NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/4534903.stm

Basically, the shopping centre makes the link that hoodie/cap=evil robber. It's newWhat do you think - good idea or infringement of right to wear whatever you want?

you know, its got more to do with the fact that you cant see the persons face on CCTV than the stereotype of a mugger

its like not being allowed to wear a helmet in a bank, just a bit different

No baseball caps or hooded sweatshirts? That's supposed to stop crime?

you know, its got more to do with the fact that you cant see the persons face on CCTV than the stereotype of a mugger

its like not being allowed to wear a helmet in a bank, just a bit different
Yeah, I realise that, but surely those wanting to rob a store will just look away from the cameras and remain inconspicuous. It's not like shopkeepers pay much attention in crowded shopping centres.

Its less of a robber thing and more of the fear of the culture of "chavs" which tend to put off people who go into shops to spend more money. Its fair enough really, as they aren't aiming their products at the groups of young people in hoods/caps who intimidate everyone else, and destroy the atmosphere of the shopping centre.

It's a private establishment. They can set whatever rules they want (as long as they're not breaking any laws on illegal discrimination). If you don't like the policy, take your business elsewhere.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/4534903.stm

Basically, the shopping centre makes the link that hoodie/cap=evil robber. It's newWhat do you think - good idea or infringement of right to wear whatever you want?

Meh, the Spar near me (Liverpool) does exactly the same thing, as do other places. Doesn't really bother me. But then again, I rarely wear hoodies/caps.

OK, so general consensus so far is it's a good thing. Probably should have put a poll in. Can I still do that?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/4534903.stm

Basically, the shopping centre makes the link that hoodie/cap=evil robber. It's newWhat do you think - good idea or infringement of right to wear whatever you want?

If it is the decision of a private company then that is their prerogative. It is when governments enforce things that problems of civil liberties arise.

the kids who wear hoodies all the time (with the hoods up and baseball caps)are the type that commit crime - the chavs. they spoil it for everyone else but i agree with this decision by the mall

chavs (http://worldofwonder.net/images/june041-1-tm.jpg)

If it is the decision of a private company then that is their prerogative. It is when governments enforce things that problems of civil liberties arise.
SO you're suggesting that private corporations can't opress people.

Most of my tops are hoodies, I hardly wear the hood up except for when it's cold. I'm also broke most of the time, so have no money to go buy new tops and basicaly I think it's stupid. Ban hoods up, not the tops. I'm sure they can find other ways of obscuring their faces if they wanted to. They are attacking the consquences not the root cause.

Keep the chavs out, I'm good wit that. Hoodies though tend to be worn more by the 'punk' and 'commie' people who tend to act witha modicum of decency.

At least they do in my experience.

SO you're suggesting that private corporations can't opress people.

You are welcome to take your business elsewhere if you disagree with the company's policies. Only when you do not have a choice otherwise do issues of civil liberties arise.

You are welcome to take your business elsewhere if you disagree with the company's policies. Only when you do not have a choice otherwise do issues of civil liberties arise.If every private firm takes up the idea, then there will be no choice.

If every private firm takes up the idea, then there will be no choice.

In a free market, there will always be someone willing to cater to the needs of people that everyone else does not.

In a free market, there will always be someone willing to cater to the needs of people that everyone else does not.
Not necessarily. Only in a perfectly competitive market, where products are homogeneous, barriers are non existant and firms are infinite, will firms be truly allocatively efficient. Malls are definitely an example of oligopoly, due to massive barrier of sunk costs of building a mall. Therefore, not all firms can cater to the exact needs of the consumer and allocative inefficiency of underproduction exists.

Keep the chavs out, I'm good wit that. Hoodies though tend to be worn more by the 'punk' and 'commie' people who tend to act witha modicum of decency.

At least they do in my experience.

Indeed. I wear a hoodie, and chavs actually hurl abuse at me for it. I suppose it's probably the fact that it's got the Doors on it though...

How about just banning the existance of Chavs? :D

I live really near that shopping center, i used to spend a lot of time there when i was younger.

Thing is, there is an infestation of chav. The other week I was there, and about 30 or so of them started a big brawl in the shopping center (bout 9pm, after shops closed). They hang around there because they think its cool and they have nothing better to do.

They don't spend any money; they don't have any. The basically hang round the seating areas and cause problems. They steal, intimidate, and are generally chavs.

As a result the bars there are ultra-ID conscious, the security is up tight, and whole center feels like a delapitated inner city suburb after 8pm. Buses are in a disgusting way thanks to chavs, and police basically make the place their second base of operations.

So banning caps and hoodies?

Please do.

Ah well, I'm off. Continue to non-post in this thread, all of you peoples out there.

Ah well, I'm off. Continue to non-post in this thread, all of you peoples out there.
night dude

Hoodies though tend to be worn more by the 'punk' and 'commie' people who tend to act witha modicum of decency.
I'm a 33 year old conservative/(small L) libertarian hybrid and I love my hoodies. The only time I wear my hood up is when I'm on my motorcycle and it's cold.

Also, I have to be REALLY desperate to patronize a mall, so this wouldn't really affect me. I just wouldn't wear my hoodies to the mall...if and when I actually went to the mall.

Bah, plenty of places do that, bars especially. Doesn't bother me, it just means that I don't get harassed by scallies (I hate the word "chav") when I go to places with dress codes.

I do remember the Triangle in Manchester having an anti-"mosher" dress code. No baggy jeans, hoodies etc. I wasn't too impressed with that. No idea if the bans still in place.

Woo! Down with the chavs!


See. Society loves us 'Grebs' now. Middle finger to Middle England!

I do remember the Triangle in Manchester having an anti-"mosher" dress code. No baggy jeans, hoodies etc. I wasn't too impressed with that. No idea if the bans still in place.
:confused:

I've never had that problem (just baggy jeans, never wear hoodies). But then again, it has been ages since I've been there. And I seem to have the odd skill of being ignored.

Anything that compells people to dress more tastefully is good in my opinion.

Anything that compells people to dress more tastefully is good in my opinion.
I'll actually agree there.

*whips out my black leather pants and red & black snakeprint pleather jacket* :D

Gives a whole literal twist to the term "Fashion Police" hehe

Mode of dress is an important part of personal identity, and personally, I think it's fairly idiotic to alienate people who use a certain form of dress to identify themselves. Not all people who wear Burberry caps with the brm turned up and tracksuits with the trousers tucked into their socks are going to glass you. Not all people who wear black trenchcoats are going to shoot up their school. The vast majority of goths are basically decent people. Problems arise when people are disillusioned, and the solution is not to ban the form of identity a person chooses when their peers are more likely to be disillusioned. It just adds to the problem.

People who are bent on hiding their faces and robbing shops are going to do it. They just are. How hard is it to pretend to be sneezing as you enter a shop, then put a stocking over your head? Dress codes will not help-- they'll just make a slough of people feel like they're undesireable, when they have done nothing to deserve such a reputation. This, incidentally, will probably increase their antipathy towards the shops, and therefore the likelihood that they might not hold the shop's rights to its property or its propery's integrity very highly.

I don't wear hoodies and I don't generally go to malls (I'm in Britain), but if I discovered that, say, the Buchanan Galleries was knocking back Goths, there is no way I would go in there until they changed their policies, and I would make certain that they knew it.

people who wear Burberry caps with the brm turned up and tracksuits with the trousers tucked into their socks
If that's someone's idea of "fashion", then we truly need fashion police. I can't believe some moron would go out in public with their tracksuit legs tucked into their socks. :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

That's GOT to look abso-fucking-lutely ridiculous.

If that's someone's idea of "fashion", then we truly need fashion police. I can't believe some moron would go out in public with their tracksuit legs tucked into their socks. :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

That's GOT to look abso-fucking-lutely ridiculous.


There is a movement in the royal borough of kensington and chelsea, i was told, to make it legal to beat them.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/4534903.stm

Basically, the shopping centre makes the link that hoodie/cap=evil robber. It's newWhat do you think - good idea or infringement of right to wear whatever you want?

friend: now we wont be able to pick out the robber people! lol

Me: ok thats dumb, next we wont be alowed to go in mini skirts, then tank tops, then hats, then we wont be able to chew gum and then government will make us all drones!

Ok realisticlally, thats a load of shit. As a post-arrested kid i can tell you that you dont need a hoodie to swipe something. Infact i have heard stories of people going out of a future shop without paying for anything in the buggy. got caught the second time she did it though.

any way, stereotyping like that is moronic.

It's private property, they have the right to make up rules like this if they really want to.

Having said that, I think it's a bit of a stupid rule. They should actually tackle the cause of the anti social behaviour, not the hoodie it wears.

I bet the sports store that sold basecaps and hooded sweaters had to close down, huh?

Come on - I rarely take my basecap off and I almost always wear a hooded sweater... Next time they don't like your pants or face - WTF? People should behave decently though, that's about it, I don't care what they wear. Where's the tolerance?

I do remember the Triangle in Manchester having an anti-"mosher" dress code. No baggy jeans, hoodies etc. I wasn't too impressed with that. No idea if the bans still in place.


:confused:

I've never had that problem (just baggy jeans, never wear hoodies). But then again, it has been ages since I've been there. And I seem to have the odd skill of being ignored.

They got rid of it after O'Neil opened up shop there, otherwise it would have been kinda pointless.

Those of you who don't live in the UK don't understand this. I don't know how to draw comparisons with the US, but basically, hoodies are used as a method of disguise here. They aren't worn normally, they're tied up, tight, so the person only sees out of a hole at the front maybe 9 or 10cm in diameter. The baseball cap puts the face in shadow and hides it from security cameras. Fashion statement or otherwise, this is equivalent to banning crash helmets in banks, as someone's already said. And I'll bet at the time plenty of people complained about that, too, and look what a great idea it is.

