NationStates Jolt Archive

At what point does a baby recieve it's license to be alive? When does it certify as a human life form? As soon as it is out of the womb? Then is it as soon as it is lying on the doctors table, or does its head have to be out? Or all the way down to the legs? I can't understand at what point killing the baby is considered murder. If someone who doesn't want kids is willing to take the risk of getting pregnant, then they are probably capable of putting it up for adoption, but for heavens sake, why do they have to murder a sinless, defenseless baby for the sake of convenience?

I can't wait to see where this will go. :eek: :rolleyes:

Wrong forum. This belongs in the GENERAL forum, not the roleplaying one.

I'm pretty sure you can't get an abortion after the 2nd trimester

ok, im republican, but im pro abortion.

Usually abortions will take place in the first Trimester, and are mostly not allowed during the 2nd and 3rd. in the first trimester, the baby really isnt a baby. It goest through the zygote state, thn to blastula, gastrula and morula. REally in the first trimester, the THING is just a bundle of cells, and getting an abortion is the equivalent of peeling off a scab really. The cells didnt differentiate @ all yet, and at the very end of the first trimester, the cells might have started to resemble a form (however it happens to be the same form that pig, fish, monkey, horse, whale... and all other embryos show).

probably third trimester might be a little "wrong", but first is definately fine.

I'd like to end this with a question i posted in another forum before.

if abortion is murder, is masturbation genocide?

The reason abortion is allowed is because of the Commie Jew Liberal conspiracy, duh.

Does that last part of your message effectively mean that you understand that you are flamebaiting, which is against the rules here?

That said, abortion is legal because the only other option is worse. Back-alley abortions are far more dangerous and result in far more deaths, both to the mother and the fetus.

Abortions are legal through the second trimester. After that, it has become clearly differentiated into the human cells, and lawmakers are too uncomfortable to terminate the fetus at that point.

At what point does a baby recieve it's license to be alive? When does it certify as a human life form? As soon as it is out of the womb? Then is it as soon as it is lying on the doctors table, or does its head have to be out? Or all the way down to the legs? I can't understand at what point killing the baby is considered murder. If someone who doesn't want kids is willing to take the risk of getting pregnant, then they are probably capable of putting it up for adoption, but for heavens sake, why do they have to murder a sinless, defenseless baby for the sake of convenience?

I can't wait to see where this will go. :eek: :rolleyes:

<sigh>

1. Every woman has fundamental rights including rights to self-ownership, bodily intergrity, etc.

2. A zygote, embryo, and early-term fetus has no series claim to personhood or rights. A pig, monkey, or dolphin has a better claim to a right to life.

3. Abortion is generally illegal in the United States after the end of the second trimester, so your hypotheticals are silly. The vast majority of abortions occur within the first few weeks of pregnancy. Abortions past 24 weeks are generally banned except when necessary to preserve the life or health of the mother.

4. Even if a fetus has a claim to life, that does not give it a superior claim to a woman's own body.

5. The mother is the only one in the situation that is a undeniably alive, human, person with rights -- particularly constitutional rights -- in the situation.

6. An unborn child has not constitutional rights.

As to why some abortions are legal in the US, try reading:
Roe v. Wade (http://laws.findlaw.com/us/410/113.html ), 410 US 113 (1973).
Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Penn. v. Casey (http://laws.findlaw.com/us/505/833.html ), 505 US 833 (1992)

States can outlaw abortion after the point of viability.

The reason abortion is allowed is because of the Commie Jew Liberal conspiracy, duh.

I thought it was the Illuminati?

...You didn't hear that from me.

The reason abortion is allowed is because of the Commie Jew Liberal conspiracy, duh.

Actually, it had to do with a little court case known as Roe versus Wade in 1973. The Supreme Court decided the matter 7-2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade

I thought it was the Illuminati?

...You didn't hear that from me.

THERE ARE NO SUCH THINGS AS ORBITAL MIND CONTROL LASERS

One word: Feminists

THERE ARE NO SUCH THINGS AS ORBITAL MIND CONTROL LASERS
Thats what THEY want you to think.

THERE ARE NO SUCH THINGS AS ORBITAL MIND CONTROL LASERS

Of course there are. We're currently constructing one now.

Soon...The Illuminati will rule the world! Muhahaha!

An exhaustive study of the sonogram database has conclusively proven that the soul does not attach to the fetus until the 77th day of pregnancy. This has also been backed up by careful analysis of fluids obtained during amniocentesis. I believe this settles the debate, once and for all.

Thats what THEY want you to think.

:p

abortion is legal because its a private matter that a pregnant woman has to decide. her doctor, her lover, her family and friends all can be consulted but its HER business to decide.

as the embryo grows it becomes more and more society's business as her pregnancy become common knowlege. by the time the fetus is truly able to live on its own outside the uterus, it is impossible to get an abortion for anything but emergency reasons.

Why are abortion THREADS legal? FUCK ME!

According to the Talmud, Nefesh, or life, begins when the head is delivered. Partial birth abortions have long been performed if it is believed the woman will not live otherwise, so it is nothing new. It just used to be a whole lot bloodier in the past.

Why are abortion THREADS legal? FUCK ME!

Because WE own you...

(Insert evil laughter)

An exhaustive study of the sonogram database has conclusively proven that the soul does not attach to the fetus until the 77th day of pregnancy. This has also been backed up by careful analysis of fluids obtained during amniocentesis. I believe this settles the debate, once and for all.

Oh, shiza. No one can scientifically find the soul.

I hereby propose making all abortion talk on NS subject to a direct and immediate ban on all engaging parties.


YOU ARE NEVER GOING TO PROVE ANY-FUCKING-THING! It all boils down to whether an unborn child is a baby or not, and that is just subject to a personal belief. There have been thousands of abortion talks Internet-wide, and I have yet to see one that would be able to convince anyone either way.

Because WE own you...

(Insert evil laughter)

Damn you Bolol!

Seriosuly though, this thread-starter is flamebaiting like a cigar smoker at an oil well.

Actually, I lied.

You want the truth?

It's just another example of this liberal, Jew-run media. OK? Yep. Trying to take over. It's part of their plan. You know, you've got those seven jewish bankers that live in the vault in Switzerland. Miles down in the earth, you kow. Manipulatin' the media. That's what they do. They've got these seven jew bankers all makin' decisions. Makin' decisions, you know.

They are in cahoots with the Lesbian Dentist Cartel. Ok? Yeah. They have a secret society. Lesbian dentists. Planting a chip in your tooth when y'all aren't lookin'. You know?

This has all been prophesized in the Bible, OK? You look up Ecclesiasties 14:12. It says "The lesbian periodontists .... " and I'm paraphrasing here ....

:D

(With apologies to David Cross and anyone without a sense of humor.)

I hereby propose making all abortion talk on NS subject to a direct and immediate ban on all engaging parties.


YOU ARE NEVER GOING TO PROVE ANY-FUCKING-THING! It all boils down to whether an unborn child is a baby or not, and that is just subject to a personal belief. There have been thousands of abortion talks Internet-wide, and I have yet to see one that would be able to convince anyone either way.

Did you think we were going to solve cancer on here if we just stopped arguing?

And, it has been explained to you before, it is not simply about the unborn child.

There is a woman involved. She counts. And her rights don't depend on your opinion.

Okay I agree with And under BOBBY on the first page and this Bolol...
Peeling off a scab is just as bad as abortion according to extremists

Honestly, if you do want to talk about soul, let's delay soul until about at least a few days of life. When a baby is born, it feels no pain and does not fully acquire this sense until a few days after birth, also their brains aren't wired fully; they cannot see objects, can't feel pain, can't think... they only rely on reflexes, which make them worth no more than an animal (not like I'm slammin' babies now; humans in general are no more than animals) 'cause these reflexes are the basis of survival: sucking, grabbing... which are almost like instincts (yes, we have instincts; we just don't notice them because we can't judge ourselves)

Hate me if you will...

Nice Cat-Tribe

Did you think we were going to solve cancer on here if we just stopped arguing?

And, it has been explained to you before, it is not simply about the unborn child.

There is a woman involved. She counts. And her rights don't depend on your opinion.

It's more about if the baby/fetus/cell-clump/whatever-you-want-to-call-it has rights and if so, how do the rights of the baby and the mother relate and to what extent can the mother exercise those rights. Though that takes all the fun out of it when you word it like that. Man these threads suck.

It's my aim in life to scientifically measure the soul.

According to the Talmud, Nefesh, or life, begins when the head is delivered. Partial birth abortions have long been performed if it is believed the woman will not live otherwise, so it is nothing new. It just used to be a whole lot bloodier in the past.


ah, but a baby has only the potential to be a human being after the 30th day of life( that means after birth).


Any child that dies before their 30 days doesnt have to be mourned for



And thus, Judiasm and Catholisism beliefs cancel out each other (plus other belies too. I just dont really know all the specifics) leaving the goal of 'its a sin' to prevent it out of the question

It's my aim in life to scientifically measure the soul.

My soul is 8.75 inches long.

Okay I agree with And under BOBBY on the first page and this Bolol...
Peeling off a scab is just as bad as abortion according to extremists

Honestly, if you do want to talk about soul, let's delay soul until about at least a few days of life. When a baby is born, it feels no pain and does not fully acquire this sense until a few days after birth, also their brains aren't wired fully; they cannot see objects, can't feel pain, can't think... they only rely on reflexes, which make them worth no more than an animal (not like I'm slammin' babies now; humans in general are no more than animals) 'cause these reflexes are the basis of survival: sucking, grabbing... which are almost like instincts (yes, we have instincts; we just don't notice them because we can't judge ourselves)

Hate me if you will...

Nice Cat-Tribe

Did you take exception to the scab analogy because your handle is 'Scabbia'?

Also, where did you get this info? It seems a little off. For one, if you really want to talk about how 'wired' a baby's brain is, you could show how it isn't really fully wired in some aspects until ages 3-5.

The reason abortion is allowed is because of the Commie Jew Liberal conspiracy, duh.


You are a freemason disinformationist, rot in hell, illuminati pig dog.

my take on the subject is that it's because of all the dumbass americans who vote on a president on the only basis of their stance on abortion, when it's up to each individual state government to decide. go ahead and place your faith in the president, and keep thinking that he'll do something about the abortion issue, cause it's not his job to decide that.

Just out of curiosity, how many of you rabid anti-choicers have your organ donor cards completely filled out?

Just out of curiosity, how many of you rabid anti-choicers have your organ donor cards completely filled out?


They had better, I intend to see that not a one of the culpable "i chose health" people gets to kill a sick person through organ greed.

An exhaustive study of the sonogram database has conclusively proven that the soul does not attach to the fetus until the 77th day of pregnancy. This has also been backed up by careful analysis of fluids obtained during amniocentesis. I believe this settles the debate, once and for all.LOL
I think I love you.

Actually, I lied.

You want the truth?

It's just another example of this liberal, Jew-run media. OK? Yep. Trying to take over. It's part of their plan. You know, you've got those seven jewish bankers that live in the vault in Switzerland. Miles down in the earth, you kow. Manipulatin' the media. That's what they do. They've got these seven jew bankers all makin' decisions. Makin' decisions, you know.

They are in cahoots with the Lesbian Dentist Cartel. Ok? Yeah. They have a secret society. Lesbian dentists. Planting a chip in your tooth when y'all aren't lookin'. You know?

This has all been prophesized in the Bible, OK? You look up Ecclesiasties 14:12. It says "The lesbian periodontists .... " and I'm paraphrasing here ....

:D

(With apologies to David Cross and anyone without a sense of humor.)
And it's only a matter of time before someone takes it seriously and starts yelling at you.

Unborn children have no sense of self. They kick and move around, but so does a chicken without its head. A deer being shot has a better claim to life, but very rarely do anti-abortionists oppose hunting.

Oh yeah, there are a few ways to look at abortion:

Pros: Good reasons for abortions
If a girl is raped (Stranger or Incestual)
contraception didn't work (and she was honestly using)
body is not mature (she deserves a spanking)
is mentally retarded
parents want it gone
if she is poor
is not mentally stable
Maybe having a girl get an abortion will teach her a lesson, I'm sure those
clinics are scary... (I've never been in one) Although it may also teach
them that they can fix their problems with some money and *poof*
^ this one may very, you just can't predict it.

Cons: Bad reasons for abortions
she knows better
has a baby for attention
has a baby for boy-screwer to stay with her
purposely poked holes in rubber... it was an old custom for religious people
(I don't know if they still use it)

um... what other stupid statement can I say?

All I know is that abstinence solves many, many, many problems. Trust me, I'm a proud practicer.

You are a freemason disinformationist, rot in hell, illuminati pig dog.

Um no...that would be ME.

Why are abortion THREADS legal? FUCK ME!
Maybe. How old are you? Are you male? What do you look like?

Just out of curiosity, how many of you rabid anti-choicers have your organ donor cards completely filled out?

Don't get me started on people who aren't organ donors. It sucks that you've gotta fill out cards though, we just say yes or no to it when we get our driver's licenses.

Did you take exception to the scab analogy because your handle is 'Scabbia'?

Also, where did you get this info? It seems a little off. For one, if you really want to talk about how 'wired' a baby's brain is, you could show how it isn't really fully wired in some aspects until ages 3-5.


Yeah... Dude, I agree. Actually I was reading his post and was thinking that cutting yourself is killing skin cells, so I so agree with him whether it's a scab or not!

I know children's brains aren't fully wired until even about 6 (they all develop at different paces). I just didn't want someone to tell me how stupid I was saying that children know how to speak before they can physically talk... and several other comments to burn me. They enjoy that, at least what I said is true!

abortin is legal because it tickles and makes great salsa.
Q how do you fit 200 babies in a phone booth?
A use a blender.
Q how do you get them out?
A nachos

LOL
I think I love you.

My soul cries out for you!

My soul is 8.75 inches long.
Mine is 2 feet long...

Oh wait we are talking souls here :P

Maybe. How old are you? Are you male? What do you look like?

21/Male/Hotter than a....defrosted piece of meat left in the sun, so so-so.

Did you think we were going to solve cancer on here if we just stopped arguing?

And, it has been explained to you before, it is not simply about the unborn child.

There is a woman involved. She counts. And her rights don't depend on your opinion.
Yes. However everyone agrees that a fetus is a human, most would also agree that a woman doesn't have the right to kill it. On the other hand, if everyone agrees that a fetus is not a human, than most would agree that a woman has a right to remove it from her body.

Therefore it all boils down to whether or not it's considered a human. Everyone has their own opinion on this, and in all my forum-life, noone has yet succeeded to convince someone else to adopt their view.

My soul is 8.75 inches long.
that is ....significantly above average

Just out of curiosity, how many of you rabid anti-choicers have your organ donor cards completely filled out?
As soon as I turn 18.

Yes. However everyone agrees that a fetus is a human, most would also agree that a woman doesn't have the right to kill it. On the other hand, if everyone agrees that a fetus is not a human, than most would agree that a woman has a right to remove it from her body.

Therefore it all boils down to whether or not it's considered a human. Everyone has their own opinion on this, and in all my forum-life, noone has yet succeeded to convince someone else to adopt their view.
sigh
a fetus is human but its not a baby
its alive but its not a person

Yes. However everyone agrees that a fetus is a human, most would also agree that a woman doesn't have the right to kill it. On the other hand, if everyone agrees that a fetus is not a human, than most would agree that a woman has a right to remove it from her body.

Therefore it all boils down to whether or not it's considered a human. Everyone has their own opinion on this, and in all my forum-life, noone has yet succeeded to convince someone else to adopt their view.

Wrong.

First of all, the relevant question isn't "human" it is personhood.

Secondly, whether the fetus is a person does not determine the issue. Even assuming a fetus is a person, it does not have a superior claim to a woman's own body. SHE IS A PERSON!

And she is an autonomous moral agent that can make her own damn decision about her own body.

Abortion should be legal for only two reasons:

1. The life of the Mother may be endangered. Or:

2. The life of the Father may be inconvenienced.

Okay I agree with And under BOBBY on the first page and this Bolol...
Peeling off a scab is just as bad as abortion according to extremists

Honestly, if you do want to talk about soul, let's delay soul until about at least a few days of life. When a baby is born, it feels no pain and does not fully acquire this sense until a few days after birth, also their brains aren't wired fully; they cannot see objects, can't feel pain, can't think... they only rely on reflexes, which make them worth no more than an animal (not like I'm slammin' babies now; humans in general are no more than animals) 'cause these reflexes are the basis of survival: sucking, grabbing... which are almost like instincts (yes, we have instincts; we just don't notice them because we can't judge ourselves)

Hate me if you will...

Nice Cat-Tribe

Ummm...I am not sure where you get your info on human development but you are somewhat off. The Fetus/baby/whatever you want to call it can feel before it leaves the womb. There is a strong correlation (big word i know but look it up) between playing classical music to a baby in the womb and later that kid's ability in mathematics and others like that (not a direct causal relationship...look up some studies i am too lazy and tired to do it for you).

You want to know why abortions are legal? Here it is, back in the day it was up to state legislatures to decide whether it was legal or not (back when states had some more power that the federal government is slowly draining them of). Then In one of the southern states where abortion was illegal (no surprises about the geographics, right?) A court case was filed against it. It went up and up to the Supreme Court. The Judges on the Supreme Court decided that it was a women's right to have an abortion. Thus it became the law of the land. That is why it is legal. Fundamentalist and just conservative christians don't worry about. Teach your kids that they shouldn't have one if your so against it. Don't worry about everyone else. Think of it as just more elbow room in heaven for you. No point in trying to 'save' the soul of a person who doesn't believe they have one.

Here's a common misconception though. If Roe v Wade is overturned abortions don't automatically go to being illegal but rather it has to once again be decided by state legislatures. So it would become the represantitives of the people to decide whether it to be legal or not rather then appointed judges. Which would be the one closer to a democratic solution?

Yes. However everyone agrees that a fetus is a human, most would also agree that a woman doesn't have the right to kill it. On the other hand, if everyone agrees that a fetus is not a human, than most would agree that a woman has a right to remove it from her body.

Therefore it all boils down to whether or not it's considered a human. Everyone has their own opinion on this, and in all my forum-life, noone has yet succeeded to convince someone else to adopt their view.

I used to be fairly pro-life now I would say I am pro-choice except I think the way the whole thing is handled by either extreme is just recockulous!

21/Male/Hotter than a....defrosted piece of meat left in the sun, so so-so.Me - 40, female, vary between balmy and red hot. :D

Wrong.

First of all, the relevant question isn't "human" it is personhood.

Secondly, whether the fetus is a person does not determine the issue. Even assuming a fetus is a person, it does not have a superior claim to a woman's own body. SHE IS A PERSON!

And she is an autonomous moral agent that can make her own damn decision about her own body.
Aight, so lets assume that we have agreed that an unborn baby is a person from it's concievement (I know we didn't. ASSUME).

You are still saying that abortion should be allowed. But why does the comfort of one person for 9 months has to be more important than life of another person? It's like let's say you and I go hiking. Suddenly, you fall off. Fortunately, we are tied by one rope, and I hold fast, so we are not falling off. You are hanging off the rope, and the top part of the rope is wrapped around my waist. Now I am very uncomfortable. The rope is very tight around my waist, and it's hard to breathe. ANd my arms hurt from holding the weight of two people. Nevertheless, my life is not in danger. So do I have the right to cut the rope and let you fall, or do I have to wait until the helicopter gets there and rescues both of us?

Me - 40, female, vary between balmy and red hot. :D
Going after 21 year olds....

Cradlerobber.

Abortion should be legal for only two reasons:

1. The life of the Mother may be endangered. Or:

2. The life of the Father may be inconvenienced.

i like you more every day

Maybe. How old are you? Are you male? What do you look like?

Hey! What am I, chopped liver? ;)

Or is a desperate cry necessary? :D

Abortion should be legal for only two reasons:

1. The life of the Mother may be endangered. Or:

2. The life of the Father may be inconvenienced.
What if the life of the Father is endangered or the life of the Mother is inconvinienced.

Me - 40, female, vary between balmy and red hot. :D

While the whole older woman thing is tempting, I'm spoken for but you can't go wrong with balmy. Is there more a sensual word than balmy? If there is, I haven't heard it and don't want to!

Yes. However everyone agrees that a fetus is a human, most would also agree that a woman doesn't have the right to kill it. On the other hand, if everyone agrees that a fetus is not a human, than most would agree that a woman has a right to remove it from her body.

Therefore it all boils down to whether or not it's considered a human. Everyone has their own opinion on this, and in all my forum-life, noone has yet succeeded to convince someone else to adopt their view.

Honestly, we're all animals and if you want to get to the nitty gritty... *Gets old bio notes, but first gets mommy some juice*

Animalia
Chordata
Mammalia
Primata
Hominidae
Homo
sapiens

Thus, we are Homo sapiens! You earned a star! We are not created by God, we evolved (survival of the fitest evolution) from primates. How can we tell this? Many, Many several different species that seem like us and like primates have existed, but most failed and became extinct. They would walk on two legs or four, but are they like us or are they like apes? I dunno. I have a couple species examples... anyway, back to abortion...

Did you think we were going to solve cancer on here if we just stopped arguing?

And, it has been explained to you before, it is not simply about the unborn child.

There is a woman involved. She counts. And her rights don't depend on your opinion.
that is the best explainotion i have heatrd on this thread

My soul is 8.75 inches long.

In your dreams, Gartref.....

DOn't like abortion? Don't have one.

Keep your laws off my body!!!

Aight, so lets assume that we have agreed that an unborn baby is a person from it's concievement (I know we didn't. ASSUME).

You are still saying that abortion should be allowed. But why does the comfort of one person for 9 months has to be more important than life of another person? It's like let's say you and I go hiking. Suddenly, you fall off. Fortunately, we are tied by one rope, and I hold fast, so we are not falling off. You are hanging off the rope, and the top part of the rope is wrapped around my waist. Now I am very uncomfortable. The rope is very tight around my waist, and it's hard to breathe. ANd my arms hurt from holding the weight of two people. Nevertheless, my life is not in danger. So do I have the right to cut the rope and let you fall, or do I have to wait until the helicopter gets there and rescues both of us?

Are you arguing you should be legally required to hold the rope for 9 months?

Not what you should do, but what you should be forced to do?

I'd say no. You are should not be forced to hold the rope for 9 months.

And that isn't even me living inside you!

Honestly, we're all animals and if you want to get to the nitty gritty... *Gets old bio notes, but first gets mommy some juice*

Animalia
Chordata
Mammalia
Primata
Hominidae
Homo
sapiens

Thus, we are Homo sapiens! You earned a star! We are not created by God, we evolved (survival of the fitest evolution) from primates. How can we tell this? Many, Many several different species that seem like us and like primates have existed, but most failed and became extinct. They would walk on two legs or four, but are they like us or are they like apes? I dunno. I have a couple species examples... anyway, back to abortion... WTF does evolution have to do with anything?????

Going after 21 year olds....

Cradlerobber.

Cradlerobber? Then why is she pro-choice? :P

Ok, that was kind of a distastful joke.....but I'm a bastard sometimes damnit!

The abortian issue has even gone to the question to if a baby is human or not because some pro-choice nuut thought that killing tha baby after is was born, left the hospital, and taken home was a good idea. If a woman is attached to another person because they were born conjoined twins, and the woman wants the other unattached and killed, does that mean that the other person should be murdered? After all, it is the woman's body. The thing that seperates late-term abortions from early child birth is if the doctor kills it or not. The American society is slowly moving towards a do-anything-you-want society with abortions, bygomy and cult movements, and even the legalization of drugs ideas. We need some restraint in the American public because they choose who will be president of the USA, who is the most powerful person in the world. You'll all agree on that once your towns are vaporized in mushroom clouds because you pissed off the president. He's also commander-in-chief of the US military, so if he wants to take over a nation and Congress, whose members are also elected, let's him, Earth will be renamed the USA. Yep, scary thought, isn't it. The femenists are gaining too much ground. The extreme liberals and extreme conservitives are tearing apart whatever control the US public has over itself. The terrorists will win if democracy and freedom become anarchy and tyrany from the street gangs and militias.

Are you arguing you should be legally required to hold the rope for 9 months?

Not what you should do, but what you should be forced to do?

I'd say no. You are should not be forced to hold the rope for 9 months.

And that isn't even me living inside you!
Yes, I should be legally required to hold the rope for a limited time necesary, uf your life depends on it. And no, you are not living inside me, nevertheless your survival depends on the rope, which causes me uncomfortableness.

And I know that I wouldn't be able to hold the rope for 9 months because I would probably faint after a few hours. However let's not forget that carrying a full grown person is harder than carrying around a 20 lbs baby.

In your dreams, Gartref.....

DOn't like abortion? Don't have one.

Keep your laws off my body!!!

Don't like murders? Don't get shot!

or don't get conceived by a pro-choice mother who wants an abortion.

Sorry, I'm mostly pro-choice [not 100%] so am on your side but I like to play devil's advacote[sp?] in some discussions and the pro-life side's numbers need some boosting. Ignore this part though, just read the top. I mean it, stop looking here, shoo!

At what point does a baby recieve it's license to be alive? When does it certify as a human life form? As soon as it is out of the womb? Then is it as soon as it is lying on the doctors table, or does its head have to be out? Or all the way down to the legs? I can't understand at what point killing the baby is considered murder. If someone who doesn't want kids is willing to take the risk of getting pregnant, then they are probably capable of putting it up for adoption, but for heavens sake, why do they have to murder a sinless, defenseless baby for the sake of convenience?

I can't wait to see where this will go. :eek: :rolleyes:

You have a right to an opinion, and to tell others about it, but that right comes with a responsibility. That responsibility is to make sense and get your argument straight.

This topic is called "Why is abortion legal?" ...your arguments are just telling us why abortion is bad. The point about abortion being legal, is that if you don't want to have one - you don't have to. Whereas if it's illegal, everyone loses their freedom of choice. That includes the people who don't want an abortion anyway - because now, they aren't not having an abortion because of thier principles, their nto having an abortion because they can't.

Someone who feels having a child is "inconvenient" wouldn't make a very good mother anyway - the adoption system is overcrowded and it's hard to tell which would be worse for the child. Still, in a case like this, I don't approve of abortion, because if it's alive the kid at least has a *chance*.

