NationStates Jolt Archive

The question I would like to ask Christians on this forum is rather simple: the Bible or the Constitution.

In many cases this will be the United States constitution, but if you are not an American (like me) your local constitution or lawbook applies.

I am asking becaue I had a rather interesting discussion on this topic, especially here in the Netherlands where the debate rages about muslim extremism, integration, immigration and the like. One Right-Liberal MP went to an Islamic primary school and asked the little children whether they held the Koran or the Dutch Constitution higher. I was wondering in how far this would apply to Christians (my hypothesis/bigotry being that especially US Christians would tend to hold the Bible in higher regard.)

I am especially interested in hearing the argumentation behind your vote.

Any time that the Bible DIRECTLY contradicts the constitution I would hold the bible higher. Of course, this is not likely since the constitution is more of a limit of powers than anything else. Nothing in the constitution right now contradicts the Bible.

Render unto caesar what is due to caesar...

Render unto caesar what is due to caesar...

Of course, if that was directed to me I never meant that the contitution was not important, just underneath the Bible.

One Right-Liberal MP went to an Islamic primary school and asked the little children whether they held the Koran or the Dutch Constitution higher. I was wondering in how far this would apply to Christians (my hypothesis/bigotry being that especially US Christians would tend to hold the Bible in higher regard.)

Yes, I have read about this topic in the Netherlands, the development with the Muslim extremists ist very interesting. The difference to Christians: The Constitutions in Europe in general are at least partly based on the bible, the Koran stands for a totally different culture.

I hold higher the bible - the constitution is made by man, the bible is the word of God. You should obey God more then the man.

I'm a Roman Catholic, but as far as I can see in a Democracy the United States Consitution trumps the Bible in the area of civil law. The United States is not a theocracy, its a Republic which should base its laws on what is legal and what is best for ALLL Americans, not what the Bible says. Thats also why we have a Separation of Church and State in this country ( For Now ). Religion and Government should be separate to ensure that all Americans are treated equally and justly before the law, not the Bible, Tora, or Koran. Past history shows us what happens when you mix Religion and politics. You get things like the 30 years war and other genicides. If you want a theocracy, move to Tehran. You can have all the God there you want.

Well, those who know me most surely know that I am a rather convinced Russian Orthodox and everything, but... separation of Church and State all the way. Which means that, in a modern democracy, the rule of law must be above the rule of religious writings.

So, Constitution must be valued higher.

*is not a Christian, but wishes to comment*
The problem I see with this is that it seems to be a sort of loaded question.
I am fairly sure that as a Christian, one is supposed to put God first and such(or at least that's what I was taught in Sunday school). The thing is, holding the Bible in higher regard does not directly contradict anything in the Constitution. So I would think one holding the Bible in highest regard, and following it, would be doing something quite similar to if they held the Constitution higher.


It might make more sense as a more specific question, like asking it specifically pertaining to how a country should be ruled, or something similar.

Err, did any of that make sense? I hope so.

The bible, written by the Creator as a guideline on how to have a relationship with Him. The constitution, written by men to provide freedom. One freedom being the right to value the bible as a higher authority than the constitution.

It's a loaded question. To be honest. There is no direct answer that is easy.

In matters of public law, the Constitution. In matters of personal religion, the Bible.

I see the Bible as a "greater authority" in the stance that it directs my personal life in all matters. Though not to say the Bible should be used to supercede the Constitution. They are, in some ways, seperate authorities.

For example, while I consider the Bible supreme in my personal morality and religion. I see homosexuality as a sin. However, I would not want to see the Constitution trample on homosexuals rights. It's not the duty of the general government, or of the Constitution, to enforce religious discipline and practice (this is where I remove myself from the more theonomic christians).

Church government can enforce discipline on its members. General Government is only there to protect the interests of individuals between one another.

As christians, it is our duty to preach and teach towards the unconverted. Discipline regarding the faith is only for those in the Church, not out of it. I find many "christians" who cannot get this concept down. They place themsevles as God, and make judgments "in His name". All without being granted the authority by God to do so. I question their faith, and I question their motives, and I question their salvation, and of even being "christians" in the first place.

There is no situation in which the Bible contradicts the rule of Law, therefore your question is irrelevant. Many people erroneuosly claim biblical authority to carry out unlawful acts, but they select passages out of context.

As for the bible being the word of God, it is not for two reasons

1 It is man's translation and interpretation of religious teachings

2 God does not exist.

Way to drop a bomb on the thread, there, buddy.