For examples of chavs at their worst: ChavScum (http://www.chavscum.co.uk)

For examples of chavs at their worst: ChavScum (http://www.chavscum.co.uk)

Great t-shirt slogan "Bobs your uncle and your dad!" :D

Heh, so because I'm wearing a hoodie (one of my old school ones no less) I'm a criminal? heh.

Those of you who don't live in the UK don't understand this. I don't know how to draw comparisons with the US, but basically, hoodies are used as a method of disguise here. They aren't worn normally, they're tied up, tight, so the person only sees out of a hole at the front maybe 9 or 10cm in diameter. The baseball cap puts the face in shadow and hides it from security cameras. Fashion statement or otherwise, this is equivalent to banning crash helmets in banks, as someone's already said. And I'll bet at the time plenty of people complained about that, too, and look what a great idea it is.

For examples of chavs at their worst: ChavScum (http://www.chavscum.co.uk)

I have a hoody. I'm 21 and never been involved in any crime. I wear it because it is warm.

Would I be allowed to wear a baseball cap backwards, so my face was clear?

Or is it an attempt to ban a certain class of people?

I don't see the fuss. Clothing just covers up the irrational shame of nudity humans have.

I can see this causing problems, though. Firstly, the 'chavs' (I hate that word, and the fact that it has suddenly become a popular subject) will either lurk around outside, where there are no security guards, or they will change their clothing to get in -- in which case, you won't know who to avoid.

Secondly -- what about winter, when people wear hoods because it's raining or cold? Are they going to start kicking old women out?

I don't see any problem with the ban persoanlly, for the same reason i don't think a ban on wearing ski-masks would necessarily be anti-skiiers. It's just common sense that people shouldn't be allowed to hide their identity from the cameras - otherwise there'd no point to the cameras.

Perhaps a more interesting discussion would be banning muslim veils. Not sure where i stand on that.

the kids who wear hoodies all the time (with the hoods up and baseball caps)are the type that commit crime - the chavs. they spoil it for everyone else but i agree with this decision by the mall

chavs (http://worldofwonder.net/images/june041-1-tm.jpg)

The only people that 'spoil things' in my opinion is those who bow down to be spoonfed media stereotypes and/or help support stupid generalisations.
What riles me the most is that a lot of people who say things like 'chavs are all criminals' tend to be people who'd complain if i said "all moshers are morons", "jews are all avaricious crooks" etc etc.
Apparently political correctness is only important if the rest of the mob are doing it too.

They have done a similar thing in some nightclubs in London, they have banned burberry because alot of the local drug dealers wear it. IMHO banning hoodies and caps isn't going to stop criminals entering shops, just force them to wear different clothes.

Discrimination against people wearing certain clothes is one step nearer to discrimination against people because of the tone of their skin or religion.

Oh. That's already been done.

The root causes of behaviour that is deemed unacceptable is what needs to be explored, in terms of social welfare and and overall dissaffection.

What the shopping centre is doing is discriminating not only against people wearing hoodies and caps, but against teenagers themselves, which I think is just the usual bollocks backed by the government for a few days to claim they are countering crime, when they are are not. To counter crime, you need to look into the causes of it.

What people wear does not make them do things like mugging and the like, it's their mentality, brought on by the enviroment.

And yeah, it's all very well for fatty Two Jags Prescott to complain about nearly being happy slapped and complaining about 'thugs' when he gave someone a happy punch a few years ago....

The only people that 'spoil things' in my opinion is those who bow down to be spoonfed media stereotypes and/or help support stupid generalisations.
What riles me the most is that a lot of people who say things like 'chavs are all criminals' tend to be people who'd complain if i said "all moshers are morons", "jews are all avaricious crooks" etc etc.
Apparently political correctness is only important if the rest of the mob are doing it too.
i would complain if you said 'all moshers are idiots' or somesuch, but this happens to be one generalisation and stereotype i happen to support. i know its a generalisation and hypocritical, but fact is there is a real element of truth in it

The 'baseball cap' and 'hoodie' are the unfotunatly asscoiated with Chavs, and thus people want them banned becuase of thier reputation of crime. Chavs should be banned, or better, shot :sniper:.

Discrimination against people wearing certain clothes is one step nearer to discrimination against people because of the tone of their skin or religion.

Oh. That's already been done.

The root causes of behaviour that is deemed unacceptable is what needs to be explored, in terms of social welfare and and overall dissaffection.

What the shopping centre is doing is discriminating not only against people wearing hoodies and caps, but against teenagers themselves, which I think is just the usual bollocks backed by the government for a few days to claim they are countering crime, when they are are not. To counter crime, you need to look into the causes of it.

What people wear does not make them do things like mugging and the like, it's their mentality, brought on by the enviroment.

And yeah, it's all very well for fatty Two Jags Prescott to complain about nearly being happy slapped and complaining about 'thugs' when he gave someone a happy punch a few years ago....

Yeah, i hate all this discrimination. I mean, people aren't allowed to carry knives, guns, grenades, etc openly on the streets either! That's terrible, clearly discriminating against people who enjoy sporting weapons as accessories.

i would complain if you said 'all moshers are idiots' or somesuch, but this happens to be one generalisation and stereotype i happen to support. i know its a generalisation and hypocritical, but fact is there is a real element of truth in it

Yeah, there was an element of truth in the suggestion that Jews were avaricious (i mean, Jews dealt heavily in the financial sector - loaning people money,running pawn shops, things like that) and look how that turned out for Nazi Germany.

Ah well, if you can live with being a hypocrite then i guess that's your choice.

It's private property, they have the right to make up rules like this if they really want to.

Having said that, I think it's a bit of a stupid rule. They should actually tackle the cause of the anti social behaviour, not the hoodie it wears.
Are you suggesting that the shopping malls should step in to solve Britain's social problems?
How can a shopping mall do anything except react to the social problem? If 90% of the hoodie + baseball cap wearing populace ar causing crime, being unsocial and driving away business from the honest customer, the mall has little choice but to ban all of them. If you really want to buy something from them, you have the choice to either take your hoodie off while on their premises, or find a shop that sells what you want and has less stringent rules.

although i can see that it may result in an increased level of security, restricting what people can wear/not wear anywhere is a major blow aginst civil rights and must be stopped

Discrimination against people wearing certain clothes is one step nearer to discrimination against people because of the tone of their skin or religion.

Oh. That's already been done.

The root causes of behaviour that is deemed unacceptable is what needs to be explored, in terms of social welfare and and overall dissaffection.

What the shopping centre is doing is discriminating not only against people wearing hoodies and caps, but against teenagers themselves, which I think is just the usual bollocks backed by the government for a few days to claim they are countering crime, when they are are not. To counter crime, you need to look into the causes of it.

What people wear does not make them do things like mugging and the like, it's their mentality, brought on by the enviroment.

And yeah, it's all very well for fatty Two Jags Prescott to complain about nearly being happy slapped and complaining about 'thugs' when he gave someone a happy punch a few years ago....

Couldn't have put it better myself.

Most nightclubs and pubs over here ban hoodies...

You're discovering something that made enclosed shopping malls very popular with store owners and developers in the US.

A shopping mall, quite unlike an outdoor shopping district, is considered private property - just the same as the interior of an ordinary building.

You can make rules for your building and place of business. Rules such as "no shirt, no shoes, no business". Or, "no skateboarding". Or, "no carry of firearms" (even if it's legal to carry in public). Or, mall security can arbitrarily throw you out for violating rules of dress or behavior in the mall.

Whether the rule is right or not is irrelevant. You couldn't challenge it here in the US. The mall would win.

Your mileage may vary in the UK, but I bet they consider a mall to be private property.

Mode of dress is an important part of personal identity, and personally, I think it's fairly idiotic to alienate people who use a certain form of dress to identify themselves. Not all people who wear Burberry caps with the brm turned up and tracksuits with the trousers tucked into their socks are going to glass you. Not all people who wear black trenchcoats are going to shoot up their school. The vast majority of goths are basically decent people. Problems arise when people are disillusioned, and the solution is not to ban the form of identity a person chooses when their peers are more likely to be disillusioned. It just adds to the problem.

People who are bent on hiding their faces and robbing shops are going to do it. They just are. How hard is it to pretend to be sneezing as you enter a shop, then put a stocking over your head? Dress codes will not help-- they'll just make a slough of people feel like they're undesireable, when they have done nothing to deserve such a reputation. This, incidentally, will probably increase their antipathy towards the shops, and therefore the likelihood that they might not hold the shop's rights to its property or its propery's integrity very highly.

I don't wear hoodies and I don't generally go to malls (I'm in Britain), but if I discovered that, say, the Buchanan Galleries was knocking back Goths, there is no way I would go in there until they changed their policies, and I would make certain that they knew it.

your point is valid, but thats not what the title of the article says.
crackdown on anti-social behaviour

I have found people doing crime do it because who they are not what they decide to wear, so the ban is stupid in that respect.
Yet another situation where the "solution" really fixes nothing except to make a few paranoid middle-english think they being made safer,
when they return and change clothes from hoodies and wear something different what ban is next???

But as others have mentioned, if shops do not want your business because of - well any reason they express that you dont agree with - dont go there, it is private property so their choice not to want to take the money from people attired in a certain way (not a perfect way around things - I wear hoodies, but i most certainly dont fit into the stereotype of what they are aiming at)

*Sigh*
Why is it that noone seems to be able to grasp the fact that shoopping malls couldn't care less what stereotype you supposedly fit into, what you look like or what kind of clothes you like to wear?
This isn't victimisation. I wear hoodies a fair bit, but ive not got a hang-up about companies taking an entirely logical move to help reduce crime. It's nothing to do with "omgz they all think we're criminals cuz we wear hoodies!1!1" it's simply a sensible and practical measure to stop criminals disguising their identity and avoiding prosecution.
Do you guys understand what security cameras are for? Then you should understand why things that hide your face are banned. It seems blindingly obvious to me.

Edit - i'm well aware that some people commit crime without trying to hide their identity. That's irrelevant - many people would be discouraged from committing crime if they know their face will be on record.

I have a hoody. I'm 21 and never been involved in any crime. I wear it because it is warm.

Would I be allowed to wear a baseball cap backwards, so my face was clear?

Or is it an attempt to ban a certain class of people?

Yes, you would, at a guess. And no, we just... don't do that here. We simply do not do that. Outside the UK, people seem to think we still have aristocracy, the middle classes who want to be aristocracy, and the working classes who quietly seethe with rage at their oppression by the higher-ups.

But my analogy stands clear and undamaged. Anyone can wear a hoody. I have a hoody that I love, for it is warm and baggy. But it can be used as a method of disguise, and when attempting to surprise friends on various prank-related occasions I have used it for this purpose.

Please note the article says: "Guidelines say intimidating behaviour by groups or individuals, anti-social behaviour including swearing, and wearing clothing which deliberately obscures the face such as hooded tops and baseball caps, will not be allowed."

The two in conjunction, is what it implies, which is most certainly a method of disguise. I'll post a picture of myself in that style if you wish, so you can see how effective it is at concealment. Hell, better than that, I could look for some footage of everyone disguising themselves like that during the race riots in Bradford in 2001? Or the May Day riots? Come on, people. Spirit, not the letter, 'kay?

It's nothing to do with "omgz they all think we're criminals cuz we wear hoodies!1!1" it's simply a sensible and practical measure to stop criminals disguising their identity and avoiding prosecution.

Listen to the French-sounding one, peeps.

Are they banning hoodies, or 'donning' the hood itself? Hoodies look much better with the hood down anyway, I don't see the point in donning it unless it's cold or you're doing some kind of rockyesque boxing exercise. :p

Are you suggesting that the shopping malls should step in to solve Britain's social problems?
How can a shopping mall do anything except react to the social problem? If 90% of the hoodie + baseball cap wearing populace ar causing crime, being unsocial and driving away business from the honest customer, the mall has little choice but to ban all of them. If you really want to buy something from them, you have the choice to either take your hoodie off while on their premises, or find a shop that sells what you want and has less stringent rules.

Let me rephrase: they should kick out people for actually behaving badly, not for wearing hoodies. I don't know the exact area, but I'd guess that at least 50% of people in hoodies or caps are not there to cause trouble. Banning certain clothing items rather than banning people who are being abusive is silly. It creates a "them-and-us" situation and is pretty insulting to people who wear hoodies/caps and behave appropriately and sensibly. Yes they can change their clothes if they really want to shop there but that doesn't change the way they've been labelled as troublemakers just by the way they normally dress.

Having said that, I do believe the centre are in their rights to do this -- it is private property after all. I just think it's a daft rule.

Btw, does anyone know if this ban covers all hoodies or just the hood being worn up? If it only bans the hood being worn up, it's not such a big deal anyway.

your point is valid, but thats not what the title of the article says.
crackdown on anti-social behaviour

Thank you. But part of my point was that banning hoodies won't do very much, if anything, towards cracking down on antisocial behaviour. It might move some of it out of the malls, but for the large part, it won't do anything except inflame negative sentiment. Sonoho-Real is correct: the bad behaviour should be banned, not the style some of those behaving badly adopt. I would agree that someone with a hoodie up, drawn tight so that only the tip of their nose is exposed, and wearing a baseball cap is pushing the line for a private establishment protected by security cameras, an dthat person should probably not be admitted... but how many people do you actually see dressed like that, apart from in a driving hailstorm? They stand out like a seven-foot-tall gorilla wearing a pink tutu and playing shakuhachi in the Glasgow Green. Having the rule there as a convenient excuse to ban the odd troublemaker whilst not enforcing it for the majority of decent folk is a nonstarter as well: if the rule isn't universally enforced, that will bite back should a case come to court, which it will. The ban needs to be on antisocial behaviour, not accidental attributes of some people whp perpetrate antisocial behaviour. I'm not saying that all hoodie wearers should cry victim: I'm saying that a ban on hoodies per se will do nothing to address the problem.

All we have to do is erase street culture ie chavs. It is like monkeys, the biggest, thickest, and most abusive is in charge while the others try to follow its so wonderous example. Street culture does not belong in modern society, but rather in the ice age.

The Hoodie to some extent covers some of the face and hair (especially when worn with a cap and/or scarf) this makes it harder for CCTV and secruity to indentify shoplifters, thugs etc. If the shopping centre wants to ban it then fine.

Thank you. But part of my point was that banning hoodies won't do very much, if anything, towards cracking down on antisocial behaviour.

The goal of the mall is not to stop antisocial behavior. The goal is to make shoppers feel safer so they will keep coming back to spend money.

I think it's a great idea...I hate scallies (or 'chavs' as theyre known down south); they're the scum of the earth. They don't go into shopping centres to shop; they go there to intimidate other people. Therefore they should be banned (and, since they wear hoodies and caps along with trackie bottoms tucked into their socks and reebok classics/nikes), then i think its a great idea to ban hoodies and caps from this centre. I only wish they would do it with the Trafford Centre (my nearest large shopping centre)...in fact, why not do it with the whole of Manchester and ban the fuckers from setting foot inside Manchester city centre. (Ok, so it might be an infringment of human rights, but since they barely qualify as human, I don't think that matters)

I only wish they would do it with the Trafford Centre (my nearest large shopping centre)

Meh, I hate the Trafford Centre anyway. Them banning scally clothes won't stop that. Its horrible and my summer last year was all the worst since I had to spend nearly everyday there :(

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/4534903.stm

Basically, the shopping centre makes the link that hoodie/cap=evil robber. It's newWhat do you think - good idea or infringement of right to wear whatever you want?

You probably don't know this, but in the UK anti-social behaviour has become a real problem. It is not, by any means, all youths who are parley to this BUT the vast majority of the culprits wear baseball caps. This is the badge of 'chavs' (a sociological term), and chavism is a rather complicated subculture loosely related to African-American Urban Culture. Basically, in the UK most kids don't wear hoodies and caps, it's unfortunate that many of those who do are Chavs. It is also for CCTV purposes.

you know, its got more to do with the fact that you cant see the persons face on CCTV than the stereotype of a mugger

its like not being allowed to wear a helmet in a bank, just a bit different

Well, actually they are quoted as saying that it is part of a crackdown of "intimidating behaviour". And Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott has backed the move, claiming hoods are part of an "intimidating" uniform after he was confronted by youths at a motorway cafe;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4539913.stm

Well, actually they are quoted as saying that it is part of a crackdown of "intimidating behaviour". And Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott has backed the move, claiming hoods are part of an "intimidating" uniform after he was confronted by youths at a motorway cafe;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4539913.stm


So whats next? Black t-shirts with rock band names on them would be intimidating shortly and therefore be banned too. Why dont they just keep a huge stack of sissy clothes outside the mall and ask everyone going in to wear them and give them back once they are outside the mall?
Man! have they considered having better security at the frigging mall to stop robberies? :headbang: :headbang:

So whats next? Black t-shirts with rock band names on them would be intimidating shortly and therefore be banned too. Why dont they just keep a huge stack of sissy clothes outside the mall and ask everyone going in to wear them and give them back once they are outside the mall?
Man! have they considered having better security at the frigging mall to stop robberies? :headbang: :headbang:

The measure is as much - if not more - about perception rather than actual rates of crime.

People feel less safe surrounded by chavved up kids than they do when those kids aren't chavved up.

People who feel safe are more likely to spend more time in the shopping centre than those who feel intimidated - that means more revenue for the centre.

It won't make a bit of difference to me either way [not my local centre, I don't wear hoodies, and I'm not intimidated by those who do - ever notice how bloody small chavs are?].

Something amusing is that just the other week (me being a 19 y/o goth) a 3 foot tall pygmy of a chav approached me, he must've only been about 12 or 13, the filth spilling out of his mouth was rather vulgar.
All I could do was laugh in his face when he tried to pick a fight with me :p
It must be said that the whole chav subculture is some kind of joke, I guess it just gives the no-hopers something to do - go out and buy a burberry cap, buy a white nike hoodie and some tracksuit bottoms (tucked into socks) and go around abusing anything that moves...sad that the world has degenerated to something like this.

Something amusing is that just the other week (me being a 19 y/o goth) a 3 foot tall pygmy of a chav approached me, he must've only been about 12 or 13, the filth spilling out of his mouth was rather vulgar.
All I could do was laugh in his face when he tried to pick a fight with me :p
It must be said that the whole chav subculture is some kind of joke, I guess it just gives the no-hopers something to do - go out and buy a burberry cap, buy a white nike hoodie and some tracksuit bottoms (tucked into socks) and go around abusing anything that moves...sad that the world has degenerated to something like this.

Oh no a lil kid was trying to start a fight with me what is the world coming to!

Well it's not like it's a 1 in a million chance though. It's an example that I was using. It's enough that people have to dodge flying bottles coming out of some of the bars and pubs round here.
Can you walk down the street on a Saturday afternoon and not have to listen to belittling comments thrown at you, abuse for who you are, or every other word being swearing of some sort? I doubt it.

Well it's not like it's a 1 in a million chance though. It's an example that I was using. It's enough that people have to dodge flying bottles coming out of some of the bars and pubs round here.
Can you walk down the street on a Saturday afternoon and not have to listen to belittling comments thrown at you, abuse for who you are, or every other word being swearing of some sort? I doubt it.

You do have a point there

That's ridiculous! It looks like they're just trying to keep a certian type of person out of the mall...

I suppose they have no qualms with women wearing far too little clothing in the malls... isn't that offensive and unfamily as well?

