NationStates Jolt Archive

Just wondering, since they are causing more trouble than it is worth, and a free and united Ireland will come about one way or another. They are only giving the RIRA and CIRA more fuel for their fire as time goes on.

And another thing why do Brits always look at Ireland with such arrogance, and ignorance? The ones i have talked to consider it a bright spot in their history, when sadly it isn't.

Northern Ireland is the good part because it is part of the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Eventually the southerner irishmen will come around.

you need to stay off the crack my friend, it has killed what little brain cell are needed for free thought!

Doesn't the Catholic population of N. Ireland have a higher birth rate than the protestants? I know that Catholics are now like 40 percent or so of the population. Perhaps if the demographic balance shifts a little more, Sinn Fein, will take over and reunite Ireland?

thats what Bill Clinton was hoping for, and it seems to be going in that direction as the protestant youth are leaving Ireland, and the Catholics are staying, so sooner or later the time will come when the Sinn Fein has control. But then what? Will a change in party result in a change in control of Ulster? I hope so, but you never know with the Brits.

Doesn't the Catholic population of N. Ireland have a higher birth rate than the protestants? I know that Catholics are now like 40 percent or so of the population. Perhaps if the demographic balance shifts a little more, Sinn Fein, will take over and reunite Ireland?



It will be a sad day when ireland is united under anything but the union jack and HRH.

thats what Bill Clinton was hoping for, and it seems to be going in that direction as the protestant youth are leaving Ireland, and the Catholics are staying, so sooner or later the time will come when the Sinn Fein has control. But then what? Will a change in party result in a change in control of Ulster? I hope so, but you never know with the Brits.
I'd guess that the orangemen wouldn't allow such a development without at least a moderate amount of civil war. The Brits would probably have a hard time explaining to the rest of the world, why Ireland can't be united if a majority of northern Irish demand it. They'd probably cave.

It will be a sad day when ireland is united under anything but the union jack and HRH.

Why?

As I understand it a majority of Northern Ireland wants to remain as part of the UK because being a minority they fear persecution from Catholics (this is how it was explained to me, it could be biased). The Catholics also fear persecution from what they percieve as a wealthier Prodestant section of the community.

When's Britain leaving Northern Ireland?
when the majority of people in NI want them to

Just wondering, since they are causing more trouble than it is worth, and a free and united Ireland will come about one way or another. They are only giving the RIRA and CIRA more fuel for their fire as time goes on.
More trouble than its worth? in what way?

And another thing why do Brits always look at Ireland with such arrogance, and ignorance? The ones i have talked to consider it a bright spot in their history, when sadly it isn't.
No...i dont think anybody really considers Northern Ireland a major success by any measure

When's Britain leaving Northern Ireland?*Sigh*

When a democratic referendum suggests the majority of people in NI want a United Ireland.

The 2001 Northern Ireland Census (http://www.nicensus2001.gov.uk/nica/common/home.jsp) shows a majority - albeit less than it used to be - is still Protestant. The majority of Protestants are Unionists. Furthermore, although the recent Westminster and council elections (see here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/vote2005/flash_map/html/map05.stm) for a break down of the majorities and shares in each constituency) have seen gains for Sinn Fein, the Democratic Unionists have the largest Parliamentary/council party, suggesting continuing support for the Union.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not a rampant Unionist. I loosely support a United Ireland. But I only support it through democratic, peaceful means, and let's face it, that's not what's happened to date. The main people that need to piss off are the IRA and similar Republican paramilitaries, and the UVF and similar Loyalist paramilitaries.

Ultimately, I don't give that much of a toss who we belong to - as long as we have peace, it doesn't matter a great deal to my everyday life.

when the majority of people in NI want them to


Indeed. As long as the majority of the people in Northern Ireland want to remain part of the United Kingdom, they have a clear right to do so.

You also have to ask yourself, does the Republic want an unemployment blackspot, filled with heavily armed criminal gangs?

Meanwhile, kudos to Samuel L. Jackson, recently interviewed by Kate Thornton on British TV about working with Colin Farrell in S.W.A.T.:

Kate: What's it like working with Colin, 'cos he is just so hot in the U.K. right now?

Samuel: He's pretty hot in the U.S. too

Kate: Yeah! but he's one of our own!

Samuel: Isn't he from Ireland?

Kate: Yeah, but we claim him 'cos Ireland is beside us.

Samuel: See, that's your problem right there. You British keep claiming people that don't belong to you. We had that problem in America too -- it was called slavery.

I second that *sigh* and the post in general.

The Irish constitution used to contain an unambiguous territorial claim to the six counties - we voted overwhelmingly to alter that. Now, the constitution states that only in the case of a democratic mandate from *both* sides of the border could the six counties ever form part of the Republic.

The whole "Brits out now" crap I see so often from Americans is pathetically ignorant.


*Sigh*

When a democratic referendum suggests the majority of people in NI [I]want a United Ireland.

The 2001 Northern Ireland Census (http://www.nicensus2001.gov.uk/nica/common/home.jsp) shows a majority - albeit less than it used to be - is still Protestant. The majority of Protestants are Unionists. Furthermore, although the recent Westminster and council elections (see here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/vote2005/flash_map/html/map05.stm) for a break down of the majorities and shares in each constituency) have seen gains for Sinn Fein, the Democratic Unionists have the largest Parliamentary/council party, suggesting continuing support for the Union.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not a rampant Unionist. I loosely support a United Ireland. But I only support it through democratic, peaceful means, and let's face it, that's not what's happened to date. The main people that need to piss off are the IRA and similar Republican paramilitaries, and the UVF and similar Loyalist paramilitaries.

Ultimately, I don't give that much of a toss who we belong to - as long as we have peace, it doesn't matter a great deal to my everyday life.

Just wondering, since they are causing more trouble than it is worth, and a free and united Ireland will come about one way or another. They are only giving the RIRA and CIRA more fuel for their fire as time goes on.

And another thing why do Brits always look at Ireland with such arrogance, and ignorance? The ones i have talked to consider it a bright spot in their history, when sadly it isn't.

Northern Ireland is part of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Asking when Britain is going to leave Northern Ireland is a bit like asking when the USA is leaving Florida.

I don't think I've ever heard any Brit say Northern Ireland is a success. I certainly don't believe it's a bright spot in our history, so your statement that "Brits always look at Ireland with such arrogance and ignorance" is a wrong assumption and a big generalisation.

Northern Ireland is part of Britain. Asking when Britain is going to leave Northern Ireland is a bit like asking when the US is leaving Florida.

No it isn't. It is part of the UK, and part of the British Isles, but 'britain' isn't really a well defined term: in most cases it is short hand for 'Great Britain' - the landmass of Scotland, Wales and England.

Mercy, Peace and FREEDOM are words the English have but do not understand. Englands history is one of the most criminal in the world, the Nazis didnt even cause this much hate.
You invade nations, Rape, Murder and Steal from the people, this is something you block out but the rest of the world still remembers.


You had one English officer who had the sence to say to PM George once:
Go all out or get out!
Let's just hope that you have others among you with that much sence in their heads.
Your kingdom is falling, Northern Ireland will be free from your tyrant rule and re-united with Ireland, Scotland is fast becoming more and more independant and Wales will follow.

No it isn't. It is part of the UK, and part of the British Isles, but 'britain' isn't really a well defined term: in most cases it is short hand for 'Great Britain' - the landmass of Scotland, Wales and England.

You're correct. That was lazyness on my part and I tried to correct my mistake when I realised it -- right after I hit the post button. (A bad habit I have is writing posts too quickly and hitting post, then going back and editing my mistakes straight away.) But this time jolt went bezerk and wouldn't let me in for ages, so I couldn't correct it. Dratted database malfunctions. What I meant to say was that Northern Ireland is -- by choice -- part of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

Mercy, Peace and FREEDOM are words the English have but do not understand. Englands history is one of the most criminal in the world, the Nazis didnt even cause this much hate.
You invade nations, Rape, Murder and Steal from the people, this is something you block out but the rest of the world still remembers.


You had one English officer who had the sence to say to PM George once:
Go all out or get out!
Let's just hope that you have others among you with that much sence in their heads.
Your kingdom is falling, Northern Ireland will be free from your tyrant rule and re-united with Ireland, Scotland is fast becoming more and more independant and Wales will follow.

Have you watched "In the Name of the Father" or "Patriot" as I'm seeing alot of hostility here to the Brits.....we didn't invade Iceland did we? *Goes to check history books*

Mercy, Peace and FREEDOM are words the English have but do not understand. Englands history is one of the most criminal in the world, the Nazis didnt even cause this much hate.
You invade nations, Rape, Murder and Steal from the people, this is something you block out but the rest of the world still remembers.


You had one English officer who had the sence to say to PM George once:
Go all out or get out!
Let's just hope that you have others among you with that much sence in their heads.
Your kingdom is falling, Northern Ireland will be free from your tyrant rule and re-united with Ireland, Scotland is fast becoming more and more independant and Wales will follow.

Some of what you say is true, our imperialist history is pretty nasty and nothing to be proud of. Some of our recent actions (namely invading Iraq) have been pretty sucky also. But most of the rest of what you say is generalised, misinformed, misrepresented tripe. I understand "Mercy, Peace and FREEDOM" very well, thank you, but then I'm only about half English by descent so maybe it's that nice Scottish blood flowing through my veins that keeps me from being a violent, ruthless bitch. :) After all, I haven't "Raped, Murdured or Stolen" from anyone recently.

Mercy, Peace and FREEDOM are words the English have but do not understand. Englands history is one of the most criminal in the world, the Nazis didnt even cause this much hate.
You invade nations, Rape, Murder and Steal from the people, this is something you block out but the rest of the world still remembers.


You had one English officer who had the sence to say to PM George once:
Go all out or get out!
Let's just hope that you have others among you with that much sence in their heads.
Your kingdom is falling, Northern Ireland will be free from your tyrant rule and re-united with Ireland, Scotland is fast becoming more and more independant and Wales will follow.

And most of the successful systems of democracy in the world outside of Europe are based on ours. We left Malaysia peacefully and it has become hugely socially successful; if you want to see an example of a successful democratic Islamic state, look there.

Scottish and Welsh nationalism are jokes. I'd love to see them try it. They'd hurt the English economy by doing so, but the SNP and Plaid Cymru wouldn't have the first idea to run the country, even if they were countries economically worth running on their own. England already supports them both plenty. Scotland and Wales would become economic disasters if they decided they wanted to become wholly independent.

Northern Ireland stays with the UK because the majorty of its residents want it to, and no amount of "You're enslaving people!" bullshit propaganda will change that. For fuck's sake. We did stuff wrong in the past, okay, but while we're having a go at Imperialism, please, feel free to attack the French, the Germans, the Belgians, the Spanish, the Portuguese, the Japanese, Chinese, Russians, and hell, who could forget the greatest Imperialists of the 20th Century, the Americans. I say again: Northern Ireland stays with the UK because most of its residents want it to. It's called democracy, and we spread it around the world.

And by the way, North Island, you just lost. It's called Godwin's Law.

You had one English officer who had the sence to say to PM George once:
Go all out or get out!
Let's just hope that you have others among you with that much sence in their heads.
Your kingdom is falling, Northern Ireland will be free from your tyrant rule and re-united with Ireland, Scotland is fast becoming more and more independant and Wales will follow.
you really dont know that much about Northern Ireland, or the UK for that matter, do you?

you really dont know that much about Northern Ireland, or the UK for that matter, do you?

You almost sound surprised.

N. Ireland is an inalienable part of the United Kingdom. They're not a "colony". As an earlier poster said, the majority of the people want to stay in the UK. It's fine if you want to bash imperialism, everyone realises that imperial UK did some bad things, so did the Belgians, the Spanish, the French and the Americans but don't group everything together.

And by the way, North Island, you just lost. It's called Godwin's Law.

Godwin's Law doesn't determine who wins or loses: it states a probability -

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

Have you watched "In the Name of the Father" or "Patriot" as I'm seeing alot of hostility here to the Brits.....we didn't invade Iceland did we? *Goes to check history books*
No hostility for the 'Brits' just the English.
You fail to see that Icelanders are Norse-Celtic.

Godwin's Law doesn't determine who wins or loses: it states a probability -

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

My apologies. Indeed, strictly speaking, this is Godwin's Law. However, the Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law) gives us this:

Many people have extended Godwin's law to imply that the invoking of the Nazis as a debating tactic (in any argument not directly related to World War II or the Holocaust) automatically loses the argument, simply because the nature of these events is such that any comparison to any event less serious than genocide, ethnic cleansing or extinction is invalid and in poor taste.

In this vein, I was working on a common variation on the law.

Some of what you say is true, our imperialist history is pretty nasty and nothing to be proud of. Some of our recent actions (namely invading Iraq) have been pretty sucky also. But most of the rest of what you say is generalised, misinformed, misrepresented tripe. I understand "Mercy, Peace and FREEDOM" very well, thank you, but then I'm only about half English by descent so maybe it's that nice Scottish blood flowing through my veins that keeps me from being a violent, ruthless bitch. :) After all, I haven't "Raped, Murdured or Stolen" from anyone recently.
;) Good

N. Ireland is an inalienable part of the United Kingdom. They're not a "colony". As an earlier poster said, the majority of the people want to stay in the UK. It's fine if you want to bash imperialism, everyone realises that imperial UK did some bad things, so did the Belgians, the Spanish, the French and the Americans but don't group everything together.

Well, it is kind of a colony, albeit a pretty old one. Ulster was planted with a raft of staunch, not to say swivel-eyed, Protestants in the 17th century, mostly from Lowland Scotland. They also got some of the worst Border headbangers of the time, like the Grahams -- some of whom cunningly disguised themselves by turning their names around and becoming the "Mahargs" (now often known as MacHargs or McHargs).

One important thing to remember, though: history is all very well, but you don't want to live in it.

