and im tired of hearing this "separation of church and state" bullshit. jeez, these ppl have to give the complaing a rest... as far as im aware (at least in New york) there are no prayers in school.. there are moments of silence if someone in the community dies or something, but no prayers. By saying the pledge of allegiance, which is a timeless piece of american history, there is not connection b/c church and state at all. The SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE was meant so that ordinary schools would be progressive, and wouldnt favor a religion and preach it to the young. in hte pledge of allegiance, this is not the case, no one is preaching, it is a simple pledge to the country (and though im sure no one actually pays attantion to waht theyrer saying, and most ppl really dont pledge their allegiance to the country), and nothing more. so get over it, stop whining, pissing, moaning and complaining, let it go, keep the pledge the same, its not hurting anyone
-concerned athiest

So the 1st Amendment prohibits Congress from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof" - yet it has this ban on school prayer, and makes students recite (or at least stand in respect) during the Pledge of Allegiance.

Well, isn't this "Pledge of Alliegance" nothing but worship of the state?

Here's the thing; as a libertarian, I see no problem with allowing students to pray in school if they consent to it, as long as the school doesn't force people into doing against their free will. As far as I'm concerned, the ban on prayer in school is a restriction of individual rights, not some sort of measure to keep the government from spawning out of control. And if there are those who don't wish to participate for X reason, they can choose to not.

So as long as their's the Pledge of Allegiance, prayer *has* to be allowed in school (albeit NOT coerced by the school)

Praying on a personal basis is banned in school? sensce when?

let me get a few things straight before i get underway. I am an atheist, brought up jewish, but i really have no faith at all anymore, and i dont think i ever will again. im a true beleive of science and more realistic ways of evolution and theories such as the big bang.

with that out of the way, i say there is absolutely nothing wrong with the pledge of allegiance as it stands. yes i know 'under god' was add in the 50's ti undermine the spread of communism during the red scare. SO WHAT? I ask you... who does it hurt, when someone says under god? i completely believe that there is no such thing as a god, just a fable, and story, and blah blah, you know the athiest rap sheet. but still, the statement doesnt offend. also, no one is holding a gun to your head tell you to say the pledge of alligiance, there was a supreme court case, where a guy sued a school for having his daughter say the pledge of alligiance.. they guy and his daughter lost that case.

there is nothing wrong with pledging your allegiance... and if you feel it necessayr, leave out the part 'under god' when you say it. i either dont say the pledge (b/c its early in the mornign and im not in the mood to speak), or skip that 'under god' part. and im tired of hearing this "separation of church and state" bullshit. jeez, these ppl have to give the complaing a rest... as far as im aware (at least in New york) there are no prayers in school.. there are moments of silence if someone in the community dies or something, but no prayers. By saying the pledge of allegiance, which is a timeless piece of american history, there is not connection b/c church and state at all. The SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE was meant so that ordinary schools would be progressive, and wouldnt favor a religion and preach it to the young. in hte pledge of allegiance, this is not the case, no one is preaching, it is a simple pledge to the country (and though im sure no one actually pays attantion to waht theyrer saying, and most ppl really dont pledge their allegiance to the country), and nothing more. so get over it, stop whining, pissing, moaning and complaining, let it go, keep the pledge the same, its not hurting anyone
-concerned athiest

I think the teaching of Creationism as a science is the main reason atheists keep bringing up the "Separation of Church and State". That, and the fact that some areas of the country did still, until recently (as far as I know) require a time for prayer.

Prayer is not banned in US schools. This is a commonly held misconception. Prayers led by teachers and persons of authority are. A student may pray in school at any time so long as it is not disruptive. (For instance, reciting prayers aloud during a test, haranguing other students that they will go to hell if they do not believe X or Y and pray.)
That was my take on it as well

*snip* there was a supreme court case, where a guy sued a school for having his daughter say the pledge of alligiance.. they guy and his daughter lost that case.

