NationStates Jolt Archive

Alright, I'm getting sick of people using the DNA argument to declair whether something is a person or isn't. A lengthy quadrinary code of amino acids that synthesizes protiens is not what makes you a person. If this were so, then removing all of the DNA molecules from a person would make them a non person and freely killable. DNA is nothing more than a code, no more inherent to personhood than the binary code on your harddrive.

What makes a person a person is thought. Feeling. Emotion. The ability to look at a painting and for it to have some meaning to you beyond a splotch of colors on a wall. (or hear music, or whatever other artistic thing so no one thinks I'm discriminating against blind or deaf people.)
You are a person because of your mind. Without your mind all that is left is a body. A hunk of flesh.

This is why abortion before a fetus has developed a mind is no more immoral than the removal of one's appendix. This is why Terri Schiavo's feeding tube removal was not immoral (forgetting for the moment that it was, arguably, what she wanted.) Truly, Mrs. Schiavo died fifteen years ago, when her mind ceased, and her heart and lungs kept working. The body is nothing more than a machine. DNA is nothing more than a code. Abortion is not killing babies (if done early enough).

Think about yourself. What makes you a person, what makes you who you are. Is it the code in your cells? If someone shot you, but cut off your hand and kept it alive, would you be any less dead, just because the hand is alive and carries your genetic code?

God, what's gotten into me? I never write posts this long!

The ability to look at a painting and for it to have some meaning to you beyond a splotch of colors on a wall.
A surprising number of people see nothing but colors on a wall, sadly enough.

Consider the species name: Homo Sapiens. Wise/Thinking Man.

By the very name of our species, one is only a member of it, a 'person' if you will, if one can think. I don't care what the thoughts /are/, but without brain activity, there's really nothing there.

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://bioteach.ubc.ca/TeachingResources/Genetics/Mouse%26Ear.jpg&imgrefurl=http://bioteach.ubc.ca/TeachingResources/Genetics/Mouse%26Ear.html&h=288&w=358&sz=18&tbnid=0LZ81Z5TJuIJ:&tbnh=94&tbnw=117&hl=en&start=1&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dear%2Bon%2Bmouse%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN

I agree
Unless you can tell me that ^ that ^ is a human, you need to sit down and shut up.

If your DNA was removed and your cells were not given instructions to make chemical reactions you wouldn't be able to think.

Consider the species name: Homo Sapiens. Wise/Thinking Man.

By the very name of our species, one is only a member of it, a 'person' if you will, if one can think. I don't care what the thoughts /are/, but without brain activity, there's really nothing there.
Although I agree with what yoru essentially trying to convey, i think yoru argument is all wrong. A name is just a title a human (flawed being) has given something (especially itself). At the very least we're biased.

YES IT DOES

Thats why every time someone gets their toe amputated the toe has human DNA and as we know any time you destroy the object with human DNA you are a murderer abortion doctors murder babies surgeons murder millions of people by letting to toe or appendix die if it has dna it is a human being if it is little it is a BABY stop killing babies you know it is wrong.

At the moment of conception when the Cromozones match up your DNA has already picked your intellengence level. So if your unlucky and you get the IQ limit of 51.... How much of a person are you by your theory?

If your DNA was removed and your cells were not given instructions to make chemical reactions you wouldn't be able to think.
Ok, let's assume that you're being supplied with the necessary protiens some other way.

YES IT DOES

Thats why every time someone gets their toe amputated the toe has human DNA and as we know any time you destroy the object with human DNA you are a murderer abortion doctors murder babies surgeons murder millions of people by letting to toe or appendix die if it has dna it is a human being if it is little it is a BABY stop killing babies you know it is wrong.
NO ITS NOT

Thats why every time someone gets their toe amputated its not considered a seperate being and given all legal rights. The toe cant think and neither can the 'baby'. The toe cant feel pain and neither can the 'baby' (depending on what part of the pregnancy your in)

Does this mean that retarded people are less of human beings?

Thats unnatural and now you contridict yourself....

At the moment of conception when the Cromozones match up your DNA has already picked your intellengence level. So if your unlucky and you get the IQ limit of 51.... How much of a person are you by your theory?
Thats like saying a virus has an IQ. a strand of DNA is not IQ.

Does this mean that retarded people are less of human beings?
Thats my argument.

Ok, let's assume that you're being supplied with the necessary protiens some other way.

Then I guess you would be a sentient being, but not necessarily a human being. Humans need DNA to be human, however it is not the only thing you need to be human/alive.

Does this mean that retarded people are less of human beings?
I believe so, yes. Dont make a Hitler out of me, im not saying kill the mentally retarded, im saying they're like young children or animals.

NO ITS NOT

Thats why every time someone gets their toe amputated its not considered a seperate being and given all legal rights. The toe cant think and neither can the 'baby'. The toe cant feel pain and neither can the 'baby' (depending on what part of the pregnancy your in)


YES IT IS

Your toe doesnt feel pain how about it get HIT WITH A HAMMER!???

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????





(maybe it will knock a sense of sarcasm into it...)

Then I guess you would be a sentient being, but not necessarily a human being. Humans need DNA to be human, however it is not the only thing you need to be human/alive.
Well that depends on your definition, do you agree with (buddy who created this thread) or with the extream catholics.

Alright, I'm getting sick of people using the DNA argument to declair whether something is a person or isn't. A lengthy quadrinary code of amino acids that synthesizes protiens is not what makes you a person.

There are no amino acids in DNA, there are 2 types of nucleotside bases (2 per type, for a total of 4). Adenine, Guanine, Thymine, Cytosine. Often shortened to A,T,G,C. A goes with T, G goes with C in properly based pair DNA.

You are mixing up RNA transcription with protein synthesis. Protein synthesis is using the RNA from transciption to syntheise polypeptide/protein products. To further confuse the issue, this is carried out in ribosomes (loaded with rRNA) in the rough endoplasmic recticulum. tRNA carry amino acids to ribosomes where they are connected in a specific order to form a protein product.

Get your facts right.


If this were so, then removing all of the DNA molecules from a person would make them a non person and freely killable.

There'd be no need to kill such a person, as they'd very soon be dead anyways. No DNA -> no mRNA -> no protein -> no replenishment of depleted essential enzymes -> death by any number of means.

Thats like saying a virus has an IQ. a strand of DNA is not IQ.
Woo, where that come from? This guy is saying thought makes us human not DNA. What I meant is DNA chooses your intellegence level. So you must have bad genetics. Just Kidding;)

At the moment of conception when the Cromozones match up your DNA has already picked your intellengence level. So if your unlucky and you get the IQ limit of 51.... How much of a person are you by your theory?
about a half so a peorsn only gets 20 years if they kill them.

YES IT IS

Your toe doesnt feel pain how about it get HIT WITH A HAMMER!???

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????





(maybe it will knock a sense of sarcasm into it...)
Thats in your brain. You have nerve endings in your toe, yes, but if theyre not connecting to your brain you feel no pain. its the MIND that generates this. Also take not of tickleing if you want to explore this topic further.

No, any level of thought is enough to qualify as a person. It's not a sliding scale, it's a on-or-off state.

There are no amino acids in DNA, there are 2 types of nucleotside bases (2 per type, for a total of 4). Adenine, Guanine, Thymine, Cytosine. Often shortened to A,T,G,C. A goes with T, G goes with C in properly based pair DNA.

You are mixing up RNA transcription with protein synthesis. Protein synthesis is using the RNA from transciption to syntheise polypeptide/protein products. To further confuse the issue, this is carried out in ribosomes (loaded with rRNA) in the rough endoplasmic recticulum. tRNA carry amino acids to ribosomes where they are connected in a specific order to form a protein product.

Get your facts right.
hahah thank you, you can recall grade 11 biology.
Moving on to a more serious matter... *next post please*

If you amputate a foot many cases the person may still "feel" that foot. Considering that its laying around in a jar or something your mind is I guess Im shall call it tricking its self...

Woo, where that come from? This guy is saying thought makes us human not DNA. What I meant is DNA chooses your intellegence level. So you must have bad genetics. Just Kidding;)
Nature vs Nurture. We can argue it all you want, there is no end, there is no conclusio, we know its both. Dont give me the "its all in your dna" bullshit, thats what your mommy told you when you failed your grade 4 math test.

