NationStates Jolt Archive

Im gonna have to say Hippies, they are funny, have a great take on life, and just want the better for the world. Goths piss me off and are scary.

Hippies also like better music, The Beatles, The Doors, The Greatful Dead, The Who, The Rolling Stones, etc.

Goths prefer heavy metal, death metal and goth rock. That stuff blows.

Hippies. Drugs and hedonism are far more fun in tie-dye.

It has to be Hippies...apart from the previously mentioned things...the clothes are cooler too.
All that creepy black goth stuff....ugh!

Hard to choose. They both have good music and both have a few interesting parts to the whole subculture. Conversely, they both have people who take the stereotypes of their subculture to annoying extremes, and both have annoying bits.
Ooh, and they both have pagans in them!

I'll have to vote for the hippies because of the free love and the LSD though.

Some hippies are cool. Some are lazy bastards who just follow the dead/phish/whatever shit band around and try to sell useless crap in the parking lot.

I've never met a goth.

Goths prefer heavy metal
Screw you, Im not a fucking goth!

Goths prefer heavy metal, death metal and goth rock. That stuff blows.
Dude, I listen to metal. So do many of my friends. I've been to Pantera concerts, I've seen Metallica, I've been to Ozzfest a few times. A skinny little guy in makeup would likely get his ass beat at many of those shows. (If all goths aren't skinny little guys in makeup, then I guess I stand corrected)

Skinny, young, male goths can be sexy. But then again so can skinny, young hippies. Aww, I wish one could have both at the same time.

Goths for the art, hippies for everything else.

Definitly hippies. I'm gonna buy a school bus, rip out the back seats, fill it with matresses and paint it psychadelic colors and then travel all around the U.S. Maybe even Canada, if the canuks like hippies.

Then, I'm gonna see if I can get some other people to join with me and we'll make a hippie caravan consisting of mopeds, school buses, and very large vans. We'll make money for gas by selling incense sticks, dream catchers, and tie dye clothing. We will travel the country and set up camp in the local city parks and will be known across the country as "The Traveling Crusading Hippy Caravan". We won't know why we put crusading in, but it sounds cool so it'll stay.

LONG LIVE THE HIPPIES! :cool:

BTW, I've seen hippies get in mosh pits, some of those guys are giants. I literally saw one dude get flung over the heads of the people in the pit when one of those guys punched him.

Goths are inherently more fun than hippies. Beside, they usually dig better stuff(art, drugs, music, you name it), than the hipsters - It is evident you people don't know a lot of Goths.

Hippies!!! Yay!

Definently better than Goths, though I respect them for the downfall of Rome.

Man, if hippie philosophy had caught and held on, the world would be a freaking utopia. Perhaps a dazed and a little smelly utopia, but still, a hell of an awesome place to live.

first, people don't take this so seriously and get pissed. just because you listen to that music doesn't mean you are a goth. they're just saying that's goths like that stuff.

as for me, i prefer hippies. they actually seem to like life. they wear bright, fun clothes, while goths are dark and dreary. who wants to be depressed like that? or look it atleast. for the record-i'm not accusing anybody of anything. this is just how i see people. so please don't be offended. and i know some goths and a hippy. and i prefer hanging with the hippy.

Yeah the Beatles!

I'd rather be a pussy (or hippy) than a faggy goth kid.

Definitly hippies. I'm gonna buy a school bus, rip out the back seats, fill it with matresses and paint it psychadelic colors and then travel all around the U.S. Maybe even Canada, if the canuks like hippies.

Then, I'm gonna see if I can get some other people to join with me and we'll make a hippie caravan consisting of mopeds, school buses, and very large vans. We'll make money for gas by selling incense sticks, dream catchers, and tie dye clothing.
No real hippie should use gasoline! It damages the environment!

As much as I love metal and respect goths, there's something about the music of the sixties that I just love even more ;)

Peace & Love!

Goths prefer heavy metal, death metal and goth rock. That stuff blows.

I have yet to meat a Goth that like Iron Maiden or Judas priest, for example. The more 'poser'-ish goths seem to like Cradle Of Filth, Dimmu Borgir and Children Of Bodom (which is, if you want to be precise, Power/Black Metal(well, that's no 'official' genre, but it best describes their mix of Black Metal vocals and Power Metal melodies))[/mini-rant]

Sex, drugs, and rock 'n' roll vs being sad all the time...

Hmm...

[QUOTE=The Border Colonies]Definitly hippies. I'm gonna buy a school bus, rip out the back seats, fill it with matresses and paint it psychadelic colors and then travel all around the U.S. Maybe even Canada, if the canuks like hippies.

Then, I'm gonna see if I can get some other people to join with me and we'll make a hippie caravan consisting of mopeds, school buses, and very large vans. We'll make money for gas by selling incense sticks, dream catchers, and tie dye clothing. We will travel the country and set up camp in the local city parks and will be known across the country as "The Traveling Crusading Hippy Caravan". We won't know why we put crusading in, but it sounds cool so it'll stay.

LONG LIVE THE HIPPIES! :cool:

QUOTE]
right on! hippies rule! plus they make better brownies! :D ;)

Im gonna have to say Hippies, they are funny, have a great take on life, and just want the better for the world. Goths piss me off and are scary.

Hippies also like better music, The Beatles, The Doors, The Greatful Dead, The Who, The Rolling Stones, etc.

Goths prefer heavy metal, death metal and goth rock. That stuff blows.
argh god! don't make me choose! :headbang:

Goths prefer heavy metal, death metal and goth rock. That stuff blows.

I have yet to meat a Goth that like Iron Maiden or Judas priest, for example. The more 'poser'-ish goths seem to like Cradle Of Filth, Dimmu Borgir and Children Of Bodom (which is, if you want to be precise, Power/Black Metal(well, that's no 'official' genre, but it best describes their mix of Black Metal vocals and Power Metal melodies))[/mini-rant]

Oh, and just out of curiosity, what kind of music do you like?

Man, don't make me choose! I love both hippies and goths! :fluffle:

hmm this would depend


are you reffering to the 70s/80s goths that were actualy trying to do something or the new age posers who conform to nonconformity

Definitly hippies. I'm gonna buy a school bus, rip out the back seats, fill it with matresses and paint it psychadelic colors and then travel all around the U.S. Maybe even Canada, if the canuks like hippies.

Then, I'm gonna see if I can get some other people to join with me and we'll make a hippie caravan consisting of mopeds, school buses, and very large vans. We'll make money for gas by selling incense sticks, dream catchers, and tie dye clothing. We will travel the country and set up camp in the local city parks and will be known across the country as "The Traveling Crusading Hippy Caravan". We won't know why we put crusading in, but it sounds cool so it'll stay.

oooh count me in... that sounds exactly like what i want to do! :D :cool:

i voted hippies cos of the hippy philosophy/politics - the world would be a better place.
and the LSD & weed of course:)

Hippies tried to make the world a better place.
Goths whine about how unfair life is when the majority of them are white middle class males with everything to live for. I hope they all commit suicide.

oooh count me in... that sounds exactly like what i want to do! :D :cool:

i voted hippies cos of the hippie philosophy/politics - the world would be a better place.
and the LSD & weed of course:)
heh, I am essentially a hippie that listens to metal, wears black and doesn't do drugs (but respects others' choice to do so)

ok, so that doesn't make much of a hippie :(

hippies stink. goths are ugly. i can take the ugly but i can't take the stink. i esp can't stand the smell of body odor, patcholi, and weed. my votes on the goths. at least they care about their self presentation. both are pretty darn hypocritical to me.

I hope they all commit suicide.
What a wonderfully constructive comment...

Depends how you define "Goth", I guess. There's a lot of people out there who wear black and listen to metal who don't call themselves Goths.

In any case, if anyone finds themself consciously trying to be a Goth, they're doing something seriously wrong. :rolleyes:

heh, I am essentially a hippie that listens to metal, wears black and doesn't do drugs (but respects others' choice to do so)

ok, so that doesn't make much of a hippie :(
hey, hippy-ism comes from the heart and your beliefs, not just what kind of music or mind-expanding drugs you do! you can be a hippie at heart, while being a goth on the outside (if you want... i wouldn't encourage that though;))

same here, really. i'm really a hippie born 40 years too late :(
in the 60s i would have so been a "proper" hippie, but now the time is gone; so i listen to metal, wear black (though occasionally other colours now), and do some of the drugs. its good enough i suppose.


to all wannabe hippies: check out this great site http://www.hippy.com/php/index.php

hippies whine about how everybody is destroying the world while getting high and doing nothing about it. goths whine about how their life is unfair even if they are middle class and can use mommy and daddy's money to buy all the expensive clothes from hot topics. i hate the way hippies patronize people and act like their better just because they eat organic wheat grass and don't shower with mother earths precious and sparce water.

i'd still take the goths. they just don't like people, they don't patronize them.

i don't really like christians either. they do the same thing as both groups.

Goth girls are gorgeous

Hippies!!

Goths equal more than half of my friends...I vote goths

Goth. I dig pretty girls dressed in tight black leather.

However, every good thing has a bad things.

Girls like that have creepy hobbies.

Well, hippies are more of my friends...

Goth girls are gorgeous
Not all of them...
http://www.batsday.net/dd/photos/DD_680796-M.jpg
*Shudders*

Not all of them...
http://www.batsday.net/dd/photos/DD_680796-M.jpg
*Shudders*
That reminds me of that one website/blogthingy 665 that the guy did a recurring faeture on fat goth girls on, and it was funny.

I was goth in 87 and a hippie in 93. Goths dwell on wordy depressing, poetry and are interested in Wicca! Hippies love everybody and acid. Ahhh... the good old days. :cool: And apparently a brand new generation of both.
420
(hippies rule!)

Goth girls are gorgeous
http://nfs.vampirefreaks.com/upic/D/Di/Dim/DimmuEclipse/1633141.jpg

The lobotomized or really freaky dressers?

I like to think I harbor some hippie qualities

Im gonna have to say Hippies, they are funny, have a great take on life, and just want the better for the world. Goths piss me off and are scary.

Hippies also like better music, The Beatles, The Doors, The Greatful Dead, The Who, The Rolling Stones, etc.

Goths prefer heavy metal, death metal and goth rock. That stuff blows.

No they don't. I prefer hippies because they've got a better philosophy, but goth's don't listen to heavy metal. You can't mope to hard rock.

to all wannabe hippies: check out this great site http://www.hippy.com/php/index.php

While you're at it.
http://www.themeatrix.com/

Dude, I listen to metal. So do many of my friends. I've been to Pantera concerts, I've seen Metallica, I've been to Ozzfest a few times. A skinny little guy in makeup would likely get his ass beat at many of those shows. (If all goths aren't skinny little guys in makeup, then I guess I stand corrected)

Stand corrected buddy and come to aus where some of the Goths here would kick your ass for saying that. It's kind of funny actually. Most of the goths I know a big dudes dressed in trenchcoats wearing 4inch spikes on their arm bands. NAsty

I was goth in 87 and a hippie in 93. Goths dwell on wordy depressing, poetry and are interested in Wicca! Hippies love everybody and acid. Ahhh... the good old days. :cool: And apparently a brand new generation of both.
420
(hippies rule!)

There is nnothing wrong with Wicca. It is in no way evil. The people that use it the wrong way are the ones who need to have their heads kharmically kicked in. I say this as a devout Wiccan, who cannot stand bias against us. Go yell at a setian. That's more Goth style.

Since my color receptors are weak, and I end up seeing just a hint of color, psychadelic doesn't do much for me. I'm gonna go with Goths sans the makeup.

Hippies because black is not an everyday color and scowling sucks

(To the tune of the French National Anthem or whatever that song with the cannons in is)

You hippies are all very stupid
You wear stupidly coloured clothes
You litter our streets
And get trashed on weird drugs,
All in all, being hippy blows

1812 overture?

I'm more or less a slacker, which puts me closest to hippie. However, since I'm sick to death of little pricks with sticks up thier ass picking on goths like it makes any difference how they feel like being I'm going to say SOLIDARITY! No choose, we stand on the same side looking over at you uptight assholes with our middle finger high in the air. I hate to be reduced to this, but it seems all to fitting-Get a life rather than huffing and puffing about how others spend thiers.

1812 overture?

Exactly.

I voted for goths because:

a. I find goth fashion more aesthetically pleasing
b. I prefer goth music
c. I would choose absinthe over marijuana every time
d. Hippies bother me, the way they're so relaxed all the time... Like they know something we don't >.>

I voted for goths because:

a. I find goth fashion more aesthetically pleasing
b. I prefer goth music
c. I would choose absinthe over marijuana every time
d. Hippies bother me, the way they're so relaxed all the time... Like they know something we don't >.>

we do. :)

I hate them both.

But goths are better. At least they aren't, well...hippies.

Hippies hands down.

