NationStates Jolt Archive

Ladies and Gentlemen... sometimes, when people have too much free fukkin time on their hands, they actually use it to do something truly awe inspiring. Isaac Newton. Leonardo DaVinci. Those kids that used to make the giant dominos displays on 'That's Incredible!'. But what follows might just top them all. It certainly raises the bar.

Now I warn you, this is a very long quicktime movie. So consider this your official '56k warning'. If you can't watch this, or have a slow connection, tough titty. :(

Here it is. (http://download.theforce.net/theater/fxprojects/aots/ArtOfTheSaberMk2.mov)

Edit:I think I got it...

Damn you to hell you 56k tease. :(

Damn you to hell you 56k tease. :(

Sorry. :( It wasn't I who made it. But if it were 56k friendy, it just wouldn't be the same. Time to join the 21st century, Harley. :p

Yeah, I can do that. :rolleyes:

Yeah, I can do that. :rolleyes:

Maybe in slow motion. :p

Maybe in slow motion. :p
Naw, I do it all the time. Me and my fencing buddies take on the Taekwondo kids every other thursday.

Riiiight...

In all seriousness, this is totally worth a long download.

Riiiight...

In all seriousness, this is totally worth a long download.
Quit teasing me!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v630/harlesburg/Rogernomics.bmp
*runs away*

Riiiight...

In all seriousness, this is totally worth a long download.

I thought folks here would like it. :cool:

holy kerfucking shit. that's amazing, at least for fan work.

Wow, that must have taken some serious choreography.

Wow, that must have taken some serious choreography.

Or the Force. :D

A few years ago a friend and I decided to do some field research into whether or not you can actually throw swords (like in movies and video games)

The answer surprised us, it is quite possible.

Wow, that must have taken some serious choreography.

Yeah, no kidding. I must admit that the staff user was most impressive. The saber user was somewhat less so, perhaps its because I study the sword as well, but I kept noticing him screwing up or "missing opportunities" ;)

Their footwork indicated that they were probably well versed in a Chinese form of martial arts, though I hesitate to pick out which one (did they mention it in the credits? I didn't check.)

I hope one day my two students can rise to that level. I doubt it though, seeing as I'm the teacher ;)

That's some seriously talented Ho's

A few years ago a friend and I decided to do some field research into whether or not you can actually throw swords (like in movies and video games)

The answer surprised us, it is quite possible.

Throw? Sure! Return...I doubt it. Unless its a very special type of blade, its a one-way trip. Did you find otherwise?

I didn't want to tell you guys, but that's me and some people I know. Yeah, I'm amazing like that.

Throw? Sure! Return...I doubt it. Unless its a very special type of blade, its a one-way trip. Did you find otherwise?

You would have to put returning on the blade, and that's a +1 bonus. 2,000gp.

already seen it man

You would have to put returning on the blade, and that's a +1 bonus. 2,000gp.

I hate you RPG freaks. ;) I'm gonna kick your ass...assuming I roll a 4 or better.

(Niccolo Medici - Level 27 Hypocrite)

A few years ago a friend and I decided to do some field research into whether or not you can actually throw swords (like in movies and video games)

The answer surprised us, it is quite possible.

It all depends where the point of balance in the blade is.

A throwing knife will have its POB towards the tip so when you throw it the tip spends the most time facing in the direction you want it to, therefore more likely to strike the target.

Depending on what sword you want to 'throw' I wouldn't suggest it for any. Not unless you have the money anyways!!! :p

If you did, it would be a straight or leafblade, better a leafblade caus the POB would be easier to place, made of resonable flexible carbon steel.

In other words don't throw a Katana* or a Sabre(er), it really won't work.



*like Mr. Cruise in the god awful Last Samurai, don't forget kids, teh ÜBER 404 Stainless Steel FULL Push tang Battle Ready Fully Functional Katana Bushido Samurai Honour Sword TM can cut through rifles don't you know

I hate you RPG freaks. ;) I'm gonna kick your ass...assuming I roll a 4 or better.

(Niccolo Medici - Level 27 Hypocrite)

Wait, do you use THAC0? Because I'll have to give NASA a call to see if they can figure out whether or not you hit me.

It all depends where the point of balance in the blade is.

A throwing knife will have its POB towards the tip so when you throw it the tip spends the most time facing in the direction you want it to, therefore more likely to strike the target.

Depending on what sword you want to 'throw' I wouldn't suggest it for any. Not unless you have the money anyways!!! :p

If you did, it would be a straight or leafblade, better a leafblade caus the POB would be easier to place, made of resonable flexible carbon steel.

In other words don't throw a Katana or a Sabre(er), it really won't work.

Rapiers are remarkably easy to throw.

Rapiers are remarkably easy to throw.

Which sort of Rapier you looking at here? An early renaissance type heavy bladed one I presume with a slightly longer than normal blade?

That said they're so long throw em like spears! :D

Rapiers are remarkably easy to throw.
I need to get my mind out of the gutter..

You know something? I've never done lightsaber fighting, but my students and I train like crazy on "semi-real" kenjutsu (stopping short of contact, going until a clean hit is made). You'd be surprised just how easy it is to die when whirling a blade around you.

A lot of the flashy moves these guys throw out are good for confusing the enemy and little else. Half the time these two dance around each other, blades blurring on the screen, but a half-way competent swordsman could simply stick his sword into the tornado of limbs and hit something vital.

Its cool, VERY cool. But it'd get you killed. I'm firmly of the "BE flashy to impress your opponents before you fight" school, but in an actual fight its simply; "Apply sword to opponent's head or chest, repeat as needed."

Which sort of Rapier you looking at here? An early renaissance type heavy bladed one I presume with a slightly longer than normal blade?

That said they're so long throw em like spears! :D

Uh, the Epee foils my friend Evan got? He was president of the Fencing Club here at school, and when they got brand new foils, he grabbed a few of the old ones and we fucked around with them. Fencing foils are rapiers, more or less, right?

You know something? I've never done lightsaber fighting, but my students and I train like crazy on "semi-real" kenjutsu (stopping short of contact, going until a clean hit is made). You'd be surprised just how easy it is to die when whirling a blad around you.

A lot of the flashy moves these guys throw out are good for confusing the enemy and little else. Half the time these two dance around each other, blades blurring on the screen, but a half-way competent swordsman could simply stick his sword into the tornado of limbs and hit something vital.

Its cool, VERY cool. But it'd get you killed. I'm firmly of the "BE flashy to impress your opponents before you fight" school, but in an actual fight its simply; "Apply sword to opponent's head or chest, repeat as needed."

Well, yes, but that's the point. They're not trying to hit each other; they're trying to make a flashy show of things. I think we all realize that it's not a very accurate sword fight. ;)

You know something? I've never done lightsaber fighting, but my students and I train like crazy on "semi-real" kenjutsu (stopping short of contact, going until a clean hit is made). You'd be surprised just how easy it is to die when whirling a blad around you.

A lot of the flashy moves these guys throw out are good for confusing the enemy and little else. Half the time these two dance around each other, blades blurring on the screen, but a half-way competent swordsman could simply stick his sword into the tornado of limbs and hit something vital.

Its cool, VERY cool. But it'd get you killed. I'm firmly of the "BE flashy to impress your opponents before you fight" school, but in an actual fight its simply; "Apply sword to opponent's head or chest, repeat as needed."

I used to do Kendo, if you're good you keep it simple, if you are pretending to be good, you try flashy moves that never work :D

Then I switched to German Longsword and guess what! The same applies :D

Sure, as Nico said, flick your blade around at the start by all means, just don't do it when your opponent is about to attack you.

Well, yes, but that's the point. They're not trying to hit each other; they're trying to make a flashy show of things. I think we all realize that it's not a very accurate sword fight. ;)

You'd be surprised. People hear that you're involved in swordsmanship, its almost better to have a flashy routine to show them/tell them about. Really trying to kill someone is a less visually spectacular affair, and people get annoyed.

I found that both my pupils (born and raised on video games and movies) had vastly unrealistic expectations of what they could do when armed. One tried to do a behind-the-back hand transfer while advancing on me three times...each time I lowered my blade slightly and stabbed him in the stomach (rather, I let him impale himself on my blade). Three times! I almost felt sorry for him.

Guess I'm straying too far into shop-talk. Continue ;)

I used to do Kendo, if you're good you keep it simple, if you are pretending to be good, you try flashy moves that never work :D

Then I switched to German Longsword and guess what! The same applies :D

Sure, as Nico said, flick your blade around at the start by all means, just don't do it when your opponent is about to attack you.
Thats all Chinese Wushu, its basically just supposed to look flashy. Besides they are making an homage to a movie. Movies gotta look sweet.

Uh, the Epee foils my friend Evan got? He was president of the Fencing Club here at school, and when they got brand new foils, he grabbed a few of the old ones and we fucked around with them. Fencing foils are rapiers, more or less, right?

Foils are sporting versions of Small Swords, which are kinda like http://img42.echo.cx/img42/6493/courtfull1ly.jpg

They came into existence a lot later than Rapiers. Rapiers were pretty heavy blades (between 2.5 to 4 lbs in weight) and were mainly duelling weapons, i.e. crappy on a battle field. Foils weigh next to nothing so they can be thrown, but they're nothing like a real sword, they were used as part of a young mans social training from the late 18th Century onwards IIRC.

You'd be surprised. People hear that you're involved in swordsmanship, its almost better to have a flashy routine to show them/tell them about. Really trying to kill someone is a less visually spectacular affair, and people get annoyed.

I found that both my pupils (born and raised on video games and movies) had vastly unrealistic expectations of what they could do when armed. One tried to do a behind-the-back hand transfer while advancing on me three times...each time I lowered my blade slightly and stabbed him in the stomach (rather, I let him impale himself on my blade). Three times! I almost felt sorry for him.

Guess I'm straying too far into shop-talk. Continue ;)

Hehe, i tried that when I started fencing, I learned quickly, too many sabre cuts made me! :D

I used to do Kendo, if you're good you keep it simple, if you are pretending to be good, you try flashy moves that never work :D

Then I switched to German Longsword and guess what! The same applies :D

Sure, as Niccolo said, flick your blade around at the start by all means, just don't do it when your opponent is about to attack you.

I knew I had a good Sensei when she said to the class while using me as a practice dummy, "Now, grab him by the hair, pull back and destroy his testicles with your other hand." Sure, I whimpered at the time, but she was effective in teaching us the difference flashy fun and business. A balance of both is truly educational.

I guess there just needs to be some understanding that what you are learning is either an art form or a defensive technique, and some overlap is to be expected. Knowing where one ends and the other begins makes martial arts a very rewarding experience. Helps the critical thinking...

I knew I had a good Sensei when she said to the class while using me as a practice dummy, "Now, grab him by the hair, pull back and destroy his testicles with your other hand." Sure, I whimpered at the time, but she was effective in teaching us the difference flashy fun and business. A balance of both is truly educational.

I guess there just needs to be some understanding that what you are learning is either an art form or a defensive technique, and some overlap is to be expected. Knowing where one ends and the other begins makes martial arts a very rewarding experience. Helps the critical thinking...

Very true, although I like swords fights on film, they are massively over complicated and too unrealistic (like always parrying with the edge and not the flat, whereas, more often than not, you diverted with the flat and launched into a counter straight away, well, in Talhoffer etc you do). The simplicity of true swordsmanship is something that is worth experiencing.

Excellent work for indie fim/fan productions.

Heh. I spent a day in physics last week where all our teacher did was explain to us why lightsabers are a physical impossibility.

Very true, although I like swords fights on film, they are massively over complicated and too unrealistic (like always parrying with the edge and not the flat, whereas, more often than not, you diverted with the flat and launched into a counter straight away, well, in Talhoffer etc you do). The simplicity of true swordsmanship is something that is worth experiencing.

Ever watch any old Samurai films? Some are laughably bad, but some are rather interesting. I found one called "Samurai Rebellion" Starring Toshiro Mifune (star of most of Kurosawa's famous films). His swordsmanship in that one was quite good, and quite learned; it balanced the need for action with an understanding of the internal forms of the art.

Another good one was a movie called "Sword of Doom" its an unfinished masterpiece. Mifune's in that one as well, though he doesn't star. The swordplay in that one is fantastic. I've probably watched the whole movie in slow motion by now.

The basic concept of the sword of doom is a new style that draws the opponent out to attack, and then hits whatever opening is presented. The "Silent style" that the movie is named after takes that principle to the extreme, even lowering the sword when your opponent backs away from you.

Perhaps lost on those not familiar with tactics and strategy, the whole movie deals with a principle of formless defense, and attacking vacuity. I was surprised by the very deep understanding of the principles behind swordplay that the movie held. Its such a pity that they didn't make an ending to the film. Strangely enough it WAS released, just ending in the middle of the last fight scene; story unresolved.

Good representaitons of swordplay ARE out there, but they are usually a bit hard to find and usually done by actors who got a chance to become producer/directors. Those seeking to experience that internal concentration and simplicity might benifit from such movies.

-snippidge-

I have to confess I have only seen 7 Samurai and Rashomon. Although the duel in 7 Samurai (between the 'expert' and the loud mouth show off) and fight in Rashomon are excellent.

The duel in 7 Samurai has an essence of the 'formless defence'. The expert calmly waits for the brash aggressor to attack, side steps and counters at the same time, all in brilliant slow motion. Thats a sword fight.

I'll keep an eye out for Sword of Doom though :)

I agree good fights are hard to find, even more so if you are looking for western martial arts. Kingdom of Heaven - all edge bashing like usual :rolleyes: . One of the better hollywood films is Rob Roy, although that period isn't really in my interest.

I have to confess I have only seen 7 Samurai and Rashomon. Although the duel in 7 Samurai (between the 'expert' and the loud mouth show off) and fight in Rashomon are excellent.

The duel in 7 Samurai has an essence of the 'formless defence'. The expert calmly waits for the brash aggressor to attack, side steps and counters at the same time, all in brilliant slow motion. Thats a sword fight.

I'll keep an eye out for Sword of Doom though :)

I agree good fights are hard to find, even more so if you are looking for western martial arts. Kingdom of Heaven - all edge bashing like usual :rolleyes: . One of the better hollywood films is Rob Roy, although that period isn't really in my interest.

Hmm...seems my previous response went 404 without me noticing. As I was saying, before Jolt rudely interrupted me, Sword of Doom and Samurai Rebellion both have amazing action sequences, although Rebellion's are a bit shorter and sparse, its story is amazing, and well worth sitting through to get to them.

Some good fencing scenes can be found in old 1930's hollywood movies. I've seen some rather impressive swordsmanship in those. Those to, are hard to come by and its common to see Robin-hood style prancing about instead.

Back in the Flashy-versus-Simple debate. I just watched (JUST watched) the first 3 episodes of Samurai Champloo, a new anime. Its two male protaginists are the very visualizations of this debate.

One is a traditional Samurai; cold, calm and with a simple style that relies on speed and elegance. The other fights literally like a breakdancing Wushu Master...something that needs to be seen to be appreciated. Its like a Brazilian form but with a Chinese Longsword.

They of course fight to a draw repeatedly, but its truly remarkable to see how a flashy form can be utilized effectively. I am reminded that some people (even though this example is ficticous) CAN pull off a flashy style and be effective in combat. Its simple beginners like myself who cannot master the more complex and vibrant forms.

The martial artist who played Darth Maul in Star Wars could hand me my ass on a platter. There's no denying that. Even through his "flashy" style it was obvious he was a vastly superior fighter in real life.

So I guess my eventual discovery is that flashy styles are simply harder to master, and are frequently used to cover up flaws in a fighter. They can be equally "valid" as combat forms, some just have higher minimum skill levels than others.

[QUOTE=Niccolo Medici "Now, grab him by the hair, pull back and destroy his testicles with your other hand." [/QUOTE]

Sounds like one of my ex-girlfriends. :(

Actually, it sounds like my rugby buddies too. :( :(

Wait, do you use THAC0? Because I'll have to give NASA a call to see if they can figure out whether or not you hit me.

Thaco isn't all that hard... of course, I have a degree in physics... :p

-snip-

Well flashy can be effective, but only when utilized and controlled effectively.

The martial artist you mention from Ep:1 (Ray Park), was flashy because it was a movie, plus those fight were of course coreographed so you could throw all that stuff in. Don't get me wrong, it looks good, but each time i see it i know the Mr.Park could annihilate Messers Neeson and McGregor, I can see the openings and half the time it frustrates me that he doens't just dispose of them.

Personally I'd take "simple and effective" over "flashy and 'might trip over my own blade'" anyday, but if your good enough, and it works then its the best for you.

Well flashy can be effective, but only when utilized and controlled effectively.

The martial artist you mention from Ep:1 (Ray Park), was flashy because it was a movie, plus those fight were of course coreographed so you could throw all that stuff in. Don't get me wrong, it looks good, but each time i see it i know the Mr.Park could annihilate Messers Neeson and McGregor, I can see the openings and half the time it frustrates me that he doens't just dispose of them.

Personally I'd take "simple and effective" over "flashy and 'might trip over my own blade'" anyday, but if your good enough, and it works then its the best for you.

I pretty much fight like a wrecking ball. Fast, blunt and violently simple.

Uh, the Epee foils my friend Evan got? He was president of the Fencing Club here at school, and when they got brand new foils, he grabbed a few of the old ones and we fucked around with them. Fencing foils are rapiers, more or less, right?

Rapiers are fairly heavy, half way in between later fencing swords and broadswords/arming swords/mortuary swords, they still have slashing edges and can cut through light armour, however they aren't truly a battle weapon.

As saber means to know in portuguese, I did not expect this to be about the art of the sabre. I always prefered the foil, used left handed of course. It is in complete contrast to me, it being fast, lithe, supple and my being more like your architypal ogre. But it works all the same.

I seem to be the only one here who hasn't taken formal sword-fighting lessons. :(

I seem to be the only one here who hasn't taken formal sword-fighting lessons. :(

I haven't, but my LARP experiance will kill you.

It all depends where the point of balance in the blade is.

A throwing knife will have its POB towards the tip so when you throw it the tip spends the most time facing in the direction you want it to, therefore more likely to strike the target.

Depending on what sword you want to 'throw' I wouldn't suggest it for any. Not unless you have the money anyways!!! :p

If you did, it would be a straight or leafblade, better a leafblade caus the POB would be easier to place, made of resonable flexible carbon steel.

In other words don't throw a Katana* or a Sabre(er), it really won't work.



*like Mr. Cruise in the god awful Last Samurai, don't forget kids, teh ÜBER 404 Stainless Steel FULL Push tang Battle Ready Fully Functional Katana Bushido Samurai Honour Sword TM can cut through rifles don't you know


I dont know the technical names of many western swords.

In any case, we used mainly junk from ebay, two small "claymore"s (maybe... 2.5 feet long, rather thin blade, "claymore" style hand guard, one handed swords)

also a ninja sword of about three feet long that was made in the same "full tang" style as a kitchen knife, it was very back-heavy but we threw it like a javelin.

also one katana from a chinatown type store, which we threw from a sheathed position and like a javelin.

The overhanded throw was somewhat effective.

The target was a pine tree about three feet away from a brick wall, so we wrecked one of the little claymores and bent the tip of the katana many times, but were able to pound it straight.

I have a katana which was made correctly, which i would never throw at anything! I did japanese sword lessons for a year and a half so I stay practiced through occaisional tameshigiri (cutting rolled tatami mats) and bokken practice. a bokken is basically a wooden katana.

I have long wanted a nice iato (unsharpened katana) but my interests have shifted and i'd rather spend the money elsewhere.

Well flashy can be effective, but only when utilized and controlled effectively.

The martial artist you mention from Ep:1 (Ray Park), was flashy because it was a movie, plus those fight were of course coreographed so you could throw all that stuff in. Don't get me wrong, it looks good, but each time i see it i know the Mr.Park could annihilate Messers Neeson and McGregor, I can see the openings and half the time it frustrates me that he doens't just dispose of them.

Personally I'd take "simple and effective" over "flashy and 'might trip over my own blade'" anyday, but if your good enough, and it works then its the best for you.

Agreed. Just as I said. I'd take Simple and effective too, but I belive there are those who are on another level entirely, and they can make it work in their favor to have wasted moves and extraneous movements.

Yeah, the Darth Maul scene was a lot of fun so long as you didn't allow your own combat instincts to kick in. Its like the old BS sensor that you have to turn off while watching ANY good sci-fi.

I seem to be the only one here who hasn't taken formal sword-fighting lessons. :(
Maybe something new to bring into your clown act?
"Ok, kids I'm going to entertain you with some great sword skills"
- swish swish swish -
"ahhhhhhh!!!!!"
"Ohhhhhhh. Whoops. I'm sure you probably don't need all those appendages. Well gotta go"

Thats all Chinese Wushu, its basically just supposed to look flashy. Besides they are making an homage to a movie. Movies gotta look sweet.
In an interview, Jacky Chan said that he could knock a man out with one blow, but how many people are going to pay $10 to go to a movie to see that? We want entertainment, dammit!

Anyone here seen 'Kingdom of Heaven'? That had some pretty good sword fighting scenes in it.
It also showed how easy it is to learn to fight with one. Orlando Bloom is given about 2 minutes practise at the start of the movie by his father, then one of his father's soldiers. A few minutes later he kills about a dozen men. Later 6 Templar Knights, and he's unarmed and umarmoured as well.
Which makes me wonder why you people are going on and on about how difficult sword fighting is.

Rapiers are fairly heavy, half way in between later fencing swords and broadswords/arming swords/mortuary swords, they still have slashing edges and can cut through light armour, however they aren't truly a battle weapon.

Precisely, although their cutting ability was limited, their use in defense was even worse. During the English Civil War it was written by Turner (in a chronical written at the time, which miraculosly survived th Protestant book burning that followed) "In the Time of the late Troubles* in England long Rapiers were used for a while and then laid aside"

*meaning the civil war. The quote itself is in Terry Brown's book English Martial Arts. If you can get a copy off amazon its well worth a read.

The mortuary sword (basket hilted single edged cavalry broadsword) was more effective on the battle field, being a better sword for cutting, having a stronger blade, and also being shorter for better handling in cramped close combat conditions.

Rapiers however were more effective in conditions such as a duel. With a strong thrust they could pierce hardened leather, but if an opponent was wearing a brest plate of steel, their use was limited to inflicting flesh wounds to unprotected areas such as the neck and arms, this limiting their use.

Anyone here seen 'Kingdom of Heaven'? That had some pretty good sword fighting scenes in it.
It also showed how easy it is to learn to fight with one. Orlando Bloom is given about 2 minutes practise at the start of the movie by his father, then one of his father's soldiers. A few minutes later he kills about a dozen men. Later 6 Templar Knights, and he's unarmed and umarmoured as well.
Which makes me wonder why you people are going on and on about how difficult sword fighting is.

I truly hope that was being sarcastic :D

I sat their and Liam Neeson goes

"This one is called the Posta di Falcone by the Italians"

and i thought woohoo! finally decent realistic sword fight that actually uses realistic techniques from the historical manuals...

but no :(

Edge on edge bashing (granted, edge parries were sometimes used in longsword but the vast vast majority of parries were made using the falt of the blade to deflect an opponents attack and launch straight into a counter attack, not the BS that was portrayed in Kingdom of Heaven), hollywood crap again...but thats the way it goes.