Actually, we can unlock stephen hawking was the class clown, the partyer, and then he was told he would lose his life in 2 months, and he lived past that, and then he got inspired, and then he unlocked his IQ potential.

Theres an abused child who cant do dick squat cuz daddy keeps putting things betwen my legs.

Both nature and nurture.

No, any level of thought is enough to qualify as a person. It's not a sliding scale, it's a on-or-off state.
so every creature is a person? an dog, bee, a bear, at the very least they have the freudian version of ID

Well that depends on your definition, do you agree with (buddy who created this thread) or with the extream catholics.

I agree with the thread starter more than the Catholic church, however if you are sentient and do not have human DNA you are not human, you are a sentient being, but not human. I think we need thought and DNA to be really an 'alive' human.

Nature vs Nurture. We can argue it all you want, there is no end, there is no conclusio, we know its both. Dont give me the "its all in your dna" bullshit, thats what your mommy told you when you failed your grade 4 math test.

Actually, we can unlock stephen hawking was the class clown, the partyer, and then he was told he would lose his life in 2 months, and he lived past that, and then he got inspired, and then he unlocked his IQ potential.

Theres an abused child who cant do dick squat cuz daddy keeps putting things betwen my legs.

Both nature and nurture.

Hey what would happen if we took to kids and gave them the same education? Only one had a highier Itellengence limit. Who would be smarter?
And why are you giving me one time sititions?Einstein failed most of his classes. But because of his high intelligence level didn't need to be a straight A student. I can get my buddy who is a class clown and drinker and say, You must be a hidden genius?

Thats in your brain. You have nerve endings in your toe, yes, but if theyre not connecting to your brain you feel no pain. its the MIND that generates this. Also take not of tickleing if you want to explore this topic further.

Jesus H Christ, please tell me that you've sensed the sarcasm in the post and were just neglecting to allude to it.

Cyrian Space, Are you asserting that you know that fetuses and people in a so called "vegetative" state don't think and feel? It would appear so... and that claim is ludicrous.

I believe so, yes. Dont make a Hitler out of me, im not saying kill the mentally retarded, im saying they're like young children or animals.

So now young children are lesser beings... though I believe we should eat our children alive, the message you send is, ermm, disturbing.

DNA decided if you were human or not. Your body is made up of organ systems. Those are comprised of organs. Those are made up of tissues, which are collections of cells. Cells are made up of 3 things: water, nutrients, and protiens. DNA is heavily involved in the making of protiens. Of course, removing a strand of dna from you won't make you unhuman because each of your trillion cells has many strands of DNA in them. You'll still have trillions of back-up copies. Your brain is what does the thinking and feeling. It is made up of protiens because it is an organ. Most of the brian is hard-wired to think, feel, and remember. It doesn't matter if you are that kid in the special ed classes or the person who makes the next great discovery, you are human. You have been human since your organs developed and you gained your sences. This is somewhere in the third and final stage of pregnancy because experiments and studies on dead and living fetuses at that stage proved that the fetus can feel pain at that point. It can also think, but not as well as us because the size of its brain limits this capacity. It has to be small to be born without killing the mother. There are people who feel that babies aren't human. There are those who feel that the mentally challenged or the Jewish or the black people aren't human. Then there are those who don't have issues and consider those people human. Are you the racist or are you the one without the mental issues?

Does this mean that retarded people are less of human beings?
No. Not any more than Steven Hawking or Albert Einstien are more of human beings than I am.

There are no amino acids in DNA, there are 2 types of nucleotside bases (2 per type, for a total of 4). Adenine, Guanine, Thymine, Cytosine. Often shortened to A,T,G,C. A goes with T, G goes with C in properly based pair DNA.

yeah, okay, I forgot what exactly the code thingies were called. So sue me, my point is still valid.