I am asking becaue I had a rather interesting discussion on this topic, especially here in the Netherlands where the debate rages about muslim extremism, integration, immigration and the like. One Right-Liberal MP went to an Islamic primary school and asked the little children whether they held the Koran or the Dutch Constitution higher. I was wondering in how far this would apply to Christians (my hypothesis/bigotry being that especially US Christians would tend to hold the Bible in higher regard.)

I am especially interested in hearing the argumentation behind your vote.
This is a terrible question. Ideally one should probably hold the Bible/Koran higher in your personal/spiritual life while the Constitution should be held higher in public life. Your question just invites people to integrate religion and government.

Way to drop a bomb on the thread, there, buddy.

Sorry, were we not allowed to be rational on this thread?

If we're going to base our lives on stories I would prefer to use the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy

*ahem* In the old testeament the bible tells you that you MUST follow the laws of your nation.. Therefore, the Bible upholds the Constitution, leaving Christians the right to chose both!

*ahem* In the old testeament the bible tells you that you MUST follow the laws of your nation.. Therefore, the Bible upholds the Constitution, leaving Christians the right to chose both!
It actually says that? That's just....silly.

Keep in mind that our Constitution is not all-encompassing. It can be added to or deleted from. Also, as with the British non-constitution, several factors are unwritten (such as George W. Bush being granted emergency powers).

Of course, the unwritten part can also be said about Christianity and the Bible. That's why I place Church authority foremost, what, being Catholic and all.

Bible...no doubt in my mind...

Render unto caesar what is due to caesar...

You forgot the rest of that statement, "and to God the things that are God's".

It says in the Bible to 'fear God, honour the king' - eg to respect the law of whatever country you live in. So you should respect the Constitution, and all the freedoms it gives, but the Bible is the word of God and comes above this - it's just hte two aren't incompatible.

Cry havoc! And let slip the dogs of war!

Um . . . Carry on with your debate.

The Bible is more important but it simply cannot be applied to civil law.

The Bible is a moral guide for life, the constitution lays out how the government works.

This is a terrible question. Ideally one should probably hold the Bible/Koran higher in your personal/spiritual life while the Constitution should be held higher in public life. Your question just invites people to integrate religion and government.

Sorry for replying a bit late :)

I phrased the question ambigiously exactly because the question is ambigious. The idea of different 'spheres' (i.e. your personal sphere and a political and a spiritual sphere) is very popular but the people I wrote about clearly do not think of it as seperate. If you look at some of the posts you see it too: superiority is accorded to God by such Christians which then overrides the constitution. Therefore, I don't think claiming a "personal sphere" and a "spiritual sphere" as seperate works. Is voting spiritual or personal? How about making life choices yourself? Or choosing to obey a law or not, for example.

Saying that Bible and Constitution never conflict is a false rhetorical device: they can, and occassionally they will. Especially where constitutions lay out values which are often secular. (Freedom, loyalty and obedience to the State and such) where values can conflict.

In America right now with the religious nut (Bush) in the White House the Neo-Con Christians are running rampant through our great government and are trying to shove their religo-cultural beliefs down everyone elses throat.

As a liberal Buddhist I fear dark times ahead as the Neo-Cons try to turn the clock on womens rights, gay rights, religious rights, and the rights of everyone to practice democracy as the basis of law becomes the contradictory and flawed text (the Bible) rather than the Constitution.

The religious nuts have become so bold as to try and change the defenition of SCIENCE for God's Sake (pun intended) in several states.

I can't wait until '08 when I can vote Hilary Clinton into office as our first Madame President and keep the Bushes from building a Dynasty with Jeb Bush (which we ALL know he is going to run).

Until then we have to fight every single inch of the way to protect America from Christian religious lunacy.

Well, I am not a christian, or of any religous order, but I have to say the constitution is more important.

Acrimoni: "Any time that the Bible DIRECTLY contradicts the constitution I would hold the bible higher. Of course, this is not likely since the constitution is more of a limit of powers than anything else. Nothing in the constitution right now contradicts the Bible."

Well thats because the Constitution is based off of the bible.

Passivocalia: "Keep in mind that our Constitution is not all-encompassing. It can be added to or deleted from. Also, as with the British non-constitution, several factors are unwritten (such as George W. Bush being granted emergency powers). Of course, the unwritten part can also be said about Christianity and the Bible. That's why I place Church authority foremost, what, being Catholic and all. "

True, but also the Bible has and can be edited, back when the Christian religon was starting the Church went through the books of the bible to make sure it all fit, but they removed several books, like the Book of Mary (as back then they wouldnt except such things as a woman writing scripture). And also if you go to a store that sells books, you will find several versions of 'The' Bible.

I see a recurring argument that the Constitution is based off of the Bible. I find these remarks a bit... puzzling. I would very much like to hear some arguments supporting that statement, if they exist.