NationStates Jolt Archive

There's already post on military recruiting, but the main purpose of this thread is to share my horrible experiences with the U.S. military. Posting this in the other thread would be rather off-topic.

I just got off the phone with the Navy. I'd originally decided to join, but I've decided to move to Britain and join the Royal Navy instead, for political, economic, and social reasons, and so, I can't stay with the Navy. Legally, according to the Center on Conscience and War (a non-profit organization out of D.C. I'd contacted), I'm not held accountable until bootcamp. So, they've been stalking me for weeks now, trying to fool me into just going to bootcamp. (In some cases, they've told guys that if they're quitting, they at least just need to go to bootcamp and "tell them" they're quitting. But once you're there, you're scewed). About a week and a half ago, my recruiter left a message on my answering machine, telling me repeatedly to "be a man." Today, someone called. I picked up the phone and they asked for William. I asked who it was and what they wanted. The guy, who I didn't know, said it was the Navy.

He asked me, "What's up?"

I kept trying to tell him I had to go, but he kept telling me to wait and hold on.

So, finally, I told him, "Look. I got a 96 on the ASVAB, and I'm a psychology major. So, any mind games you're planning, it's not going to work."

And he replied, "What? What mind games? What's with the hostility?" Then I heard him mutter, "It's William Young!", and I heard a few people in the background muttering, with my recruiter saying, "Let me see it!"

He grabbed the phone and I immediately told him I'd made my decision, and I wasn't obligated to explain anything to him, and that I knew the law. Because I knew that, whatever my given reason was, he was going to try to debate over it. That's not what I wanted. And he said, "No, no, it's okay. Don't worry, man. We already discharged you. We put you down for being gay."

I had to laugh, and said, "Hahaha. You think I'm a..."

Well, you get the idea. Not only did he lie to me about the 'discharge' part (I was never even in to begin with), but I'm highly skeptical that he can just make up bullshit that I'm gay.

I was originally going to join the U.S. Army. But after I'd asked the army recruiter for specific statistics about soldiers deployed to Iraq, not only did he attack my patriotism and call me a coward, but he insulted my mother as well, who served the Navy for 30 years and now has Parkinson's disease.

I met the army recruiter while at Wal-Mart, and he gave me his card. I ended up going to his office, and walked in, telling him my mother, who was also in the Navy, was waiting in the car. And then I told him that the number one thing on my mind was my chance of going to Iraq, and that I wanted specific, verifiable statistics of their deployment. He replied, "Well, I can't really give you that information. But frankly, I don't really need you. I get plenty of patriotic, young men and women that come in here, to do their duty for their country, and defend their freedom. Personally, from what you've said, I don't think you'd be appropriate for any branch of the military service. I just don't know why your mother isn't in here--if she's afraid to discuss these issues."

I told him, "My mother has Parkinson's, and she's in the car, resting."

He said, "Oh, oh, sorry."

I wanted to curse at him, but I didn't want to make a scene or get thrown out. I told him I was interested in joining the Navy instead, and that's when I first met my Navy recruiter, who walked in and also happens to be the son of one of my mother's old friends. Later, me and the army recruiter argued a few times. I tried to explain to him that the Army and Navy have the same benefits, and that if I get the same benefits in each, but have a greater chance of dying in one, then I obviously wouldn't choose the most dangerous option. Because my goal, like most people who join the military, is not "duty" or "patriotism", but college money. The benefits are why they join. If there were no benefits that recruiters didn't constantly shove down your throat, then no one would join. Once, I walked by, and the army recruiter mockingly asked me to come in and explain to their office why I joined the Navy instead of the Army (he'd repeatedly called me a coward, before that, and was trying to ridicule me). It was rather rude of me to say this, but I said, "It's better to live for your country than die for it", and walked out.

Once, the army recruiter was talking about there are different "spectrums" in the military, while I told him they all rely on eachother, that none is more important than another, even if they're more dangerous.

My experience with the Navy recruiters was not much better. I'd originally been told that I'd recieve "cash assistance." Because I'd gotten a 96 on the ASVAB, I could apply to almost any field in the Navy, including the advanced paygrade fields (starting out, from a slightly higher rank). In fact, the only field I wouldn't have been able to start in, according to my ASVAB, was nuclear. Even then, they were going to give me a trigonometry test that would've allowed me to do that, but when they saw my math grades, they changed their minds. If I'd demanded the test and passed it (which I'm sure I could have), I still probably would've been able to make it in the Nuclear field. So, settling for AECF (Advanced Electronics and Computers Field) in DEP (Delayed-Entry Program), which are both just recruiting programs. DEP just means you don't immediately leave for bootcamp, because you're in college or have some kind of obligation. AECF is just a general field they put you in, where it's not an actual job, or even an actual "rate", but a general field they put you in, based upon your rank and ability after leaving bootcamp. Because Nuclear, AECF, and SECF are the top fields for starting out at (for enlisted), they all guarantee long training schools though, and they pay fairly well.

Well, because of this, they also were supposed to have me in what's called the "cash assistance" program, where I'd be recieving college money, though I hadn't even gone to bootcamp yet. My recruiter originally told me it'd be put in right after signing the contract, in Washington D.C.. Well, when I got to the office, where they do a check-up and you sign the contract, what also bothered me is how I was rushed. (I almost wonder if this was planned). Because when I'd been given the contract, the recruiter said that they were going to stop swearing people in, soon, and to just read the contract quickly and sign it. I told him, repeatedly, that I wanted to read all of it, and he just kept telling me to hurry up, and come on. Well, I read it, although rather quickly, then signed it and was unofficially sworn in (the "official" swearing in happens after bootcamp, so it means nothing--just a tactic to trick veterans with kids, into telling their children that they're held liable, since they were sworn in). Well, the fact that they'd rush me through such a life-changing document also offends me.

After I signed the contract, my recruiter's demeanor totally changed, though I hadn't noticed it until weeks later. Whereas, before, they're totally attentive and treat you like a God, after signing the contract, you're "just like everyone else." He also told me that they'd have to put me in for the cash assistance, and later said that I might not be approved. Weeks and months went by, my mother's in terrible debt, and I'm focusing on school, to where I wouldn't be able to hold a job, as well as having my cat die and girlfriend leave me, which contributed to me really just not wanting to work.

So, it was a rough time. We asked the recruiter, every week, if the money was coming. He kept saying yes. For months, he said yes. But he just said that I was approved, but they just needed the budget to come through. One chief said it would be put through by about February (I signed the contract in about August, where they said it'd be put through a few weeks, remember). February came around, and they were still "waiting." Finally, my mother, a friend of her's, and I, all called the recruiting office. A chief, whose name we don't know, claimed that the budget was put through and that I'd be recieving money in a few weeks. That was a lie. A couple of weeks later, I asked my recruiter. He said that he didn't know what I was talking about, asked me who the chief was, and then said that the whole program had been cancelled. What I find disturbing of all, though, is that only a week or two prior to that, I remember hearing him talking to the group, and saying to one recruit, "Oh. And you're recieving full pay now!"

I'd considered calling other recruiting offices, and asking about cash assistance (pretending to be interested in joining the military), to see if he was lying. But I never got around to it. I'm fairly certain he was lying to me, though, the entire time, of whether I was eligible, whether he put me through, about the budget, or at least about it being "cancelled." Because then I'd have a legal case against the Navy, for outright lying to me, with three witnesses, me, my mother, and her friend, all claiming the same. The fact that my mother is a Navy veteran adds to her credibility.

The last straw came, really, when one chief I knew there told me that there was going to be a field trip to a Navy ship, where they'd take us aboard and give us a tour. That was rather exciting, I thought. But the next week, I asked him, and he said that the spots had all filled up, but that he was planning his own tour, on a much smaller trip. I asked him when I should call him, and he said, "No. I'll call you." He never called.

I'd really like to tell my Navy recruiter these reasons for why I've left, with them lying to me, repeatedly, and running such a half-assed operation, but I don't want to give them the satisfaction and I'm sure that they'd just insult me further, and possibly even hang up on me (to encourage me to come down there, like a fish on a hook).

But how I've been treated by military recruiters in America is a large part of what has contributed to my anti-Americanism. Now, I know that term angers a lot of people, but from what you've seen of my situation, isn't it reasonable?! I mean, how despicable can you be? To lie to young kids, so that they can be killed in a war they don't expect, insulting my mother, a disabled Navy veteran, constantly leading me on about this imaginary money I'll recieve, and then calling me gay when I'm fed up with it?

Plenty of soldiers deserve to be spat upon. I could write pages, as to how the U.S. military uses the same psychological tactics that terrorists and cults use, to gain membership and enforce discipline, such as peer-pressure, outright lies, sleep\food deprivation, chanting, appeal to patriotism, appeal to religion, appeal to pride, appeal to masculinity, appeal to emotion, and personal attacks. But, from what I've explained here, it should seem rather obvious.

A friend of mine is joining the army now. He told me that his recruiter is extremely nice to him and has taken him out to eat, several times (my friend hasn't signed the contract yet). I told my friend he's going to go to Iraq, and he said that he wasn't, because he got a 60-something on the ASVAB, repeating verbatim some nonsense explanation the recruiter gave him (something about how he was in a certain "bracket"), and that even though he got a 60-something on the ASVAB, that he wasn't going to Iraq, and was going to work in intelligence. After I explained the bullshit to him, he still seemed rather "starry-eyed", but then also said he didn't care if he had to go to Iraq or not. I don't really have the heart to tell my friend that he's stupid. On one hand, I think he'll be okay and deal with Iraq fine and there's probably nothing I can say to change his mind, but on the other hand, what am I going to do? Tell him that he got an incredibly shitty score, that he'll end up being an MP or in infantry, only to have his recruiter cleverly prove me wrong? No. While war and national defense are necessary, the U.S. military's unethical recruiting practices are not. The way it works is, "tell recruits anything they want to hear to get them to join, without getting the military sued", and the recruits that are tricked by recruiters, into thinking they aren't going to war or that they'll have a great job, are labeled disloyal cowards. The truth is, these guys are doing the same thing that people escaping cults and terrorist groups are doing. They were lied to, and when they found out the truth, they wanted to get out. The difference between cults and the military (whether it's a terrorist military or the U.S.) is that the military puts you in prison for leaving.

How can they decieve you into signing a contract, then jail you, when you realize you were lied to? It's outright evil. Currently, recruiters aren't supposed to tell lies, but stretching the truth, hiding the truth, and "little white lies" are okay, because they can get away with them, legally.

Wow. That is s.th. I always suspected but never heard first hand!

Too bad you can't get your college money from s.wh. else - you sound like a very reasonable person and I'd hate to see you end up wasted for a cause you don't, cannot & should not support.

Take care, may you make your dreams come true and give your mom a hug ;)

A proverb: "Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious."

These guys treated you like shit. And you never insult one's mother...I'm surprised you didn't beat the living crap out of these guys.

Personally, I've recieved recruitment letters from the Marines and the Navy. I merely trashed the Navy letter. But I was in a particular bad mood when I got the Marine letter...so I ate it.

Dude, the recruiter was joking with you. You can't be discharged unless you actually in. The idea you may have actually taken him seriously when he said you'd been discharged for being gay, makes me question your psychology background.

These guys treated you like shit. And you never insult one's mother...I'm surprised you didn't beat the living crap out of these guys.
Yes, that is s.th. I forgot to complement you on, Xes Laro.

...when I got the Marine letter...so I ate it. Hooyah! (Oh wait, that's the navy seals...)

I took the ASVAB toward the end of high school. Score somewhere in the high 90's, I don't remember exactly. I do remember that recruiters called me for about four years. Since, at that time it was my intention to finish college and then try for OCS, preferably in the Marines, I turned them down.
They were polite and not very pushy.
I went in and spoke to a Marine recruiter after college. By that time I had developed Crohns disease but I thought I would still try. He was friendly and polite, told me there wasn't a chance of getting in (pretty much screwed my entire life plan which had been in existence since I was in elementary school).

I don't think the it is correct to judge the entire recruiting system because you had a bad experience. There are good people in every system and bad people in every system.

I went in and spoke to a Marine recruiter after college. By that time I had developed Crohns disease but I thought I would still try. He was friendly and polite, told me there wasn't a chance of getting in (pretty much screwed my entire life plan which had been in existence since I was in elementary school).

The thing about Crohns is that it is chronic, and you take a SHITLOAD of medicine on a regular basis.

They don't wan't a guy like that on the front.

Xes Largo... some questions...

where you sworn in?
Did you sign the enlistment contract?
Did you read the enlistment contract before you signed it?
Did you get a DD214 or certificate of discharge?

I'm sorry you've had such problems. I havn't had anything like that. On the phone, they've always been polite. I was looking toward the navy, finally decided I dont have good enough grades to get into annapolis. They called to give me more info, and when I told them I wasnt considering the navy anymore, they weren't rude at all. They just made sure I wasnt interested(with a simple question), and then hung up.

I will be joining the national guard this summer(boot camp), and going through the delayed training program. If they skirt me on benefits, though, I will be out before im in.

The thing about Crohns is that it is chronic, and you take a SHITLOAD of medicine on a regular basis.

They don't wan't a guy like that on the front.

yeah, I know. I'm wasn't put out because of it, stuff happens.

These days I am on no medication whatsoever. I take suppliments and relax as much as possible and I feel great. I know it can come back but for about two years now, no probs.

do you expect us to read all of that?

Dude, the recruiter was joking with you. You can't be discharged unless you actually in. The idea you may have actually taken him seriously when he said you'd been discharged for being gay, makes me question your psychology background.
I know he was being serious, because he was pissed off and he repeated it twice. I ended up telling him to fuck off, then hung up on him, while he was still talking.

Xes Largo... some questions...

where you sworn in?
Did you sign the enlistment contract?
Did you read the enlistment contract before you signed it?
Did you get a DD214 or certificate of discharge?
1. Unofficially, with three other people.

2. Yes.

3. Yes, but quickly.

4. No.

Don't worry, I've already covered this with the Center on Conscience and War.
http://www.nisbco.org/

I was "sworn in", but that's just a retarded unofficial ceremony they added, because it makes recruits feel an actual false sense of duty. Plus, if they change their minds and they tell other people in the Navy (or their parents), that they were "sworn in", then they say that they're held liable, legally. They aren't. Only until you get to bootcamp are you held liable. Even then, you can get out of it, by being crazy, or claiming conscientious objection, or homosexuality. Really, only after you've been officially sworn in, at the end of bootcamp, in uniform with a large group of people and a proper ceremony are you held legally accountable. Once you get to bootcamp, though, you still can't leave until they kick you out, though.

I'm sorry you've had such problems. I havn't had anything like that. On the phone, they've always been polite. I was looking toward the navy, finally decided I dont have good enough grades to get into annapolis. They called to give me more info, and when I told them I wasnt considering the navy anymore, they weren't rude at all. They just made sure I wasnt interested(with a simple question), and then hung up.

I will be joining the national guard this summer(boot camp), and going through the delayed training program. If they skirt me on benefits, though, I will be out before im in.
You do know that if we invade another nation, the national guard and reserves are always the first to go. Been that way for awhile now.

You do know that if we invade another nation, the national guard and reserves are always the first to go. Been that way for awhile now.
It depends on the size of the war. And the messed up thing as that's only true, because people in the guard and reserves are more "expendable." They aren't as skilled, and they don't have anywhere near as many benefits. In fact, many people in the National Guard and Reserves were angry, because they fought in combat, but didn't recieve the full benefits that other veterans of active duty recieved.

I mean, think about it. Who would you want to go first? The guy signed up for a 2-year contract, or the guy signed up for life?

Also, this is unrelated, but in a Navy magazine I'd read at the recruiting office, they're estimating that roughly 1\3 of all the American-Iraqi war veterans are going to seek treatment for post-traumatic stress syndrome. Their scientists are trying to get approval to start testing illegal drugs, to treat it.

I was originally going to join the U.S. Army.

And you got a 96 on that test?

Hrmmm...something isn't right here. Anyone dumb enough to join the military does not score that high.

Dude, the recruiter was joking with you. You can't be discharged unless you actually in. The idea you may have actually taken him seriously when he said you'd been discharged for being gay, makes me question your psychology background.

How do you know? Are you the recruiter? No, I didn't think so. There's no reason to insult someone for being taken aback by someone saying something so untrue it's ludicrous. I'd like to see how you react if people began to say you were gay.

Actually, being gay isn't a legal, military reason to deny someone the chance to be in any branches of service. Yeah, it can be punishing to be gay and be in the armed forces, but they can't deny you entrance based on it, it's against the law. Also, if they falsely did put down that you were gay, you could sue for libel regardless of whether it's true or not. How do I know that? I asked my recruiter, because I'm gay.

Xes Laro, I'm so sorry you had such a horrible experience with that particular set of recruiters, but they aren't all like that. My recruiter, who I've known for more than three years has been kind, courteous, and answered all my questions fully and as completely as he could, including my questions about homosexuals in the military.

It depends on the size of the war. And the messed up thing as that's only true, because people in the guard and reserves are more "expendable." They aren't as skilled, and they don't have anywhere near as many benefits. In fact, many people in the National Guard and Reserves were angry, because they fought in combat, but didn't recieve the full benefits that other veterans of active duty recieved.

I mean, think about it. Who would you want to go first? The guy signed up for a 2-year contract, or the guy signed up for life?

Also, this is unrelated, but in a Navy magazine I'd read at the recruiting office, they're estimating that roughly 1\3 of all the American-Iraqi war veterans are going to seek treatment for post-traumatic stress syndrome. Their scientists are trying to get approval to start testing illegal drugs, to treat it.
that and the fact guardsmen and reservists are basically cheaper to replace than us regular troops.
For comparison purposes:
It takes 500 dollars to replace a guardsman
but it takes 25,000 to replace a regular army soldier

By that time I had developed Crohns disease...
As crazy as it may sound - have you ever tried ground incense? All the medication that goes along with Crohns sometimes has more side-effects than doing any good. Buying real incense (in Germany you can get it in any well-stocked pharmacy), grinding it and taking it as capsules has worked wonders in many cases - although doctors prefer s.th. that they can actually sell to you...

@ Nirvana Temples: You should - makes an interesting read.

You do know that if we invade another nation, the national guard and reserves are always the first to go. Been that way for awhile now.

Do you have any evidence of that? Because that makes little sense. The regular military are the first ones to go, then the national guard and reserves are the first non-regulars to go.

There are 1800 california national guardsmen in iraq, about 20% of our forces. I doubt I will get called up, but even if I do, im not that worried about it.

I've known people who have had trouble with recruiters too.

Personally I never have, and I seem to have passed the age where they are interested in me. Yay!

As crazy as it may sound - have you ever tried ground incense? All the medication that goes along with Crohns sometimes has more side-effects than doing any good. Buying real incense (in Germany you can get it in any well-stocked pharmacy), grinding it and taking it as capsules has worked wonders in many cases - although doctors prefer s.th. that they can actually sell to you...

@ Nirvana Temples: You should - makes an interesting read.

Thanks for the advice. Luckily right now I don't have to take any medication and am feeling good. I had never heard about ground incense though.
Nirvana Temples.

How do you know? Are you the recruiter? No, I didn't think so. There's no reason to insult someone for being taken aback by someone saying something so untrue it's ludicrous. I'd like to see how you react if people began to say you were gay.

Actually, being gay isn't a legal, military reason to deny someone the chance to be in any branches of service. Yeah, it can be punishing to be gay and be in the armed forces, but they can't deny you entrance based on it, it's against the law. Also, if they falsely did put down that you were gay, you could sue for libel regardless of whether it's true or not. How do I know that? I asked my recruiter, because I'm gay.

Xes Laro, I'm so sorry you had such a horrible experience with that particular set of recruiters, but they aren't all like that. My recruiter, who I've known for more than three years has been kind, courteous, and answered all my questions fully and as completely as he could, including my questions about homosexuals in the military.
Eh lady I'm in the military and I there are a few people in my unit who were, or are recruiters. Recruiters don't make that kind of stuff up about people and for you to say they do is slanderous.
As for being gay being a legal reason to deny someone a chance to serve, actually it is. Don't ask don't tell never changed that. All it says is if you don't tell me I won't ask and we leave it at that. Yes you can be denied entry in the military if you go to the recruiting station and tell them you are gay. The equal access laws in the civilian world don't apply to the military. The military has its own laws.
If your recruiter told you that, did he tell that if your unit finds out you are gay you can be kicked out for it. It happens all the time.

Recruiters today have a difficult job, with a dangerous war going on. And their superiors aren't understanding when they have no results. Doesn't excuse dirty dealing, but it does sort of explain it.


Personally, I agree with what the Army recruiter told you. You don't belong in the military. If you are risking your life for a little bit of college money, you should apply for govt loans or something else. You don't belong in a volunteer organization where people's lives depend on you doing your job.

I served years in the Army, and I had mostly good experiances. While my recruiter didn't tell me everything, he told me no lies. I respect him for that.

No soldier deserves to be spit on though. And anyone who would spit on a soldier deserves to be killed. I would crush your windpipe if you spit on me or any of my brothers in arms. Soldiers risk their lives, not because they want to, but because they have to in order to ensure that you can live in a free world. Where you can worry about college instead of how you are going to eat, or what future the government has already decided you are going to have.

Also, your case is worthless. The recruiter could have lied to you the entire time and if it wasn't on paper, you didn't get it. If you were rushed through a life-changing contract, that's your own stupid fault. If you took them on their word rather than what was on paper, that was your own stupid fault. Welcome to real life. Not everyone is a nice guy. And even soldiers have their share of @$$holes within their ranks. Do you expect any salesman to tell you the entire truth about something? Would you rush through buying a car and sign a contract before checking out the fine print? No? Then don't do it with a military contract either.

For what its worth, I don't believe ANY one receives a cash signing bonus before they go to bootcamp....you were right there. Once you go to bootcamp there is no backing out. But at the same time, you have to go to boot camp to get any of the rewards you were promised. Assuming they were in your contract. If they weren't, you don't have anything.

Might want to read something next time before you sign it. And you might want to have a little respect for those in a uniform who are willing to die for your freedom.

Do you have any evidence of that? Because that makes little sense. The regular military are the first ones to go, then the national guard and reserves are the first non-regulars to go.

There are 1800 california national guardsmen in iraq, about 20% of our forces. I doubt I will get called up, but even if I do, im not that worried about it.
A lot of people in my chain of command. And the other thing is that the regular army is already spread the heck out. The only people left are guardsman and reservists.
And as earlier stated, its cheaper to send the guard first.

It just isn't worth it; maybe you should just not bother with either option. They treat their people like swines in /any/ military!

If it comes to the point where things are so bad you would even consider joining to make ends meet, perhaps you shouldn't be looking to the army and navy.

I look to Smith and Wesson. Almost have enough for one...it'll be liscenced to dad, but I'll just be using it once.

And you got a 96 on that test?

Hrmmm...something isn't right here. Anyone dumb enough to join the military does not score that high.

my son, a marine currently stationed in Okinawa, got a 98 on his test

Xes Laro, if you didn't go to boot camp, and didn't get the final swearing in, then you were not enlisted in the United States military. However, if you got the final swearing in at the receiving station (the big recruiting center, not the local one) and didn't go, then they would have discharged you for failure to adapt, which is considered a general discharge (not bad conduct, but not a good conduct either)... this would disqualify you from any further service in the United States Armed Forces.

Bonuses are not paid until a recruit has completed boot camp, along with any promised ranks.. its to ensure that the US government gets its moneys worth from you BEFORE it spends additional money on you. No point in paying a bonus to a recruit who doesn't complete initial training and is discharged.

It just isn't worth it; maybe you should just not bother with either option. They treat their people like swines in /any/ military!

If it comes to the point where things are so bad you would even consider joining to make ends meet, perhaps you shouldn't be looking to the army and navy.

I look to Smith and Wesson. Almost have enough for one...it'll be liscenced to dad, but I'll just be using it once.
They don't treat me like swine.

And you got a 96 on that test?

Hrmmm...something isn't right here. Anyone dumb enough to join the military does not score that high.
Haha. I actually swear that the test makes no sense. I guessed a bunch of math questions (ran out of time) and missed the last couple. And I didn't understand the section on hardware tools, either (wtf is a sautering iron? a piston? it's a fucking basketball player, isn't it?). But I did extremely well on the English part, and aced the section on reading code which, was supposedly the hardest section.

There was another guy I was with, who had a high school education, asked me what I got. I asked him what he got, and he said some ridiculously low number, like 13 or something. And I thought, "How is that possible?!"

Even with Bush and Kerry, people claim Bush is smarter than Kerry, because Bush did extremely well on the test to become an officer in the Air Force, but Kerry did horrible on the test to become an officer in the Navy. (Now, obviously, the person who transferred these over to I.Q. scores is an imbecile, but the tests are somewhat comparable, as they're both tests to become officers, and the Air Force test should actually even be more difficult, because, no offense army brats or marines, but their branch is more intellectually challenging).

I got one single call.

and i let him know, in no uncertain terms, that i was not going to join the military, no matter which branch, no matter how much they paid me.

perhaps we can find ways to avoid stupid, wasteful wars.

like..oh, i don't know...

not pissing off the rest of the planet?

that sounds about right.


'defending my freedoms'

what bullshit.

tell me which of my freedoms the iraqis took from me.

Eh lady I'm in the military and I there are a few people in my unit who were, or are recruiters.

Please don't patronize me. I come from an Air Force family, my brother went into the Army, and I, too, plan to go into the Air Force as well.

Recruiters don't make that kind of stuff up about people and for you to say they do is slanderous.

You need to open a law book. First off, printed mischaracterizations are called libel. Slander is when you do it by word of mouth. In this case, it's neither, because making a general statement is not libel. You need specific names, incidents and other verifable facts for it to be considered legal.

As for being gay being a legal reason to deny someone a chance to serve, actually it is. Don't ask don't tell never changed that. All it says is if you don't tell me I won't ask and we leave it at that. Yes you can be denied entry in the military if you go to the recruiting station and tell them you are gay.

My recruiter clearly showed me in the UCMJ that a homosexual can not be punished in any way, shape or form for being out. If they engage in fraternization or other inappropriate relationships, yes, they can be punished but so can heterosexuals that engage in the same behavior. Therefore, under the UCMJ, you cannot deny entrance for being gay nor can you punish someone for being gay.