But what if they have a horrible illness which means they won't survive long anyway? What if it's a danger to the mothers life to have the child? Why not have the *option* of only losing one life, inistead of two? If it was illegal for all non-medical purposes, there would be so many people who slip through the cracks, because it takes so long to get the doctor to sign off on it, or just because the law is unclear on that type of problem. And what about rape? Don't rape victims have some rights, after all that psychological trauma?

Also, you don't sound like one of the religious-grounds people, but in case you are, that argument is extremely hypocritical - these people won't let a girl terminate a pregnancy, and then she has the baby out of wedlock and they all ostracise her to protect their image.

Here's the ideal situation: Abortion remains legal, but anyone who doesn't have a doctors certificate gets bombarded with pamphlets about adoption and told sternly to consider all options, because this one is permanent.

The abortian issue has even gone to the question to if a baby is human or not because some pro-choice nuut thought that killing tha baby after is was born, left the hospital, and taken home was a good idea. If a woman is attached to another person because they were born conjoined twins, and the woman wants the other unattached and killed, does that mean that the other person should be murdered? After all, it is the woman's body. The thing that seperates late-term abortions from early child birth is if the doctor kills it or not. The American society is slowly moving towards a do-anything-you-want society with abortions, bygomy and cult movements, and even the legalization of drugs ideas. We need some restraint in the American public because they choose who will be president of the USA, who is the most powerful person in the world. You'll all agree on that once your towns are vaporized in mushroom clouds because you pissed off the president. He's also commander-in-chief of the US military, so if he wants to take over a nation and Congress, whose members are also elected, let's him, Earth will be renamed the USA. Yep, scary thought, isn't it. The femenists are gaining too much ground. The extreme liberals and extreme conservitives are tearing apart whatever control the US public has over itself. The terrorists will win if democracy and freedom become anarchy and tyrany from the street gangs and militias.
While the second part of yuor post is a random rant, I already argued the first part, which was countered with "a baby is not a person", which I countered with "yes it is", which was countered with "is not" which was countered with "is too" which i countered with "is not infinity!" etc...

The abortian issue has even gone to the question to if a baby is human or not because some pro-choice nuut thought that killing tha baby after is was born, left the hospital, and taken home was a good idea. If a woman is attached to another person because they were born conjoined twins, and the woman wants the other unattached and killed, does that mean that the other person should be murdered? After all, it is the woman's body. The thing that seperates late-term abortions from early child birth is if the doctor kills it or not. The American society is slowly moving towards a do-anything-you-want society with abortions, bygomy and cult movements, and even the legalization of drugs ideas. We need some restraint in the American public because they choose who will be president of the USA, who is the most powerful person in the world. You'll all agree on that once your towns are vaporized in mushroom clouds because you pissed off the president. He's also commander-in-chief of the US military, so if he wants to take over a nation and Congress, whose members are also elected, let's him, Earth will be renamed the USA. Yep, scary thought, isn't it. The femenists are gaining too much ground. The extreme liberals and extreme conservitives are tearing apart whatever control the US public has over itself. The terrorists will win if democracy and freedom become anarchy and tyrany from the street gangs and militias.

Ooooookay then. Is this a poor joke or a cry for help? :confused:

Ummm...I am not sure where you get your info on human development but you are somewhat off. The Fetus/baby/whatever you want to call it can feel before it leaves the womb. There is a strong correlation (big word i know but look it up) between playing classical music to a baby in the womb and later that kid's ability in mathematics and others like that (not a direct causal relationship...look up some studies i am too lazy and tired to do it for you). solution?


On the contrary, mr./miss... person... dude... thing... You're referencing to the sense of hearing. A baby can recognize familiar sounds, however, playing Mozart will not turn a baby into a genius; that is left to genetics to decide how smart or stupid it will be. Hearing is, I think but am not sure, probably one of the first senses that develop because the temporal lobe is closest to the ears. A baby cannot see because info has to travel all the way to the back of the brain and the sense of pain must travel up the arm and to the brain and back down to the arm again, well, n/m because that's wrong, I think it is something called "efferent" but I'm stupid anyway (don't listen to me). The ear is located snuggly against its processing station, so it may make sense that you can hear because info doesn't travel as far and have to go through all of those synapses... *head ache sets in*

*shuts up*

BTW, Cat-tribe. I think you will appriciate that I thought it over, and decided to support the equal work-equal pay doctrine.

playing Mozart will not turn a baby into a genius; that is left to genetics to decide how smart or stupid it will be
Well, the upbringing plays a role too.

The abortian issue has even gone to the question to if a baby is human or not because some *RIGHT HERE IS WHERE THINGS STARTED TO GO FUNKY* pro-choice nuut thought that killing tha baby after is was born, left the hospital, and taken home was a good idea. If a woman is attached to another person because they were born conjoined twins, and the woman wants the other unattached and killed, does that mean that the other person should be murdered? After all, it is the woman's body. The thing that seperates late-term abortions from early child birth is if the doctor kills it or not. The American society is slowly moving towards a do-anything-you-want society with abortions, bygomy and cult movements, and even the legalization of drugs ideas. We need some restraint in the American public because they choose who will be president of the USA, who is the most powerful person in the world. You'll all agree on that once your towns are vaporized in mushroom clouds because you pissed off the president. *BY THIS POINT YOU'D JUST LOST IT* He's also commander-in-chief of the US military, so if he wants to take over a nation and Congress, whose members are also elected, let's him, Earth will be renamed the USA. Yep, scary thought, isn't it. The femenists are gaining too much ground. The extreme liberals and extreme conservitives are tearing apart whatever control the US public has over itself. The terrorists will win if democracy and freedom become anarchy and tyrany from the street gangs and militias.*ABORTION LEADS TO TERRORISM, THIS LEADS TO THE DARK SIDE NEXT?*

:confused:

oh yeah, just because a baby can recognize sounds and voices (sounds basically) doesn't mean that the baby "knows" what it is or who it is hearing. It is simply a reflex, almost as if you heard your name whispered and turned your head... you don't know who said it, but you've been exposed to it so often that you've become sensitized to it... same with a baby in the womb, hearing mom's voice after birth sparks a memory of that sound...

Yes, I should be legally required to hold the rope for a limited time necesary, uf your life depends on it. And no, you are not living inside me, nevertheless your survival depends on the rope, which causes me uncomfortableness.

And I know that I wouldn't be able to hold the rope for 9 months because I would probably faint after a few hours. However let's not forget that carrying a full grown person is harder than carrying around a 20 lbs baby.

Your hypothetical, bud. Not my problem if you don't like the outcome.

How long can you legally be forced to hold the rope?

Assuming you could hold it 9 months, then 9 months?

And pregnancy is more than "uncomfortableness" -- it carries serious physical, emotional, social, and economic risks and costs.

The abortian issue has even gone to the question to if a baby is human or not because some pro-choice nuut thought that killing tha baby after is was born, left the hospital, and taken home was a good idea. If a woman is attached to another person because they were born conjoined twins, and the woman wants the other unattached and killed, does that mean that the other person should be murdered? After all, it is the woman's body. The thing that seperates late-term abortions from early child birth is if the doctor kills it or not. The American society is slowly moving towards a do-anything-you-want society with abortions, bygomy and cult movements, and even the legalization of drugs ideas. We need some restraint in the American public because they choose who will be president of the USA, who is the most powerful person in the world. You'll all agree on that once your towns are vaporized in mushroom clouds because you pissed off the president. He's also commander-in-chief of the US military, so if he wants to take over a nation and Congress, whose members are also elected, let's him, Earth will be renamed the USA. Yep, scary thought, isn't it. The femenists are gaining too much ground. The extreme liberals and extreme conservitives are tearing apart whatever control the US public has over itself. The terrorists will win if democracy and freedom become anarchy and tyrany from the street gangs and militias.
pass the bong this way.

(Just kidding)

BTW, Cat-tribe. I think you will appriciate that I thought it over, and decided to support the equal work-equal pay doctrine.

Sweet! So someone's opinion was influenced by these forums!!

Good for you! :)

Your hypothetical, bud. Not my problem if you don't like the outcome.

How long can you legally be forced to hold the rope?

Assuming you could hold it 9 months, then 9 months?

And pregnancy is more than "uncomfortableness" -- it carries serious physical, emotional, social, and economic risks and costs.
yes, 9 months.

And assume that while I am holding that rope, money is slowly falling out of my pocket, the rope bruises my skin, i am feeling really upset emotionally, (I think i covered the "physical, emotional, and economic risks and costs" here) I dont argee with social, because what social ostrasizement is there really in the modern day society for getting pregnant? Most people will probably be sympathetic.

Your hypothetical, bud. Not my problem if you don't like the outcome.

How long can you legally be forced to hold the rope?

Assuming you could hold it 9 months, then 9 months?

And pregnancy is more than "uncomfortableness" -- it carries serious physical, emotional, social, and economic risks and costs.

With the rope analogy, say you did decide you arms were too tired and cut the rope? What would that be? Murder? Manslaughter? Negligence leading to death? Self-defence? or Ruled down to right of choice?

Sweet! So someone's opinion was influenced by these forums!!

Good for you! :)
Don't get me wrong, I am still against modern feminism...

On the contrary, mr./miss... person... dude... thing... You're referencing to the sense of hearing. A baby can recognize familiar sounds, however, playing Mozart will not turn a baby into a genius; that is left to genetics to decide how smart or stupid it will be. Hearing is, I think but am not sure, probably one of the first senses that develop because the temporal lobe is closest to the ears. A baby cannot see because info has to travel all the way to the back of the brain and the sense of pain must travel up the arm and to the brain and back down to the arm again, well, n/m because that's wrong, I think it is something called "efferent" but I'm stupid anyway (don't listen to me). The ear is located snuggly against its processing station, so it may make sense that you can hear because info doesn't travel as far and have to go through all of those synapses... *head ache sets in*

*shuts up*

It is Mr. for future reference. The persons post who I was responding to said they had basicly no perception to anything until a couple days after birth which is quite untrue. Once again it won't make them a genius but a correlation exist between playing classical and improved math and math related abilities. This is because the two are on the same hemisphere of the brain. Lets explore this, if you don't know about this consider it a little lesson, When you think of a first chair violinist in a high school band, there is a strong chance that this is going to be an above 4.0 student. Genetics is not the only factor that plays into intelligence. As it does play quite a role, I would say nurture is far a bigger influence. You see, no matter how smart genetically a kid is, if they put forth no effort they will not learn a damn thing. While a kid that may have to struggle with concepts can learn them. Humans have the capability to learn. You being able to read this is a prime example of this, no one is born with the ability to read. No one is born with the ability to do math, some will be more inclined to and that will result from both genetics and experiences during growth. Nature and nurture defines who we are, which one plays the more important role is left up to which school of psychology you believe.

Well, the upbringing plays a role too.

Very true, upbringing does play a role. Capacity for learning is genetic. IQ tests are so inaccurate, they lie. A kid going to good schools and getting straight A's won't mean that he is more intelligent than a kid going to a poor school and gets C's across the board. He/she may be smarter considering societal standards, but what about the child without the opportunity to express him/herself... I dunno. I used to get straight C's, but then people started telling me I was stupid. Then I really showed them with A's across the board the next following years. I didn't used to be "intelligent" compared to what people think was "intelligent," but I proved my capacity to learn was quite awesome... Damn Spanish teachers *grumbles*

Anyway, upbringing does play a role. I'm not slammin' you, I just like to share thoughts and feelings *glee* since I'm all happy and stuff like that

With the rope analogy, say you did decide you arms were too tired and cut the rope? What would that be? Murder? Manslaughter? Negligence leading to death? Self-defence? or Ruled down to right of choice?
Manslaugheter probably. because murder usually means yuo planned the death, and negligence means yuo cut the rope by accident. Self defense would be if he purposely jumped off to take me down with him.

Going after 21 year olds....

Cradlerobber.In my whole life I've dated two older guys. My ex is seven years younger. My mother dated a guy I went to school with. (family tradition?) What can I say? Other than I have great fun cradle robbing. :D

Maybe abortion would keep me from dating your son in twenty years. I don't have kids, I don't want them. I'm sexually actve but careful. Hopefully I'll never have to make the decision, but I want to know the full spectrum of choices will be there for me. And for my nieces.

Very true, upbringing does play a role. Capacity for learning is genetic. IQ tests are so inaccurate, they lie. A kid going to good schools and getting straight A's won't mean that he is more intelligent than a kid going to a poor school and gets C's across the board. He/she may be smarter considering societal standards, but what about the child without the opportunity to express him/herself... I dunno. I used to get straight C's, but then people started telling me I was stupid. Then I really showed them with A's across the board the next following years. I didn't used to be "intelligent" compared to what people think was "intelligent," but I proved my capacity to learn was quite awesome... Damn Spanish teachers *grumbles*

Anyway, upbringing does play a role. I'm not slammin' you, I just like to share thoughts and feelings *glee* since I'm all happy and stuff like that
YEa, that's true. You know, Einstein was failing high school. He got an 'F' in physics.

Maybe abortion would keep me from dating your son in twenty years.
Or dating me right now. I am only 16 you know...


And your mother dating your schoolmate.. that's like that movie, 8 Mile.

Hey! What am I, chopped liver? ;)

Or is a desperate cry necessary? :DI already know I want you. I don't even care what you look like.
But there are things that would be a plus. *wink wink*

It is Mr. for future reference. The persons post who I was responding to said they had basicly no perception to anything until a couple days after birth which is quite untrue. Once again it won't make them a genius but a correlation exist between playing classical and improved math and math related abilities. This is because the two are on the same hemisphere of the brain. Lets explore this, if you don't know about this consider it a little lesson, When you think of a first chair violinist in a high school band, there is a strong chance that this is going to be an above 4.0 student. Genetics is not the only factor that plays into intelligence. As it does play quite a role, I would say nurture is far a bigger influence. You see, no matter how smart genetically a kid is, if they put forth no effort they will not learn a damn thing. While a kid that may have to struggle with concepts can learn them. Humans have the capability to learn. You being able to read this is a prime example of this, no one is born with the ability to read. No one is born with the ability to do math, some will be more inclined to and that will result from both genetics and experiences during growth. Nature and nurture defines who we are, which one plays the more important role is left up to which school of psychology you believe.


Okay, answer this... isn't mathematical ability (logic) on the left hemisphere of the brain and Music Appreciation on the right hemisphere? Are they boys or girls? Did they develop early or late? I'm not a musician, but explain why I'm awesome at math and want to pursue a career in it. Oh, but you know, my GPA isn't over a 4.0, but it is a 3.9 (somethin', somethin'). I hate statistics...

snip I haven't been sleeping much lately, but I'm not sure it'd make sense anyway.

Okay, answer this... isn't mathematical ability (logic) on the left hemisphere of the brain and Music Appreciation on the right hemisphere? Are they boys or girls? Did they develop early or late? I'm not a musician, but explain why I'm awesome at math and want to pursue a career in it. Oh, but you know, my GPA isn't over a 4.0, but it is a 3.9 (somethin', somethin'). I hate statistics...
May I suggest you go to Applied Math. It gets more job offers than pure Math. Of course Math in a double major with a practical major is even better.

In my whole life I've dated two older guys. My ex is seven years younger. My mother dated a guy I went to school with. (family tradition?) What can I say? Other than I have great fun cradle robbing. :D

Maybe abortion would keep me from dating your son in twenty years. I don't have kids, I don't want them. I'm sexually actve but careful. Hopefully I'll never have to make the decision, but I want to know the full spectrum of choices will be there for me. And for my nieces.

I bet your a freak in the sack. Not a selfish lover either. Am I right or what?

May I suggest you go to Applied Math. It gets more job offers than pure Math. Of course Math in a double major with a practical major is even better.

Well, yeah, a career in mathematics... I pretty much see physics fitting right now; that may be what I meant *smilies*

At what point does a baby recieve it's license to be alive? When does it certify as a human life form? As soon as it is out of the womb? Then is it as soon as it is lying on the doctors table, or does its head have to be out? Or all the way down to the legs? I can't understand at what point killing the baby is considered murder. If someone who doesn't want kids is willing to take the risk of getting pregnant, then they are probably capable of putting it up for adoption, but for heavens sake, why do they have to murder a sinless, defenseless baby for the sake of convenience?

I can't wait to see where this will go. :eek: :rolleyes:its their body,people should have a right to get rid of somthing they didnt want,why would someone want a baby to be born in this terrible world!

Here's food for thought:

If a woman has a miscarriage and abortion is illegal... can she be arrested? Since technically a miscarriage is an abortion.

I bet your a freak in the sack. Not a selfish lover either. Am I right or what?Since you're taken, you'll just have to get back to me if that changes. :D

Okay, answer this... isn't mathematical ability (logic) on the left hemisphere of the brain and Music Appreciation on the right hemisphere? Are they boys or girls? Did they develop early or late? I'm not a musician, but explain why I'm awesome at math and want to pursue a career in it. Oh, but you know, my GPA isn't over a 4.0, but it is a 3.9 (somethin', somethin'). I hate statistics...

The reason deals with the composition of the music. If you bothered to look up some of the statistics that I referred to not all type of music help. Rock 'n' Roll tended to do more damage then good. It is not a proven fact that playing classical music makes a better mathematician but statistically with all the studies done on it there is a correlation. Not a causal relationship between the two (in other words, If blank, then blank) but rather that more times then not it does HELP. Key word there is help. It does not hold true in all cases. Learning though is not mutually exclusive to the subjects. Learning multiple languages tends to also help students over all performance. Here is another example. Statistically speaking, which this is all this is, people who take latin also see improved scores all over the board on standardized testing. I also never said that yo have to have a 4.0 to be good at math. I listed a specific example that if you bothered to think about it would probably wind up true. Not much difference between a 4.0 and a 3.98.

Also for note, the more solidified the two hemispheres are, the for lack of better word, the more intelligent the person is.

its their body,people should have a right to get rid of somthing they didnt want,why would someone want a baby to be born in this terrible world!
Because if the baby is a person, they have no right to let that person die so they don't feel uncomfortable for 9 months. Read the damn thread, not just the topic and the first post.

Actually, I lied.

You want the truth?

It's just another example of this liberal, Jew-run media. OK? Yep. Trying to take over. It's part of their plan. You know, you've got those seven jewish bankers that live in the vault in Switzerland. Miles down in the earth, you kow. Manipulatin' the media. That's what they do. They've got these seven jew bankers all makin' decisions. Makin' decisions, you know.

They are in cahoots with the Lesbian Dentist Cartel. Ok? Yeah. They have a secret society. Lesbian dentists. Planting a chip in your tooth when y'all aren't lookin'. You know?

This has all been prophesized in the Bible, OK? You look up Ecclesiasties 14:12. It says "The lesbian periodontists .... " and I'm paraphrasing here ....

:D

(With apologies to David Cross and anyone without a sense of humor.)
*leaves to go meet at the Jewish Congress to decide how to control the media*

Here's food for thought:

If a woman has a miscarriage and abortion is illegal... can she be arrested? Since technically a miscarriage is an abortion.
No. She didn't do anything wrong.

Why isn't capital punishment illegal? What;s your point? Another hardline, right to lifer. If want to live in a country where all the laws are based on religious beliefs maybe you should move to Iran!

Don't get me wrong, I am still against modern feminism...

What about murdering a girl you knock up who decides to get an abortion?

Or throwing your kids out if they happen to be gay?

its their body,people should have a right to get rid of somthing they didnt want,why would someone want a baby to be born in this terrible world!
Hey! Lay of this 'terrible world', that's where I live buddy!

*leaves to go meet at the Jewish Congress to decide how to control the media*
Oh, where is the meeting this year? because last year it was in Austria, but they moved it now.

Statistically speaking, which this is all this is, people who take latin also see improved scores all over the board on standardized testing. I also never said that yo have to have a 4.0 to be good at math. It may be sociological. A person who takes latin is probably already a "nerd".

What about murdering a girl you knock up who decides to get an abortion?

Or throwing your kids out if they happen to be gay?
Yea, that all stays. I don't really see anything wrong with this. I view aborton as murder of a child. I mean what if someone killed your child? Even if it was their mother?

Because if the baby is a person, they have no right to let that person die so they don't feel uncomfortable for 9 months. Read the damn thread, not just the topic and the first post.
a baby is a person a fetus is NOT.

Why isn't capital punishment illegal? What;s your point? Another hardline, right to lifer. If want to live in a country where all the laws are based on religious beliefs maybe you should move to Iran!
Capital punishment is different, because the person getting killed there did something very bad (as killing more than one person) and thus deserves to get killed. If a baby is a person, then it is innocent, and didn't do anything to deserve death.

The reason deals with the composition of the music. If you bothered to look up some of the statistics that I referred to not all type of music help. Rock 'n' Roll tended to do more damage then good. It is not a proven fact that playing classical music makes a better mathematician but statistically with all the studies done on it there is a correlation. Not a causal relationship between the two (in other words, If blank, then blank) but rather that more times then not it does HELP. Key word there is help. It does not hold true in all cases. Learning though is not mutually exclusive to the subjects. Learning multiple languages tends to also help students over all performance. Here is another example. Statistically speaking, which this is all this is, people who take latin also see improved scores all over the board on standardized testing. I also never said that yo have to have a 4.0 to be good at math. I listed a specific example that if you bothered to think about it would probably wind up true. Not much difference between a 4.0 and a 3.98.

Also for note, the more solidified the two hemispheres are, the for lack of better word, the more intelligent the person is.


I will agree with you, I was mainly just being butt-headedly-ish. Yeah, probably composition of music over the "beauty" of things is more logically related. What do you mean by solidified? Lateralized or no?

Yea, that all stays. I don't really see anything wrong with this. I view aborton as murder of a child. I mean what if someone killed your child? Even if it was their mother?


I would hope that they spent the rest of their life in prison. Murdering them wouldnt make your kid come back.

And in the case of abortion, you didnt have a kid to begin with, so your murder fantasy is especially perverse.

a baby is a person a fetus is NOT.
And I say that a fetus is a person. Now convince me otherwise. Let me save yuo time: you won't be able to. Just like I won't be able to convince you that a fetus is a person. Noone so far, in my experience, succeeded in convincing anyone about the personity(not a real word) of a fetus. It's a lost cause, and that's why I propose that abortion topics should be banned. It's just a waste of time.

Oh, where is the meeting this year? because last year it was in Austria, but they moved it now.

It may be sociological. A person who takes latin is probably already a "nerd".

If it is sociological then it is not genetic but rather nurture. Which is what I have been trying to say affects this all along.

a baby is a person a fetus is NOT.
Proof?

ok, im republican, but im pro abortion.

Usually abortions will take place in the first Trimester, and are mostly not allowed during the 2nd and 3rd. in the first trimester, the baby really isnt a baby. It goest through the zygote state, thn to blastula, gastrula and morula. REally in the first trimester, the THING is just a bundle of cells, and getting an abortion is the equivalent of peeling off a scab really. The cells didnt differentiate @ all yet, and at the very end of the first trimester, the cells might have started to resemble a form (however it happens to be the same form that pig, fish, monkey, horse, whale... and all other embryos show).

probably third trimester might be a little "wrong", but first is definately fine.

I'd like to end this with a question i posted in another forum before.

if abortion is murder, is masturbation genocide?

Sperm with an egg and sperm without an egg are two entirely different things. How can people call an embryo a thing? That is repulsive to me! What is so wrong with adoption?The issue here is not about whether it is murder or not. The issue is that there is potential life, and we shouldn't decide if that life should be lived or not. I was adopted, and I'm glad my mother didn't abort me, because I don't think that's her choice. It's my choice. You don't choose for something else to live or die, whether it is already alive or not. That choice is made when you choose to have sex or not. If you risk fertalizing an egg, then you are creating potential life, and from that point on it shouldn't be messed with. What is so horrible about the thought of adoption anyways? Most babies are adopted, it's the kids that lose their parents later in life that usually fill up foster homes.

I would hope that they spent the rest of their life in prison. Murdering them wouldnt make your kid come back.

And in the case of abortion, you didnt have a kid to begin with, so your murder fantasy is especially perverse.
Well I say a fetus IS a kid. Then we go back to the entire "is a fetus a person" issue, which, as I am arguing, cannot be won.

And you may think that a prison is worse than capital punishment, i think otherwise.

Let me put things this way:

in all pregnancies, there is the choice to let the child come to full term.

somebody has to make that choice.

here are the possibilities:

1) The Government
2) The Parents


let's think about this here: you can have a guy in a suit and tie up in washington spend five minutes before signing a paper that makes the choice for you, or you can leave the responsability with the parents, whose lives it more immenditely affects.

Either way, the parents will have to live with the decision for their entire lives.

I will agree with you, I was mainly just being butt-headedly-ish. Yeah, probably composition of music over the "beauty" of things is more logically related. What do you mean by solidified? Lateralized or no?
More connections from left or right I think in our psych we used a different word lateralized may be another term for it. But you seem to actually know what I am talking about and if you want a good laugh just read the post i originally responded to.

Why isn't capital punishment illegal? What;s your point? Another hardline, right to lifer. If want to live in a country where all the laws are based on religious beliefs maybe you should move to Iran!LOL
I have a bumpersticker that says "If you want to live in a country run by religion move to Iran."

Well I say a fetus IS a kid. Then we go back to the entire "is a fetus a person" issue, which, as I am arguing, cannot be won.

And you may think that a prison is worse than capital punishment, i think otherwise.
here's a nice piece of evidence in favor for fetus=human. It's called DNA.

Well I say a fetus IS a kid. Then we go back to the entire "is a fetus a person" issue, which, as I am arguing, cannot be won.

And you may think that a prison is worse than capital punishment, i think otherwise.


It isnt a question of "worse" it is a question of civilization.

here's a nice piece of evidence in favor for fetus=human. It's called DNA.


I imagine that you will be first in line with the submachine gun when we line those mass murdering amutation surgeons up at the ditch's edge.


What with all those feet/hand/thumb/toe/appendix = dna = human that they've been murdering in cold blood!

Let me put things this way:

in all pregnancies, there is the choice to let the child come to full term.

somebody has to make that choice.

here are the possibilities:

1) The Government
2) The Parents


let's think about this here: you can have a guy in a suit and tie up in washington spend five minutes before signing a paper that makes the choice for you, or you can leave the responsability with the parents, whose lives it more immenditely affects.

Either way, the parents will have to live with the decision for their entire lives.
So parents are allowed to do whatever they want with their kid? They can hit him/her, torture him/her, rape him/her, and the government doesn't get a say in this?

I imagine that you will be first in line with the submachine gun when we line those mass murdering amutation surgeons up at the ditch's edge.


What with all those feet/hand/thumb/toe/appendix = dna = human that they've been murdering in cold blood!
Why would I kill anyone, as previously posted I am against abortion but if you want to have one go ahead. It really doesn't affect me. If you remove a thumb from a body it will not grow. It is dead. But hypothetically speaking, if you take a dna sample from an embryo and then take another from the child after birth and then another 10 years down the line, the dna samples wont be any different.

It isnt a question of "worse" it is a question of civilization.
So you say capital punishment is uncivilized? But why? Why should a person who killed 120 people be allowed to live, even in prison? That kind of person is not likely to change. And it is always possible to break out of prison, or get an amnesty.

Let me put things this way:

in all pregnancies, there is the choice to let the child come to full term.

somebody has to make that choice.

here are the possibilities:

1) The Government
2) The Parents


let's think about this here: you can have a guy in a suit and tie up in washington spend five minutes before signing a paper that makes the choice for you, or you can leave the responsability with the parents, whose lives it more immenditely affects.

Either way, the parents will have to live with the decision for their entire lives.

The same guy in that suit & tie tells me I can't shoot a random person on the street. Should that decision also be removed from him and left soley up to me?

I'm going to step out of Devil mode for a minute and actually address the point of this thread [it has become about abortion being good vs. bad rather than the legality].

Why is abortion legal? Well the fetus is not a citizen of the country which governs the laws. Therefore it has no rights under the law of that country nor any country which could prosecute the mother, weather it is murder or not.

Abortion is a tricky one. Deny the choice of a woman, or permit a child to be killed before it really has a chance to live? A woman should be able to decide, since it is her baby after all, but it's almost murder.
There is no easy answer for this one, we'll just have to see what happens.

I imagine that you will be first in line with the submachine gun when we line those mass murdering amutation surgeons up at the ditch's edge.


What with all those feet/hand/thumb/toe/appendix = dna = human that they've been murdering in cold blood!
Well is abortion is made illegal, and a gynecologist keeps practicing, than that gynecologist should be prosecuted. Maybe not by hibernoie, but by the government. Maybe, he/she should even get a death sentence.

I try to be consistent. I support abortion and the death penalty. We really need the space for Pandas.

If I'm honest though, I really am not Pro-Choice. I don't think there should be a choice. I think abortion should be mandatory.

I think the Federal Government should prohibit people from giving birth until they pass a pyschological screening test and then post a $5,000 bond. If you want a kid, you should have to apply for a Federal license. Pass the state, local and federal tests. Post your bond. Then there should be a lot of additional unnecessary red-tape and verbal abuse. Then you can have a kid.

Did you know that Neanderthals ("cave men" for the laymen) would sacrifice a baby to save the rest of their group. Where did we go wrong?

If you put a baby in the middle of nowhere with an adult and a giant scary beast runs up... will you sacrifice yourself for the baby?

...............
THINK
...............










Once the beast is satisfied with you, who will it turn on? Duh! Both Die!

Now turn it the other way around and guess what, the more capable and more able to survive and more reproductive one survives!

So is a baby more valuable than an adult? If you had a baby out with you and in order to survive, would you sacrifice the baby or yourself knowing that neither will live, what would you do?

Although, that is not at all relative to our conventional standards, it's true.

Yes, you may hate me now. In this situation, you cannot tell me that the baby can survive and there is no way to burn me by telling me I'm wrong!

Why is abortion legal? Well the fetus is not a citizen of the country which governs the laws. Therefore it has no rights under the law of that country nor any country which could prosecute the mother, weather it is murder or not.
A panda bear is not a citizen of US either, however, you are not allowed to shoot it.

I try to be consistent. I support abortion and the death penalty. We really need the space for Pandas.

If I'm honest though, I really am not Pro-Choice. I don't think there should be a choice. I think abortion should be mandatory.

I think the Federal Government should prohibit people from giving birth until they pass a pyschological screening test and then post a $5,000 bond. If you want a kid, you should have to apply for a Federal license. Pass the state, local and federal tests. Post your bond. Then there should be a lot of additional unnecessary red-tape and verbal abuse. Then you can have a kid.
Wouldn't a reversible vasectemy (sp?) in a guy be a better way to do that? Then no unwanted pregnancies, no unreported pregnancies, and you still have to go through the government with all the tests to be able to have a kid.

Did you know that Neanderthals ("cave men" for the laymen) would sacrifice a baby to save the rest of their group. Where did we go wrong?

If you put a baby in the middle of nowhere with an adult and a giant scary beast runs up... will you sacrifice yourself for the baby?

...............
THINK
...............










Once the beast is satisfied with you, who will it turn on? Duh! Both Die!

Now turn it the other way around and guess what, the more capable and more able to survive and more reproductive one survives!

So is a baby more valuable than an adult? If you had a baby out with you and in order to survive, would you sacrifice the baby or yourself knowing that neither will live, what would you do?

Although, that is not at all relative to our conventional standards, it's true.

Yes, you may hate me now. In this situation, you cannot tell me that the baby can survive and there is no way to burn me by telling me I'm wrong!
I would pick the baby up, and run with it. It's only like 5 lbs, so it's not really going to slow me down.

The same guy in that suit & tie tells me I can't shoot a random person on the street. Should that decision also be removed from him and left soley up to me?

that decision affects his life, his rights, and the removal of such more than it affects yours.

no.[/QUOTE]

A panda bear is not a citizen of US either, however, you are not allowed to shoot it.
That's because they are protected under different laws. A cow is not a citizen either [of any country, there is a world outside the US] but I can shoot a cow and eat it.

vasectemy (sp?) .
Vasectomy.

Vasectomy.
Damn so close

I try to be consistent. I support abortion and the death penalty. We really need the space for Pandas.

If I'm honest though, I really am not Pro-Choice. I don't think there should be a choice. I think abortion should be mandatory.

I think the Federal Government should prohibit people from giving birth until they pass a pyschological screening test and then post a $5,000 bond. If you want a kid, you should have to apply for a Federal license. Pass the state, local and federal tests. Post your bond. Then there should be a lot of additional unnecessary red-tape and verbal abuse. Then you can have a kid.


*Applauds* Well Done, stupendous... You deserve a star sticker!

That's because they are protected under different laws. A cow is not a citizen either [of any country, there is a world outside the US] but I can shoot a cow and eat it.
And a fetus would be protected under a yet different law.

I try to be consistent. I support abortion and the death penalty. We really need the space for Pandas.

If I'm honest though, I really am not Pro-Choice. I don't think there should be a choice. I think abortion should be mandatory.

I think the Federal Government should prohibit people from giving birth until they pass a pyschological screening test and then post a $5,000 bond. If you want a kid, you should have to apply for a Federal license. Pass the state, local and federal tests. Post your bond. Then there should be a lot of additional unnecessary red-tape and verbal abuse. Then you can have a kid.
Your Australian eh?

That's because they are protected under different laws. A cow is not a citizen either [of any country, there is a world outside the US] but I can shoot a cow and eat it.


Do you own the cow?

that decision affects his life, his rights, and the removal of such more than it affects yours.

no.

Do, if a fetus is a person [which is debatable and unprovable either way I know] then isn't his life and rights and the removal of them more an affect on his rights than the affect of not being able to have an abortion is on the mother's rights?

So you say capital punishment is uncivilized? But why? Why should a person who killed 120 people be allowed to live, even in prison? That kind of person is not likely to change. And it is always possible to break out of prison, or get an amnesty.


There is a je ne sais quoi about civilization that really cannot be explained.

there was a story in the news once that a man was shooting his puppies because he had too many and no one would buy them from him... one of the puppies pulled the trigger and shot him. He was later tried for cruelty to animals.

And I say that a fetus is a person. Now convince me otherwise. Let me save yuo time: you won't be able to. Just like I won't be able to convince you that a fetus is a person. Noone so far, in my experience, succeeded in convincing anyone about the personity(not a real word) of a fetus. It's a lost cause, and that's why I propose that abortion topics should be banned. It's just a waste of time.

Please explain why an embryo has a right to life and you are justified in murdering someone for destroying it -- but a monkey, a pig, or a dolphin do not have such a right and can be killed for any number of reasons, like they are tasty or are in the way of tuna that are tasty.

Do you own the cow?
Yes. I'm not going to shoot someone else's cow. However, I could shoot a wild cow and that would be OK too.

Please explain why an embryo has a right to life and you are justified in murdering someone for destroying it -- but a monkey, a pig, or a dolphin do not have such a right and can be killed for any number of reasons, like they are tasty or are in the way of tuna that are tasty.
Dolphin eaters get such a bad wrap around here.

And I say that a fetus is a person. Now convince me otherwise. Let me save yuo time: you won't be able to. Just like I won't be able to convince you that a fetus is a person. Noone so far, in my experience, succeeded in convincing anyone about the personity(not a real word) of a fetus. It's a lost cause, and that's why I propose that abortion topics should be banned. It's just a waste of time.
i dont have to convince you. all that is needed is for it to be recognized in law

oh it is.

guess that means i win.

Yes. I'm not going to shoot someone else's cow. However, I could shoot a wild cow and that would be OK too.
I don't know. If there isn't a cow hunting season or if it weren't threatening your life you couldn't shoot a wild cow. Its been awhile since I have heard about a person's life getting threatened by a cow.

The same guy in that suit & tie tells me I can't shoot a random person on the street. Should that decision also be removed from him and left soley up to me?

I'm going to step out of Devil mode for a minute and actually address the point of this thread [it has become about abortion being good vs. bad rather than the legality].

Why is abortion legal? Well the fetus is not a citizen of the country which governs the laws. Therefore it has no rights under the law of that country nor any country which could prosecute the mother, weather it is murder or not.

Actually, I think it is still about legality.

Doom777 thinks women should be legally forced to carry a pregnancy to birth.

I would pick the baby up, and run with it. It's only like 5 lbs, so it's not really going to slow me down.

Three words... Shaken Baby Syndrome

Not all babies are 5 pounds

You would have to make sure you didn't swing it too much otherwise it really will be worthless (I do have friends that are mentally impared btw) and running with hands still doesn't help balance...

That's because they are protected under different laws. A cow is not a citizen either [of any country, there is a world outside the US] but I can shoot a cow and eat it.

In Florida you can shoot a cow even if the cow is not immediately dangerous. Cow citizenship is a beefier question, though. Many cows hold dual citizenship in India - so they have diplomatic immunity. It has been determined through a number of court challenges that you can legally shoot a sacred cow in Florida - but only if it is in a persistent vegetative state. Unless of course, it's pregnant and the cow fetus is in the third trimester. Clear?

here's a nice piece of evidence in favor for fetus=human. It's called DNA.
of course a fetus is human
its just not a baby

Actually, I think it is still about legality.

Doom777 thinks women should be legally forced to carry a pregnancy to birth.
And Cat-Tribe thinks that babies should be legally forced to die if their mothers so desire.

Please explain why an embryo has a right to life and you are justified in murdering someone for destroying it -- but a monkey, a pig, or a dolphin do not have such a right and can be killed for any number of reasons, like they are tasty or are in the way of tuna that are tasty.
Because I think that an embryo is as much of a person as you or me. Take a person who is paralized, blind, deaf,mute, and needs to be both on the respirator and a feeding tube all the time. Can that person be put to death if his/her relatives so desire? Yes, under current law. However what if it was known for sure, that in 9 months, that person would be fully healed. Could that person be put to death by his family then? Hell no! Same thing with the baby.

of course a fetus is human
its just not a baby
Thanks for clarifying that...makes all the difference in the world.

In Florida you can shoot a cow even if the cow is not immediately dangerous. Cow citizenship is a beefier question, though. Many cows hold dual citizenship in India - so they have diplomatic immunity. It has been determined through a number of court challenges that you can legally shoot a sacred cow in Florida - but only if it is in a persistent vegetative state. Unless of course, it's pregnant and the cow fetus is in the third trimester. Clear?Cool.

yes, 9 months.

And assume that while I am holding that rope, money is slowly falling out of my pocket, the rope bruises my skin, i am feeling really upset emotionally, (I think i covered the "physical, emotional, and economic risks and costs" here) I dont argee with social, because what social ostrasizement is there really in the modern day society for getting pregnant? Most people will probably be sympathetic.

So, despite the cost to you (which could include permanent damage, death, inability to have children in the future, losing your job, depression, risk of suicide, etc), you are guilty of a crime -- a homicide -- if you do not hold onto the rope for 9 months?

Why?

Why are you legally obligated to subjugate yourself to me?

If I need someone's kidney, can I force them to give it to me?

Where does liberty fit into your view?

Methinks you are being intellectually dishonest.

I don't know. If there isn't a cow hunting season or if it weren't threatening your life you couldn't shoot a wild cow. Its been awhile since I have heard about a person's life getting threatened by a cow.
You can replace cow with a wild dangerous animal if you'd like or a fish.

Actually, I think it is still about legality.

Doom777 thinks women should be legally forced to carry a pregnancy to birth.
Then my work here is done.

In Florida you can shoot a cow even if the cow is not immediately dangerous. Cow citizenship is a beefier question, though. Many cows hold dual citizenship in India - so they have diplomatic immunity. It has been determined through a number of court challenges that you can legally shoot a sacred cow in Florida - but only if it is in a persistent vegetative state. Unless of course, it's pregnant and the cow fetus is in the third trimester. Clear?

Ok that just ruled. BTW are you Aussie or American?

So, despite the cost to you (which could include permanent damage, death, inability to have children in the future, losing your job, depression, risk of suicide, etc), you are guilty of a crime -- a homicide -- if you do not hold onto the rope for 9 months?

Why?

Why are you legally obligated to subjugate yourself to me?

If I need someone's kidney, can I force them to give it to me?

Where does liberty fit into your view?

Methinks you are being intellectually dishonest.

Bottom line is....I aint ever going rock climbing with either of you!

And Cat-Tribe thinks that babies should be legally forced to die if their mothers so desire.


Because I think that an embryo is as much of a person as you or me.
No, Cat-Tribe has said nothing that would lead a reasonible person to think that. Fetus=/= baby.
Embryo=/=baby.
Doctors seem to realize this.

And Cat-Tribe thinks that babies should be legally forced to die if their mothers so desire.

Not babies. Not at any point.

I accurately described your view didn't I. You didn't return the courtesy.


Because I think that an embryo is as much of a person as you or me.

Not an answer. The question is why the one and not the others?

Why a zygote or an embryo but not a monkey, pig, or dolphin?

How can you justify the distinction?

Bottom line is....I aint ever going rock climbing with either of you!

:D

So, despite the cost to you (which could include permanent damage, death, inability to have children in the future, losing your job, depression, risk of suicide, etc), you are guilty of a crime -- a homicide -- if you do not hold onto the rope for 9 months?

Why?

Why are you legally obligated to subjugate yourself to me?

If I need someone's kidney, can I force them to give it to me?

Where does liberty fit into your view?

Methinks you are being intellectually dishonest.

Ah but heres the catch, is it your fault your kidney went out? I think almost everyone but the most extreme rightist would agree to abortions in the instance of rape, incest or mothers life is in danger. But if a girl decides to spread her legs with out taking any precautions (yes i know contraceptives can break but still offer a lot more protection then none), it is her and the guys fault. If she gets herpes from him, nothing in the world can change that. Pregnancy is the consequence of her action. Yes, some sex ed classes teach about pregnancy right along side STDs. Seeing that pregnancy can only come through sex.

Thanks for clarifying that...makes all the difference in the world.
you dont see the difference between a clump of human tissue the size of a raisin and a full grown baby?

So, despite the cost to you (which could include permanent damage, death, inability to have children in the future, losing your job, depression, risk of suicide, etc), you are guilty of a crime -- a homicide -- if you do not hold onto the rope for 9 months?

Why?

Why are you legally obligated to subjugate yourself to me?

If I need someone's kidney, can I force them to give it to me?

Where does liberty fit into your view?

Methinks you are being intellectually dishonest.
Because your life is more important than my economic, physicial, etc costs. And don't include death, inability to have children in the future, and permanent damage in the list, because we are talking about a regular pregnancy, not one which is dangerous. THE ONLY TIME i support abortion, if it is dangerous to the mother's life.

you dont see the difference between a clump of human tissue the size of a raisin and a full grown baby?
So your saying that size makes a difference? Or am I missing the logic here?

Ok that just ruled. BTW are you Aussie or American?

Born: Baltimore Maryland.
Lived: Springfield IL, Sioux Falls SD, Tahlequah OK
Currently: Phoenix AZ

Fantasy Birthplace: Wales. Cause if it aint Welsh, It's crap.

Americans are restless.

you dont see the difference between a clump of human tissue the size of a raisin and a full grown baby?
Perhaps the problem is that you think you DO see a difference when really it might just be the size and outward appearence that is different but what they actually are is not.

Every single living creature on this earth is a citizen of this planet. There is one rule: survive. I am for women's rights all the way, but if she cannot take care of the baby while it is within her body or out, then she should get an abortion or adopt, respectively.

If a mother is addicted to drugs, she should have an abortion because this leads to permanent illnesses that do not allow a child to perform as a productive citizen.

If a mother, father, care-provider is too poor, abusive, mentally unstable, then special precautions should be made.

All decisions here should be made by government and made laws or something. Why? Abuse runs in cycles; no matter what type, an individual that suffers abuse as a child will more than likely express abuse as an adult. The government should regulate this more closely because people don't stop breeding and the people who do keep breeding and more rapidly are those that are in poorer homes ("white trash" mainly who have kids when they're 15 and drop out of school). These situations are endless.

So your saying that size makes a difference? Or am I missing the logic here?
not size
development

Because I think that an embryo is as much of a person as you or me.

I don't think you understand the term "person."

And you didn't answer the question asked.

Take a person who is paralized, blind, deaf,mute, and needs to be both on the respirator and a feeding tube all the time. Can that person be put to death if his/her relatives so desire? Yes, under current law.

Um. No. Not the current law. :rolleyes:

However what if it was known for sure, that in 9 months, that person would be fully healed. Could that person be put to death by his family then? Hell no! Same thing with the baby.

Differences:

1. Person on tubes never lost personhood.

2. Embryo never had it.

3. Cannot "know for sure" that zygote or embryo will become a person if not aborted. Many don't. But you assume they will.

(Setting aside the woman and her body, of course.)

Born: Baltimore Maryland.
Lived: Springfield IL, Sioux Falls SD, Tahlequah OK
Currently: Phoenix AZ

Fantasy Birthplace: Wales. Cause if it aint Welsh, It's crap.

Americans are restless.

Cool. It's just weird, I've never heard an American refer to the government as the federal government though over here it is common terminology.

It's a cool word too, federal. NOt as good as BALMY though.

not size
development
Oh...so a full grown adult has more of a right to choice and life then a toddler.

Not babies. Not at any point.

I accurately described your view didn't I. You didn't return the courtesy.

Ok. And Cat-Tribe thinks that fetuses should be legally forced to die if their mothers so desire. Better?

The problem is that I still think that a fetus is a person, and yuo think it's not. And it is almost impossible to prove either way.


Not an answer. The question is why the one and not the others?

Why a zygote or an embryo but not a monkey, pig, or dolphin?

How can you justify the distinction?
Because, if left alone, a zygote will transform into a fully functioning human, however a monkey, pig, or dolphin will not.

Cannot "know for sure" that zygote or embryo will become a person if not aborted. Many don't. But you assume they will.


So the kids in third world countries which most will not see adulthood can be killed off?

Perhaps the problem is that you think you DO see a difference when really it might just be the size and outward appearence that is different but what they actually are is not.
you know a zygote, an embryo and a 1st trimester fetus (if they are considered fetus at that point) are not just tiny babies that if you could peer into the uterus would look like the kid on the gerber baby food jars.

Oh...so a full grown adult has more of a right to choice and life then a toddler.
legally yes, children are under the control of their parents who make all choices for them.

but a baby IS a person eh?

Because your life is more important than my economic, physicial, etc costs. And don't include death, inability to have children in the future, and permanent damage in the list, because we are talking about a regular pregnancy, not one which is dangerous. THE ONLY TIME i support abortion, if it is dangerous to the mother's life.

A regular pregnancy carries a risk of all those things and more.

And -- by your own words in this post -- you would require the pregnancy to go forward even if it may cause permanent damage, sterility, etc.

So, my life is more important than anything less than your life. So, to sustain me I can demand anything of you -- body parts, whatever -- for at least nine months and perhaps with permanent consequences if necessary to save my life.

If I am starving while on the rope, can I eat your leg?

And, again, we aren't talking what you should do -- but what you must do under penalty of law.

Well guys this has actually been a pretty good discussion but I have to get out of here and do soemthing today. Damn NationStates general takes up so much of my time, I should block it from my comp. Anyways, have a good one y'all!

Why is abortion legal?

No one here has even tried to answer the original question. You have all been debating whether abortion should or should not be legal.

If the question is just: Why is abortion legal? - Then the obvious answer is that the over-whelming majority of people wish it to be legal, and so it is.

Next topic?

Ah but heres the catch, is it your fault your kidney went out? I think almost everyone but the most extreme rightist would agree to abortions in the instance of rape, incest or mothers life is in danger. But if a girl decides to spread her legs with out taking any precautions (yes i know contraceptives can break but still offer a lot more protection then none), it is her and the guys fault. If she gets herpes from him, nothing in the world can change that. Pregnancy is the consequence of her action. Yes, some sex ed classes teach about pregnancy right along side STDs. Seeing that pregnancy can only come through sex.

First, don't even use that "spread her legs" expression. It should be beneath you.

Second, did you realize that studies have shown about one-half of women that seek abortions were using at least one form of contraception?

Third, why should pregnancy be a punishment for sex? What is the father's punishment?

Cool. It's just weird, I've never heard an American refer to the government as the federal government though over here it is common terminology.

It's a cool word too, federal. NOt as good as BALMY though.

I must have picked it up from Cat-Tribe, he knows all the Australian lingo.

you know a zygote, an embryo and a 1st trimester fetus (if they are considered fetus at that point) are not just tiny babies that if you could peer into the uterus would look like the kid on the gerber baby food jars.

Ofcourse they don't look like a tiny baby. However, they ARE a tiny baby just in such an early development stage that they don't, at that point, LOOK like one.

Anyway, I'm off so i'll stop playing a pro-life guy because I actually agree with you. Feel free to reply to that though, I'm just trying to fuel conversation.

No one here has even tried to answer the original question. You have all been debating whether abortion should or should not be legal.

If the question is just: Why is abortion legal? - Then the obvious answer is that the over-whelming majority of people wish it to be legal, and so it is.

Next topic?
it WAS answered very early on by the poster who said "roe v. wade"

at least that is the answer for the US. i dont know how it got legal in other countries.

I don't think you understand the term "person."

And you didn't answer the question asked.



Um. No. Not the current law. :rolleyes:

Sure they can. Remember the Terry Sciavo case?


Differences:

1. Person on tubes never lost personhood.

2. Embryo never had it.

3. Cannot "know for sure" that zygote or embryo will become a person if not aborted. Many don't. But you assume they will.

(Setting aside the woman and her body, of course.)
However, i believe that an embryo IS a person, so prove me otherwise. You won't be able to, just like I won't be able to prove that it is a person.
Also, while I don't have the statistics, I think it's pretty safe to say that, 99% of zygotes that don't get aborted live to see their birth. If the paralized guy had a 99% chance of healing in 9 month, the relatives would still not be allowed to kill him.


And instead of the woman in her body, this example has the relatives. Although they don't have to carry a fetus in their bodies, they still bear tremendous economic costs, a lot more than a woman needs to upkeep the baby.

Because, if left alone, a zygote will transform into a fully functioning human, however a monkey, pig, or dolphin will not.

If left alone, a zygote will shrivel up and die. Remember that it is completely dependent on the mother's health whether a zygote will turn into a human being. Monkeys, pigs, and dolphins are smarter than you think... :)

So the kids in third world countries which most will not see adulthood can be killed off?

Did I say that? No.

That is an absurd attempt at a strawman.

Kids are persons. They have brain functions, sapience, etc.

They also do not live within another person's body.

A regular pregnancy carries a risk of all those things and more.

And -- by your own words in this post -- you would require the pregnancy to go forward even if it may cause permanent damage, sterility, etc.

So, my life is more important than anything less than your life. So, to sustain me I can demand anything of you -- body parts, whatever -- for at least nine months and perhaps with permanent consequences if necessary to save my life.

If I am starving while on the rope, can I eat your leg?

And, again, we aren't talking what you should do -- but what you must do under penalty of law.
A very small risk. And yes, your life is more important than anything less than my life. IF you are starving so bad, you are about to die, yuo can gnaw on my leg.

it WAS answered very early on by the poster who said "roe v. wade"

at least that is the answer for the US. i dont know how it got legal in other countries.

By directly contradicting me like that, you shrunk my soul by 2 inches. Thanks.

No one here has even tried to answer the original question. You have all been debating whether abortion should or should not be legal.

If the question is just: Why is abortion legal? - Then the obvious answer is that the over-whelming majority of people wish it to be legal, and so it is.

Next topic?

Check my first post, sparky. :p

The Constitution plays a role as well.

Gartref.......marry me.
Seriously, the most sensible person on this entire board, and yet infused with a refreshing sense of humour.

(Gypsy curse declares I must refer to all that banter as "infused with a refreshing sense of humour". To fim-critic-esque for me, but....still.)

And he has a point. Too much arguing over the non-issue. Abortion is legal because most people have enough sense not to attempt bodily control over another being.
But less to the point, why is adoption legal? I swear, if I have to retype any more full affidavits....
(Never work for a family lawer. Adoption cases.....heavy on the workload and crazy-expensive. Further reasons some can't AFFORD adoption versus abortion.)

legally yes, children are under the control of their parents who make all choices for them.

but a baby IS a person eh?
Person: (As defined by dictionary.com) A living Human Being.
Life (derived from living): The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.

Hmmm...we already established that feti (fetus plural) has human dna. They also reproduce cells in order to grow and metabolises pent up 'food' to grow. Human beings have human DNA. So if the DNA is the same then...oh my God, a fetus is a person. See the Logic? Person=Living Human Being, Human must have Human DNA. Fetus= Living sack of cells with human DNA= Living + Human DNA = Living Human Being= Person. What a thought.

Well guys this has actually been a pretty good discussion but I have to get out of here and do soemthing today. Damn NationStates general takes up so much of my time, I should block it from my comp. Anyways, have a good one y'all!
Same. I am out. Good night.

Ofcourse they don't look like a tiny baby. However, they ARE a tiny baby just in such an early development stage that they don't, at that point, LOOK like one.

Anyway, I'm off so i'll stop playing a pro-life guy because I actually agree with you. Feel free to reply to that though, I'm just trying to fuel conversation.
oh bogs im pleased that anyone notices my posts, they are mostly just overlooked entirely

thats why we call them zygotes, embryos, and fetuses, because we know they ARE different than babies. one quick test might be "when do you have a funeral for a miscarriage?" certainly not before it looks like a baby and might be called a "still birth".

Did I say that? No.

That is an absurd attempt at a strawman.

Kids are persons. They have brain functions, sapience, etc.

They also do not live within another person's body.
Babies think...they develop...they grow inside the womb. Though these kids may not live inside there mother with out her they could not survive...especially babies. I don't know of a month old baby being able to live with out being cared for.

The reason abortion is allowed is because of the Commie Jew Liberal conspiracy, duh.

I seriously hope you are kidding. conspiracy? c'mon.

By directly contradicting me like that, you shrunk my soul by 2 inches. Thanks.
and now youve ruined my fantasy
thanks right back at you.

Everyone remember, jesus was a liberal

-against war and violence
-against money hoarding (money love)
-HE WAS A JEW, PLZ
-was for tolerance and peace

Where in the bible does it say that homosexuality and abortion are sins?

Sure they can. Remember the Terry Sciavo case?

Don't advertise your ignorance of that case.

She had no brain to speak of. Persistent vegetative state.

And she was not allowed to die simply because he family wanted it.


However, i believe that an embryo IS a person, so prove me otherwise. You won't be able to, just like I won't be able to prove that it is a person.

Begging the question. Repeating it does not make it so or justify it.


Also, while I don't have the statistics, I think it's pretty safe to say that, 99% of zygotes that don't get aborted live to see their birth. If the paralized guy had a 99% chance of healing in 9 month, the relatives would still not be allowed to kill him.

You certainly don't have the statistics. When you do, try again.

And instead of the woman in her body, this example has the relatives. Although they don't have to carry a fetus in their bodies, they still bear tremendous economic costs, a lot more than a woman needs to upkeep the baby.

Economic costs != loss of control over own body and physical risks.

Everyone remember, jesus was a liberal

-against war and violence
-against money hoarding (money love)
-HE WAS A JEW, PLZ
-was for tolerance and peace
You do understand that liberal/conservative and the entire political spectrum shifts over time and location right? Example, A conservative in russia wants to go back to the soviet union while people who want communism in america are considered extremely liberal.

A very small risk. And yes, your life is more important than anything less than my life. IF you are starving so bad, you are about to die, yuo can gnaw on my leg.

Again, the question is not whether I have your permission.

It is whether you can be punished for homicide if you refuse.

You really think your position is still the only conceivable one?

Person: (As defined by dictionary.com) A living Human Being.
Life (derived from living): The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.

Hmmm...we already established that feti (fetus plural) has human dna. They also reproduce cells in order to grow and metabolises pent up 'food' to grow. Human beings have human DNA. So if the DNA is the same then...oh my God, a fetus is a person. See the Logic? Person=Living Human Being, Human must have Human DNA. Fetus= Living sack of cells with human DNA= Living + Human DNA = Living Human Being= Person. What a thought.
except that this living thing made of human tissue doesnt live on its own. its a potential person but its not there yet. just like an egg isnt a chicken a fetus isnt a person.

except that this living thing made of human tissue doesnt live on its own. its a potential person but its not there yet. just like an egg isnt a chicken a fetus isnt a person.
A baby cannot survive on its own. Just because it is born does not guarentee the ability to survive, if left unattended it will die.

except that this living thing made of human tissue doesnt live on its own. its a potential person but its not there yet. just like an egg isnt a chicken a fetus isnt a person.

*applauds*

This is enthralling, yall....you just dont' get much debate like this in the heart of conservative America. I wither.

Babies think...they develop...they grow inside the womb. Though these kids may not live inside there mother with out her they could not survive...especially babies. I don't know of a month old baby being able to live with out being cared for.
yes but a baby can be cared for by anyone. a fetus is dependant on its mother alone

Just to clear something up, many people attack liberals saying that they just want to kill babies.

This is totally rediculous. We are not pro-abortion. We are pro-choice. The Mother gets to chose. And with most people I've talked too, they only support letting mothers have abortions if the mother would take serious physical risks as a result of the birth. Thus, we are not senseless mass murderers. If you want those, go to the white house there are some murderers in there, and look up the number of American and Iraqi dead in Iraq. Apparently, life seems to stop after birth, because it's OK to kill over 100,000 Iraqis and 1,600 American troops for a bunch of oil.

In the United States, as you know, the Constitution says all men are CREATED equal, not born equal. Now, a lot of people disagree with the truth of this statement, I recognize that. But constitutionally at least, abortion appears to go against this.

Check my first post, sparky. :p

The Constitution plays a role as well.

I generally just skim your posts coz they're cluttered up with evidence and logic and stuff. Boooooring.

:)

In the United States, as you know, the Constitution says all men are CREATED equal, not born equal. Now, a lot of people disagree with the truth of this statement, I recognize that. But constitutionally at least, abortion appears to go against this.
Thats the decleration of independence buddy. Constitution deals with the more perfect union etc etc

So animals don't have a "person?" The root word in personality is person. I should say that all of our 50 cats (yes, we have a giant rogue herd of cats), have completely different personalities. Some are shy, outgoing, playful, ADD-like... do they have a "person."

Although we usually associate the "person" in people; we view them as knowing they are alive while animals do not have that quality.

Our cats come when called by name, snuggle at bed time, beg for petting, beg for food, and a warm, cuddly place to sleep. A person is an individual and our cats are individuals.

They need to survive like the rest of us.

The live on this planet with the rest of us and have the same basic needs as the rest of us. Most animals live in much harsher environments than we do. Then what do we do? Go out and shoot them and stick their heads on our walls and put their skins on our floors. We don't praise their accomplishments, *Bam!* "I killed the great lion, so therefore I am greater than the great lion!"


Oh yeah, I have a great site for everyone. A comical approach to children, an analogy of children as parasites.

http://disgruntledhousewife.com/pregnant/index.html

yes but a baby can be cared for by anyone. a fetus is dependant on its mother alone
What does it matter who can take care of them? Doesn't change the fact that they would die if left alone. So what is the major difference between conception and birth. Of all dates in my life i consider conception the most important, as should everyone.

In the United States, as you know, the Constitution says all men are CREATED equal, not born equal. Now, a lot of people disagree with the truth of this statement, I recognize that. But constitutionally at least, abortion appears to go against this.

How do abortions make unborn babies unequal? Last I heard, they meant we should not discrimate. Abortion is not discrimination against babies, born or unborn. 'Course, they did discriminate themselves, but that's a whole other issue, and not with babies.

wow. alot of messed up veiws in here... but that's okay. evryone has a right to their opinon, same as their freedom of choice. If I get raped and get pregnant, chances are, I'm aborting it. I can't say 100% that I would, because no matter what it's half my baby too. But I most likely would. Depends on the circumstances. If something happened during a pregnancy that endangered my life, however, I would absolutly abort the child. No questions about it, it gets aborted. I already have a beautiful daughter. Her father and I got drunk, forgot the rubber, and had the baby because it was our own fault we got preggers in the first place. If anything had been wrong, I wouldn't have carried her. It's that simple. Luck was with me and I had a wonderful child. I'd even have the more dangerous partial birth abortion if it meant that I'd be alive to raise my daughter.
However, If someone is so irresposible that they are a crack addict and get pregnant, or just plain know for a fact they have no buisness with a child... then let them abort it by all means. There are too many orphans in this world to add children that just simply weren't wanted to their numbers. Let the poor children who are victims of serious tragedy be the ones to get adopted by childless couples, and let the irresposible or health threatened women get abortions. It's a sad thing to have to kill your child before it can be born, and the women who choose to do it know it.... unless they are the above-mentioned crackheads... in that case fuck em'. They're too wasted to appreciate the miracle of life anyway, and the others mourn them until they are ready and able to raise their children.
I'd rather see a 13yr old girl get an abortion than ruin her life because she was to immature to become a mother.
women have been giving themselves abortions since they could figure out the correct mixture of herbs to take. It's a matter of choice and it's our choice to make. It doesn't make us bad people, or good people whatever we choose. You have your veiws I have mine. So drop the sanctimonious crap already, huh?

So animals don't have a "person?" The root word in personality is person. I should say that all of our 50 cats (yes, we have a giant rogue herd of cats), have completely different personalities. Some are shy, outgoing, playful, ADD-like... do they have a "person."

Although we usually associate the "person" in people; we view them as knowing they are alive while animals do not have that quality.

Our cats come when called by name, snuggle at bed time, beg for petting, beg for food, and a warm, cuddly place to sleep. A person is an individual and our cats are individuals.

They need to survive like the rest of us.

The live on this planet with the rest of us and have the same basic needs as the rest of us. Most animals live in much harsher environments than we do. Then what do we do? Go out and shoot them and stick their heads on our walls and put their skins on our floors. We don't praise their accomplishments, *Bam!* "I killed the great lion, so therefore I am greater than the great lion!"


Oh yeah, I have a great site for everyone. A comical approach to children, an analogy of children as parasites.

http://disgruntledhousewife.com/pregnant/index.html

What you just did is called anamorphanism. It other words, taking human characteristics and applying them to something not human. I was going by the definition of person that I found. If you have your own definition so be it but I will to continue to go by the more widely accepted one. Also, it was you who was arguing that genetics played a major role in who we were, so wouldn't you agree that conception is the most important moment in a person's life?

What does it matter who can take care of them? Doesn't change the fact that they would die if left alone. So what is the major difference between conception and birth. Of all dates in my life i consider conception the most important, as should everyone.
you know the date of your conception?

Look guys, when I can painlessly and cheaply transfer the embryo or fetus into your body, then you may have a say in whether or not I can have an abortion.
You do realize that people had them even if they weren't legal? My father took his girlfriend to Mexico for one. A lot of women died from unsafe illegal abortions. If a woman is willing to take that kind of risk to keep from bearing a child, surely the pregnancy is a little more than a minor inconvenience.

Or maybe some people would rather have a woman die for her sins than prevent a baby from being born.
And why are so many of our anti-choice folks are against comprehensive sex ed and easy access to birth control? Surely that would reduce abortion rates far more than any other measure.

you know the date of your conception?
Roughly 9 months before my birth. But what I do know for sure that it decided what race, sex, hair color, eye color, general height and weight, general abilities, over all health, predisposition to cancer and other various diseases and if you so believe my sexual orientation. So what is more important? The conception or the birth?

Roughly 9 months before my birth. But what I do know for sure that it decided what race, sex, hair color, eye color, general height and weight, general abilities, over all health, predisposition to cancer and other various diseases and if you so believe my sexual orientation. So what is more important? The conception or the birth?

Okay, I'm pretty sure it's safe to assume that your CONCEPTION determined, at the VERY least, your race. Most of those other things are a matter of dominant/recessive traits and can be accurately mapped over 2/3 of the time. Predisopsition to cancer/other diseases and overall health are based on family history which, once again, depends on the active players in your (say it with me) CONCEPTION.

wow. alot of messed up veiws in here... but that's okay. evryone has a right to their opinon, same as their freedom of choice. If I get raped and get pregnant, chances are, I'm aborting it. I can't say 100% that I would, because no matter what it's half my baby too. But I most likely would. Depends on the circumstances. If something happened during a pregnancy that endangered my life, however, I would absolutly abort the child. No questions about it, it gets aborted. I already have a beautiful daughter. Her father and I got drunk, forgot the rubber, and had the baby because it was our own fault we got preggers in the first place. If anything had been wrong, I wouldn't have carried her. It's that simple. Luck was with me and I had a wonderful child. I'd even have the more dangerous partial birth abortion if it meant that I'd be alive to raise my daughter.
However, If someone is so irresposible that they are a crack addict and get pregnant, or just plain know for a fact they have no buisness with a child... then let them abort it by all means. There are too many orphans in this world to add children that just simply weren't wanted to their numbers. Let the poor children who are victims of serious tragedy be the ones to get adopted by childless couples, and let the irresposible or health threatened women get abortions. It's a sad thing to have to kill your child before it can be born, and the women who choose to do it know it.... unless they are the above-mentioned crackheads... in that case fuck em'. They're too wasted to appreciate the miracle of life anyway, and the others mourn them until they are ready and able to raise their children.
I'd rather see a 13yr old girl get an abortion than ruin her life because she was to immature to become a mother.
women have been giving themselves abortions since they could figure out the correct mixture of herbs to take. It's a matter of choice and it's our choice to make. It doesn't make us bad people, or good people whatever we choose. You have your veiws I have mine. So drop the sanctimonious crap already, huh?

the more important thing to me is that if you had to have an abortion for whatever reason that you dont have to spend weeks convincing someone that your reasons are "good enough". that you dont have to jump through hoops to get it done. that you dont have to repeat the story of your rape over and over again. its your private business (at least in the 1st trimester) and should remain so. we dont need to make a private tragedy any worse than it already is

Abortion is legal to protect women lives. Abortion is legal so people can make a decision based on what they believe in. Abortion is legal so victims of rape or incest can terminate any unwanted harm that has come to them. Abortion is legal due to a 7-2 ruling in Roe V. Wade. Abortion will still be legal as long as one of the five majority justices of the supreme court isn't killed by a "pro-life" martyr.

Keep church and state seperate, The laws of this country shouldn't be based on a groups religious views, not everyone believes in those beliefs. Just like abortion, religion should be a private affair between you and your god/church/study group/etc. I'm not anti-religious, just anti-enforcing beliefs upon a group who may not agree with you and are left with no choice in the matter. Pro-life is No choice, No choice is Slavery.

What you just did is called anamorphanism. It other words, taking human characteristics and applying them to something not human. I was going by the definition of person that I found. If you have your own definition so be it but I will to continue to go by the more widely accepted one. Also, it was you who was arguing that genetics played a major role in who we were, so wouldn't you agree that conception is the most important moment in a person's life?


Conception is the most important part of anything's life...

As with animals, WE ARE ANIMALS; I already gave our taxonomy. Animals develop just as well as we do, but we have the advantage of have a large Cerebrum. Otherwise, our brains look a lot like those of other animals'.

Simonist']Okay, I'm pretty sure it's safe to assume that your CONCEPTION determined, at the VERY least, your race. Most of those other things are a matter of dominant/recessive traits and can be accurately mapped over 2/3 of the time. Predisopsition to cancer/other diseases and overall health are based on family history which, once again, depends on the active players in your (say it with me) CONCEPTION.
All of those depend on your DNA (good job at throwing in the parents there) which comes together at conception. What you said is very redundant and I cannot even tell if you are defending or attacking my position.

Seeing that pregnancy can only come through sex.

Actually, pregnancy can come from lesser sexual activities too. All that needs to happen is for the sperm (which is also present in preseminal fluid) to come into contact with the egg. If a couple is touching each other and one of them touches first the guy and then the girl, and it's the right time of the month...

And no, I'm not gonna actually comment on abortion. It's a dumb debate that never goes anywhere.

All of those depend on your DNA (good job at throwing in the parents there) which comes together at conception. What you said is very redundant and I cannot even tell if you are defending or attacking my position.

I'm not attacking your position. I'm reiterating, TO YOUR CREDIT, that you're right. Admittedly, I have not clue where you got that sexual orientation thing, but still...and in terms of the DNA crap, I still say it's nonsense. DNA doesn't determine true humanity.

Roughly 9 months before my birth. But what I do know for sure that it decided what race, sex, hair color, eye color, general height and weight, general abilities, over all health, predisposition to cancer and other various diseases and if you so believe my sexual orientation. So what is more important? The conception or the birth?
so you didnt quiz your parents about their sex lives. phew.

i never thought about it. conception is important but its just so much potential. lots of conceptions happen that never implant. lots of embryos die without being even noticed by the mother. lots of miscarriages happen. near full term babies die before birth. that milestone of actually surviving to see the light of day is pretty important to me.

Conception is the most important part of anything's life...

As with animals, WE ARE ANIMALS; I already gave our taxonomy. Animals develop just as well as we do, but we have the advantage of have a large Cerebrum. Otherwise, our brains look a lot like those of other animals'.
Your right, we are nothing more then advanced animals. We are the dominant species. To which our responsibilities depends on the idea of the individual but last I check, my cats don't stay up late debating the morality about the killing of the latest mouse.

wow. alot of messed up veiws in here... but that's okay. evryone has a right to their opinon, same as their freedom of choice. If I get raped and get pregnant, chances are, I'm aborting it. I can't say 100% that I would, because no matter what it's half my baby too. But I most likely would. Depends on the circumstances. If something happened during a pregnancy that endangered my life, however, I would absolutly abort the child. No questions about it, it gets aborted. I already have a beautiful daughter. Her father and I got drunk, forgot the rubber, and had the baby because it was our own fault we got preggers in the first place. If anything had been wrong, I wouldn't have carried her. It's that simple. Luck was with me and I had a wonderful child. I'd even have the more dangerous partial birth abortion if it meant that I'd be alive to raise my daughter.
However, If someone is so irresposible that they are a crack addict and get pregnant, or just plain know for a fact they have no buisness with a child... then let them abort it by all means. There are too many orphans in this world to add children that just simply weren't wanted to their numbers. Let the poor children who are victims of serious tragedy be the ones to get adopted by childless couples, and let the irresposible or health threatened women get abortions. It's a sad thing to have to kill your child before it can be born, and the women who choose to do it know it.... unless they are the above-mentioned crackheads... in that case fuck em'. They're too wasted to appreciate the miracle of life anyway, and the others mourn them until they are ready and able to raise their children.
I'd rather see a 13yr old girl get an abortion than ruin her life because she was to immature to become a mother.
women have been giving themselves abortions since they could figure out the correct mixture of herbs to take. It's a matter of choice and it's our choice to make. It doesn't make us bad people, or good people whatever we choose. You have your veiws I have mine. So drop the sanctimonious crap already, huh?

An example of this is my boyfriends cousin, She's 14 and pregnant. Her baby was diagnosed as having downs syndrome. Her parents are strict catholics who do not believe in abortion, But they do believe in stopping her life with a 8th grade education so she can make about 14,000 a year to help support a child who's expenses are more than triple of a normal baby.

Also having it illegal wouldn't change a damn thing.

And well, I'm pretty sure that the starter of this thread is male... pfffff...

Female orgasm induces pregnancy (male orgasm especially ;)).

Anyway, Bed time. Tomorrow, I will express one of the characteristics that makes me "human," capacity of language. Actually proven than Gorrilas can speak through sign language, so I'm wrong; we just have advanced vocal systems that allow us to express it. I love field trips! Tomorrow, I'm going to be speakin' Spanish all friggin' day... that's right.

Don't take advantage of what you have, but use it wisely!

so you didnt quiz your parents about their sex lives. phew.

i never thought about it. conception is important but its just so much potential. lots of conceptions happen that never implant. lots of embryos die without being even noticed by the mother. lots of miscarriages happen. near full term babies die before birth. that milestone of actually surviving to see the light of day is pretty important to me.
Potential just grows and wanes through out life. Surviving up until birth is an achievement but it is not the beginning. Conception is where it begins. Birth is as important as when reaching sexual and mental maturity. You have far more potential to do various things through out your life at birth then when your 21. Just because theres more time to do it. Life is nothing but a process. Starting at conception and ending at death. With this I am leaving because well it's about 1 am where i am and I got to get up at 6.

Your right, we are nothing more then advanced animals. We are the dominant species. To which our responsibilities depends on the idea of the individual but last I check, my cats don't stay up late debating the morality about the killing of the latest mouse.

I know, cat's aren't stupid like us. They just do what they know is right!

Potential just grows and wanes through out life. Surviving up until birth is an achievement but it is not the beginning. Conception is where it begins. Birth is as important as when reaching sexual and mental maturity. You have far more potential to do various things through out your life at birth then when your 21. Just because theres more time to do it. Life is nothing but a process. Starting at conception and ending at death. With this I am leaving because well it's about 1 am where i am and I got to get up at 6.
me too
thanks for the discussion

The most important point for making abortion legal is that its a morale issue. If the government says its illegal then the government is telling you what to do. Same thing with gays.

Your right, we are nothing more then advanced animals. We are the dominant species. To which our responsibilities depends on the idea of the individual but last I check, my cats don't stay up late debating the morality about the killing of the latest mouse.

I shudder to think of what that debate would sound like if they could have it. Given that they're biologically programed to torture them rather than kill them quickly.

Female orgasm induces pregnancy (male orgasm especially ;)).

Anyway, Bed time. Tomorrow, I will express one of the characteristics that makes me "human," capacity of language. Actually proven than Gorrilas can speak through sign language, so I'm wrong; we just have advanced vocal systems that allow us to express it. I love field trips! Tomorrow, I'm going to be speakin' Spanish all friggin' day... that's right.

Don't take advantage of what you have, but use it wisely!

I saw something about instinctive morality-like behavior patterns in mammals that focused mostly on the simple equivilants that mammals have to our behaviors.

A chimp researcher said that she heard the chimps being fed and said to herself "sound like they're having grapes," and was then surprised realize that she recognized that from the sounds they were making.

To us the chimps were just shouting excitedly because they were getting food, but they were actually saying "grapes, grapes."

A chimp researcher said that she heard the chimps being fed and said to herself "sound like they're having grapes," and was then surprised realize that she recognized that from the sounds they were making.

To us the chimps were just shouting excitedly because they were getting food, but they were actually saying "grapes, grapes."

Wonder what the chimps at our zoo are saying when they're contemplating eating the mass of half-digested grass they recently regurgitated....

The most important point for making abortion legal is that its a morale issue. If the government says its illegal then the government is telling you what to do. Same thing with gays.
Are you serious? Who is this? George Bush? Is that you George?

The most important point for making abortion legal is that its a morale issue. If the government says its illegal then the government is telling you what to do. Same thing with gays.
I think what frightens me most is that this turned into a morale issue, rather than legal or moral. So....now it's what makes us happy?

Actually, that could be a turn for the better.

I must have picked it up from Cat-Tribe, he knows all the Australian lingo.

:p

Perhaps the problem is that you think you DO see a difference when really it might just be the size and outward appearence that is different but what they actually are is not.

Um.

There are rather fundamental differences other than appearance between a zygote and born children.

Brain. Brain function. Nervous system. Etc.

These things develop along the way. They are not present and functioning earlier on.

An unborn child does not approach anything close to consciouness until late in the pregnancy (when abortion is generally illegal).

Abortion should only be leagle if the mother is in danger.

Abortion should only be leagle if the mother is in danger.
Now, people, this is what i call a well prepared argument. It discusses the matter at length, highlightens the background, explains the current situation based on facts and balances it with counterarguments that are dismissed point for point.
Well done, young padawan!

You have a right to an opinion, and to tell others about it, but that right comes with a responsibility. That responsibility is to make sense and get your argument straight.

This topic is called "Why is abortion legal?" ...your arguments are just telling us why abortion is bad. The point about abortion being legal, is that if you don't want to have one - you don't have to. Whereas if it's illegal, everyone loses their freedom of choice. That includes the people who don't want an abortion anyway - because now, they aren't not having an abortion because of thier principles, their nto having an abortion because they can't.

Someone who feels having a child is "inconvenient" wouldn't make a very good mother anyway - the adoption system is overcrowded and it's hard to tell which would be worse for the child. Still, in a case like this, I don't approve of abortion, because if it's alive the kid at least has a *chance*.

But what if they have a horrible illness which means they won't survive long anyway? What if it's a danger to the mothers life to have the child? Why not have the *option* of only losing one life, inistead of two? If it was illegal for all non-medical purposes, there would be so many people who slip through the cracks, because it takes so long to get the doctor to sign off on it, or just because the law is unclear on that type of problem. And what about rape? Don't rape victims have some rights, after all that psychological trauma?

Also, you don't sound like one of the religious-grounds people, but in case you are, that argument is extremely hypocritical - these people won't let a girl terminate a pregnancy, and then she has the baby out of wedlock and they all ostracise her to protect their image.

Here's the ideal situation: Abortion remains legal, but anyone who doesn't have a doctors certificate gets bombarded with pamphlets about adoption and told sternly to consider all options, because this one is permanent.


:( I got ignored...

:( I got ignored...
So sorry darling. I at least appreciate how well-thought your argument is, especially the intended solution, whether or not I'd ultimately be pissed at you (indirectly) for all the pamphlets I'd be getting.
And these pamphlets.....are we talking like, upon conception? Upon the first consultation (in which case most are sent away to consider it for several days anyway)? Upon.......puberty?!
I say, there must be a well-defined timeline of pamphlet bombardment.

I agree with what Resquide said at the beginning of the post. Abortion should be legal so that the people actually have the choice. If they think abortion is wrong then they don't have to use this right of theirs but to take the right away in the first place is sort of oppression. It would like I'm telling you to get rid of your computer becaue the internet is bad for you. I'm not the one to make that decision for you, that's your choice only.
Besides the fact that i support abortion anyway (i don't think of a fetus as a human being yet but we already said that nobody will be able to convince the other side) but for example what if a woman gets raped and becomes pregnant afterwards? Imagine, somebody violates you in the most cruel and perverted way possible and then you have to get his child because your government tells you abortion is wrong. This just can't be allowed I think.

At what point does a baby recieve it's license to be alive?

When the mother says so.

When the mother says so.
Props out the wazoo for that one, Keruvalia

Female orgasm induces pregnancy (male orgasm especially ;)).

Anyway, Bed time. Tomorrow, I will express one of the characteristics that makes me "human," capacity of language. Actually proven than Gorrilas can speak through sign language, so I'm wrong; we just have advanced vocal systems that allow us to express it. I love field trips! Tomorrow, I'm going to be speakin' Spanish all friggin' day... that's right.

Don't take advantage of what you have, but use it wisely!

Gorillas have about a 50% accuracy rate and cannot form sentences.
Basically, they are stupider than a two year old human.

Now, Grey Parrots are cool. Much more accurate use of language and they can also count.

Abortion should be legal because people will hurt themselves doing it illegally. Which is worse, the death of a fetus, or the death of both the mother and the fetus?