The day my home becomes property of the Republicans, is the day I create my own terrorist force against the irish republicans. But I cant see this happening, if you watched the local elections you would know that unionism remains much stonger than nationalism and republicanism here.

I will remain a Democratic Unionist Party voter for life!

No hostility for the 'Brits' just the English.
You fail to see that Icelanders are Norse-Celtic.

You do, of course, realise that the majority of 'Brits' living in Northern ireland are of Scottish descent*, rather than English?






* leaving aside the fact that said Scots were originally mostly of Irish descent.

The day my home becomes property of the Republicans, is the day I create my own terrorist force against the irish republicans. But I cant see this happening, if you watched the local elections you would know that unionism remains much stonger than nationalism and republicanism here.

I will remain a Democratic Unionist Party voter for life!

Case Study, North Island. The Northern Irish do not all live in fear and terror of the SAS coming for them in the night.

No hostility for the 'Brits' just the English.
You fail to see that Icelanders are Norse-Celtic.

No, I don't. I think that if France can forgive Germany for the second world war, you could forgive England for past wrongs against people who have a similer culture and heritage to yourself.

I could hate Norway for the Vikings that tried to invade in the 11th century, but that would just be stupid.

Well, it is kind of a colony, albeit a pretty old one. Ulster was planted with a raft of staunch, not to say swivel-eyed, Protestants in the 17th century, mostly from Lowland Scotland. They also got some of the worst Border headbangers of the time, like the Grahams -- some of whom cunningly disguised themselves by turning their names around and becoming the "Mahargs" (now often known as MacHargs or McHargs).

One important thing to remember, though: history is all very well, but you don't want to live in it.
yea, but alot of the people planted in Ulster were in turn descended from the Scots who originally came from....Ulster

I will remain a Democratic Unionist Party voter for life!
Big Ian would be proud ;)

No hostility for the 'Brits' just the English.
You fail to see that Icelanders are Norse-Celtic.

No, I don't. I think that if France can forgive Germany for the second world war, you could forgive England for past wrongs against people who have a similer culture and heritage to yourself.

I could hate Norway for the Vikings that tried to invade in the 11th century, but that would just be stupid.

You do, of course, realise that the majority of 'Brits' living in Northern ireland are of Scottish descent*, rather than English?

* leaving aside the fact that said Scots were originally mostly of Irish descent.

And this "Brit" lives in England and has a goodly proportion of Scottish ancestors, and is therefore of Irish descent! Therefore I must hate the English! But no, wait... I'm part English! What will I do! I hate myself! All the past wrongs torment my inner English and Scottish selves, who battle each other within my very soul! My Welsh and Flemish parts watch in amusement and drink beer! :p

Northern Ireland is part of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". Asking when Britain is going to leave Northern Ireland is a bit like asking when the USA is leaving Florida.
Actually, it's much closer to the puerto rico situation. There are three factions there. Those that want us out, those that want to become a state, and those that want to stay a protectorate.

... if you watched the local elections you would know that unionism remains much stonger than nationalism and republicanism here.

However, when one looks at the amount of votes cast for DUP and UUP candidates, rather than just who won the seats it becomes quite clear that Unionism is a far from united force*, with one third of Unionists voting for the UUP and two thirds for the DUP. Even looking at the basic seat results, the combined Unionist wins (10 seats) do not vastly outnumber the Republican/Nationalist wins (8 seats).



* as if this wasn't blatantly obvious anyhow.

My Welsh and Flemish parts watch in amusement and drink beer! :p

High-quality Belgian beer, but drunk warm ;)

And most of the successful systems of democracy in the world outside of Europe are based on ours. We left Malaysia peacefully and it has become hugely socially successful; if you want to see an example of a successful democratic Islamic state, look there.

Scottish and Welsh nationalism are jokes. I'd love to see them try it. They'd hurt the English economy by doing so, but the SNP and Plaid Cymru wouldn't have the first idea to run the country, even if they were countries economically worth running on their own. England already supports them both plenty. Scotland and Wales would become economic disasters if they decided they wanted to become wholly independent.

Northern Ireland stays with the UK because the majorty of its residents want it to, and no amount of "You're enslaving people!" bullshit propaganda will change that. For fuck's sake. We did stuff wrong in the past, okay, but while we're having a go at Imperialism, please, feel free to attack the French, the Germans, the Belgians, the Spanish, the Portuguese, the Japanese, Chinese, Russians, and hell, who could forget the greatest Imperialists of the 20th Century, the Americans. I say again: Northern Ireland stays with the UK because most of its residents want it to. It's called democracy, and we spread it around the world.

And by the way, North Island, you just lost. It's called Godwin's Law.
I lost because what you say must be true, right? Give me a break, thats just English 'wanker' talk. How the hell can you claim that YOU as in you ENGLAND spread democracy?
The protestant people in NI were moved there by England to try to 'cleans' NI, how is that unlike what the Nazis did? It's funny how you allways get defensive when truth slaps you in the face. Take it like a man. Your people in the past were murdering bastards. You would be amazed how many people and nations really hate you.
I do not hate the English people or land, just your history and government.


Also, why is it that when people attack English history the English allways think it comes from a movie or something? People can read history you know.

High-quality Belgian beer, but drunk warm ;)

Either that, or real ale. ;)

yea, but alot of the people planted in Ulster were in turn descended from the Scots who originally came from....Ulster

Wee-hell, now you're getting genetickal. The Lowland Scots, particularly those from around the Border regions, would have had perhaps some Scottish (i.e. Irish) blood in them, but most of their ancestors would either have been Britons (i.e. Welsh) from places like the Kingdom of Strathclyde, English (i.e. Germans) from the Anglian settlements up the east coast and into Lothian, or Pictish (i.e. don't ask), from whereverthehell the Picts were from originally. Perhaps there would be something left over from whoever got there before the Picts, too, along with bits from across the Roman empire, and with a smattering of Scandinavian thrown in to complete the smorgasbord effect. Ultimately, of course, we're all African. :)

No, I don't. I think that if France can forgive Germany for the second world war, you could forgive England for past wrongs against people who have a similer culture and heritage to yourself.

I could hate Norway for the Vikings that tried to invade in the 11th century, but that would just be stupid.

Bloody Sunday wasnt many centurys ago. Come on, it's not like it has ended.
You have avalid point wich I agree with and respect.

If someone wants to hate the Vikings that were in England then they really should hate the DANES. Many types of Vikings Norse, Danes, Fins, Swedes... The Danish ruled England once.

Either that, or real ale. ;)


Mmmm, real ale.

It's amazing how quickly one develops a taste for it.

Better still, Guinness. And none of that extra cold nonsense either.

Where's the Hound of Ulster himself, Cuchulain (sp?), when you need him?!

(Kuh-HOO-lun)

The protestant people in NI were moved there by England to try to 'cleans' NI, how is that unlike what the Nazis did?

Nope. Most of the Protestant people in NI are descendents of people given the choice to move there from Scotland by the Scottish King James VI, in order to create less problems in their homeland.

Case Study, North Island. The Northern Irish do not all live in fear and terror of the SAS coming for them in the night.
Did I say that they did. NO!!!

The protestant people in NI were moved there by England to try to 'cleans' NI, how is that unlike what the Nazis did?
surely you mean mainly Scottish people made able to move to Ulster by a Scottish king of the UK?

I lost because what you say must be true, right?

Actually, I was just having a bit of fun there, mate :p

Give me a break, thats just English 'wanker' talk. How the hell can you claim that YOU as in you ENGLAND spread democracy?

The United Kingdom, Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Jamaica, India, Malaysia, and Trinidad and Tobago all work on the Westminster system. There are more, I just can't bring them to mind right now.

The protestant people in NI were moved there by England to try to 'cleans' NI, how is that unlike what the Nazis did?

A whole bunch of Scots moved to NI to avoid trouble back home. The Nazis committed genocide. Your ball.

It's funny how you allways get defensive when truth slaps you in the face. Take it like a man. Your people in the past were murdering bastards. You would be amazed how many people and nations really hate you.
I do not hate the English people or land, just your history and government.

Fine. You have every right to. I accept that Britain has done terrible things in the past. What I will not accept is you claiming either A) It's special in this, B) It's like or ever was like Nazi Germany, C) It is currently oppressing Northern Ireland.

Also, why is it that when people attack English history the English allways think it comes from a movie or something? People can read history you know.

Ah, in that regard, we're far more used to the ROW taking its opinions from Hollywood than from history books. Also, your sheer fanaticism, use of the Nazi comparison and belief that the British committed some kind of resettlement program in Ireland lead people to not take you seriously.

Where's the Hound of Ulster himself, Cuchulain (sp?), when you need him?!

(Kuh-HOO-lun)

Probably off stealing cattle somewhere, as is his wont.

Where's the Hound of Ulster himself, Cuchulain (sp?), when you need him?!

(Kuh-HOO-lun)
no...he didnt like people from the rest of Ireland trying to take bits of Ulster either

surely you mean mainly Scottish people made able to move to Ulster by a Scottish king of the UK?

Technically, James I (James VI of Scotland) wasn't the king of the UK, but rather the Kingdom of Great Britain (post 1604, for the year before that he was King of Scotland and King of England).

I lost because what you say must be true, right? Give me a break, thats just English 'wanker' talk. How the hell can you claim that YOU as in you ENGLAND spread democracy?
The protestant people in NI were moved there by England to try to 'cleans' NI, how is that unlike what the Nazis did? It's funny how you allways get defensive when truth slaps you in the face. Take it like a man. Your people in the past were murdering bastards. You would be amazed how many people and nations really hate you.
I do not hate the English people or land, just your history and government.


Also, why is it that when people attack English history the English allways think it comes from a movie or something? People can read history you know.
Actually the Scots were moved to NI because there was a mini ice age in Scotland at the time. There were sightings of Polar Bears in North Scotland!

our 6th grade English teacher read The Hound of Ulster to us. I loved that book... Cuchulain was one great warrior (in the book at least).

surely you mean mainly Scottish people made able to move to Ulster by a Scottish king of the UK?
England is a larger nation and was allways had more to say in 'UK' matters.
I'm just going were you are going, if the Eglish do something bad it's the UK if the King was of Scottish origins it was the Scotts fault etc.

Technically, James I (James VI of Scotland) wasn't the king of the UK, but rather the Kingdom of Great Britain (post 1604, for the year before that he was King of Scotland and King of England).
you and your nitpicking...

Actually the Scots were moved to NI because there was a mini ice age in Scotland at the time. There were sightings of Polar Bears in North Scotland!

Actually, they were just drunk highlanders in white coats roaring they accidentally dropped the last bottle of Glenfiddich. Their wives chucked them out for coming home drunk.

Well, it hasn't always been the Glen of Tranquility.

P.S. Friendly poke, Scots, no offence ;)

So when the U.S. voted for George Bush to be president the news headlines read: OH NO! or How can 8million people be so wrong. I was wondering what the headlines read across the world when Tony Blair was voted back in because him and Bush should be twins.

England is a larger nation and was allways had more to say in 'UK' matters.

The Uk didn't exist at that point, but you did at least put it in inverted commas.


I'm just going were you are going, if the Eglish do something bad it's the UK if the King was of Scottish origins it was the Scotts fault etc.

Question for you: why did the plantation of Ulster take place?

Actually, they were just drunk highlanders in white coats roaring they accidentally dropped the last bottle of Glenfiddich. Their wives chucked them out for coming home drunk.

Well, it hasn't always been the Glen of Tranquility.

P.S. Friendly poke, Scots, no offence ;)

You know, that makes so much more sense. ;)

So far on this thread we have had:
* People from the Republic
* People from the North
and
* People from the rest of the UK

all explaining that the "Brits Out" mentality is flawed.


And *still* they shriek.

Why?

Why is it that no matter how often the "Irish problem" comes up in conversation online, no matter how many times it is explained, they *still* come out with the same nonsense?

England is a larger nation and was allways had more to say in 'UK' matters.
I'm just going were you are going, if the Eglish do something bad it's the UK if the King was of Scottish origins it was the Scotts fault etc.

His statement was a heck of a lot more accurate than your "The protestant people in NI were moved there by England to try to 'cleans' NI". At least it actually had some historical truth.

England is a larger nation and was allways had more to say in 'UK' matters.
I'm just going were you are going, if the Eglish do something bad it's the UK if the King was of Scottish origins it was the Scotts fault etc.
doesnt change the fact that James I/VI was Scottish, and that the majority of planters came from Scotland...and had their origins in Ulster.

So when the U.S. voted for George Bush to be president the news headlines read: OH NO! or How can 8million people be so wrong. I was wondering what the headlines read across the world when Tony Blair was voted back in because him and Bush should be twins.


Only 100,000 people or so even had the chance to vote for Blair, so that argument is a little flawed.

The headline in question, as an aside, read "How can 59,054,087 people be so DUMB?" and appeared in the Daily Mirror.

Why is it that no matter how often the "Irish problem" comes up in conversation online, no matter how many times it is explained, they *still* come out with the same nonsense?

The Scots (originally Irish, but by now Scotch) were at this time inhabiting Ireland, having driven the Irish (Picts) out of Scotland; while the Picts (originally Scots) were now Irish (living in brackets) and vice versa. It is essential to keep these distinctions clearly in mind (and verce visa).

*

Gladstone spent his declining years trying to guess the answer to the Irish Question; unfortunately, whenever he was getting warm, the Irish secretly changed the Question.

Actually, I was just having a bit of fun there, mate :p
Okay, :D



The United Kingdom, Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Jamaica, India, Malaysia, and Trinidad and Tobago all work on the Westminster system. There are more, I just can't bring them to mind right now.
You know that Ireland had to go to war with you to get freedom right, thats the case with most of your former nations. People had to fight and die for it and you claim its Britian to thank for the freedoms they have. Thats kind of hypocritical.



A whole bunch of Scots moved to NI to avoid trouble back home. The Nazis committed genocide. Your ball.
If all nation in union with Britain are as one nation then all your fighting and killing in Ireland, America, South Africa etc. can be considerd genocide dont you think. The Nazis just did it faster and its really not that long ago since it happend so we still remember that but not much further back in history.



