NationStates Jolt Archive

Some people think that calling in representatives from the business world will help public school students suceed might work.

Or not.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/johnson-t1.html

Also, students are definitely not customers, because customers are not forced by law to patronize businesses, but students are forced to attend school. Customers choose when, where, and how they will, or will not, deal with businesses. Public-school students rarely have these choices, unless politicians or school authorities grant them.

So it is useless to attempt to try to apply techniques that are used in the business world, where customers are free to come and go as they please; where customers are not required to obey a vast number of rules and regulations; where customers are not subjected to fear and force by authority figures; where customers do not have to deal with bullying, hazing, violence, mind-numbing boredom, and censorship.

Thoughts?

It will be a sad day for education when public schooling is profit motivated.

[edit]However, I'm sure public education has things to learn from the world of business.

Considering that businesses are results-oriented (forget the profit part for now)...and considering that an unacceptable number of students nowdays are graduating without being able to read or reading/writing at a level FAR below what they should be...and graduating without the skills needed to enter the workforce....I think some business-like practices would ultimately benefit public schools.

But that's if you really want kids to be prepared to deal with the real world. If you don't, then being able to read/write effectively wouldn't be all that important...especially when kids can put a condom on a banana and they feel really good about their self image/self esteem.

The problem is that you can't utilize the profit motive for any organization without the countervailing force of freedom of choice. If you try to motivate schools using incentives modeled after a business or privatize schools, you'll run into the same problems that keep coming up over Water System Privatization - the community's needs will not be fulfilled. The fact is that a free market doesn't solve for situations where the good being sold is not an option - companies, or in this case schools, will do the bare minimum that the contract requires (and sometimes not even fulfill those obligations) because they know that there is no alternative to some "customers".

Couple of comments, at the end of a long school day teaching.

What is the point of schools? Contrary to popular belief, the duty of schools is first and formost to churn out the future generation of citizens, education and learning are actually secondary goals. Schools in every country are supposed to produce what? Think about it. Students are supposed to come out with skills needed by the current economy, able to understand the traditions and history of the host country, and with a firm grounding in the values of the previous generation. Schools make citzens, what type os citizens are dictated to the schools by the country and society at large.

Which, by the way, is part of the reason behind the confusion of American schools, there are a lot of compeating cultures and values who all want to drive because that is how they will survive.

The secondary goal of schools is of course education to impart needed skills within the current job field, AND (and this is why I LOVE the 'Teach what they need' cowd, they forget this part) the flexability, cognative, and developmental capabilities to devlope the next generation of the work field.

This is why the humanities are as important as 'harder' sciences, to build that flexability and analitical skills, if done right.

And finally, to turn out 'good' human beings who will be running the place. Again, that notion of what is 'good' changes, and there's about 15 compeating ideas right now.

Now could someone please tell me how a business model, which normally does not react well to rapid change and needs uniformity (How many uniform students do you know?), is supposed to be better? Especially as the primary goal is to move product as fast and as cheap as possiable?

I take that back, how is a business model supposed to cope with the goals demanded by soceity for education? Education is already built along a production line model, do we really need to add the actual line?

It will be a sad day for education when public schooling is profit motivated.
For several years now, the school district of Philadelphia has been in the hands of "Edison Schools" a FOR-PROFIT corporation. So guess what? It's already happening. Would it suprise you to know that they aren't having much luck? EVERYTHING in the US is profit motivated these days. They say that it's what capitalism is all about, right?
"Higher" education isn't faring much better either. When I was an undergrad many many years ago I remarked to my advisor that it seemed like college graduates (at the time) were basically getting out with the same kind of education that their high school counterparts were getting out with 30 years prior. He said, "Yeah, that's about right." So the way I see it, anyone coming out of college with a "Master's Degree" these days has the equivalent of a 1962 high school diploma. Congratulations! You can type memos and answer the phones! Money well spent, huh?

So the way I see it, anyone coming out of college with a "Master's Degree" these days has the equivalent of a 1962 high school diploma. Congratulations! You can type memos and answer the phones! Money well spent, huh?
Really? You mean that 1962 high school grads were learning applications and theories behind Type I and Type II educational software, pratical networking and other computer related topics? Years before the personal computer no less! They also learned congative developmental theories that are based upon brain imaging technology invented within the last 10 years?

Wow, what school was that? I'd really like to know!

Sorry, curriculm standards HAVE changed quite a bit, but for someone to claim that they had it "harder" back then or that it was somehow better, ignores a great deal of what is being covered today.

The problem is that you can't utilize the profit motive for any organization without the countervailing force of freedom of choice. If you try to motivate schools using incentives modeled after a business or privatize schools, you'll run into the same problems that keep coming up over Water System Privatization - the community's needs will not be fulfilled. The fact is that a free market doesn't solve for situations where the good being sold is not an option - companies, or in this case schools, will do the bare minimum that the contract requires (and sometimes not even fulfill those obligations) because they know that there is no alternative to some "customers".

You get a cookie! :fluffle:

That was the point here, not that school is profit-based. Business does not apply until you can choose. So the only way that this would work is to get rid of the compulsory part.

Couple of comments, at the end of a long school day teaching.

What is the point of schools? Contrary to popular belief, the duty of schools is first and formost to churn out the future generation of citizens, education and learning are actually secondary goals. Schools in every country are supposed to produce what? Think about it. Students are supposed to come out with skills needed by the current economy, able to understand the traditions and history of the host country, and with a firm grounding in the values of the previous generation. Schools make citzens, what type os citizens are dictated to the schools by the country and society at large.

Which, by the way, is part of the reason behind the confusion of American schools, there are a lot of compeating cultures and values who all want to drive because that is how they will survive.

The secondary goal of schools is of course education to impart needed skills within the current job field, AND (and this is why I LOVE the 'Teach what they need' cowd, they forget this part) the flexability, cognative, and developmental capabilities to devlope the next generation of the work field.

This is why the humanities are as important as 'harder' sciences, to build that flexability and analitical skills, if done right.

And finally, to turn out 'good' human beings who will be running the place. Again, that notion of what is 'good' changes, and there's about 15 compeating ideas right now.

Now could someone please tell me how a business model, which normally does not react well to rapid change and needs uniformity (How many uniform students do you know?), is supposed to be better? Especially as the primary goal is to move product as fast and as cheap as possiable?

I take that back, how is a business model supposed to cope with the goals demanded by soceity for education? Education is already built along a production line model, do we really need to add the actual line?

You also found the reasons that I oppose public schools. It's a way for the government to control people. It's also built on an outmoded (at least in the post-industrial world) industrial model.