NationStates Jolt Archive

From BBC News: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4531669.stm

The monument is a 2,000-sq-m site (21,520 sq ft) in the city centre covered with some 2,700 granite blocks.

It has been hugely controversial and construction has been delayed for years by disputes over the location, the design and the concept.

Critics say it is too big, too bombastic and too abstract. It has also been criticised for only commemorating Jewish Holocaust victims.

The new memorial covers the size of two football pitches in the centre of Berlin, right next to the Brandenburg Gate and the Reichstag.

From now on, no visitor will be able to overlook the city's Nazi past.

The project has been dogged by controversy ever since it was first conceived in the early 1990s.

Former German Chancellor Helmut Kohl vetoed the original design, and there were delays when a former Nazi bunker was found on the site and again when it emerged that one of the companies involved had once supplied gas to the death camps.

But on the eve of the opening, one of the organisers told the BBC that the biggest delay was caused by the concept - that this was a monument to national shame.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41127000/jpg/_41127953_site_afp203body.jpg

What do you think?

The Location is really good, nearly right above the old Führerbunker. The sad thing is that all parties involved wasted a perfect opportunity to demonstrate cooperation and a stupid catfight about details broke out.

You can't really say you "like" it though. It is not something to like, it is something to make you remember and tell you that it should never happen again.

My thoughts are probably summed up quite well in a recent article by Caroline Glick:

Europe has avoided serious self-examination and instead has turned the Holocaust into a fetish. Holocaust memorials spring up like mushrooms after the rainfall throughout the continent. But what do they signify? A sop to Holocaust-obsessed Jews, they are used to teach Europeans that nationalism is bad. Speaking in 2000, German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer said, "The core of the concept of Europe after 1945 was and still is a rejection of the European balance of power principle and the hegemonic ambitions of individual states."

But this has nothing to do with the causes for the liquidation of European Jewry. It was not Polish or American nationalism that led to the Holocaust. The balance of power between Britain and France had nothing to do with the Holocaust. It was genocidal anti-Semitism, nurtured by 2000 years of Christian mythology, embraced by a post-Nietzschean Germany, and accepted relatively enthusiastically by the overwhelming majority of the rest of Europe that caused the Holocaust.

While it is important that a monument commemorating the Jewish victims of the Holocaust not be tacky, I still think it is a good thing that they are building this monument no matter what. This is an event that must be remembered, particularly in the country where it occured. As for only listing the Jewish victims, one cannot forget that most of the victims were Jews and Jews were the Nazi's main target. I wouldn't suggest that Gypsies, POWs, communists, homosexuals, etc. not have their suffering recognized in this or any memorial as they obviously were dealt with harshly at the hands of the Nazis, but the force of most of Hitler's propaganda dealt with destroying the Jews more than with anyone else, and again, Jews received the brunt of most of the persecution as they were the center of it. The most important thing to get out of this monument, however, is that man's capacity for evil, even in the most civilized of countries, can be overwhelming and that no matter what, civilized people can never again stand by and allow such evil to happen ANYWHERE.

Aleks

The Location is really good, nearly right above the old Führerbunker. The sad thing is that all parties involved wasted a perfect opportunity to demonstrate cooperation and a stupid catfight about details broke out.

You can't really say you "like" it though. It is not something to like, it is something to make you remember and tell you that it should never happen again.

That's probably true of any such project. :(
For example: I still remember the controversy about the Viet Nam Memorial in DC when the winning award was chosen, yet now it's a beloved-nigh-sacred place to it's visitors. Over the years, I've seen more than one guy who would probably clean my clock in a bar fight break down and sob uncontrollably there.

True. This isn't something to be adored like the Eiffel Tower or the Taj Mahal.

<snip>
The most important thing to get out of this monument, however, is that man's capacity for evil, even in the most civilized of countries, can be overwhelming and that no matter what, civilized people can never again stand by and allow such evil to happen ANYWHERE.