Fine. You have every right to. I accept that Britain has done terrible things in the past. What I will not accept is you claiming either A) It's special in this, B) It's like or ever was like Nazi Germany, C) It is currently oppressing Northern Ireland.
Thank you, at least you have the 'balls' to admitt wrong doing. Very good. Your choises arent on the money.



Ah, in that regard, we're far more used to the ROW taking its opinions from Hollywood than from history books. Also, your sheer fanaticism, use of the Nazi comparison and belief that the British committed some kind of resettlement program in Ireland lead people to not take you seriously.
Fanaticism??? The truth is to be considerd fanaticism?

So when the U.S. voted for George Bush to be president the news headlines read: OH NO! or How can 8million people be so wrong. I was wondering what the headlines read across the world when Tony Blair was voted back in.

"Who cares?" Probably. ;) We have no influence anymore and are practically the 51st state now anyway. :headbang:

Question for you: why did the plantation of Ulster take place?
The Plantation of Ulster began in the 17th century when English and Scottish Protestants settled on land confiscated from the Gaelic Irish.
King James I believed that colonising Ulster would quell rebellion and win over the 'rude and barbarous Irish' to 'civility' and Protestantism.

You know that Ireland had to go to war with you to get freedom right, thats the case with most of your former nations. People had to fight and die for it and you claim its Britian to thank for the freedoms they have. Thats kind of hypocritical.

Yes, I know they did. But of the nations I quoted, only some of them had any fighting to do.

If all nation in union with Britain are as one nation then all your fighting and killing in Ireland, America, South Africa etc. can be considerd genocide dont you think. The Nazis just did it faster and its really not that long ago since it happend so we still remember that but not much further back in history.

...we oppressed people for their resources, money, and for the glory of having an empire. The Nazis killed them for the sake of racial cleansing. Please, stop trying to draw comparisons between the two. We never committed genocide.

Your choises arent on the money.

Not sure what you're referring to here, mate.

Fanaticism??? The truth is to be considerd fanaticism?

It's not the truth or falsity of your statement, it's the... style. The anger.

Fine. You have every right to. I accept that Britain has done terrible things in the past. What I will not accept is you claiming either A) It's special in this, B) It's like or ever was like Nazi Germany, C) It is currently oppressing Northern Ireland.



Thank you, at least you have the 'balls' to admitt wrong doing. Very good. Your choises arent on the money.

Would you care to explain to me exactly how Northern Ireland is currently being oppressed?

So far on this thread we have had:
* People from the Republic
* People from the North
and
* People from the rest of the UK

all explaining that the "Brits Out" mentality is flawed.


And *still* they shriek.

Why?

Why is it that no matter how often the "Irish problem" comes up in conversation online, no matter how many times it is explained, they *still* come out with the same nonsense?

I'll give you the reason a friend of mine used to offend everyone he possibly could:
"Four hundred years ago the people of Northern Ireland decided to have a fight, but they said, 'If we fight for no reason, we'll be just like the Welsh! We don't want to be like the Welsh, so why will we fight?'
So they sat and they thought and finally one said, 'Lets fight over our race!'
but the others said, 'No! We're the same race! We have the same hair, the same eyes, the same skin! We would never who we should be fighting!'
So they sat and they thought and finally one said, 'Lets fight for our people!' but the others said, 'No! We're the same people! We have the same houses, the same habits, the same language! We would never who we should be fighting!'
So they sat and they thought and finally one said, 'Lets fight for our religion!'

And they have been ever since."

Would you care to explain to me exactly how Northern Ireland is currently being oppressed?

Help, help, I'm being oppressed!

Would you care to explain to me exactly how Northern Ireland is currently being oppressed?
If your asking me then let me be VERY clear on this....
I NEVER SAID THAT THEY ARE CURRENTLY BEING OPPRESSED!!!!!

Scottish/Irish history question:

The actual "Scots" really came from Northeastern Ireland, right?

...as the native inhabitants of Scotland were the Picts.

I'll give you the reason a friend of mine used to offend everyone he possibly could:
"Four hundred years ago the people of Northern Ireland decided to have a fight, but they said, 'If we fight for no reason, we'll be just like the Welsh! We don't want to be like the Welsh, so why will we fight?'
So they sat and they thought and finally one said, 'Lets fight over our race!'
but the others said, 'No! We're the same race! We have the same hair, the same eyes, the same skin! We would never who we should be fighting!'
So they sat and they thought and finally one said, 'Lets fight for our people!' but the others said, 'No! We're the same people! We have the same houses, the same habits, the same language! We would never who we should be fighting!'
So they sat and they thought and finally one said, 'Lets fight for our religion!'

And they have been ever since."
that cant possibly be the end of the discussion...they werent fighting over religion either

I'll give you the reason a friend of mine used to offend everyone he possibly could:
"Four hundred years ago the people of Northern Ireland decided to have a fight, but they said, 'If we fight for no reason, we'll be just like the Welsh! We don't want to be like the Welsh, so why will we fight?'
So they sat and they thought and finally one said, 'Lets fight over our race!'
but the others said, 'No! We're the same race! We have the same hair, the same eyes, the same skin! We would never who we should be fighting!'
So they sat and they thought and finally one said, 'Lets fight for our people!' but the others said, 'No! We're the same people! We have the same houses, the same habits, the same language! We would never who we should be fighting!'
So they sat and they thought and finally one said, 'Lets fight for our religion!'

And they have been ever since."
You know its not a war of religion right?

The Plantation of Ulster began in the 17th century when English and Scottish Protestants settled on land confiscated from the Gaelic Irish.

The Scots out numbering the English by about four or five to one.

King James I believed that colonising Ulster would quell rebellion and win over the 'rude and barbarous Irish' to 'civility' and Protestantism.

James I, rather than James VI - so you accept now that the prime mover behind it was a Scot?

The main reasons for plantation in Ulster are twofold, as you say it was believed that the influx of people from great Britain would decrease the power of the irsh, but also it was seen as an opportunity to remove problematic people and troublemakers from Scotland. It was a twofold method of strengthening the grip of the monarch over the people, wherever they may be located. It had as much to do with rising dissent in Scotland as it did with the ongoing threat of rebellion in Ireland.

Your kingdom is falling, Northern Ireland will be free from your tyrant rule and re-united with Ireland, Scotland is fast becoming more and more independant and Wales will follow.

If your asking me then let me be VERY clear on this....
I NEVER SAID THAT THEY ARE CURRENTLY BEING OPPRESSED!!!!!

Ahem. "Tyranny?"

If your asking me then let me be VERY clear on this....
I NEVER SAID THAT THEY ARE CURRENTLY BEING OPPRESSED!!!!!

Okay, so what is the problem then if the people of Northern Ireland are not being oppressed and judicial processes to determine the guilty parties in such events as Bloody Sunday are ongoing?

If your asking me then let me be VERY clear on this....
I NEVER SAID THAT THEY ARE CURRENTLY BEING OPPRESSED!!!!!
you said Northern Ireland was under tyrant rule. same difference.

Would you care to explain to me exactly how Northern Ireland is currently being oppressed?

Well, there's a wide variety of criminal gangs wandering around -- the Real IRA, the Continuity IRA, "Classic" IRA, I-Can't-Believe-It's-Not-The IRA, and a whole bunch of tattoo'd dingbat groups with "V"s and "F"s in their initials -- literally getting away with murder. Now, if James the VI and I were heere, he'd round them up and ship them off to somewhere else even worse -- Iraq, probably. Sadly, we lack leaders with his kind of vision, and so Ulster's pangs continue. :(

I-Can't-Believe-It's-Not-The IRA
that made me laugh...brilliant... :)

Well, there's a wide variety of criminal gangs wandering around -- the Real IRA, the Continuity IRA, "Classic" IRA, I-Can't-Believe-It's-Not-The IRA, and a whole bunch of tattoo'd dingbat groups with "V"s and "F"s in their initials -- literally getting away with murder. Now, if James the VI and I were heere, he'd round them up and ship them off to somewhere else even worse -- Iraq, probably. Sadly, we lack leaders with his kind of vision, and so Ulster's pangs continue. :(

Well, interestingly enough, conscription was never introduced in Northern Ireland, despite being in operation in the rest of the UK: I believe the policy was that there was trouble enough with all the ne'erdowells without actually teaching them how to fight properly.

You know its not a war of religion right?
Umm...actually for a lot of people it is. Ian Paisley springs to mind.

The point of the story is they don't really have any reason to be fighting amongst themselves. They just are.

What the British do not seem to understand is this. YOU DO NOT HAVE AN EMPIRE ANYMORE. Queen Elizabeth II still claims she is the empress of Canada, India, South Africa, New Zealand, and many others. She does not even have power in her own country anymore.

Also, the English took control of Ireland illegally and still hold Northern Ireland illegally. I should know. I am the grandson of Sinn Fein Political Activist Mary Nelis.

What about Bloody Sunday and the Battle of the Bogside? The Brits outlawed the marches and then fired on us when we marched anyway. How do you explain that? The Brits killed 13 people on Bloody Sunday and many more in other events. That is nothing that can be forgiven easily.

REMEMBER DROGHEDA (9/11,1649) 3,000 dead.

[QUOTE=Bodies Without Organs]James I, rather than James VI - so you accept now that the prime mover behind it was a Scot? QUOTE]
He was the same man, I and IV. I accept he was Scottish but he was also king of England yes?

Umm...actually for a lot of people it is. Ian Paisley springs to mind.

Well, actually, despite his blood and thunder rhetoric and firm insistence that the Pope is quite literally the anti-christ, Paisley has quite a good reputation for looking after the interests of Catholic members of his constituency. A case of hate the sin, not the sinner...

i am of irish descent and apparently one of my anscestors was hung for rebeling against the british, i wish that britain could just give it up, and become a modern natioon, it has no empire and why wont we just get along with the EU

What the British do not seem to understand is this. YOU DO NOT HAVE AN EMPIRE ANYMORE.
:D
Best quote of the thread? I'm sorry, it's just I've seen world-class arrogance in America, China, and (through the news) in the old USSR......it's just hard to accept the same level of arrogance from, well, an island in a pond?

What the British do not seem to understand is this. YOU DO NOT HAVE AN EMPIRE ANYMORE.

We understand that full well, thank you. I have never met a British person labouring under that particular delusion.

Also, the English took control of Ireland illegally and still hold Northern Ireland illegally. I should know. I am the grandson of Sinn Fein Political Activist Mary Nelis.

Your grandad doesn't mean you must be right. What precisely is illegal about Northern Ireland being part of the United Kingdom?

Also, the English took control of Ireland illegally and still hold Northern Ireland illegally.

Illegal under what international laws? When the Normans first invaded there were no such standards.

What about Bloody Sunday and the Battle of the Bogside? The Brits outlawed the marches and then fired on us when we marched anyway. How do you explain that? The Brits killed 13 people on Bloody Sunday and many more in other events. That is nothing that can be forgiven easily.

Indeed.

REMEMBER DROGHEDA (9/11,1649) 3,000 dead.

A dreadful period of Irish history, but such treatment given to the defenders and inhabitants of a city which refused to surrender to a sieging army was pretty much standard practice not only in Ireland but throughout Europe at that time.

What the British do not seem to understand is this. YOU DO NOT HAVE AN EMPIRE ANYMORE. Queen Elizabeth II still claims she is the empress of Canada, India, South Africa, New Zealand, and many others. She does not even have power in her own country anymore.

Also, the English took control of Ireland illegally and still hold Northern Ireland illegally. I should know. I am the grandson of Sinn Fein Political Activist Mary Nelis.

What about Bloody Sunday and the Battle of the Bogside? The Brits outlawed the marches and then fired on us when we marched anyway. How do you explain that? The Brits killed 13 people on Bloody Sunday and many more in other events. That is nothing that can be forgiven easily.

REMEMBER DROGHEDA (9/11,1649) 3,000 dead.

OK. So, by precisely the same arguments, the various European settlers took over the entire North and South American continents illegally, and still hold them illegally. Remember Wounded Knee, etc etc etc. Remember Omagh, too, for that matter. Human history is practically nothing but a litany of murder. Welcome to Planet Earth. Please drive carefully.

Also, the English took control of Ireland illegally and still hold Northern Ireland illegally. I should know. I am the grandson of Sinn Fein Political Activist Mary Nelis.
and what an entirely unbiased opinion im sure you have. tell me, whats illegal about governing an area of land in accordance with the wishes of the majority of the population of that area of land?

What about Bloody Sunday and the Battle of the Bogside? The Brits outlawed the marches and then fired on us when we marched anyway. How do you explain that? The Brits killed 13 people on Bloody Sunday and many more in other events. That is nothing that can be forgiven easily.
and remember the 2,500-odd innocent people killed by the various permutations of the IRA

lets face it, at the end of the day nobody is going to come out of the whole thing smelling of roses, so theres no point in dwelling on the past - its time to move on or else NI will never get over itself

No hostility for the 'Brits' just the English.
You fail to see that Icelanders are Norse-Celtic.

Now thats a tenious link to hate the English.

What the British do not seem to understand is this. YOU DO NOT HAVE AN EMPIRE ANYMORE.We understand that full well, thank you. I have never met a British person labouring under that particular delusion.

Sohno Real, do you not know any Daily Mail readers?

Your grandad doesn't mean you must be right.

Nor, indeed, for all of you "My family's from Ireland so I hate the English" types, does it mean you have to follow in their footsteps. Although, Sonho, with a name like Mary, I imagine it was the dude's gradmother.

What the British do not seem to understand is this. YOU DO NOT HAVE AN EMPIRE ANYMORE. Queen Elizabeth II still claims she is the empress of Canada, India, South Africa, New Zealand, and many others. She does not even have power in her own country anymore.

Also, the English took control of Ireland illegally and still hold Northern Ireland illegally. I should know. I am the grandson of Sinn Fein Political Activist Mary Nelis.