DNA decided if you were human or not. yes, but my mind is the reason that I'm a person Your body is made up of organ systems. Those are comprised of organs. Those are made up of tissues, which are collections of cells. Cells are made up of 3 things: water, nutrients, and protiens. DNA is heavily involved in the making of protiens. Of course, removing a strand of dna from you won't make you unhuman because each of your trillion cells has many strands of DNA in them. You'll still have trillions of back-up copies. Indeed, I would agree that DNA is important, as the kidney, liver, heart, and blood are important. But none of these things make you a person. Your brain is what does the thinking and feeling. It is made up of protiens because it is an organ. A house could be made of bricks, but the bricks are not what makes it a house. Most of the brian is hard-wired to think, feel, and remember. It doesn't matter if you are that kid in the special ed classes or the person who makes the next great discovery, you are human. and in both cases, you are a person, deserving of all the rights of personhood. You have been human since your organs developed and you gained your sences. This is somewhere in the third and final stage of pregnancy because experiments and studies on dead and living fetuses at that stage proved that the fetus can feel pain at that point. This is why I'm against third trimester abortions. It can also think, but not as well as us because the size of its brain limits this capacity. It has to be small to be born without killing the mother. There are people who feel that babies aren't human. I'm not one of them. A baby is both a human and a person. There are those who feel that the mentally challenged or the Jewish or the black people aren't human. we call these people Nazis. Then there are those who don't have issues and consider those people human. Are you the racist or are you the one without the mental issues?
I must go for the latter category!

Thats like saying a virus has an IQ. a strand of DNA is not IQ.

uh...just from what you said right there I can tell you don't quite get the gist of what exactly DNA, chromosomes, and genes are all about...how they work and all that..

continuing the intelligence gene as an example:
there is a little gene on a chromosome that determines your intelligence level...this is fact.
It doesn't mean that a kid's gonna be bad at school or good at school, but it's more about if a person has a higher aptitude for learning or not.
This is really where nature vs. nurture comes in.
A person can be genetically intelligent but have terrible work ethics and never amount to anything in their life. Alternatively, a person can be of a lower intelligence genetically but was taught to work hard and put all their time and effort in and rise to the top.
So, no, just because you are genetically intelligent or unintelligent doesn't mean that's just how you are going to be as a person...but when you get down to the base of it...you still have that pre-determined aptitude to learn things easily or not.
Simply the fact that a person with a genetic lower-intelligence has to work harder to succeed determines part of who they are as a person.

I belive that the environment in which a person is raised can overcome many things that were given to a person through genetics, but that doesn't change the fact that genetics dictate a lot of what makes up a person.

I agree with the thread starter more than the Catholic church, however if you are sentient and do not have human DNA you are not human, you are a sentient being, but not human. I think we need thought and DNA to be really an 'alive' human.
What about transplants from other animals? And if your body slowly got replaced by robot parts until you become a humanhead on a cyborg. And what if your brai gets replaced with a dogs brain but your body stays the same? by some mirical thats acomplished. what then?

Hey what would happen if we took to kids and gave them the same education? Only one had a highier Itellengence limit. Who would be smarter?
And why are you giving me one time sititions?Einstein failed most of his classes. But because of his high intelligence level didn't need to be a straight A student. I can get my buddy who is a class clown and drinker and say, You must be a hidden genius?
Actually no, it takes even more than simply teaching children equally. They will, in theory, be just as smart. Infact the dumber one may display a higher IQ.
Reason?
You need to challange the brain. If you dont the mind doesnt know how to do things, the nerv endings die, the brian shrivles, comprehention is lost, etc. Feral children are a great example of this. Why cant they talk after they've been discovered after the the age of about 13? Because their brain has actually shriveled, they cant make connections, they dont have grammar. sure they may be able to say words but they cant form sentences.
And why do they have the mobile above baby's beds? to develop their debth perception. If they dont do this young they dont have that debth peception. experiments on cats have been done (stick a kity in box with vertical lines. take it out a few months later. it cant see horizontal lines).

Have you seen The Incredibles? Remember at the begining that short movie clip that had nothing to do with the movie? Any way, babysitter was playing music, showing flash cards, things the baby couldnt possibly do. But she was challanging the baby further than its capabilities, that makes the child 'smarter' if you will, develops the 'connections' better.
:rolleyes:

I must sound like an arrogant bitch after this...
Whatever, basically your wrong here.

Jesus H Christ, please tell me that you've sensed the sarcasm in the post and were just neglecting to allude to it.
oh now i feel bad :( sry

So now young children are lesser beings... though I believe we should eat our children alive, the message you send is, ermm, disturbing.
yup. i dont find children to be as high as (smart mature) adults. I dont believe in 'children shoudl be seen and not heard'. i do feel that they should be encouraged in every way possible and a lot of our atteniton should be given to them. but i dont feel theyre as valuable for society. I meant hey are, of course, but for the immidiate 'gratification' for society, you need a working force. Unless you believe in anarchy...
Im a cruel liberal I know.

DNA decided if you were human or not. Your body is made up of organ systems. Those are comprised of organs. Those are made up of tissues, which are collections of cells. Cells are made up of 3 things: water, nutrients, and protiens. DNA is heavily involved in the making of protiens. Of course, removing a strand of dna from you won't make you unhuman because each of your trillion cells has many strands of DNA in them. You'll still have trillions of back-up copies. Your brain is what does the thinking and feeling. It is made up of protiens because it is an organ. Most of the brian is hard-wired to think, feel, and remember. It doesn't matter if you are that kid in the special ed classes or the person who makes the next great discovery, you are human. You have been human since your organs developed and you gained your sences. This is somewhere in the third and final stage of pregnancy because experiments and studies on dead and living fetuses at that stage proved that the fetus can feel pain at that point. It can also think, but not as well as us because the size of its brain limits this capacity. It has to be small to be born without killing the mother. There are people who feel that babies aren't human. There are those who feel that the mentally challenged or the Jewish or the black people aren't human. Then there are those who don't have issues and consider those people human. Are you the racist or are you the one without the mental issues?

Are you calling me a racist? Or perhpas a mental problem?

And I dont know who your biology teacher is but didnt they leave out carbohydrates and lipids? :rolleyes:

and i pose this questiont o you (why dont people read some of the thread before ranting?) if you replace the entire human body and stick a head on a robot is that a human? And what if you replace the head of a human with that of a dog? is that human?

DNA does NOT make you a person


Yeah, it does. It just takes 7-9 months for it to happen.

uh...just from what you said right there I can tell you don't quite get the gist of what exactly DNA, chromosomes, and genes are all about...how they work and all that..
I assure you I do. I was oversimplifying your poor annalogy

[/quote]continuing the intelligence gene as an example:
there is a little gene on a chromosome that determines your intelligence level...this is fact.[/quote]
link me
It doesn't mean that a kid's gonna be bad at school or good at school, but it's more about if a person has a higher aptitude for learning or not.
This is really where nature vs. nurture comes in.
A person can be genetically intelligent but have terrible work ethics and never amount to anything in their life. Alternatively, a person can be of a lower intelligence genetically but was taught to work hard and put all their time and effort in and rise to the top.
What is the point of stating this? Its like your telling the flowe that its a flower...its common knowledge.

So, no, just because you are genetically intelligent or unintelligent doesn't mean that's just how you are going to be as a person...but when you get down to the base of it...you still have that pre-determined aptitude to learn things easily or not.
Once again, link me. I cannot say if I believe this so far or not, i can see it happening, but for some reason i think its more white-mans propiganda.

Simply the fact that a person with a genetic lower-intelligence has to work harder to succeed determines part of who they are as a person.
You havent been a parent have you. Each child prepares for things at different times, its not just working hard, its tollerance and attention span. If you teacha child something too early or too late they may hate it and thus refuse it for the rest of hteir life. Theres a very strong theory cirulating in the Ontario Education office about segregating boys and girls because they learn different things better at different times. Of course a segregation will never happen, but its good to have the idea out there.

I belive that the environment in which a person is raised can overcome many things that were given to a person through genetics, but that doesn't change the fact that genetics dictate a lot of what makes up a person.
nature vs nurture. its hard to argue either side. i dont think you should even touch appon it, you wont get very far. and our knowledge (as humans) on the subject is so minute that even if one party could prove their point to another it could very well be wrong.