You got the comfortable mocasins, you got the laziness factor. Plus all goths do is whine about stupid stuff. Hippie's actually whine about something meaningful, even if they don't do anything about it... Not to mention the VW bus. That is the immediate reason hippies are better.




Did I mention the laziness part?

hmm well im gonna goths because they do tend to like heavier music, but then again hippies are fun and dont worry about anything, im a mix of the two.

Hippies; weed beats cloves hands down morning noon or night any day of the week.

c. I would choose absinthe over marijuana every time

you're crazy

d. Hippies bother me, the way they're so relaxed all the time... Like they know something we don't >.>

hell yeah we do :cool:

I dont like either one, but Ill take the laid back, happy, peace and love guys over the depressed emo whores any day.

Goths.

I can't stand that much flashy, distorted color, and my mother was a hippy.. and.. no.

Besides. I have sharp teeth. A little nip here, a little chomp there, and I'd have a bedful of girls who wish they were a vampire's playthings.

Besides, I'm a Phantom of the Opera fan (and faintly resemble the guy in the film, sans scarring), and I refuse to consider a Phantom of Woodstock.

I don't like or dislike someone just because they are a hippie or goth, I like or dislike someone once I have had a chance to figure out their personnality.

You silly little Americans will never realise that there is a middle way. Moshers! They encompass some quite hippyish people and some quite gothic people in a crazy melange of people trying to be a minority. I am told howeve that moshers are merely a phenomenon of northern england. Spread the good news my mosher brothers and sisters!

I don't like or dislike someone just because they are a hippie or goth, I like or dislike someone once I have had a chance to figure out their personnality.

which lifestyle of the two would you prefer if you were to choose?

Hippy Goths!

Well, why not? It could work. *shrugs*

It works very well. The dividing lines have been broken. You are either a mosher or not a mosher. There are no other real divides appart from divides between individuals within the same group. Some people are more hippyish and some are more gothic but they all come together in their desire to wear baggy jeans and pretend to be rebelious.

Can I make a suggestion to research a little further than you have been doing?

http://www.goth.net/goth.html

If you read that then there are no set parameters for gothicism besides dressing in black and the way you carry and hold yourself in life.

Just because someone listens to rock or metal music doesn't catagorize them as more gothier than another person.

I think some of you people need to get their heads around the whole subject before jumping in at the deep end and making conclusions that wouldn't stand a hope of holding any weight...but that's just my opinion as it's not up to me to judge, that's what you do yourselves.

haZe
-=-

I prefer Hoths myself.

Damn Wampas.

I've been to Pantera concerts, I've seen Metallica, I've been to Ozzfest a few times. A skinny little guy in makeup would likely get his ass beat at many of those shows. (If all goths aren't skinny little guys in makeup, then I guess I stand corrected)

I'm a skinny little guy in a makeup. Haven't gotten my ass beat up on any show so far, from the heavy-metal overweight never-in-their-whole-life-taken-a-bath drunkards.
That's why they always carry firearms. ;)
Congratulations, you just met a goth.

Hippies, been called that myself. :D

I say none of them Goths Or Hippies are the best I say Gangsters

Both are just labels for people who need to get laid.

C) None of the above.

They're all just people, but on the whole I find those and other "movements" annoying.

Hm. Hippies have better politics, but ugly clothes (bellbottoms are hideous). Goths have a more accurate outlook on life and listen to better music. So I'll take goths.

*grins*
Give me a laugh, someone go onto either Alt.Gothic or uk.people.gothic with that question. It's been argued so long and so often that I think the regulars would just cry!

I would (in general) categorise myself as a goth. I'm not *trying* to be a goth. But I am goth. However, according to most of the comments in this thread, I just plain don't qualify.
I don't like heavy metal, doom metal, black metal, or pretty much any type of metal (although metal is in my musical roots and I can appreciate the retro value). I do like 'depressing' music sometimes (there is something wonderful about loosing yourself in the smoke on the dancefloor whilst softly swaying/pacing to Bauhaus). I also like perky music (and the Cure are one of my favourites) and down right cheesy music (it's great fun prancing about the dance floor with one hand clamped to my forehead to the Mission).
However, my current love is electro. Almost every type of (alternative) electro. I love dark dance music, harder techno, experimental/rhythmic noise, anything that gives me a reason to get my glowsticks out. And, somewhat in that vein, although I wear black all the time, when I go out clubbing, it's black edged with UV pink (which looks *fantastic*).

So, yeah :)
Goth rules. And there's a lot more to it (and to us) than you would think.

Blessings
Cyber
(heh-does my name give my cyber leanings away?)

hmm this would depend


are you reffering to the 70s/80s goths that were actualy trying to do something or the new age posers who conform to nonconformity

Nice shot. :sniper:
I tend to prefer GOths, as at least they are not always under the influence of something, but either extreme is irritating.
but Goths don't really listen to heavy metal, they are more doom/death metal, or some weird blend of downbeat hardcore/emo/punk. Stuff like AFI and Alkaline Trio. Believe it or not there is a difference between death metal and heavy metal

http://nfs.vampirefreaks.com/upic/D/Di/Dim/DimmuEclipse/1633141.jpg
A-ha, but those girls aren't goths, they're juggalettes! At least based on their make up.




Originally Posted by Peffiko
c. I would choose absinthe over marijuana every time
you're crazy
What's so crazy about that?

Neither, really. But if I had to choose one, I'd have to say "Goths". At least goths know the purpose of soap.

Tons of patchouli oil != clean ... or even the illusion of clean.

wtf? If I read this I come to ask myself the question how many of you people voicing there oppinion about goths actually know at least a bit what the hell you are talking about.
Goths are just people who need to get laid.
Goths have all creepy hobbies.
Goths are all sad and depressed all the time.
Goths whine about the unfairness of life when have everything they need for a good life.
Goths are ugly.


What's wrong with you? It has been a long time since I have seen so many stupid stereotypes at once...look my best friend is a goth. She is one of the most friendly and caring people I know. Although she can be a cat sometimes, she can also be extremely cute if she wants it. She is probably what you would consider a true goth, loving gothic art and architecture and really knowing what way of life she is living. Not one of those little wannabe goths who have heard a bit about it thought it was cool, started dressing in black and never tried to find out what Goth is really representing.
But anyway, I'm not a goth but I have come to see that Gothic is a very deep and interesting lifestyle that has a lot of appealing and interesting things in it. These stereotypes up there are just wrong most for the majority of real goths and I consider them plain stupid.

And Laenis, to your comment: "I hope they all commit suicide."

I was really in rage when i read this, because here is somebody, that has no idea what he's talking about, saying that a group of people, he probably doesn't now anything about, should go and kill themselves just because they are the way they are...if goths were a reace this you make you a racist of the worst kind. The way it is it just makes you ignorant and full of cruel stupidity.

Personally, I'd prefer a half-breed ---- half hippy and half goth. Oops! That's me! hehe.

Goth. I do like Industrial and EBM, find that goth chicks are hot and occassionaly dress up like a rivethead. Call me a skinny whiner and i either laugh out loud or show you that "they're all wussies" might be an unhealthy prejudice.

I don't think goth and hippy can really be compared, they are both so different, but followers of both subcultures tend to be laid-back, artistic, interesting and very cool people, even if goths tend to be place more emphasis on the darker side of life and whereas hippies tend to be more associated with cannabis and the 60s.
I've always have more gothic leanings meself, but that's just cuz I like the music more (JOJ is the best band in the world and no mistake) so just for that I'm voting goth. But both are cool, and all are against chavs :p

I thrive on kicking the shit out of the goth punks that lurk in the mall. Hot Topic and KMFDM doesn't make you gothic, original, or even tolerable. It just means you're an idiot.

One of these douches actually said to me "My life consists of nothing but the macabre." To which I replied,"Sure, poser. Have fun with that."

I agree that 99% of these kids should contemplate a good dose of rat poison or a swandive off a building. I mean, hell, what's more trendy and gothic than suicide? Nothing. That's what.

I've always had long hair, listened to old rock, I tend to smoke alot of herb and done 'psych's' often enough. Never worn a tye-dye shirt, though... Am I a hippy? Dunno, but they get my vote anyway.

hippies anyday...free drugs and love, not some depressed fucked up heavy metal music-loving, white faced muppet

Hippies have a greater appreciation for nature and are generally more light-hearted.

However, goths have some interesting depressing views about....er....themselves.....er...oh, no, I'll stick with the hippies.

What's so crazy about that?
i love weed. to me its crazy :)

hippies whine about how everybody is destroying the world while getting high and doing nothing about it. goths whine about how their life is unfair even if they are middle class and can use mommy and daddy's money to buy all the expensive clothes from hot topics. i hate the way hippies patronize people and act like their better just because they eat organic wheat grass and don't shower with mother earths precious and sparce water.

i'd still take the goths. they just don't like people, they don't patronize them.

i don't really like christians either. they do the same thing as both groups.

Anybody else not like that last sentence?

I'm old enough to remember the hippiecritical bastards the first time round. The dope made them think Thatcher was a great idea and what we needed. They soon straightened out and all became yuppies and human rescources managers and made everyone's life a misery. Fucking wimps!!!

I agree that 99% of these kids should contemplate a good dose of rat poison or a swandive off a building. I mean, hell, what's more trendy and gothic than suicide? Nothing. That's what.


People, please witness another example of ignorance and stupidity in the world

Dude, I listen to metal. So do many of my friends. I've been to Pantera concerts, I've seen Metallica, I've been to Ozzfest a few times. A skinny little guy in makeup would likely get his ass beat at many of those shows. (If all goths aren't skinny little guys in makeup, then I guess I stand corrected)

I with you ass kicked.

both and neither

they both have their good and bad points. some better or worse than others depending on teh person.

Goth and hippie chicks are especially hot in many cases in their own unique ways.

in truth though... i really dont hang with anyone that places a label on themselves and then lives as closely to the image of that label as they can.

I'd have to say hippies, no contest. They have their flaws, but goths are just not that cool. They are too fixated on death, in particular, with their faux-existentialist mood and love of music centering around death (don't they realize Bach/Evangelions' Komm Süsser Tod is far superior to death metal, anyway?), which is rather unhealthy. Hippies seem much more life affirming.

The fact that goths look like the bad guys from Full Metal Alchemist while hippies look more like the greats from surrealism and socialism tends to sway my opinion a great deal. If I saw these people in real life, I'd be tempted to draw a transmutation circle and such.
http://nfs.vampirefreaks.com/upic/D/Di/Dim/DimmuEclipse/1633141.jpg

Dude, I listen to metal. So do many of my friends. I've been to Pantera concerts, I've seen Metallica, I've been to Ozzfest a few times. A skinny little guy in makeup would likely get his ass beat at many of those shows. (If all goths aren't skinny little guys in makeup, then I guess I stand corrected)

I think you must consider yourself as 'standing corrected'.

I think you must consider yourself as 'standing corrected'.


No kidding, I'm a black guy in the Marines and both me and my bro love the goth sceen

hippies whine about how everybody is destroying the world while getting high and doing nothing about it. goths whine about how their life is unfair even if they are middle class and can use mommy and daddy's money to buy all the expensive clothes from hot topics. i hate the way hippies patronize people and act like their better just because they eat organic wheat grass and don't shower with mother earths precious and sparce water.

i'd still take the goths. they just don't like people, they don't patronize them.

i don't really like christians either. they do the same thing as both groups.

Yeah, because money is the only thing that leads to happiness. Sure not for a good deal of people, but many of the "goths" are in that culture due to neglect or abuse as young children. Tell someone who was raped and beaten as a child that they have no reason to be depressed and act like that because they have money.


Goth girls are gorgeous

Agreed, big time.


I am not goth, and although my ideal life would be a hippy, I feel like doing something more with my life than just tripping on acid and getting stoned though. But don't get me wrong, that life would rock.

Not all of them...
http://www.batsday.net/dd/photos/DD_680796-M.jpg
*Shudders*

Eye of the beholder, and all that.

I know people that think Paris Hilton is attractive.

There really IS no accounting for taste.

Personally - I know many, many gorgeous gothgirls and gothboys... and many more gothpersons who are lovely despite their appearance.

People, please witness another example of ignorance and stupidity in the world

*snicker* Perhaps the sarcasm in my post was missed by a few...

...or perhaps reading comprehension is a skill some of us still lack.

-Pants

I have yet to meat a Goth that like Iron Maiden or Judas priest, for example.



I'm a goth... I like both Iron Maiden and Judas Priest from what I have heard of them. (Usually at the residences of my companions)

No kidding, I'm a black guy in the Marines and both me and my bro love the goth sceen

I lived in Leicester, in the UK... where there is quite a big goth scene.

We had black goths, white goths, indian goths, chinese goths, big goths, little goths, 'perky' goths, 'metal' goths, 'industrial' goths, 'punk' goths, 'uber' goths... goth boys, goth girls, goth transgenders, goth transvestites... 'fetish' goths...