What about Bloody Sunday and the Battle of the Bogside? The Brits outlawed the marches and then fired on us when we marched anyway. How do you explain that? The Brits killed 13 people on Bloody Sunday and many more in other events. That is nothing that can be forgiven easily.

REMEMBER DROGHEDA (9/11,1649) 3,000 dead.
And I am the grandson of an IRA Flying Columnist. So?
And what of the IRA bombings in England? Are you more dead if the person that killed you was paid by a government instead of a private organisation?
Ooohhh. Drogheda.
Cromwell was an evil bastard who did as much harm in England as he did here. Maybe more.

Just wondering, since they are causing more trouble than it is worth, and a free and united Ireland will come about one way or another. They are only giving the RIRA and CIRA more fuel for their fire as time goes on.

And another thing why do Brits always look at Ireland with such arrogance, and ignorance? The ones i have talked to consider it a bright spot in their history, when sadly it isn't.

What on earth makes you think we want or care about NI? Ulster can go hang for all I care. The Republic can HAVE it if they want.

In fact, you wanna know the reason NI hasn't been reunited with the rest of Eire? BECAUSE IRELAND DOESN'T WANT YOU GUYS EITHER.

(And if the OP is not himself Northern Irish, or even Southern Irish, how about he goes and gets himself a life? Or better yet, actually visit the country his distant ancestors were desperate to leave?)

i am of irish descent and apparently one of my anscestors was hung for rebeling against the british, i wish that britain could just give it up, and become a modern natioon, it has no empire and why wont we just get along with the EU
aye...one of my ancestors was hung in the United Irishmen revolt of 1798, Alexander Gamble was his name.

Listen. I respect all religions. I respect Britain too. If I was to be the one responsible for the unity of Ireland (not likely), I would make sure both Catholics and Protestants have equal representation in Ireland. No one would be a minority or majority in government.

In fact, you wanna know the reason NI hasn't been reunited with the rest of Eire? BECAUSE IRELAND DOESN'T WANT YOU GUYS EITHER.
you know, i really think its got more to do with the majority of NI wanting to stay in the UK. Any Irish government that managed to unite Ireland would be hailed as heros by many, many people.

Listen. I respect all religions. I respect Britain too. If I was to be the one responsible for the unity of Ireland (not likely), I would make sure both Catholics and Protestants have equal representation in Ireland. No one would be a minority or majority in government.

Really? Care to explain how you would work that particular demographic and democratic miracle?

Listen. I respect all religions. I respect Britain too. If I was to be the one responsible for the unity of Ireland (not likely), I would make sure both Catholics and Protestants have equal representation in Ireland. No one would be a minority or majority in government.
that sounds suspiciously like the PSNI 50/50 recruitment policy :p

Well, actually, despite his blood and thunder rhetoric and firm insistence that the Pope is quite literally the anti-christ, Paisley has quite a good reputation for looking after the interests of Catholic members of his constituency. A case of hate the sin, not the sinner...
Having met quite a few NI Protestants it is about religion for a lot of them.
But saying, 'David Graham hates all Catholics!' wouldn't be very informative. Ian Paisley is so much more recognisable. And easy to mock. Lazy of me I admit but I am tired. :)

you know, i really think its got more to do with the majority of NI wanting to stay in the UK. Any Irish government that managed to unite Ireland would be hailed as heros by many, many people.

You try and give us NI and we will take you straight to the European Court.

Listen. I respect all religions. I respect Britain too. If I was to be the one responsible for the unity of Ireland (not likely), I would make sure both Catholics and Protestants have equal representation in Ireland. No one would be a minority or majority in government.

Why should those of Catholic culture, who would then make up more of the population, have a lesser democratic voice per capita than those of a Protestant culture?

OK. So, by precisely the same arguments, the various European settlers took over the entire North and South American continents illegally, and still hold them illegally. Remember Wounded Knee, etc etc etc. Remember Omagh, too, for that matter. Human history is practically nothing but a litany of murder. Welcome to Planet Earth. Please drive carefully.

I very much agree with you on that point. I have this quote that proves it further:

"Sir," I said, "except for the people who were there that one day they discovered the polio vaccine, being part of history is rarely a good idea. History is one war after another with a bunch of murders and natural disasters in between." - Sarah Vowell, Assassination Vacation, Page 208

Having met quite a few NI Protestants it is about religion for a lot of them.

Culture, rather than religion, I would argue: the 'Protestant' culture which is the main breeding ground for Loyalism/Unionism has little to do with actual religion, and the same can be said for the 'Catholic' culture which is the main breeding ground for Republicanism/Nationalism.

Why should those of Catholic culture, who would then make up more of the population, have a lesser democratic voice per capita than those of a Protestant culture?

Yeah, and what about the agnostics, atheists, hindus, jews, muslims and sikhs? What about the Bad Catholics and the Protestants-in-name-only? What's the exchange rate for Episcopalians against Presbyterians? "Are you a Catholic Buddhist or a Protestant Buddhist?"

you wanna know the reason NI hasn't been reunited with the rest of Eire?

It isn't really a case of the North being 'reunited' with Eire: Ireland has never existed as a unified all-island modern independent state.

Listen. I respect all religions. I respect Britain too. If I was to be the one responsible for the unity of Ireland (not likely), I would make sure both Catholics and Protestants have equal representation in Ireland. No one would be a minority or majority in government.
Despite the fact that the vast majority of the ROI is Catholic?

As for Ulster, the latest refrendum was not so long ago and voted to stay in the UK. If after another referendum they vote to move to the ROI (possible, since the Catholic population is growing faster than the Protestant one, it may not be about religion but that's how most people take sides there) then I don't see how the Westminster government could stop them, even in the extremely unlikely event of them wanting to.

As for the original point of the continued UK rule of Ulster giving ammunition to Republican terrorists, don't you think ROI rule would give similar ammo to Unionist terrorists? Both sorts exist, and Johnny 'Mad Dog' Adair isn't nearly as respectable as Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness have become since the IRA ceasefire.

England is a larger nation and was allways had more to say in 'UK' matters.
I'm just going were you are going, if the Eglish do something bad it's the UK if the King was of Scottish origins it was the Scotts fault etc.

I think you will find that the Scottish and the Welsh (and to a lesser extent, the Irish) have had just as a large a say in running the UK as the English. Lets take our current government and political parties as examples shall we?

Tony Blair was born in Scotland
Gordon Brown is Scottish and represents a Scottish constieuncy
So does Dr John Reid
Charles Kennedy is a Scot
Michael Howard was born in Wales.

What about Kings?
Henry Tudor was Welsh as was the entire Tudor line.
James I and most of the Stuart line were Scottish.

Need I continue? The fact is that there is very little "English" culture left because much of "English" culture was fused together with the image of Britishness.

I also think that you will probably find that alot of Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish people will have English blood at some point in their ancestary and vice versa. And if thats not true, our blood has been mingled on the many battlefields where the members of the Union fought side by side under the Union Jack.

What the British do not seem to understand is this. YOU DO NOT HAVE AN EMPIRE ANYMORE. Queen Elizabeth II still claims she is the empress of Canada, India, South Africa, New Zealand, and many others. She does not even have power in her own country anymore.

Also, the English took control of Ireland illegally and still hold Northern Ireland illegally. I should know. I am the grandson of Sinn Fein Political Activist Mary Nelis.

What about Bloody Sunday and the Battle of the Bogside? The Brits outlawed the marches and then fired on us when we marched anyway. How do you explain that? The Brits killed 13 people on Bloody Sunday and many more in other events. That is nothing that can be forgiven easily.

1. I think we do understand it thank you. However the states you have cited have all voted to keep the Queen as their head of state. We do not force them to - they can (and many have) reject the monarch as their head of state.

2. Being the grandson of anyone does not dispel the fact that has been repeated time and time again on this forum; NORTHERN IRELAND HAS VOTED THAT IT REMAIN PART OF THE UNION. Republicans should accept that. And being the grandson of a man who probably condoned terrorism (as most Sinn Fein members do) is nothing to be proud of.

3. What about the Birmingham bombs and all the other explosives that the IRA have used to murder British citizens, many more than the 13 killed on Bloody Sunday.

4. The history of Drogheda has been grossly embellished by Irish nationalists. The story which many Irish nationalists refer to is the highly emotive account of Father Murphy in the 1800s but recent revisions have shown that the truth is quite different. For example it is now realised that the majority of the occupants were Protestants and were not civilians but were in fact soldiers. It is also known that Cromwell issued many warnings to the garrison occupying Drogheda. Finally it is now believed that the slaughter carried out there was not ordered by Cromwell but was instead the act of troops who got out of control, a phenemon common to all armies until the mid 1800s.

Culture, rather than religion, I would argue: the 'Protestant' culture which is the main breeding ground for Loyalism/Unionism has little to do with actual religion, and the same can be said for the 'Catholic' culture which is the main breeding ground for Republicanism/Nationalism.

Hmmm...slight misunderstanding.
What I meant was:
Having met quite a few NI Protestants the excuse is religion for a lot of them.

I agree that it is cultural.

This problem goes all the way back to the Gallic Wars between Rome and Gaul. We Celts were driven out of Gaul, then Britain and Wales. The only places Celtic culture still existed were Scotland and Ireland. Then the Saxons and Normans come. There goes the neighborhood.

As for the original point of the continued UK rule of Ulster giving ammunition to Republican terrorists, don't you think ROI rule would give similar ammo to Unionist terrorists? Both sorts exist, and Johnny 'Mad Dog' Adair isn't nearly as respectable as Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness have become since the IRA ceasefire.

(emphasis added)

A highly debatable point.

Hmmm...slight misunderstanding.
What I meant was:
Having met quite a few NI Protestants the excuse is religion for a lot of them.

I agree that it is cultural.

That I can certainly accept. Stop John Q. Random-NorthernIrelandHood and engage him on debate on the finer points of Protestant and Catholic theological dispuite and you are likely to be met with at best a blank stare.

At the great risk of being proven completely wrong (especially, as I haven't read the first five pages of this thread...), I would suggest that the major reason why Northern Ireland should remain part of the United Kingdom for the time being is that a majority of the populace wish this to be so.

The problem seems to be that the active electorate are tuning to the more extreme (in terms of this issue, at last) parties.

BWO, am I right in thinking that the DUP are centre-left? I've always found it odd that there is no right-wing Republican party. Is the reverse true of the Unionists? Mind you, I don't know about the PUP, UDP, etc.

[QUOTE=Bodies Without Organs]James I, rather than James VI - so you accept now that the prime mover behind it was a Scot? QUOTE]
He was the same man, I and IV. I accept he was Scottish but he was also king of England yes?


I've followed this thread and read all your posts. You really seem to HATE England.... I'll agree we had a horrific, regretable past, but so did France, Spain, Holland, Belgium, why do you hate England and its people with such venom? Is it personal? We dont ALL think we still have an empire, but as you said IT HAPPENED. I personally am not going to apologise or feel small just because I was born in ENGLAND, everyrthing that happened happened BEFORE my time.

(emphasis added)

A highly debatable point.

Both of the Sinn Fein members have been democratically elected to the Westminster Parliament. Gerry Adams as leader of the party has called on the IRA to fully and accountably disarm. As far as I'm aware, Adair hasn't issued a similar call to the UVF, although they might have disarmed after the Good Friday agreement, I'm not sure.

Personally, as someone whose most recent Irish ancestor was a great-grandfather, I therefore do not consider myself to be in any substantial way Irish (My definition of 'substantial' is at least a grandparent, as that's what you need to represent a country at sport). I am English, my Dad's workplace was damaged when the IRA bomb went off in Manchester, and I elieve that all terrorist acts should be condemned, even if you believe in the same cause as the terrorists. Ultimately they do more harm to the cause than good (usually). My personal view on NI is hold a referendum at regular intervals and do what the people who can be bothered to vote want you to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celtannia
Queen Elizabeth II still claims she is the empress of Canada, India, South Africa, New Zealand, and many others. She does not even have power in her own country anymore.

Firstly, the Queen does not claim to be Empress of anywhere, especiall not India and South Africa which have been Republics since 1947 and 1961 respectively.
Secondly, the Queen is in fact and officially recognised as Queen of Australia, Canada, New Zealand and about 13 other countries.
Thirdly, the Queen still has considerable power in the UK, but does not use it, instead it is exercised by the government.

Both of the Sinn Fein members have been democratically elected to the Westminster Parliament. Gerry Adams as leader of the party has called on the IRA to fully and accountably disarm. As far as I'm aware, Adair hasn't issued a similar call to the UVF, although they might have disarmed after the Good Friday agreement, I'm not sure.

Adair was a member of the UDA, not the UVF. The UDA claim to be 'working towards disarmament'.

As far as respectability goes: McGuinness may have a veneer of respectability due to his involvement in the talks, but the general opinion of him is that most people would trust him as far as they could throw him. Adair is known to be a reckless nutter, whereas McGuinness remains tha man who wouldn't break a sweat over calming ordering you killed.

I elieve that all terrorist acts should be condemned, even if you believe in the same cause as the terrorists. Ultimately they do more harm to the cause than good (usually). My personal view on NI is hold a referendum at regular intervals and do what the people who can be bothered to vote want you to do.

I totally agree, and should point out that referenda are supposed to be held on the issue of NI, I think, every 7 years.

Adair was a member of the UDA, not the UVF. The UDA claim to be 'working towards disarmament'.

As far as respectability goes: McGuinness may have a veneer of respectability due to his involvement in the talks, but the general opinion of him is that most people would trust him as far as they could throw him. Adair is known to be a reckless nutter, whereas McGuinness remains tha man who wouldn't break a sweat over calming ordering you killed.
Apologies for getting the wrong organisation for Adair.