You have a habit of lecturing people about the "law" when you don't know what you are talking about. (And I recognize the irony to many in my saying that. ;) )

Actually, the Supreme Court decided in 1943 that schools could not require any student to say the Pledge. See West Virginia State Bd. of Educ. v. Barnette (http://laws.findlaw.com/us/319/624.html ), 319 U.S. 624 (1943).

The more recent case was over the addition of "under God" via statute in the 1950s. The Supreme Court did not decide the case on its merits. They decided the father lacked standing to pursue the case. See Elk Grove v. Nednow (http://laws.findlaw.com/us/000/02-1624.html ) (2004).

there is nothing wrong with pledging your allegiance... and if you feel it necessayr, leave out the part 'under god' when you say it. i either dont say the pledge (b/c its early in the mornign and im not in the mood to speak), or skip that 'under god' part. and im tired of hearing this "separation of church and state" bullshit. jeez, these ppl have to give the complaing a rest... as far as im aware (at least in New york) there are no prayers in school.. there are moments of silence if someone in the community dies or something, but no prayers. By saying the pledge of allegiance, which is a timeless piece of american history, there is not connection b/c church and state at all. The SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE was meant so that ordinary schools would be progressive, and wouldnt favor a religion and preach it to the young. in hte pledge of allegiance, this is not the case, no one is preaching, it is a simple pledge to the country (and though im sure no one actually pays attantion to waht theyrer saying, and most ppl really dont pledge their allegiance to the country), and nothing more. so get over it, stop whining, pissing, moaning and complaining, let it go, keep the pledge the same, its not hurting anyone
-concerned athiest

Hardly "a timeless" piece of history. The whole concept of the Pledge originated a little over 100 years ago. The Pledge has changed and was not widely used during that time. The Pledge was actually not official until 1942. Both the manner and the wording of the pledge were subsequently altered.

Your view of separation of church and state is badly skewed, but it is hardly relevant.

The addition of "under God" to the Pledge via statute in 1954 was a violation of the First Amendment.

It may be so de minimis as to be allowable, but it is a rather obvious government endorsement of religion.

So the 1st Amendment prohibits Congress from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof" - yet it has this ban on school prayer, and makes students recite (or at least stand in respect) during the Pledge of Allegiance.

Well, isn't this "Pledge of Alliegance" nothing but worship of the state?

Here's the thing; as a libertarian, I see no problem with allowing students to pray in school if they consent to it, as long as the school doesn't force people into doing against their free will. As far as I'm concerned, the ban on prayer in school is a restriction of individual rights, not some sort of measure to keep the government from spawning out of control. And if there are those who don't wish to participate for X reason, they can choose to not.

So as long as their's the Pledge of Allegiance, prayer *has* to be allowed in school (albeit NOT coerced by the school)

What people fail to understand is that the United States is still a VERY young nation. They have been thrust to the position of the last remaining superpower because of a large amount of resources in their land along with excellent management by politicians.

The Pledge of Allegiance is one of the things that a young nation can be expected to do. Another example is the American flag; the Americans treat it with such decorum, and American soldiersare expected to risk their lives to rescue the American flag from a foreign embassy. I'm not totally sure, but I believe that burning the flag is in fact illegal in the States.

These are all perfectly normal things for such a young nation. Their people still have such tremendous patriotic feelings, and this is perfectly normal. However, in a few hundred, possibly in a thousand years, the Americans will not be as patriotic as they are now.

As long as there are examinations, there will be prayer in schools.

:p

Not being american, this most likely isn't any of my business. I can definately see the problem, however, in roping kids into pledging allegience to their country before they even know what the words "pledge allegience" mean. All issues of national pride aside, you should at least make sure the kids know what they're doing before you have them rote-learn it.

Similarly, we have the same problem with the Lord's Prayer in British schools. Church and state aren't separated here, but the practice is more or less the same. Kids are taught to simply read off the example prayer of Jesus without having any idea what it is they're asking for; Thy Kingdom come? Do they want to incite the end of the world in schools these days?

Raw knowledge is pointless without understanding. As long as you teach the Pledge, you must ensure that the children are aware of the promise they are making and have the option to opt out where they wish.