I pity those who think that wearing black and listening to Dimmu Borgir is the Sum and Substance (subtle goth joke) of being 'goth'.

Former goth here, it was a phase that I grew out of in 8th Grade, and I can safely say, that the kids who go thru that will grow out of it by junior year in highschool, (Except for the few holdouts).

If I were to be asked, who would I prefer to hang out with... Both, you can't judge someone by the 'School Social Class'. Half my Friends are former goth, and the other half are Hippies. Now, most of us have fallen into other categories, much of the mainstream fell into the Computer Nerd/Avid Gamers.

People, please witness another example of ignorance and stupidity in the world


Apparently the concepts of sarcasm and humor escape you......

I don't mind either. I have friends who are both and not even close. But if I made sweeping generalizations, I would say I prefer hippies.

They are more laid back. :)

Eh, I really don't care for people who stick to one 'group' because they think it's cool or the 'in' thing. I like people who are just themselves.

Me personally?

Being Greek I have naturally black hair and facial hair. I like to wear only black shirts because I like the color, however I despise black pants. I prefer to wear baggy blue jeans over anything, although I do have 1 black pair of pants (they're paintball pants, so that's the only reason I wear them). I've been listening to death metal, hardcore metal, and the like for many years. Why? Not because I consider myself a goth, but because I find that style of music enjoyable. But that's not to say that I don't listen to other kinds of music. I'll sing along with Linkin Park and growl along with Bleeding Through all the same.

I have my own little 'style' that is ME and nothing else. I don't follow trends and most of the people I hang around don't do that either. I really don't care for those kind of goth kids that are always 'I hate my life, darkness and gloom everywhere, blah!'. Dressing a certiain way or listening to a certain kind of music only because you want to fit into some sort of social class is lame in my opinion.

Someone who doesn't know me might see me one day with my naturally black hair wearing a black band shirt and black paintball pants and assume I'm a goth....that is until they talk to me. I'm more of a 'life of the party' kinda guy then a 'I hate my life' kind guy.

I dunno, I just wish people would do their own thing.

I thrive on kicking the shit out of the goth punks that lurk in the mall. Hot Topic and KMFDM doesn't make you gothic, original, or even tolerable. It just means you're an idiot.

One of these douches actually said to me "My life consists of nothing but the macabre." To which I replied,"Sure, poser. Have fun with that."

I agree that 99% of these kids should contemplate a good dose of rat poison or a swandive off a building. I mean, hell, what's more trendy and gothic than suicide? Nothing. That's what.

I've always had long hair, listened to old rock, I tend to smoke alot of herb and done 'psych's' often enough. Never worn a tye-dye shirt, though... Am I a hippy? Dunno, but they get my vote anyway.

First - one assumes the 'goth punks' you are talking about are too small to fight back. Beating up kids in the mall. My hero.

Second - way to give Pantera a bad name, buddy.

Hippies piss me off. I really dun like 'em. Goths, I tend to identify with..though not the ones that live the Goth stereotype of being constantly depressed, gloomy,etc for attention. It's one thing to be dark, and intellectual, and wear interesting non mainstream clothes, but to seemingly relish in your own misfortune, and be like a number of others is decidedly unoriginal and uninspiring.

i lean to the hippie side, myself. i mean, the doors - whats better then the doors*? sure as hell not fucking danzig. i've been told im slightly hippie-like myself. so long as i dont smell like patchouli.

*note the lizard king statement in the signature.

Hippies back in the day were cool in my book. Good music, free weed, sex and LSD to be enjoyed while trying to stop the Vietnam War. However, modern hippies piss me off. Most of them are potheads that worship weed and listen to boring jam bands, neo-folk and Sublime. Plus, the whole dirty hippy thing started out more in the 70s. If you look at newsreels of protests in '68, most of the kids have collared shirts and medium-length hair.

Goths have never been cool. The whole idea of a subculture that is defined by opposition to mainstream culture is obnoxious. And Trent Reznor is a pretentious asshole.

Well.. i don't like stereotypes and categories. But through the eyes of other people, I used to be a goth, now i'm a hippie. So although i don't personally feel I belong in any category, I can definetly identify with both lifestyles.

Hippies back in the day were cool in my book. Good music, free weed, sex and LSD to be enjoyed while trying to stop the Vietnam War. However, modern hippies piss me off. Most of them are potheads that worship weed and listen to boring jam bands, neo-folk and Sublime. Plus, the whole dirty hippy thing started out more in the 70s. If you look at newsreels of protests in '68, most of the kids have collared shirts and medium-length hair.

Goths have never been cool. The whole idea of a subculture that is defined by opposition to mainstream culture is obnoxious. And Trent Reznor is a pretentious asshole.

you forgot peyote. horray for peyote.

First - one assumes the 'goth punks' you are talking about are too small to fight back. Beating up kids in the mall. My hero.

Second - way to give Pantera a bad name, buddy.


Um...I don't think he was being literal when he said that.

Again, sarcasm and humor escape some of you.

I'd have to say hippies, no contest. They have their flaws, but goths are just not that cool. They are too fixated on death, in particular, with their faux-existentialist mood and love of music centering around death (don't they realize Bach/Evangelions' Komm Süsser Tod is far superior to death metal, anyway?), which is rather unhealthy. Hippies seem much more life affirming.

The fact that goths look like the bad guys from Full Metal Alchemist while hippies look more like the greats from surrealism and socialism tends to sway my opinion a great deal. If I saw these people in real life, I'd be tempted to draw a transmutation circle and such.
http://nfs.vampirefreaks.com/upic/D/Di/Dim/DimmuEclipse/1633141.jpg

i used to be quite a 'goth', if i must categorise myself. and believe me, it wasn't by choice. I couldn't help my 'fixation with death'. Seriously. Don't pick on em', cos u got no idea what it's like to have a gothic mind. It hurts.

i used to be quite a 'goth'... believe me, it wasn't by choice.
News: "Scientists find 'gothic' gene"

Um...I don't think he was being literal when he said that.

Again, sarcasm and humor escape some of you.

See, there's where I went wrong.

We do it different, down our way...

See, where I come from... humour is supposed to be in some way 'funny'.

Goth. I dig pretty girls dressed in tight black leather.

However, every good thing has a bad things.

Girls like that have creepy hobbies.

Hah, you're hilarious. I love it.

It constantly amazes me just how little people know about the gothic subculture (judging by some of the replies here); the misinformation and preconceptions are staggering...

*snicker*

First - one assumes the 'goth punks' you are talking about are too small to fight back. Beating up kids in the mall. My hero.

Second - way to give Pantera a bad name, buddy.

First - One would assume wrong. I'm a pretty big guy myself, 6'4", 240 or so. Most of these *kids are big as well, especially their 'leader' who is the biggest douche of them all and is larger than me by a fair sight. They strut about like the cocks of the walk, bothering people, vandalizing, and generally making asses of themselves. I've never gone out of my way to start shit with them, but -they- have come to me, looking for it, and more than once. So, do I need to thrash these punks everytime I go to the mall? No. Instead of picking fights with these morons, I simply unleash my gift of gab.

Why should I kick their asses when I could just as easily disassemble them with words? 99% of them know they're posers, and it terrifies them that someone might call their bullshit. Case in point:"My life consists of nothing but the macabre." ...Is that so? Care to elaborate? No? Care to explain exactly what 'macabre' means? Don't know that either? And how, if you have absolutely no clue what 'macabre' is aside from it's a word associated with horror movies and it 'sounds cool', can every day of your life be filled with it? No answer? What about your friends? They don't know either? I rest my case.

Second - Sure dude...

The problem I have with these kids is that instead of simply being themselves, they go out of their way to be as out there and off the wall as possible. It's like they're screaming "LOOK AT ME! LOOK! LOOK! LOOK! I'm wearing chainmail and leather! I -MUST- be extremely original, right?"

Wrong. I wear black clothes, myself. I also listen to Dimmu Borgir, Type-O, and a dozen other bands that are considered 'Gothic'. I'm interested in wicca, death, and the pale, sickening underbelly of what everyone else percieves as a 'good place to live'. I dislike the culture I live in{Texas, ugh}, and most of those around me. Does that mean I should dedicate myself to a lame counter-culture? I sure hope not because that is out of the question.

My real problem with these kids is NOT that they shop at Hot Topic, listen to depressing music, or wear makeup. Hell, I like the shirts at HT, I listen to some depressing music, and I've even been known to sport a spot of eyeliner to the club. The problem I have is that these kids refer to themselves as 'gothic' and go out of their way to make sure everyone knows it.

Are they truly that starved for attention that they feel the need to label themselves with a cheesy, played out stereotype? For myself, I would rather bask in obscurity than subscribe to some half-assed idea of a counter culture. Black clothes, makeup, and piercings don't make you original or unique. You already are unique, or you would be if you'd take that shit off and just be yourself. All that crap is just fashion. It doesn't even single you out anymore, becaust it's the same fashion that a million other fucks are sporting.

In closing I'll say that I have alot of friends who would probably be considered 'gothic' by sight. One in particular has been a 'goth' since before I heard the term, and yet, he's never given in to the crap that alot of kids seem to thrive on lately. He's himself, and that's enough. Instead of -trying- so hard to be original and noteworthy, he just is. That's him. The goth punks in question should learn from him.

Rather than relying on gaudy piercings, black makeup, and fishnet pantyhose to make him who he is, he simply dominates a scene by force of personality. He's one of the most original, sharp-minded people I've met in my life, and not one bit of him is store-bought or contrived.

We should be encouraging and thriving on our originality, rather than accepting lame stereotypes and running with them.

-Pants

{* The 'kids' I use above is just a term for immature fucks. Most of these punks are older than my 21.}

{New Fubaria wrote:
It constantly amazes me just how little people know about the gothic subculture (judging by some of the replies here); the misinformation and preconceptions are staggering...

Fair enough....
Disclaimer: My opinion on 'goths' has been formed by the astounding, jaw-dropping amount of posers that I've met through the years. Alas, I have yet to meet a decent, discussion worthy person who refers to themself as 'Gothic'. Hopefully I'll meet one soon and gain some insight, here...}

/long winded rambling. Hopefully I didn't lapse into gibberish halfway through. Sorry for any glaring mistakes or typos. I'm too tired to spellcheck it...

Apparently the concepts of sarcasm and humor escape you......


Actually I love sarcasm...it's just that this is involving my best friend (although you couldn't possibly know this) and I loose my sense of humor when soembody connects my friends and suicide. I'm sure that's understandable.

*snicker*



First - One would assume wrong. I'm a pretty big guy myself, 6'4", 240 or so. Most of these *kids are big as well, especially their 'leader' who is the biggest douche of them all and is larger than me by a fair sight. They strut about like the cocks of the walk, bothering people, vandalizing, and generally making asses of themselves. I've never gone out of my way to start shit with them, but -they- have come to me, looking for it, and more than once. So, do I need to thrash these punks everytime I go to the mall? No. Instead of picking fights with these morons, I simply unleash my gift of gab.

Why should I kick their asses when I could just as easily disassemble them with words? 99% of them know they're posers, and it terrifies them that someone might call their bullshit. Case in point:"My life consists of nothing but the macabre." ...Is that so? Care to elaborate? No? Care to explain exactly what 'macabre' means? Don't know that either? And how, if you have absolutely no clue what 'macabre' is aside from it's a word associated with horror movies and it 'sounds cool', can every day of your life be filled with it? No answer? What about your friends? They don't know either? I rest my case.

Second - Sure dude...

The problem I have with these kids is that instead of simply being themselves, they go out of their way to be as out there and off the wall as possible. It's like they're screaming "LOOK AT ME! LOOK! LOOK! LOOK! I'm wearing chainmail and leather! I -MUST- be extremely original, right?"

Wrong. I wear black clothes, myself. I also listen to Dimmu Borgir, Type-O, and a dozen other bands that are considered 'Gothic'. I'm interested in wicca, death, and the pale, sickening underbelly of what everyone else percieves as a 'good place to live'. I dislike the culture I live in{Texas, ugh}, and most of those around me. Does that mean I should dedicate myself to a lame counter-culture? I sure hope not because that is out of the question.

My real problem with these kids is NOT that they shop at Hot Topic, listen to depressing music, or wear makeup. Hell, I like the shirts at HT, I listen to some depressing music, and I've even been known to sport a spot of eyeliner to the club. The problem I have is that these kids refer to themselves as 'gothic' and go out of their way to make sure everyone knows it.

Are they truly that starved for attention that they feel the need to label themselves with a cheesy, played out stereotype? For myself, I would rather bask in obscurity than subscribe to some half-assed idea of a counter culture. Black clothes, makeup, and piercings don't make you original or unique. You already are unique, or you would be if you'd take that shit off and just be yourself. All that crap is just fashion. It doesn't even single you out anymore, becaust it's the same fashion that a million other fucks are sporting.

In closing I'll say that I have alot of friends who would probably be considered 'gothic' by sight. One in particular has been a 'goth' since before I heard the term, and yet, he's never given in to the crap that alot of kids seem to thrive on lately. He's himself, and that's enough. Instead of -trying- so hard to be original and noteworthy, he just is. That's him. The goth punks in question should learn from him.

Rather than relying on gaudy piercings, black makeup, and fishnet pantyhose to make him who he is, he simply dominates a scene by force of personality. He's one of the most original, sharp-minded people I've met in my life, and not one bit of him is store-bought or contrived.

We should be encouraging and thriving on our originality, rather than accepting lame stereotypes and running with them.

-Pants

{* The 'kids' I use above is just a term for immature fucks. Most of these punks are older than my 21.}

{

Fair enough....
Disclaimer: My opinion on 'goths' has been formed by the astounding, jaw-dropping amount of posers that I've met through the years. Alas, I have yet to meet a decent, discussion worthy person who refers to themself as 'Gothic'. Hopefully I'll meet one soon and gain some insight, here...}

/long winded rambling. Hopefully I didn't lapse into gibberish halfway through. Sorry for any glaring mistakes or typos. I'm too tired to spellcheck it...

Hmmm... others on this thread HAD implied that your post was sarcasm, but, it appears you were, in fact, in earnest.

Well. Well done to you, I guess... for asserting how 'different' you are to those 'gothic' kids. Sure... you dress like they do.... Sure... you listen to the same music.... Sure... you think about the same thoughts.

But, the IMPORTANT thing is that you refuse to be called 'goth', it seems... and thus, you lash out at those who DO apply that moniker?

Sorry, friend... but, if it walks like a goth and dances-two-step like a goth... well, you're probably a goth, and the sooner you 'come out of the goth-closet', the sooner the mallrats can recover from your goth-bashing, I guess.

Personally - I see nothing wrong with wearing leather and chainmail. I have gne to nightclubs wearing velvet and studded-leather armour greaves... I have gone to nightclubs wearing a PVC shirt and a latex skirt. So... perhaps these kids tend to look a lot alike... there ARE reasons why this could happen... like, for example, Hot Topic being pretty much the ONLY even-halfway-common outlet for anywhere-near-decent goth attire.

I can see the "Type-O" to Goth thing... I'm not actually seeing how a Black Metal band like Dimmu Borgir is getting roped into the goth scene...

Maybe it's just me.... I'd consider goth to be more like Lacrimosa, The Sisters of Mercy, the Horatii, Suspiria, Midnight Configuration, the Merrythoughts, Emma Conquest, Manuskript, Dragon Tears Descending, Voltaire, Android Lust, The Mission, Athamay, Inkubus Sukkubus, Rosetta Stone...

I can certainly understand being desperate to be counter-culture in Texas. A state that wants to ban Cheerleading for being too sexy, and the heart of the oil industry, and all the votes that can buy. Perhaps you disagree with how desperate some of the wannabes are to be counter-culture... but then, perhaps you should be celebrating the fact that these goth wannabes are actually making a stand, in their own way... by choosing a collective identity that is mired in counterculture, that breathes counterculture, that has managed (despite Manson) to remain outside of the commercial mainstream for more than two decades.

Maybe you should be celebrating the fact that the 'wannabes' are using words like macabre... at least it means they have SOME familiarity with culture... literature, maybe... or classic cinema.

In fact, by resisting their counter-culture, and by haranguing them over their pretensions, and by demeaning their gothic 'vocabulary'.... are you not merely acting as a pawn for the 'culture' that they are counter to?

Some of us are gothic... some of those among the gothic are innovators... pioneers. Others must follow. It is easy to be dismissive of them for following... but we cannot ALL be the cutting-edge.

Goths have cooler clothes.

Goths have cooler clothes.

Yeah, but a lot of them don't bathe... Wait, same with Hippies...

Damn.

Despite the fact i wear black & a trenchcoat all the time, i aint no goth. I'm gentle, sensitive and caring. I just like black gear.

It sickens me that people judge you for what you look like. Get to know the man before you diss him you crazies. :p

I like a mixture of music, from classical to some of the modern rock. I hate rock music where the guy just screams into the mike. Thats not music-thats a gurenteed sore throat. I like a good guitar solo.

But what the fuck is urban music about... jese it's all the same old shit over and over and over... and why do they have to always dance around with naked ladies in front of fast cars? How pathetic. Show offs.

Nu-hippies :p

Hippies. No question.

Why are there so many people slumping metal into the goth scene?
Ok, following are examples of a metal band and a goth band. See if you can sort out what pic belongs to which subculture. :rolleyes:
Exhibit A (http://www.londonaftermidnight.com/pics/pg517a.gif)
Exhibit B (http://www.ruskinarms.co.uk/resources/gallery/additionals/warchildphoto.jpg)

*snicker*



First - One would assume wrong. I'm a pretty big guy myself, 6'4", 240 or so. Most of these *kids are big as well, especially their 'leader' who is the biggest douche of them all and is larger than me by a fair sight. They strut about like the cocks of the walk, bothering people, vandalizing, and generally making asses of themselves. I've never gone out of my way to start shit with them, but -they- have come to me, looking for it, and more than once. So, do I need to thrash these punks everytime I go to the mall? No. Instead of picking fights with these morons, I simply unleash my gift of gab.

Why should I kick their asses when I could just as easily disassemble them with words? 99% of them know they're posers, and it terrifies them that someone might call their bullshit. Case in point:"My life consists of nothing but the macabre." ...Is that so? Care to elaborate? No? Care to explain exactly what 'macabre' means? Don't know that either? And how, if you have absolutely no clue what 'macabre' is aside from it's a word associated with horror movies and it 'sounds cool', can every day of your life be filled with it? No answer? What about your friends? They don't know either? I rest my case.

Second - Sure dude...

The problem I have with these kids is that instead of simply being themselves, they go out of their way to be as out there and off the wall as possible. It's like they're screaming "LOOK AT ME! LOOK! LOOK! LOOK! I'm wearing chainmail and leather! I -MUST- be extremely original, right?"

Wrong. I wear black clothes, myself. I also listen to Dimmu Borgir, Type-O, and a dozen other bands that are considered 'Gothic'. I'm interested in wicca, death, and the pale, sickening underbelly of what everyone else percieves as a 'good place to live'. I dislike the culture I live in{Texas, ugh}, and most of those around me. Does that mean I should dedicate myself to a lame counter-culture? I sure hope not because that is out of the question.

My real problem with these kids is NOT that they shop at Hot Topic, listen to depressing music, or wear makeup. Hell, I like the shirts at HT, I listen to some depressing music, and I've even been known to sport a spot of eyeliner to the club. The problem I have is that these kids refer to themselves as 'gothic' and go out of their way to make sure everyone knows it.

Are they truly that starved for attention that they feel the need to label themselves with a cheesy, played out stereotype? For myself, I would rather bask in obscurity than subscribe to some half-assed idea of a counter culture. Black clothes, makeup, and piercings don't make you original or unique. You already are unique, or you would be if you'd take that shit off and just be yourself. All that crap is just fashion. It doesn't even single you out anymore, becaust it's the same fashion that a million other fucks are sporting.

In closing I'll say that I have alot of friends who would probably be considered 'gothic' by sight. One in particular has been a 'goth' since before I heard the term, and yet, he's never given in to the crap that alot of kids seem to thrive on lately. He's himself, and that's enough. Instead of -trying- so hard to be original and noteworthy, he just is. That's him. The goth punks in question should learn from him.

Rather than relying on gaudy piercings, black makeup, and fishnet pantyhose to make him who he is, he simply dominates a scene by force of personality. He's one of the most original, sharp-minded people I've met in my life, and not one bit of him is store-bought or contrived.

We should be encouraging and thriving on our originality, rather than accepting lame stereotypes and running with them.

-Pants

{* The 'kids' I use above is just a term for immature fucks. Most of these punks are older than my 21.}

{

Fair enough....
Disclaimer: My opinion on 'goths' has been formed by the astounding, jaw-dropping amount of posers that I've met through the years. Alas, I have yet to meet a decent, discussion worthy person who refers to themself as 'Gothic'. Hopefully I'll meet one soon and gain some insight, here...}

/long winded rambling. Hopefully I didn't lapse into gibberish halfway through. Sorry for any glaring mistakes or typos. I'm too tired to spellcheck it...
*claps*

this is precisely why i'm not a "Goth" nor want to be. i don't have a problem with others doing it if they want, but i'm sure as hell not going to. i'm myself - i listen to the music i like (which includes 'gothic' and hippie stuff), wear the clothes i like (again a mix of black and hippie) and although i don't think about it much, or intend or aim for it to be this way, i'm far more "original" than most of the posers who hang around the Bargate in this city (Southampton is kinda the 'goth capital' of the south, or at least it used to be)

Nu-hippies :p
hell yeah!:p

-Snip-

Rock on. Thats exactly what I think. And you're right - words are a great way to shut people up. I do it all the time. The Chav wannabes of Hastings are a constant bother, and I usually shut them up by critisising their terrible grammar. :D

But yeah, I hate people who consider themselves "Goths" and those who call others "Goths". You are yourself. What you wear in no way says who you are. I hate people who just pretend to be 'gothic' to get in with this pathetic crowd.

It makes me even more amused when they talk about suicide. I had a genuine reason for my attempt of course-I'm mentally unstable. But most of these pathetic crowd followers show off their 'suicide attemps' saying they used a knife. Most of the time they just make a few gashes with a pen. Pathetic. There's a word for that - Attention seeking. Try to smile and be a little more polite, and maybe you'll actually have a reason to be happy.

Chavs, hippies, Goths... pathetic crowds of people. Try to be unique, and you'll end up conforming. JUST BE YOURSELF. Thats as unique as you can be.

i think, just to clarify, the thing i don't like about "goths" is that they shout/boast about being part of their counter-culture so very much - far more than the people in said culture they are opposing ever do. thats what gets me.

i think, just to clarify, the thing i don't like about "goths" is that they shout/boast about being part of their counter-culture so very much - far more than the people in said culture they are opposing ever do. thats what gets me.

Indeed.

i think, just to clarify, the thing i don't like about "goths" is that they shout/boast about being part of their counter-culture so very much - far more than the people in said culture they are opposing ever do. thats what gets me.

Funny, the goths I know never did that...but I guess you would probably have to make a huge difference between american "goths" (who i would believe to be very stereotypic which is probably rooted in the fact that they live in America) and European gothics where there are definitely a lot who really know what they and why they do it.
With the suicide attempts...the people I know never boosted with them, because it was already hard enough to talk about it at all. Even to close friends.

Nu-hippies :p

Yay! :D

-snip-


What Pantera is saying is that he ( like a lot of us) are tired of seeing those poser 'goth' kids who run around spouting that they're gothic and refer to themselves as gothic.

If someone refered to themselves as a 'prep' or 'jock', you would probably laugh in their face. To us the same thing applies to the 'goths'. The bottom line is this, if you want to be 'goth' then be 'goth', just don't remind us of it every chance you get.

To put it in a perspective that I live in, I have played paintball for almost 8 years. I don't strut around bragging about how I'm this awesome tournament paintballing machine, but I know quite a few posers who do. I overhear their exaggerated conversations about how their marker can shoot 30+ balls a second, hear them throw around paintball terms like they actually know what they mean, and talk about how their marker is the best because it costs $1,500. I just laugh and shake my head, because I don't need to spout BS and act like my cock is 7 feet long to 'prove' to someone who I am. I don't have to prove anything to anyone, and when they step out onto the field with me their BS gets stuffed right back down their throat and people see just how foolish they are.

The bottom line is this: the 'true' people don't go around 'reminding' everyone about who and what they are. They just do their own thing without the need for the label.

What Pantera is saying is that he ( like a lot of us) are tired of seeing those poser 'goth' kids who run around spouting that they're gothic and refer to themselves as gothic.

If someone refered to themselves as a 'prep' or 'jock', you would probably laugh in their face. To us the same thing applies to the 'goths'. The bottom line is this, if you want to be 'goth' then be 'goth', just don't remind us of it every chance you get.

To put it in a perspective that I live in, I have played paintball for almost 8 years. I don't strut around bragging about how I'm this awesome tournament paintballing machine, but I know quite a few posers who do. I overhear their exaggerated conversations about how their marker can shoot 30+ balls a second, hear them throw around paintball terms like they actually know what they mean, and talk about how their marker is the best because it costs $1,500. I just laugh and shake my head, because I don't need to spout BS and act like my cock is 7 feet long to 'prove' to someone who I am. I don't have to prove anything to anyone, and when they step out onto the field with me their BS gets stuffed right back down their throat and people see just how foolish they are.

The bottom line is this: the 'true' people don't go around 'reminding' everyone about who and what they are. They just do their own thing without the need for the label.
exactly what he said.

What Pantera is saying is that he ( like a lot of us) are tired of seeing those poser 'goth' kids who run around spouting that they're gothic and refer to themselves as gothic.


Yes... damn them for calling themselves goths. They deserve to be verbally assaulted, and to have the shit kicked out of them???

Are you a better judge of how 'goth' they are? You seem to be complaining about their 'poser' qualities... attacking them for being goth wannabes. But, what are your own 'goth' credentials?

What about school children? They keep running around in their school uniforms.. learning their lessons. Rubbing it in our faces, they are... them and their 'school'. Bastards.


If someone refered to themselves as a 'prep' or 'jock', you would probably laugh in their face. To us the same thing applies to the 'goths'.


To be honest... it seems unlikely. Goths have always been a minority... and usually a victimised minority, at that. Most of my goth friends have been physically assaulted... many hospitalised... by people who took exception to them... chiefly, it seems, because they don't like people dressed in black, or feel threatened by guys in makeup.

I'm less likely to 'laugh in their faces', more likely to see how many of them there are... work out if they are going to feel brave enough in numbers to 'teach me a lesson'.

Pantera is acting just like the sorts of people I have ended up wrestling on the concrete with.

And, attacking goths just because you don't like how they look? Or what they stand for? Did we need a new Klan? Did we need another form of 'bashing'?


The bottom line is this, if you want to be 'goth' then be 'goth', just don't remind us of it every chance you get.


Why?

I have mentioned, on NS, maybe a half dozen times, that I am a 'goth'. Of course, if you saw me, you might THINK I was a goth... but that is YOUR problem, not mine. You are attacking these people because YOU have a problem with their projected image... not because goths keep 'telling you they are goths'.


To put it in a perspective that I live in, I have played paintball for almost 8 years. I don't strut around bragging about how I'm this awesome tournament paintballing machine, but I know quite a few posers who do. I overhear their exaggerated conversations about how their marker can shoot 30+ balls a second, hear them throw around paintball terms like they actually know what they mean, and talk about how their marker is the best because it costs $1,500. I just laugh and shake my head, because I don't need to spout BS and act like my cock is 7 feet long to 'prove' to someone who I am. I don't have to prove anything to anyone, and when they step out onto the field with me their BS gets stuffed right back down their throat and people see just how foolish they are.


Irrelevent, I think. Not sure what bragging about paintball has to do with the music, the literature, etc of the goth lifestyle.

Most of the wannabe goths feel rejected by the mainstream... and are pleased to find an identity in a group they CAN relate to... yet you seem to hold that against them... and yet, I'll wager you are not verbally haranguing the rough-looking bikers, or the bulky football fans.... you are, instead, picking on what seems to be the socially-accepted 'weak' element.

Thus, when you are attacking these wannabe goths, you are nothing but conformist society's pitbull.

So much for your self-asserted 'individuality'.

By the way: it could be argued that brash talk like "I don't have to prove anything to anyone, and when they step out onto the field with me their BS gets stuffed right back down their throat" IS exactly what you were claiming you DON'T do... and, in fact, what you 'hate' in goths.

One rule for yourself, and one for everyone else, I guess.


The bottom line is this: the 'true' people don't go around 'reminding' everyone about who and what they are. They just do their own thing without the need for the label.

True people? What is your credential for deciding who is 'true'? Only if you are dressed entirely different can you be 'true'? If you follow ANY fashion, you are not 'true'? If you are a member of any scene or team, you are not 'true'?

Many people I met were drawn into 'goth' through knowing me... you seem to be implying that they are not 'true' goths?

exactly what he said.

Can I get a shake, with my side order of 'delicious irony'?

Definitly hippies. I'm gonna buy a school bus, rip out the back seats, fill it with matresses and paint it psychadelic colors and then travel all around the U.S. Maybe even Canada, if the canuks like hippies.

Then, I'm gonna see if I can get some other people to join with me and we'll make a hippie caravan consisting of mopeds, school buses, and very large vans. We'll make money for gas by selling incense sticks, dream catchers, and tie dye clothing. We will travel the country and set up camp in the local city parks and will be known across the country as "The Traveling Crusading Hippy Caravan". We won't know why we put crusading in, but it sounds cool so it'll stay.

LONG LIVE THE HIPPIES! :cool:

BTW, I've seen hippies get in mosh pits, some of those guys are giants. I literally saw one dude get flung over the heads of the people in the pit when one of those guys punched him.

Thats awesome! You should totally do that!

Take a guess. Think of it as a journey of the mind to self awareness, and sudden epiphanies on the condition of man (woman) and how one relates to the world around them. Everthing you do, or say, or act upon effects the world around you and the people you encounter. Spreading peace, love and joy should be the responcibility of every human being on the planet. I realize this concept may be lost on some people, but hey, all you can do man, is stay in there and keep pitching. Make peace with your self, and your inner being will shine through to the people around you.

Yes... damn them for calling themselves goths. They deserve to be verbally assaulted, and to have the shit kicked out of them???

Did I personally condone people getting beat up by other people? No I didn't, so don't put words in my mouth.

Are you a better judge of how 'goth' they are? You seem to be complaining about their 'poser' qualities... attacking them for being goth wannabes. But, what are your own 'goth' credentials?

Being 'goth' simply because it's a trend is most definatly a poser quality. I know/knew many people who only followed trends because they were popular at the time. I have no problems with people who are and have been 'goth', but those who are 'goth' merely because they think it will increase their popularity need to get a clue.

You have no problem with a kid who is a skater one day because it's popular, but then the next day is a goth because skaters are no longer popular?

What about school children? They keep running around in their school uniforms.. learning their lessons. Rubbing it in our faces, they are... them and their 'school'. Bastards.

Don't know where this came from, but ooookay....



To be honest... it seems unlikely. Goths have always been a minority... and usually a victimised minority, at that. Most of my goth friends have been physically assaulted... many hospitalised... by people who took exception to them... chiefly, it seems, because they don't like people dressed in black, or feel threatened by guys in makeup.

I don't know where the hell you live, but I have never seen anyone where I live get beat up because of what clothes they wear. I've seen people get teased and made fun of, but never beat up. I do not believe that just because your 'goth' friends were beat up that all goths get beat up. Hasty generalizations.

I'm less likely to 'laugh in their faces', more likely to see how many of them there are... work out if they are going to feel brave enough in numbers to 'teach me a lesson'.

Why should you even concern yourself with the people your 'social class' (whatever you choose to call it really) chooses to ignore? Why can't you just go about your business and not even give them the time of day? I would think that by doing so they'd be less inclined to start something with you.

Pantera is acting just like the sorts of people I have ended up wrestling on the concrete with.

I believe that is your problem, not Pantera's. Pantera has a right to express his opinion on the 'goth' culture whether you like it or not. You seem to be the only one 'starting something' here. Why can't you just take one person's opinion on the goth counter-culture with a grain of salt?

And, attacking goths just because you don't like how they look? Or what they stand for? Did we need a new Klan? Did we need another form of 'bashing'?

Why?

I've been actively talking to Pantera for well over a year, and he hasn't once told me that he was arrested for beating anyone up. I know him better than you do, and I believe that his comments were of a figurative nature instead of a literal nature.

I have mentioned, on NS, maybe a half dozen times, that I am a 'goth'. Of course, if you saw me, you might THINK I was a goth... but that is YOUR problem, not mine. You are attacking these people because YOU have a problem with their projected image... not because goths keep 'telling you they are goths'.

I'm not attacking anyone, so please don't put words in my mouth (time #2 now). I could care less one way or another, but regardless of how you feel I am entitled to my opinion. I have friends of every walk of life: ghetto thugs, preps, jocks, stoners, goths, geeks, losers, nobodys, you name it. I don't judge people based on their style like you seem to be doing. You are making it seem that unless we are one of 'your kind' that we are the enemy.

Irrelevent, I think. Not sure what bragging about paintball has to do with the music, the literature, etc of the goth lifestyle.

You may or may not know about the sport, but it is actually a lifestyle of sorts to a lot of people. There are many things based on and off of paintball, including video games, clothing, shoes, artwork (yup, it's out there), and the like. Just as people can make other sports such as football and baseball a 'lifestyle', many people do it with paintball as well.

Most of the wannabe goths feel rejected by the mainstream... and are pleased to find an identity in a group they CAN relate to... yet you seem to hold that against them... and yet, I'll wager you are not verbally haranguing the rough-looking bikers, or the bulky football fans.... you are, instead, picking on what seems to be the socially-accepted 'weak' element.


I don't get 'verbally haranguing ' with ANYONE, regardless if they're a skinny goth or a buff football player. Again, just because I don't agree with every aspect of the goth culture DOESN'T mean that I am 'the enemy'. I have never discriminated against or picked on ANYONE regardless of their lifestyle, and you lumping me into the 'anti-goth' crowd is extremely unfair. Again, hasty generalizations....

Thus, when you are attacking these wannabe goths, you are nothing but conformist society's pitbull.

LOL. I am not 'conformist society's' anything, I don't believe that anyone should have to 'conform' to anything. I just disagree with the people who choose to be 'goth' only for popularity reasons. Don't like my opinion? Tough, I am entitled to it and should be able to express it freely without being being lumped into a 'us or them' category by someone who is pulling the same tactics on me that he despises.

So much for your self-asserted 'individuality'.

Individuality under false pretenses is NOT true individuality. Individuality is being yourself no matter what. People who are goths/preps/whatever just because they want the label need to just be themselves and get over it.

By the way: it could be argued that brash talk like "I don't have to prove anything to anyone, and when they step out onto the field with me their BS gets stuffed right back down their throat" IS exactly what you were claiming you DON'T do... and, in fact, what you 'hate' in goths.

No, again you put words in my mouth (time #3 now). What I meant was when people talk shit about how much better they are then me, I blow it off...unless they want to put their money where their mouth is. In that case I show them what I'm made of and the end result is they usually learn to can the big talk and show some respect. If anything, that statement was made more so in defense of your 'culture'.

One rule for yourself, and one for everyone else, I guess.

Wrong. There are no rules.


True people? What is your credential for deciding who is 'true'? Only if you are dressed entirely different can you be 'true'? If you follow ANY fashion, you are not 'true'? If you are a member of any scene or team, you are not 'true'?

You are not 'true' if you do it ONLY because you want to be popular or you think it may increase your social status in some way. People should be themselves because they ARE themselves, not because they want to fit in with the popular kids, regardless if they are goths, preps, or jocks.

Many people I met were drawn into 'goth' through knowing me... you seem to be implying that they are not 'true' goths?

If they did it for the sake of popularity or just to be your buddy, then no, they are not true goths. If the culture appealed to them and it is truely what they enjoy, then yes, they are true goths.

I'd rather be a goth than a hippie. At least the goths are more likely to be cleaner than the hippies.

Can I get a shake, with my side order of 'delicious irony'?
i was agreeing with the dude's post & opinion. exactly how is that 'delicious irony'?

pray tell, how should i be expressing agreement then? :rolleyes:


the basic point of it all - i can't be bothered to argue with you on specific points of contention - is that nobody likes it when somebody says "look at me, arent i such a such-and-such?"

like Pantera said, even if a 'jock' were to say "i'm such a jock" you'd just laugh at them for making such a... frankly ridiculously big-headed statement.

and thats our problem with goths. they say 'mainstream culture sucks and i don't want to be part of it', or 'i want to be an individual', which is fine. but then the problem comes when they follow up, as so often they do (hence why Pants calls the ones in his town 'posers'), with "i'm so part of the goth counter-culture" or something similar, or with similar sentiment. thats the problem. its this self-affirmation thats just annoying. this can, and is, either done with words or trying to be 'really goth' - and hence, to an outsider, missing what is assumed to be the point of not following mainstream culture & no longer striving after true individuality
don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with labelling yourself if you want to, but its the superioristic attitude to the whole lot that really compounds the problem. if someone were to say "i'm such a nerd!" there's no problem there - it doesn't seem arrogant or whatever because its light-hearted and self-demeaning. saying "i'm such a goth" or trying to be an uber-goth, compounded by it being such a 'serious' attitude (as in its not exactly light-hearted), just seems like you're saying that you are, or are trying to be, 'better', in your own terms, than other people in mainstream culture.

some goths are fine, of course, but many just take it too far or try to 'show off' about being gothic and nobody likes a show-off. thats the core of it.

i was agreeing with the dude's post & opinion. exactly how is that 'delicious irony'?

pray tell, how should i be expressing agreement then? :rolleyes:


the basic point of it all - i can't be bothered to argue with you on specific points of contention - is that nobody likes it when somebody says "look at me, arent i such a such-and-such?"

like Pantera said, even if a 'jock' were to say "i'm such a jock" you'd just laugh at them for making such a... frankly ridiculously big-headed statement.

and thats our problem with goths. they say 'mainstream culture sucks and i don't want to be part of it', or 'i want to be an individual', which is fine. but then the problem comes when they follow up, as so often they do (hence why Pants calls the ones in his town 'posers'), with "i'm so part of the goth counter-culture" or something similar, or with similar sentiment. thats the problem. its this self-affirmation thats just annoying. this can, and is, either done with words or trying to be 'really goth' - and hence, to an outsider, missing what is assumed to be the point of not following mainstream culture & no longer striving after true individuality
don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with labelling yourself if you want to, but its the superioristic attitude to the whole lot that really compounds the problem. if someone were to say "i'm such a nerd!" there's no problem there - it doesn't seem arrogant or whatever because its light-hearted and self-demeaning. saying "i'm such a goth" or trying to be an uber-goth, compounded by it being such a 'serious' attitude (as in its not exactly light-hearted), just seems like you're saying that you are, or are trying to be, 'better', in your own terms, than other people in mainstream culture.

some goths are fine, of course, but many just take it too far or try to 'show off' about being gothic and nobody likes a show-off. thats the core of it.

My post relating to you was referring to one aspect I see as ironic.

We have one poster complaining about (and claiming that he attacks, verbally and physically) goths because they are pretending to be part of a crowd, rather than an individual.

We have another poster, Automagfreek, seconding that 'lack of individuality' as a crime, and supporting Pantera's platfom.

Then - you appear as a third person railing against the 'lack of individuality' in goths.

To me - the irony is breathtaking.

It isn't an attack on you, personally... just look at the 'flow' of the debate.

Did I personally condone people getting beat up by other people? No I didn't, so don't put words in my mouth.


You supported Pantera's argument, and even when as far as to explain his/her motivations.

I draw your attention to what it was, exactly, that Pantera 'said', so that you can see what argument you are supporting.

"I thrive on kicking the shit out of the goth punks that lurk in the mall".

I'm not putting words into your mouth... you are defending Pantera's platform, thus you have taken the words into your mouth, yourself.


Being 'goth' simply because it's a trend is most definatly a poser quality. I know/knew many people who only followed trends because they were popular at the time. I have no problems with people who are and have been 'goth', but those who are 'goth' merely because they think it will increase their popularity need to get a clue.

You have no problem with a kid who is a skater one day because it's popular, but then the next day is a goth because skaters are no longer popular?


I doubt that many people are 'goth to increase popularity'... since goth has never been all that popular.

Many young persons move through several stages of discovery, of self-identity. Who is to say that the youth who is a 'goth' today, and a skater tomorrow isn't genuine about both aspects?

In fact, my ex was a goth/skater... sometimes more of one, sometimes more of the other.


Don't know where this came from, but ooookay....


If you are attacking based on conformity... on a 'uniform', then school children must really annoy you, right?


I don't know where the hell you live, but I have never seen anyone where I live get beat up because of what clothes they wear. I've seen people get teased and made fun of, but never beat up. I do not believe that just because your 'goth' friends were beat up that all goths get beat up. Hasty generalizations.


I lived in the city of Leicester, in the UK.... not an especially large city... in a county of maybe 250,000 people. If you live in a rural backwater, perhaps you have been saved from the predations of the 'normal' people.

I'm not generalising all that much. I have known goths from many places, and many of them have been physically attacked for their 'goth-ness'. Usually by what we used to refer to as 'Townies', and are now referred to as "Chavs"... the 'lads' out for a night on the town, who decide to kick the shit out of some guy because he is wearing makeup.

Also - your 'friend' Pantera claims that he (I assume 'he') does exactly the same thing to goths at the 'mall'. Perhaps he is being less than truthful?


Why should you even concern yourself with the people your 'social class' (whatever you choose to call it really) chooses to ignore? Why can't you just go about your business and not even give them the time of day? I would think that by doing so they'd be less inclined to start something with you.


I don't understand the question? What has it to do with social class? The people beating my friends down in the gutter, probably worked for the same company, in the same building. What do you mean 'concern yourself'? Perhaps you do not understand what I am saying... to some people (especially in groups) the mere SIGHT of a guy in makeup is sufficient motivation for some violence.

SO - are you saying goths should hide from the townies? That goths are somehow bringing this mindless violence on themselves, just by being 'goth'?

That is the same kind of logic that used to teach that a girl in a skirt WANTED to be raped.


I believe that is your problem, not Pantera's. Pantera has a right to express his opinion on the 'goth' culture whether you like it or not. You seem to be the only one 'starting something' here. Why can't you just take one person's opinion on the goth counter-culture with a grain of salt?


My problem?

Let me direct you back to Pantera's own words? "I thrive on kicking the shit out of the goth punks that lurk in the mall".

Perhaps I am misinterpreting that?

Maybe he meant he likes to give them kittens?

It isn't his 'opinion' about goths that causes me consternation.. it is his ACTING on his opinions. Hopefully, as he matures, he will learn to accept goths, and others he sees as 'posers' and less 'individual'.

Until that day, I disagree with his ACTIONS.


I've been actively talking to Pantera for well over a year, and he hasn't once told me that he was arrested for beating anyone up. I know him better than you do, and I believe that his comments were of a figurative nature instead of a literal nature.


I haven't talked to Pantera ever before, as far as I know. SInce I do not believe in the mindless perpetuation of hate, it is unlikely that I will debate with him again.

All I 'know' of Pantera - since I have never met him - is what he says online.

ANd, wht he said online is that he is a thug: "I thrive on kicking the shit out of the goth punks that lurk in the mall".


I'm not attacking anyone, so please don't put words in my mouth (time #2 now). I could care less one way or another, but regardless of how you feel I am entitled to my opinion. I have friends of every walk of life: ghetto thugs, preps, jocks, stoners, goths, geeks, losers, nobodys, you name it. I don't judge people based on their style like you seem to be doing. You are making it seem that unless we are one of 'your kind' that we are the enemy.


I also have friends of many different backgrounds, cultures and subcultures... and yet, it is not I who has made a point of targetting any group, is it?

You say you "don't judge people based on their style" and then continue, "like you seem to be doing"... which has me confused.

You HAVE been judging people on being 'goth' and being 'posers', in your words. I haven't. Given that, I fail to see what you can have meant by "I don't judge people based on their style like you seem to be doing".

I am not saying that anyone who isn't 'my kind' (whatever that is supposed to mean) is my enemy... but those who chose to perpetuate aggression and intolerance against me, JUST because THEY think I am a poser... or because they 'hate" goths... well, they are obviously not a boon to my existence.


You may or may not know about the sport, but it is actually a lifestyle of sorts to a lot of people. There are many things based on and off of paintball, including video games, clothing, shoes, artwork (yup, it's out there), and the like. Just as people can make other sports such as football and baseball a 'lifestyle', many people do it with paintball as well.


Still don't see the relevence... but hey, knock yourself out.


I don't get 'verbally haranguing ' with ANYONE, regardless if they're a skinny goth or a buff football player. Again, just because I don't agree with every aspect of the goth culture DOESN'T mean that I am 'the enemy'. I have never discriminated against or picked on ANYONE regardless of their lifestyle, and you lumping me into the 'anti-goth' crowd is extremely unfair. Again, hasty generalizations....


Not my generalisation, though. You have chosen to support, and explain, Pantera's platform. Pantera expressly stated that he enacts violence on goths. You have sided with that manifesto.


LOL. I am not 'conformist society's' anything, I don't believe that anyone should have to 'conform' to anything. I just disagree with the people who choose to be 'goth' only for popularity reasons. Don't like my opinion? Tough, I am entitled to it and should be able to express it freely without being being lumped into a 'us or them' category by someone who is pulling the same tactics on me that he despises.


I haven't amde any 'us and them' distinctions.

All I have said is: if you support Pantera's politics of hate, you are counter to my survival, and counter to my beliefs.

If you renounce Pantera's politics of violence, I do not categorise you as anything.

I'm betting that the FIRST time you played paintball, you probably went with someone who was a more experienced player. Doesn't that make you the 'poser' in the 'paintball' crowd?


Individuality under false pretenses is NOT true individuality. Individuality is being yourself no matter what. People who are goths/preps/whatever just because they want the label need to just be themselves and get over it.


Believe it or not, we are not really THAT individual, as a species. Most of us chose some form of 'identity'. A football team we support, perhaps. I drink coke, not Pepsi... very few of us are entirely individual... personally - I consicder myself to be very individual, but I buy clothing from Hot Topic.. so I MUST be sharing SOME aspects with SOME other people.


No, again you put words in my mouth (time #3 now). What I meant was when people talk shit about how much better they are then me, I blow it off...unless they want to put their money where their mouth is. In that case I show them what I'm made of and the end result is they usually learn to can the big talk and show some respect. If anything, that statement was made more so in defense of your 'culture'.


That's not what you said. You said:

"I don't strut around bragging about how I'm this awesome tournament paintballing machine".

and then, contradicted it with:

"and when they step out onto the field with me their BS gets stuffed right back down their throat"

You set up your non-bragging, non-poser status.... and then, a mere couple of lines later, you were bragging about what a paintball machine you are...


You are not 'true' if you do it ONLY because you want to be popular or you think it may increase your social status in some way. People should be themselves because they ARE themselves, not because they want to fit in with the popular kids, regardless if they are goths, preps, or jocks.

If they did it for the sake of popularity or just to be your buddy, then no, they are not true goths. If the culture appealed to them and it is truely what they enjoy, then yes, they are true goths.

Very few people do things for ONE motivation.

Most of those you see as not 'true' goths are probably PARTLY being 'goth' for the social value... a crowd to identify with. But they must ALSO have some 'goth' identity already, or they would have chosen a different group to 'hang' with.

My post relating to you was referring to one aspect I see as ironic.

We have one poster complaining about (and claiming that he attacks, verbally and physically) goths because they are pretending to be part of a crowd, rather than an individual.

We have another poster, Automagfreek, seconding that 'lack of individuality' as a crime, and supporting Pantera's platfom.

Then - you appear as a third person railing against the 'lack of individuality' in goths.

To me - the irony is breathtaking.

It isn't an attack on you, personally... just look at the 'flow' of the debate.
yeah ok when you look at it that way, ok:D

how about the rest of my post? :confused:

You supported Pantera's argument, and even when as far as to explain his/her motivations.

I draw your attention to what it was, exactly, that Pantera 'said', so that you can see what argument you are supporting.



I'm not putting words into your mouth... you are defending Pantera's platform, thus you have taken the words into your mouth, yourself.

Allow me to address all 3 of these points.

Perhaps you missed the part of Pantera's post where he said that the goths in his part of the US are the ones that start shit with him. Perhaps you also fail to realize that you are defending the aggressive party here, which are these goth kids. But neither of us live in Texas, so neither one of us truely knows what Pantera has experienced. Have you ever thought that maybe the goth kids where he lives are total assholes who like to start fights with him?

They strut about like the cocks of the walk, bothering people, vandalizing, and generally making asses of themselves. I've never gone out of my way to start shit with them, but -they- have come to me, looking for it, and more than once.

How can you support these kind of actions Grave?

I doubt that many people are 'goth to increase popularity'... since goth has never been all that popular.

LOL. Come to the states sometime, particularly the midwest. You'll see it.

Many young persons move through several stages of discovery, of self-identity. Who is to say that the youth who is a 'goth' today, and a skater tomorrow isn't genuine about both aspects?

In fact, my ex was a goth/skater... sometimes more of one, sometimes more of the other.

You have frequently missed the point I'm trying to drive home: if they do it because they truely want to, then fine, I can respect that. If they do it so the cool kids will hang around them, then no, I don't respect that.


If you are attacking based on conformity... on a 'uniform', then school children must really annoy you, right?

Not really, no.



I lived in the city of Leicester, in the UK.... not an especially large city... in a county of maybe 250,000 people. If you live in a rural backwater, perhaps you have been saved from the predations of the 'normal' people.

I'm not generalising all that much. I have known goths from many places, and many of them have been physically attacked for their 'goth-ness'. Usually by what we used to refer to as 'Townies', and are now referred to as "Chavs"... the 'lads' out for a night on the town, who decide to kick the shit out of some guy because he is wearing makeup.

Well, I live in the midwest USA in a city of 85,000 people. I have never once seen or heard about anyone getting beat up because of the clothes, jewelry, makeup, etc. that they wear. Just because incidents like this occur in your country does not mean that it is commonplace elsewhere.

Also - your 'friend' Pantera claims that he (I assume 'he') does exactly the same thing to goths at the 'mall'. Perhaps he is being less than truthful?

Again, refer to the point I made before about how the goths in Pantera's town start shit with him first. If one of my friends are being harrassed by anyone, goth or not, I support their right to resent them for it. I don't believe that they should be given 'special consideration' because they are goths. Perhaps you should come to terms with the fact that not everyone that is 'goth' is the victim. I myself have personally been surrounded and nearly beaten up by goth kids (happened during Halloween about 6 years ago. I was a block away from my house too).