McGuiness is a politician. As long as peace is what people want (which I hope it always is) he will support that cause. However, Adams does at least seem to be trying to get the Stormont assembly back on track. From the news I've been hearing, it's Paisley and the DUP holding it up, mostly. Sinn Fein claims to be disasscoiated with the IRA now, so punishing them by refusing to come back to Stormont for something the IRA are (or rather aren't) doing seems silly, especially when Adams has asked the IRA to do the same thing (disarm).

I totally agree, and should point out that referenda are supposed to be held on the issue of NI, I think, every 7 years.
Every 7 years counts as regular intervals, so that's good to hear. Should they continue if the people vote to join the ROI though? Constantly switching countries can't be good for the province.

Should they continue if the people vote to join the ROI though? Constantly switching countries can't be good for the province.
That's a very good point, but I think if it ever came to a situation where the people of Northern Ireland voted to become part of Ireland, rejoining the UK would not be an issue. If this did happen, then it would mean the Nationalists were in a majority.

Every 7 years counts as regular intervals, so that's good to hear. Should they continue if the people vote to join the ROI though? Constantly switching countries can't be good for the province.

Sure, let's vote on something repeatedly until we get one of the two possible results, and then stop. That is not very democratic. If the unionists wanted to stop the referenda now, after all the province voted to stay part of the union, they would have as much right as the nationalists would have in stopping the referenda after they won the vorte.

Your forgetting that Southern Ireland is rich of EU money where as N Ireland is generally a giant council estate. They don’t want it back. It really pisses me off when people bitch on about England’s imperialism, its how states used to and still do work, get over it and stop being such a pussy. Also dont comment on this issue like you know something if your not from the UK or S Ireland.

Britain will retain sovereignty in northern ireland until the protestants and catholics grow up enough to stop killing each other.

The British troops went out there to protect the catholic minority from attacks, and guess who shot at them? Everyone.

It will not join EIRE until the religious boundaries are removed, and it is much more likely that they will become an independent nation before they join EIRE.

Your forgetting that Southern Ireland is rich of EU money where as N Ireland is generally a giant council estate. They don’t want it back.
Why would they want it? Northern Ireland costs £3 billion a year to run, and despite Ireland's improved economy I don't think they could afford NI.

Furthermore, under the Good Friday Agreement, Ireland amended Articles 2 & 3 of its constitution removing its territorial claims to the country.

I don't think it's fair to call NI a 'giant council estate', as we may not be as economically strong as before the troubles, but the economy isn't that bad. Also, up until Ireland received all that EU money, Northern Ireland was wealthier; despite its dependence on Great Britain.

Sohno Real, do you not know any Daily Mail readers?



Nor, indeed, for all of you "My family's from Ireland so I hate the English" types, does it mean you have to follow in their footsteps. Although, Sonho, with a name like Mary, I imagine it was the dude's gradmother.

I know very few Daily Mail readers, and those that I do know seem to be quite well-balenced in many of their veiws. As long as there isn't an election coming up, a large proportion of the stuff that comes out of the Daily Mail isn't so very bad anyway. And with the "My family's from Ireland" thing, I was joking around and being sarcastic. And yes, grandmother probably would be more likley. Although you never know... :p

Your forgetting that Southern Ireland is rich of EU money where as N Ireland is generally a giant council estate.

Eire isn't really so dependent on EU money any more - not since the rise of the Celtic Tiger (even if its rise is levelling off somewhat). As far as NI being one giant council estate: in parts, but lets not forget that a vast amount of it remains farmland.

It will not join EIRE until the religious boundaries are removed, and it is much more likely that they will become an independent nation before they join EIRE.

Northern Ireland will not join the Republic of Ireland until a majority of the Northern Irish people decide to. This will not happen unless, (which is very unlikely) Nationalists become a majority.

If NI does unite with RoI, then I think the religious boundaries will be removed (if these boundaries still exist).

McGuiness is a politician.

McGuiness was (and still is) a member of the provisional IRA, as are most Sinn Fein MLA's. They are murderers, butcherers, and do not deserve to represent the people of northern ireland with their "united ireland" garbage.

I live in Northern Ireland, I know first hand what the IRA are capable of, as a member of my family was murdered by a Sinn Fein / IRA sympathist, who was shouting IRA/sinn fein slogans at the murder trial. That bastard can burn in hell.

Northern Ireland will not join the Republic of Ireland until a majority of the Northern Irish people decide to. This will not happen unless, (which is very unlikely) Nationalists become a majority.

If NI does unite with RoI, then I think the religious boundaries will be removed (if these boundaries still exist).

they still exist. Are you a UK or Irish national?

If so, did you miss the children being taken to school in armoured cars because there school was the wrong religion on the wrong road and they were being shouted at and attacked by residents?

NI is majority protestant. That is why it remained with the UK

ahh catholics vs protestants; one reason why religion causes more problems than it solves.....

However, when one looks at the amount of votes cast for DUP and UUP candidates, rather than just who won the seats it becomes quite clear that Unionism is a far from united force*, with one third of Unionists voting for the UUP and two thirds for the DUP. Even looking at the basic seat results, the combined Unionist wins (10 seats) do not vastly outnumber the Republican/Nationalist wins (8 seats).



* as if this wasn't blatantly obvious anyhow.

I aggree there is a severe lack of unity, which REALLY needs to be addressed now that David Trimble has stepped down.


Put it like this: the UUP were the cause of Sinn Feins retained seat in Fermanagh/South Tyrone. Had they accepted the alliance that the DUP offered, the seat would have falllen to a unionist. The UUP also turned down a possible deal on the south belfast seat, which the UUP declined. Had they not done so, we would see a unionist seating in South Belfast, rather than an SDLP candidate. This remains pretty much the same accross Northern Ireland, as far as the "50/50 constituencies" are concerned.

McGuiness was (and still is) a member of the provisional IRA, as are most Sinn Fein MLA's. They are murderers, butcherers, and do not deserve to represent the people of northern ireland with their "united ireland" garbage.

I think it is disgraceful that the people of Northern Ireland vote for terrorists; as of last Friday, 5 of them represent NI at Westminister.

However, unfortunately people do. This means that in order to have a truly inclusive government they must be brought into it. Therefore, until (as I sincerely hope does happen), the SDLP becomes the largest Nationalist party again, we must work with Sinn Fein.

I just wrote a 20-page paper on Northern Ireland, so here's what I think:

1) Northern Ireland is a f*cked up place; the blame for this mostly rests with the pre-1969 Unionist government and before that, racist and arrogant British policies.
2) Republican paramilitaries completely lost any justification for violence after the Good Friday Agreement. Fighting for your people's voting rights is justified, some vague idea of a united Ireland is not worth blood.
3) Loyalist paramilitaries were never fully justified.
4) The Royal Ulster Constabulary has a history of collusion with Loyalist paramilitaries and needs to be disbanded.
5) The British need to stay in N.I. and stick to their pledge of neutrality.
6) ALL paramilitaries need to disarm, before their members turn to crime.
7) The goal of any further peace process should be joint sovereignty between the Republic of Ireland and the U.K. Proposals to fully join either Eire or Britain should be put to a referendum and passed by a 2/3 majority of N.I. residents before being implemented.
8) Inciting sectarian violence should be criminalized, and the RUC and/or the British should not be afraid to imprison Martin MacGuinness or Ian Paisley.
9) Irish-Americans need to stop supporting the Provisionals. I'm Catholic and my family is from Monaghan, and honestly I would have been born there too if they weren't driven out by the Protestants, but it's not my fight any more, nor is it any American's.

I aggree there is a severe lack of unity, which REALLY needs to be addressed now that David Trimble has stepped down.


Put it like this: the UUP were the cause of Sinn Feins retained seat in Fermanagh/South Tyrone. Had they accepted the alliance that the DUP offered, the seat would have falllen to a unionist. The UUP also turned down a possible deal on the south belfast seat, which the UUP declined. Had they not done so, we would see a unionist seating in South Belfast, rather than an SDLP candidate. This remains pretty much the same accross Northern Ireland, as far as the "50/50 constituencies" are concerned.
Wow. What a great democracy that would make. The real shame is that the Northern Irish are not offered any substantive choice beyond the different extremes of the unionist-nationalist divide.

they still exist. Are you a UK or Irish national?


I am a UK national, I live in Northern Ireland. Sorry, there was a misunderstanding on my part. I assumed you meant religious boundaries in Ireland.

Wow. What a great democracy that would make. The real shame is that the Northern Irish are not offered any substantive choice beyond the different extremes of the unionist-nationalist divide.

I really can't see why you are calling the DUP "extreme" ... who are the ones with weapons dumps on both sides of the border? who are the ones who carried out the Northern Bank robbery? Who are the ones who murdered Robert McCartney, in an unprovoked attack, and who later covered up the evidence, and then blamed the PSNI?!

Answer: Sinn Fein / IRA

Apologies for getting the wrong organisation for Adair.

McGuiness is a politician. As long as peace is what people want (which I hope it always is) he will support that cause. However, Adams does at least seem to be trying to get the Stormont assembly back on track. From the news I've been hearing, it's Paisley and the DUP holding it up, mostly. Sinn Fein claims to be disasscoiated with the IRA now, so punishing them by refusing to come back to Stormont for something the IRA are (or rather aren't) doing seems silly, especially when Adams has asked the IRA to do the same thing (disarm).
Given who won in the elections (i.e. most of the extremists, with the moderates barely getting a look in) I am mortally afraid that the people of NI do not want peace.

This debate is staying far too close to on-topic. Hmmmm.


DISEMPOWER THE TERRORISTS!!!! ARM EVERYONE!!! :D

I just wrote a 20-page paper on Northern Ireland, so here's what I think:

1) Northern Ireland is a f*cked up place; the blame for this mostly rests with the pre-1969 Unionist government and before that, racist and arrogant British policies.
2) Republican paramilitaries completely lost any justification for violence after the Good Friday Agreement. Fighting for your people's voting rights is justified, some vague idea of a united Ireland is not worth blood.
3) Loyalist paramilitaries were never fully justified.
4) The Royal Ulster Constabulary has a history of collusion with Loyalist paramilitaries and needs to be disbanded.
5) The British need to stay in N.I. and stick to their pledge of neutrality.
6) ALL paramilitaries need to disarm, before their members turn to crime.
7) The goal of any further peace process should be joint sovereignty between the Republic of Ireland and the U.K. Proposals to fully join either Eire or Britain should be put to a referendum and passed by a 2/3 majority of N.I. residents before being implemented.
8) Inciting sectarian violence should be criminalized, and the RUC and/or the British should not be afraid to imprison Martin MacGuinness or Ian Paisley.
9) Irish-Americans need to stop supporting the Provisionals. I'm Catholic and my family is from Monaghan, and honestly I would have been born there too if they weren't driven out by the Protestants, but it's not my fight any more, nor is it any American's.

The RUC does not exist. It is the Northern Ireland Police now.

paramilitaries NEVER had justification to murder children and innocents. Freedom fighters attack the security services, politicians or even judges. Terrorists attack shopping centres and railway stations. That makes ALL the paramilitaries murdering scum.

paramilitaries have ALWAYS been partly about crime - to get funding/equipment. Hence they will naturally move to crime now.

Given who won in the elections (i.e. most of the extremists, with the moderates barely getting a look in) I am mortally afraid that the people of NI do not want peace.


We do want peace, just not on their* terms.





* the exact definition of who 'they' are in this instance varies widely, and therein lies the problem.

Rummania... I'd give that paper of yours a big fat D

I really can't see why you are calling the DUP "extreme" ... who are the ones with weapons dumps on both sides of the border? who are the ones who carried out the Northern Bank robbery? Who are the ones who murdered Robert McCartney, in an unprovoked attack, and who later covered up the evidence, and then blamed the PSNI?!

Answer: Sinn Fein / IRA

because the DUP play political games to gain power, rather than further peace. Just look at the fuss they were making over decommisioning.

They are after control of the government in NI, not peace.

I really can't see why you are calling the DUP "extreme" ... who are the ones with weapons dumps on both sides of the border? who are the ones who carried out the Northern Bank robbery? Who are the ones who murdered Robert McCartney, in an unprovoked attack, and who later covered up the evidence, and then blamed the PSNI?!

Answer: Sinn Fein / IRA

Some choice quotes by Ian Paisley:
"Catholic homes caught fire because they were loaded with petrol bombs; Catholic churches were attacked and burned because they were arsenals and priests handed out sub-machine guns to parishioners... they breed like rabbits and multiply like vermin"

"The Unionist party are boasting he [Harold Smith] is a Jew. As a Jew, he rejects our Lord Jesus Christ, the New Testament, Protestant principles, the Glorious Reformation and the sanctity of the Lord's day. The Protestant throne and the Protestant constitution are nothing to him."

He also called the pope the anti-christ to his face. Paisley is a fascist. Few people on this earth make my blood boil like Ian Paisley. If you Orangemen can't fathom how Catholics in the North could possibly claim discrimination and turn to bombs and bullets, look at the bastards you elect. I'm not condoning the IRA, but it's not hard to understand why they exist when you see men like Paisley call them vermin and blaspheme their holiest religious leader.

We do want peace, just not on their* terms.





* the exact definition of who 'they' are in this instance varies widely, and therein lies the problem.

:said in really tacky fake wise old china man voice: A most enlightening point.

But seriously, are you sure that's not scarier?

because the DUP play political games to gain power, rather than further peace. Just look at the fuss they were making over decommisioning.

They are after control of the government in NI, not peace.

They were simply wanting evidence for the decommisioning.. I don't think thats too much to ask for.

The RUC does not exist. It is the Northern Ireland Police now.

Technically, seeing as how the RUC reconstitution is basically all a matter of semantics anyhow, it is actually the Police Service of Northern Ireland.


The chant 'SS RUC SS RUC', however remains the same.

[QUOTE=Rummania
4) The Royal Ulster Constabulary has a history of collusion with Loyalist paramilitaries and needs to be disbanded.
5) The British need to stay in N.I. and stick to their pledge of neutrality.
6) ALL paramilitaries need to disarm, before their members turn to crime.
9) Irish-Americans need to stop supporting the Provisionals. I'm Catholic and my family is from Monaghan, and honestly I would have been born there too if they weren't driven out by the Protestants, but it's not my fight any more, nor is it any American's.[/QUOTE]

Firstly, the RUC has been disbanded, we now have the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) which is on its way to becoming 50/50 Protestant and Catholic.

Secondly, Britain has attempted to maintained a neutral position, and will continue to do so. By attempting to destroy the IRA they gave Nationalists the impression they were targeting them and protecting Unionists.

Thirdly, it is too late; the IRA recently robbed the Northern Bank in Belfast and Loyalist paramilitaries have been involved in drugs for many years.

Fourthly, I totally agree, Americans need to stop supporting terrorists. Do they not realise what the PIRA is doing over here?

What the British do not seem to understand is this. YOU DO NOT HAVE AN EMPIRE ANYMORE. Queen Elizabeth II still claims she is the empress of Canada, India, South Africa, New Zealand, and many others. She does not even have power in her own country anymore.

Also, the English took control of Ireland illegally and still hold Northern Ireland illegally. I should know. I am the grandson of Sinn Fein Political Activist Mary Nelis.

What about Bloody Sunday and the Battle of the Bogside? The Brits outlawed the marches and then fired on us when we marched anyway. How do you explain that? The Brits killed 13 people on Bloody Sunday and many more in other events. That is nothing that can be forgiven easily.

REMEMBER DROGHEDA (9/11,1649) 3,000 dead.

1) Empress? Really? Since when, i thought she was a Queen

2) No empire, you are correct but we have dependent territories

3) India and South Africa are independent, Australia and Canada voted for the Queen to remain Head of State

4) She does have power, she chooses (as has every monarch since the 1640's i believe) not to exercise them and delegates them to Parliament

5) Illegal? Under what law? International law is a relatively new concept, established in the 20th century i do believe.

6) Congratulations on being a grandson, but quite frankly being proud of being related to a sinn fein political activist is akin to saying you are proud to be related to Osama Bin Laden.

7) Explain what? A travesty and something that is regrettable to say the least. But so is the bombing of Omagh, the countless terrorist attacks on London and the British mainland, things that cannot be forgiven easily and yet the british have made peace, they have given a power sharing parliament to the region and signed the good friday agreement. Many people have died on both sides of the conflict, highlighting one side is being ignorant of your own sides history of terrible actions.

8) Remember Drogheda? Well then, as an Englishmen i could say remember Hastings? Bosworth, the Somme and countless other events in history where englishmen have died.

Some choice quotes by Ian Paisley:
"Catholic homes caught fire because they were loaded with petrol bombs; Catholic churches were attacked and burned because they were arsenals and priests handed out sub-machine guns to parishioners... they breed like rabbits and multiply like vermin"


My guess is that you are not familiar with the murders of two police officers in the 80's? They were undercover at an IRA funeral, and got caught. The CATHOLIC BISHOP told the crowd to murder them, as insane as this may sound.
They were of course in the end, murdered. MY dad was in the RUC at that time, and saw first hand, the carnage left at the scene. He had to go and clear the bodies, etc.

They were simply wanting evidence for the decommisioning.. I don't think thats too much to ask for.

I agree, evidence of decommissioning is not too much to ask for, but to be so rigid about the exact nature of the evidence when agreement seemed so close, was ridiculous.

they still exist. Are you a UK or Irish national?

If so, did you miss the children being taken to school in armoured cars because there school was the wrong religion on the wrong road and they were being shouted at and attacked by residents?

did you miss the bit where there was another entrance, closer to where the children lived, but the parents insisted on taking them the longer route to prove a point? or the attacks on the protestant houses by republicans using the route prior to the whole incident?

the whole thing was a ridiculous farce, but the blame cant be laid at the feet of one side, everybody needs to share the responsibility for the last 30 years or well never get anywhere.

I agree, evidence of decommissioning is not too much to ask for, but to be so rigid about the exact nature of the evidence when agreement seemed so close, was ridiculous.

I think the point they were trying to make, is that the IRA, as with all paramilitary groups, can not be trusted.... The IRA said they would decommission last time.. and we all remember the outcome..... david trimble believed the IRA at his cost.

4) The Royal Ulster Constabulary has a history of collusion with Loyalist paramilitaries and needs to be disbanded.
the RUC has been disbanded, but has been replaced with the equally discriminatory PSNI (Police Service of Northern Ireland), which uses "positive discrimination"....which apparently means thats ok then

did you miss the bit where there was another entrance, closer to where the children lived, but the parents insisted on taking them the longer route to prove a point? or the attacks on the protestant houses by republicans using the route prior to the whole incident?

the whole thing was a ridiculous farce, but the blame cant be laid at the feet of one side, everybody needs to share the responsibility for the last 30 years or well never get anywhere.

I am blaming neither side, i was illustrating the religious divide.

I view all christians the same way...

8) Remember Drogheda? Well then, as an Englishmen i could say remember Hastings? Bosworth, the Somme and countless other events in history where englishmen have died.

Claiming the Somme as a particularly English battle is a tad insensitive when the matters at hand are relations with the Irish, no?

Some choice quotes by Ian Paisley:
"Catholic homes caught fire because they were loaded with petrol bombs; Catholic churches were attacked and burned because they were arsenals and priests handed out sub-machine guns to parishioners... they breed like rabbits and multiply like vermin"

"The Unionist party are boasting he [Harold Smith] is a Jew. As a Jew, he rejects our Lord Jesus Christ, the New Testament, Protestant principles, the Glorious Reformation and the sanctity of the Lord's day. The Protestant throne and the Protestant constitution are nothing to him."

He also called the pope the anti-christ to his face. Paisley is a fascist. Few people on this earth make my blood boil like Ian Paisley. If you Orangemen can't fathom how Catholics in the North could possibly claim discrimination and turn to bombs and bullets, look at the bastards you elect. I'm not condoning the IRA, but it's not hard to understand why they exist when you see men like Paisley call them vermin and blaspheme their holiest religious leader.
you got those quotes from Wiki, but you ignore the fact that he gets a large personal vote, some of it from catholics, who recognise that if someone is being hard done by he will help them despite their differences of opinion. he had/has a close-ish friendship with the ex-leader of the SDLP...on the oppositde side of the political spectrum. He might be a religious nut, but hes not the fascist hes made out to be

All this stuff coming from Americans and other groups, whilst they are entitled to their opinion, do not seem to get the basic fact that, as already stated, the majority of the people in Northern Island do not want to leave the Union. If that changes, then we'll leave. Until then, and I apoligise to any Republicans out there, it remains the Status Quo.

My guess is that you are not familiar with the murders of two police officers in the 80's? They were undercover at an IRA funeral, and got caught. The CATHOLIC BISHOP told the crowd to murder them, as insane as this may sound.
They were of course in the end, murdered. MY dad was in the RUC at that time, and saw first hand, the carnage left at the scene. He had to go and clear the bodies, etc.

So Protestant mobs were clearly justified in torching Bombay Street. Protestants need to understand that IRA violence was caused in reaction to discrimination and oppression by the organs of the state. That doesn't excuse it, but it can help end it. By supporting Paisley and shutting out Sinn Fein, you just get in the retaliation game that escalates violence and widens the gap between Catholics and Protestants. In the situation you described, the RUC agents were killed because their relations with the Catholic community were so bad, that Catholics saw their own police force as enemies. The solution to this is not to further antagonize them, it is to make them feel that the police are a legitimate force that is for their protection. Look at the McCartney murders and Sinn Fein's election returns from the 5th of May. The IRA is killing it's own people, and still Catholics trust them more than the police. All someone like Paisley does is reinforce the idea that Sinn Fein propagates: Catholics will never be safe and free as long as they live in the UK.

Claiming the Somme as a particularly English battle is a tad insensitive when the matters at hand are relations with the Irish, no?

Actually the matters at hand are to do with the British, as every citizen in Northern Ireland, has a passport saying "BRITISH CITIZEN", although many others have irish passports too.
Point is that Northern Ireland is a british country, not irish. We are as british as the english, the scottish, and the welsh.

Union Jack forever

Claiming the Somme as a particularly English battle is a tad insensitive when the matters at hand are relations with the Irish, no?

kind of ignores the Canadians too, when on the first day of the Somme entire Newfoundland and Labrador battalions were cut to shreds in a few minutes.

I think the point they were trying to make, is that the IRA, as with all paramilitary groups, can not be trusted.... The IRA said they would decommission last time.. and we all remember the outcome..... david trimble believed the IRA at his cost.
yup, Trimble trusted Sinn Fein/IRA to do something, and it cost him not only his seat in Parliament, but his leadership of the UUP, and most of the support for the UUP from unionists went as well

the blame cant be laid at the feet of one side, everybody needs to share the responsibility for the last 30 years or well never get anywhere.

I think this is the part of the solution to Northern Ireland's problems; accepting it wasn't the 'other side' that started it.

However, the people of Northern Ireland also need to re-identifiy themselves, not as Irish or British, but as Northern Irish. If politics in NI wasn't so tribal, agreement would be considerably easier; both sides want peace and both sides want devolution, yet they cannot work together and are now voting for the extremes.

I think this is the part of the solution to Northern Ireland's problems; accepting it wasn't the 'other side' that started it.

However, the people of Northern Ireland also need to re-identifiy themselves, not as Irish or British, but as Northern Irish. If politics in NI wasn't so tribal, agreement would be considerably easier; both sides want peace and both sides want devolution, yet they cannot work together and are now voting for the extremes.
you know, alot of people i know do say theyre Northern Irish, its just easier, and its a compromise.

Catholics will never be safe and free as long as they live in the UK.

If they feel THAT BAD ABOUT IT.... then couldnt they just move down south where they belong?????

Well, the thing is.. i dont think they feel that bad about it.... i believe its all political propaganda.... afterall, there are as many catholics in the PSNI now as there are Protestants... infact, my cousing got DENIED entrance into the PSNI... due to him being a protestant.

All i meant by mentioning the somme was saying that as englishmen died during that battle (with soldiers from many other countries who fought with the british) that i should according to the logic of the person i was quoting feel anger towards the enemy that day, do i? No.

like a lot of Americans I wonder why the killing continues

Granted, Irish history consists of nearly 1000 years of English conquest and oppression, (before that there were a couple of hundred years of Viking conquest and oppression).

The English forcibly settled Scots in Ireland (who became the Scots Irish when a lot of them moved to North America). British policies were at times near genocidal, at times neglectful to the point where genocide actually occured (Potato Famine ring a bell?)

The majority of the descendents of these Scots Irish settlers now live in Northern Ireland. And are Protestant, and mostly have the better jobs.

But the English no longer have laws that oppress Catholics for religious reasons. So why is it that Catholics object to living in British Northern Ireland instead of a Irish Northern Ireland? If the fighting stopped permanently, wouldn't all Northern Irish benefit economically and politically and most importantly, have security?

Other than 1000 years of slights and history why does the fighting continue?

Doesn't the Catholic population of N. Ireland have a higher birth rate than the protestants? I know that Catholics are now like 40 percent or so of the population. Perhaps if the demographic balance shifts a little more, Sinn Fein, will take over and reunite Ireland?

cathlics have a higher birth rate because they, dont use condoms, and believe in a stupid thing called the rhythmic system where they try and count the days....fools

any hoo this might mean that reunition is inevitable like in 50years...but if you look at the demographics Sinn Fein totaly got the east or NI in the general elections.

Actually the matters at hand are to do with the British, as every citizen in Northern Ireland, has a passport saying "BRITISH CITIZEN", although many others have irish passports too.
Point is that Northern Ireland is a british country, not irish. We are as british as the english, the scottish, and the welsh.

I was responding to Wegaland's implication that there was something particularly English about the losses at the Somme: it kind of ignores the losses sustained by the 36th Ulster Division and the 16th Irish Division...


8) Remember Drogheda? Well then, as an Englishmen i could say remember Hastings? Bosworth, the Somme and countless other events in history where englishmen have died.

Union Jack forever

Union Flag, shurely?

I really can't see why you are calling the DUP "extreme" ... who are the ones with weapons dumps on both sides of the border? who are the ones who carried out the Northern Bank robbery? Who are the ones who murdered Robert McCartney, in an unprovoked attack, and who later covered up the evidence, and then blamed the PSNI?!

Answer: Sinn Fein / IRA
You misunderstand. I was referring to all four major parties. They offer themselves for election on the basis of their position in the unionist <---> nationalist scale.

Regarding broader politics, I believe the UUP are centre-right, Sinn Fein socialist and the SDLP centre-left, but what are the DUP?

If they feel THAT BAD ABOUT IT.... then couldnt they just move down south where they belong?????
Bloody hell, just listen to yourself. NI is not the exclusive preserve of Protestants, just as England is not the exclusive preserve of Anglicans.

like a lot of Americans I wonder why the killing continues


I do wish that was the case in all circumstances....

Remember when Coca-Cola made the $20,000 (cant remember the exact amount) donation to Sinn Fein?

Remember the NYFD donation to Sinn Fein?

This is why the killing still continues.

All i meant by mentioning the somme was saying that as englishmen died during that battle (with soldiers from many other countries who fought with the british) that i should according to the logic of the person i was quoting feel anger towards the enemy that day, do i? No.

Does the phrase 'lions lead by donkeys' ring any bells? I still think it is valid to feel angry about the enemy at the Somme, but one has to realise that the chaps in the opposing trenches weren't the real enemy.

Just wondering, since they are causing more trouble than it is worth, and a free and united Ireland will come about one way or another. They are only giving the RIRA and CIRA more fuel for their fire as time goes on.

And another thing why do Brits always look at Ireland with such arrogance, and ignorance? The ones i have talked to consider it a bright spot in their history, when sadly it isn't.You've obviously been talking to the wrong Brits then. I say give Ireland back to the Irish.