The equal access laws in the civilian world don't apply to the military. The military has its own laws.

Until you sign the contracts, civilian law is uphold in any cases or legal action take between a recruiter and a civilian.

If your recruiter told you that, did he tell that if your unit finds out you are gay you can be kicked out for it. It happens all the time.

Yes, however, he painted a widely differnet picture. Most homosexuals in the military are not "kicked out," as you suggest, most are scared out and given the option to not say a word for an honorable discharge. Most are beaten up, tortured verbally and physically by thier fellow soldiers and in some cases taken advantage of for being homosexual. This also happens to heterosexuals who fellow soliders and C/Os suspect are homosexual, even if they aren't. In both cases, the military goes hush hush to save face. This was told to me by my recruiter and several of his fellow recruiters in their office.

that and the fact guardsmen and reservists are basically cheaper to replace than us regular troops.
For comparison purposes:
It takes 500 dollars to replace a guardsman
but it takes 250,000 to replace a regular army soldier

Um... I think you're off a bit. Can you site something to prove such a gulf?

Drafting is stupid!
1)It goes against my beliefs
2)It is kinda' takin' away my rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness
I think I will refuse to sign up.....but I am still thinking about it..

Drafting is stupid!
1)It goes against my beliefs
2)It is kinda' takin' away my rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness
I think I will refuse to sign up.....but I am still thinking about it..

Drafting? What drafting?
Are you refering to signing up for the draft when you turn 18?

Xas Laro, this is shocking! I'm so upset about this...and I'm not even American. The deception and downright lies, the disfucntion, beurocracy, and hostility are all nightmarish.
Crikey, just get the hell out of the military, you don't need to put up with this shit. Any orgaization that treats its members this way doesn't deserve your support.

Um... I think you're off a bit. Can you site something to prove such a gulf?
He's talking about the Army's Life Insurance policy, which gives 250,000 dollars to your family if you get yourself blown up. I don't know if the Guard has the same thing.

Please don't patronize me. I come from an Air Force family, my brother went into the Army, and I, too, plan to go into the Air Force as well.



You need to open a law book. First off, printed mischaracterizations are called libel. Slander is when you do it by word of mouth. In this case, it's neither, because making a general statement is not libel. You need specific names, incidents and other verifable facts for it to be considered legal.



My recruiter clearly showed me in the UCMJ that a homosexual can not be punished in any way, shape or form for being out. If they engage in fraternization or other inappropriate relationships, yes, they can be punished but so can heterosexuals that engage in the same behavior. Therefore, under the UCMJ, you cannot deny entrance for being gay nor can you punish someone for being gay.



Until you sign the contracts, civilian law is uphold in any cases or legal action take between a recruiter and a civilian.



Yes, however, he painted a widely differnet picture. Most homosexuals in the military are not "kicked out," as you suggest, most are scared out and given the option to not say a word for an honorable discharge. Most are beaten up, tortured verbally and physically by thier fellow soldiers and in some cases taken advantage of for being homosexual. This also happens to heterosexuals who fellow soliders and C/Os suspect are homosexual, even if they aren't. In both cases, the military goes hush hush to save face. This was told to me by my recruiter and several of his fellow recruiters in their office.

You can believe that if you want to. You also have to remember is that a recruiters primary job is to do almost everything they can to convince you to sign the dotted line.
People have been told by recruiters one thing only to find out the opposite was true as soon as they showed up at boot camp. The most common being that recruiters tell some kid that drill sergeants aren't allowed to yell at you. Then the kid gets to boot camp and the next thing you know the drill sergeants are yelling and the rules say they can. It happens all the time.

He's talking about the Army's Life Insurance policy, which gives 250,000 dollars to your family if you get yourself blown up. I don't know if the Guard has the same thing.

That's not what I'd call a replacement cost... :(

A lot of people in my chain of command. And the other thing is that the regular army is already spread the heck out. The only people left are guardsman and reservists.
And as earlier stated, its cheaper to send the guard first.

You still have no proof. What wars/conflicts were the national guard sent in first?

ww2? Korea? Vietnam? Somalia? Bosnia/kosovo? Afghanistan? Iraq? Im getting no's on all of those. Can you show me one conflict where the first substantial force was guardsmen or reserves?

speaking of evil recruiting:

http://news4colorado.com/localnews/local_story_118125046.html

How far will U.S. Army recruiters go to bring young men and women into their ranks? An Arvada West High School senior recently decided to find out. The following is CBS4 Investigator Rick Sallinger's report.

ARVADA, Colo. (CBS4) -- Last month the U.S. Army failed to meet its goal of 6,800 new troops.

Aware of this trend, David McSwane, a local high school student, decided he wanted to find out to what extent some recruiters would go to sign up soldiers who were not up to grade.

McSwane, 17, is actually just the kind of teenager the military would like. He's a high school journalist and honor student at Arvada West High School. But McSwane decided he wanted to see "how far the Army would go during a war to get one more solider."

McSwane contacted his local army recruiting office in Golden with a scenario he created. He told a recruiter that he was a dropout and didn't have a high school diploma.

"No problem," the recruiter explained. He suggested that McSwane create a fake diploma from a non-existent school.

McSwane recorded the recruiter saying that on the phone.

"It can be like Faith Hill Baptist School or something -- whatever you choose," the recruiter said.

As instructed, McSwane went on the computer to a Web site and for $200 arranged to have a phony diploma created that certified him as a graduate of Faith Hill Baptist High School, the very name the recruiter suggested. It came complete with a fake grade transcript.

"What was your reaction to them encouraging you to get a phony diploma?" CBS4's Rick Sallinger asked.

"I was shocked," McSwane said. "I'm sitting there looking at a poster that says 'Integrity, Honor, Respect' and he is telling me to lie."

McSwane also pretended he had a drug problem when he spoke with the recruiter.

The Army does not accept enlistees with drug problems.

"I have a problem with drugs," McSwane said, referring to the conversation he had with the recruiter. "I can't kick the habit ... just marijuana."

"[The recruiter] said 'Not a problem,' just take this detox ... he said he would pay half of it ... told me where to go."

Drug testers CBS4 contacted insist it doesn't work, but the recruiter claimed in another recorded phone conversation that taking "detoxification capsules and liquid" would help McSwane pass the required test.

"The two times I had the guys use it, it has worked both times," the recruiter said in the recorded conversation. "We didn't have to worry about anything."

Then the original recruiter was transferred and another recruiter, Sgt. Tim Pickel, picked up the ball.

A friend of McSwane shot videotape as Pickel drove McSwane to a store where he purchased the so-called detox kit.

CBS4 then went to the Army recruiting office and confronted Sgt. Pickel. CBS4 played him a conversation McSwane had with Pickel on the phone. The transcript of that conversation follows:

Pickel: When you said about the one problem that you had, what does it consist of?
McSwane: "Marijuana."
Pickel: Oh, OK so nothing major?
McSwane: Yeah, he said he would take me down to get that stuff, I mean I have no idea what it is, so you would have to show me. Is that a problem?
Pickel: No, not at all.

Pickel quickly referred CBS4 to his superiors.

CBS4 then played the tapes and showed the video to Lt. Col. Jeffrey Brodeur, who heads army recruiting for the region.

"Let me sum up all of this with one word: unacceptable, completely unacceptable," Brodeur said.

Hearing recruiters talking about phony diplomas and ways to beat drug tests left Brodeur more than a little disturbed.

"Let me tell you something sir, I'm a soldier and have been a soldier for 20 years," Brodeur said. "This violates trust, it violates integrity, it violates honor and it violates duty."

The army says it is conducting a full investigation. Brodeur said there is no pressure or punishment for recruiters if quotas are not met. They are, however, rewarded when their goals are surpassed.

I got one single call.

and i let him know, in no uncertain terms, that i was not going to join the military, no matter which branch, no matter how much they paid me.

perhaps we can find ways to avoid stupid, wasteful wars.

like..oh, i don't know...

not pissing off the rest of the planet?

that sounds about right.


'defending my freedoms'

what bullshit.

tell me which of my freedoms the iraqis took from me.

the iraqis set us up the bomb so george bush said all your base are belong to us and therefore we lost our freedoms from a diff pres cuz wartime pres's are popular. stupid iraqis. how could they do that to us?

That's not what I'd call a replacement cost... :(
actually I mistyped an extra zero in there.

You still have no proof. What wars/conflicts were the national guard sent in first?

ww2? Korea? Vietnam? Somalia? Bosnia/kosovo? Afghanistan? Iraq? Im getting no's on all of those. Can you show me one conflict where the first substantial force was guardsmen or reserves?
Operation Desert Storm
Iraqi Freedom
Afghanistan (reservists and guardsmen pretty much went at the same time as regular army)
Of course you don't have to take my word, just sign the document and you will find out for yourself.

You can believe that if you want to. You also have to remember is that a recruiters primary job is to do almost everything they can to convince you to sign the dotted line.

(You didn't answer a single point I made.)

Anyways... I don't need to believe anything, I've seen what the UCMJ says. I know what it says, and I know what the military can and cannot do to me for being a homosexual.

If homosexuality is so taboo in the military, and "don't ask don't tell" truly is the policy, why would a recruiter want a young woman who scored a 92 on her ASVAB who also happens to like other girls in the USAF? Wouldn't that go against everything they're taught? Wouldn't that also be a violation of their duty to weed out potential "problems?" If homosexuals are automatically crossed off the list if they walk into a recruiter's office and say they're gay, how come I'm still on the list? How come I'm going into the Air Force?

As I said, my recruiter very clearly went over this with me, as it was my primary concern about going into the Air Force, a tradition I want to follow in my father's footsteps. I'm not about to believe your word over the word of my recruiter when I've seen very clearly up close and personal what the UCMJ says in small print.

Why didn't you go for an ROTC scholarship?

do you expect us to read all of that?

does he expect us to believe that crap? :rolleyes: I considered joining the army and the navy when I was just getting out of college and I talked to a number or people involved with recruiting, none of them were that rude. I think maybe this guy just had a bad experience, if he is telling the truth ion the first place.

speaking of evil recruiting:

http://news4colorado.com/localnews/local_story_118125046.html

How far will U.S. Army recruiters go to bring young men and women into their ranks? An Arvada West High School senior recently decided to find out. The following is CBS4 Investigator Rick Sallinger's report.

ARVADA, Colo. (CBS4) -- Last month the U.S. Army failed to meet its goal of 6,800 new troops.

Aware of this trend, David McSwane, a local high school student, decided he wanted to find out to what extent some recruiters would go to sign up soldiers who were not up to grade.

McSwane, 17, is actually just the kind of teenager the military would like. He's a high school journalist and honor student at Arvada West High School. But McSwane decided he wanted to see "how far the Army would go during a war to get one more solider."

McSwane contacted his local army recruiting office in Golden with a scenario he created. He told a recruiter that he was a dropout and didn't have a high school diploma.

"No problem," the recruiter explained. He suggested that McSwane create a fake diploma from a non-existent school.

McSwane recorded the recruiter saying that on the phone.

"It can be like Faith Hill Baptist School or something -- whatever you choose," the recruiter said.

As instructed, McSwane went on the computer to a Web site and for $200 arranged to have a phony diploma created that certified him as a graduate of Faith Hill Baptist High School, the very name the recruiter suggested. It came complete with a fake grade transcript.

"What was your reaction to them encouraging you to get a phony diploma?" CBS4's Rick Sallinger asked.

"I was shocked," McSwane said. "I'm sitting there looking at a poster that says 'Integrity, Honor, Respect' and he is telling me to lie."

McSwane also pretended he had a drug problem when he spoke with the recruiter.

The Army does not accept enlistees with drug problems.

"I have a problem with drugs," McSwane said, referring to the conversation he had with the recruiter. "I can't kick the habit ... just marijuana."

"[The recruiter] said 'Not a problem,' just take this detox ... he said he would pay half of it ... told me where to go."

Drug testers CBS4 contacted insist it doesn't work, but the recruiter claimed in another recorded phone conversation that taking "detoxification capsules and liquid" would help McSwane pass the required test.

"The two times I had the guys use it, it has worked both times," the recruiter said in the recorded conversation. "We didn't have to worry about anything."

Then the original recruiter was transferred and another recruiter, Sgt. Tim Pickel, picked up the ball.

A friend of McSwane shot videotape as Pickel drove McSwane to a store where he purchased the so-called detox kit.

CBS4 then went to the Army recruiting office and confronted Sgt. Pickel. CBS4 played him a conversation McSwane had with Pickel on the phone. The transcript of that conversation follows:

Pickel: When you said about the one problem that you had, what does it consist of?
McSwane: "Marijuana."
Pickel: Oh, OK so nothing major?
McSwane: Yeah, he said he would take me down to get that stuff, I mean I have no idea what it is, so you would have to show me. Is that a problem?
Pickel: No, not at all.

Pickel quickly referred CBS4 to his superiors.

CBS4 then played the tapes and showed the video to Lt. Col. Jeffrey Brodeur, who heads army recruiting for the region.

"Let me sum up all of this with one word: unacceptable, completely unacceptable," Brodeur said.

Hearing recruiters talking about phony diplomas and ways to beat drug tests left Brodeur more than a little disturbed.

"Let me tell you something sir, I'm a soldier and have been a soldier for 20 years," Brodeur said. "This violates trust, it violates integrity, it violates honor and it violates duty."

The army says it is conducting a full investigation. Brodeur said there is no pressure or punishment for recruiters if quotas are not met. They are, however, rewarded when their goals are surpassed.
bullshit, recruiters are under intense pressure. My coworker just graduated recruiting school, and he hadn't even left for his station when he was already being pressured to get 150 people to sign up before he left. There was no way in hell he was going to be able to do that.

Drafting? What drafting?
Are you refering to signing up for the draft when you turn 18?
yes

Why didn't you go for an ROTC scholarship?

(I'm not sure if you're talking to me or someone else, so, I'll answer for me.)

The only ROTC program in my area is for the Army. Since my father is a disabled/veteran, I also receive Veteran's Affairs benefits which pay for more than 3/4 of my tuition and living expenses. Along with the rest of my finanical aid package, I didn't need to go into the ROTC, especially with a branch I had no interest in serving in. I considered submitting an application to the USAF Academy, but other circumstances came up relating to my father's help, so, I chose to go to a local school in case anything should happen to him.

(You didn't answer a single point I made.)

Anyways... I don't need to believe anything, I've seen what the UCMJ says. I know what it says, and I know what the military can and cannot do to me for being a homosexual.

If homosexuality is so taboo in the military, and "don't ask don't tell" truly is the policy, why would a recruiter want a young woman who scored a 92 on her ASVAB who also happens to like other girls in the USAF? Wouldn't that go against everything they're taught? Wouldn't that also be a violation of their duty to weed out potential "problems?" If homosexuals are automatically crossed off the list if they walk into a recruiter's office and say they're gay, how come I'm still on the list? How come I'm going into the Air Force?

As I said, my recruiter very clearly went over this with me, as it was my primary concern about going into the Air Force, a tradition I want to follow in my father's footsteps. I'm not about to believe your word over the word of my recruiter when I've seen very clearly up close and personal what the UCMJ says in small print.

He has a qouta he has to meet. The usual procedure for recruiters is to let almost everyone in and let the MEP's, boot camp, AIT, or whoever filter out the gays, the mentals, and others who are not supposed to be in.

Personally, I've recieved recruitment letters from the Marines and the Navy. I merely trashed the Navy letter. But I was in a particular bad mood when I got the Marine letter...so I ate it.

haha, so did i.

If you are in it for college money, ROTC is the way to go. Depending on the funding, you will serve 4-6 years as an officer post college.

Advice from a military man: Get everything in writing.

yes

ah.

He has a qouta he has to meet. The usual procedure for recruiters is to let almost everyone in and let the MEP's, boot camp, AIT, or whoever filter out the gays, the mentals, and others who are not supposed to be in.

I understand he has a quota to meet, but considering that if he knowingly let's a homosexual into the armed services, and something happens because he knows he/she is a homosexual he is also legally, under military law, liable for such an incident.

First off, when I go to bootcamp, I'm not going to be parading around the fact that I am gay. I am there to do a job. Learn, live and strengthen myself for my service to my country. I am not there to be gay, I'm there to be a solider; they couldn't weed me out, personally, if they tried. ;)

No soldier deserves to be spit on though. And anyone who would spit on a soldier deserves to be killed. I would crush your windpipe if you spit on me or any of my brothers in arms. Soldiers risk their lives, not because they want to, but because they have to in order to ensure that you can live in a free world. Where you can worry about college instead of how you are going to eat, or what future the government has already decided you are going to have.
You contradict yourself. First you say that the military is all volunteer, then you state that soldiers risk their lives because they have to.

In any case, while I have the utmost respect for the men and women in uniform, I also question this unquestioning and, at times, unreasoning automatic demand that civilians should automtically fall over themselves in giving and granting favors and honor to the troops. Not pointing fingers at the soldiers themselves (They're usually too busy), but hardly a week goes by when I do not hear how Starbucks refused to give free coffee or Target free whatevers as if this somehow makes these corperations in cahoots with whomever we're fighting.

I question it because other professions work just as hard to protect your life and property at the risk of their own lives (police and fire departments), work longer hours to secure your continued existance (doctors and nurses), and secure the continuation of the ideals and traditions of this country (teachers, and with teachers for about the same pay ;) ). And yet all of these professions, you don't have email campains and screaming politicans when McDonalds fails to donate to a school, or when Dunkin Donuts does not provide freebes to police officers.

Also I would ask you, do you feel no soldiers whatsoever deserves to be disrespected? Even those who have partisapated in crimes, either war (My Lai Massacre, the current prision abuse scandal) or peace (the Marines who rapped a elementary school girl in Japan)?

I guess my point being that the men and women who are fighting have done many things, and have given a lot. Undoubtably most are deserving of respect and admiration. However, not blanket, automatic respect just because they are wearing a uniform. Besides, it's really hard to respect the moral officer who the closest to combat they've seen was when they acidently stapled a transfer request to themselves.

actually I mistyped an extra zero in there.

Ah.

And that's a death benefit. That's not a replacement cost. And since most of the military that are in jobs/support (MPs, techs, etc.) are reservists, the issue is a little muddied.

Um... What an agressive thread. The reality is that if you haven't ever been in the military, you do not have an informed opinion on the subject. Fact, Recruiters are trained by the military to lie, and will do ANYTHING to make their quota. Fact, the National Guard and Reserves were some of the first units on the ground during this war. Fact, nothing about the military is easy, and anyone that tells you otherwise doesn't know what the hell they're talking about. Fact, once you are in the military all those promises that the recruiter made will disappear, and they can send you anywhere, at anytime, and make you do anything, you will no longer have a say in who or what you are. Don't get the idea in your head that there is a kinder gentler military out there, it just means that they found new and different ways to brainwash you that don't require physical abuse. How do I know? I just got out of the US Army last June after 7 honorable years. I was stationed 4 different places, and well decorated. I worked in the highest levels of the US Army Training and Doctrine Command, and was a part of many of the changes that the Army has made in it's training practices. I also helped prepare soldiers for the Corporal Recruiter program (AKA the basics of lying to impressionable kids). I hope this helps.

"Because my goal, like most people who join the military, is not "duty" or "patriotism", but college money."

Bow down before your allmighty dollar. "Education" is nonsense.

Um... What an agressive thread.

lol. It's always like that around these parts. :p

(I'm not sure if you're talking to me or someone else, so, I'll answer for me.)

The only ROTC program in my area is for the Army. Since my father is a disabled/veteran, I also receive Veteran's Affairs benefits which pay for more than 3/4 of my tuition and living expenses. Along with the rest of my finanical aid package, I didn't need to go into the ROTC, especially with a branch I had no interest in serving in. I considered submitting an application to the USAF Academy, but other circumstances came up relating to my father's help, so, I chose to go to a local school in case anything should happen to him.

That answers the question. Don't let these dumb recruiters push you around. They work based on volume. If they can push you around, they will. Don't sign until you have all answers.

Advice: If you join, you will be in a war. It will either be in Iraq, Iran, North Korea, or Afganistan, but you'll always have a job. Death is not the only shity thing while deployed. Being away from loved ones sucks the worst.

i can believe that he is telling the truth. I was interested in teh armed forces for a short time.

I have met very polite recruiters who respected my disinterest (once I decided their branch wasnt right for me) right away and said nothing more, but I have also run into a couple of them that played little mind games and made demeaning comments when they saw how I wasnt interested, and I would caracterize some of my mistreatment as harrassment.

Those of you who think someone can do no wrong just because they are in the military so he cannot possibly be telling the truth really need to take your blinders off. military credentials does not a saint make. Just because you haven't experienced it doesnt make it untrue. He obviously has a willingness to be in the military so I wouldnt assume that he is trying to make the military look bad.

Um... What an agressive thread. The reality is that if you haven't ever been in the military, you do not have an informed opinion on the subject. Fact, Recruiters are trained by the military to lie, and will do ANYTHING to make their quota. Fact, the National Guard and Reserves were some of the first units on the ground during this war. Fact, nothing about the military is easy, and anyone that tells you otherwise doesn't know what the hell they're talking about. Fact, once you are in the military all those promises that the recruiter made will disappear, and they can send you anywhere, at anytime, and make you do anything, you will no longer have a say in who or what you are. Don't get the idea in your head that there is a kinder gentler military out there, it just means that they found new and different ways to brainwash you that don't require physical abuse. How do I know? I just got out of the US Army last June after 7 honorable years. I was stationed 4 different places, and well decorated. I worked in the highest levels of the US Army Training and Doctrine Command, and was a part of many of the changes that the Army has made in it's training practices. I helped prepare soldiers for the Corporal Recruiter program (AKA the basics of lying to impressionable kids). I hope this helps.
Well, It actually made me want to despise the millitary, note I am not referring to the soldiers, God bless their souls, but to the actual institution, more....So thanks for making my stance more stable. DOwn With DRAFTS!!(and recruiting)

I understand he has a quota to meet, but considering that if he knowingly let's a homosexual into the armed services, and something happens because he knows he/she is a homosexual he is also legally, under military law, liable for such an incident.

First off, when I go to bootcamp, I'm not going to be parading around the fact that I am gay. I am there to do a job. Learn, live and strengthen myself for my service to my country. I am not there to be gay, I'm there to be a solider; they couldn't weed me out, personally, if they tried. ;)
so does that mean you would be willing to get on with every male soldier that wants to get it on with you? It happens a lot in AIT and in permanent party.

Being in the Navy, I am pissed by this. please, send me the information on this Navy recruiter. He needs to spend some time back in the fleet. Name, recruiting center, the works.

norbus42@hotmail.com

Xes Laro, I'm so sorry you had such a horrible experience with that particular set of recruiters, but they aren't all like that. My recruiter, who I've known for more than three years has been kind, courteous, and answered all my questions fully and as completely as he could, including my questions about homosexuals in the military.
Now, tell me this: Would he have treated you like that, if you decided not to join? Highly unlikely. A great deal of it has to do with the pressure recruiters are put upon. But only the people who have the ability to decieve teenagers, or get a great thrill out of it, take the job. That's why, in my experience, they're slippery shits, because it helps them do the job.

Eh lady I'm in the military and I there are a few people in my unit who were, or are recruiters. Recruiters don't make that kind of stuff up about people and for you to say they do is slanderous.
As for being gay being a legal reason to deny someone a chance to serve, actually it is. Don't ask don't tell never changed that. All it says is if you don't tell me I won't ask and we leave it at that. Yes you can be denied entry in the military if you go to the recruiting station and tell them you are gay. The equal access laws in the civilian world don't apply to the military. The military has its own laws.
The Uniform Code of Military Justice. And I've read all of it. In fact, it was another major reason I'd dropped out. But no, she's partially right. I think you just misunderstand what she's saying. The military claims it isn't discriminating against gays, because gays can join. But you can't be openly gay and join the military. There are people who are obviously gay. Guys who do the wrist-flop, have the lisp, and are more queer than sailors on a submarine, but they're still serving. And no one can ask (but you can't tell). You know this, obviously, but I'm just clarifying.. You can be gay, even obviously gay, but you can't be kissing guys, dressing in drag, or talking about being gay.

But yes, I'd also dropped out of the military, because of how expansive the UCMJ is. There's a clause in military law which says basically that they can prosecute you for any reason, if it's not covered under the rest of the UCMJ. THAT basically means that your civil rights are totally gone, when joining the military. My contract also elaborated on the fact that even after the contract is up, they can call me back, until I'm like 50. (This happened to my ex-girlfriend's father, actually, too). Plus, the section on "displaying disloyalty" bothered me as well. Because I could never, in the military, always talk about how great the current administration is. I was even bothered by the fact that Bush's picture was framed in the recruiting office, though I completely understand the reason ("commander-in-chief", I know).

Might want to read something next time before you sign it. And you might want to have a little respect for those in a uniform who are willing to die for your freedom.[/QUOTE]
Hey, buddy, recruiters and armchair generals aren't willing to die for my freedom. In fact, after I'd told my mother what the army recruiter said to me, she said I should've asked him whose dick he sucked to get such a cushy, recruiting job.

Bonuses are not paid until a recruit has completed boot camp, along with any promised ranks.. its to ensure that the US government gets its moneys worth from you BEFORE it spends additional money on you. No point in paying a bonus to a recruit who doesn't complete initial training and is discharged.
The programs vary from branch to branch, although they all give about the same. I'm not even sure if the Marines have a Delayed-Entry Program, as I'd think they'd be shipped off to bootcamp rather quickly. Although the stereotype of marines doesn't always fit, it often does, and as one marine told me, "being a rifleman comes first, your rate comes second." In the Navy, they have the "cash assistance" program, where if you're signed up for one of the most lucrative fields, you're eligible for "cash assistance", being put under active-duty, status with a rank of E1 (bumped after to E2 or E3 after bootcamp), and being paid, as a active-duty, and money for college. I know they paid guys in DEP program, because they said it a few times, and I was supposed to recieve it as well. This wasn't just your typical fib. Several of them said it, openly, as well as the chief there, and to my mother over the phone.

Drafting is stupid!
1)It goes against my beliefs
2)It is kinda' takin' away my rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness
I think I will refuse to sign up.....but I am still thinking about it..
SIGN UP TO BE A CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR, NOW!

A lot of people don't know this, but you can prevent being drafted in a war, by filing with the government for "conscientious objector" status.

http://www.nisbco.org/

As for anyone who is eventually going to call me a "coward." I come from a military family as well. My father was in the British army (either infantry or artillery, can't remember) and a corpsman and medical photographer in the American Navy, and retired as an HM2. My mother was a laboratory technician in the Navy and retired as an HM1, almost making it to Chief Petty Officer, but someone else beat her for the job, just before she had to retire.

I also have to ask, "Does being willing to fight in war make you brave?"

The author, Bill Maher, said not too long ago that modern war is cowardly. The days of the noble samurai, following the code of Bushido, and the brave knight following the code of chivalry, have been replaced by grunts, tricked into joining, so they can either be bullet-catchers, or pilot mass-killing machines, murdering hundreds of people (including innocents) with the push of a button, while sometimes becoming just as evil as the bad guys, as we'd seen from Abu-Graib. While I fully agree that marines, corpsman, infantry, and many active special forces divisions have to face "real" work, not office work or fixing radios, and it does require a great deal of determination to do that and a certain brotherhood, and state-of-mind, there is nothing inherently noble about it, because they are not always fighting for freedom, or for justice. They are fighting for what the U.S. goverment claims is freedom and justice. Perception and reality are not one and the same. The U.S. government is no exception.

And a huge majority of people who see combat go back with post-traumatic stress syndrome. Having irrational fear, that "the enemy" is still around them, trying to kill them. Waking up with nightmares, of murdering countless faceless people. Walking along roads, surrounded by dead, rotting bodies. As I said, they estimate that 1\3 of our war veterans will be treated for it. As my philosophy professor who fought in Vietnam said, the only people who glorify war are those who have never seen it. After saying that, he usually smiles, and says, "Ah, the smell of human intestines, in the morning." So, playing the 'bravery' card is childish, and it means nothing.

And that is exactly the reason why I am a conscious objector and served my community as a paramedic!

As for anyone who is eventually going to call me a "coward." I come from a military family as well. My father was in the British army (either infantry or artillery, can't remember) and a corpsman and medical photographer in the American Navy, and retired as an HM2. My mother was a laboratory technician in the Navy and retired as an HM1, almost making it to Chief Petty Officer, but someone else beat her for the job, just before she had to retire.
So what you're saying is that you're a coward while your family has courageous people in it?

the USMC does have a delayed entry program... my son signed up in Oct 2003, and entered Boot Camp in August 04, and is now in Okinawa

CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR:

There will be a draft and this conscientious shit will not work because the world is going to have a nice glow in a few years. Good luck trying to buck the draft when a nuke hits California! The shows going to be cool on the news.

Oh yeah, the college money. Um... Good luck with that. You may get the GI Bill when you get out, if all of your paperwork is in order. Then you will have to actually start school and go through the process of dealing with your school, and the Department of Veterans Affairs to try to get your money started, once it has been started, granted, it helps, but you're already so far behind because the application and processing took so damn long that you were spending money you didn't have. Then there's active duty tuition assistance, which varies service to service, but in the Army it had a cap of $4,500 per FISCAL year. This means that you had $4,500 to pay for your classes from October to October. Anyone that has ever gone to college knows that this really isn't enough, plus most of the time you're working, which can take you away from your schooling at any time, and it doesn't cover books. I laugh at people that say they are joining for the college money. In reality, you are joining for THE IDEA of the college money, an idea that may, or may not, become a reality. Do your research before you even think about entertaining a recruiter, because they can suck you in with sweet talk and promises before you really know what's going on. For the guys, if you've dealt with a recruiter, you now know what a young woman feels like on a Saturday night at the club.

Dude, that sucks alot. That officially lowers my respect for the military. This combined with Abu Gharib and Guantanamo, the military is at an all time low. Sounds more like Attilla's Huns than an honourable, freedom-defending fighting force.

I'm at about the same age, off to college soon, and I'm definitely not joining the military. Still, I've been called like 7 times, and recieved countless emails and real mail from the military. If that blitz is not enough, turn on any television and one sees those damn commercials - "I think I've found what I want to do with my life..." *US Army*. Oh, and I remember one time where I had to argue with a guy on the phone - i didn't want to be rude, so I spoke with him - he was marines i think, anyhoo, I told him I was not going to join because I was a pacifist, I said "No, sir. I'm a pacifist. I don't believe in violence." His response was - "You think the Marines are violent?"(Ignorance is Strength and 2 + 2 = 5, right?) That left me stunned for like 5 seconds, and then he threatened to hang up on me because I was wasting HIS time. That was the end of that conversation.

so does that mean you would be willing to get on with every male soldier that wants to get it on with you? It happens a lot in AIT and in permanent party.

No. See, that's called the power of choice. If a male soldier wants to try and get on with me, I say no, and he doesn't stop I am protected under military law. Harassment, fraternization, you name it. If people want to call me a dyke behind my back because of it, so be it, but there's nothing else they can do about it but speculate.

I might also point out that it's very ignorant of you to ask a question of such nature. It has nothing to do with being gay whatsoever, because it happens to heterosexual women, too, it's a universal issue.

Now, tell me this: Would he have treated you like that, if you decided not to join?

I have no idea, because I wasn't put in that situation, I do know people who have decided not to go in after the inquiry and I have never heard a story quite like yours. I'm just speaking from my own experience when I responded.

SIGN UP TO BE A CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR, NOW!

A lot of people don't know this, but you can prevent being drafted in a war, by filing with the government for "conscientious objector" status.

http://www.nisbco.org/

As for anyone who is eventually going to call me a "coward." I come from a military family as well. My father was in the British army (either infantry or artillery, can't remember) and a corpsman and medical photographer in the American Navy, and retired as an HM2. My mother was a laboratory technician in the Navy and retired as an HM1, almost making it to Chief Petty Officer, but someone else beat her for the job, just before she had to retire.

I also have to ask, "Does being willing to fight in war make you brave?"

The author, Bill Maher, said not too long ago that modern war is cowardly. The days of the noble samurai, following the code of Bushido, and the brave knight following the code of chivalry, have been replaced by grunts, tricked into joining, so they can either be bullet-catchers, or pilot mass-killing machines, murdering hundreds of people (including innocents) with the push of a button, while sometimes becoming just as evil as the bad guys, as we'd seen from Abu-Graib. While I fully agree that marines, corpsman, infantry, and many active special forces divisions have to face "real" work, not office work or fixing radios, and it does require a great deal of determination to do that and a certain brotherhood, and state-of-mind, there is nothing inherently noble about it, because they are not always fighting for freedom, or for justice. They are fighting for what the U.S. goverment claims is freedom and justice. Perception and reality are not one and the same. The U.S. government is no exception.

And a huge majority of people who see combat go back with post-traumatic stress syndrome. Having irrational fear, that "the enemy" is still around them, trying to kill them. Waking up with nightmares, of murdering countless faceless people. Walking along roads, surrounded by dead, rotting bodies. As I said, they estimate that 1\3 of our war veterans will be treated for it. As my philosophy professor who fought in Vietnam said, the only people who glorify war are those who have never seen it. After saying that, he usually smiles, and says, "Ah, the smell of human intestines, in the morning." So, playing the 'bravery' card is childish, and it means nothing.
*APPLAUSE* :D

WAR :mp5: :sniper:
:gundge:
WAR<

Dude, that sucks alot. That officially lowers my respect for the military. This combined with Abu Gharib and Guantanamo, the military is at an all time low. Sounds more like Attilla's Huns than an honourable, freedom-defending fighting force.

I'm at about the same age, off to college soon, and I'm definitely not joining the military. Still, I've been called like 7 times, and recieved countless emails and real mail from the military. If that blitz is not enough, turn on any television and one sees those damn commercials - "I think I've found what I want to do with my life..." *US Army*. Oh, and I remember one time where I had to argue with a guy on the phone - i didn't want to be rude, so I spoke with him - he was marines i think, anyhoo, I told him I was not going to join because I was a pacifist, I said "No, sir. I'm a pacifist. I don't believe in violence." His response was - "You think the Marines are violent?"(Ignorance is Strength and 2 + 2 = 5, right?) That left me stunned for like 5 seconds, and then he threatened to hang up on me because I was wasting HIS time. That was the end of that conversation.


The purpose of the military is to kill people and break things. Does not fight for freedom. The freedom bit is just propaganda for the tax payer.

Oddly enough, anyone know the eyesight requirements to be classified fit for active service (eg draftable/able to join)?

The author, Bill Maher, said not too long ago that modern war is cowardly. The days of the noble samurai, following the code of Bushido, and the brave knight following the code of chivalry, have been replaced by grunts, tricked into joining, so they can either be bullet-catchers, or pilot mass-killing machines, murdering hundreds of people (including innocents) with the push of a button, while sometimes becoming just as evil as the bad guys, as we'd seen from Abu-Graib.
I'd also point out that Bill Maher was wrong about the knights and samurai. Sure, they would treat one another with a strict code of honor, but you can bet most of them would think nothing of hacking down a civilian or grunt who got in their way. The only nobility in war is in the intentions of the soldiers.

Oddly enough, anyone know the eyesight requirements to be classified fit for active service (eg draftable/able to join)?

If it can be corrected, your in. Enjoy boot camp!

Don't judge the entire military just because of a couple stupid recruiters.

I recently joined the US Air Force after looking at the AF, Navy, and Marines. Every recruiter I talked to was real nice and honest. In the end, I just decided that I liked the Air Force the best. So several weeks later I went down to MEPS, took the ASVAB, got a 96, and enlisted!

It is said that the hardest job in the military is recruiting. They are under tremendous pressure for impossible deadlines, and while this does not excuse the behavior, some of them crack. Make no mistake, recruiting is a HARD job. Unfortunatly, you just happened to meet a couple of not so good ones.

I believe right now the DoD has a policy that allows anyone to drop from the DEP. But just because you can, it doesn't mean you should. If you do, you have just wasted much of the recruiters valuable time, further increasing his pressure. You have made an obligation to the Military and have broken it. While this may be legal, it's not necessarily right. But I guess that depends on the situation.

I'd also point out that Bill Maher was wrong about the knights and samurai. Sure, they would treat one another with a strict code of honor, but you can bet most of them would think nothing of hacking down a civilian or grunt who got in their way. The only nobility in war is in the intentions of the soldiers.
TH White talks a lot about that in The Once and Future King
My ultimate fave book!!!!

The purpose of the military is to kill people and break things. Does not fight for freedom. The freedom bit is just propaganda for the tax payer.

Well, to be fair, when I said my respect for the military, this is where I stood -
1 - being a mutant cross between Ghandi and Jane Fonda
10 - being GW infused with the blood and ideas of every redneck in America

I was about a 3. Now I'm like a 2.5 or a 2.

But what you said is usually true, especially in 20th and now 21st century wars.

Oddly enough, anyone know the eyesight requirements to be classified fit for active service (eg draftable/able to join)?
I'm 200 over 20 and been in for 3 and half years. But there are certain MOS's that bad eyesight that will disqualify you from.

Eyesight must be correctable to 20/20 for the Army, uncorrected 20/20 or better to fly in the Air Force, I don't know about the others.

I'm 200 over 20 and been in for 3 and half years. But there are certain MOS's that bad eyesight that will disqualify you from.


Probably some having to do with flying.

Although, these days, with the amount of flyboys lighting up their allies, they might need to have their eyes checked.

I'm 200 over 20 and been in for 3 and half years. But there are certain MOS's that bad eyesight that will disqualify you from.
Eh, mines up there. Dunno what it is as far as the 20/20 scale (can't distern the big e at all), but as far as prescription goes, its -10.25 now, I think. Correctable, but it's to the point that without glasses I'm literally blind

I'm frankly not very surprised at the behavior of the recruiters - they are at the moment under an immense amount of pressure to meet quotas that are not being made at a time when the military needs people desperately. Given the stress that they are dealing with, it is predictable. I am disappointed, but I'm not surprised.

A comment was made earlier about nothing really is final until you've graduated from boot camp - that's absolutely true. I was the XO of an Army Basic Training unit for a year, and we had a fairly average drop-out rate of 25% or so. Some were injuries, some didn't want to be there, others shouldn't have been there in the first place. None of them got enlistment bonuses. The policy with those bonuses was generally half upon reaching their duty post and half after a year of service. If you didn't have it in writing on the contract, you don't get it.

The comment was also made earlier that the recruiters just send people off to IET (Initial Entry Training) and let us sort it out - yeah, that's damn true. One cycle, we got, on the same day, a girl coming off a heroin addiction (about 2 weeks clean), a guy who had Irritable Bowel Syndrome (crapped his pants when he got nervous), and a girl who was a month off of chemotherapy for leukimeia. That was an extreme case, but I've always wondered just what it is that recruiters are trained to do.

As for you personally, Xes Laro, I wouldn't want you in the military. You sound like someone who is inconstant, vindictive, and has an inflated value of their own self worth. The fact that you spent however long it took you to write that rambling diatribe just to make these guys jobs harder and make yourself look like a poor victim speaks volumes of your character. Get over yourself, your oh-so-high ASVAB score, and your anger at people who, despite their flaws, have more courage and concern for their nation than you do.

I believe right now the DoD has a policy that allows anyone to drop from the DEP. But just because you can, it doesn't mean you should. If you do, you have just wasted much of the recruiters valuable time, further increasing his pressure. You have made an obligation to the Military and have broken it. While this may be legal, it's not necessarily right.

not only is it right, it's a moral obligation. everyone has a duty to waste as much of the murder-machine's time and money as they can get away with.

Its a tough life being a recruiter; theyre under a lot of stress, particularly as of now with the Iraq war and whatnot. Quotas are mandates from higher up, and those who dont fill them are screwed.

As for myself, I havent really found any problem recruiters. Still, I wish I was able to joint he military; I have a lung problem, and it will be several years before I can join (i have just had surgery).

If it can be corrected, your in. Enjoy boot camp!

I am legally blind. I can not be drafted or recruited. I now laugh

Operation Desert Storm
Iraqi Freedom
Afghanistan (reservists and guardsmen pretty much went at the same time as regular army)
Of course you don't have to take my word, just sign the document and you will find out for yourself.

Both iraq conflicts, the marines went first. Afghanistan, I've found very little info on actual ground fighting, but I've seen nothing saying the national guard went in first.

Both iraq conflicts, the marines went first. Afghanistan, I've found very little info on actual ground fighting, but I've seen nothing saying the national guard went in first.
As I stated, sign the dotted line.

As I stated, sign the dotted line.

So, when you cant back an argument, you fall back on meaningless statements?

Get over yourself, your oh-so-high ASVAB score, and your anger at people who, despite their flaws, have more courage and concern for their nation than you do.

Seriously, we should kill terrorists like him.

I'd also point out that Bill Maher was wrong about the knights and samurai. Sure, they would treat one another with a strict code of honor, but you can bet most of them would think nothing of hacking down a civilian or grunt who got in their way. The only nobility in war is in the intentions of the soldiers.
Not true. Knights, perhaps, as the code of Chivalry was largely unwritten. But the Bushido came from Shinto and Buddhism, which both advocated peaceful resolution of conflict. They certainly wouldn't restrain from hacking down a civilian who got in their way, if it was necessary, as they divided people into two categories: those trying to kill me and those who aren't trying to kill me. It was considered extremely dishonorable to use your sword callously. And that's another thing, the sword was far more than just a "weapon", to a samurai. It was considered to house his soul.

Philosophical study was also part of Bushido as well. And lastly, the other quality that the Samurai had that no one else had is an extremely high regard for "honor." They lived in what's called a shame-based society, whereas we live in a guilt-based society. In a guilt-based society, if you do something bad, it's on you, and you can feel bad for it, but it's no big deal. You make mistakes, you move on. But in a shame-based society, doing something bad is upon you and your entire family (hence, the movies, where the Asian guy says, "You have brought dishonor to our family"). If a Samurai did something incredibly dishonorable, such as running from a fight, killing someone in anger, etc, allowing themselves to be captured by the enemy, etc, it was fairly common for them to commit suicide (seppuku), often with a dagger, for their shame.

That kind of nobility is practically gone, except probably in Marines, and certain elite branches of the military. While I despise military recruiting, don't get me wrong, because I have great respect for Marines. "The Crucible", their final test, is INSANE. A 72 hour obstacle course, with almost no food or sleep? They're not men. They're supermen.

"The Crucible", their final test, is INSANE. A 72 hour obstacle course, with almost no food or sleep? They're not men. They're supermen.

Or... as I've always suspected... MACHINES!!!
*runs off to scream wildly in the streets*

No time to read the whole thread (reading the first post was long enough!) but I thought I was in a special position to reply to this.

I joined the US Navy just a little over a year ago, and am in a very long training school similar to those our origional author wrote (and maxed out that, admittedly, simple ASVAB). I figured I'd share my experiance for some contrast.

I was a college dropout, more or less. On the second semester of my 5th year of college, I finally admitted to myself that my increasingly lower grades were going to get me nowhere. I needed a boot in the rear.

I'd like to say I went to every service, but I went to just two. First to the Army, then to the Navy. The Army recruiter was straight up with me. He didn't talk around any issues or make things sound soft and fuzzy (and this was before I took said ASVAB).

But the Army didn't have what I wanted at the time. (funny how I ended up at a training school run by it anyway) I went to the Navy.

It took me a good month to decide, and on my first trip to Military Processing, I signed up. I waited in DEP for a few days short of a year (sticky point: DEP isn't so people can stay at home for a while, it is made so the military doesn't have to keep you in until they have a spot at your prospective school open up).

A few days short of a year in DEP. That entire time, my recruiters were honest with me and did the most they could to try and get me the job I wanted. Alas, it didn't open, but another I wanted did, and I was able to switch before I actually left for boot camp.

Now here is a second sticky spot. You don't take your "real oath" (note the quote, I consider both real) until just before basic training, when you go to Military Processing for the second time (actually, it was my third due to medical history).

Then there is boot camp, which, lets face it, stinks. Then your technical school, which I am still in, and finally fleet, when I hope to see after another year (GOSH!).

Now, I want to iterate and reiterate some things.

-As far as I can tell, none of my recruiters lied to me.
-As far as I can tell, my recruiters did as much as they could to get me in the job I wanted, and to get me a substantial sign-on bonus.
-I am currently studying in one of the toughest schools in the world (no joke).
-I am currently in one of the most beautiful places in the world (no joke).
-The day I signed my contract and took my first oath, I felt on top of the world.
-Despite some academic problems here (I am getting through, just not quite as well as I'd hoped), I feel like I am going somewhere.

The author of this thread had an incredibly bad experiance. I can't blame him for being mad. But I hope he and others will consider the idea that "there are some bad apples in every batch." Hardly excusable, I know, but still true.

I am sorry he had such a bad experiance with people in my Navy, and I wan't him to understand that not everyone in the US Navy is like that. Indeed, the vast majority of the people I have met or associated with are good, honest people.

Don't judge the entire military just because of a couple stupid recruiters.

I recently joined the US Air Force after looking at the AF, Navy, and Marines. Every recruiter I talked to was real nice and honest. In the end, I just decided that I liked the Air Force the best. So several weeks later I went down to MEPS, took the ASVAB, got a 96, and enlisted!

It is said that the hardest job in the military is recruiting. They are under tremendous pressure for impossible deadlines, and while this does not excuse the behavior, some of them crack. Make no mistake, recruiting is a HARD job. Unfortunatly, you just happened to meet a couple of not so good ones.

I believe right now the DoD has a policy that allows anyone to drop from the DEP. But just because you can, it doesn't mean you should. If you do, you have just wasted much of the recruiters valuable time, further increasing his pressure. You have made an obligation to the Military and have broken it. While this may be legal, it's not necessarily right. But I guess that depends on the situation.

Hey, a fellow Airman! Always nice to bump into one of those now and then. Good job on the ASVAB. I don't think I got that high :/

I've never had a bad experiance with a recruiter, mainly because I've wanted to join since I could think straight. My girlfriend was telling me how the Army recruiter called her and freaked her out. Well, by law, schools have to give recruiters names, grades, etc, unless the parents specificlly request them to not do so.
Personally, I think people are just intimidated by the military recruiters, scared that they think they might accidently sign themselves up without knowing it.
Well, you arn't signed up untill you sign that contract in BMT (Boot camp).
A recruiter hasseling you is as annoying as a telemarketer. Except they'll listen when you tell them to politely stop.
Bah, what am I saying? The US Military is an complex run by the weapons-manufacurers and other corperate congolmerates and plan to take over the world and oppress us all!

Did someone say they wanted proof that the National Guard and Reserves have been right there with everyone else since the beginning? LOL... Um... Have you been living under a rock since September 11, 2001? That must be what it is, you ran and hid under a rock when the World Trade Center came crashing down, and haven't come out yet. Check the news archives. But if you still don't believe it, by all means, sign up for the Guard or Reserves, I hear they have empty body bags that haven't been filled by friends of mine yet.

And like a telemarketer, if they have to try so hard to convince you, odds are that it's a scam.

Face it, everyone in the military is human. They are in no way, shape, or form, perfect. Some people are going to suck. Others will not. My recruiters (I went USAF) were all level with me and were fairly accomodating, considering the amount of stress they're put under with the quotas and whatnot. (That's something they talked about a lot, enlistment being down.) But obviously they're not all like that. Sorry that a lot of you have gotten the bad eggs, but I'm glad the amount of people that had good experiences is about equal. Yes, even the best ones sugar-coat stuff, but I was never outright lied too. I DID join with the intention of making a career of it, and not fast money, so maybe that has had some effect on things, but I doubt it. They're not all bad, and judging ANY organization solely by the bad members is pretty lame.

Reminds me a bit fo in 18/19th Century Britain where you had to accept the King's Shilling to join up. To do that they would uses numerous methods - one of the most notorious was putting the shilling at the bottom of the beer of an unsuspecting recruit. When he drunk it and the shilling, he had taken the King's Shilling and so was in the army. They would also offer soliders a small fortune in bounty but what was not mentioned was the fact that almost of the bounty would go on paying for your equipment.

But you see that was 18/19th century whereas this sorry, sorry tale is 20/21st Century America.

Recruitment isn't such a problem in Britain simply because they dont want huge numbers applying. Britain has always done better with smaller but better trained forces. For that reason there arent recruiting sergeants on every corner near McDonalds.

And like a telemarketer, if they have to try so hard to convince you, odds are that it's a scam.
Scam? You think a recruiter trying to convince people to join is a scam? Only if they lie, cheat, coerice, etc to get people to join. But I've never experianced that. The most persistant they've ever been was to mail me two letters at one time (someone messed up on my name so now I have two names, or a brother, I'm not sure). Sure, there might be some out there who try to scam people into joining, but that's only 0.00001% of recruiters at the most.
Try talking to a recrutier. Just talking. You'll find out that they are just as human as you (and they look dorky in their berets lol) and are actually not all that bad. They're just like me and you. Maybe if people would look around a little more than the stuff they're spoon-fed, they'll see the military isn't what others make it out to be.

Heh. Don't talk to me about Air Force hats.

So, when you cant back an argument, you fall back on meaningless statements?
This is not a debate. Sign the dotted line and you shall know reality.

So what you're saying is that you're a coward while your family has courageous people in it?so where did you figth Arammanar?
did you kill a couple?
did you see any blood?

Sign the dotted line and you shall know.Joe was looking to maybe buy a car....a very nice and friendlysalesman told him "Joe, This Tempo is a quality
car..sign the sales contract and you will find out how good this car really is.."

All I have to say is, if you don't want to die for your country, or you don't want fight for it, don't join the military. Everyone in the military, no matter how pencil pushing their job is, has the potential to be sent into a war zone. The military is there to defend America, and that means it kills people. You may not like it, but that's what it's there for, not your college money, not your life insurance.

so where did you figth Arammanar?
did you kill a couple?
did you see any blood?
I ship off next year. Abandoning your country as a "conscientious objector" is the epitome of cowardice. If you don't want to die for the rights you were given solely by basis of your fortunate birth, then leave. We don't need you.

Abandoning your country as a "conscientious objector" is the epitome of cowardice. If you don't want to die for the rights you were given solely by basis of your fortunate birth, then leave. We don't need you.

Just because somebody doesn't want to fight in a war they object to doesn't make them a coward. See, it's funny how everyone is prepared to fight to defend the right to form an opinion but when that opinion differs from your own those same people fighting want to take away that right. They have a right to object, you're fighting for that right and to suggest otherwise is ignorant.

I ship off next year. Abandoning your country as a "conscientious objector" is the epitome of cowardice. If you don't want to die for the rights you were given solely by basis of your fortunate birth, then leave. We don't need you.

how is dying for the benefit of the ruling elite related to protecting rights at all? screw that. the fight for freedom happens at home, and certainly has nothing to do with joining the state's murder-machine.

Just because somebody doesn't want to fight in a war they object to doesn't make them a coward. See, it's funny how everyone is prepared to fight to defend the right to form an opinion but when that opinion differs from your own those same people fighting want to take away that right. They have a right to object, you're fighting for that right and to suggest otherwise is ignorant.
I object to my taxes being spent on degenerates getting free food. Doesn't mean I don't pay them. If you support social security or welfare in any form, you're taking away my right to property without any legitimate reason. Yes, I can object, but if I didn't pay taxes, I doubt you'd make me the same martyr you're making the original poster to be.

how is dying for the benefit of the ruling elite related to protecting rights at all? screw that. the fight for freedom happens at home, and certainly has nothing to do with joining the state's murder-machine.
I don't plan on dying. But if I do, I'm dying for parasites like you as much as anyone else. The fight for freedom isn't contained to home, it's against all enemies, domestic AND foreign. I don't care if you support the war or not, if you don't want to serve your country, you can go. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

If you don't want to die for...I am willing to figth to defend my Family and I am willing to figth for Justice and Freedom.

But I am not willing to figth to defend Hallyburtons interests.

If that makes me a coward ...then thas what I am..
If that makes me a Terrorist ...then thas what I am..
If that makes me a budhist ...then thas what I am..
If that makes my a serial Killer...Then thats what I am..

calling me names is not going to make kill people in a distant country...I am not going to sign, Period.

if you don't want to serve your country, you can go.

no, i like it here. nice scenery. shame about the government and its bloated militarism though. but we'll fix that problem sooner or later.

I object to my taxes being spent on degenerates getting free food. Doesn't mean I don't pay them. If you support social security or welfare in any form, you're taking away my right to property without any legitimate reason. Yes, I can object, but if I didn't pay taxes, I doubt you'd make me the same martyr you're making the original poster to be.

Your argument makes no sense. I wasn't talking about the original poster at all, I was talking in general, because your logic is ignorant. You pay taxes because the government tells you to do so. The government doesn't tell you to be in the armed forces, that's why it's a volunteer armed forces. That's quite a bit of difference.

If you object to your taxes paying for the less fortunate, then, do something about it instead of trying to paint a colorful portrait of unpatriotic Americans who don't want to volunteer to fight wars they don't believe in.

Your argument makes no sense. I wasn't talking about the original poster at all, I was talking in general, because your logic is ignorant. You pay taxes because the government tells you to do so. The government doesn't tell you to be in the armed forces, that's why it's a volunteer armed forces. That's quite a bit of difference.

If you object to your taxes paying for the less fortunate, then, do something about it instead of trying to paint a colorful portrait of unpatriotic Americans who don't want to volunteer to fight wars they don't believe in.
Do you know what a draft is? It's the government telling you to join the armed forces. The fact I volunteered is incidental, and unrelated to the argument. A conscientious objector gets out of ALL armed forces, it's not merely not volunteering.

What do you want me to do about it? According to you, I should stop paying them.

Do you know what a draft is?

Yes, my father was drafted into fighting for the Vietnam war. He planned to go in on his own, but he was drafted before he could do so.

A conscientious objector gets out of ALL armed forces, it's not merely not volunteering.

Part of being an American citizen allows for the difference of opinions, especially in the time of war, being a conscientious objector - I'm not talking about those who fake being one, I'm talk about honest-to-God objectors - is allowed under law because the government realizes the importance of the difference of opinions when it comes to international conflict, especially in a country where you might have immigrants who've become citizens fighting their own family overseas.

According to you, I should stop paying them.

I never said that exactly. If you feel that your taxes being used to help fellow countrymen is not your cup of tea, your vote counts for something. If nobody supports your viewpoint, then, educate people, fight for it politically. That is also your right in this country. Unfortunately, most Americans don't feel their tax dollars are being wasted on helping the poor and homeless; most Americans, however, do feel that being a conscientious objector is a reason to not be drafted or go into the armed force voluntarily.

Part of being an American citizen allows for the difference of opinions, especially in the time of war, being a conscientious objector - I'm not talking about those who fake being one, I'm talk about honest-to-God objectors - is allowed under law because the government realizes the importance of the difference of opinions when it comes to international conflict, especially in a country where you might have immigrants who've become citizens fighting their own family overseas.

I never said that exactly. If you feel that your taxes being used to help fellow countrymen is not your cup of tea, your vote counts for something. If nobody supports your viewpoint, then, educate people, fight for it politically. That is also your right in this country. Unfortunately, most Americans don't feel their tax dollars are being wasted on helping the poor and homeless; most Americans, however, do feel that being a conscientious objector is a reason to not be drafted or go into the armed force voluntarily.
Your differing opinion shouldn't get you out of obligation to your country. I may not believe that I should be prevented from stealing from you. Based on my opinion, does the law no longer apply to me?

So the majority should oppress the minority?

So the majority should oppress the minority?

That's how it works in a limited-democracy likes ours. Take for instance the fact that I am homosexual, and I want to get married, majority says I can't legally do so under American law. Do I like it? No. Can I politically fight against it? Yes. However, the majority has spoken as per American law and governmental regulations. I have to respect that. This is what you're fighting for. This is what soldiers are dying for. That's the way it works in America.

That's how it works in a limited-democracy likes ours. Take for instance the fact that I am homosexual, and I want to get married, majority says I can't legally do so under American law. Do I like it? No. Can I politically fight against it? Yes. However, the majority has spoken as per American law and governmental regulations. I have to respect that. This is what you're fighting for. This is what soldiers are dying for. That's the way it works in America.
That's the way it works in America...unless you're a conscientious objector. No one has the right to abandon their countrymen. I obey all the laws of this nation. I vote, and do my civic duties. Someone who won't fight, even to defend their homeland, is a coward.

Someone who won't fight, even to defend their homeland, is a coward.

I'm sorry. I think that's one of the most ignorant statements anybody could ever say or believe. You're basically saying that if America nukes the rest of the free world and somebody doesn't want to launch one of those nukes, they're a coward.

Eyesight must be correctable to 20/20 for the Army, uncorrected 20/20 or better to fly in the Air Force, I don't know about the others.

Heh heh heh mine's only correctible to 40 over 20 :D

Without my glasses, I'm legally blind. As in can't read the big E blind.

Oh, and if the military tries to draft me, I have subversive thoughts on the hearing exam too. (like ignoring the fainter beeps) If they still do the hearing tests, that is.

I also need to get some conscientious objector records in order, but I'd try for medical deferments first because they don't require as much paperwork.

Bush is one of only three presidents in American history that I would refuse to serve under--the other two being Nixon and Johnson.

I'm sorry. I think that's one of the most ignorant statements anybody could ever say or believe. You're basically saying that if America nukes the rest of the free world and somebody doesn't want to launch one of those nukes, they're a coward.
When that happens, we can have that discussion.

no, i like it here. nice scenery. shame about the government and its bloated militarism though. but we'll fix that problem sooner or later.

Are you kidding me? Scenery is average at best, the people are busybodies and idiots, and frankly if I didn't have a mental disability I would move to Switzerland, China, or Lebanon after I finish my degree [but I couldn't even get through one semester of community college!].

Are you kidding me? Scenery is average at best, the people are busybodies and idiots, and frankly if I didn't have a mental disability I would move to Switzerland, China, or Lebanon after I finish my degree [but I couldn't even get through one semester of community college!].
See? This is how people should be. Don't like this country? There are about 200 others to choose from. Go nuts.

See? This is how people should be. Don't like this country? There are about 200 others to choose from. Go nuts.

Hey! I don't like my country either. Are you willing to pay for my moving expenses to France? :D

People who say "love it or leave it" should recognize that not all of us who want to "leave it" can afford financially to leave it.

See? This is how people should be. Don't like this country? There are about 200 others to choose from. Go nuts.

Ideally, I would go. But trouble is, I was afflicted with autism from birth, so I have little choice. It's either take $585/mo + food stamps + medicaid and live in this dump, or wind up starving to death somewhere else. Not much of a choice.

Hey! I don't like my country either. Are you willing to pay for my moving expenses to France? :D

People who say "love it or leave it" should recognize that not all of us who want to "leave it" can afford financially to leave it.
If you promise to never come back, sure, I'll fly you over there ;)

Oh, and if the military tries to draft me, I have subversive thoughts on the hearing exam too. (like ignoring the fainter beeps) If they still do the hearing tests, that is.

Yes.

Are you kidding me? Scenery is average at best

you can't average scenery. we've got everything from arctic to tropical, deserts to rainforests, mountains to fucking awesome beaches, huge roadless wilderness areas and world-class cities. and i likes it.

If you promise to never come back, sure, I'll fly you over there ;)

Trust me, I wouldn't want to come back to the U.S. Not only do I hate the politicians, I hate the culture more.

That's the way it works in America...unless you're a conscientious objector. No one has the right to abandon their countrymen. I obey all the laws of this nation. I vote, and do my civic duties. Someone who won't fight, even to defend their homeland, is a coward.
WHAT ABOUT THE POPE

Trust me, I wouldn't want to come back to the U.S. Not only do I hate the politicians, I hate the culture more.

AMEN! Same with the morons who elect them!

WHAT ABOUT THE POPE
Anyone who thinks that Vatican City is actual nation...well...isn't a coward, but is something! And it's not good.

Anyone who thinks that Vatican City is actual nation...well...isn't a coward, but is something! And it's not good.
No, people said the Pope was a Nazi because he was part of the Nazi Youth Corps (but it wasn't a choice, really.. all kids were required to do it).

But then, when World War II happened, he went AWOL. He could've helped Jews escape or joined the British or French army, but he didn't. Instead, he accepted being drafted in the German Army, then shortly afterwards, deserted them, only to be captured by the Americans and put in a POW camp.

He, in no way, "defended his homeland."

So, is the Pope a coward?

Wow this is so sad. Fortunately I live in a country without a military. Sadly that prevents me from fighting for my rights and my country. No wait it doesn't because I don't have to kill foreigners to do that.

I ship off next year. Abandoning your country as a "conscientious objector" is the epitome of cowardice. If you don't want to die for the rights you were given solely by basis of your fortunate birth, then leave. We don't need you.
So where would you put me? I am unable to serve thanks to an acident of birth, namely being deaf in one ear, which by the way is probably thanks to the United States Army.

first of all, a conscientious objector is not a coward. During Vietnam, World War I and World War II, the United States recognized their status and they were given choices. Some chose to serve in the military as medics (and a number won the Medal of Honor doing so), some chose to stay in prison, pretty brave considering the times, some chose to work for the government doing various labor projects. Similar situations occured in the UK as well.

At this time, there is no such status, because anyone in the military volunteered to be there, with the obvious understanding that military forces exist to fight wars, and the risk even in peacetime has always been that a member of the military may be called to serve in combat or in a combat situation.

There is no draft, and the Selective Service registration requirement exists only so that one could be created if the situation allowed it (politically it doesn't)

Men and women who volunteer to service in the military forces of the United States, reserves or active duty, understand that they can (and right now will) be called on to go to war. They also understand that if required they may very well die for their country, or kill for it, or both. Traditionally in Western Civilization military service is considered a noble calling because those in the military chose to place their lives on the line for the rest of us, just as fire fighters and police officers do.

Any man or woman, or boy or girl, who signs that enlistment contract should understand the above. If under age, then for damn sure their parents better read the damn thing. If of age, then it is their responsibility to do so. You have the right to take the damn thing home and look at it. If you don't, you have only yourself to blame.

You as an adult are responsible for your actions, even if you screwed up and did something stupid like sign an enlistment contract without reading the fine print.

The bottom line is this. The US military is not a jobs program, or a job training program, or an educational program. It exists to protect this country, the constitution of the United States, and the vital strategic interests of the United States. On occasion, some would say even frequently, the politicians forget that, but that is why its there.

Not true. Knights, perhaps, as the code of Chivalry was largely unwritten. But the Bushido came from Shinto and Buddhism, which both advocated peaceful resolution of conflict. They certainly wouldn't restrain from hacking down a civilian who got in their way, if it was necessary, as they divided people into two categories: those trying to kill me and those who aren't trying to kill me. It was considered extremely dishonorable to use your sword callously. And that's another thing, the sword was far more than just a "weapon", to a samurai. It was considered to house his soul.
Um, I hate to burst your bubble on this, but bushido was pretty much like chivalry, looks great on paper and you were supposed to follow it, but in general... most samurai did not. Most samurai were not nice folks. There were a number of massacres committed by samurai against whole villages during the sengoku (waring states) period. Bushido itself dates more towards the mid to end of the Edo era, after peace had been established (by the military force of mainly cutting off the heads of those who disagreed with Tokugawa).

Not to say that samurai did not follow a code of honor, or commit sepuku, but in looking at some of the actions committed by ronin, the daimyo, or the Tokugawa shogunate itself... they were not the nice warriors depected in The Last Samurai.

This is not a debate. Sign the dotted line and you shall know reality.

Thanks for telling me what I already told everyone I was going to do?

Either you're dense, or you have a really bad point. Either way...

Um, I hate to burst your bubble on this, but bushido was pretty much like chivalry, looks great on paper and you were supposed to follow it, but in general... most samurai did not. Most samurai were not nice folks. There were a number of massacres committed by samurai against whole villages during the sengoku (waring states) period. Bushido itself dates more towards the mid to end of the Edo era, after peace had been established (by the military force of mainly cutting off the heads of those who disagreed with Tokugawa).

Not to say that samurai did not follow a code of honor, or commit sepuku, but in looking at some of the actions committed by ronin, the daimyo, or the Tokugawa shogunate itself... they were not the nice warriors depected in The Last Samurai.

I have to agree with NERVUN on this one. During the Sengoku Jedi, you can bet there were atrocities committed by samurai, from raping women to stealing millet from peasants. That's just how the spring roll crumbles. And for the most part, Bushido was something which was debated and discussed among samurai, not laws written in stone just because of its origins from Renzai Buddhism and Shintoism (if you want evidence of this, just read Tsunetomo's works and compare them to Musashi's). Even during the 1930s when Japan was trying to revive Bushido ideals in its military, you get things like the Nanjing Massacre. Don't get your historical perspective on Feudal Japan from anime or the bacchic frenzy of Hollywood.

Now, to the topic at hand. If you have plans about joining the military, but yet want to keep your life - don't join. Complaining about the odds of death while looking to join is just as illogical as a prospective med student who has issues with being around the presence of blood or gore. I understand your concern about recruiters perpetrating lies, but to be incendiary towards the vast majority of the military isn't good.

Like you, I am a college student. I looked into what the recruiters told me, and afterward, I spoke to people who served in the military - people that I knew and could trust. My conclusion was to simply wait until I received my bachelor's degree, and then look into military service. I also have plans to perhaps pursue seminary or divinity school, so there is a possibility of looking into the Chaplain Corps.

My advice to you would be to wait, and then get your degree. And see what opens up. I feel for your situation and the dire straights which you are in, but it just doesn't serve anything to lambast like this.

In response to the original post... there is some substance to what you are saying, but there's also a lot of bs. It's pretty clear to me, as a navy veteran, that there are some parts of your tale where you don't know what you're talking about.

For instance, your reference to AECF as a recruiting program is nonsense. Yes, there are incentives for taking an AECF rate, which are mentioned at recruiting time, but the program is there to train people who can maintain the complex systems necessary for the navy's mission. The incentives recognize that graduates of AECF programs are expected to be more intelligent and highly responsible than the average recruit, which makes it only practical to accelerate their promotions to E-4. It also offsets the fact that AECF students will be required to sign up for a 6-year obligation from the very start, because the navy doesn't get enough value from a 4-year enlistee who spends up to the first two years in school.

Furthermore, you aren't sent to boot camp under a generic AECF umbrella. You sign a contract which places you in a specific job field which falls under the AECF category. Clearly you had not advanced to that point yet. As far as I know, the navy is the only branch which offers contracts which guarantee your initial career path before you get to boot camp.

Another thing is this "cash assistance" program. I've never heard of any such thing, so I looked it up on the net, in case it was something new, and I didn't come up with any hits. It strikes me as bizarre in the extreme that the navy would promise to help you pay for your education when:

1) You're going in as an enlisted man, meaning your college prior to entry means nothing to them. The only education they need is the one they're going to give you.

2) You're in a situation where you can take their money for some time and then walk away, without ever showing up at boot, because you are not yet under any legal obligation to serve.

So either you got sucked in by promises for a program which does not exist, or you misinterpreted what they were saying. I am not in a position to judge which.

All that said...

My own experience with navy recruiters was something less than desirable. At the time I was trying to work my way through college, and failing miserably. I was doing temp work in warehouses right then, and was calling ads for more permanent work along those lines, when I came across an ad for warehouse work that promised too much. And it had an 800-number, rather than a local one. My bs alarm went off, but I went ahead and called it. The guy on the other end promised me all kinds of nice benefits and such, then told me what I was expecting, "But you have to join the navy to get the job."

So right off the bat, we're talking about a misleading ad, the kind we'd sue and win if a civillian did it. But I saw right through it, so it was no big deal to me. Still, what I was doing wasn't working, so it was time to try something new, and I went ahead and met the recruiters. When one of them brought up the fact that I'd called about the warehouse job, the first words out of my mouth were, "Yeah, but if I'm going to join the navy, I'm sure as hell not going to work in any damned warehouse." That was the last time any of them spoke to me about career options. Every time I asked for a pamphlet or something, so I could see what my options were, they just said I'd get all that information at MEPS (military entry processing station, the thing you do just before you ship to boot).

During questioning, the recruiters learned I had an asthma problem when I was very young (it ended at 5). They got all freaky about it, even though their rules clearly stated that, so long as you hadn't had an attack since age 13, you were good. Still, they wanted me to go get a physical and come back with a note saying my lungs were good. So I did. The doctor laughed when I told her while I was there, because she said you can't tell someone has asthma unless they're having an attack right then. But she was a good sport, and gave me the note. I gave it to my recruiters. They told me it would be in my folder when I get to MEPS.

On to MEPS, and I do the whole physical thing there, then sit down for the grilling with the doctor. They're very threatening, telling you repeatedly that you can be held criminally responsible if they find out you've lied. So he asks me about asthma, and I tell him all about it, including the bit about a note that should be in the folder he's holding from my doctor. It's not there. The a$$hole recruiters threw it away. Now I've got this jerk doctor calling me a liar. He finally drops the subject, acting like he's doing me some huge favor in the process.

Finally I get so see a career counselor to decide what field I'm going into. He looks at my ASVAB (another 96) and asks me what I want to do. It's clear from his attitude and the way he'd asked the question that I could name anything I want... only I have no idea what I have to choose from, because the a$$hole recruiters wouldn't give me any information. So I'm trying to guess what the navy has to offer that I might like, and I stammer out something about computers. This gives the counselor a good starting point for giving me some good information, and I end up signing on as a Fire Controlman (one of those AECF fields, which is why I know what I'm talking about).

Now, it just so happens that I was quite happy with my choice, and given the whole spectrum to choose from, I might have taken it anyway. Then again, I might have chosen Journalism instead, since what I really wanted to be was a writer.

Anyway, it was a crappy journey, but overall I was not highly dissatisfied with the results. That is not a normal condition. Over the years I heard many a recruiting horror story, including guys in the fleet who had recently taken a turn at it. It's the worst shore duty a guy can get, and they were forcing guys into it when I left, because nobody would take it. In fact, my little bro followed me into the navy, and he's still in, and he's looking at a stint at recruiting when he rotates in another year or so. A great many guys were incredibly unhappy with their recruiters, some so much that they hoped their careers would cross paths with their recruiters' in the future so they could beat the crap out of them.

The worst story I ever heard was when I was in TPU in Pearl Harbor, waiting to get flown out to join my ship in the Gulf. I was rooming with this guy who had signed on as a deck seaman, which meant he had no specialty and was a grunt worker. This guy had done some backpacking across Europe before the navy, and had landed in a good situation in Poland, where he had married a hot Polish woman and worked as a radio DJ for a while. He wanted to join the navy but was interested in an opportunity to be sent back to Poland, as an interpreter or something attached to the US embassy, and his recruiter had managed to convince him that he could go in as a deck seaman and apply for that at boot. Needless to say, this guy developed an attitude when he found out what was really in store for him, and was in the process of being thrown out of the navy when our paths crossed.

The recruiters lied to my brother, too, but I told him not to sign anything until he spoke to me, and he did just that. He'd call me and tell me what wonderful job opportunity he was excited about, and based on his romanticized description (the one the recruiter had given him) I could figure out what the job classification was and tell him how it really was... including what kind of assignments he could expect. The first job was a suck job in supply, the second was a decent one but it meant being on subs, and the third was fire control, so I didn't have much bad to say about it. And that's what he took. I've provided that service for a few other people I knew who were enlisting in the navy, too, though my coworker's son went and signed up as a ship's serviceman despite my information. Cut hair and fill soda machines... what the hell are you going to do with that once you get out?

There's already post on military recruiting, but the main purpose of this thread is to share my horrible experiences with the U.S. military. Posting this in the other thread would be rather off-topic.

I wanted to address an error.

Actually, your "official" swearing in occurs right before shipping out to bootcamp, not after. Though you are right, the DEP swearing isn't "official".

I was in DEP through my senior year, and then spent a subsequent 6 years in the Navy, in an ATF/AEF field (what we called those advanced fields)... And was applicable for the Nuclear Program, but passed it up to go into Combat Systems aboard submarines. (Which I rather enjoined later, when watching the nukes hooking up shore power after my first 6 month deployment aboard the USS Hampton [SSN-767], as I was in my civies heading out home for fun)... Though recieved the same Advancement levels (Automatic E-3 (SN) out of bootcamp, automatic E-4 (FT3) out of A-School, and managed to pass my E-5 (FT2) exam shortly before leaving my last training school in Groton... Completed my submarine qualifications in 5 months (SS), And put on E-6 (FT1/SS) late 1996)...

I actually left for only 3 reasons:

1. I would have been forced to shore duty for my next rotation.
2. My Re-enlistment bonus was near to nothing, so it was pointless to worry about it, because of too many FT's.
3. I had no desire to continue my advancment where I would be forced to give up my backbone, and become an invertegrate to put on Khaki's as a Chief Petty Officer in the near future.

It was however enjoyable, when I ran into the FC2/SW, who was my recruiter, on a Destroyer in Norfolk, close to my leaving. I was an FT1/SS at the time... And it was nice to know I had outranked my own recruiter... And was leaving, while his lame ass was still an E-5.

BTW: There were some niceties of my time.

I was a "Summer Camp" bootcamp type. I went to NTC Orlando for both Bootcamp and BE&E. (Which no longer exists... damn them!)

Which was a nice offset to my next little over 2 years in Groton, CT. The armpit of New England...

And, having finished first in school in Groton, got my pick of billets..... I picked the Hampton out of Norfolk.... Which was nice, being from Virginia Beach next door (anytime you can get stationed in your "backyard" is nice).

"How can they decieve you into signing a contract, then jail you, when you realize you were lied to? It's outright evil. Currently, recruiters aren't supposed to tell lies, but stretching the truth, hiding the truth, and "little white lies" are okay, because they can get away with them, legally. "

If you're joining the military for the money, you're joining for the wrong reasons. Anyone (including fly-by-night trucking schools) is going to take advantage of someone desperate for money.

Speaking as someone who did the DEP, and enlisted in the Army as an infantryman, and served a great tour, I would suggest that you examine why you're joining.

Most people are not joining "for the money". They know there's a war on.

As for lies, that's been the way ALL recruiting has been throughout history. If it isn't in your enlistment contract - in clear language - it doesn't exist.

They even pull neat tricks at re-enlistment. I remember one guy saying he would re-enlist if he got a particular assignment. They gave it to him - and the moment he arrived at that assignment, he was given new orders sending him somewhere else. He might have been at the desired post for all of 30 seconds.

Think carefully about the reason you're joining. Most of the people in combat arms (infantry, armor, and other specialties that get shot at regularly) have chosen those options on purpose. I wouldn't want to be stuck in combat with someone who was constantly worried about his ailing mom or wondering why the pay just wasn't adding up to enough.

Australia is interesting in comparison. During peacetime, we had upto 10,000 combat ready troops (officially anway)and the reserves did not have problems attracting young people as they kind of saw it as an adventure. The military didn't have to advertise for recruitments much then.

Since East Timor, Australia has engaged in many overseas military campaigns/peacekeeping operations. The government is now advertising like mad to attract people to the reserves let alone the rest of the forces.

For mine. I went to the Enlistment office in my senior year, early on. I also had family military background (my dad spent 24 years in the Navy, also as a submariner... which partially influenced my desires).

I went for processing into DEP at the MEPS in richmond. AFQT of 98 (ASVAB score)... and on the NFQT a 75 (Nuke Test).

I passed up the Nuclear Program (after much badgering from the Nuclear Program Recruiter, who spent too much damn time drooling over my scored and HS curriculum [which included AP physics and chemistry course work]). And talked my way into this "box" of card, which gave a rundown of all the different ratings in the Navy....

I eventually settled on the Firecontrol Technician (Submarines) program [Formerly FTG]. And settled upon that (Anything that combines electronics and high-explosives, is cool).

In that, I have similarities to the FC type I saw in here ;) Just a different place... And a-abit more involved... FT's on fast-attack subs, are more like combining a FC and an OS into a single rate... With much better advancement... seeing as it puts me in the direct site of the OOD and CO... Which explains my advancment. Alot of it came because I was an awsome tactician... Scoring better than most JO's on the Advanced Tactics course, and having grown up around naval assets in VB and norfolk, could pretty much visually identify any aircraft or surface ship.....

That actually became part of the reason I got advanced to E-6 so quickly (on my first try)... Thanks to my CO's recommendations... as an E-5 I would tutor the Junior Officers on identifying ships and aircraft while on deployment... As well as developed the siluette cards for the use of the OOD and other officers manning the periscope. As well as my assistance with LCDR Criswell, during operations where we were playing an enemy sub, taking on the rest of the battlegroup, with the task of sinking the carrier... I assisted with developing tactics, and tricks to avoid detection... As well as an operation involving tracking a russian battlegroup (underhull surveys) in submerged transit of the Straits of Gibraltar (undisclosed time).

I also had the quickets snap-shot time in my division. A "snap-shot" is when a submarine is fired upon, the first reaction is to get a "torpedo" out ASAP... pretty much in the time it takes to spin the torpedoes guidance up (a few seconds) towards the firing target... and then to take evasion (the idea is, that if the firing vessel has to avoid our own weapon, they don't have time to fire another)... My time was about 26 seconds between call of incomming, to actual impulse of the torpedo out of the tube towards the target.

I was also #2 in my class..... #1 and #'s 3 and 4 were all fleet-returnees, training on the "Busy-One" CombatControl System, after returning from old Mk113 firecontrol system based boats going through decom. So out of the NUB's, I was #1... And this was overall, in both the Maintenance course work, as well as the Advanced Tactics Course...

Overall, the recruiters had little part in my enlistment... As I was not entering due to what they said, but based only upon my prior knowledge as a navy-brat, being the son of a retired navy YNCS/SS (E-8)... So, I could care less what they "said" as I knew what I "wanted".

And since its sea-story time already....

I managed to have the ship avoid being rammed by the USS Maine, an OHIO class SSBN during a training operation....

It was shortly after sonar classified the Maine as a troller, and then said it was traveling on 1 nine-bladed screw. (Someone needed to put a boot up Sonar's ass).... We managed to miss one another by about 100 yards.... Which is spitting distance at sea.... And could not even detect one another, unless we were within 1000 yards range of one another.... I definitely learned about exactly how "quiet" our subs really are.

I was aboard the USS Hampton, a Flight-4 Los Angeles Class Fast-Attack... We also held the the spot as the quietest Fast-Attack in SUBLANT for 3 years. Partially due to having a shrowded screw.

Someone who won't fight, even to defend their homeland, is a coward.That what the Iraqui freedom figthers say...they very much have the same philosophy.

The days of the noble samurai, following the code of Bushido, and the brave knight following the code of chivalry, have been replaced by grunts, tricked into joining, so they can either be bullet-catchers, or pilot mass-killing machines, murdering hundreds of people (including innocents) with the push of a button, while sometimes becoming just as evil as the bad guys, as we'd seen from Abu-Graib.

:rolleyes: Heh, if thats what he wrote then the author has a very microscopic understanding of what chivalry and bushido was/is.

'Noble Samurai', yes there were some, no denying that, but when you read of the slaughtering of peasents, burning of villages etc, its doens't always ring true. The same is true of the 'brave knight'...of course there were some, but there are plenty of cases rape, brutality and murder throughout the middle ages (as I assume thats the knight you are alluding to). Of course I am applying modern ethics to a couple hundred year old warrior castes/codes, but that said comparing a samurai or knight to a modern soldier is just as futile.

EDIT: It appears i was beaten too it but hey, its all good.

Any man or woman, or boy or girl, who signs that enlistment contract should understand the above.
Daddy:" Boys anf girls on your way to school, never talk to smiling stranger on the Mercedes...and never talk the the smiling Recruiter on the Hummer, If they talk to you, just dont talk back...they look nice/ friendly/ easy going... and they will try to seduce you".

http://www.antiwar.com/photos/recruiter.jpg

Yeah, joining up in wartime is not a gret thing to do. The Navy and Chair Force have cut something like 15,000 jobs a piece, and the Army and Marine Corps are hoping to pick up on those.
Here are some pointers to dealing with recruiters, from someone who served 4 years in the Marines and who is now in the Army National Guard.

THEY LIE! Thier job is to fill seats. That's it. Don't fool yoursefl into thinking anything else.
ALWAYS get everything they promise you in writing. Do not be afraid to ask.
TAKE along someone who is alredy in the military to help you negotiate and to watch your six.

You can choose to opt-out until the moment you step foot on that plane to go off to Basic. Once you get in, it is all over.
If you go Army or Marines, EXPECT to go overseas. I spent 3 of my 4 years in the Marines in Afghanistan and Iraq, and my National Guard unit is prepping to go to Iraq. You WILL be deployed.
Depending on what Navy or Air Cadet job you choose, you very well may deploy in a combat support role. Medical branches are spending alot of time in the Box.
I scored a 94 the first time I took the ASVAAB, and a 96 the second. I was a Marine infantryman, and now I am a Cavalry Scout. Do the job that will make you happy, regardless of what you score (obviosuly, a 34 cannot be a nuclear repair technician for the navy, though).
It is a great way to pay for college, and I have no regrets doing it. And don't take it personally, when a recruiter says that you aren't patriotic by not choosing a Combat Arms job or not wanting to deploy, remember that he APPLIED to be a recruiter and stay stateside, and the reason may not be altruisitc. Again, his job is to get your name in ink on the line, and he is a salesman, and will do that by praise, threatening, etc. Let it roll. Remind him that you can go elsewhere. In fact, Go elsewhere and check them out,. let him know that you are. Competition really gets them bending over backwards.

As far as conscientious objectors go, fuck them. Just kidding. They are very brave and very patriotic to stand up in the face of this Nationalist Zealotry that seems to be popping up everywhere. If it was not for people like them, who knows if we would even have a First Amendment anymore? As a member of the military, I took an oath to support the Constitution, and I am glad to see people who will protest the war and protest the government, because they exercise that right which we so often take for granted. Plus, this is a stupid war. No matter what chickenshits like Rush Limbaugh say. Drug addict.

Yeah, joining up in wartime is not a gret thing to do. The Navy and Chair Force have cut something like 15,000 jobs a piece, and the Army and Marine Corps are hoping to pick up on those.
Here are some pointers to dealing with recruiters, from someone who served 4 years in the Marines and who is now in the Army National Guard.

THEY LIE! Thier job is to fill seats. That's it. Don't fool yoursefl into thinking anything else.
ALWAYS get everything they promise you in writing. Do not be afraid to ask.
TAKE along someone who is alredy in the military to help you negotiate and to watch your six.

You can choose to opt-out until the moment you step foot on that plane to go off to Basic. Once you get in, it is all over.
If you go Army or Marines, EXPECT to go overseas. I spent 3 of my 4 years in the Marines in Afghanistan and Iraq, and my National Guard unit is prepping to go to Iraq. You WILL be deployed.
Depending on what Navy or Air Cadet job you choose, you very well may deploy in a combat support role. Medical branches are spending alot of time in the Box.
I scored a 94 the first time I took the ASVAAB, and a 96 the second. I was a Marine infantryman, and now I am a Cavalry Scout. Do the job that will make you happy, regardless of what you score (obviosuly, a 34 cannot be a nuclear repair technician for the navy, though).
It is a great way to pay for college, and I have no regrets doing it. And don't take it personally, when a recruiter says that you aren't patriotic by not choosing a Combat Arms job or not wanting to deploy, remember that he APPLIED to be a recruiter and stay stateside, and the reason may not be altruisitc. Again, his job is to get your name in ink on the line, and he is a salesman, and will do that by praise, threatening, etc. Let it roll. Remind him that you can go elsewhere. In fact, Go elsewhere and check them out,. let him know that you are. Competition really gets them bending over backwards.

As far as conscientious objectors go, fuck them. Just kidding. They are very brave and very patriotic to stand up in the face of this Nationalist Zealotry that seems to be popping up everywhere. If it was not for people like them, who knows if we would even have a First Amendment anymore? As a member of the military, I took an oath to support the Constitution, and I am glad to see people who will protest the war and protest the government, because they exercise that right which we so often take for granted. Plus, this is a stupid war. No matter what chickenshits like Rush Limbaugh say. Drug addict.

*reads last paragraph*

*applauds*

Its nice to see former active duty/current reservists stand up to t3h üb3rnati0nalism. Take it from someone who would gladly serve under all but three American presidents--Bush junior being one of them.

I opposed the war against Iraq since before it started--I'd rather rot in prison than fight for Halliburton.

Yeah, joining up in... *snip*good balanced post.
5 stars.

And you got a 96 on that test?

Hrmmm...something isn't right here. Anyone dumb enough to join the military does not score that high.


I got a perfect score (99 out of 99) and I'm part of the cadet corps at Penn State training to be U.S. Army officers. Personally I resent your attitude that people who join the military are "dumb". You have a lot of gall to say that those of us who are willing to put our necks on the line so you can sleep at night are "dumb". Are you willing to do it? Quite obviously not...your arrogance and condescending attitude are sickening.

Oh...and as for the statement that all soldiers join for the benefits, not true. I'm not saying that my scholarship isn't a nice benefit, I'm just saying that's not my reason for joining. I'd join regardless. I suppose it's too far of a stretch for you that some people would possess the values and ideals that would make us willing to fight and die for something that you so ardently despise. I joined because I love my country...plain and simple...and because military service is a family tradition dating back 200+ years.

...e military service is a family tradition dating back 200+ years.dating back to france?

I got a perfect score (99 out of 99) and I'm part of the cadet corps at Penn State training to be U.S. Army officers. Personally I resent your attitude that people who join the military are "dumb". You have a lot of gall to say that those of us who are willing to put our necks on the line so you can sleep at night are "dumb". Are you willing to do it? Quite obviously not...your arrogance and condescending attitude are sickening.
Yeah totally, because its not like anyone on the internet could possibly be making a joke. You should definately take yourself more seriously though. At this point you might actually take something as sarcastic.

dating back to france?

Family came over from France in 1740. First servicemember: French and Indian War (colonial/british side)

Now, tell me this: Would he have treated you like that, if you decided not to join? Highly unlikely. A great deal of it has to do with the pressure recruiters are put upon. But only the people who have the ability to decieve teenagers, or get a great thrill out of it, take the job. That's why, in my experience, they're slippery shits, because it helps them do the job.


The Uniform Code of Military Justice. And I've read all of it. In fact, it was another major reason I'd dropped out. But no, she's partially right. I think you just misunderstand what she's saying. The military claims it isn't discriminating against gays, because gays can join. But you can't be openly gay and join the military. There are people who are obviously gay. Guys who do the wrist-flop, have the lisp, and are more queer than sailors on a submarine, but they're still serving. And no one can ask (but you can't tell). You know this, obviously, but I'm just clarifying.. You can be gay, even obviously gay, but you can't be kissing guys, dressing in drag, or talking about being gay.

But yes, I'd also dropped out of the military, because of how expansive the UCMJ is. There's a clause in military law which says basically that they can prosecute you for any reason, if it's not covered under the rest of the UCMJ. THAT basically means that your civil rights are totally gone, when joining the military. My contract also elaborated on the fact that even after the contract is up, they can call me back, until I'm like 50. (This happened to my ex-girlfriend's father, actually, too). Plus, the section on "displaying disloyalty" bothered me as well. Because I could never, in the military, always talk about how great the current administration is. I was even bothered by the fact that Bush's picture was framed in the recruiting office, though I completely understand the reason ("commander-in-chief", I know).

Might want to read something next time before you sign it. And you might want to have a little respect for those in a uniform who are willing to die for your freedom.

Hey, buddy, recruiters and armchair generals aren't willing to die for my freedom. In fact, after I'd told my mother what the army recruiter said to me, she said I should've asked him whose dick he sucked to get such a cushy, recruiting job.


The programs vary from branch to branch, although they all give about the same. I'm not even sure if the Marines have a Delayed-Entry Program, as I'd think they'd be shipped off to bootcamp rather quickly. Although the stereotype of marines doesn't always fit, it often does, and as one marine told me, "being a rifleman comes first, your rate comes second." In the Navy, they have the "cash assistance" program, where if you're signed up for one of the most lucrative fields, you're eligible for "cash assistance", being put under active-duty, status with a rank of E1 (bumped after to E2 or E3 after bootcamp), and being paid, as a active-duty, and money for college. I know they paid guys in DEP program, because they said it a few times, and I was supposed to recieve it as well. This wasn't just your typical fib. Several of them said it, openly, as well as the chief there, and to my mother over the phone.


SIGN UP TO BE A CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR, NOW!

A lot of people don't know this, but you can prevent being drafted in a war, by filing with the government for "conscientious objector" status.

http://www.nisbco.org/

As for anyone who is eventually going to call me a "coward." I come from a military family as well. My father was in the British army (either infantry or artillery, can't remember) and a corpsman and medical photographer in the American Navy, and retired as an HM2. My mother was a laboratory technician in the Navy and retired as an HM1, almost making it to Chief Petty Officer, but someone else beat her for the job, just before she had to retire.

I also have to ask, "Does being willing to fight in war make you brave?"

The author, Bill Maher, said not too long ago that modern war is cowardly. The days of the noble samurai, following the code of Bushido, and the brave knight following the code of chivalry, have been replaced by grunts, tricked into joining, so they can either be bullet-catchers, or pilot mass-killing machines, murdering hundreds of people (including innocents) with the push of a button, while sometimes becoming just as evil as the bad guys, as we'd seen from Abu-Graib. While I fully agree that marines, corpsman, infantry, and many active special forces divisions have to face "real" work, not office work or fixing radios, and it does require a great deal of determination to do that and a certain brotherhood, and state-of-mind, there is nothing inherently noble about it, because they are not always fighting for freedom, or for justice. They are fighting for what the U.S. goverment claims is freedom and justice. Perception and reality are not one and the same. The U.S. government is no exception.

And a huge majority of people who see combat go back with post-traumatic stress syndrome. Having irrational fear, that "the enemy" is still around them, trying to kill them. Waking up with nightmares, of murdering countless faceless people. Walking along roads, surrounded by dead, rotting bodies. As I said, they estimate that 1\3 of our war veterans will be treated for it. As my philosophy professor who fought in Vietnam said, the only people who glorify war are those who have never seen it. After saying that, he usually smiles, and says, "Ah, the smell of human intestines, in the morning." So, playing the 'bravery' card is childish, and it means nothing.

Just a few comments I wanted to make.

1/ In your previous post you said you were thinking of signing for the Royal navy. As an ex-RN man, I can tell you that you'll have trouble considering your past. You will have to disclose any previous service or applications for service to any military organisations, and, as you probably understand, the US and UK armed forces work pretty close together. Whatever the reasons were that these guys got nasty with you will be passed on to your RN recruiter, who will take one look at the file and say "troublemaker", whether it's true or not.

2/ Financial gain should never be the primary reason for military service. Whilst I understand the reason given my limited knowledge of the US education system, the primary reason should be the sewrvice of your country. It has little to do with bravery or right-wing patriotism, but service. This is where you perform duties to benefit your nation and countrymen, not to make you feel good.

3/ The issue of homosexuals in the military will always be a contentious one. Most military people tend to be homophobic through years of intitutionalised behaviour - gays being "bad" is something that the military has bred into people for years and years, and it will take a long time for this to change. The charge of being gay being thrown at you is just because of this backward attitude. It probably wasn't his reason for supposedly discharging you, he was trying to insult you so you'd sign up and prove him wrong.

4/ Many people join the military to gain an "adventure", either seeking danger or excitement. Not a great reason, but a valid one, and they usually make great servicemen. If this is your reason, I'd recommend the French Foriegn legion from personal experience (5 years service). It taught me a new life and a new language, and was the greatest adventure of my life, without having all the jingoistic stuff you get in your own nation's military. You can join up and still be proud to be an american.

Though recieved the same Advancement levels (Automatic E-3 (SN) out of bootcamp, automatic E-4 (FT3) out of A-School, and managed to pass my E-5 (FT2) exam shortly before leaving my last training school in Groton... Completed my submarine qualifications in 5 months (SS), And put on E-6 (FT1/SS) late 1996)...

I got into the AEF program (they hadn't yet added the C) in 1993, just as they were reducing the benefits. The enlistment bonus had been cancelled just a few months prior, meaning I got to go to school with guys who had gotten it. Another change was to the advancement... instead of making E4 out of A-school, you had to serve the minimum time in rate. We were advanced to E2 out of boot, then had to serve the minimum of 9 months before putting on E3 (which coincided with the end of A-school) and then 6 months before E4 (which for me, coincided with the end of C-school).

Through a weird twist of fate, I put on E4 on December 16th, which for accounting purposes backdated my eligibility based on time in rate all the way back to June (I made the cutoff by two weeks). The next advancement cycle began with testing in March and would award advancements the following June. For paperwork purposes, I would have my minimum 1 year time in rate and was therefore eligible to take the March exam. I took it, and blew it out of the water, and advanced my first time up. FC's were advancing to E5 after 2-3 test cycles at that time, so needless to say I pissed a lot of people off. I'd only just shown up at the ship in February.

It also meant I had one shot at E6 before my six-year enlistment was up. I had no interest, because by the time I got paid for it, I'd only get a few checks before I separated. Meantime, I would be eligible for all the crappy first-class jobs on a surface combatant... divisional DCPO, messdecks master-at-arms, berthing compartment supervisor, etc. I had a computer room full of amateurs who needed all the training I could give them before they were on their own, so I had more important things to do. So I planned to christmas tree the test. My DIVO wasn't too happy about that, and he eventually bribed me to take the test seriously. I did answer the questions to the best of my ability, but I refused to study, and still got a 70 on the thing. With a pretty good, but not great, eval, and zero award points, I still managed to miss the cutoff by only 3 points. My DIVO seemed to take it personally that I didn't make it. Weird... especially since he was a short-timer, too.

I actually left for only 3 reasons:

1. I would have been forced to shore duty for my next rotation.
2. My Re-enlistment bonus was near to nothing, so it was pointless to worry about it, because of too many FT's.
3. I had no desire to continue my advancment where I would be forced to give up my backbone, and become an invertegrate to put on Khaki's as a Chief Petty Officer in the near future.

I would have liked going to shore for teaching duty, but there was no guarantee. It's pretty lousy that you have to re-up before it's time to talk to the detailer about your next set of orders, so then you're stuck with what you get. Anyway, I'm just not lifer material. The navy was a means to an end for me, and I wanted to reap the financial benefits. I figured every year I spent after my first enlistment would cost me thousands I could be making in the real world, and I was right.

BTW: There were some niceties of my time.

I was a "Summer Camp" bootcamp type. I went to NTC Orlando for both Bootcamp and BE&E. (Which no longer exists... damn them!)

Which was a nice offset to my next little over 2 years in Groton, CT. The armpit of New England...

And, having finished first in school in Groton, got my pick of billets..... I picked the Hampton out of Norfolk.... Which was nice, being from Virginia Beach next door (anytime you can get stationed in your "backyard" is nice).

I got Great Mistakes, Illinois, for boot and A-school. I ended up spending a year to the day there. That place sucked ass. The weather was miserable, and the food was almost inedible. I hate McDonald's, but the galley food was so bad I ate there instead.

I got second pick of orders out of A-school (after the class leader), and chose Aegis computer school in Dahlgren, VA. It was a sleepy, middle-of-nowhere place, but near enough to Fredericksburg and DC that it didn't totally suck. I even took a trip down to VA Beach, but I was not impressed. The base was fantastic, though. It felt like going to college, and the food was terrific.

Then there was the ship, which definitely had its issues... you submariners get barracks in home port, but single surface sailors live on the ship. They didn't have any barracks space for single guys. In '97 they finally approved VHA/BAQ for single sailors E5 and above when barracks were not available. An apartment in downtown Waikiki doesn't suck.

"And a huge majority of people who see combat go back with post-traumatic stress syndrome. Having irrational fear, that "the enemy" is still around them, trying to kill them. Waking up with nightmares, of murdering countless faceless people. Walking along roads, surrounded by dead, rotting bodies. As I said, they estimate that 1\3 of our war veterans will be treated for it. As my philosophy professor who fought in Vietnam said, the only people who glorify war are those who have never seen it. After saying that, he usually smiles, and says, "Ah, the smell of human intestines, in the morning." So, playing the 'bravery' card is childish, and it means nothing."

Speaking as a combat veteran, and someone who knows a large number of them (including people currently over in the sandbox), I haven't met ANYONE with PTSD, and no, that's not some brave chest thumping.

I have met people with PTSD here in the US, but they are all victims of domestic abuse.

I'm not glorifying war, but if you're going to hand out proclamations on PTSD, at least you could be someone who has "been there, done that".

As it stands, it looks like you couldn't hack being in the service at all, much less go to war. And I believe the Royal Navy will find the same problems.

In that, I have similarities to the FC type I saw in here Just a different place... And a-abit more involved... FT's on fast-attack subs, are more like combining a FC and an OS into a single rate.

My world was my computer room, right below Combat. It was my workcenter and my watch station. I loved the fact that I didn't have people standing over me all the time, and had way more independence than pretty much anyone else on board. I could stand a 12-hour watch in there easily, getting all my maintenance and cleaning assignments done at the same time. And when the work was done, I could watch movies or play Playstation with the other FCs and GMMs.

Besides, you know what OS stands for, don't you? "Obviously stupid."

...from France in 1740. First servicemember: French and Indian War.(on the british side) Monsieur Maurais was the definition of a traitor ...Those days he would have been hanged.

Good thing any American today can openly join any side...any cause he considers just...without being labeled a Traitor... or sent to Guantanamo ;)

Because you know we are better than in those dark days...we are more civilized.

Monsieur Maurais was the definition of a traitor ...Those days he would have been hanged.

Good thing any American today can openly join any side...any cause he considers just...without being labeled a Traitor... or sent to Guantanamo ;)

Because you know we are better than in those dark days...we are more civilized.

Good thing the French is from my father's side and that particular period of military service is from my mother's English/Scotch-Irish side.

edit: Might I also add that I said colonist/British side and that you editted my words to omit colonist.

BTW: There were some niceties of my time.

I was a "Summer Camp" bootcamp type. I went to NTC Orlando for both Bootcamp and BE&E. (Which no longer exists... damn them!)

Which was a nice offset to my next little over 2 years in Groton, CT. The armpit of New England...

And, having finished first in school in Groton, got my pick of billets..... I picked the Hampton out of Norfolk.... Which was nice, being from Virginia Beach next door (anytime you can get stationed in your "backyard" is nice).

Hey hey don't badmouth Groton...

...yeah ok. At least you didn't have to grow up there.

edit: Might I also add that I said colonist/British side and that you editted my words to omit colonist.
in 1740 Both the French and english had their "colonials"...ever heard of Quebec?

the only side that did not have colonials were the Natives.

you can say it was the French colonials VS the British colonials...

I prefer to say French VS British (simpler)...But if its a big deal for you I will add Colonial too.

Family came over from France in 1740. First servicemember: French and Indian War(colonial/british side) Good thing the French is from my father's side and that particular period of military service is from my mother's English/Scotch-Irish side.
Im asuming that its your great-great-grand dad (and not his Irish wife) ...who went to War against France.

so he was indeed a Frenchman (who hapenned to be Married to an Irish woman.) picking arms against his French compatriots...

BTW I dont have nothing against that...

but the Bushites would send him to Guantanamo all the same...

Imagine an US/UK/Aussi citizen who says to the Guantanamo Guards
"But..but...my wife is from Pakistan/Afghan/vietnam/etc"...
they would laugh at him, and play the naked Pyramid game again...

Im asuming that its your great-great-grand dad (and not his Irish wife) ...who went to War against France.

so he was indeed a Frenchman (who hapenned to be Married to an Irish woman.) picking arms against his French compatriots...

BTW I dont have nothing against that...

but the Bushites would send him to Guantanamo all the same...

Imagine an US/UK/Aussi citizen who says to the Guantanamo Guards
"But..but...my wife is from Pakistan/Afghan/vietnam/etc"...
they would laugh at him, and play the naked Pyramid game again...

Dude, my mother's and father's sides of the family weren't in contact with each other that far back...holy crap, I'm not some inbred redneck. The ancestors on my mother's side took care of the military service from the French and Indian Wars through Vietnam and a little of my generation, and my father's side has been from WWII to today. The French in me didn't fight in the French and Indian War...the English/Scotch-Irish side of the family did.

Speaking as a combat veteran, and someone who knows a large number of them (including people currently over in the sandbox), I haven't met ANYONE with PTSD, and no, that's not some brave chest thumping.

I have met people with PTSD here in the US, but they are all victims of domestic abuse.


Then count yourself very lucky. A Royal marine friend of mine was in the Falklands and saw some awful things. He was medically discharged in 1985 and climbed into a whisky bottle never to come out again. He killed himself in 1997. As far as I know, before the conflict he was a very well adjusted person. PTSD does exist, and I believe that one of the primary goals of military recruiters all over the world should be to ensure that people who could be susceptible to this sort of psychological damage are excluded from the military, not only for their own safety, but for the safety of other servicemen and women as well.

Then count yourself very lucky. A Royal marine friend of mine was in the Falklands and saw some awful things. He was medically discharged in 1985 and climbed into a whisky bottle never to come out again. He killed himself in 1997. As far as I know, before the conflict he was a very well adjusted person. PTSD does exist, and I believe that one of the primary goals of military recruiters all over the world should be to ensure that people who could be susceptible to this sort of psychological damage are excluded from the military, not only for their own safety, but for the safety of other servicemen and women as well.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist - it just doesn't exist in the rampant numbers that some people would have you believe.

I do believe it also has something to do with the type of combat you're in as well as your disposition beforehand.

Being under constant shelling seems to be more unnerving than anything else. It's one thing to see the dead and wounded - it's another to live under constant shellfire and random death.

Dude, my mother's and father's sides of the family weren't in contact with each other that far back...holy crap, I'm not some inbred redneck. The ancestors on my mother's side took care of the military service from the French and Indian Wars through Vietnam and a little of my generation, and my father's side has been from WWII to today. The French in me didn't fight in the French and Indian War...the English/Scotch-Irish side of the family did.Its all good...

and like I say...I your G-G-G-father would had chosen to figth vs the French...I would not mind at all.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist - it just doesn't exist in the rampant numbers that some people would have you believe.

I do believe it also has something to do with the type of combat you're in as well as your disposition beforehand.

Being under constant shelling seems to be more unnerving than anything else. It's one thing to see the dead and wounded - it's another to live under constant shellfire and random death.

I'd tend to agree with you there. The problem with Iraq, i believe, is that now you have a different sort of warfare, similiar to where I served in French Somaliland. Geurilla warfare can be highly taxing on troops - not knowing whether that young boy with the basket is really carrying his lunch or a hand grenade. The psychological pressure can be enormous. Expect to see a lot more cases of PTSD coming out of Iraq now the conflict has become one of a geurilla nature.

I got into the AEF program (they hadn't yet added the C) in 1993, just as they were reducing the benefits. The enlistment bonus had been cancelled just a few months prior, meaning I got to go to school with guys who had gotten it. Another change was to the advancement... instead of making E4 out of A-school, you had to serve the minimum time in rate. We were advanced to E2 out of boot, then had to serve the minimum of 9 months before putting on E3 (which coincided with the end of A-school) and then 6 months before E4 (which for me, coincided with the end of C-school).

I know... It wasn't but a couple of years after me that they did away with the E-3/E-4 idea to E-2/E-3... Glad I missed it, personally. I did begin seeing the effect by 1995 though.... When our average number of E-3's and below more than doubled (When I first got to the Hampton in 1993, we had a total of 2 E-3's and 1 E-2 aboard, all non-rates, striking for rates... 2 as A-gangers [non-nuclear MM's) and two as TM's [which, from what I hear, are MM's now...]).


Through a weird twist of fate, I put on E4 on December 16th, which for accounting purposes backdated my eligibility based on time in rate all the way back to June (I made the cutoff by two weeks). The next advancement cycle began with testing in March and would award advancements the following June. For paperwork purposes, I would have my minimum 1 year time in rate and was therefore eligible to take the March exam. I took it, and blew it out of the water, and advanced my first time up. FC's were advancing to E5 after 2-3 test cycles at that time, so needless to say I pissed a lot of people off. I'd only just shown up at the ship in February.

The advancement level of FT's to E-5 in my time was phenomenal. Which is surprising, considering most of the time you end up taking a test on a "system" you don't know. They gear the FT exams around a "pet" CCS. The available at my time, were the AN/BSY-1 (Busy-One), CCS Mk1 and Mk118. It's ridiculous really, because we're NEC'ed into a specific system/boat (I was an 1179 AN/BSY-1 tech). Luckily my time around Busy-One was their pet... Thought CCS Mk1 would have been cake as well.