I suppose they have no qualms with women wearing far too little clothing in the malls... isn't that offensive and unfamily as well?

Who goes shopping half naked?

The Daleks have the right idea here! EXTERMINATE!!!

And when they are all dead, they (the chavs) can be put to good use....

That is, as fertilizer or pet food!

That's ridiculous! It looks like they're just trying to keep a certian type of person out of the mall...

Absolutely - as it should be. My local centre isn't infested yet [side effect of being a university city - chavs are outnumbered by smart people], but that could change - if it does, I'd like for them to introduce a similar ban.

the principle is not much different from ths signs on most night clubs & bars in my part of UK which say all hats must be removed and also the crash helmet in bank example. Although it is not just the CCTV cameras that it confuses it also means a person must stare right into the hood to get a good description of a person. And lets face it, Hoodies AND a baseball cap is a bit like sandals & socks, the only thing it achieves is to point out the common sense of the individual wearing it, or lack thereof! BTW has anyone else seen signs in newsagent saying only 2 school children @ a time.

It is not enough to count heads, you must also weigh them!!

Its not just chavs that wear hoodies all the greebos with the lame (insert your fav band here) hoodies will have to go to

I'm wearing a hoodie right now and when I was outside I had the hood on [it was raining]. In school I was voted most likely to be a degenerate.

Coincidence?

I think not.

Having just read through some more of the posts I have to say there are two seperate issues here. While I can agree with some peoples views about banning certain types of clothing as discriminating against a proportion of society that wear that type of clothing, the issue hear is not what you think a person will do because of the clothes he/she wears, but what they would be able to do, or more precisely what common perception is of what the could get away with. i.e. I would imagine that anyone wearing a; Balaclava, ski mask, hockey mask, stocking over there head or mask of any description (except on Halloween) would cultivate the opinion in others that they may cause trouble because they could not be identified. This leads to fear of this behavoir and therefore people being uncomfortable with this group.

It is not enough to count heads, you must also weigh them.

Wow - what a difference an ocean makes. Over on this side of the pond, they're still flogging Burberry to the upper-middle class at the 'elite' malls... and Nike's trying desperately not to go downscale by being put on the shelves at K-Mart.

Personally, I think that dress codes at malls might not be a bad idea - you could have a downscale mall on the east side where anything goes, the tony upscale 'retail resorts' with doormen and valet parking for those who want to forget that the lower classes exist, and us geeks can stay home and order our stuff off the internet. :D

Meh, I hate the Trafford Centre anyway. Them banning scally clothes won't stop that. Its horrible and my summer last year was all the worst since I had to spend nearly everyday there :(

yeh, im not a big fan of he trafford centre either...everything u can get there u can get in m/c city centre only cheaper and better. but i stil think they should ban scallies from it to stop them from harassing members of the public who want to shop there

Something amusing is that just the other week (me being a 19 y/o goth) a 3 foot tall pygmy of a chav approached me, he must've only been about 12 or 13, the filth spilling out of his mouth was rather vulgar.
All I could do was laugh in his face when he tried to pick a fight with me :p
It must be said that the whole chav subculture is some kind of joke, I guess it just gives the no-hopers something to do - go out and buy a burberry cap, buy a white nike hoodie and some tracksuit bottoms (tucked into socks) and go around abusing anything that moves...sad that the world has degenerated to something like this.

exactly, scallies arent the brightest of specimens. the best thing to do is just to laugh at them or just ignore them. its like a little kid having a tantrum; if you ignore them or laugh at them then they will stop. if u give them the attention they want, then they will continue. so if we stop giving scallies all this media attention (which they dont deserve) and just go bk to ignoring them and realising that they are the scum of the earth, then they will just crawl back into the shit infested holes from where they came and not bother us. thats my opinion anyway.

The Daleks have the right idea here! EXTERMINATE!!!

And when they are all dead, they (the chavs) can be put to good use....

That is, as fertilizer or pet food!

good idea. im normally against the senseless slaughter of animals, but i think i'd make an exception for scallies.

Absolutely - as it should be. My local centre isn't infested yet [side effect of being a university city - chavs are outnumbered by smart people], but that could change - if it does, I'd like for them to introduce a similar ban.

Mine is, and it's a uni city. But chavland estate is right opposite the main campus, so meh. :p

We probably still outnumber them, but that doesn't stop skinny eight year olds from trying to pick fights on groups of students twice their number, twice their age and twice their size. :p

Mine is, and it's a uni city. But chavland estate is right opposite the main campus, so meh. :p

We probably still outnumber them, but that doesn't stop skinny eight year olds from trying to pick fights on groups of students twice their number, twice their age and twice their size. :p

Ya gotta love em.

I *really* love it when they do that walk with their elbows out - like a lizard with a puffed up neck. A quick dip of the shoulder while walking by and the poor little chavling is sitting on the floor wondering what happened.

Chavs aren't the only ones that wear hoodies. I'm a goth and I wear a black hoodie with a vampire smiley on it. But all the goths I know are decent. But I only know 2 decent chavs. Shoot the rest :mp5:

Ya gotta love em.