I don't understand the question? What has it to do with social class? The people beating my friends down in the gutter, probably worked for the same company, in the same building. What do you mean 'concern yourself'? Perhaps you do not understand what I am saying... to some people (especially in groups) the mere SIGHT of a guy in makeup is sufficient motivation for some violence.

Obviously the situations in the UK and the US regarding goths are totally different. Perhaps I DON'T understand what you are saying, because where I live people don't get jumped for what they wear. Perhaps you don't understand what I'm saying because people where you live do get jumped for what they wear.

SO - are you saying goths should hide from the townies? That goths are somehow bringing this mindless violence on themselves, just by being 'goth'?

I haven't said nor implied that.

That is the same kind of logic that used to teach that a girl in a skirt WANTED to be raped.

The slippery slope argument won't work here, I'm sorry.



My problem?

Let me direct you back to Pantera's own words? "I thrive on kicking the shit out of the goth punks that lurk in the mall".

Perhaps I am misinterpreting that?

Maybe he meant he likes to give them kittens?

They start shit with him first, so I do support his right to feel hatred towards them regardless if they are goths or whatever. Being goth does not give you special exemption to not get your ass kicked if YOU yourself start something. This boils down to personal responsibility, and if a goth kid wants to start shit with Pantera, then I hope the punk gets what he has coming.


It isn't his 'opinion' about goths that causes me consternation.. it is his ACTING on his opinions. Hopefully, as he matures, he will learn to accept goths, and others he sees as 'posers' and less 'individual'.

Until that day, I disagree with his ACTIONS.



I haven't talked to Pantera ever before, as far as I know. Since I do not believe in the mindless perpetuation of hate, it is unlikely that I will debate with him again.

All I 'know' of Pantera - since I have never met him - is what he says online.

ANd, wht he said online is that he is a thug: "I thrive on kicking the shit out of the goth punks that lurk in the mall".

Allow me to quote an AIM log between Pantera and myself. His screen name has been changed to protect his identity.

AutoMagFrEeK: *sigh* let me ask you straight out bro, do you really waltz through the mall going on first strike rampages on goth kids?

Pantera: HAHAHAHAHA, no dude. I've fought with the fuckers a few times, but never once have I rushed in and smacked on it his pale, pasty face. Like I said, most of these posers are older than I am. 'Kids' is just the term that comes to mind when I think of them. They're immature little vandals who bother -everyone- who walks by. There is nothing remotely acceptable about these fucks.

So you support the actions of the goths Grave? You support them even though they are clearly the aggressors and have a habit of bothering everyone where Pantera lives? I believe Pantera has a right to defend himself and he has a right to resent those people for what they do. You are really putting forth the idea that these goths should be allowed to do whatever, completely free of consequence because they are goth. Sorry, doesn't work like that.



I also have friends of many different backgrounds, cultures and subcultures... and yet, it is not I who has made a point of targetting any group, is it?

Don't make the generalization that because your group is targeted where you live that they are targeted everywhere. Also don't make the generalization that because your group is targeted where you live that elsewhere people of the same group don't do the targeting themselves.

You say you "don't judge people based on their style" and then continue, "like you seem to be doing"... which has me confused.

What I meant was that I don't judge people period, but you seem to be judging me because I have an opinion that you disagree with. If you want people to respect you and your opinions, then maybe you need to start respecting the opinions of others even if you disagree with it.

You HAVE been judging people on being 'goth' and being 'posers', in your words. I haven't. Given that, I fail to see what you can have meant by "I don't judge people based on their style like you seem to be doing".

I believe that it is wrong for people to follow a certain trend because they think it will make them popular. Do I take it to their face and call them a fuckbag poser? No, I keep my comments and opinions to myself, even if they are a total poser. I don't single individual people out for being posers, but instead I make a general statement about my feelings on the matter.

I am not saying that anyone who isn't 'my kind' (whatever that is supposed to mean) is my enemy... but those who chose to perpetuate aggression and intolerance against me, JUST because THEY think I am a poser... or because they 'hate" goths... well, they are obviously not a boon to my existence.

What about people who are goths who perpetuate aggression and intolerance against non-goths like Pantera? You seem to be very vocal about people in the goth 'community' being the 'victim', but you have yet to denounce those in the goth 'community' that are the aggressors. I'm sort of amused by this double standard, that it is wrong for others to hate goths yet it is alright for goths to hate others.


Not my generalisation, though. You have chosen to support, and explain, Pantera's platform. Pantera expressly stated that he enacts violence on goths. You have sided with that manifesto.

He acts in self defense from the aggressors that happen to be goths. What more do I need to say?



I haven't amde any 'us and them' distinctions.

All I have said is: if you support Pantera's politics of hate, you are counter to my survival, and counter to my beliefs.

If you support the politics of hate from the goths where Pantera lives, then you are a counter to my survival, and a counter to my beliefs. Just because goths where you live are victimized doesn't mean that goths elsewhere don't victimize others. If you belive what I say is false, then then you are truely ignorant.

If you renounce Pantera's politics of violence, I do not categorise you as anything.

If you come to the realization that people in the 'goth community' can be and are aggressors, then I will have no problem with you. Saying that it is wrong for others to hate goths yet be indifferent when goths are the ones starting fights is sort of like saying.....it's wrong for white people to hate black people, yet it is alright for black people to hate white people. None of it is acceptable on any level regardless of the scenario, be it black/white, goth/non-goth, whatever.

However, I do support a person's right to defend themselves no matter which 'community' the aggressor belongs to. Pantera has stated that he has been the victim of the goths in his area, and I support his right to defend himself. Now, if Pantera had never been made a victim, then I would not support his actions against the goths where he lives. Simple as that.

I'm betting that the FIRST time you played paintball, you probably went with someone who was a more experienced player. Doesn't that make you the 'poser' in the 'paintball' crowd?

My first day I played against a guy who had been playing for a year or two. We had enough paint to play a few games back to back, so we did. He nailed me the first two times, but the time after that I got him good. I snuck around on him when he wasn't looked and got him point blank. Not bad for my first day, although I wouldn't doubt if people considered me a poser. But the difference is I took up paintball because it interested me, not because I wanted to brag about it and make people think I was cool.

Whether you believe it or not, there are people out there who do things because they want to be cool.


Believe it or not, we are not really THAT individual, as a species. Most of us chose some form of 'identity'. A football team we support, perhaps. I drink coke, not Pepsi... very few of us are entirely individual... personally - I consicder myself to be very individual, but I buy clothing from Hot Topic.. so I MUST be sharing SOME aspects with SOME other people.

Aye, but do you do it to impress others, or because that it truely who you are?



That's not what you said. You said:


and then, contradicted it with:



You set up your non-bragging, non-poser status.... and then, a mere couple of lines later, you were bragging about what a paintball machine you are...

No, you missed the point and took my words out of context. What I said was: I don't go around bragging about my skills. There are a lot of kids and people my age that think they are the shit and want everyone to know it. But the people who are at my skill level or better aren't like that, we don't need to go around bragging and talking about how badass we are, we let our actions on the field to our talking.

Most people who talk crap to me about how they can beat me usually end up losing when we play. Granted, there are guys who talk crap to me that can and have beaten me. There are assholes out there no matter where you go. But the funny thing is, one of the guys who regularly talks crap me was poking fun at my marker because it isn't electronic. I then told him 'Yeah right man, you know I can hit you with 1 shot from across the court'. He didn't say much after that, because he knows it's true. Hell, his younger brother who is at the same skill level as him has seen me in action and knew that what I said to his older brother was true.

Do I go around reminding people of it every chance I get? No, I am a humble person when it comes to myself and my abilities. If you want to take this example I am using and make it sound like I'm arrogant and bragging, feel free, but that is not the intent behind it.



Very few people do things for ONE motivation.

Most of those you see as not 'true' goths are probably PARTLY being 'goth' for the social value... a crowd to identify with. But they must ALSO have some 'goth' identity already, or they would have chosen a different group to 'hang' with.


To me the ones that only want to be goth for the social value will eventually move onto something else anyways. They'll fade out of the scene and move onto something else, and to me that is not a true goth. Since I was old enough to remember, I have always been myself and done my own thing regardless of the current trends. I've known goths who have been into the goth scene since we were little, and to me those people are the true goths.

People who become goth because it is trendy and want the attention are not true goths. I dated a girl who was (and this is 100% true) more of a 'prep' and girly and all one day, then the next day came to school with jet black hair, a black dress, and an upside down cross on her forehead with makeup. She did this only because she wanted to turn heads (and turn heads she did), and to me that is not a true goth. It's been awhile since I've seen her, but the last time I did she was back to her usual girly/preppy self. Was she a true goth in your opinion, or just a fairweather goth?

Wow. This has been blown way out of proportion.

When I said I 'thrived on kicking the shit' out of these kids, it was half in jest. I've fought with them, a number of times. Yet Grave has kind of steered it to where I'm pushing my, quote, 'politics of violence'.

This is not even remotely the case. While I -do- think most of these fools need a good sock in the teeth, I can't be bothered to do it until they finally push until I need to push back. It's not some epic battle of the gothic posers versus myself. It's more of a disdain on my part and, in my opinion, a desire for attention on theirs. These kids graffiti the walls of the mall, harass passersby, and generally make a nuisance of themselves. That alone causes me to dislike their presence intensely. I've said a number of times that my experience with 'gothic' people has been limited, but even in other cities, it seems to be repeated.

I've never gone out of my way to sock one of these kids, though I have been picked out a number of times and harassed. They seem to like me, for some reason. It's come to blows a couple of times, and a few others with my friends. I don't really dislike them for starting shit, but for doing it just to gain some kind of notoriety bothers me. 'Those kids in black over there? Yeah, with the boots. They're idiots....'

The attention grabbing of these kids is outrageous. They often are kicked out of the mall for stupid things like pissing in the plants or something equally assinine, but it doesn't end there. Rather than going peacefully they all seem to make an issue of it. 'You just hate me because I'm dark and twisted. I'm GOTHIC and I get opressed.' Obviously not even really that outraged, they're just pleased to be crying out against something and drawing the much coveted attention of strangers.

But, sometimes they remember how they're 'supposed' to act, since they're gothic, with the moping and the angst and all. Those days are the best for shopping, because they mostly just stand around and try to look sad. Problem with that is that noone notices how different you and all your cookie-cutter friends really are.

Thus ends my argument. I guess it turned from a gothic rant into a general rant against posers, so much the better. Hopefully I'll meet some solid gothic people, someday. But, so long as people like these continue to hide behind the half-assed facade of a group identity, I'll continue to criticize.

Im gonna have to say Hippies, they are funny, have a great take on life, and just want the better for the world. Goths piss me off and are scary.

Hippies also like better music, The Beatles, The Doors, The Greatful Dead, The Who, The Rolling Stones, etc.

Goths prefer heavy metal, death metal and goth rock. That stuff blows.
ugh, steriotypes.

I'd rather be a pussy (or hippy) than a faggy goth kid.

I happen to be in most respects a faggy goth hippy person, and I'm quite happy with it. Well, not so much faggy... and too much a part of the system as a high school teacher to really be anti-establishment like either group... but my heart is with both of them.

*snicker*



First - One would assume wrong. I'm a pretty big guy myself, 6'4", 240 or so. Most of these *kids are big as well, especially their 'leader' who is the biggest douche of them all and is larger than me by a fair sight. They strut about like the cocks of the walk, bothering people, vandalizing, and generally making asses of themselves. I've never gone out of my way to start shit with them, but -they- have come to me, looking for it, and more than once. So, do I need to thrash these punks everytime I go to the mall? No. Instead of picking fights with these morons, I simply unleash my gift of gab.

Why should I kick their asses when I could just as easily disassemble them with words? 99% of them know they're posers, and it terrifies them that someone might call their bullshit. Case in point:"My life consists of nothing but the macabre." ...Is that so? Care to elaborate? No? Care to explain exactly what 'macabre' means? Don't know that either? And how, if you have absolutely no clue what 'macabre' is aside from it's a word associated with horror movies and it 'sounds cool', can every day of your life be filled with it? No answer? What about your friends? They don't know either? I rest my case.

Second - Sure dude...

The problem I have with these kids is that instead of simply being themselves, they go out of their way to be as out there and off the wall as possible. It's like they're screaming "LOOK AT ME! LOOK! LOOK! LOOK! I'm wearing chainmail and leather! I -MUST- be extremely original, right?"

Wrong. I wear black clothes, myself. I also listen to Dimmu Borgir, Type-O, and a dozen other bands that are considered 'Gothic'. I'm interested in wicca, death, and the pale, sickening underbelly of what everyone else percieves as a 'good place to live'. I dislike the culture I live in{Texas, ugh}, and most of those around me. Does that mean I should dedicate myself to a lame counter-culture? I sure hope not because that is out of the question.