Bloody hell, just listen to yourself. NI is not the exclusive preserve of Protestants, just as England is not the exclusive preserve of Anglicans.

All im saying is, that if you didnt like to live in a place, because you thought you were being opressed.... why on earth would you continue to live there?

I was responding to Wegaland's implication that there was something particularly English about the losses at the Somme: it kind of ignores the losses sustained by the 36th Ulster Division and the 16th Irish Division...

Its Wegason actually, and like i have said i was just inferring that englishmen died there so am i be angry at the enemy? No i am not.

Other than 1000 years of slights and history why does the fighting continue?

it is what gives us our unique charm: without it we would be just another under-developed backwater of no particular interest.

You've obviously been talking to the wrong Brits then. I say give Ireland back to the Irish.

It's a good job you dont have a say.

Union Flag, shurely?

maybe he's a navy boy?

All im saying is, that if you didnt like to live in a place, because you thought you were being opressed.... why on earth would you continue to live there?
Because we don't live in a world where there is freedom of movement? Because your family lives in the area? Because you have a job there? Etc, ad infinitum

Its Wegason actually, and like i have said i was just inferring that englishmen died there so am i be angry at the enemy? No i am not.

Sorry about the name: I read your clarifying post after I had posted my initial response: however, drawing a valid parallel between Drogheda and the Somme is somewhat difficult: it is not as if your nation has been 'occupied' by the enemy for hundreds of years after that event.

Point is that Northern Ireland is a british country, not irish. We are as british as the english, the scottish, and the welsh.

I totally agree, this is something I have trouble getting through to my friends and some members of my family; whether they like it or not they live in Britain. Northern Ireland is British and will remain so, as the Nationalist majority required for a united Ireland is very unlikely to happen.

Therefore, I believe the people of NI should realise they are Northern Irish, and should work together. They should build a Northern Irish culture which accepts and explores the differences of the two communities.

All im saying is, that if you didnt like to live in a place, because you thought you were being opressed.... why on earth would you continue to live there?

Maybe because you believe that you have a right to live there, and moving away would be a sign of surrender to your oppressors?

Maybe because you believe that you have a right to live there, and moving away would be a sign of surrender to your oppressors?

What oppressors?????????!!

lmao

Maybe because you believe that you have a right to live there, and moving away would be a sign of surrender to your oppressors?

but the catholics aren't being oppressed. And a majority of people want to stay British

What oppressors?????????!!

lmao

In this instance 'theoretical oppressors'. I as a relatively non-aligned resident of Belfast can feel that the paramilitaries by their very existence and activities are oppressing me or taking away my rights to live peacefully, and I could feel that moving away elsewhere (be it Dublin or London or Timbuktu) would be an act of giving in in the face of such oppression.

but the catholics aren't being oppressed. And a majority of people want to stay BritishActually many Catholocs do feel oppressed and I disagree that because a few thousand more protestants want to stay in the Uk. Will you still support a democratic choice, when within the next 20-30 years the catholics form a majority and want to reunite with Eire.

Britains presence in Northern Ireland is part of a long and dreadful history of mismanagement and neglect of the island of Ireland on the part of successive British Monarch's and Prime Minister's. I'm almost entirely convinced that nobody in Britain has a true grasp of the situation there.

but the catholics aren't being oppressed. And a majority of people want to stay British

The existence of paramilitary gangs acting on the supposed basis of a popular mandate, but engaged in punishment beatings, murders, conventional gangsterism and re-arming for when the balloon goes up again counts, in my book, as a form of behaviour which by degrading the quality of life of all others can be termed oppression.

you know, alot of people i know do say theyre Northern Irish, its just easier, and its a compromise.

True, but not enough. Only 19% of Protestants and 23% of Catholics consider themselves Northern Irish.

When is Britain leaving the Planet ?

True, but not enough. Only 19% of Protestants and 23% of Catholics consider themselves Northern Irish.

Speaking personally, I describe myself as someone from Belfast.

In this instance 'theoretical oppressors'. I as a relatively non-aligned resident of Belfast can feel that the paramilitaries by their very existence and activities are oppressing me or taking away my rights to live peacefully, and I could feel that moving away elsewhere (be it Dublin or London or Timbuktu) would be an act of giving in in the face of such oppression.

Ah I see where you're coming from. I jumped to conclusions and assumed something else. Sorry.

Actually many Catholocs do feel oppressed and I disagree that because a few thousand more protestants want to stay in the Uk. Will you still support a democratic choice, when within the next 20-30 years the catholics form a majority and want to reunite with Eire.

i fully support the right to self determination

The existence of paramilitary gangs acting on the supposed basis of a popular mandate, but engaged in punishment beatings, murders, conventional gangsterism and re-arming for when the balloon goes up again counts, in my book, as a form of behaviour which by degrading the quality of life of all others can be termed oppression.

paramilitaries operate on both sides, as we have seen.

The need is for a decent disarmament program and police service, not suddenly becoming part of ireland

http://www.lancashire.gov.uk/environment/landscape/landscapecharacass/images/photo10.jpg

Soon I hope for all our sakes.

Britains presence in Northern Ireland is part of a long and dreadful history of mismanagement and neglect of the island of Ireland on the part of successive British Monarch's and Prime Minister's. I'm almost entirely convinced that nobody in Britain has a true grasp of the situation there.

I would not say that British Monarchs and Prime Ministers have neglected NI, true, Westminster more or less washed its hands of NI while it was being governed by the Stormont Parliament, but since the troubles began, successive British governments have worked to find some sort of settlement in NI.

Also, if Britain was guilty of neglect, would British troops have been sent in 1969? Would Westminster pay £3 billion pounds a year to keep NI going?

paramilitaries operate on both sides, as we have seen.

Indeed: my remarks were addressing those on both sides. Moving away from Northern Ireland can be seen as letting the men of violence win.

http://www.lancashire.gov.uk/environment/landscape/landscapecharacass/images/photo10.jpg

Soon I hope for all our sakes.

???

I thought you were going to suggest that the ultimate solution to the 'Irish Question' would come as a result of rising sea levels and coastal erosion.

i fully support the right to self determinationAs do I but that has to be from a community of like mind, which Ulster clearly isn't. Therefore the fairest approach should be to take account the history of the British oppression and the method by which people can truly repect each others differences. If it continues to be a "black & white" argument, then a solution will never be found.

As do I but that has to be from a community of like mind, which Ulster clearly isn't. Therefore the fairest approach should be to take account the history of the British oppression and the method by which people can truly repect each others differences. If it continues to be a "black & white" argument, then a solution will never be found.

The fairest approach is self governance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nova Castlemilk
Actually many Catholocs do feel oppressed and I disagree that because a few thousand more protestants want to stay in the Uk. Will you still support a democratic choice, when within the next 20-30 years the catholics form a majority and want to reunite with Eire.

It is not simply a case of 'a few thousand more protestants', 15% of the Catholic population want NI to remain part of the UK.

Also, a Catholic majority is not all that is needed for a united Ireland, I quote, "Assuming 70% of Catholics supported Irish unity a majority in favour of unification would require that the adult Catholic population be more than two and a half times larger than the Protestant population." (Marc Mulholland)

Anyone attacking the English for the situation in Northern Ireland is basically being a retard. The problem is one we've inherited from hundreds of years ago, and are stuck with. There is no simple solution, such as 'give NI back to Ireland'. If it was that easy, we'd have done it ages ago, and washed our hands of the problem. The fact is, it's not, so get over it.

Back when the English were invading Ireland, countries invaded each other whenever they could get away with it, and did all sorts of vicious things to each other, and that goes for EVERYONE, not just the English, or even just the Europeans. Some were better at it than others, but everyone basically had the same motivation. Holding medieval kingdoms up to modern international standards is silly.

So in conclusion: Yeah, my ancestors were psychos. But so were yours. Even yours, North Island, unless you seriously think that the Norse were jolly old souls who would never harm a fly.

I think the whole british islands (sorry for my grammar as english is not my mother tongue, i do apologize if i make some geographical mistakes) should be united under one banner, be as it may if Great Britain is the strongest now, so ireland should be with them an act as province with a great deal of independence, that way its economy should rise, in the future there will be no distinction between irish and english and all these problems should be forgotten.

Just wondering
About the same time as they're leaving the Falklands, USA leaves Puerto Tico and Panama and get the hell out of Cuba, and UN becomes democratic and works for wolrdpeace instead of running erands for permanent members, the western imperialism is defeated and people get educated and realise that socialism/communism =/Teh Utt3r 3Vul!!!111

it is what gives us our unique charm: without it we would be just another under-developed backwater of no particular interest.

but Ireland makes such good whisky, ale and beer.... a much better charm (chuckle)

as far as American donations to the IRA go, definitely a good point, and something that has to stop...

About the same time as they're leaving the Falklands, USA leaves Puerto Tico and Panama and get the hell out of Cuba, and UN becomes democratic and works for wolrdpeace instead of running erands for permanent members, the western imperialism is defeated and people get educated and realise that socialism/communism =/Teh Utt3r 3Vul!!!111

umm, Puerto Rico has had several elections over the last few decades and in each case chose to remain part of the US. As far as Panama goes, the US is there under treaty, and you can't tell me getting rid of Noreiga was bad for the Panamanians. The actual Falkland Islanders want to remain British, no Argentine settler has ever lived there, even before the British took it over (prior to the British take over is was simply a place where whalers and merchant ships hung out to make repairs after dealing with the Great Southern Ocean, Cape Horn and the Straits of Magellen).

As far as Cuba goes, well Gitmo probably isn't that important to the US, but what the hell, we got the lease in exchange from liberating the Cubans from the Spanish in 1898.

pretty sure that since 192 out of 237 countries have Democratic legislatures, and there are only really about 5 Communist nations left (China, Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam, Laos) the evidence seems to be that Democracy and Capitalism are the wave of the future and not Communism

In 1918 the whole of Ireland voted on the issue of Home Rule, and a vast majority supported it. The PM at the time split Ireland into two states (creating a false majority in the North). It’s been said over and over here that the North remains in the UK because the majority want it, but it’s a false majority. Britain has created these conditions elsewhere in the world – in India, where they split up the North to make Pakestain and there have been wars there over the border, which was vaguely drawn by the British. In Iraq, the British stuck 3 states together into one creating the fundamental tensions that are still there today. These things go against democracy, and create tensions and entrench hatreds.

Without the Protestant community, the (Free State, then) Republic had no liberalising force to counter the conservativism that has only recently lifted and given way. The situation has made both communities in the north very, very extreme (i.e. Ian Paisley).
Economically, the North is a disaster for the UK (as well as politically), and the North is still under-funded – the roads, education and health systems need upgrading, and the Education boards are massively in debt (in the millions).

For the first 50 years of the states existence, Catholics were discriminated against by a Protestant community that feared that it would one day rise up and destroy them. In the city of Derry, two thirds of the population were Nationalist/Catholic, but because of fixing the election boundaries, it had a Unionist council. The rich had up to 7 votes, and only home-owners/rate-payers could vote (this discriminated against some protentants too, but it was mostly cathlolics that suffered).

Now, when the Unionists have elected Paisley, they are clearly saying that they will never listen or deal with the nationalists. Paisley has a history of rallying against civil rights (he rallied against the N.I. Civil Rights Assoication in the 60s) and the man who won’t talk to terrorists, SAT WITH THEM as they planed the UUUC’s Workers strike that brought down the Power-Sharing government in 1974. When Ian Paisley lovingly talks about “going back to the old days” is it any wonder Nationalists (and moderates of any conviction) get worried?

And Gerry Adams, who, lets face it, probably is part of the IRA’s council, needs to get rid of the guns, FAST (he should have back in 1998). Then Paisley will have no excuse against power-sharing.

It’s always funny to see the Orange order celebrate a Dutch King defeating an English King every year.

The scots are some of the best people in the world precisely because of their proxmity and comradeship with the people of england, ditto the welsh.


Look at the mess of ireland compared to either of those countries!
If the irish want to live in slums and warzones and have people stabbed to death by the IRA thugs in bars, by all means, continue to be anti-british contrarians.

Tell the IRA "No" and HRH "Yes."
Peace and prosperity will be the result.

Oh, I forgot, you'll have to live in the same chattel bondage as the scots and the welsh, those shining examples of english totalitarianism :rolleyes:

umm, Puerto Rico has had several elections over the last few decades and in each case chose to remain part of the US. As far as Panama goes, the US is there under treaty, and you can't tell me getting rid of Noreiga was bad for the Panamanians. The actual Falkland Islanders want to remain British, no Argentine settler has ever lived there, even before the British took it over (prior to the British take over is was simply a place where whalers and merchant ships hung out to make repairs after dealing with the Great Southern Ocean, Cape Horn and the Straits of Magellen).

As far as Cuba goes, well Gitmo probably isn't that important to the US, but what the hell, we got the lease in exchange from liberating the Cubans from the Spanish in 1898.

pretty sure that since 192 out of 237 countries have Democratic legislatures, and there are only really about 5 Communist nations left (China, Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam, Laos) the evidence seems to be that Democracy and Capitalism are the wave of the future and not CommunismI personally doubt democratic elections, however that issue is not to be discussed under this topic.

For your information there hasn't been any communistic state, not even attempts to make one.

I personally doubt democratic elections, however that issue is not to be discussed under this topic.

For your information there hasn't been any communistic state, not even attempts to make one.

believe whatever your Marxist ideology prevails upon you.... however, the UN said the elections where democratic

your right, there has never been a "Marxist" state, just a Marxist Leninist or Marxist -Mao type states.... but they called themselves communist.

incidently, the IRA was about as truly catholic christians as the Soviets were truly Marxist..... Generally one doesn't call someone a good Christian when they conduct terrorist attacks against civilians

believe whatever your Marxist ideology prevails upon you.... however, the UN said the elections where democratic

your right, there has never been a "Marxist" state, just a Marxist Leninist or Marxist -Mao type states.... but they called themselves communist.

incidently, the IRA was about as truly catholic christians as the Soviets were truly Marxist..... Generally one doesn't call someone a good Christian when they conduct terrorist attacks against civiliansOn the other hand Mugabe calls himself democratic, that must mean that all democracies are evil. The states you took as an example has never even been marxistic, since the dictatorship part never was included in any of Marx's texts.

In 1918 the whole of Ireland voted on the issue of Home Rule, and a vast majority supported it. The PM at the time split Ireland into two states (creating a false majority in the North). It’s been said over and over here that the North remains in the UK because the majority want it, but it’s a false majority.
at the time the situation was a little more complex than you have just presented it. the Irish regiments of the British Army in WW1 had suffered some of the heaviest losses every incurred by the British Army, so they were hardly going to say "well, thanks for all that help back then, but tallyho, well have to leave you now."

And then there was the threat of the UVF launching a full scale civil war in the north, which would have used any means necessary to remain in the union, and then theres the fact that the north was meant to join the Free State fairly soon after partition.

As it stands, like it or not, the majority of the entity known as Northern Ireland wants to remain part of the UK, and it would definitely not be democratic to enforce what the minority wants onto the majority in this case.

Without the Protestant community, the (Free State, then) Republic had no liberalising force to counter the conservativism that has only recently lifted and given way. The situation has made both communities in the north very, very extreme (i.e. Ian Paisley).
Economically, the North is a disaster for the UK (as well as politically), and the North is still under-funded – the roads, education and health systems need upgrading, and the Education boards are massively in debt (in the millions).
The education system in Northern Ireland is widely regarded as one of the best in Europe, despite its financial shortcomings (which, incidently, stem from the British government refusing to pay for things in education here that it willingly pays for in England and Wales)


Now, when the Unionists have elected Paisley, they are clearly saying that they will never listen or deal with the nationalists. Paisley has a history of rallying against civil rights (he rallied against the N.I. Civil Rights Assoication in the 60s) and the man who won’t talk to terrorists, SAT WITH THEM as they planed the UUUC’s Workers strike that brought down the Power-Sharing government in 1974. When Ian Paisley lovingly talks about “going back to the old days” is it any wonder Nationalists (and moderates of any conviction) get worried?
The unionist population got sick of the UUP giving concessions to Sinn Fein/IRA without any discernable gains...no decomissioning, no cease in criminal activities...etc, etc, theres plenty that caused the shift from the UUP to the DUP - basically people got fed up and thought they might as well give the other lot (the DUP) a chance

And Gerry Adams, who, lets face it, probably is part of the IRA’s council, needs to get rid of the guns, FAST (he should have back in 1998). Then Paisley will have no excuse against power-sharing.
And even if it happens, they will need substantial proof to be believed by the unionist population

It’s always funny to see the Orange order celebrate a Dutch King defeating an English King every year.
A Dutch king who was supported by the Pope, no less

I would not say that British Monarchs and Prime Ministers have neglected NI, true, Westminster more or less washed its hands of NI while it was being governed by the Stormont Parliament, but since the troubles began, successive British governments have worked to find some sort of settlement in NI.

Also, if Britain was guilty of neglect, would British troops have been sent in 1969? Would Westminster pay £3 billion pounds a year to keep NI going?

If Westminister hadnt had given Stormont a 'carte blance' in the governing of Northern Ireland, British troops would not have been needed. As it was, the troops stepped in just as the North seemed ready to explode.

Ulster in its religious makeup does not contain a majority of Protestants. The original format of Ulster consisted of the counties of Donegal, Derry, Antrim, Down, Tyrone, Fermanagh and Monaghan. These counties have a Catholic majority.

When Ireland was partitioned, Unionists sought to create an entity which they alone would dominate, and that meant reducing the size of Northern Ireland, which is what the Border Commission did. This is how Protestants came to have a majority - an artificial majority - in Northern Ireland. And this is why ultimately it wont matter who has a majority in the North, whether there is more Catholics or Protestants. If in 10 years, and its an eventuality thats looking increasingly likely, Catholics outnumber Protestants and vote for a united Ireland, it will not solve the violence. There will still be the bitterness and hatred and all that will change is the roles being played. Ugh....what a rant...

but Ireland makes such good whisky, ale and beer.... a much better charm (chuckle)

Ah yes, but all of those are also made in the Republic, and to my tastes they do a far better job of it than us Northerners.

Look at the mess of ireland compared to either of those countries!

"The mess of Ireland"?

The same Ireland which rates 10th in the UN Human Development Index, compared to the UK in 12th place? The same Ireland which has the fastest growing economy in the EU? the same Ireland which has the 5th highest GDP (nominal) per capita, compared to the UK's 13th place? (4th for Ireland and 16th for the UK with regard to the GDP (PPP) per capita?

Sure now, Eire is not without its problems - the legislation surrounding abortion issues and rights being a prime example - but there are reasons for the phrase 'the Celtic tiger'.

A Dutch king who was supported by the Pope, no less

...winning a battle fought for Catholics by Catholics...

Ulster in its religious makeup does not contain a majority of Protestants. The original format of Ulster consisted of the counties of Donegal, Derry, Antrim, Down, Tyrone, Fermanagh and Monaghan. These counties have a Catholic majority.

When Ireland was partitioned, Unionists sought to create an entity which they alone would dominate, and that meant reducing the size of Northern Ireland, which is what the Border Commission did. This is how Protestants came to have a majority - an artificial majority - in Northern Ireland. And this is why ultimately it wont matter who has a majority in the North, whether there is more Catholics or Protestants. If in 10 years, and its an eventuality thats looking increasingly likely, Catholics outnumber Protestants and vote for a united Ireland, it will not solve the violence. There will still be the bitterness and hatred and all that will change is the roles being played. Ugh....what a rant...
Derry, Antrim, Down, Tyrone, Fermanagh are still part of Northern Ireland, the Border Commission tried to make NI bigger and thus because of pressure from ROI(EDIT: the free state I mean) was scrapped and NI was left as it was. Unless my history teacher is wrong.

Derry, Antrim, Down, Tyrone, Fermanagh are still part of Northern Ireland, the Border Commission tried to make NI bigger and thus because of pressure from ROI(EDIT: the free state I mean) was scrapped and NI was left as it was. Unless my history teacher is wrong.

You forgot Armagh (as for that matter did Hrstrovokia).

Let's face it: to the West of the British Isles there is an island, and drawing a line across it doesn't make it 2 countries. "Northern Ireland" is obviously part of the current Republic, but then again it seems that the Republic doesn't want them... So...
Make it a separate state. That way you annoy the loyalists/unionists and republicans in equal measure, so they'll stop fighting each other and fight Britain instead. Yay.

Damned circular arguments...

Let's face it: to the West of the British Isles there is an island, and drawing a line across it doesn't make it 2 countries.


By this logic the landmass to the east and south of the British Isles should be one nation too, stretching from the tip of Portugal to the fringes of Siberia.

Let's face it: to the West of the British Isles there is an island, and drawing a line across it doesn't make it 2 countries. "Northern Ireland" is obviously part of the current Republic, but then again it seems that the Republic doesn't want them... So...
Make it a separate state. That way you annoy the loyalists/unionists and republicans in equal measure, so they'll stop fighting each other and fight Britain instead. Yay.

Damned circular arguments...


adding onto what BWO said....

"Northern Ireland" (and I don't know why you put it in inverted commas) is NOT part of the Republic of Ireland, nor does it want to be. Just like North Korea and South Korea aren't the same country.

North & South Korea are two seperate, independent entities but the people who make up these nations have alot in common - language, culture, history. Korea is a nation split in two thanks to the Cold War.

In the late 80s to earlier 90s the New Ireland Forum suggested a number of solutions to the problems being experienced in the North, but many of its suggestions were just shot down by the Conservative Margaret Thatcher. One of the many ideas put forward was to create an independent Northern Ireland, free from the control of Dublin and London. Such a Northern Ireland would have to come to terms with itself, come to terms with two peoples living in one society who must ultimately learn to live together. I think the only way to overcome sectarianism [sp?] is for the walls that seperate Catholics and Protestants to be broken down by themselves in the creation of a new state - because how can Republicanism co-exist with Unionism, when these polar opposites are purely based on the antagonism of the other. Think about it.

North & South Korea are two seperate, independent entities but the people who make up these nations have alot in common - language, culture, history. Korea is a nation split in two thanks to the Cold War.

In the late 80s to earlier 90s the New Ireland Forum suggested a number of solutions to the problems being experienced in the North, but many of its suggestions were just shot down by the Conservative Margaret Thatcher. One of the many ideas put forward was to create an independent Northern Ireland, free from the control of Dublin and London. Such a Northern Ireland would have to come to terms with itself, come to terms with two peoples living in one society who must ultimately learn to live together. I think the only way to overcome sectarianism [sp?] is for the walls that seperate Catholics and Protestants to be broken down by themselves in the creation of a new state - because how can Republicanism co-exist with Unionism, when these polar opposites are purely based on the antagonism of the other. Think about it.

The only people in Northern Ireland who want independence from the UK and the Republic are Protestant extremists who take Rhodesia as their model (without those pesky Brits they could REALLY go medeival on the Catholics.) Not a pleasant scenario.

The only people in Northern Ireland who want independence from the UK and the Republic are Protestant extremists who take Rhodesia as their model (without those pesky Brits they could REALLY go medeival on the Catholics.) Not a pleasant scenario.
The IRA are better armed, better funded and better trained than the various Portestant militias.
If it were war between the two sides (without governmental interference) everyone would do terribly, but the Protestants would do more terribly than the Catholics. (Probably.)

Wow. This discussion's become so much more professional since I was last here. Nobody's even talking about the Nazis anymore.

Idealism doesn't get anybody anywhere fast. "Freedom from British oppression" and "reunification of the Celtic homelands" and other such rallying cries mean nothing. Nor do "Britain is Britain" and "right of conquest". Citing ancient conquests and massacres means nothing; you cannot criticise "The British" for being evil butchers. To do so is racist. Simply that. Criticising an entire people for the sins of their ancestors is racist, the same as "Well, we know what those people are like; a black man mugged me!" Simplistic, yes, and just as inaccurate. The situation is not in the past.

The situation is now, and for the time being, the situation is considerably better than it was during the Troubles. I say the Irish keep trying to get hold of Ulster, the British keep trying to keep it, America stays the hell out, and the status quo is maintained. When the balance tips there will be violence, and worse, it will seem as if one side has every reason to be violent. As it stands, Northern Ireland is no longer a warzone, but the former terrorists on both sides have turned to organised crime instead. This may not be such a terrible thing, politically speaking: the death of Robert McCartney at the hands of IRA men now nothing more than gangsters has opened America's eyes to the fact that they cannot claim to be fighting terrorism at the same time as they are funding it.

I'm sorry, idealists, but I think for now, to ask people every seven years what they want is good. Democracy and peace. I'm sure the quiet majority of the Irish would rather see the situation resolved, but without the blood that this generation could not avoid spilling to achieve such an aim. In a few generations, maybe people will be ready to put old "grudges" to bed. Keep asking, I say, and when tensions have died down maybe the question can be answered without bloodshed.

You want to know why the violence continues?

The voice of reason abandons the province on a daily basis. The more likely someone is to be able see through the fascade of Protestantism/Catholicism or Nationalism/Unionism and find the true Gang Warfare nature of the conflict, the more likely they are to leave, emigrating to either the Republic of mainland Britain.

It's Brain Drain on a phenomonal scale. The wisdom of the new generation is being evicted to make way for the new yob culture of tribal hooliganism and raw crime under a protective cloak of "Fighting for a Purpose". And it needs to stop. But it can't. And you know why? Because the source of the problem lies deeper within the mindset of the very people of Ulster.

Northern Ireland is the perfect example of democracy at work. We have proportional representation that is renewed every couple of years. Our politicians are constantly in communication. People vote for whoever they want and, generally, get whoever they want.

What the people want, however, is not what's best for them, particularly in the case of Northern Ireland. Democracy gives us the Ian Paisleys, the Gerry Adamses, the Martin McGuinnesses, and it places them in positions of authority. The Will of the people is unbending; the unionists MUST have a unionist representative to combat the cold, calculating criminal minds of the republicans, and the Catholics MUST have a catholic MP to drive back the hate-inspired campaign of Protestant oppression.

The only hope for progress is to change the mindset of the people, and you must do so under neither of the false banners that fly regularly as a veil to shield the criminals from. But, and here's the big but, the Good Friday Agreement is itself central to preventing this very change. In theory, it's a marvellous idea; protestants and catholics working together to create a government of harmony. Differences can be resolved through dialogue in a way of governing the province without forcing the hand of either Ireland or Britain.

It's an idea that no-one could dispute. So is communism (everyone works together, shares and lives happily ever after). History has shown that nice ideas generally fall apart in the execution, and where the GFA falls down is that in order to have any say in government, you must state a preference.

That's right. In order to have any sort of power in the Northern Irish Executive, you must be Protestant or Catholic. No party to represent the oppressed Racial minorities coming under daily assault on both sides of the divide, no party to represent the dishevelled middle classes who have rid themselves of the prejudices, no party standing for the regulation of womens' rights within the union will EVER get so much as a seat as long as the Good Friday Agreement sits in its current form. The minds of the people are set in a spiral of anger and loathing, and the only way to sort it out is to temporarily ignore their demands for what is effectively state-sponsored Gang Warfare.

But then, the obvious question comes to this: Who can sort it out? Certainly none of the major parties currently in activity; they're all running on their own agenda. Blair and Ahern have evidently given up on any sort of reform plan. Nobody at all trusts the Americans anymore (though I'll not go into that here). What's left? Europe? Maybe. But, of course, the fiercely nationalistic Unionist parties want nothing to do with that either.

It's Gridlock. It's my dream to try to break this abysmal situation, but I can't do it alone. I feel that hope lies in the youth who now flee; those untainted by the sectarian divide. Chances are either way it's going to take a long time. But we can always dream.