I *really* love it when they do that walk with their elbows out - like a lizard with a puffed up neck. A quick dip of the shoulder while walking by and the poor little chavling is sitting on the floor wondering what happened.

I've always favored the leg sweep from behind. They fall on their face, you walk over them, and they wonder what happened.

you mean y'all have so much crime in your malls that you need constant camera surveillance and have to ban sweatshirts and baseball caps??

huh?

and ONLY the "bad people" wear baseball caps?? only criminals wear sweatshirts with hoods?

REALLY?

arent they really saying that only certain kinds of people are welcome at their mall? they want to make it safe for the upper middle class to shop without worrying about rubbing up against the pootinky people. ohmygod what if lady hooohaw was TOUCHED BY A CHAV!!! *shudder* perish the thought!

y'all NEED this kind of segregation eh? class-mixin' is just wrong.

arent they really saying that only certain kinds of people are welcome at their mall? they want to make it safe for the upper middle class to shop without worrying about rubbing up against the pootinky people. ohmygod what if lady hooohaw was TOUCHED BY A CHAV!!! *shudder* perish the thought!

y'all NEED this kind of segregation eh? class-mixin' is just wrong.

All malls are private property.
All malls are in business to make money - selling to as many customers who have as much money as possible.

Chavs and hoodies by definition are not a profitable sector of the customer population. And yes, they probably scare off customers with money.

Since it's private property, the malls can do what they like. Use cameras. Enact policies. Kick people out of the mall - permanently, without hearing or trial or recourse.

It's perfectly legal.

All malls are private property.
All malls are in business to make money - selling to as many customers who have as much money as possible.

Chavs and hoodies by definition are not a profitable sector of the customer population. And yes, they probably scare off customers with money.

Since it's private property, the malls can do what they like. Use cameras. Enact policies. Kick people out of the mall - permanently, without hearing or trial or recourse.

It's perfectly legal.
i assume its legal

i also assume that the owners of the mall are making a business decision based on the notion that their best customers would prefer a segregated environment.

i assume its legal

i also assume that the owners of the mall are making a business decision based on the notion that their best customers would prefer a segregated environment.

I'm sure that they collected data and had meetings to make these decisions.

And I bet they have data to show that losses were fewer from shoplifting and vandalism. And that there are now fewer assaults on other shoppers. Fewer public disturbances. Higher sales revenue.

Even before all this, I've long held that if you are concealing your face, and there isn't a weather reason to do so (sandstorm, arctic conditions), you're not to be trusted. It's going to alter my perception of you, regardless of your race or ethnic origin.

Considering that the last three people who were dissuaded from robbing me were white, I'd say that I've been fairly evenhanded about my policy of force escalation and my technique of judging strangers.

I'm sure that they collected data and had meetings to make these decisions.

And I bet they have data to show that losses were fewer from shoplifting and vandalism. And that there are now fewer assaults on other shoppers. Fewer public disturbances. Higher sales revenue.

Even before all this, I've long held that if you are concealing your face, and there isn't a weather reason to do so (sandstorm, arctic conditions), you're not to be trusted. It's going to alter my perception of you, regardless of your race or ethnic origin.

Considering that the last three people who were dissuaded from robbing me were white, I'd say that I've been fairly evenhanded about my policy of force escalation and my technique of judging strangers.

im not sure we disagree with each other. certainly people who are actively obscuring their faces need to be watched closely. perhaps even escorted out of the mall. criminal behavior shouldnt be tolerated.

thats not the same as wearing a baseball cap or having a hoodie on when they dont obscure your features.

im just not fond of discrimination. i dont like it when malls in the US try to keep out teens by passing dress codes that pretend to be anti-gang but in reality are anti-teen. this sounds like the same thing, anti "chav" masquerading as anti-crime.

Considering that the last three people who were dissuaded from robbing me were white, I'd say that I've been fairly evenhanded about my policy of force escalation and my technique of judging strangers.
it would be rather shortshighted to wait until a black person attacks you to fight back.

im not sure we disagree with each other. certainly people who are actively obscuring their faces need to be watched closely. perhaps even escorted out of the mall. criminal behavior shouldnt be tolerated.

thats not the same as wearing a baseball cap or having a hoodie on when they dont obscure your features.

im just not fond of discrimination. i dont like it when malls in the US try to keep out teens by passing dress codes that pretend to be anti-gang but in reality are anti-teen. this sounds like the same thing, anti "chav" masquerading as anti-crime.

it would be rather shortshighted to wait until a black person attacks you to fight back.

I don't wait for anyone to attack. The color of the skin is not an indicator of intent.

I always watch people's hands - not their faces or eyes - because the hands show you what they're doing. They also tend to show when the person is agitated, or nervous, or even getting ready to do something. A face can be deceiving.

Yes, they're anti-teen. Or anti-black. Or anti-lower class. But it's private property. Unless you convince their wealthy customers that it's wrong, it's not going to change.