My real problem with these kids is NOT that they shop at Hot Topic, listen to depressing music, or wear makeup. Hell, I like the shirts at HT, I listen to some depressing music, and I've even been known to sport a spot of eyeliner to the club. The problem I have is that these kids refer to themselves as 'gothic' and go out of their way to make sure everyone knows it.

Are they truly that starved for attention that they feel the need to label themselves with a cheesy, played out stereotype? For myself, I would rather bask in obscurity than subscribe to some half-assed idea of a counter culture. Black clothes, makeup, and piercings don't make you original or unique. You already are unique, or you would be if you'd take that shit off and just be yourself. All that crap is just fashion. It doesn't even single you out anymore, becaust it's the same fashion that a million other fucks are sporting.

In closing I'll say that I have alot of friends who would probably be considered 'gothic' by sight. One in particular has been a 'goth' since before I heard the term, and yet, he's never given in to the crap that alot of kids seem to thrive on lately. He's himself, and that's enough. Instead of -trying- so hard to be original and noteworthy, he just is. That's him. The goth punks in question should learn from him.

Rather than relying on gaudy piercings, black makeup, and fishnet pantyhose to make him who he is, he simply dominates a scene by force of personality. He's one of the most original, sharp-minded people I've met in my life, and not one bit of him is store-bought or contrived.

We should be encouraging and thriving on our originality, rather than accepting lame stereotypes and running with them.

-Pants

{* The 'kids' I use above is just a term for immature fucks. Most of these punks are older than my 21.}

{

Fair enough....
Disclaimer: My opinion on 'goths' has been formed by the astounding, jaw-dropping amount of posers that I've met through the years. Alas, I have yet to meet a decent, discussion worthy person who refers to themself as 'Gothic'. Hopefully I'll meet one soon and gain some insight, here...}

/long winded rambling. Hopefully I didn't lapse into gibberish halfway through. Sorry for any glaring mistakes or typos. I'm too tired to spellcheck it...

yOu obviuosly have no idea what you are talking about. The real Goths, and this is in Australia mind you, are those interested in Gothic literature, architecture etc. Many seem to forget that there was a Gothic era where many real goths take their likes and dislikes from. Especially you. Goths and Punks are two different things. Goths keep to themselves, wear black, and myself being semi-goth, I don't in anyway appreciate your ignorance in the use of the word Wicca. It's a religious belief system that focuses on nature, and the love of all mankind. Except for people who are well, dickheads. Yes the posers need to be shot down, the feel sorry for me types, but before you go off insulting those who are truly Goth, how about you find one and get to know them.

I have a habit of getting into political arguments with hippies and making them cry. That they have a habit of being drunk or stone at the time might be relevant. I'm tired of hearing the phrase " I'm so stoned I don't know what I'm talking about." This is usually happen after a hippy interrupts a conversation not involving them.

Also goths can be well dressed. hippies well there's only so much one can do with tye-dye and corduroy

One - Colour beats black.
Two - Long hair beats make-up
Three - Hendrix is better than ... Everyone.

Has anyone ever been up to Cortez Island up in British Columbia? Well, there, they would say,
"Non-Hippies, or Goths?"
Basically, that is the coolest place around.

C'mon guys this is a thread on hippies vs. goths, not 'true' goths vs. 'poser' goths
It almost as bad as 'punks'
Hippies need to be sober more often and goths need to get out more.
What's the point of dwelling in depression?
If you enjoy dressing in black and wearing make-up, cool, but don't bag out the others who do

On another note, hippies, goths and metalheads should get together and destroy the 'pop' crap on radios

Wow. This has been blown way out of proportion.

When I said I 'thrived on kicking the shit' out of these kids, it was half in jest. I've fought with them, a number of times. Yet Grave has kind of steered it to where I'm pushing my, quote, 'politics of violence'.

This is not even remotely the case. While I -do- think most of these fools need a good sock in the teeth, I can't be bothered to do it until they finally push until I need to push back. It's not some epic battle of the gothic posers versus myself. It's more of a disdain on my part and, in my opinion, a desire for attention on theirs. These kids graffiti the walls of the mall, harass passersby, and generally make a nuisance of themselves. That alone causes me to dislike their presence intensely. I've said a number of times that my experience with 'gothic' people has been limited, but even in other cities, it seems to be repeated.

I've never gone out of my way to sock one of these kids, though I have been picked out a number of times and harassed. They seem to like me, for some reason. It's come to blows a couple of times, and a few others with my friends. I don't really dislike them for starting shit, but for doing it just to gain some kind of notoriety bothers me. 'Those kids in black over there? Yeah, with the boots. They're idiots....'

The attention grabbing of these kids is outrageous. They often are kicked out of the mall for stupid things like pissing in the plants or something equally assinine, but it doesn't end there. Rather than going peacefully they all seem to make an issue of it. 'You just hate me because I'm dark and twisted. I'm GOTHIC and I get opressed.' Obviously not even really that outraged, they're just pleased to be crying out against something and drawing the much coveted attention of strangers.

But, sometimes they remember how they're 'supposed' to act, since they're gothic, with the moping and the angst and all. Those days are the best for shopping, because they mostly just stand around and try to look sad. Problem with that is that noone notices how different you and all your cookie-cutter friends really are.

Thus ends my argument. I guess it turned from a gothic rant into a general rant against posers, so much the better. Hopefully I'll meet some solid gothic people, someday. But, so long as people like these continue to hide behind the half-assed facade of a group identity, I'll continue to criticize.

I don't think I 'steered' this anywhere. You made an opening statement where, with no explanations to the contrary, you expressed a prediliction for violence towards goths.

Having read THIS post... it seems you are not really dealing with goths at all, but with hooligans... who just happen to DRESS like goths in this locality.

Also, hinted at in one of your earlier posts, and expanded upon in this... you seem to be making it clear that you have only ever fought back in self-defence... a message CERTAINLY not implicit in your comments about 'thriving on kicking the shit' out of those kids.

If that is the case, fair dues.

I have been the victim of group violence, and I believe in hitting back.

I do not believe in the politics of hate that leads to a group of people terrorising another because they are different... be the victims goth, girl, gay... whatever.

It's just a matter of which of your posts has been closest to truth.

Goths=yum
Hippies=yum

Goths=yum
Hippies=yum

Peeches=yum. :)

personally, i prefer goths. they have a more mystical thing bout them. Plus they remind me of vampires and I have a HUGE fasination with vampires!!

Okay - I am going to try to keep this short.

Allow me to address all 3 of these points.

Perhaps you missed the part of Pantera's post where he said that the goths in his part of the US are the ones that start shit with him. Perhaps you also fail to realize that you are defending the aggressive party here, which are these goth kids. But neither of us live in Texas, so neither one of us truely knows what Pantera has experienced. Have you ever thought that maybe the goth kids where he lives are total assholes who like to start fights with him?


I didn't 'miss' that part of Pantera's post. That comes froma separate post which he made AFTER I commented on his aggression towards goths.

I have no real reason to believe that 'goths' are the aggressive party... since the FIRST post made it clear that Pantera enjoyed doing violence unto goths, and the second post could JUST be him trying to explain away his tactics.


How can you support these kind of actions Grave?


I don't support 'those' kind of actions.. from any faction.


LOL. Come to the states sometime, particularly the midwest. You'll see it.


I live in the US. I have spent time in quite a few states in my time, including Texas. I haven't seen the conditions that Pantera claims.


Well, I live in the midwest USA in a city of 85,000 people. I have never once seen or heard about anyone getting beat up because of the clothes, jewelry, makeup, etc. that they wear. Just because incidents like this occur in your country does not mean that it is commonplace elsewhere.


'My' country? And which country is 'my' country?

I find it hard to believe that a city of 85,000 people has "never once" had any form of hate crime based on something as shallow as appearance. It seems more likely that you just haven't seen it.


Again, refer to the point I made before about how the goths in Pantera's town start shit with him first. If one of my friends are being harrassed by anyone, goth or not, I support their right to resent them for it. I don't believe that they should be given 'special consideration' because they are goths. Perhaps you should come to terms with the fact that not everyone that is 'goth' is the victim. I myself have personally been surrounded and nearly beaten up by goth kids (happened during Halloween about 6 years ago. I was a block away from my house too).


It seems like back-pedalling. Pantera put on a 'hard' image first, and got called on it. He then 'backed down' on that assertion, and claimed he was the victim.

I have no real reason to believe he is the rough-house who beats-up on goths... except that he claimed it. I have no reason to believe the oppositi, except that he claimed it.


Obviously the situations in the UK and the US regarding goths are totally different. Perhaps I DON'T understand what you are saying, because where I live people don't get jumped for what they wear. Perhaps you don't understand what I'm saying because people where you live do get jumped for what they wear.


Actually, I have goth friends in Australia, the UK, the US, Canada... quite a spread... and, for the most part, they are pretty much alike.

The only big difference seems to be in attitudes TOWARDS goths. In the US, people seem to think that goths are automatically Wiccan and/or Satanists, and that goths automatically listen to "Black Metal". I HAVE met wiccan goths, and even a Satanist goth... and I have known one or two Black Metal goths... but they are hardly the mainstream.


I haven't said nor implied that.


You did imply it, when you said "Why can't you just go about your business and not even give them the time of day? I would think that by doing so they'd be less inclined to start something with you". You are implying that the reason I (or another goth) might get into trouble, is because we are somehow not self-effacing enough.


The slippery slope argument won't work here, I'm sorry.


Not a slippery slope, a comparison.

I somehow 'deserve' to get beaten up, by being a guy in makeup... compared to the 'old logic' about girls 'deserving' rape.

I don't buy that kind of excuse, no matter who is the victim.

A 'slippery slope argument' would have been if I claimed that attacking goths LEADS to raping girls....


They start shit with him first, so I do support his right to feel hatred towards them regardless if they are goths or whatever. Being goth does not give you special exemption to not get your ass kicked if YOU yourself start something. This boils down to personal responsibility, and if a goth kid wants to start shit with Pantera, then I hope the punk gets what he has coming.


Personally, I don't think you can 'justify' hate. I 'hate' no person.

If someone really did physically attack this Pantera fellow first, good job on defending himself... but that isn't what his initial post CLAIMED.


Allow me to quote an AIM log between Pantera and myself. His screen name has been changed to protect his identity.


Not sure it really helps your case. "There is nothing remotely acceptable about these fucks" is probably not the GREASTEST statement of peaceful intent this side of Jesus.


So you support the actions of the goths Grave? You support them even though they are clearly the aggressors and have a habit of bothering everyone where Pantera lives? I believe Pantera has a right to defend himself and he has a right to resent those people for what they do. You are really putting forth the idea that these goths should be allowed to do whatever, completely free of consequence because they are goth. Sorry, doesn't work like that.


I support agression from nobody, except in self-defence... and I have made NO comments to the contrary.

If Pantera really is the victim, he hasn't made a very good case for it... and his initial post becomes incomprehensible.


Don't make the generalization that because your group is targeted where you live that they are targeted everywhere. Also don't make the generalization that because your group is targeted where you live that elsewhere people of the same group don't do the targeting themselves.


I haven't been 'everywhere', but I HAVE been 'around'. Goths do seem to be victims on a fairly universal scale.


What I meant was that I don't judge people period, but you seem to be judging me because I have an opinion that you disagree with. If you want people to respect you and your opinions, then maybe you need to start respecting the opinions of others even if you disagree with it.


I don't want you to 'respect my opinions'. I don't care if you respect my opinions or not. I wasn't arguing with anyone's 'opinion'. I was arguing AGAINST the agressive posturing of Pantera's first post... and your apparent support for it.


What about people who are goths who perpetuate aggression and intolerance against non-goths like Pantera? You seem to be very vocal about people in the goth 'community' being the 'victim', but you have yet to denounce those in the goth 'community' that are the aggressors. I'm sort of amused by this double standard, that it is wrong for others to hate goths yet it is alright for goths to hate others.


There is no double standard. I have never claimed to support 'goth aggression', and I wouldn't condone it. I haven't actually seen any evidence of it, either.


He acts in self defense from the aggressors that happen to be goths. What more do I need to say?


As I said to him... there are hooligans the world around. These ones just seem to look like goths... if, in fact, what Pantera is NOW saying, is true.


If you support the politics of hate from the goths where Pantera lives, then you are a counter to my survival, and a counter to my beliefs. Just because goths where you live are victimized doesn't mean that goths elsewhere don't victimize others. If you belive what I say is false, then then you are truely ignorant.


That sounds so familiar... but again, I have never condoned goth-aggression.


Aye, but do you do it to impress others, or because that it truely who you are?


I shop at Hot Topic because it is the only store in the state that sells things like PVC trenchcoats.

Well, I would be catagorized as the skater type as I look like one, though I don't skate. I listen to heavy metal AND The Beatles. I am attracted to goths and hippies, though I give an edge to goths, as they don't seem to join PETA as much and stuff like that. Also they are more libertarian minded than hippies. Hippies seem to be commune minded.