NationStates Jolt Archive

At what point is someone beyond redemption in your mind? (Morally, religiously, or otherwise.) What decisions/actions are unforgivable? What would it take for you to turn your back on a family member?

The second they vote Republican.

Death is about it.

When they're dead.

Though voting republican comes close. :D

When the shit hits the metaphorical fan.
Then death.

I guess when the person convinces itself to be beyond redemption.

When they have non-progressive thought.

when youre dead or incapable of rational thought.

that doesnt mean i wont cut off contact with an unrepentant child murderer, just that i hold the hope that he would some day reform

When they're dead.

Though voting republican comes close. :D
Nah, they can still vote democratic when they're dead.

From a Christian's perspective, the earlier of 1) when a person's heart becomes permanently hardened to the beckoning of the Holy Spirit; or 2) death.

From a Christian's perspective, the earlier of 1) when a person's heart becomes permanently hardened to the beckoning of the Holy Spirit; or 2) death.
I thought that it wasn't possible for someones heart of become permenently hardened to the beckoning of the Hily Ghost? So there are people who can't be saved because their hearts are so hardened? God can't overcome this? Do you believe in a limited God? Are you a nostic Christian?

As far as I'm aware, 1) doesn't apply with reguards to mainstream Christian theology, and 2) is also open.

I thought that it wasn't possible for someones heart of become permenently hardened to the beckoning of the Hily Ghost? So there are people who can't be saved because their hearts are so hardened? God can't overcome this? Do you believe in a limited God? Are you a nostic Christian?

As far as I'm aware, 1) doesn't apply with reguards to mainstream Christian theology, and 2) is also open.
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is suposedly the only unforgivable sin. That means that Hitler will eventually make it into heaven, while I will remain in Hell for all eternity.

For me, someone goes beyond redemption if they commit rape or genocide.

At what point is someone beyond redemption in your mind? (Morally, religiously, or otherwise.) What decisions/actions are unforgivable? What would it take for you to turn your back on a family member?For me redemption is solely in the hands of the transgressor. No one is beyond it if they choose not to be. Attonement is something that everyone should have a right to, it's not my place to deny it to someone if they wish it. Whether they are capable of it is strictly on them though....

never

Believeing everything to be relative (and therefore individual), it's hard to answer in any definite way.

Murder, outside of self-defense, would warrant damnation, to me.

If damnation existed! :p

Nah, they can still vote democratic when they're dead.
HAHA! Troof! Just look at the last Wash. state gubernatorial election. :D

The only people who are unredeemable are people who don't want to be redeemed IMHO.

When they commit:
1. Murder with no reason
2. Rape (esp. of a child)
3. Genocide
4. Torture

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is suposedly the only unforgivable sin. That means that Hitler will eventually make it into heaven, while I will remain in Hell for all eternity.


WTF are you talking about? Cthulhu *is* the Holy Spirit!

Nah, they can still vote democratic when they're dead.

But will be purged from voter roles when alive. Now that's irony.

Nah, they can still vote democratic when they're dead.

Free votes for dead people!

But will be purged from voter roles when alive. Now that's irony.
Don't forget the military getting their votes thrown out for bullshit reasons.

Nah, they can still vote democratic when they're dead.

Exactly ... it shows that even death can redeem a Democrat.

Republicans are the cloven-hooved evil incarnate.

I thought that it wasn't possible for someones heart of become permenently hardened to the beckoning of the Hily Ghost? So there are people who can't be saved because their hearts are so hardened? God can't overcome this? Do you believe in a limited God? Are you a nostic Christian?

As far as I'm aware, 1) doesn't apply with reguards to mainstream Christian theology, and 2) is also open.

God created us with Free Will, and as long as we have that then yes one can become lost to the beckoning of the Holy Spirit.

The Lord doesn't directly influence a persons thoughts, rather sends little things to, umm.. influences one's choices. Same with Angel of Light, Lucifer.

At what point is someone beyond redemption in your mind? (Morally, religiously, or otherwise.) What decisions/actions are unforgivable? What would it take for you to turn your back on a family member?

nothing is beyond forgiveness, the question is "have they truely repented?".

Once they vote Democrat

Democrats, them and their belief that high taxes don't drive away businesses.

The second they vote Republican.

Or close their minds to other points of view. ;)

God created us with Free Will, and as long as we have that then yes one can become lost to the beckoning of the Holy Spirit.

If we have free will we can be lost to the beckoning of the Holy Ghost? But if we have free will then we can become unlost to the Holy Ghost by changing our minds. Therefore one can't become lost to the Holy Ghost. Neh?

I thought that it wasn't possible for someones heart of become permenently hardened to the beckoning of the Hily Ghost? So there are people who can't be saved because their hearts are so hardened? God can't overcome this? Do you believe in a limited God? Are you a nostic Christian?

As far as I'm aware, 1) doesn't apply with reguards to mainstream Christian theology, and 2) is also open.

One basic problem with these forums is that people tend to get into contests over who can out-last the other in an arguement. Sometimes, folks actually have a real discussion about serious topics. I think this thread is one which has the potential to impact people's lives. So, instead of me trying to convince you that the "hardening" of a person's heart is scriptural, I think it would be best for you to examine scriptures.

The scriptures are full of examples where God gave people the opportunity to repent. Many did and were restored; many didn't and were destroyed.

The first instance I can recall of a person's heart being hardened was that of Pharoah. Despite all the signs of God's power, he would not relent voluntarily and let the Hebrews out of captivity. It was only after his son died that he seemed to be convinced that he was in a losing power struggle. Even though he was shown in mighty ways how God was omnipotent, he ordered his army after the Hebrews to bring them back into captivity.

The concept of a hardened heart is explained further in the New Testament.

When they will not try to redeem themselves, although rapists and paedophiles are damn close (depends, some genuinely can not help themselves).

Murderers are capable of redemption. Look at Stan 'Tookie' Williams
Founded the Crips, went to jail for murders he did not commit, (although he still did bad shit), changed in prison and has since been nominated for 3 Nobel Peace Prizes, and 4 Nobel Literature Prizes for his anti-gang work
www.tookie.com

If we have free will we can be lost to the beckoning of the Holy Ghost? But if we have free will then we can become unlost to the Holy Ghost by changing our minds. Therefore one can't become lost to the Holy Ghost. Neh?

From a Biblical perspective (ignoring Catholic Church Tradition):

1. Death - your choice has been made
or
2. Having heard the Good News of Salvation, experienced the work of the Holy Spirit, but then having turned against Jesus, not accepted Salvation you have stepped beyond redemption. Hebrews 6:1-8

The second they vote Republican.

LOL! :D

Or close their minds to other points of view. ;)

Well that's just silly. NAMBLA has an "other" point of view. I'm not about to open my mind to it. Are you?

When they start thinking Sidney Sheldon writes literary classics.

At what point is someone beyond redemption in your mind? (Morally, religiously, or otherwise.) What decisions/actions are unforgivable? What would it take for you to turn your back on a family member?

I'd never turn my back on a family member. As for redemption, the only thing that puts someone beyond it is a permenant refusal to be redeemed.

If someone attacks me with the intent to do bodily harm, that's usually where I draw the line.

I can recover from bad words, adultery, but I don't recover from murder, and I don't want to be raped or abused in any way.

Put mildly, if it's a situation that would legally allow me to use lethal force, that's where I draw the line. An offender can't be redeemed from being dead.

I don't want to be raped or abused in any way.

Well there goes my weekend. :mad:

When they show no remorse, guilt or regret for hurting someone cold-heartedly without reason.

Well there goes my weekend. :mad:
It's not rape if I bend over and grease up for you.

It's not rape if I bend over and grease up for you.

:D :D :D

anyone who hurts, rapes, kills, a child.

:D :D :D
I would be more worried about incurring the wrath of Occidio...

I guess when the person convinces itself to be beyond redemption.

What he said.

I would be more worried about incurring the wrath of Occidio...


Shhh! She can hear you, ya know. *shifty eyes*

Well that's just silly. NAMBLA has an "other" point of view. I'm not about to open my mind to it. Are you?

You can approach something, even NAMBLA, open-mindedly and still come to the conclusion that it is wrong.

You can approach something, even NAMBLA, open-mindedly and still come to the conclusion that it is wrong.

I did that with Republicans and came to the conclusion that they are, in fact, a plague. Sorry everyone missed my "open minded" approach phase, but it was nearly 20 years ago. NS didn't exist then.

At What Point is Someone Beyond Redemption?

When they're dead.

I thought that it wasn't possible for someones heart of become permenently hardened to the beckoning of the Hily Ghost? So there are people who can't be saved because their hearts are so hardened? God can't overcome this? Do you believe in a limited God? Are you a nostic Christian?

As far as I'm aware, 1) doesn't apply with reguards to mainstream Christian theology, and 2) is also open.


The hardening of the heart is not a "limitation" of God. Rather, it is the consequence of repeated sin (like a callous) and/or ultimate unbelief (slandering the Holy Spirit). It is God's desire for everyone to be saved, but there simply are consequences to rejecting God.

I don't think the concept of a hardened heart is outside mainstream Christianity at all. The Old Testament contains many references to the hard condition of a sinner's heart and the need for that hard heart to be broken in repentance. When God selected Saul to be king over Israel, "God gave him another heart" (1 Samuel 10:9). Despite his new heart, Saul, sinned grievously in the matter of the Amalekites. When the prophet Samuel reproved him of his sin and gave him the words of God, Saul hardened his heart and refused to repent. Instead, he lied; he blamed others for his sin; he even assaulted Samuel. When he rejected God's word, God rejected him (1 Samuel 15:1-29 and 16:1, 14). This hardhearted king became God's enemy (1 Samuel 28:16) and ended up opposing God's people, killing God's people, resorting to witchcraft, and committing suicide.

The life of David, Israel' s second king, is remarkably different than that of Saul principally because David was genuinely repentant (even after repeatedly committing sin) . When God chose him to be Israel's new king, David had a heart approved by God (1 Samuel 16:7). God said later that David "followed me with all his heart, to do that only which was right in my eyes" (1 Kings 14:8). Despite his tender heart, David also sinned grievously against God (2 Samuel 11:27). When the prophet Nathan reproved him of his sin, David accepted the words of God (2 Samuel 12:1-13). Those words broke his heart and he repented of his sin, asking God to "Create in me a new heart" (Psalm 51:10).

The concept of a hard heart is carried through in the New Testament. Jesus discussed the hardening of the heart as it related to divorce. In Malachi 2:16 God leaves no doubt about His attitude towards divorce: "For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away." As Jesus explained later, the concept of divorce flies in the face of God's intended purpose for the family (Matthew 19:4-6). Yet when He gave the law to the nation of Israel, God included provision for divorce (Deuteronomy 24:1-4). When the Pharisees questioned this seeming contradiction, Jesus explained the reason: "Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives..." (Matthew 19:8).

Unbelief is a heart problem (Hebrews 3:8-13). The refusal to repent of sin results in a hardened heart. The Bible warns, "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God." (Romans 2:5). As their murder of Stephen showed, the religious leaders of Acts 7 refused to repent of their sins and believe on their Messiah. God described their heart condition (and the heart condition of all impenitent sinners) in Zechariah 7:11-12: "But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear. Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts."

Because sin hardens the heart, the cure of a hardened heart is repentance of the sin that caused the hardening. Whereas emotionalism might move the heart to sorrow and tears, the word of God breaks the heart and moves it to repentance. In Jeremiah 4:3-4, God compares this repentance to breaking up hard fallow ground and describes it as a circumcision of the heart. The fact that it can be circumcised shows that the repentant heart is no longer as hard as a stone.

Because destructive pride is the final step in the hardening of the heart, true humbleness is the final step in the cure of the hardened heart. Hardheartedness is spiritual rigor mortis-and only humbleness will allow God to revive a dead heart. Although pride prevents a sinner from turning to God for help (Psalm 10:4), a "contrite and humble spirit" will allow God "to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite one" (Isaiah 57: 15). When God revives a human heart, He makes it soft instead of hard: "... God maketh my heart soft ..." (Job 23:16).

Once God has broken a hardened heart, revived it, and then softened it, it is ready and able to serve Him. The Lord has promised that after people humbly repent of their hard deeds, "I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you: and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD" (Ezekiel 11:18-21). A synonym for "soft" is "tender." A tender heart is humble, responsive to the words of God, and kind and forgiving toward the brethren (2 Chronicles 34:27; Ephesians 4:32).

Ultimately, a hardened heart that is not softened prior to death results in a sinner receiving the ultimate condemnation of eternal separation from God. This is not result of a limitation of God, but is the consequence of unbelief (or, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit).