NationStates Jolt Archive

Apparently US interrogators at Guantanamo bay have placed copies of the Koran on toilets, and in one instance flushed a copy of the Koran in order to pressure prisoners to talk. This has sparked riots in Jalalabad. Mobs of people trashed the city and went looking for foreigners to kill.

So apparently showing disrespect towards a book justifies rioting and attempting to kill people. Fucking savages.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4535491.stm

Apparently US interrogators at Guantanamo bay have placed copies of the Koran on toilets, and in one instance flushed a copy of the Koran in order to pressure prisoners to talk. This has sparked riots in Jalalabad. Mobs of people trashed the city and went looking for foreigners to kill.

So apparently showing disrespect towards a book justifies rioting and attempting to kill people. Fucking savages.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4535491.stm
I'd kill those damn dirty bastards... ehm... I mean - that's what happens when you use some pretty dastardly interrogation techniques.

I'd kill those damn dirty bastards... ehm... I mean - that's what happens when you use some pretty dastardly interrogation techniques.
I don't think flushing a book down the toilet counts as a dastardly interrogation tactic.

so much for winning over the hearts and minds of the middle easterners

I think it's ridiculous to riot over a religious text being flushed, but that might be because I am not a religious person.

this isnt merely over the holy book though. I listened to the report on teh radio this morning and they were doing it because of the flushing incedent as well as all the other abuses they have heard about going on there. They aren't as dissconeected as we might think in Afganistan

I don't think flushing a book down the toilet counts as a dastardly interrogation tactic.

think for a second though... it might be hard to understand because you are not religious or even spiritual, but if something you believed in with all yoru heart (something that is the most important thing in yrou entire world) was being mocked and attacked and desecrated... wouldnt you get pretty angry?

I don't think flushing a book down the toilet counts as a dastardly interrogation tactic.
So flushing the Koran down the toilet shouldn't be something to anger Muslms? People argue that a riot was needless when Maurice Richard was suspended by the NHL in the playoffs but it was regarded as one of the most glorious events in hockey's history.

think for a second though... it might be hard to understand because you are not religious or even spiritual, but if something you believed in with all yoru heart (something that is the most important thing in yrou entire world) was being mocked and attacked and desecrated... wouldnt you get pretty angry?
The closest thing I have to a religion is my patriotism. I've seen people burning US flags on the news. It doesn't make me want to riot or kill people. If I'd heard that they were flushing copies of the US constitution I'd think they were scumbags, but I wouldn't destroy my city or go looking for someone to kill.

I still think people who want to riot and kill over a book are fucking savages.

So flushing the Koran down the toilet shouldn't be something to anger Muslms? People argue that a riot was needless when Maurice Richard was suspended by the NHL in the playoffs but it was regarded as one of the most glorious events in hockey's history.
Anger them? Sure
Cause them to riot and look for people to kill? No

We have riots in the USA when sports teams win championships. European football teams have to play in empty stadiums because of fan violence. I think rioting over the most sacred text in their religion is more justified than the ridiculous reasons we come up with.

We have riots in the USA when sports teams win championships. European football teams have to play in empty stadiums because of fan violence. I think rioting over the most sacred text in their religion is more justified than the ridiculous reasons we come up with.
Yeah. I guess we've got some fucking savages in the USA, Canada, and Europe too. We should send them to Jalalabad. They could be with people who share their values.

We have riots in the USA when sports teams win championships. European football teams have to play in empty stadiums because of fan violence. I think rioting over the most sacred text in their religion is more justified than the ridiculous reasons we come up with.

*hi5*

seriously - those retarded ass sports fanatics who think its kuhl to trash teh city and set cars on fire because their beloved team lost. I was in LA during that Lakers fiasco and wished someone had shot each and every one of those fukkers.

I still think people who want to riot and kill over a book are fucking savages.
Psht - if someone I knew flushed the Qur'an down the toilet, I'd give em' a good beating. It may be just 'a book' to you but to Muslims around the world - it sure as hell is something way more than just that.

Yeah. I guess we've got some fucking savages in the USA, Canada, and Europe too. We should send them to Jalalabad. They could be with people who share their values.

Exactly my point. The people who are rioting are savages. But they aren't just isolated to the Muslim world. The fans involved in the Pacers-Pistons brawl were savages too, don't you think?

Exactly my point. The people who are rioting are savages. But they aren't just isolated to the Muslim world. The fans involved in the Pacers-Pistons brawl were savages too, don't you think?
Sure do. Says so indirectly in the post you quoted.

Psht - if someone I knew flushed the Qur'an down the toilet, I'd give em' a good beating. It may be just 'a book' to you but to Muslims around the world - it sure as hell is something way more than just that.

Suck it up. It's called free speech, you can flush any book you like down the toilet.

I know muslims don't like free speech, or indeed any other book than koran, but there it is. You'll have to deal with it.

The closest thing I have to a religion is my patriotism. I've seen people burning US flags on the news. It doesn't make me want to riot or kill people. If I'd heard that they were flushing copies of the US constitution I'd think they were scumbags, but I wouldn't destroy my city or go looking for someone to kill.

I still think people who want to riot and kill over a book are fucking savages.


It's not over a book. try to think a bit deeper about it. Just condemning something because you don't understand it makes you look pretty ignorant.

it's over their God, their lifes guide, and not only that it's about how their fellow countrymen are being treated in Guantanamo. There are quite a few afganis there.

I think the riots are stupid as they will do nothing for anyone. There are very few reasons in my mind why a riot would be justified and will make any kind of difference about anything. But I at least understand that their anger isnt over a book.

Psht - if someone I knew flushed the Qur'an down the toilet, I'd give em' a good beating. It may be just 'a book' to you but to Muslims around the world - it sure as hell is something way more than just that.
What is it? The word of god? You would think that the word of god is the message, not just one of countless books where the message is written down.

For example. I happen to treasure the USA. I think the US constitution is one of the most brilliant documents ever written. But a piece of paper with the constitution printed on it is still just a piece of paper. The value of the constitution is when our nation lives up to the principles embodied in that document.

Sure do. Says so indirectly in the post you quoted.

I know; I was just reiterating.

I know muslims don't like free speech, or indeed any other book than koran, but there it is. You'll have to deal with it.

Not true, I happen to like 'The Life of Pi' and the LOTR series a whole lot ;)

Exactly my point. The people who are rioting are savages. But they aren't just isolated to the Muslim world. The fans involved in the Pacers-Pistons brawl were savages too, don't you think?

True that. We should be much harder on people who riot over sports. It is equally retarded.

Suck it up. It's called free speech, you can flush any book you like down the toilet.

I know muslims don't like free speech, or indeed any other book than koran, but there it is. You'll have to deal with it.


I agree it's free speech. But actions like this show the world that America is Anti-Muslim and spreads hatred. Do you think that is the best idea when trying to quell terrorism against the US? Honestly.

yah, if we beat them (which isn't cool imo), the world rips on us

so we're trying (i guess) non-physical means of extracting info.

i don't know... in some ways flushing a book down a toilet doesn't seem like a big deal... on the other hand, I can understand their angst.

What is it? The word of god? You would think that the word of god is the message, not just one of countless books where the message is written down.

For example. I happen to treasure the USA. I think the US constitution is one of the most brilliant documents ever written. But a piece of paper with the constitution printed on it is still just a piece of paper. The value of the constitution is when our nation lives up to the principles embodied in that document.
No offense to Catholics...

The Pope has got dozens of those hats. If a person were to strip that hat off his head and stomp on it, I don't think that many of the Catholics in the world would shrug and ignore it.

And to compare the value of hat in the eyes of Catholics to the Qur'an in the eyes of Muslims is like comparing a house cat to a lion.

I agree it's free speech. But actions like this show the world that America is Anti-Muslim and spreads hatred. Do you think that is the best idea when trying to quell terrorism against the US? Honestly.
Who says we're trying to quell terrorism? Maybe we're just itching for a fight.

Ok, maybe not. You're right in that it doesn't portray us in a favorable light to the moderates.

is there some rule against the use of sodium amatol or other truth serums?

i mean it seems fairly humane, does not patronize any religious beliefs that i know of... etc.

so is there a rule against it? or is it too expensive?

is there some rule against the use of sodium amatol or other truth serums?

i mean it seems fairly humane, does not patronize any religious beliefs that i know of... etc.

so is there a rule against it? or is it too expensive?
Or maybe just long periods of sleep deprivation and sensory deprivation.

I agree it's free speech. But actions like this show the world that America is Anti-Muslim and spreads hatred. Do you think that is the best idea when trying to quell terrorism against the US? Honestly.

I don't know. Do you think the best way for Muslims to reach out to the west is by murdering movie directors, and burning novels in the streets of Birmingham because they are blasphemous?

Free speech is a central tenet of western society, sometimes it offends, so like I said suck it up. It's not a negotiable. Oh and to Muslims that 'cry' because a koran is defiled, grow a pair, somewhere, right now, someplace in the world, someone is defiling the koran. Get used to it.

(BTW, aren't these the same guys who go around blowing up statues of Buddha? - talk about hypocrisy.)

No offense to Catholics...

The Pope has got dozens of those hats. If a person were to strip that hat off his head and stomp on it, I don't think that many of the Catholics in the world would shrug and ignore it.

And to compare the value of hat in the eyes of Catholics to the Qur'an in the eyes of Muslims is like comparing a house cat to a lion.

Well, yes, but because that would be assaulting the Pope. If someone lit a Bible on fire and pissed it out, though, I wouldn't care (unless it was mine). There's too much importance placed in possessions.

is there some rule against the use of sodium amatol or other truth serums?

i mean it seems fairly humane, does not patronize any religious beliefs that i know of... etc.

so is there a rule against it? or is it too expensive?

I think they should use these things too. Give them some extacy and they will love you and spill their heart out.

I don't know. Do you think the best way for Muslims to reach out to the west is by murdering movie directors, and burning novels in the streets of Birmingham because they are blasphemous?

Free speech is a central tenet of western society, sometimes it offends, so like I said suck it up. It's not a negotiable. Oh and to Muslims that 'cry' because a koran is defiled, grow a pair, somewhere, right now, someplace in the world, someone is defiling the koran. Get used to it.

(BTW, aren't these the same guys who go around blowing up statues of Buddha? - talk about hypocrisy.)
Good point. The Taliban did destroy those buddha statues despite the outcry from the world community.

I don't know. Do you think the best way for Muslims to reach out to the west is by murdering movie directors, and burning novels in the streets of Birmingham because they are blasphemous?

Free speech is a central tenet of western society, sometimes it offends, so like I said suck it up. It's not a negotiable. Oh and to Muslims that 'cry' because a koran is defiled, grow a pair, somewhere, right now, someplace in the world, someone is defiling the koran. Get used to it.

(BTW, aren't these the same guys who go around blowing up statues of Buddha? - talk about hypocrisy.)

No I don't think that is teh best way for Muslims to reach out to the world. But like I said, this isnt about a book this is about an attack on their religion and not just by one person but by an entire country.

To them this is not about free speech but about an attack on their very way of life on their own countrymen. Can you see how that might anger thousands?

No offense to Catholics...

The Pope has got dozens of those hats. If a person were to strip that hat off his head and stomp on it, I don't think that many of the Catholics in the world would shrug and ignore it.

And to compare the value of hat in the eyes of Catholics to the Qur'an in the eyes of Muslims is like comparing a house cat to a lion.


That's where you are wrong though. A few years ago, a NYC museum, (Brooklyn to be exact), hosted an art show paid for by the tax payer - the majority of whom are catholics in NYC - that featured a picture of the virgin mary smeared in elephant dung. Literally. There were no riots, only some complaints from the church about tax money being used for this kind of display. (i.e. catholics had to pay to for the "mary desecration").

(Of course the whole thing came to nothing, tax supported are can still be blasphemous, and rightly so).

Compare that to the "satanic verses" affair in the UK.

Also you can't compare ripping someone's hat off their head - assualt and battery - with flushing some paper down a toilet.

bah

perhaps some of those rioting were Taliban I dunno. I cannot say for sure if those rioting were the ones who blew up teh buddha statues but if that was them then yes that is hypocritical. I think that it's pretty scummy to sink to someone elses level though if you are trying to justify the koran flushing.

Thought I would share this:


COWARDICE IN JOURNALISM AWARD FOR NEWSWEEK
Goebbels Award for Condi
by Greg Palast (http://gregpalast.com)

"It's appalling that this story got out there," Secretary of State
Condoleezza Rice said on her way back from Iraq.

What's NOT appalling to Condi is that the US is holding prisoners at
Guantanamo under conditions termed "torture" by the Red Cross. What's
not appalling to Condi is that prisoners of the Afghan war are held in
violation of international law after that conflict has supposedly ended.
What is NOT appalling to Condi is that prisoner witnesses have reported
several instances of the Koran's desecration.

What is appalling to her is that these things were REPORTED. So to
Condi goes to the Joseph Goebbels Ministry of Propaganda Iron Cross.

But I don't want to leave out our President. His aides report that
George Bush is "angry" about the report -- not the desecration of the
Koran, but the REPORTING of it.

And so long as George is angry and Condi appalled, Newsweek knows what
to do: swiftly grab its corporate ankles and ask the White House for
mercy.

But there was no mercy. Donald Rumsfeld pointed the finger at Newsweek
and said, "People lost their lives. People are dead." Maybe Rumsfeld
was upset that Newsweek was taking away his job. After all, it's hard
to beat Rummy when it comes to making people dead.

And just for the record: Newsweek, unlike Rumsfeld, did not kill
anyone -- nor did its report cause killings. Afghans protested when they
heard the Koran desecration story (as Christians have protested crucifix
desecrations). The Muslim demonstrators were gunned down by the Afghan
military police -- who operate under Rumsfeld's command.

Our Secretary of Defense, in his darkest Big Brother voice, added a
warning for journalists and citizens alike, "People need to be very
careful about what they say."

And Newsweek has now promised to be very, very good, and very, very
careful not to offend Rumsfeld, appall Condi or anger George.

For their good behavior, I'm giving Newsweek and its owner, the
Washington Post, this week's Yellow Streak Award for Craven Cowardice in
Journalism.

As always, the competition is fierce, but Newsweek takes the honors by
backing down on Mike Isakoff's expose of cruelity, racism and just
plain bone-headed incompetence by the US military at the Guantanamo prison
camp.

Isakoff cited a reliable source that among the neat little
"interrogation" techniques used to break down Muslim prisoners was putting a copy
of the Koran into a toilet.

In the old days, Isakoff's discovery would have led to Congressional
investigations of the perpetrators of such official offence. The
Koran-flushers would have been flushed from the military, panels would have
been impaneled and Isakoff would have collected his Pulitzer.

No more. Instead of nailing the wrong-doers, the Bush Administration
went after the guy who REPORTED the crime, Isakoff.

Was there a problem with the story? Certainly. If you want to split
hairs, the inside-government source of the Koran desecration story now
says he can't confirm which military report it appeared in. But he saw it
in one report and a witnesses has confirmed that the Koran was defiled.

Of course, there's an easy way to get at the truth. RELEASE THE
REPORTS NOW. Hand them over, Mr. Rumsfeld, and let's see for ourselves
what's in them.

But Newsweek and the Post are too polite to ask Rumsfeld to make the
investigative reports public. Rather, the corporate babysitter for
Newsweek, editor Mark Whitaker, said, "Top administration officials have
promised to continue looking into the charges and so will we." In other
words, we'll take the Bush Administration's word that there is no
evidence of Koran-dunking in the draft reports on Guantanamo.

It used to be that the Washington Post permitted journalism in its
newsrooms. No more. But, frankly, that's an old story.

Every time I say investigative reporting is dead or barely breathing in
the USA, some little smartass will challenge me, "What about Watergate?
Huh?" Hey, buddy, the Watergate investigation was 32 years ago -- that
means it's been nearly a third of a century since the Washington Post
has printed a big investigative scoop.

The Post today would never run the Watergate story: a hidden source
versus official denial. Let's face it, Bob Woodward, now managing editor
at the Post, has gone from "All the President's Men" to becoming the
President's Man -- "Bush at War." Ugh!

And now the Post company is considering further restrictions on the use
of confidential sources -- no more "Deep Throats."

Despite its supposed new concern for hidden sources, let's note that
Newsweek and the Post have no trouble providing, even in the midst of
this story, cover for secret Administration sources that are FAVORABLE to
Bush. Editor Whitaker's retraction relies on "Administration
officials" whose names he kindly withholds.

In other words, unnamed sources are OK if they defend Bush,
unacceptable if they expose the Administration's mendacity or evil.

A lot of my readers don't like the Koran-story reporter Mike Isakoff
because of his goofy fixation with Monica Lewinsky and Mr. Clinton's
cigar. Have some sympathy for Isakoff: Mike's one darn good reporter, but
as an inmate at the Post/Newsweek facilities, his ability to send out
serious communications to the rest of the world are limited.

A few years ago, while I was tracking the influence of the power
industry on Washington, Isakoff gave me some hard, hot stuff on Bill Clinton
-- not the cheap intern-under-the-desk gossip -- but an FBI report for
me to publish in The Guardian of Britain.

I asked Isakoff why he didn't put it in Newsweek or in the Post.

He said, when it comes to issues of substance, "No one gives a sh--,"
not the readers, and especially not the editors who assume that their US
target audience is small-minded, ignorant and wants to stay that way.

That doesn't leave a lot of time, money or courage for real reporting.
And woe to those who practice investigative journalism. As with CBS's
retraction of Dan Rather's report on Bush's draft-dodging, Newsweek's
diving to the mat on Guantanamo acts as a warning to all journalists who
step out of line.

Newsweek has now publicly committed to having its reports vetted by
Rumsfeld's Defense Department before publication. Why not just print
Rumsfeld's press releases and eliminate the middleman, the reporter?

However, not all of us poor scribblers will adhere to this New News
Order. In the meantime, however, for my future security and comfort, I'm
having myself measured for a custom-made orange suit.


********
Greg Palast was awarded the 2005 George Orwell Prize for Courage in
Journalism at the Sundance Film Festival for his investigative reports
produced by the British Broadcasting Corporation. See those reports for
BBC, Harper's, The Nation and others at www.GregPalast.com

I don't think flushing a book down the toilet counts as a dastardly interrogation tactic.If it is a legit interrogation method...Then why is the white house (and the pentagon) in FULL DENIAL MODE ??

the really sad part about the situation is that they are rioting on the baisis of incorrect information about an incident that never happened. the only recorded incident even close to this is when a prisoner, a muslim, put pages of the koran into his toilet to stop it up as a form of protest.

the prblem is that most people in the middle east cannot fathom the seperation between the US media and the US government. if it comes from the US it is somehow sanctioned by the US government.

Sumamba Buwhan
your point is sharing that is?
i could go through and pick out all the glaring errors and mininformation in it, but it would probably take me more than an hour, which i do not have time for(i like to used documents and facts all of which i would have to post).

journalists for the most part are not impartial. they persue agenda's like most other people. regaurdless of his "award" at a trendy film festival mr. palast's personal biased is clearly shown by his ignorance of international law, the geneva conventions and his penchant for writing for a known overtly biased news source like the guardian.

Loseweak retracted the story, indeed, they should never have printed it in the first place, having only a rumour, a non-denial from an uninformed source, and a denial.

That isn't sufficient basis to report that I won a meat tray at a Bowling Club, let alone something as explosive (figuratively and literally) as this.

It should have been consigned to the "Utter Bollocks" tray.

The only possible reason it was printed was pervasive anti-American bias.

Anyway, riots like that, across the Muslim world, are not spontaneous. They are planned in advance.

Read this, please The Long-Planned "Spontaneous" Riots by Dr. Walid Phares (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=18121)