Aleks

...and indeed has happened in Darfur/Sudan, Jugoslavia and Myanmar (the Karen peoples) and Rwanda.

...and indeed has happened in Darfur/Sudan, Jugoslavia and Myanmar (the Karen peoples) and Rwanda.

... or the Armenians in Turkey. (talking about historical revisionism...)

... or the Armenians in Turkey. (talking about historical revisionism...)

Forgot about that one! :eek:
(Though I think that happened before WW2, no?)

Yes, I bumped my own thread.

It's an ugly memorial and we don't need yet another Holocaust memorial. I'm tired of the Holocaust cult in Germany and would like to see our politicians mvoe on. All this Holocaust orgasmic ecstasy is caused by our politicians who bow and suck up to pretty much everyone who wants something out of Germany - be it Jews who want money and lots of memorials to make themselves special, immigrants who never move a finger and still get welfare, the European Union which gets paid most of it's money from Germany, etc. I'm tired of this whole system and our corrupt, fat, idiotic politicians who use opportunities like the opening of this crap excuse of a memorial to pat themselves on the back and present overblown speeches to the bored German people. Rest assured, many, many Germans are tired of the yearly WW2-Holocaust spectacle. It is now over 60 years ago and yet we do not have a week without at least one WW2 documentary boring the TV viewer to death. We are not responsible for what happened, but we constantly face the blame for it - even if it's indirect. There are many people here who would like this to be rest at peace and taught in the history books, but not this cruel exercise in self-flagellation each year for a few weeks (April/May). http://perso.wanadoo.fr/atil/forum/fouet3.gif

The only people killed were enemies of the state, similar to what is going on in many countries to this day.

20 million euros is way too much for a memorial that no-one will care to visit.
And to single out the Jews for rememberance is a strange concept anyways. There have been roughly 60 million dying in WW2, so why are 6 million dead Jews worth more prominence than e.g. 25 million dead Russians?
And why does the urge to remember grow ever stronger now that all the survivers die off? I can't help to think that some Jewish organizations are using memorials or events to reiterate their accusal not only of those who actually commited crimes during the Nazi rule but of all who ever dare to not know about or even criticize Jews or Judaism today. It seems, no apologies will ever be enough, not even in 100 years. But why should WW2 or the Shoah in particular be remembered more than the atrocities of the 30 Years War, the Crusades, or the Conquest of Cannan? (And has anyone ever apologized for those wars?) There has come a strange tone into all of it.

It´s okay, though I´d really love to see it included the other victims of Nazi-Germany. Like homosexuals, mentally/ physically disabled, political opponents of the Hitler regime (communists, social democrats, etc.), gypsies and all those others who got totally forgotten about.

20 million euros is way too much for a memorial that no-one will care to visit.
And to single out the Jews for rememberance is a strange concept anyways. There have been roughly 60 million dying in WW2, so why are 6 million dead Jews worth more prominence than e.g. 25 million dead Russians?
And why does the urge to remember grow ever stronger now that all the survivers die off? I can't help to think that some Jewish organizations are using memorials or events to reiterate their accusal not only of those who actually commited crimes during the Nazi rule but of all who ever dare to not know about or even criticize Jews or Judaism today. It seems, no apologies will ever be enough, not even in 100 years. But why should WW2 or the Shoah in particular be remembered more than the atrocities of the 30 Years War, the Crusades, or the Conquest of Cannan? (And has anyone ever apologized for those wars?) There has come a strange tone into all of it.

The Russians were at least fighting for and in their own country. The Jews were just rounded up from within Germany & occupied countries. They didn't stand a chance.

20 million euros is way too much for a memorial that no-one will care to visit.
And to single out the Jews for rememberance is a strange concept anyways. There have been roughly 60 million dying in WW2, so why are 6 million dead Jews worth more prominence than e.g. 25 million dead Russians?
And why does the urge to remember grow ever stronger now that all the survivers die off? I can't help to think that some Jewish organizations are using memorials or events to reiterate their accusal not only of those who actually commited crimes during the Nazi rule but of all who ever dare to not know about or even criticize Jews or Judaism today. It seems, no apologies will ever be enough, not even in 100 years. But why should WW2 or the Shoah in particular be remembered more than the atrocities of the 30 Years War, the Crusades, or the Conquest of Cannan? (And has anyone ever apologized for those wars?) There has come a strange tone into all of it.

Who are you to say no one will care to visit? Do you purport to represent all of the citizens of Germany or other countries who may very well be interested in seeing it?

Why are 6 million dead Jews "worth more prominence"? Because they didn't do anything wrong. They weren't soldiers of an opposing army (though even soldiers do not deserve the type of treatment that the Jews received). They were innocent civilians who were systematically singled out for persecution, torture, and mass murder. The Nazis' targeted plan for dehumanization of the Jews is unprecendented in history. Or perhaps you can provide an example of another group of historically persecuted people who were taken from their homes and put in death camps and burned alive. I'll wait, but I won't hold my breath.

Why is the urge to commit the Holocaust to memory growing stronger as older survivors die off? Because it is one thing to read the documentation of the events or read about it in a history book, but it is another to remember that there are people who lived through it who can tell about their personal experiences during this event. They are the few remaining people with a firsthand recollection of this event, and as soon as they are gone, it is up to the next generation to continue to remind people of the horrors that were perpetrated in Nazi Germany.

I have never heard of a Jewish organization (or any organization, for that matter) seeking to use memorials or other events to unnecessarily blame people for the Holocaust. In fact, I have never even met a Jew who hates Germany or Germans of today because of what happened during the Holocaust. I am not saying they do not exist (like you are apparently able to in regards to your claim that no one will visit this newly erected monument), I am saying that Jews that I know are more interested in reminding people of the horrors that occurred in modern day times in a country that was considered highly cultured and civilized. Also, would you maybe be able to provide to me an example of Jewish organizations trying to reiterate their accusal of people who have no legal or moral culpability regarding the murder of Jews? Or how about an example where Jews go out of their way not to educate people about Jews and Judaism, but just to make them feel guilty about their ignorance of the topic? Please, tell me if you can.

You are right about one thing. No apology will ever be enough, as no apology can bring back a single Holocaust victim. What IS enough, however, is showing that one is sorry by recognizing and acknowledging past evils and acting to show this sorrow and avoid this path in the future. You know, by doing things like building memorials and educating people about the past.

And finally, the reason that the Shoah (Hebrew for "Holocaust) should be remembered differently from other wars is because this is a historically unique event. Innocent civilians die in every war and will always die in every war, and it is never okay when that happens. But as I said before, the Holocaust was a systematic plan to target and kill a specific group of people, Jews (though as we have discussed, others were targeted as well, but Jews were the primary targets), and eliminate them from the face of the earth. Other massacres that have occurred in history have been of the civilian population of the countries of their opponents, but the Final Solution was aimed not only at the Jewish population of other countries, but of the population in their own as well. This did not happen in ancient Canaan or under the command of a pope hundreds and hundreds of years ago. This occurred in a country that was considered to be one of the most modern and culturally advanced societies in the world. This happened in a time where science and knowledge, not superstition and ignorance, were supposed to be the hallmarks of Western civilization. The Shoah is different for this very reason, because it stands out from the achievements that were supposed to represent all that mankind had been working for all along: a better life for all people. Instead, it showed that old hatreds die hard, and that they will remain alive and well should anyone attempt to ignore or trivialize them.

Aleks

The only people killed were enemies of the state, similar to what is going on in many countries to this day.

Um... right. Care to name them? And would you really want to be living there?

I don't think so.

And since I know you're going to say the United States: the INDIVIDUAL that is put to death (in the states with the death penalty) has had at least one trial and several YEARS on death row to go through the appeals process. Not quite like having every (say) Libra in the US shipped to camps in Manitoba to be worked to death and turned into lampshades while the state takes their assets. :rolleyes: