NationStates Jolt Archive

Yes. It's true. Wheat production is responsible for the death of more animals than the meat industry. Let me explain:

Any plant that grows on stems, including wheat, soybeans, and others, is harvested with something called a combine. What a combine does, is it moves through the fields, chopping wheat stems at ground level.

Look here: http://images.google.com/images?q=wheat%20combine&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&sa=N&tab=wi

It does this with rotating blades that move at ground level. Each year, trillions of rabbits, groundhogs, moles, voles, birds, snakes, and other animals are chopped to death, their bodies torn asunder and then crushed as these massive combines harvest wheat. It's an extremly frightening and painfull death, because the wheat combines are so wide, that the animals can hear them coming, but can't get away before the combine chops the poor creatures to death.

Therefore, I, a hunter, and a meat eater, do far less harm to animals then vegans, who must eat large amounts of soy products in order to consume a healthy amount of protein, thereby causing significant pain, and a horrifying death to animals that they won't even eat.

Our animals die humanely, and so we can eat them. Your animals die inhumanely, you don't even bother to do anything with the meat, and you kill far more of them.

Thus, veganism is inherently hypocritical.

Sources: http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com/animalrights/leastharm.htm

Yes. It's true. Wheat production is responsible for the death of more animals than the meat industry. Let me explain:

Any plant that grows on stems, including wheat, soybeans, and others, is harvested with something called a combine. What a combine does, is it moves through the fields, chopping wheat stems at ground level.

Look here: http://images.google.com/images?q=wheat%20combine&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&sa=N&tab=wi

It does this with rotating blades that move at ground level. Each year, trillions of rabbits, groundhogs, moles, voles, birds, snakes, and other animals are chopped to death, their bodies torn asunder and then crushed as these massive combines harvest wheat. It's an extremly frightening and painfull death, because the wheat combines are so wide, that the animals can hear them coming, but can't get away before the combine chops the poor creatures to death.

Therefore, I, a hunter, and a meat eater, do far less harm to animals then vegans, who must eat large amounts of soy products in order to consume a healthy amount of protein, thereby causing significant pain, and a horrifying death to animals that they won't even eat.

Our animals die humanely, and so we can eat them. Your animals die inhumanely, you don't even bother to do anything with the meat, and you kill far more of them.

Thus, veganism is inherently hypocritical.

Sources: http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com/animalrights/leastharm.htm

I like how you think.

Why, thank you! :D

Good stuff.

Didn't I post on this issue not an hour ago?

http://maddox.xmission.com/grill.html

http://maddox.xmission.com/hatemail.cgi

You. Fucking. Rock. Way to give it to those damn hippies!

love your thinking.. u should have put that in my thread "What up with Vegs".. could have solved some problems and put some vegans in their places.

Didn't I post on this issue not an hour ago?

maddox.xmission.com/grill.html

maddox.xmission.com/hatemail.cgi

... I just did a search. This is the same thread, sans stupidity.

[QUOTE=The Isle of SkyeOur animals die humanely, and so we can eat them. Your animals die inhumanely, you don't even bother to do anything with the meat, and you kill far more of them.

Thus, veganism is inherently hypocritical.

QUOTE]

Only if you're vegan/vegitarian because you think it's cruel to kill animals for meat. There are other reasons that most people bypass, *sighs*

I would like to send along words of praise to you. I had never even thought about that aspect before. I am a very liberal member of the ASPCA who loves animals and would like to prevent harm to them in any way possible. Often I have considered veganism (or at the least vegetarianism). This has made me rethink what I would have to do in order to make sure no animals are harmed. And my solution, everyone produces their own food in little gardens in their back yards, if you have no yard...starve? In any case, good job with this one.

[QUOTE=The Isle of SkyeOur animals die humanely, and so we can eat them. Your animals die inhumanely, you don't even bother to do anything with the meat, and you kill far more of them.

Thus, veganism is inherently hypocritical.

QUOTE]

Only if you're vegan/vegitarian because you think it's cruel to kill animals for meat. There are other reasons that most people bypass, *sighs*

What are those reasons? I'd love to discuss them.

It dosen't take too much land to make ones own garden. The time to tend to it is the problem.

Where do you think the grain used to feed the animals comes from? It comes from the same place -- wheat fields. And an animal slaghtered for a hamburger uses up a huge amount more of that grain than a tofuburger. Meat just isn't an efficient form of energy transmission.

I have nothing against the basic concept; people can eat what they want. But before you accuse someone else of hypocrisy, be sure you have your facts right.

I would like to send along words of praise to you. I had never even thought about that aspect before. I am a very liberal member of the ASPCA who loves animals and would like to prevent harm to them in any way possible. Often I have considered veganism (or at the least vegetarianism). This has made me rethink what I would have to do in order to make sure no animals are harmed. And my solution, everyone produces their own food in little gardens in their back yards, if you have no yard...starve? In any case, good job with this one.

Actually, if you read the article: Beef production is very humane, and cows are very very unintelligent creatures.

So very true! People Eating Tasty Animals (http://www.tednugent.com/about_tnusa/hunters_hungry.shtml) forever!

[QUOTE=Tiauha]

What are those reasons? I'd love to discuss them.


Probably religious?

Maybe because they don't like the taste of meat?

[QUOTE=Tiauha]

What are those reasons? I'd love to discuss them.

Why I'm vegetarian? I don't like the taste of meat. *cough* If you come up for a reason against that I'll be amazed, oh wait people already say I'm too picky, oh well....

thats aweful - but do you actually think that most vegetarians (the ones who are vegetarian because they care abot animals) even know about this? The answer is no as I have never heard about this before, and I dont see where you get yoru information from because your last link doesnt even work. So no we aren't hypocrits at all. IF this is true then I would definitely like to look for ways to stop it. Got any sources for information on this?

Where do you think the grain used to feed the animals comes from? It comes from the same place -- wheat fields. And an animal slaghtered for a hamburger uses up a huge amount more of that grain than a tofuburger. Meat just isn't an efficient form of energy transmission.

I have nothing against the basic concept; people can eat what they want. But before you accuse someone else of hypocrisy, be sure you have your facts right.

While grain is used as feed: it's an entirely different TYPE of grain. It's everything that is left over from wheat production that wasn't suitable for human consumption. It's a Bi-product of the grain that humans eat.

So actually, that grain, were it not used as feed, would be burned. Instead, it's fed to cows, horses, pigs, and other animals. But if we stop eating those animals, we'd be consuming more wheat, a majority of which is not suitable for human consumption. We'd have to increase grain production in order to feed all the humans that aren't being fed meat. So more animals would die.

But you'd know that if you read the article.

[QUOTE=The Isle of Skye]

Why I'm vegetarian? I don't like the taste of meat. *cough* If you come up for a reason against that I'll be amazed, oh wait people already say I'm too picky, oh well....

My g/f is the same way. I have never cared what people eat or didn't eat, I just hate it when someone shoves thier sence of morality or false statements to "convert" someone.

[QUOTE=Tiauha]

What are those reasons? I'd love to discuss them.
health, religion, etc.

Where do you think the grain used to feed the animals comes from? It comes from the same place -- wheat fields. And an animal slaghtered for a hamburger uses up a huge amount more of that grain than a tofuburger. Meat just isn't an efficient form of energy transmission.

I have nothing against the basic concept; people can eat what they want. But before you accuse someone else of hypocrisy, be sure you have your facts right.
irrelevant. he doesnt care about killing animals. hypothetically he could be a meat-eater who wants to kill as many animals as possible. its the vegetarians who want to save the animals. thus they are hypocritical because they are the only ones going against their values.

[QUOTE=Tiauha]

My g/f is the same way. I have never cared what people eat or didn't eat, I just hate it when someone shoves thier sence of morality or false statements to "convert" someone.


which is of course why there are so many anti-meat eater threads on this forum right?

who is pushign their morality in yoru face exactly? ALl I see is a bunch of hateful meat-eaters who have a problem with vegetarians for some reason.

[QUOTE=The Isle of Skye]


Probably religious?

Maybe because they don't like the taste of meat?
I can't eat meat, as I stated more in-depth on the "Whats up with Vegs" board, because my stomach is no longer capable of digesting meat. It has trouble with fish and sea creatures, so I'm limited to occasionally crab (which I love), and if I really wanted to, which I don't, I could eat turkey. But I think turkey's gross.

I liked meat when I could eat it. I liked veggies too, but it just seemed so obvious in American culture to eat meat. Since the health issues have come up, however, it's completely torn my basic structure of living. It's hard to go out to eat with your family, or on a date, and order salad merely because the place they've chosen doesn't have any non-meat alternative. Only recently has Burger King started using meat alternative when requested for their burgers, and I praise them for it because now I still have a chance to grab something "on the run" that I actually CAN eat in the car, unlike a salad or something.

There are many reasons other than just religious and animal-loving to not eat meat. While my condition, especially to the extent that I suffer when I eat meat, is pretty rare, it's also genetically linked. My children will probably have to be raised with a great appreciation for vegetarian ways, should they have the same problem as I. My husband will have to adapt to my diet, or else get used to us always eating different meals at possibly different times.

Maybe those of you who can still eat meat should consider that not all vegetarians are doing it to "save the animals".

thats aweful - but do you actually think that most vegetarians (the ones who are vegetarian because they care abot animals) even know about this? The answer is no as I have never heard about this before, and I dont see where you get yoru information from because your last link doesnt even work. So no we aren't hypocrits at all. IF this is true then I would definitely like to look for ways to stop it. Got any sources for information on this?
just because your too lazy to do a .20 second google search (yes thats the real number) doesnt meant the information doesn't exist
try this one maddox.xmission.com/grill.html

thats aweful - but do you actually think that most vegetarians (the ones who are vegetarian because they care abot animals) even know about this? The answer is no as I have never heard about this before, and I dont see where you get yoru information from because your last link doesnt even work. So no we aren't hypocrits at all. IF this is true then I would definitely like to look for ways to stop it. Got any sources for information on this?
Sources? Has anyone on this forum left the "big city" and visited a farm? I have. Driven a tractor and "rustled" a few cows (from Texas, remember?). Just walking through wheat fields you'll kick a mouse. That’s where they live.

On a side note, I think some people give cows a lot more credit than they are due. They are really just stupid animals. For the most part, they feel very little pain. Most "murder" is done with a bullet between the eyes. Quick, painless. Probably don't know what hit them.

[QUOTE=Mt-Tau]


which is of course why there are so many anti-meat eater threads on this forum right?

who is pushign their morality in yoru face exactly? ALl I see is a bunch of hateful meat-eaters who have a problem with vegetarians for some reason.
see maddox.xmission.com/grill.html

lol yep I'm lazy alright.

got anything besides Maddox? I',m not sure he has much credibility. I'm sure animals die because of those monstrosities but are there actual facts to back up the numbers?

[QUOTE=Mt-Tau]


which is of course why there are so many anti-meat eater threads on this forum right?

who is pushign their morality in yoru face exactly? ALl I see is a bunch of hateful meat-eaters who have a problem with vegetarians for some reason.

First one I had seen was against peta, a hypocritical organization selling veganism as the only way while owning shares in a steakhouse.

The second and third was being anti-veg.

and still even if true - that doesnt make vegetarians hypocrits. Many Vegetarians dont eat vegetable knowing that animals are dying. They eat them thinking that they are saving animals from suffering. Also I'm sure vegetarians who are against killing animals for any reason would be against this too and strive to stop it if they could.

lol yep I'm lazy alright.

got anything besides Maddox? I',m not sure he has much credibility. I'm sure animals die because of those monstrosities but are there actual facts to back up the numbers?
well if you weren't to lazy to read the entire article, youll see he gives a source from an INDEPENDENT UNBIASED SOURCE.

and still even if true - that doesnt make vegetarians hypocrits. Many Vegetarians dont eat vegetable knowing that animals are dying. They eat them thinking that they are saving animals from suffering. Also I'm sure vegetarians who are against killing animals for any reason would be against this too and strive to stop it if they could.
again, see maddox.xmission.com/grill.html
an animal being ripped to shreds while still alive is stopping suffering? id much prefer getting a quick spike to the neck than THAT.

This does, however, make the "PETA" vegetarians hypocrits, but they were like that anyways.

well if you weren't to lazy to read the entire article, youll see he gives a source from an INDEPENDENT UNBIASED SOURCE.


yeah I finally scanned pased all the hate filled dribble and saw it. well then, theres something we shoudl look into stopping.

and still even if true - that doesnt make vegetarians hypocrits. Many Vegetarians dont eat vegetable knowing that animals are dying. They eat them thinking that they are saving animals from suffering. Also I'm sure vegetarians who are against killing animals for any reason would be against this too and strive to stop it if they could.
Yes. Actually, it does.

hy·poc·ri·sy (h-pkr-s) KEY
NOUN:
pl. hy·poc·ri·sies

1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.
2. An act or instance of such falseness.

saving animals from suffering
...while "the animals" contiune to suffer.

yeah I finally scanned pased all the hate filled dribble and saw it. well then, theres something we shoudl look into stopping.
well if you take the time to read the whole long ONE PAGE article, youll see that he's being an asshole because people are trying to force their morals onto him, when in fact they are in violation of the very morals which they uphold.

again, see maddox.xmission.com/grill.html
an animal being ripped to shreds while still alive is stopping suffering? id much prefer getting a quick spike to the neck than THAT.

:rolleyes: AGAIN, once any vegetarian (against the siffering of animals) finds this out, they will do what they can to stop the death/suffering of these animals. Still doesnt make them hyporits. I grow what I can at home and buy what I cant at the store. I would be happiest living on a farm and growing my own completely but it isnt feasable at this point in time.

Yes. Actually, it does.

hy·poc·ri·sy (h-pkr-s) KEY
NOUN:
pl. hy·poc·ri·sies

1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.
2. An act or instance of such falseness.


...while "the animals" contiune to suffer.

okay - although I think you are completely missing the point or tryign really hard to miss the point - what are vegetarians supposed to do to stop being hypocrites in your eyes?

okay - although I think you are completely missing the point or tryign really hard to miss the point - what are vegetarians supposed to do to stop being hypocrites in your eyes?

I think the general consensus is that in order for them to stop being hypocrites, they need to stop accosting meat-eaters as murderers of animals. If they don't want to eat meat for the animals' sake, that is fine, but until they are doing everything in their power to prevent more animal suffering (and there is a LOT more that can be done than simply not eating meat), then they have no right to condemn others.

well if you take the time to read the whole long ONE PAGE article, youll see that he's being an asshole because people are trying to force their morals onto him, when in fact they are in violation of the very morals which they uphold.

yeah I really want to read thru a long ass article that calls vegetarians retarded pompous bastards. one can only take so much verbal abuse before they stop listening/reading. its not worth my time if someone cannot be civil.

:rolleyes: AGAIN, once any vegetarian (against the siffering of animals) finds this out, they will do what they can to stop the death/suffering of these animals. Still doesnt make them hyporits.
I don't think you are the "them" the people on this forum have a problem with. There are a "them" (PETA) who choose to ignore such facts to promote a political agenda. Those who choose vegetarianism/veganism for political reasons or because they feel better about themselves and not because they have any real reason or facts to back it up. This majority is the "them" of the previous hypocrisy statement.

While we're damning both meat-eaters and vegetarians for reasons we'll never all agree on, can we please spell "hypocrite" correctly?

I don't mind the vegetarians lumping me into their lovey-dovey "save the animals" category any more than I mind the meat-eaters assuming that just because I'm a vegetarian, I'm one of them. I do mind the fact that everybody seems to be CONFUSING "vegetarian" and "vegan". Vegans are like the militant extreme of vegetarianism. I even find some of their practices to be hypocritical. Now, as the string is called VEGAN hypocrisy, can we stick to vegan topics and leave us level-headed vegetarians out of it?

I think the general consensus is that in order for them to stop being hypocrites, they need to stop accosting meat-eaters as murderers of animals. If they don't want to eat meat for the animals' sake, that is fine, but until they are doing everything in their power to prevent more animal suffering (and there is a LOT more that can be done than simply not eating meat), then they have no right to condemn others.

there are many vegetarians just on this board and I dont see a single thread condemning meat eaters. havent seen once in teh years I have been on this board. although I have seen many attackign vegetarians.

I dont know about you but it doesnt look to me like you are being accosted. out in the the rest of the world. I dont see anyone on street corners tryign to convert anyone as Maddox suggests. I dont see commercials against emat eaters. I never received a single mailing that was against meat eating/. where are you being accosted actually?

I get flak ALL TEH TIME from meat eaters when they find out I am vegetarian and its pretty annoying but I maintain civility. I have never once tried to convert anyone to vegetarianism and neither has ANY of the vegetarians I know.

There are those out there like PETA and such I know but it is far from prevalent in our society to attract this much negativity towardds us. This just looks like a silly little witch hunt to me.

okay - although I think you are completely missing the point or tryign really hard to miss the point - what are vegetarians supposed to do to stop being hypocrites in your eyes?
I think the point is pretty clear. Most political vegetarians claim to be vegetarian because they want to stop the suffering or some crap. While they chew on their wheat sticks, millions of animals are being killed. This is blatant hypocrisy. To remove themselves from hypocrisy, they must do everything they can to "stop the suffering." This means, basically, grow your own food. Or be there when the food is harvested (with a scythe, I assume) to be sure that no little mouse is stepped on in the process. That would remove a political vegetarian from hypocrisy. I am pretty sure that there aren't any that do that. If they feel comfortable living in hypocrisy, I guess that’s fine.

there are many vegetarians just on this board and I dont see a single thread condemning meat eaters. havent seen once in teh years I have been on this board. although I have seen many attackign vegetarians.

I dont know about you but it doesnt look to me like you are being accosted. out in the the rest of the world. I dont see anyone on street corners tryign to convert anyone as Maddox suggests. I dont see commercials against emat eaters. I never received a single mailing that was against meat eating/. where are you being accosted actually?

I get flak ALL TEH TIME from meat eaters when they find out I am vegetarian and its pretty annoying but I maintain civility. I have never once tried to convert anyone to vegetarianism and neither has ANY of the vegetarians I know.

There are those out there like PETA and such I know but it is far from prevalent in our society to attract this much negativity towardds us. This just looks like a silly little witch hunt to me.

I have actually been spraypainted by protestors for wearing a leather jacket in Boston, thank you. I don't know if they were PETA, though.

And the fact that you haven't seen a single thread attacking meat eaters just means that you haven't been looking hard enough.

Does anyone have any articles on the "Got Beer?" campaign PETA ran on college campuses a few years ago?

I have actually been spraypainted by protestors for wearing a leather jacket in Boston, thank you. I don't know if they were PETA, though.

And the fact that you haven't seen a single thread attacking meat eaters just means that you haven't been looking hard enough.

Does anyone have any articles on the "Got Beer?" campaign PETA ran on college campuses a few years ago?

well find me the thread and I will concede that point. I've been around a while and if there was a thread attackign meat eaters I would defend the meat eaters.

those loons that got you in boston shoudl be knocked on their ass. I've never seen anything like this or known anyone so fanatical about vegetarianism or veganism.

I have actually been spraypainted by protestors for wearing a leather jacket in Boston, thank you. I don't know if they were PETA, though.


I hope you got medievial on their hippy ass for that.

I have actually been spraypainted by protestors for wearing a leather jacket in Boston, thank you. I don't know if they were PETA, though.
You should've sued them, then. And usually PETA's more responsible for the blood-bathing, if I remember right.....

Then again, Kansas City, where I've lived all my life, doesn't have a lot of PETA activity....

well find me the thread and I will concede that point. I've been around a while and if there was a thread attackign meat eaters I would defend the meat eaters.

those loons that got you in boston shoudl be knocked on their ass. I've never seen anything like this or known anyone so fanatical about vegetarianism or veganism.

To be fair, I think that it would be fairly transparent that any accusations like these are primarily directed towards the extremists like the jerks that ruined my leather jacket. Unfortunately, any cause gets groups with the loudest and most violent minority. Muslim terrorists, abortion doctor murderers, etc., etc.

Look. We all know this guy probably got this idea (and all the information) from Maddox. Can we just let it go? It's a dead horse (heh, heh.) Do we really, really need to go around in circles? Again?

Simonist']You should've sued them, then. And usually PETA's more responsible for the blood-bathing, if I remember right.....

Then again, Kansas City, where I've lived all my life, doesn't have a lot of PETA activity....

It was a piss ass $40 leather jacket. A piece of crap.

I hope you got medievial on their hippy ass for that.

The cops hauled the girl away pretty quickly after she nailed me.

:( PETA gives all us vegetarians a bad name.

I think the point is pretty clear. Most political vegetarians claim to be vegetarian because they want to stop the suffering or some crap. While they chew on their wheat sticks, millions of animals are being killed. This is blatant hypocrisy. To remove themselves from hypocrisy, they must do everything they can to "stop the suffering." This means, basically, grow your own food. Or be there when the food is harvested (with a scythe, I assume) to be sure that no little mouse is stepped on in the process. That would remove a political vegetarian from hypocrisy. I am pretty sure that there aren't any that do that. If they feel comfortable living in hypocrisy, I guess that’s fine.


if they give up eating animals to stop the suffering then they have stopped as much suffering as they could (besides growing their own which I do in my limited space along with vegetarian friends). how do you know there is not a campaign to stop the killing of animals during wheat/soy/whatever harvests? if it's known to exist I's sure someone is fighting against it. In our society of high priced over populated land its kinda hard to have yrou own farm if you dont have the money. sometimes we can only do so much.

well find me the thread and I will concede that point. I've been around a while and if there was a thread attackign meat eaters I would defend the meat eaters.

those loons that got you in boston shoudl be knocked on their ass. I've never seen anything like this or known anyone so fanatical about vegetarianism or veganism.

This is what we are speaking of Sumamba.

We hear of things such as people splashing fake blood all over fur wearers, or people who go into fast food places. I have seen a post on peta2 of someone bragging that they stuck a load of stickers all over fur coats at a local mall. Not to mention this chickenshit stuff of calling pets "companion animals". Spreading mis-information. Entering restaraunts and harassing patrons. Harassing CEO's and execs of various company's targeted by them. ETC. I can go on and on.

This is what has been done to meat eater's by vegans. Now, I am sorry you are catching hell from people because of these assholes, but now you can atleast understand where we are coming from.

:( PETA gives all us vegetarians a bad name.

got that right

suddenly all vegetarians are hypocrites because of a few extreemist jerks.

I understand now that he is merely talkign about the politivegans, but if that isn't spelled out right away of course I am going to take offense.

If I started a thread about how Christians are hypocrites because they blow up abortion clinics and whatnot, it's going to get a bunch of Christians being offended and rightly so.

This is what we are speaking of Sumamba.

We hear of things such as people splashing fake blood all over fur wearers, or people who go into fast food places. I have seen a post on peta2 of someone bragging that they stuck a load of stickers all over fur coats at a local mall. Not to mention this chickenshit stuff of calling pets "companion animals". Spreading mis-information. Entering restaraunts and harassing patrons. Harassing CEO's and execs of various company's targeted by them. ETC. I can go on and on.

This is what has been done to meat eater's by vegans. Now, I am sorry you are catching hell from people because of these assholes, but now you can atleast understand where we are coming from.

I understand and hate those dicks too, but see my last post. This isn't clarified in the initial posts of the two anti-vegetarian threads curently on the first page.

if they give up eating animals to stop the suffering then they have stopped as much suffering as they could (besides growing their own which I do in my limited space along with vegetarian friends). how do you know there is not a campaign to stop the killing of animals during wheat/soy/whatever harvests? if it's known to exist I's sure someone is fighting against it. In our society of high priced over populated land its kinda hard to have yrou own farm if you dont have the money. sometimes we can only do so much.
Agreed, there is only so much they can do. But again, they aren't doing everything they can. This constitutes hypocrisy. Do you live in America? I guess in England or Europe space may be hard to come by, but in the Midwest there are acres and acres of land that I'm sure someone will let them have if they really wanted to "stop the suffering." I've driven for hours and seen nothing but farmland. There is really more than enough to go around. It is only on the coasts that there is a problem with "over populated land."

The point stands that a political vegetarian/vegan has chosen to "limit the suffering" while suffering still occurs for their consumption.

If cows were the one's with the opposable thumbs, large brains and tools, then they'd be eatin' us.

I understand and hate those dicks too, but see my last post. This isn't clarified in the initial posts of the two anti-vegetarian threads curently on the first page.

Gotya. :)

great link for all those animal rights activists...

click here (http://www.addictinggames.com/kittencannon.html)

Agreed, there is only so much they can do. But again, they aren't doing everything they can. This constitutes hypocrisy. Do you live in America? I guess in England or Europe space may be hard to come by, but in the Midwest there are acres and acres of land that I'm sure someone will let them have if they really wanted to "stop the suffering." I've driven for hours and seen nothing but farmland. There is really more than enough to go around. It is only on the coasts that there is a problem with "over populated land."

Some may not be doing everything they know they can but many are... so yes SOME are hypocrites. Do you have any agendas? Are you doing everything you possibly can to make sure all your agendas are met? And I mean everything, not just stuff you know you can do. I think you see my point. I am sure that most vegetarians are doing everythign they know they can do to limit the suffering of animals if that is indeed why they are vegetarians.

[QUOTE=Tiauha]

What are those reasons? I'd love to discuss them.

I am a lacto-vegan because I do not like the texture of meat. It just has a funny feel to me. For that reason, I also do not eat 'veggie-burgers' or the vegan 'meat' products. I also just don't like the idea of eating something that used to walk around, it just kind of creeps me out and realize how futile life is and that we're all going to die. At least with plants they don't seem to be as alive.

Some may not be doing everything they know they can but many are... so yes SOME are hypocrites. Do you have any agendas? Are you doing everything you possibly can to make sure all your agendas are met? And I mean everything, not just stuff you know you can do. I think you see my point. I am sure that most vegetarians are doing everythign they know they can do to limit the suffering of animals if that is indeed why they are vegetarians.
I have a few agendas. Nothing I feel strongly about. I don't mean to attack you personally. Most of my rant is targeted at the PETA types, the extremely vocal, paint and blood smearing type, the ones who attack restaurants and chant in the streets about suffering. These people obviously feel strongly about vegetarianism, and as such should be doing everything they can to "limit the suffering." It seems strangely hypocritical to protest and smear paint on someone for wearing fur, while at the same time eating food that caused the death of millions of animals. I concede that there may be some things I am hypocritical about. These are things I don't feel strongly about. If I felt strongly enough to protest and splatter blood on your food, then I would certainly back up my own lifestyle before I attack yours.

Anyone have a link to an article about how plants feel pain and scream?

What was it.. carrots that have the chemical 'scream' they do?

Technically, as far as plants are concerned, we should only be eating their fruit. They make it all bulbous and soft for a reason.

Never mind, found it: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-2-285331-2,00.html

Creepy stuff, proving that anyone who eats plants or prunes flowers is a monster.

[QUOTE=The Isle of Skye]

I am a lacto-vegan because I do not like the texture of meat. It just has a funny feel to me. For that reason, I also do not eat 'veggie-burgers' or the vegan 'meat' products. I also just don't like the idea of eating something that used to walk around, it just kind of creeps me out and realize how futile life is and that we're all going to die. At least with plants they don't seem to be as alive.
"Yeah, at least the meat that I'm eating is dead when I eat it, what you're eating, that apple there, well...you're eating that aaaallllivvveeeeee!"

Corn is harvested in the same way as wheat (with a combine). Most corn that is farmed goes to feed cattle. I'm also not so sure that cattle only get what is "thrown away" from wheat. I don't see why farms would only base their decision on the amount of wheat sold for human consumption and not for cattle.

[QUOTE=The Great Mistland]
"Yeah, at least the meat that I'm eating is dead when I eat it, what you're eating, that apple there, well...you're eating that aaaallllivvveeeeee!"

What's worse, they've been selling butter lettuce that's actively kept alive in the store, and advertise it as such.

We should go back to just eating carolina rice, grown by slaves. That is cruelty free. (Apart from the slave bit).

[QUOTE=Andaluciae]

What's worse, they've been selling butter lettuce that's actively kept alive in the store, and advertise it as such.
OMG!!!!!!!!!

Clearly, Soylent green is the ONLY answer.

The best solution for those who want to stop the suffering of animals is Soylent Green or an equivilant product.

For those who can't eat mean or just don't like it, more power to you.

Yes. It's true. Wheat production is responsible for the death of more animals than the meat industry. Let me explain:

Any plant that grows on stems, including wheat, soybeans, and others, is harvested with something called a combine. What a combine does, is it moves through the fields, chopping wheat stems at ground level.

Look here: http://images.google.com/images?q=wheat%20combine&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&sa=N&tab=wi

It does this with rotating blades that move at ground level. Each year, trillions of rabbits, groundhogs, moles, voles, birds, snakes, and other animals are chopped to death, their bodies torn asunder and then crushed as these massive combines harvest wheat. It's an extremly frightening and painfull death, because the wheat combines are so wide, that the animals can hear them coming, but can't get away before the combine chops the poor creatures to death.

Care to actually post some evidence instead of this vague supposition?

Yes. It's true. Wheat production is responsible for the death of more animals than the meat industry. Let me explain:

Any plant that grows on stems, including wheat, soybeans, and others, is harvested with something called a combine. What a combine does, is it moves through the fields, chopping wheat stems at ground level.

Look here: http://images.google.com/images?q=wheat%20combine&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&sa=N&tab=wi

It does this with rotating blades that move at ground level. Each year, trillions of rabbits, groundhogs, moles, voles, birds, snakes, and other animals are chopped to death, their bodies torn asunder and then crushed as these massive combines harvest wheat. It's an extremly frightening and painfull death, because the wheat combines are so wide, that the animals can hear them coming, but can't get away before the combine chops the poor creatures to death.

Therefore, I, a hunter, and a meat eater, do far less harm to animals then vegans, who must eat large amounts of soy products in order to consume a healthy amount of protein, thereby causing significant pain, and a horrifying death to animals that they won't even eat.

Our animals die humanely, and so we can eat them. Your animals die inhumanely, you don't even bother to do anything with the meat, and you kill far more of them.

Thus, veganism is inherently hypocritical.

Sources: http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com/animalrights/leastharm.htm
How do you justify blaming grains for that?

Here's the way I see it: Eating meat will keep these animals alive. If we stop eating beef for example, what are the ranchers supposed to do with the cattle? They cant keep them, obviously and if they released them into the wild, the cows would die by winter, or become competition for the natural herbivors. The cattle would be killed off en mass with only a few left in zoos. Vegans will be the cause of wholesale slaughter of these animals if they got their way

Here's the way I see it: Eating meat will keep these animals alive. If we stop eating beef for example, what are the ranchers supposed to do with the cattle? They cant keep them, obviously and if they released them into the wild, the cows would die by winter, or become competition for the natural herbivors. The cattle would be killed off en mass with only a few left in zoos. Vegans will be the cause of wholesale slaughter of these animals if they got their way

PETA has already proven they approve of this method.

:rolleyes: AGAIN, once any vegetarian (against the siffering of animals) finds this out, they will do what they can to stop the death/suffering of these animals. Still doesnt make them hyporits. I grow what I can at home and buy what I cant at the store. I would be happiest living on a farm and growing my own completely but it isnt feasable at this point in time.
thus making any animal rights advocate who doesnt grow their own food a hypocrite. i dont go as far as saying all vegetarians, just anyone who tries to tell other people that eating meat is wrong, like all of PETA.

okay - although I think you are completely missing the point or tryign really hard to miss the point - what are vegetarians supposed to do to stop being hypocrites in your eyes?
eat a fat juicy steak.

yeah I really want to read thru a long ass article that calls vegetarians retarded pompous bastards. one can only take so much verbal abuse before they stop listening/reading. its not worth my time if someone cannot be civil.
well if you bothered to read the article, you'd know that he DOESN'T DO THAT. perhaps you shouldn't judge something before you read it???? you know, the whole thing with the book and the cover?

Simonist']While we're damning both meat-eaters and vegetarians for reasons we'll never all agree on, can we please spell "hypocrite" correctly?

I don't mind the vegetarians lumping me into their lovey-dovey "save the animals" category any more than I mind the meat-eaters assuming that just because I'm a vegetarian, I'm one of them. I do mind the fact that everybody seems to be CONFUSING "vegetarian" and "vegan". Vegans are like the militant extreme of vegetarianism. I even find some of their practices to be hypocritical. Now, as the string is called VEGAN hypocrisy, can we stick to vegan topics and leave us level-headed vegetarians out of it?
the whole point is, neither of you are "level-headed" its all hypocrisy

does anyone really doubt that farming grain kills animals?

havent you ever killed a mouse or frog when mowing your yard? what do you think a combine going over 1000s of acres does? what about crop dusting? geez grow up.

why do you think our food has standards for bug and rodent parts if bugs and rodents werent being killed?

the only hypocrisy is from those people who make a big deal about having taken the moral high ground while the meat eaters wallow in death and destruction. this is quite a small minority of assholes (as has already been discussed)

everything we do results in some number of animal deaths. ever run over a bunny with your car? ever step on a worm on a wet sidewalk? ever breathe in a mosquito??

Wow what a fucked up argument.... first of all, TRILLIONS of animals are not killed by those machines, probably thousands, maybe millions... but not trillions.... Second.... WHEAT??? Do you not realize that wheat is not harvested for vegans only? Wheat is a staple in fucking EVERYONE'S diet.... I myself am a meat eater, but I think you should realize how awful your point is.

if they give up eating animals to stop the suffering then they have stopped as much suffering as they could (besides growing their own which I do in my limited space along with vegetarian friends). how do you know there is not a campaign to stop the killing of animals during wheat/soy/whatever harvests? if it's known to exist I's sure someone is fighting against it. In our society of high priced over populated land its kinda hard to have yrou own farm if you dont have the money. sometimes we can only do so much.
it has nothing to do with what you can or can not do. go to a library and learn how to gather food from the wild. kind of like what all our primitive ancestors did. then sell your house and go live in the wild eating berries.
why not do it? because its inconvenient. you are not willing to go out and go searching for berries because you like your life style. to preserve your comfortable life style, your attitude is so what if a few million animals are slaughtered. this is the same mentality that meat eaters have. only difference is that your morals are in direct contradiction with this mentality but ours are not

Some may not be doing everything they know they can but many are... so yes SOME are hypocrites. Do you have any agendas? Are you doing everything you possibly can to make sure all your agendas are met? And I mean everything, not just stuff you know you can do. I think you see my point. I am sure that most vegetarians are doing everythign they know they can do to limit the suffering of animals if that is indeed why they are vegetarians.
in the case of anyone who has been a political activists against meat eating, whethere it be splashing red paint on fur coats or handing out fliers, they are hypocrites. they tell us "stop killing animals!" but they are killing animals themselves. it would be like me torturing one person and protesting the Abu Ghraib prison scandal. "im only torturing one person, but they are torturing 20! those people are so immoral"

Care to actually post some evidence instead of this vague supposition?
http://maddox.xmission.com/grill.html#SOURCE

Wow what a fucked up argument.... first of all, TRILLIONS of animals are not killed by those machines, probably thousands, maybe millions... but not trillions.... Second.... WHEAT??? Do you not realize that wheat is not harvested for vegans only? Wheat is a staple in fucking EVERYONE'S diet.... I myself am a meat eater, but I think you should realize how awful your point is.
try reading your own post if you want to talk about awful points.
1. think about it, all this time, all this farming throughout human history, all those millions of square miles, not just the fuzzy bunnies but also the mosquitos and worms, and insects, etc.
2. true: it is a staple in everyones diet. false: meat eaters are protesting, handing out fliers, and pouring blood on people's fur coats because they kill animals by eating grains. true: grain eaters are doing all these things becasue people are killing animals when they eat meat

I think the general consensus is that in order for them to stop being hypocrites, they need to stop accosting meat-eaters as murderers of animals. If they don't want to eat meat for the animals' sake, that is fine, but until they are doing everything in their power to prevent more animal suffering (and there is a LOT more that can be done than simply not eating meat), then they have no right to condemn others.
Psh.

I dont' harass meat eaters in the least yet face continual harassment. Hell, want to sit down for a family dinner with my mother around? On average, the topic of "You shoudl eat meat" comes up three times in one meal. I've had friends who shoved their meat in my face, said I shoudl eat meat et c. Everytime I mention I don't eat meat (which is really something that's only obvious when I scan the menu for non-meat foods or excitedly wait for the veggie pizzas to come out at school functions) I get asked why. It gets rather annoying.

Psh.

I dont' harass meat eaters in the least yet face continual harassment. Hell, want to sit down for a family dinner with my mother around? On average, the topic of "You shoudl eat meat" comes up three times in one meal. I've had friends who shoved their meat in my face, said I shoudl eat meat et c. Everytime I mention I don't eat meat (which is really something that's only obvious when I scan the menu for non-meat foods or excitedly wait for the veggie pizzas to come out at school functions) I get asked why. It gets rather annoying.

It's because you're murdering more voles than you have to be!

Seriously though... I've never bothered to question anyone unless they've preached (I had a really weird chemistry teacher preach it in class once. I quickly noted that you have to take fricking pills to survive healthily as a vegan, and that eating meat in PROPER doses is quite healthy, which he had lied about in class, then admitted to when I pointed it out.)

Oh, wow. Someone eats like a gorilla and not like a chimp. WHOO. Like I care.

For the final time. When I say "level-headed", I mean those of us who don't say "My side is right" then refuse to even consider the other stance(s). I mean those who won't pick fights with the others about it. I'm a vegetarian against what would otherwise be my own choice -- I envy people who can eat meat. However, that doesn't mean that in ANY social situation I'd feel obligated to bring it up. The only time it's EVER been an issue for myself in the past years was the first time I had dinner at my boyfriend's house, and his parents served lamb with nothing else prepared. What they said was "Oh, we thought you meant you didn't eat beef."

Similarly, were I to still be able to eat meat, I can't imagine I'd be referring to any vegetarians or vegans as ill-informed or hypocrites or any of that nonsense. It's their choice. Just like it's somebody's choice to eat or not to eat processed sugar. What about all the people who swear off fast food? Should we put them in the Ignorant boat with vegetarians because they don't do what the rest of you want to consider "normal"? Or on the other hand, should those few environmentalist vegetarians start vandalising and harrassing businesses and people who use non-recycled paper, in the best interest of the planet?

Personally, I'm not understanding why I've been attacked. From the very start I refused to take a definite a side, being a vegetarian but on the side of the meat-eaters. All I pointed out was that not only were there a lot of spelling attrocities, but there seemed to be confusion as to the difference between vegetarians and vegans.

So then, Club House, get your fat head out of your ass, quit attacking people who haven't made any comments worthy of such, and maybe you'll realize there's more to it than just the black and white "I'm right, you're wrong" argument.

We'll be happy if you'd just start wearing leather.

:D

Of course, I'm not attacking you, so, heh, relax.

We'll be happy if you'd just start wearing leather.

:D

Of course, I'm not attacking you, so, heh, relax.
Once again, it's the VEGANS that don't wear leather, not the vegetarians.

Next point.

anyone who gives another person a hard time over their dietary choices is an asshole whether he is a vegan ranting against meat eaters or a meat eater screaming at a vegetarian that he should be eating meat.

i have never understood the reaction of (some) carnivores to vegetarians. why does it seem to be an affront that they choose to abstain from meat? other peoples choices shouldnt affect you one way or the other. its just a choice.

Simonist']For the final time. When I say "level-headed", I mean those of us who don't say "My side is right" then refuse to even consider the other stance(s). I mean those who won't pick fights with the others about it. I'm a vegetarian against what would otherwise be my own choice -- I envy people who can eat meat. However, that doesn't mean that in ANY social situation I'd feel obligated to bring it up. The only time it's EVER been an issue for myself in the past years was the first time I had dinner at my boyfriend's house, and his parents served lamb with nothing else prepared. What they said was "Oh, we thought you meant you didn't eat beef."

Similarly, were I to still be able to eat meat, I can't imagine I'd be referring to any vegetarians or vegans as ill-informed or hypocrites or any of that nonsense. It's their choice. Just like it's somebody's choice to eat or not to eat processed sugar. What about all the people who swear off fast food? Should we put them in the Ignorant boat with vegetarians because they don't do what the rest of you want to consider "normal"? Or on the other hand, should those few environmentalist vegetarians start vandalising and harrassing businesses and people who use non-recycled paper, in the best interest of the planet?

Personally, I'm not understanding why I've been attacked. From the very start I refused to take a definite a side, being a vegetarian but on the side of the meat-eaters. All I pointed out was that not only were there a lot of spelling attrocities, but there seemed to be confusion as to the difference between vegetarians and vegans.

So then, Club House, get your fat head out of your ass, quit attacking people who haven't made any comments worthy of such, and maybe you'll realize there's more to it than just the black and white "I'm right, you're wrong" argument.


So very few level heads in this world. U are teh smert. And yes, please grow up Club House. Maybe after you have lived a few years you will come to your senses.

Simonist']Once again, it's the VEGANS that don't wear leather, not the vegetarians.

Next point.

Yeah. But we want you to wear a vegan-skin coat.

Of course, technically, you are what you eat...

So it's just wearing a veggie.

It's because you're murdering more voles than you have to be!

Seriously though... I've never bothered to question anyone unless they've preached (I had a really weird chemistry teacher preach it in class once. I quickly noted that you have to take fricking pills to survive healthily as a vegan, and that eating meat in PROPER doses is quite healthy, which he had lied about in class, then admitted to when I pointed it out.)

Oh, wow. Someone eats like a gorilla and not like a chimp. WHOO. Like I care.
Yeah, I really don't care what other people eat and if I'm eating at your house, so long as you provide a non-meat side dish, then I'll be alright. Just don't shove it in my face or try to convicne me to eat your meat, I'm sure it's delicious to you, but I haven't eaten any for 5 years so there would probably be some digestion issues I don't want to deal with.

oh and I would just like to say:

4,000 posts baby yeah!
<---------------------

Matter is matter. Ingest it or don't.

So long as it's not anyone I know and care about, and there was no prolonged torture involved, none of my business.

Eat pig fetuses for all I care.

Mnnn, pig fetuses.

Where do you think the grain used to feed the animals comes from? It comes from the same place -- wheat fields. And an animal slaghtered for a hamburger uses up a huge amount more of that grain than a tofuburger. Meat just isn't an efficient form of energy transmission.

I have nothing against the basic concept; people can eat what they want. But before you accuse someone else of hypocrisy, be sure you have your facts right.

You can let animals eat the food from right where it grows and not have to kill animals inhumanely with those machines.

You can let animals eat the food from right where it grows and not have to kill animals inhumanely with those machines.
But if the ANIMALS eat the food "right where it grows", how will the humans ALSO eat the food? Your would-be solution is totally lose/lose.

Psh.

I dont' harass meat eaters in the least yet face continual harassment. Hell, want to sit down for a family dinner with my mother around? On average, the topic of "You shoudl eat meat" comes up three times in one meal. I've had friends who shoved their meat in my face, said I shoudl eat meat et c. Everytime I mention I don't eat meat (which is really something that's only obvious when I scan the menu for non-meat foods or excitedly wait for the veggie pizzas to come out at school functions) I get asked why. It gets rather annoying.

I know; I've seen it. My roommate is a vegetarian, and I've seen the weird looks from waiters when we're out to eat and she asks for a dish to be made without meat. I know people are not particularly kind to your choice of lifestyle. But I don't harrass vegetarians. And you don't harrass meat eaters. But neither of those facts change the fact that there are meat eaters who harrass vegetarians, and there are vegetarians who harrass meat eaters.

I know; I've seen it. My roommate is a vegetarian, and I've seen the weird looks from waiters when we're out to eat and she asks for a dish to be made without meat. I know people are not particularly kind to your choice of lifestyle. But I don't harrass vegetarians. And you don't harrass meat eaters. But neither of those facts change the fact that there are meat eaters who harrass vegetarians, and there are vegetarians who harrass meat eaters.

Yes, unfortunatly there are people like that. And also unfortunatly there are people who stereotype groups just because of the actions of a minority. When we gonna learn?

http://img51.echo.cx/img51/9930/wheatmeansmurder3dm.th.jpg (http://img51.echo.cx/my.php?image=wheatmeansmurder3dm.jpg)
Don't ask me why I spent ten minutes making that.

Yes. It's true. Wheat production is responsible for the death of more animals than the meat industry. Let me explain:

Any plant that grows on stems, including wheat, soybeans, and others, is harvested with something called a combine. What a combine does, is it moves through the fields, chopping wheat stems at ground level.

Look here: http://images.google.com/images?q=wheat%20combine&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&sa=N&tab=wi

It does this with rotating blades that move at ground level. Each year, trillions of rabbits, groundhogs, moles, voles, birds, snakes, and other animals are chopped to death, their bodies torn asunder and then crushed as these massive combines harvest wheat. It's an extremly frightening and painfull death, because the wheat combines are so wide, that the animals can hear them coming, but can't get away before the combine chops the poor creatures to death.

Therefore, I, a hunter, and a meat eater, do far less harm to animals then vegans, who must eat large amounts of soy products in order to consume a healthy amount of protein, thereby causing significant pain, and a horrifying death to animals that they won't even eat.

Our animals die humanely, and so we can eat them. Your animals die inhumanely, you don't even bother to do anything with the meat, and you kill far more of them.

Thus, veganism is inherently hypocritical.

Sources: http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com/animalrights/leastharm.htm

To start, I am no vegan nor am I a vegetarian.
I thought your argument was well concieved and was strong.
However, it fails to concede the opposite truths.

Firstly, if all the vegans and vegetarians surely realised their hypocrisy in this matter and became properly omnivorous again,; what difference is created by consuming animals rather than shredding them in a combine harvester? The animals remain dead anyway. Surely every life counts, numbers are merely statistics.
Secondly, with or without the vegans, wheat harvest will still be maintained at current levels meaning that the eradication of native life forms will remain at present rates. This is due to the Capitalist economy where farmers grow not to meet a need or demand but instead to make a profit.
Thirdly, as a hunter and meat eater, you are also human. This means that it is likely that you eat wheat products as well in addition to many other things contained in the vegan diet. Perhaps you too are guilty of the massacre of those poor, poor animals in the crop.

My two pennies....

[QUOTE=The Isle of SkyeOur animals die humanely, and so we can eat them. Your animals die inhumanely, you don't even bother to do anything with the meat, and you kill far more of them.

Thus, veganism is inherently hypocritical.

QUOTE]

Only if you're vegan/vegitarian because you think it's cruel to kill animals for meat. There are other reasons that most people bypass, *sighs*

Not even then.
If you consider it bad to kill animals it is logical to want to kill as few animals as possible. Therefore if being a vegan means fewer animals are killed (and it does), then there is no hypocrisy whatsoever in being a vegan.

Why do people keep attacking vegetarians and vegans anyway?

I really have no respect for "vegetarians." You know, eat what you want, whatever, but it's not a fucking "lifestyle," and don't expect me to follow PC-ness in avoiding talking negatively about it as if it were the same thing as a 'race' or religion. Vegetarians opened the whole can of worms when they gave themselves a name, deliberately set themselves apart from us "meat eaters" (as if being an omnivore is suddenly an exception for homo sapiens), and set themselves out as morally superior for it all.

You reap what you sew. In this case, for vegetarians, it's innocent chopped up animals that go to complete waste (washed off the combines and into the sewers, as opposed to eaten like beef is). That doesn't bother me morally, but you'd think it'd bother 'moral vegetarians.'

Unfortunately this thread just shows that few things can pierce the Ignorance Shield.

:eek: Wow. What's with the random extreme vitriol?

The basic argument of this thread is right up there with my old favourite 'but plants are living things too'. :rolleyes: No shit!

Please stop assuming that all vegetarians consider themselves 'morally superior' or that they are all unaware that it is virtually impossible to stay alive without killing some animals.

Please stop assuming that all vegetarians consider themselves 'morally superior' or that they are all unaware that it is virtually impossible to stay alive without killing some animals.
*Applauds*

You know, I've never had reason to see it this way before, as I've never run across this kind of serious debate in REAL life, where it MATTERS, but it seems to me that some of the omnivores on this thread have as much animosity, as well as possible complexes, as some of the "Holier-than-thou" herbivores (there, not using the V-word, Santa Barbara. Are you happy now?) have clearly shown they do. Do you people, on BOTH sides, have this kind of heated argument on the street? With strangers, in public places? It terrifies me to think that someday I might be going out to eat and walk in to find a vege--oh, I'm sorry, HERBIVORE and omni/carnivore just hashing it out.

Yes. It's true. Wheat production is responsible for the death of more animals than the meat industry. Let me explain:

Any plant that grows on stems, including wheat, soybeans, and others, is harvested with something called a combine. What a combine does, is it moves through the fields, chopping wheat stems at ground level.

Look here: http://images.google.com/images?q=wheat%20combine&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&sa=N&tab=wi

It does this with rotating blades that move at ground level. Each year, trillions of rabbits, groundhogs, moles, voles, birds, snakes, and other animals are chopped to death, their bodies torn asunder and then crushed as these massive combines harvest wheat. It's an extremly frightening and painfull death, because the wheat combines are so wide, that the animals can hear them coming, but can't get away before the combine chops the poor creatures to death.

Therefore, I, a hunter, and a meat eater, do far less harm to animals then vegans, who must eat large amounts of soy products in order to consume a healthy amount of protein, thereby causing significant pain, and a horrifying death to animals that they won't even eat.

Our animals die humanely, and so we can eat them. Your animals die inhumanely, you don't even bother to do anything with the meat, and you kill far more of them.

Thus, veganism is inherently hypocritical.

Sources: http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com/animalrights/leastharm.htm
May have already been pointed out, but did you get this from Maddox's website?

:eek: Wow. What's with the random extreme vitriol?

The basic argument of this thread is right up there with my old favourite 'but plants are living things too'. :rolleyes: No shit!

Please stop assuming that all vegetarians consider themselves 'morally superior' or that they are all unaware that it is virtually impossible to stay alive without killing some animals.
Not all, just most! :p

Simonist']*Applauds*

It terrifies me to think that someday I might be going out to eat and walk in to find a vege--oh, I'm sorry, HERBIVORE and omni/carnivore just hashing it out.

Just offer to buy them both dinner and run... ;)

it has nothing to do with what you can or can not do. go to a library and learn how to gather food from the wild. kind of like what all our primitive ancestors did. then sell your house and go live in the wild eating berries.
why not do it? because its inconvenient. you are not willing to go out and go searching for berries because you like your life style. to preserve your comfortable life style, your attitude is so what if a few million animals are slaughtered. this is the same mentality that meat eaters have. only difference is that your morals are in direct contradiction with this mentality but ours are not

This is such straw-man nonsense. Tell me, Club House, tell me what you believe in. Are you Christian? If so, do you go out in every moment of your spare time trying to bring people to Christ? If not, do you mean to tell me you don't care about the immortal souls of your fellow people?! Maybe not Christian? Whatever you are, please do tell me that you devote every waking moment you're not making money to live to it - no, I lie, forget making money to live, since you're telling veggies to go work the fields for themselves, 'kay? You know, if they all did, you'd be criticising them for being shut-away selfish bastards who weren't contributing to the economy.

Moreover, many veggies/vegans do not object to the method of death, as long as it is painless (to the utilitarian the painless death of something that cannot understand its own death is a morally neutral action), but the conditions meat animals are kept in during their lives. Veal calves used to be the prime example, but now it's battery hens, whose feet are bloody stumps by the time they die from supporting themselves on thin cage mesh flooring all their lives, and who have horrendous hormone problems because of their feed. Technically, if we're going to be utilitarian about this, aside from the few seconds of terror before the combine gets them there is nothing morally objectionable about the slaughter of all those minibeasts in the fields. One second they're alive, the next they're not - and since they're no longer aware, are aware of neither pain nor pleasure. This is assuming the harvester does a good job of it, which considering the harvester:fieldmouse size ratio would be a reasonable thing to assume.

Take this small loss of utility, from the final "What the fu-" of a hundred rodents, then compare it with the growth of utility if it were economically viable to eradicate battery farms, and use 100% free-range chickens. I think the sum might come out positive.

A lot of vegitarians take a moral high ground built of sand (because it's much easier to understand than one of rock), and when the tide of carnivorous opinion washes over them they find their feeble emotionalist promontory washed away like Mont St. Michel, only to return when their hippie friends' angst in their LiveJournals pushes back the tide, and they weep for the sheep once more. But just because many parrot slogans back and forth (fairly standard feature of all human debate that: fucking idiots) doesn't mean the whole lot of vegitarians need to be quite so condemned. As with almost every group there is only one all-encompassing classficiation which warrants condemnation - IDIOTS.

To whit, I couldn't give a flying fuck about PETA, they're armchair fanatics, and like all fanatics they do the reasonable majority a great disservice. In Britain we actually have animal rights terrorists, who terrorise guinea pig farms and brick the windows of pharmaceutical high-ups. Again I say to them, you dickheads, you'll all be a lot happier once we have the cure for cancer. But I'm gonna stop ranting there. Have a nice day.

Save a cow - eat a vegitarian!

P.S. I am one, by the way, in case you hadn't guessed; I just made sure to think it through a bit first.

I'm a vegetarian primiarily because it's healthier. I don't smoke, abuse drugs nor do I drink alcoholic beverages.

I lack the commitment required for veganism, and I guess I'm guilty of liking cheese too much.

I'm a vegetarian primiarily because it's healthier. I don't smoke, abuse drugs nor do I drink alcoholic beverages.

I lack the commitment required for veganism, and I guess I'm guilty of liking cheese too much.
Funny you should say that - most of the vegetarians I know (who claim health reasons) are smokers and/or alcohol drinkers...glad to hear you are more sensible ;)

Funny enough as a vegan I am not only killing less animals but also less plants.....

Nice strawman though

Simonist']*Applauds*

You know, I've never had reason to see it this way before, as I've never run across this kind of serious debate in REAL life, where it MATTERS, but it seems to me that some of the omnivores on this thread have as much animosity, as well as possible complexes, as some of the "Holier-than-thou" herbivores (there, not using the V-word, Santa Barbara. Are you happy now?) have clearly shown they do. Do you people, on BOTH sides, have this kind of heated argument on the street? With strangers, in public places? It terrifies me to think that someday I might be going out to eat and walk in to find a vege--oh, I'm sorry, HERBIVORE and omni/carnivore just hashing it out.

Who says it's serious debate? It's NS.

Of course you don't have these kinds of serious debates in everyday conversation, just like you don't have people going around roleplaying fictious nations in everyday conversation, but what does that matter? That has little to do with this particular topic and is more a commentary on online forum based debating. I've found that if I try to debate things in real life people get uncomfortable, because in real life people are concerned more with getting along with each other, so they repress their political and idealogical differences in the name of expediency, and save them for outbursts of political activism like 9/11 or the rise of the Nazi party. All of which I do not see as automatically better, but all the same it's a digression.

Anyway, I don't have any "complexes." And my animosity, as you put it, is largely a result of interpretation. I don't see myself as having any animosity, I'm only typing words here. They may be harsh words, but you know the saying about sticks and stones.

Who says it's serious debate? It's NS.

Of course you don't have these kinds of serious debates in everyday conversation, just like you don't have people going around roleplaying fictious nations in everyday conversation, but what does that matter? That has little to do with this particular topic and is more a commentary on online forum based debating. I've found that if I try to debate things in real life people get uncomfortable, because in real life people are concerned more with getting along with each other, so they repress their political and idealogical differences in the name of expediency, and save them for outbursts of political activism like 9/11 or the rise of the Nazi party. All of which I do not see as automatically better, but all the same it's a digression.

Anyway, I don't have any "complexes." And my animosity, as you put it, is largely a result of interpretation. I don't see myself as having any animosity, I'm only typing words here. They may be harsh words, but you know the saying about sticks and stones.
*sigh* As usual in cases like this, I was speaking in generalities, not just you, SB. Next time step back from the focus of your own points to realize this. The only mention I made of YOU was because you seem to be the only person bringing up a problem with the word "vegetarian". If I was replying directly to you, don't you figure I could've at least QUOTED you? Like this time. Yes, it's to you this time.

But I'm sure you assumed that before even reading.

Simonist']*sigh* As usual in cases like this, I was speaking in generalities, not just you, SB. Next time step back from the focus of your own points to realize this. The only mention I made of YOU was because you seem to be the only person bringing up a problem with the word "vegetarian". If I was replying directly to you, don't you figure I could've at least QUOTED you? Like this time. Yes, it's to you this time.

But I'm sure you assumed that before even reading.

You were speaking in generalities that included me pretty explicitly, so I responded. Want to go off on a "Don't talk to me 'lest I talk to you first" power trip?

You wanna tell me your generalities excluded me, fine, maybe I'll consider more carefully when posting, but somehow I don't think they did, and hence it is fair game for me to reply.

It's sad that you ignored my entire post just to tell me you have a problem with me having posted it. And here it was even a mild post, even AGREEING with some shit you said, but nevermind that, here's a chance to imply SB is an egotistical prat!

You were speaking in generalities that included me pretty explicitly, so I responded. Want to go off on a "Don't talk to me 'lest I talk to you first" power trip?

You wanna tell me your generalities excluded me, fine, maybe I'll consider more carefully when posting, but somehow I don't think they did, and hence it is fair game for me to reply.

It's sad that you ignored my entire post just to tell me you have a problem with me having posted it. And here it was even a mild post, even AGREEING with some shit you said, but nevermind that, here's a chance to imply SB is an egotistical prat!
I didn't ignore your post. Either one that I responded to in any sense. I also never claimed that my generalities excluded you, I pointed out that the only thing that explicitly REFERRED to you was the dislike of labeling ourselves as vegetarians. And I don't have a problem with you having posted anything, but I didn't see the point in referring directly to your previous post just because you answered my hypothetical situation about hashing this out in public. Congrats, I'm glad you did, and I'm glad to know you at least wouldn't do this in public, but that isn't really the point of this. I'm sure there are many people on here that would consider this a "serious debate". I'm sure there are people that have gotten their fragile feelings hurt over something that the opposition said. Personally, I don't see the point of hurt feelings, as I'm an herbivore who hates vegans, but would rather have the opportunity to eat meat...so I really can't take a side. FURTHERMORE, the mention of both complexes AND animosity was more to the people who are taking this all quite personally, because it's quite clear that some people are, more or less, beginning to ignore valid points made by EITHER side just because they're feeling a little burned. I would say this is the first post you've made that even borders on animosity of any sort, but I'm simply a little inclined to think so as you're putting words in my mouth. Whether or not you were agreeing with my points has nothing to do with what I said -- I was only talking about what seemed like an insistence that it was all about you, which it wasn't. If I had to give props to EVERY SINGLE PERSON who said something either in support of me or that I supported, that would just be too time-consuming. So no, I didn't. Sorry if you feel I should've somehow at least mentioned it, but it wasn't ignored in the least bit.

Now while I'd love to continue this, I have to get on the road. I'll be back to see whatever you had to say by Tuesday evening or Wednesday morning, but if you feel it absolutely necessary to keep arguing over this, even though I don't, you can feel free to email me over it (painted.morning@gmail.com), that way we can just quit junking up the board with what I'm sure everyone else doesn't want to read.

Hmm, alright. No I have no personal desire to hash this out further, but I give you props for your answer. I apologize if I seem a little defensive (in the Dept of Defense meaning of the word), it isn't really the case.

Although I would say that actually, people DO want to read them... the most controversial, the most inane is also the most well-read of threads on this forum. Politically, I think most people prefer a spectacle, and its no different here. Alas you and I can no longer give them one. ;)