It also meant I had one shot at E6 before my six-year enlistment was up. I had no interest, because by the time I got paid for it, I'd only get a few checks before I separated. Meantime, I would be eligible for all the crappy first-class jobs on a surface combatant... divisional DCPO, messdecks master-at-arms, berthing compartment supervisor, etc. I had a computer room full of amateurs who needed all the training I could give them before they were on their own, so I had more important things to do. So I planned to christmas tree the test. My DIVO wasn't too happy about that, and he eventually bribed me to take the test seriously. I did answer the questions to the best of my ability, but I refused to study, and still got a 70 on the thing. With a pretty good, but not great, eval, and zero award points, I still managed to miss the cutoff by only 3 points. My DIVO seemed to take it personally that I didn't make it. Weird... especially since he was a short-timer, too.


Luckily my position only changes with transfer. FT's are mandatory sea/surface rotation every 4 years. I would have loved sea duty again. Luckily DCPO's are CPO's on subs... So I didn't have to worry about that... PO1's generally just become the "Work Center Supervisor".


I would have liked going to shore for teaching duty, but there was no guarantee. It's pretty lousy that you have to re-up before it's time to talk to the detailer about your next set of orders, so then you're stuck with what you get. Anyway, I'm just not lifer material. The navy was a means to an end for me, and I wanted to reap the financial benefits. I figured every year I spent after my first enlistment would cost me thousands I could be making in the real world, and I was right.

Teaching would have kicked ass. But chances are I would have been slapped on a Sub Tender or put at a weapons depo, and been counting bullets for my next 4.... Not something one generally looks forward to.


I got Great Mistakes, Illinois, for boot and A-school. I ended up spending a year to the day there. That place sucked ass. The weather was miserable, and the food was almost inedible. I hate McDonald's, but the galley food was so bad I ate there instead.

Yep, heard the Great Mistakes Horror stories from people at Submarine School.... Orlando was far better, or in my case the opposite (considering I was there over the summer... Florida + Fire Retardant Dungarees = Hell... LITERALLY).


I got second pick of orders out of A-school (after the class leader), and chose Aegis computer school in Dahlgren, VA. It was a sleepy, middle-of-nowhere place, but near enough to Fredericksburg and DC that it didn't totally suck. I even took a trip down to VA Beach, but I was not impressed. The base was fantastic, though. It felt like going to college, and the food was terrific.

Out of A-school, I was first.... And one of the only two to knab AN/BSY-1 "C" schools... #2, FT3 Holt went CCS Mk1.... Which I expected.... and #3 joined me in AN/BSY-1.... The rest went to CCS Mk1. Luckily no one had to endure Mk 118 (Trident) and their 72 week C school... I would have hated boomer duty. At least we hunter-killers actually see action.... Making holes in the water for 4 months isn't my idea of "fun".


Then there was the ship, which definitely had its issues... you submariners get barracks in home port, but single surface sailors live on the ship. They didn't have any barracks space for single guys. In '97 they finally approved VHA/BAQ for single sailors E5 and above when barracks were not available. An apartment in downtown Waikiki doesn't suck.

Yes, homeport barracks, easy availability to VHA/BAQ (it's cake to get it as a submariner) and the food budget they give us are definite pluses to submarine duty. Wouldn't have traded sub-duty for anything....

Hey hey don't badmouth Groton...

...yeah ok. At least you didn't have to grow up there.

Yes, I count that as positive.

But Groton still sucks. I was glad to head back home after school there. Gave me more appreciation of my home town.

I'd tend to agree with you there. The problem with Iraq, i believe, is that now you have a different sort of warfare, similiar to where I served in French Somaliland. Geurilla warfare can be highly taxing on troops - not knowing whether that young boy with the basket is really carrying his lunch or a hand grenade. The psychological pressure can be enormous. Expect to see a lot more cases of PTSD coming out of Iraq now the conflict has become one of a geurilla nature.
The pressure varies widely depending on where you are in Iraq. I have friends in the Shiite areas who haven't heard a single gunshot or explosion in nearly a year. Others who are in the Sunni areas are in a state of constant vigilance.

But I have a hard time with hearing that from a guy (the one who started this thread) who couldn't even hang long enough to make it into the service. One might expect that if he was exposed to a truly stressful experience, it would be a disaster.

<SNIP> (orginal post)

I feel for you, man.

I feel for you, man.
I don't. He reminds me of this guy: http://www.m90.org/gallery/video/hustle0-2377.wmv

The pressure varies widely depending on where you are in Iraq. I have friends in the Shiite areas who haven't heard a single gunshot or explosion in nearly a year. Others who are in the Sunni areas are in a state of constant vigilance.

But I have a hard time with hearing that from a guy (the one who started this thread) who couldn't even hang long enough to make it into the service. One might expect that if he was exposed to a truly stressful experience, it would be a disaster.

Exactly my point. I'm sure that as a person he is a very nice guy, but totally unsuited to military life - so why were recruiters so desperate to enlist him? My personal opinion is that recruiters should concentrate more on quality than quantity - not entirely practical, I know, but if we wish to reduce the chance of PTSD becoming a major factor amongst combat vets, then it will become a necessity.

I am a serving member of the British army, i think that this person recruiting experiance was not very good. In britain the recruiting process is alot better. But i think that spitting on a soldier is out of line. If I ever met some one had done that i would kill him on the spot. Us men are willing to give up our lives for you and that is how much respect you give us. Im sorry but that is way out of line.

Right now my friends are sticking their necks out to train Iraqi soldiers to better their own country. When soldiers got to Iraq, they dismantled torture chambers, children's prisons, and dirty chemical bombs. Those very few examples of stuff that doesn't happen in america were all relics of Sadaam's rule. When you stop living on cloud nine, let the human race know.

I'm sorry to hear that you've felt mistreated, but it is nothing. If a recruiter seeks out someone they feel wants to join the armed forces, it's a natural reaction for them to try and clench the deal. It is irresponsible for them to pick on you if you change your mind, but they don't see a bonus until you reach Advanced Individual Training after Basic is complete.

I got good opportunities training with Austrailian, British and Polish soldiers around the world, and I must say, the vast majority of them are outstanding people who would back you up when you need it the most. American soldiers are no different, except perhaps, like the British before us, we have an obligation to put on our best face all the time because we are in the limelight all the time.

It sounds like this recruiter let down his guard and let his emotions get the better of him, but shame on you for thinking your experience warrents "US Military Recruiting Is Outright Evil". Don't worry, if you spit on me, I'll just break your jaw, I'd rather have you learn something, then murder a fellow american.

"1st ID", "3rd ID" is not code for Reservists or National Guard, the first to hit the ground was in the majority Regular Army. But I would be remiss if I didn't say they(ARNG and Reserves) don't help us out a great deal. The whole army is a big family, and despite your 'active' or other status, we all pitch in together. Those not in regular army understand why they have less benefits, they are not 24/7/365. While we all are deployed, we all get the same benefits however, and the same risks. Regular Army just sacrifices a great deal more time preparing for war.

Spc "Ski"
US Army
Mannheim, Germany (hooray!)

I ship off next year. Abandoning your country as a "conscientious objector" is the epitome of cowardice. If you don't want to die for the rights you were given solely by basis of your fortunate birth, then leave. We don't need you.

If a foreign nation is landing on our shores, killing our people, and taking our land, then hand me a gun. Otherwise, people like you can drink a nice tall glass of STFU.

I know... It wasn't but a couple of years after me that they did away with the E-3/E-4 idea to E-2/E-3... Glad I missed it, personally. I did begin seeing the effect by 1995 though.... When our average number of E-3's and below more than doubled (When I first got to the Hampton in 1993, we had a total of 2 E-3's and 1 E-2 aboard, all non-rates, striking for rates... 2 as A-gangers [non-nuclear MM's) and two as TM's [which, from what I hear, are MM's now...]).

It sounds like you guys were pretty top-heavy, then, which explains why you got out of the crappy jobs as an E6. On a surface ship, Deck Division is one of the biggest on board, so you have a lot of non-rated seamen. And since we didn't have nuclear power, there was plenty of room for non-rated firemen, as well. Then there's all the rates who don't get accelerated to E4, so you'd have a lot of E3 and below who went to an A-school.

But since Combat Systems department was almost all AEF guys, E4s still had to do their share of grunt work. As an E5 I was immune to berthing cleaning, mess decks duty, and a lot of the working parties. I also served as work center supervisor, and most of the work centers were supervised by E5s. E6s were LPOs, DCPOs, and collateral duty ho's.



The advancement level of FT's to E-5 in my time was phenomenal. Which is surprising, considering most of the time you end up taking a test on a "system" you don't know. They gear the FT exams around a "pet" CCS. The available at my time, were the AN/BSY-1 (Busy-One), CCS Mk1 and Mk118. It's ridiculous really, because we're NEC'ed into a specific system/boat (I was an 1179 AN/BSY-1 tech). Luckily my time around Busy-One was their pet... Thought CCS Mk1 would have been cake as well.
It was the same with FC exams, and my system had all of two questions on it. There are a whole lot of FC systems, and this one seemed focused around gun systems like the Mk 86 GFCS. Luckily, a Tomahawker friend came into the computer room to bs with me the night before on watch, and he asked me if I'd studied radar collimation and battery alignment. I hadn't, so he blitzed me with a bunch of questions, and gave me the answers. And I'll be damned if every one of his questions didn't turn up on that test.

Teaching would have kicked ass. But chances are I would have been slapped on a Sub Tender or put at a weapons depo, and been counting bullets for my next 4.... Not something one generally looks forward to.
As I mentioned before, they were sticking people with recruiting duty when I left. There is no way in hell I would have done that. Other than teaching, that left shore support facilities, which meant partial sea duty, or going back out to sea on another ship. Surface guys don't have a mandatory rotation back to shore. My brother is on his second enlistment, and his second consecutive ship.

Out of A-school, I was first.... And one of the only two to knab AN/BSY-1 "C" schools... #2, FT3 Holt went CCS Mk1.... Which I expected.... and #3 joined me in AN/BSY-1.... The rest went to CCS Mk1. Luckily no one had to endure Mk 118 (Trident) and their 72 week C school... I would have hated boomer duty. At least we hunter-killers actually see action.... Making holes in the water for 4 months isn't my idea of "fun".
The class leader was the guy who was in charge of the class, not the guy who finished first. He was pretty average academically. I actually finished third in A-school. The top guy was a Coastie who had a bachelor's in electronics engineering, and he'd just accelerated into my class. Obviously he wasn't up for orders with us. The next guy was my buddy from boot, but he put in for ROTC and got picked up under the nursing program, so he was just killing time in school until they did something else with him. Even as the third guy, I was a DMG. It was a pretty competitive class.

We had a wide variety to choose from. We had two Aegis track II computer (one was pulled and given to a guy outside our class), two Aegis track I computer, two AN/SPY1-A, one Aegis FCS/ORTS, two Tomahawk, two Mk 92 (an awful combination gun and missile system only found on frigates), two CIWS, and two RAM (rolling airframe missile, at the time an experimental close-in defense system based on CIWS but using missiles). The class leader showed his intelligence by taking a Mk 92 with the first pick, which left me my desired Aegis Track II computer. The third pick was hilarious. When he was up he asked, "I heard that ORTS sucks. Is that true?" Then he went ahead and took it anyway. Luckily for him, when he got to Dahlgren, his class wasn't full, and got cancelled. They offered him a seat in a track I computer class instead, and he took it.

My C-school was ridiculously competitive. The class average was over 96, meaning we were the first honor grad CLASS. The command made a pretty big deal out of that. I actually finished fourth (of 12), and was one of the honor grads, but orders came in pretty early, and I had just messed up a lab that dropped me to 10th. But for some reason nobody wanted Hawaii, and they fell to me. My choices at that point were a DDG out of Pearl, a CG out of Pearl, or a DDG pre-comm unit in Bath, Maine, ultimately destined for the West Coast (meaning either San Diego or Pearl). I'd had enough snow in Great Mistakes to last a lifetime, so I took the bigger ship (CG) out of Pearl.

The lab was pretty stupid, actually. We were supposed to run self-tests on our console unit, which had a multiplexer below it so it could talk to more than one computer, for redundancy. The panels on the console and the multiplexer for self-tests were identical, and I'd managed to hop sections in the procedure without realizing it. I finally had to ask the instructor to help me get back on course, because I thought I'd done everything, and asking for instructor help costs 10 points. In a class where the average is above 96, that'll cost you a lot of rankings.

I managed to redeem myself on the final lab, where the class leader (an E6) was my lab partner, and he made an obvious and stupid mistake. I came along later and discovered it. And at graduation the next morning, I recounted the tale in front of everyone, including guests, but nobody knew he was in the room. Not only did I tell the tale with a flair that had everyone laughing, but then he reacted in such a way that made it even funnier.

But I lost 5 points for his stupid mistake, because it cost us so much time. The instructor had to throw us out of the lab and restore everything to the state it was when we started, and instructed us to do *everything* together. Otherwise I never would have caught him. You would think an experienced FC could operate a power panel by himself, wouldn't you?

Yes, homeport barracks, easy availability to VHA/BAQ (it's cake to get it as a submariner) and the food budget they give us are definite pluses to submarine duty. Wouldn't have traded sub-duty for anything....
At sea you sleep in a rack that someone else just got out of. Eww.

There are benefits to being a surface sailor when you're out at sea. Just being able to go outside and get some fresh air anytime during the day is a big plus. Each night they set darken ship and tell everyone the weatherdecks are off-limits, but one clear, full-mooned night I went out anyway. Thousands of miles beyond any human light source, the stars are breathtaking. Then there's all that cool navy stuff to see... UNREPs, VERTREPs, flight ops, etc. You get to shoot guns all the time, and they make part of the weatherdecks available to watch. We even shot them off for guests. And when we got to shoot missiles, we could watch that, too. Several ships in a line at the missile range firing out of their vertical launchers in turn is a pretty awesome sight. And because I had access to Combat, once I witnessed the firing, I got to go inside and watch the intercept. Of course, once the engagement was over, I had a crapload of work to do downstairs.

Then there's heavy weather, in which you get to find out who the pukers are, and walk on the bulkheads. And I don't imagine submariners get very many steel beach picnics.

You may have gotten a better deal in port, but the surface guys were having way more fun at sea.

"1st ID", "3rd ID" is not code for Reservists or National Guard, the first to hit the ground was in the majority Regular Army. But I would be remiss if I didn't say they(ARNG and Reserves) don't help us out a great deal. The whole army is a big family, and despite your 'active' or other status, we all pitch in together. Those not in regular army understand why they have less benefits, they are not 24/7/365. While we all are deployed, we all get the same benefits however, and the same risks. Regular Army just sacrifices a great deal more time preparing for war.

Depends on the state. California has the 40th infantry division. It also has over 18,000 in the army national guard, so its deserving of a divisionary title.

.... Us men are willing to give up our lives for you and that is how much respect you give us.Dont give up your Life for us...let me repeat that..do NOT give up your Life for us...

and most important... Do not kill Civileans in my name...Do not kill women and children in my name ...do not play piramid games in my name...

and when an iraqui widow spits in your face...dont whine about it.

Dont give up your Life for us...let me repeat that..do NOT give up your Life for us...

and most important... Do not kill Civileans in my name...Do not kill women and children in my name ...do not play piramid games in my name...

and when an iraqui widow spits in your face...dont whine about it.

You seem to forget that war is not clean. It never has, never will be. You also seem to forget that there will never be "peace", and no, stopping the U.S. from sticking it's nose in everyones business won't instantly make the world stop fighting. War is a natural human instinct, and there will always be the psychotic dictator who decides his country isn't big enough.

BTW, have you ever been to Iraq? If you have not than you have no right to tell the people who have whether they are right or wrong in being there.

Dont give up your Life for us...let me repeat that..do NOT give up your Life for us...

and most important... Do not kill Civileans in my name...Do not kill women and children in my name ...do not play piramid games in my name...

and when an iraqui widow spits in your face...dont whine about it.

they aren't sacrificing their lives for you necessarily it would appear, but many of us, indeed the majority of Americans, do respect their sacrifice.

I would just as soon they kill the bad guys (most of whom are combatants, not civilians in spite of your idealogical beliefs or simple ignorance would have you try to persuade us to believe).

Its a damn shame civilians die in war, but it is why war is so horrible, and not to be entered in lightly. If you want to blame somebody for Iraq, don't blame the troops. Blame Bush, the Senate, and the slight majority of voters who reelected Bush and the Republicans in charge of both Houses of Congress.

If you have not than you have no right to tell the people who have whether they are right or wrong in being there.I have every rigth to tell him to stop "protecting" me... If he wants to waste his miserable life... It is his rigth... If he expects the the rest of the world to say thanks...he is in for a surprise...cos most of the World do not aprove this War...and they perceive him as an opresor..

and if he ever gets spit in his face...he better not expect sympaty from me.

Ok here goes...I joined the National guard as an MP when i was 17, My JROTC instuctor told all of us who enlisted, that when they make promises make sure you always get it in writing, because he said that they are military's salesmen. All the recruiters were espically nice and weren't rude to me at all even when I told them I had chosen to go into the national guard, they all were nice and just wanted to know why i had chosen it (I chose it because they were offering me 75% paid tuition to any of the public colleges i decided to go into) and afterwords they were still nice to me. It seems as the originator of this thread had a bad experience with some recruiters and he feels that means that basically that all recruiters are bad and use evil methods , and that ain't true, if you felt they were rushing you, you could have asked them to step outside while you read the contract, as the kid who signed up for the reserves did when i walked to sign my enlistment for the guard. And for saying that soldiers should be spit on, lets just hope you have half a brain not to follow up your own advice. I have many friends in Iraq and have had to bury 2 who made the ultimate sacrifice, Even though I don't support why we went in, I support 100% the troops that are there because even thogh they might have had a bad experience with thier recruiters they are still there, risking their necks while your able to sit down in your comfortable and be able write this crap...

As for the Originator of this thread just two more comments from me ...
1) If you felt the recruiters insulted you in anyway, you could have asked to speak to that recruiter's supervisor, and then ask him if you could fill out a complaint against him
2)From the way you talk (i do not mean to be insulting if it sounds like it.)
I would suggest that you might not want to join any military service, In the U.S. or elsewhere, because what ever miltary service you want to join, domestic or foriegn, they will say things and make verbal promises that aren't worth a grain of a salt
_________________________________________________________________
I believe in modaration , that is why I only smoke one cigar at a time
-Mark Twain

I have every rigth to tell him to stop "protecting" me... If he wants to waste his miserable life... It is his rigth... If he expects the the rest of the world to say thanks...he is in for a surprise...cos most of the World do not aprove this War...and they perceive him as an opresor..

and if he ever gets spit in his face...he better not expect sympaty from me.
In Iraq, the Kurds and the Shiites generally do not see the Americans as oppressors. The Sunnis do, but that's because they were the ones in power under Saddam.

The Kurds and Shiites were rather tired of being shot by the hundreds of thousands into mass graves - tired of having every penny diverted from their labor to Saddam's sons - tired of being gassed - tired of having their canals drained - well, the list goes on.

There are a lot of happier people there now. The ones who are unhappy are the Sunnis who lost their power, status, and privileges - and who don't believe they'll get a fair shake from the people they once abused.

The Kurds and Shiites do want us to leave - but not just yet. The Sunnis wish we would leave now - they have aspirations of regaining power one last time over the Kurds and Shiites.

...the Shiites generally do not see the Americans as oppressors. How would you know that?

How would you know that?
I have a lot of friends over there. In various areas around Iraq.

Some places in Iraq haven't had ANY violence at all since the Americans showed up.

You need to either go there, or hook up with a lot of people who are there (both civilians and military).

Just relying on "journalists" is like relying on a priest to tell you what Jesus said.

It sounds like you guys were pretty top-heavy, then, which explains why you got out of the crappy jobs as an E6. On a surface ship, Deck Division is one of the biggest on board, so you have a lot of non-rated seamen. And since we didn't have nuclear power, there was plenty of room for non-rated firemen, as well. Then there's all the rates who don't get accelerated to E4, so you'd have a lot of E3 and below who went to an A-school.

Yeah, deck div was something thrown together in port only. Didn't have one at sea. And yes, very top heavy. Only between 11 to 13 officers, and about 117 enlisted. A total of about 12 E-7's and above, maybe 25 E-6's, and about 3-5 E-3's and below, the rest are all E-4's and E-5's. Not surprising considering the majority of the crew (RM's, ET's, STS's FT's and MM/EM and ET Nukes) are all ATF/AEF... Probably one of the only places where you would regularly see E-5's and E-4's cranking (galley duty while doing quals), and also be NUB's (Non-Usefull Bodies), a nickname for those who haven't earned their Dolphins yet (on subs, the Submarine Survice pin is a mandatory qualification, and you have 9 months to do it in, otherwise they disqualify you for sub-duty). Typically you can finish it in 3-5 months.... I did it in 5, though it was mostly because I had a delay on my helmsman-planesman qualifications, due to having to wait to stand during a couple of casualty drills to satisfy the qual. To make the qual, you have to qualify 2 at-sea watch stations, 2 in-port watch-stations, complete Reaction Force qualifications (repel borders), and demonstrate a working knowledge of every single ship-board system, + damage control quals.


But since Combat Systems department was almost all AEF guys, E4s still had to do their share of grunt work. As an E5 I was immune to berthing cleaning, mess decks duty, and a lot of the working parties. I also served as work center supervisor, and most of the work centers were supervised by E5s. E6s were LPOs, DCPOs, and collateral duty ho's.

Yeah, alot different.


It was the same with FC exams, and my system had all of two questions on it. There are a whole lot of FC systems, and this one seemed focused around gun systems like the Mk 86 GFCS. Luckily, a Tomahawker friend came into the computer room to bs with me the night before on watch, and he asked me if I'd studied radar collimation and battery alignment. I hadn't, so he blitzed me with a bunch of questions, and gave me the answers. And I'll be damned if every one of his questions didn't turn up on that test.

Well, luckily with some of it, like weapons, it is pretty standard regardless of your particular CCS. Mk-48 and Mk-48 ADCAP torpedoes, Harpoon and A,C and D model Tomahawks, and SLIMM Mines.... The T-hull FT's would have more problems then us Fast Attack types, not having a working knowledge of Tomahawks, Mines and Harpoons. But they would pet out the actual Combat Control system.... There were 3 in my time, there are 5 now in use (Mk118[Trident], CCS Mk1[Sturgeon and Flights 1-3 LA class] and AN/BSY-1[Flight-4 LA Class].... Added are AN/BSY-2[Seawolf] and CCS Mk2[Upgrades to the Flight-3 LA Class]).... The AN/BSY-1 and 2 are the most difficult, because they combine Firecontrol and Sonar into a single system. (The "CC" set computer and "AS" computer talk to one another directly, and run the same set of software... They are identical machines... with differentiated "peripherals")


As I mentioned before, they were sticking people with recruiting duty when I left. There is no way in hell I would have done that. Other than teaching, that left shore support facilities, which meant partial sea duty, or going back out to sea on another ship. Surface guys don't have a mandatory rotation back to shore. My brother is on his second enlistment, and his second consecutive ship.

Yeah, I wish I could have hit sea again on another sub. Would have taken it in a heartbeat.


The class leader was the guy who was in charge of the class, not the guy who finished first. He was pretty average academically. I actually finished third in A-school. The top guy was a Coastie who had a bachelor's in electronics engineering, and he'd just accelerated into my class. Obviously he wasn't up for orders with us. The next guy was my buddy from boot, but he put in for ROTC and got picked up under the nursing program, so he was just killing time in school until they did something else with him. Even as the third guy, I was a DMG. It was a pretty competitive class.

We didn't have a "class leader".... Our typical FT "A" and "C" school classes were too small to bother with anything like that. My "A" school had a total of 14 people in it, and my two "C" schools (with the same class members) were only 8 (including the three fleet-returnees)....


We had a wide variety to choose from. We had two Aegis track II computer (one was pulled and given to a guy outside our class), two Aegis track I computer, two AN/SPY1-A, one Aegis FCS/ORTS, two Tomahawk, two Mk 92 (an awful combination gun and missile system only found on frigates), two CIWS, and two RAM (rolling airframe missile, at the time an experimental close-in defense system based on CIWS but using missiles). The class leader showed his intelligence by taking a Mk 92 with the first pick, which left me my desired Aegis Track II computer. The third pick was hilarious. When he was up he asked, "I heard that ORTS sucks. Is that true?" Then he went ahead and took it anyway. Luckily for him, when he got to Dahlgren, his class wasn't full, and got cancelled. They offered him a seat in a track I computer class instead, and he took it.

My C-school was ridiculously competitive. The class average was over 96, meaning we were the first honor grad CLASS. The command made a pretty big deal out of that. I actually finished fourth (of 12), and was one of the honor grads, but orders came in pretty early, and I had just messed up a lab that dropped me to 10th. But for some reason nobody wanted Hawaii, and they fell to me. My choices at that point were a DDG out of Pearl, a CG out of Pearl, or a DDG pre-comm unit in Bath, Maine, ultimately destined for the West Coast (meaning either San Diego or Pearl). I'd had enough snow in Great Mistakes to last a lifetime, so I took the bigger ship (CG) out of Pearl.

The lab was pretty stupid, actually. We were supposed to run self-tests on our console unit, which had a multiplexer below it so it could talk to more than one computer, for redundancy. The panels on the console and the multiplexer for self-tests were identical, and I'd managed to hop sections in the procedure without realizing it. I finally had to ask the instructor to help me get back on course, because I thought I'd done everything, and asking for instructor help costs 10 points. In a class where the average is above 96, that'll cost you a lot of rankings.

Our labs were cake too... Though I had an interesting experience in my final lab in my maintenance school. The lab had "2 problems" which needed fixing.... I found one problem... and after some time, could not find anything else wrong. The instructor reviewed my material, and realized I solved the SECOND problem, before the FIRST one.... IOW, I should not have been able to figure out the second, without having found the first and fixed it..... He was curious... So I asked him what should have happened... He gave me the situation, and I went to the manuals... After moving around the flow charts... I pulled a card in the Mk82 Mod 3 Weapons Control Console which handled OTH mission data... It was the "faulty" card... What had happened is, the card was "supposed" to have a fault, made by shorting part of the card with a wire.... The solder joints had come loose and the wire had fallen into the rail of the card sat in..... I still passed, since I figured out why the system was working.... when it shouldn't have.


I managed to redeem myself on the final lab, where the class leader (an E6) was my lab partner, and he made an obvious and stupid mistake. I came along later and discovered it. And at graduation the next morning, I recounted the tale in front of everyone, including guests, but nobody knew he was in the room. Not only did I tell the tale with a flair that had everyone laughing, but then he reacted in such a way that made it even funnier.

But I lost 5 points for his stupid mistake, because it cost us so much time. The instructor had to throw us out of the lab and restore everything to the state it was when we started, and instructed us to do *everything* together. Otherwise I never would have caught him. You would think an experienced FC could operate a power panel by himself, wouldn't you?

In the AN/BSY-1 system, our WCC's use 400Hz power, and we FT's have responsibilities over the Frequency convertors (they convert 60hz 240V power from the TG's to 120V 400hz power for our WCC's and some of the radiomen's equipment)... One of the lab instructors, pulled the power off of one of those units in one of our labs, without SECURING the power to the unit first... He survived, but wasn't an instructor much longer.... Yes, you would expect an experienced FT's to think better than that, especially one who is an instructor.


At sea you sleep in a rack that someone else just got out of. Eww.


Yep, called "hot-racking"... Either that, or your sharing a bunk next to a torpedo (which I've done before).... Neither one is entirely desirable. But Subs are designed as weapon platforms with engineering space.... Crew is an afterthought to the engineers who design them...


There are benefits to being a surface sailor when you're out at sea. Just being able to go outside and get some fresh air anytime during the day is a big plus. Each night they set darken ship and tell everyone the weatherdecks are off-limits, but one clear, full-mooned night I went out anyway. Thousands of miles beyond any human light source, the stars are breathtaking. Then there's all that cool navy stuff to see... UNREPs, VERTREPs, flight ops, etc. You get to shoot guns all the time, and they make part of the weatherdecks available to watch. We even shot them off for guests. And when we got to shoot missiles, we could watch that, too. Several ships in a line at the missile range firing out of their vertical launchers in turn is a pretty awesome sight. And because I had access to Combat, once I witnessed the firing, I got to go inside and watch the intercept. Of course, once the engagement was over, I had a crapload of work to do downstairs.

Then there's heavy weather, in which you get to find out who the pukers are, and walk on the bulkheads. And I don't imagine submariners get very many steel beach picnics.

Well, we don't have much weather.... Hell, been under a hurricane before... smooth as glass when you're deep enough.

No picnics... I did get to "see" the outside though, the FTOW, QMOW and OOD are the only ones allowed to touch the periscopes.

At sea, it is always the same on a sub... We have no night/day rotation, or "work hours"... The entire crew operates on a 18 hour rotation (6 on, 12 off)... Berthing is always kept dark. The only time this changes is during drills.


You may have gotten a better deal in port, but the surface guys were having way more fun at sea.

Hey, I actually LIKED being at sea on the sub. It was plenty fun. Did my own share of TLAM launches, ELINT missions, SEAL delivery, tracking enemy ship movements.... It's actually cool how versatile our subs are... And the ammount of different missions you can be put on. And of course under-ice operations.... will never forget the Hampton...

http://www.geocities.com/tekcomputers/hampton.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/tekcomputers/hampton_command.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/tekcomputers/hampton_crest.jpg

Yeah, deck div was something thrown together in port only. Didn't have one at sea. And yes, very top heavy. Only between 11 to 13 officers, and about 117 enlisted. A total of about 12 E-7's and above, maybe 25 E-6's, and about 3-5 E-3's and below, the rest are all E-4's and E-5's. Not surprising considering the majority of the crew (RM's, ET's, STS's FT's and MM/EM and ET Nukes) are all ATF/AEF...

Err... RMs aren't AEF. They're just operators. Sitting in the air-conditioned and secured radio room doing nothing was what made RM the most popular rate to strike out of Deck. The ETs were responsible for maintaining the radio equipment.

Probably one of the only places where you would regularly see E-5's and E-4's cranking (galley duty while doing quals), and also be NUB's (Non-Usefull Bodies), a nickname for those who haven't earned their Dolphins yet (on subs, the Submarine Survice pin is a mandatory qualification, and you have 9 months to do it in, otherwise they disqualify you for sub-duty). Typically you can finish it in 3-5 months.... I did it in 5, though it was mostly because I had a delay on my helmsman-planesman qualifications, due to having to wait to stand during a couple of casualty drills to satisfy the qual. To make the qual, you have to qualify 2 at-sea watch stations, 2 in-port watch-stations, complete Reaction Force qualifications (repel borders), and demonstrate a working knowledge of every single ship-board system, + damage control quals.

The requirements for SW (surface warfare specialist) were pretty much the same as for SS. I called it "Naval Trivial Pursuit," because it was trivial, and because basically all you learned about the systems was random trivia. "Ooh, the evaporators can produce 3000 gallons (or whatever it was) of fresh water per day." It was not mandatory, and only the lifers pursued it, because it looked good on evals, was worth two award points, and you probably wouldn't pass a chief's board without it. If I had bothered with it, I would have been only an LOA away from making E6 my first time up. Then again, if I had actually been interested, I probably could have made up more points than that just by studying.

The one qual all surface sailors have to get is Advanced Damage Control. I think they give you six months to do both the basic and advanced. And it's a lot of material. I became an expert. Since putting on E5 so quickly got me out of cranking, my chief got even by sending me to a repair party for my GQ station. I spent three years down there before they finally had to send me to the computer room.

BTW... it's hilarious to me that you guys referred to new guys as NUBs. One of our guys came up with this whole ranking system for techs, where they were either nubs, wheels, or axles. Nubs just rode along on the wheels, contributing nothing. Wheels were people who carried their share of the load, and axles were the ones who were irreplaceable, where if they left the whole structure would collapse. I improved the model by adding an acronym for nub: New, useless b***h.

I was definitely nubby during my first six months or so on board, which is why
my putting on E5 pissed so many off. But I got the chance to talk to some of the guys from my division almost a year after I left, and found out that I had indeed been an axle before I split. Apparently the computer room became a disaster area for their next deployment. Not that I'm surprised... the new guys didn't really have much of a chance. The only one who had been on board long enough for me to teach him anything just wasn't a troubleshooter. I'm sure you know what I mean.

Well, luckily with some of it, like weapons, it is pretty standard regardless of your particular CCS. Mk-48 and Mk-48 ADCAP torpedoes, Harpoon and A,C and D model Tomahawks, and SLIMM Mines.... The T-hull FT's would have more problems then us Fast Attack types, not having a working knowledge of Tomahawks, Mines and Harpoons. But they would pet out the actual Combat Control system.... There were 3 in my time, there are 5 now in use (Mk118[Trident], CCS Mk1[Sturgeon and Flights 1-3 LA class] and AN/BSY-1[Flight-4 LA Class].... Added are AN/BSY-2[Seawolf] and CCS Mk2[Upgrades to the Flight-3 LA Class]).... The AN/BSY-1 and 2 are the most difficult, because they combine Firecontrol and Sonar into a single system. (The "CC" set computer and "AS" computer talk to one another directly, and run the same set of software... They are identical machines... with differentiated "peripherals")
With the exception of Tomahawk and Harpoon, the sensor is part of the fire control equipment. For instance, the guys who maintain the Mk86 GFCS are responsible for the SPQ-9 surface search/track radar as well as their computers, weapons consoles, and all the equipment that controls the gun. Their responsibility ends at the gun... the GMs handle that part.

Aegis is just too big for any one group to handle, so it's broken down into four elements: SPY-1 radar, computers, display, and FCS/ORTS (basically, miscellaneous). As a computer guy, therefore, I had neither a radar nor a gun, meaning a lot of general FC knowledge that would show up on a test, putting me at a disadvantage. Ultimately, though, it never mattered.


In the AN/BSY-1 system, our WCC's use 400Hz power, and we FT's have responsibilities over the Frequency convertors (they convert 60hz 240V power from the TG's to 120V 400hz power for our WCC's and some of the radiomen's equipment)... One of the lab instructors, pulled the power off of one of those units in one of our labs, without SECURING the power to the unit first... He survived, but wasn't an instructor much longer.... Yes, you would expect an experienced FT's to think better than that, especially one who is an instructor.

The 400Hz converters belonged to my division, because the FCS guys and the SPY guys were the biggest users of it. The FCS guys were directly responsible for it. Since I was in that division, I had to be familiar with the equipment in order to respond to casualty alarms on duty days, make sure they had enough coolant, etc. So I know what you're talking about.

Well, we don't have much weather.... Hell, been under a hurricane before... smooth as glass when you're deep enough.

The ship hit a typhoon right before I got there, so I missed that. But we hit some pretty nasty storms in particular around the southern coast of Australia. A storm has a way of making very ordinary tasks extraordinary. Like eating. Keeping your food and drink from flying across the room is an entertaining time. I used to enjoy sitting on a high stool in front of my work bench in the computer room, putting my feet up, and seeing if I could keep from getting thrown off. And if you can find a good excuse to go up there (and I did, because there is an Aegis display console up there), looking out the pilot house windows and seeing the whole bow disappear under a wave is pretty intense.

No picnics... I did get to "see" the outside though, the FTOW, QMOW and OOD are the only ones allowed to touch the periscopes.

A steel beach picnic is no big deal, really. They toted a grill out to the flight deck and burned some burgers, and they put out some sodas. We just kind of hung around outside for a while, ate, and bs'ed. But it's a nice change of pace, and gets some fresh air into your lungs and some color into your skin.

At sea, it is always the same on a sub... We have no night/day rotation, or "work hours"... The entire crew operates on a 18 hour rotation (6 on, 12 off)... Berthing is always kept dark. The only time this changes is during drills.
Everybody operated on a different schedule depending on their job. Watch supervisors got to write their own watch bills, and as computer work center supe I wrote mine. We stuck to 24-hour rotations, because it made it so much nicer to maintain a natural circadian rhythm, even if it was the mid shift. We rotated the watch every port visit. I might have the mid for three weeks at sea, then when we put in next, I would roll over to days. Usually we had three watchstanders, so we went with three sections and 8-hour watches, but there were some port and starboard times as well. Even then it wasn't too bad. Later on I was permitted to cross-train with the Display guys and put them on my watch for a 4-section bill. That kicked ass.

A lot of guys had it rough, though, since they had to stand watch and get their work done, and couldn't combine the two like I could. The Deck guys still had chipping and painting to do even though they were standing lookout or helmsman watches. The engineers got hosed on it, too. They would have watch rotations like 5 on, 10 off, and during one of those 10 off shifts they had working hours. Sucked to be them. And that's if they were three-section watches. Good luck to them if they were shorthanded and went to port and starboard.

As for berthing, it kinda sucked to have a night watch. Even at sea, berthing details cleaned every morning, with daily XO inspections following (which is why it sucked to be the first-class assigned as berthing PO for the month). And from about 4:00-10:00pm, closed-circuit TV pumped movies into the berthing lounge, and it could get a bit loud in there. The berthing cleaners had to turn on some lights, but you could close your curtains, and they did their best to keep quiet. As for evenings, all you really could do is try to get an open rack in a quieter area.

That original post strikes me as a little self-absorbed and pretty narcissistic. I think the recruiters would be better of leaving this little one alone.

And you got a 96 on that test?

Hrmmm...something isn't right here. Anyone dumb enough to join the military does not score that high.

I got a 99, and was kept out because I had asthma as a child. I played football, basketball and tennis (all running-intensive sports) without croaking, so I figured I could handle being an officer in the Army or Navy.

I've also had jujitsu and judo training, so I figured that'd help. I should have kept my mouth shut about the asthma... because despite the 99 on the ASVAB and my explanations of athleticism/hand-to-hand combat training, the asthma was too big a red flag (apparently) to get over. lol

part of me wanted to go Delta... the dark side of me. hehe

I got a 99, and was kept out because I had asthma as a child. I played football, basketball and tennis (all running-intensive sports) without croaking, so I figured I could handle being an officer in the Army or Navy.

I've also had jujitsu and judo training, so I figured that'd help. I should have kept my mouth shut about the asthma... because despite the 99 on the ASVAB and my explanations of athleticism/hand-to-hand combat training, the asthma was too big a red flag (apparently) to get over. lol

part of me wanted to go Delta... the dark side of me. hehe
As I mentioned before, if you hadn't had an asthma attack since you were thirteen, you were clear, because asthma can be outgrown. Based on the sports history you listed, I'd say that was true for you. You must have had some paranoid recruiters, or else the standards were much higher (as sometimes happens during peacetime).

Err... RMs aren't AEF. They're just operators. Sitting in the air-conditioned and secured radio room doing nothing was what made RM the most popular rate to strike out of Deck. The ETs were responsible for maintaining the radio equipment.

Sub RM's are (and they also have their own seperate schools, including a different 'A' school), and were in the process (along with the QM's) of being turned into ET's... Effectively making "ET" the most common rate on a sub (with Nuke ET's, Radio ET's, and Navigational ET's). Sub RM's receieved most of the same electronics training as navigational ET's.

Initially you had "RM's" who worked and maintained their own equipment, "Navigational ET's" who worked and maintained all the navigational equipment, and QM's, who just maintained the charts... They combined the QM and Nav ET rates, and also made Radio ET's as well... Since they more or less were all technicians. It just required adding some extra training to the Nav ET's, to give them the same training as QM's. Our RM's weren't just "operators".

Not too odd, when you consider we never really had many "operator" type rates on subs (with limited crew capacity), almost every rate when I was in (and every rate now at present) were operational and maintenance. Like how we FT's on subs, also filled the same type of role OS's would on surface ships. Can't allow for too much specialization in sub crews.

Even our Medical Department was pretty much combination. With one single IDC (Independent Duty Corpsman... Basically a Medical Corpsman who can do everything a commissioned medical officer could do), who was called "the Doc". (They were abit different than most other rates on subs.... IDC's generally did surface duty for most of their Career, and the IDC school was open to E-6's and above, with more than 18 years in rate)... Ours was Senior Chief Pierce...


The requirements for SW (surface warfare specialist) were pretty much the same as for SS. I called it "Naval Trivial Pursuit," because it was trivial, and because basically all you learned about the systems was random trivia. "Ooh, the evaporators can produce 3000 gallons (or whatever it was) of fresh water per day." It was not mandatory, and only the lifers pursued it, because it looked good on evals, was worth two award points, and you probably wouldn't pass a chief's board without it. If I had bothered with it, I would have been only an LOA away from making E6 my first time up. Then again, if I had actually been interested, I probably could have made up more points than that just by studying.

Actually SS was more than trivia... It isn't about knowing trivial matters, but actually having working knowledge of HOW the systems worked, not just numbers.... Hell, my Weps got pissed at my Chief when he wanted me to know the "weight" of most of our missiles.... The Weps pulled me over, questioned me, and then ordered Chief Easterling to sign off. (BTW.. We hated Chief Easterling.... Subs used to have DP's..... They operated OTH data... FT's fixed their equipment.... Some years back, they decided to do away with the DP's and make the OTH operation part of FT's jobs.... So they reschooled most of the DP's..... HOWEVER, E-7's and above were not reschooled, they just waived that magic BUPERS wand and made them FT's.... FTC/SS Easterling was one of them.... Didn't know jack shit about FT's actual job, electronics, or even the basics of the AN/BSY-1 system... He couldn't even start the system if he wanted to.... Which just about any FT comming out of school could do blindfolded,with both hands tied....)


BTW... it's hilarious to me that you guys referred to new guys as NUBs. One of our guys came up with this whole ranking system for techs, where they were either nubs, wheels, or axles. Nubs just rode along on the wheels, contributing nothing. Wheels were people who carried their share of the load, and axles were the ones who were irreplaceable, where if they left the whole structure would collapse. I improved the model by adding an acronym for nub: New, useless b***h.

Hah, I like yours better....


With the exception of Tomahawk and Harpoon, the sensor is part of the fire control equipment. For instance, the guys who maintain the Mk86 GFCS are responsible for the SPQ-9 surface search/track radar as well as their computers, weapons consoles, and all the equipment that controls the gun. Their responsibility ends at the gun... the GMs handle that part.

Aegis is just too big for any one group to handle, so it's broken down into four elements: SPY-1 radar, computers, display, and FCS/ORTS (basically, miscellaneous). As a computer guy, therefore, I had neither a radar nor a gun, meaning a lot of general FC knowledge that would show up on a test, putting me at a disadvantage. Ultimately, though, it never mattered.


Yeah, ours was much smaller... So the "entire" FT department was 7 people... One chief, two first classes, two second classes, a third class, and a FTSN/SS (Which is a funny story.... He was a FT2/SS when I first came aboard, but got busted twice in masts while there.... The first time for skipping a watch, the second for royally screwing up the Weapons Control Panel in the torpedo room by crossthreading a interconnect...)

I actually met another FC after I got out, I could relate well to him, vice most other FC's, he used to be on one of those Hydrofoils they used to run in the Gulf.... They seemed to operate more like submarines (as a matter of compliment and concept), than most of the rest of the surface navy.

Our at-sea food still kicked the surface's ass though... A submarine, with a crew of ~120 had the same food budget as a Tike cruiser.... So, that was very nice...

Not too odd, when you consider we never really had many "operator" type rates on subs (with limited crew capacity), almost every rate when I was in (and every rate now at present) were operational and maintenance. Like how we FT's on subs, also filled the same type of role OS's would on surface ships. Can't allow for too much specialization in sub crews.
Most of the FC specialties had to operate their own equipment. In fact, only the Aegis computer and display guys did not have a watch station in combat. The SPY guys sat at a console operating the radar, the FCS guys controlled the launch of SM-2s and their Mk 99 FCS directors (used for terminal guidance), the Tomahawk/Harpoon guys operated their equipment and fired their own missiles, the Mk86 guys had their own consoles that nobody else knew how to operate, and the CIWS guys had their own local control consoles outside of combat. We didn't trust the OSs for the parts that really mattered. Come to think of it, I can't think of a single necessary watch station that they manned. What the hell were they doing up there all day?


Actually SS was more than trivia... It isn't about knowing trivial matters, but actually having working knowledge of HOW the systems worked, not just numbers....
There is just far too much equipment on a surface combatant to get deep in any particular subject. You could get a rough functional overview, and a few trivia notes, and that was it. A useful knowledge of all the equipment would take longer than a duty assignment.

Yeah, ours was much smaller... So the "entire" FT department was 7 people... One chief, two first classes, two second classes, a third class, and a FTSN/SS

Seven guys was the SPY workcenter at certain times. My division, Fire Control Division, was all Aegis techs, and ran about 19 people. Then you had CIWS and Mk86 FCs in Ordnance division (with the GMGs) and Tomahawk/Harpoon FCs in Strike (with the GMMs). Combat Systems Department was probably a little less than half FCs, and it included the GMs, STGs, TMs, and ETs.

I felt bad for the EWs and CTs. They were our kind of people, but for some unfortunate reason got stuck in Operations Department.

Our at-sea food still kicked the surface's ass though... A submarine, with a crew of ~120 had the same food budget as a Tike cruiser.... So, that was very nice...
I was on a Tike. I hope you spent the money better than our guys did. The food wasn't as bad as Great Lakes, but it wasn't good, either.

The worst was mid-rats. If I had the midwatch, my only chance to get anything to eat was at mid-rats, from 11:00pm-midnight, and then I would have to wait until I got off watch at 7:00am to get some breakfast, unless I had some food stashed away someplace. But the MSs never made anything for mid-rats. They just reheated whatever was too disgusting for anyone to eat at lunch or dinner. The only alternative was peanut butter/jelly sandwich stuff at the salad bar. 6 years later, I still can't stand to think about a PB&J.

I learned my lesson after my first deployment. The night before my next one, a couple buddies and I went on a shopping spree at Costco, and we bought a ton of non-perishable food. We also bought some sodas, so we'd have them for when the Hajii sodas showed up in the machine (if you've ever done a deployment in the Gulf, you know what I mean). We brought it back to the ship and hit it in the computer room under the deckplates. When we wanted sodas we took them out a sixer at a time and put them in the AC duct. It didn't make them cold, but at least they were less warm.

Most of the FC specialties had to operate their own equipment. In fact, only the Aegis computer and display guys did not have a watch station in combat. The SPY guys sat at a console operating the radar, the FCS guys controlled the launch of SM-2s and their Mk 99 FCS directors (used for terminal guidance), the Tomahawk/Harpoon guys operated their equipment and fired their own missiles, the Mk86 guys had their own consoles that nobody else knew how to operate, and the CIWS guys had their own local control consoles outside of combat. We didn't trust the OSs for the parts that really mattered. Come to think of it, I can't think of a single necessary watch station that they manned. What the hell were they doing up there all day?

Well, FT's manned their own, as did most other. The idea on subs was to limit the "operator" roles... And make all the techs combination maintenance and operational rates.

OS's, are general operational tacticians. CIC type stuff (which on subs is combined with typical "bridge" as a "control center")... They manage information, as opposed to equipment (such as IFF, CIC display info), and make tactical recommendations to OIC's... Typically the same duties a FT does on subs, in addition to our maintenance of the CCS, CSES, Weapons Control, and the electronic end of the Weapon Launch systems [the TM's, now MM's handling the mechanical end of the system]... You can think of their actual "field" as being tactical interpreters... Who assist OIC's in developing operational tactics during maneuvers.... OS's also, like we do, actual have "tactical schools" as part of their training structure...

In addition with Navigation, as we with FT's and QM/NET's can actuall ask the OOD or OIC to make course changes, recommend tactical changes in maneuvers... And work right under whoever is presently commanding the vessel [CO/XO/OOD] over the ships maneuvers, to assist them in developing their tactical model of the present situation during drills and battle.

IOW, we didn't just fix and operate... We literally interpreted the tactical situations for the officers... To alleviate as much work off them as possible (very much needed on a sub, where their is only one, or two officers in control at any given time having to make all the decisions).

We called the officer, even when at sea, who "had the con" (had control of the ship) the OOD whether in port or at sea...

For example: Say we were tracking an enemy movement.... And we needed a better range estimate to target.... I could actuall ask the OOD to change course, even recommending the new course and speed, to change Target Aspect, to better "lock down" the range by altering the tactical model and bearing-rate of target. Operationally submarines did not use "active" detection systems, we rely almost exclusively on passive systems, so we use TMA (Target Motion Analysis) against passive data from TOI's to development actual course/speed/range/depth of targets (Such as bearing-rate, screw noise, blade-count, deflection angle, etc.)... To peg a range down, off passive data, you usually attune the range at the given bearing, and then make a course change to alter target aspect... This will alter the bearing rate.... Discrepency will develop in the data "stack" from the target, if the range is off.... You can use the new data, in connection with the old, to attune the targets range and speed... I would make recommendation on the best course to take, to alter the aspect so as to tune the TOI's "target sollution"... We had to learn to do this with the CCS computers, or even if necessary without them manually using TMA either on paper, or completely mentally... You would also do quick TMA math in your head, even with the computer, to assist on developing the picture in the computer better.... I would also interpret passive data to indicate to the OOD a target "zig" (change in course/speed)..

OS's perform similar roles as this in the CIC on sruface ships... Assiting in developing "tactical pictures" of the situation.

I was on a Tike. I hope you spent the money better than our guys did. The food wasn't as bad as Great Lakes, but it wasn't good, either.

Just to give you an idea, a typical weekly menu would include meals such as:

- Steak and Shrimp
- Cold-cuts on fresh baked hoggie rolls (Turkey, Roastbeef, Ham)
- Pizza Day (Cooks would prep the crust and fixings...A Voluntary Division would actually make the pizzas [Navigation, Sonar, Firecontrol, Engineering, Torpedomen, Radio, Officers, etc.])
- Lobster Tail
- Catfish
- Speghetti and Italian Sausage

And the like... Yes, we ate well... I guess it was to compensate for the lack of sunlight and the recycled air ;)

The Navy would also pay for submarine qualed MS's to spend time at a New York cullinary arts college... within short times after being attached to a boat.

Of course, having all that good stuff cost us once. On our med cruise in '95 our refrigeration plant went out, right after doing a stores load in La Madalina, Sardinia, a week after pulling back out to sea.... It unfortuneately coincided with the sub-tender their pulling out for their yearly "one week" of at-sea duties..... So the tender had to get re-called, and we had to wait for them, to return to Sardinia...... It was not very much fun having to unload tons of spoiled food from the boat when we got back.... I will never forget it either.

I am glad I was never a rustpicker. Airborne infantry is the only way to go.

I am glad I was never a rustpicker. Airborne infantry is the only way to go.

Submariners do it deeper....

There are only two types of ships..... submarines...... and TARGETS!

So the term "nub" has nothing to do with the similar-sounding contraction "noob" for newbie?

So the term "nub" has nothing to do with the similar-sounding contraction "noob" for newbie?

Actually, they are very similar..... At least in concept.

NUB's (Non Usefull Bodies) are people who have just been attached to the sub out of school. Have not qualified (received their Dolphins), and are not qualed on any watch-stations. More or less they are dead-weight riding along till they "learn to do their job" on the boat and inter-operation with other members of the crew.... So it's not all that different.... except for the fact that all NUB's eventually become functional members of the crew.... and all "noobs" don't ;)

Submariners do it deeper....

There are only two types of ships..... submarines...... and TARGETS!

What's 100 meters long and full of seamen?

140 submariners went out to sea....
70 couples came back...

OS's perform similar roles as this in the CIC on sruface ships... Assiting in developing "tactical pictures" of the situation.
The people who did this in CIC weren't necessarily OS's. The RSC was a SPY guy operating his radar, but naturally he was the first one to detect and track a surface or air contact, and was therefore the first to report it. SPY classified it based on altitude, speed, and other characteristics as a ship, a helo, a plane, or whatever. The track was further evaluated by the EW to classify it based on its electronic signature (specific type of ship, helo, etc), and an OS evaluated its IFF response.

How it fit into the tactical picture was evaluated by the appropriate warfare coordinator... AAWC if it was an air track, or SWC if it was a surface track (there was also an ASWC, but OSs never touched their stuff. Sonar control was its own room off to the side of CIC, with just a couple of command consoles in CIC not manned by OSs.). AAWC and SWC were manned by senior combat systems enlisted personnel (E-7 and above) and junior combat systems officers. The warfare coordinators were the ones who passed tactical information and recommendations to the TAO (tactical action officer, a senior CS officer or the Operations Officer), who had command of CIC and all uses of sensors and weapons in place of the CO. Our OOD is in the pilot house three flights up, navigating the boat and running the everyday schedule. In an engagement, once the decision is made, it is managed by the appropriate FC or STG.

So, what has the OS done in all this? IFF. Big deal.

An OS does man a console in the pilot house, providing tactical info to the OOD. But you can also bet that, in an engagement, he's getting info directly from the TAO or CO in CIC.

The first doesn't work well in text.

The second is pidly.

As for airborne... I'd like to see an airborne army unit take out a carrier... Or indeed, a significant portion of a battlegroup.

The truth of the matter is, no special force stands alone, and none can do their job without others.

If it weren't for naval and airforce aviation assets, ground and airborne troops would be nothing but bullet catchers.

If it weren't for Aegis cruisers and destroyers, and fast-attack subs, performing TLAM strikes, pilots would be missile catchers.

If it weren't for the subs acting like guard-dogs for the battlegroups, they wouldn't make it accross the ocean unscathed.

If it weren't for the battlegroups, significant ammounts of equipment couldn't get transported accross the atlantic.

And if it weren't for all those support personnel back home, who ordered, shipped, and drops out equipment, none of us would be prepared to deploy anywhere.

Moral of the story?

No unit can do it alone.

I'm just stating a preference for airborne infantry from an individual perspective. Not saying it's all powerful or anything.

I felt less like a target. I didn't even like being in an aircraft for very long, or anywhere near ground vehicles, because I had the impression that the larger you were, the more inviting.

The people who did this in CIC weren't necessarily OS's. The RSC was a SPY guy operating his radar, but naturally he was the first one to detect and track a surface or air contact, and was therefore the first to report it. SPY classified it based on altitude, speed, and other characteristics as a ship, a helo, a plane, or whatever. The track was further evaluated by the EW to classify it based on its electronic signature (specific type of ship, helo, etc), and an OS evaluated its IFF response.

How it fit into the tactical picture was evaluated by the appropriate warfare coordinator... AAWC if it was an air track, or SWC if it was a surface track (there was also an ASWC, but OSs never touched their stuff. Sonar control was its own room off to the side of CIC, with just a couple of command consoles in CIC not manned by OSs.). AAWC and SWC were manned by senior combat systems enlisted personnel (E-7 and above) and junior combat systems officers. The warfare coordinators were the ones who passed tactical information and recommendations to the TAO (tactical action officer, a senior CS officer or the Operations Officer), who had command of CIC and all uses of sensors and weapons in place of the CO. Our OOD is in the pilot house three flights up, navigating the boat and running the everyday schedule. In an engagement, once the decision is made, it is managed by the appropriate FC or STG.

So, what has the OS done in all this? IFF. Big deal.

An OS does man a console in the pilot house, providing tactical info to the OOD. But you can also bet that, in an engagement, he's getting info directly from the TAO or CO in CIC.

Well, all the OS's I was familiar with were E-8's and above.... so I guess it's possible.

Though, in sub-duty, we do more than "report"...

FTOW's more or less were Warfare coordinators. Responding and recommending directly to the OOD. Since we didn't have any actual sensors that we, ourselves would man (except the periscope).

Sonar was the only all-time always one sensor suite. And their computer talked directly to ours... So information passage was data only. We coordinated the Data aquired from AN/BSY-1 Accoustic Set sub-system in the AN/BSY-1 Combatcontrol set sub-system... Radar was only active on the surface, so data was manually handed to the FTOW in the Attack Center. Usually only 1 FT on watch, unless OTH missions were in plan, in which case you would have two, one coordinating, the other acting as OTH coordinator, answering to the FTOW (since OTH was rare, only 2 FT's were tasked to OTH, 3 to FTOW, with FT1/SS Davis [Work Center Supervisor] and FTC/SS Easterling [Division Head] being rotated with the COW's [Chief of the Watch] or "Dive" [Diving Officer])... The only time this changed was when the "maneuving watch" [traverse on surface] was set. In which case all FT's would be present in Control, since there is far more data to coordinate (sonar, radar, and visual). Generally 1 manning OTH, 3 manning the Weapons Control Consoles, 1 manning the Weapons Launch console, and either FT1/SS Davis, or FTC/SS Easterling acting as the Attack Coordinator... The OOD would move to the "bridge" (clamshell area on top the sail) with the CO. And the XO would coordinate control. The "Strike" [FT/TM division officer] would assist the Torpedomen, if he wasn't OOD at the time. Generally the FT's on the WCC's would coordinate, with 1 entering data aquired from visual contacts and radar, and the other two building solutions.

When not on maneuvering, only 1 FT would man the Attack Center. As the FTOW, and acted in all "Attack Center" capacity. From finding and coordinating target solutions, launching weapons, and coordinating tactics with the OOD. The FTOW also coordinated SVP's [Sound-Velocity Profiles] gathered from Sonar. And would be responsible for giving recommendations to the OOD about the location of thermal layers, and other aids to avoid detection. As well as keeping the CCS's SVP updated in case of the need to launch weapons. (Ocean temp/salinity/density effects the velocity of sound through the water).

The most hectic time, during a non-battle, non-maneuvering watch; was when we did a submerged transit of the straits of Gibraltar, and I had to coordinate solutions on no less than 70 seperate contacts (off of passive data).

Alot of times it made me feel like those Jamaicans on "In Living Color"... With my multitude of jobs. And none of that included my "cursory" duties as Repair Parts PO and Publications PO....

I'm just stating a preference for airborne infantry from an individual perspective. Not saying it's all powerful or anything.

I felt less like a target. I didn't even like being in an aircraft for very long, or anywhere near ground vehicles, because I had the impression that the larger you were, the more inviting.

Yep... if they can't see you (or hear you) you're not much of a target ;) I can sympathize with that ;)

It's hard to hide a carrier..... It's damn difficult to find a submarine.

Yep... if they can't see you (or hear you) you're not much of a target ;) I can sympathize with that ;)

It's hard to hide a carrier..... It's damn difficult to find a submarine.

First lesson I remember when dealing with aircraft of any kind: If you think they haven't spotted you, don't shoot at them. It will only make them interested in dropping their ordnance on you, and going home for Miller Time.

Well, It actually made me want to despise the millitary, note I am not referring to the soldiers, God bless their souls, but to the actual institution, more....So thanks for making my stance more stable. DOwn With DRAFTS!!(and recruiting)

Culex,

If you believe there's a draft inplace, then your dummer than your arguements suggest. There is no draft. I had to sign up for the selective service when I was 18 too. Am I bitching? no! Why? Because it'll never be used. It'll be suicide for any politician to bring the draft back.

The purpose of the military is to kill people and break things. Does not fight for freedom. The freedom bit is just propaganda for the tax payer.

Tell that to the soldiers that fought the British in 1775-1783. Tell that to the soldiers that was defending the US in 1812-1814. Tell that to the Soldiers of both sides of the Civil War in 1861-1865. What about the soldiers that fought in WWI? WWII was certainly about Freedom as was the Korean War. Don't forget about the Persian Gulf War too my friend. That was for the freedom of the Kuwaitis.

Just because somebody doesn't want to fight in a war they object to doesn't make them a coward. See, it's funny how everyone is prepared to fight to defend the right to form an opinion but when that opinion differs from your own those same people fighting want to take away that right. They have a right to object, you're fighting for that right and to suggest otherwise is ignorant.

If you object to war, don't join the military! Once you receive your orders, you follow them. And no. Getting orders to go to war is not an illegal order. You follow your orders to the letter.

If you don't, you'll be court-martialed.

Really Tuesday, I thought you better than that.

Anyone who thinks that Vatican City is actual nation...well...isn't a coward, but is something! And it's not good.

The Vatican is actually a recognized country wether you want to believe it or not.

That what the Iraqui freedom figthers say...they very much have the same philosophy.

Except most of those aren't Iraqi.

I got a perfect score (99 out of 99) and I'm part of the cadet corps at Penn State training to be U.S. Army officers. Personally I resent your attitude that people who join the military are "dumb". You have a lot of gall to say that those of us who are willing to put our necks on the line so you can sleep at night are "dumb". Are you willing to do it? Quite obviously not...your arrogance and condescending attitude are sickening.

Oh...and as for the statement that all soldiers join for the benefits, not true. I'm not saying that my scholarship isn't a nice benefit, I'm just saying that's not my reason for joining. I'd join regardless. I suppose it's too far of a stretch for you that some people would possess the values and ideals that would make us willing to fight and die for something that you so ardently despise. I joined because I love my country...plain and simple...and because military service is a family tradition dating back 200+ years.

Nice post North Appalachia. Very well written. Congrats and I hope you go far in the Army.

Monsieur Maurais was the definition of a traitor ...Those days he would have been hanged.

Good thing any American today can openly join any side...any cause he considers just...without being labeled a Traitor... or sent to Guantanamo ;)

Does Mr. Walker from California ring a bell? He should've been shot for being a traitor to the United States.

What's 100 meters long and full of seamen?

:D

Now that's funny! LOL! No wonder the pig boats are the butt of ever joke in the military.

Though, in sub-duty, we do more than "report"...
If RSC notices the track has a threatening profile, he's going to do a whole lot more than report. Meanwhile, he's playing cat-and-mouse games with electronic warfare.

FTOW's more or less were Warfare coordinators. Responding and recommending directly to the OOD. Since we didn't have any actual sensors that we, ourselves would man (except the periscope).

The only time this changed was when the "maneuving watch" [traverse on surface] was set. In which case all FT's would be present in Control, since there is far more data to coordinate (sonar, radar, and visual).
Welcome to our world. And whichever Aegis ship in the battlegroup is assigned as plane guard has the additional responsibility of acting as force air-traffic controller (including planes leaving the carrier). Now you appreciate why we have to have so many watchstanders all the time. Not only do we have tons of traffic to keep an eye on, but we also have vastly more sensor packages with which to evaluate them. And every bit of it eventually finds its way into the Aegis system.

In a way, that sucked, because every time another system went down, the primary symptom was that the data stopped showing up at the consoles. The techs would say their equipment was fine, and it must be the computers. In which case, I had to prove them wrong.

On the other hand, once I proved them wrong, we ended up working together to find the solution, and I ended up learning a great deal about the other systems.

And you know what? Every once in a while, it actually *was* the computers.


The most hectic time, during a non-battle, non-maneuvering watch; was when we did a submerged transit of the straits of Gibraltar, and I had to coordinate solutions on no less than 70 seperate contacts (off of passive data).

My most hectic time was the night before a missile shoot, I was on the midwatch, and the tape unit for C&D went dead early on. No tape meant no data to send to Dahlgren for analysis, meaning a lot of the expense of conducting a missile shoot is wasted. I was fairly new at the time, too. I was in the process of putting it back together (and hoping it would work) when my supe came in after breakfast. He relieved me and finished putting it together (after yelling at me for not waking him up), and happily, it worked.

Less stressful, but definitely hectic, would be the Theater Ballistic Missile Defense exercises. We were chosen to attempt to detect and track a simulated ICBM. All this talk Bush makes about missile defense, I know exactly where we are with that. I came away from that with a very clear picture of what we can and cannot do. And the amount of data we collected on that was staggering. It was pretty damned interesting.

Honestly, I think the issue is that there is no set up where you are guaranteed to never be forced to leave the country...

National Guard service would be fine and dandy, hell, I'd not be entirely against everyone having to do a little of it in high school, so long as you are NOT forced to leave your home to go die in some war overseas.

I'm just stating a preference for airborne infantry from an individual perspective. Not saying it's all powerful or anything.

I felt less like a target. I didn't even like being in an aircraft for very long, or anywhere near ground vehicles, because I had the impression that the larger you were, the more inviting.

My ship scooted along the water broadcasting so many different microwave frequencies that it was practically screaming, "I'M OVER HERE! PLEASE SHOOT ME!" And with a system that carried a couple hundred missiles and could, theoretically, control every one of them in the air at once, and borrow more from nearby ships mid-flight besides, I wish they would have. :-D

My ship scooted along the water broadcasting so many different microwave frequencies that it was practically screaming, "I'M OVER HERE! PLEASE SHOOT ME!" And with a system that carried a couple hundred missiles and could, theoretically, control every one of them in the air at once, and borrow more from nearby ships mid-flight besides, I wish they would have. :-D

Yeah, it was funny, even with the smaller destroyers with their "screen".... We'd be scooting along, and all you could hear is this fast moving localized "rain squal"... Not sure who came up with that idea.... The frikken carrier could be heard even if we were UNDER one of the destroyers or cruisers from miles away....

On the flip side, we almost rammed the USS Maine (SSBN-741) during an exercize, cause neither of us could hear one another till we were almost on top of each other.

I still shit on myself with the STS's classification of the Maine as a "troller traveling on 1 nine-bladed screw"... And probably will till the day I die... And their range estimate as it being at 28,000 yards, when its bearing rate was at about 15 degrees a minute... Sometimes I wonder what those sonar guys did in their dark little room.... They weren't helping much in the area of classifying anything....

And to think they wanted to combine FT's and STS's into "Combat System Specialists"... ::shudder::

I still shit on myself with the STS's classification of the Maine as a "troller traveling on 1 nine-bladed screw"... And probably will till the day I die... And their range estimate as it being at 28,000 yards, when its bearing rate was at about 15 degrees a minute... Sometimes I wonder what those sonar guys did in their dark little room.... They weren't helping much in the area of classifying anything....

And to think they wanted to combine FT's and STS's into "Combat System Specialists"... ::shudder::
To illustrate why I have so much contempt for OSs... we went to the gunnery range with some other ships to do CIWS testing against simulated targets. The targets were missile-shaped thingies towed behind navy jets with about two miles of cable in between. When our sister ship's turn came up, they did not fire, and we were wondering what went wrong. We figured it was an equipment casualty. But the squawking over the radio cleared up the matter, and the tow vehicle went back for another pass. It turned out the idiot OS standing IDS ID'ed the tow plane as the hostile. Luckily others caught the very obvious mistake and the engagement was aborted in time.

During my time aboard, though, their whole ship was a pack of morons. I called them the floating rock garden, or USS Lake Stupid (the real name was Lake Erie). They caused an international incident once when they let their helo stray into Iranian airspace. I know because the Iranians called the US consulate to complain, and the consulate called the fleet, and the fleet called my ship, and my ship called me to mount the data tapes for replay to confirm or deny the incident. I mounted them and went upstairs to watch, and yep, they did it.

My experience with their computer techs was pretty bad. One time, we both got a new level of software from Dahlgren at the same time, and they felt the need to put it through a battery of tests. When they got to the Post-Mission Analysis utility, they couldn't get it loaded. Their supe (a 1st-class) came over to check with us and see if we were having the same problem, suspecting that Dahlgren had issued bad software. We hadn't even looked at it yet, but we threw the disk in and tried to load it, and, sure enough, we were unable to load it. He left, satisfied that he had a valid beef with Dahlgren, and they were going to catch hell for it.

Meanwhile, my supe (a more senior 2nd-class) decided to look into it further. He cracked open the new pubs and quickly discovered that they had modified the load procedure a bit, and had relocated the load module to a different disk pack. It was more convenient this way, as it turned out, because we didn't have to spindle down a tactical pack and remove and replace it with the PMA pack. We could just drop the PMA pack in the spare drive and load the executable off the tactical pack, and the modified load module would tell the computer to check the spare for the rest of the application.

So we're thinking that's pretty neat, and my supe went across the pier to tell the other guys what he found. I went with him. The first-class decided that my buddy was covering up for Dahlgren's screw up, and yelled at us for a while. Outranked or not, my buddy wasn't going to take that from anybody, and got abusive. Unfortunately for the first-class, not only was my buddy correct, but he was discussing it in CSMC (combat systems maintenance central) with a couple senior FCs present (and therefore actually capable of understanding the conversation). The first was storming out the door cussing while my buddy was still worked up and threatening to never bother to help them out again while their FCCM is trying to mollify him with, "Yeah, sorry. We know he's an idiot. Thanks for trying."

Later on, we had a Display tech who faked an injury to get out of a deployment. After a few months ashore it was proven he was fine, so he got assigned to the Lake Erie and re-classed to computers. We figured he would fit in there fine. And he did.

Oh, and to clarify the "please shoot me" statement, that was only for surface and air contacts. I have no illusions about a Tike's ability to detect and defend against a sub threat. If you're not deploying sonar buoys, you're pretty much screwed. With the sonar dome mounted where it was on that ship, you couldn't hear a KISS concert 20 feet below you at cruising speed.

Oh, and to clarify the "please shoot me" statement, that was only for surface and air contacts. I have no illusions about a Tike's ability to detect and defend against a sub threat. If you're not deploying sonar buoys, you're pretty much screwed. With the sonar dome mounted where it was on that ship, you couldn't hear a KISS concert 20 feet below you at cruising speed.

Yeah, sub-sonar mount is far different... The "sphere" located in the free-flood bow, only had active-sonar (and isn't used much), and provides capability to direct sound pulses over a 227 degree arc around the ship (and could even direct the pulse into the chief's quarters.... Which made for good tricks during tests....) It is also designed, on subs, for the "active pulse" to sound like whale-song when in transit of water... Which made our pings harder to identify, as opposed to those of most surface vessels, which sounded more like a "whumump" sound, like someone beating a whale with a large stick.

Hydrophones (massive sonar sensors) were mounted in several places, the largest around the lower bow in a "shark-mouth" arraingement, and through the "sail"/"fair-water" at the top.... They gave us a full 320 deg. arc of detection... The arc to a full 357 deg. with one of the towed arrays deployed. Of course, sonar for us was bread and butter... We needed it, as it was our primary form of sensor gathering, and our only form when submerged. One of the reasons for our heavy reliance on TMA, there is no such thing as "visual" for us, unless it is coming from confirmation through battlegroup operations from surface combatants through the network while operating at Periscope Depth via our BRA's or the radio receivers mounted on the Nav scope. (Usually we only used passive radio reception through the Nav scope, since the BRA's had a radar signature the size of a jumbo-jet... Though we could only recieve via satalite from the BRA's)... So all data required heavy interpretation and analyzation to develope an acurate tactical picture of the situation, by us FT's for the O-gangers to make their decisions.

I can sympathize with the inability of sister vessels in operational theaters. We were backup for the Oklahoma City during a TLAM strike during the Bosnia campaign... The OK-City, an older Flight 3 LA class, using the make-shift VLS capacity of the CCS-Mk1 system (which had VLS in a completely seperate sub-system, while in AN/BSY-1 it was integrated completely into Firecontrol) had a failure in their VLS control consoles located in the VLS space forward of the torpedo room.... Unable to fire, we had to make the launch window for a couple of TLAM-D's in thier place.

In constrast, AN/BSY-1 lacks any seperate control consoles for VLS. They are controled in the systems VWLC as part of the Torpedo system, and programing, and launch is complete intrgerated into the WCC's and the WLCC in the attack center. Our system was far more "centralized" than the older CCS-Mk1 Combat Control suite.

CCS-Mk2 was abit better. I got to play with some of the systems in tactics training. They reduced alot of space by integration techniques learned from AN/BSY-1 and AN/BSY-2... In addition to integrating data-storage into drives located inside the main AN/UYK-43 computer... Which was another change in the system (CCS-Mk1 used the AN/UYK-7 monstrosity, which looked like it belonged on the bridge of the Enterprise in the Original series of Star Trek.. with all of its flashing lights, and it's 8-bit registering) the UYK-43 was far more robust in its computer power, and alot "smaller" in its space usage. Though, like its predecessor, CCS-Mk2 did not integrate sonar and firecontrol.

The newer Virginia Class uses a unique CCS, the AN/BYG-1, which is a derivative of the CCS-Mk2, but providing complete integration of Fire Control and Sonar, as the BSY-1 and 2, in addition to combining Communications, and Information sub-systems... into a "CSI" as a single, multi-tier integrated system... Which would be interesting.... Though there has been no repeat of the "fiberoptics" attempts made with the almost completely "optical" AN/BSY-2 CC/AS as found on the Seawolf class (SSN-21, SSN-22, SSN-23) subs.

What really pissed me off on that one, was the OK-City still got the "Battle-Readiness" award during the operation, and I can only attribute it to the fact that SUB-GROUP 8's (over the Med.) RADM was the pre-com skipper of the OK-City.... Military politics piss me off... The Hampton at that time was still "new" having only been out of trials for about 2 years. (She was commissioned [post-trials] in 1993)... This was her first actual battle-operations role as a submarine.... We showed off seemlessly in our operations.

It is also designed, on subs, for the "active pulse" to sound like whale-song when in transit of water... Which made our pings harder to identify, as opposed to those of most surface vessels, which sounded more like a "whumump" sound, like someone beating a whale with a large stick.
My berthing compartment was below the waterline, so anytime someone tested sonar in port, I heard it. It cost me the opportunity to sleep in on Saturday mornings. It all sounded like whale song to me. Even ours.

I can sympathize with the inability of sister vessels in operational theaters. We were backup for the Oklahoma City during a TLAM strike during the Bosnia campaign... The OK-City, an older Flight 3 LA class, using the make-shift VLS capacity of the CCS-Mk1 system (which had VLS in a completely seperate sub-system, while in AN/BSY-1 it was integrated completely into Firecontrol) had a failure in their VLS control consoles located in the VLS space forward of the torpedo room.... Unable to fire, we had to make the launch window for a couple of TLAM-D's in thier place.

At least it was due to equipment failure, and not sheer idiocy.


In addition to integrating data-storage into drives located inside the main AN/UYK-43 computer... Which was another change in the system (CCS-Mk1 used the AN/UYK-7 monstrosity, which looked like it belonged on the bridge of the Enterprise in the Original series of Star Trek.. with all of its flashing lights, and it's 8-bit registering) the UYK-43 was far more robust in its computer power, and alot "smaller" in its space usage. Though, like its predecessor, CCS-Mk2 did not integrate sonar and firecontrol.

Those who attended Aegis Computer Track I course were sent to Tico-class cruisers up to CG-64, where the processor was the UYK-7. Track II grads went to 65 and above, or Burkes (DDG-51 class), where the processor was the UYK-43. They were in the process of replacing the UYK-7s with 43s, however. There was also talk of replacing the UYK-43 with a commercial system, to save money on parts. I would imagine that battle-hardening would have been the greatest obstacle.

Anyway, I worked on the 43 primarily. And there were a crapload of them. Five made up the Aegis suite:

1) Command and Decision
2) Aegis Display
3) SPY-1
4) Weapons Control System
5) ACTS/N+1 (ACTS was the training software, but the N+1 feature meant you could use it as a spare, loading any of the 4 core Aegis functions into it with reduced capacity/redundancy).

When Link 16/JTIDS was installed, my guys inherited responsibility for that UYK-43, so it was our 6th computer, though it is not a core Aegis element. Then there were the UYK-43s that functioned as fire control computers for the Mk86 GFCS and for the sonar guys. Neither group had any idea what they were doing with their computers, so we ended up troubleshooting their stuff every time.


The newer Virginia Class uses a unique CCS, the AN/BYG-1, which is a derivative of the CCS-Mk2, but providing complete integration of Fire Control and Sonar, as the BSY-1 and 2, in addition to combining Communications, and Information sub-systems... into a "CSI" as a single, multi-tier integrated system... Which would be interesting.... Though there has been no repeat of the "fiberoptics" attempts made with the almost completely "optical" AN/BSY-2 CC/AS as found on the Seawolf class (SSN-21, SSN-22, SSN-23) subs.

Now you're beginning to understand what Aegis is like. Every sensor and weapon on the ship is plugged into it in some fashion, so C&D can display it all in one place. It's as fully integrated as it can get.

Does Mr. Walker from California ring a bell? He should've been shot for being a traitor to the United States.was he a spy?
like james bond or xXx...if he was that then yes he deserves the death penalty.

but I think his french great-grand-g-Dad choose to figth vs his MotherLand in an OPEN way...

like a German could have chosen to enroll the USArmy...to figth vs Hitler.(not in a covert/spy situation)

was he a spy?
like james bond or xXx...if he was that then yes he deserves the death penalty.

No but he did take up arms in support of the enemy. That is being a traitor and is an act of treason. He should've been shot on sight.

...
Does Mr. Walker from California ring a bell? He should've been shot for being a traitor to the United States.was he a spy?
like james bond or xXx...if he was that then yes he deserves the death penalty.

but I think his french great-grand-g-Dad choose to figth vs his MotherLand in an OPEN way...

like a German could have chosen to enroll the USArmy...to figth vs Hitler.(not in a covert/spy situation)

...
was he a spy?
like james bond or xXx...if he was that then yes he deserves the death penalty.

He TOOK UP ARMS AGAINST THE UNITED STATES! That in and of itself is punishable by death because it is treason!

but I think his french great-grand-g-Dad choose to figth vs his MotherLand in an OPEN way...

eh? clearification is appreciated please.

like a German could have chosen to enroll the USArmy...to figth vs Hitler.(not in a covert/spy situation)

And if he was captured, he would've been killed outright because he would've been considered a traitor to the German Reich.

No but he did take up arms in support of the enemy. That is being a traitor and is an act of treason. He should've been shot on sight.
I was about ready to criticize this, but then I realized we are thinking of two different Walkers. There was a louse named John Walker that also happened to be a Navy Chief Petty Officer. He and his family sold codes to the Soviets. For quite a few years, too, back in the late '70s and early '80s.

His ex-wife finally turned him in because she didn't think she was getting her fair share. Turns out his son was involved, too. They all went to jail None were executed. A kinder, gentler, America, I guess. Hope they are enjoying prison...

I was about ready to criticize this, but then I realized we are thinking of two different Walkers. There was a louse named John Walker that also happened to be a Navy Chief Petty Officer. He and his family sold codes to the Soviets. For quite a few years, too, back in the late '70s and early '80s.

His ex-wife finally turned him in because she didn't think she was getting her fair share. Turns out his son was involved, too. They all went to jail None were executed. A kinder, gentler, America, I guess. Hope they are enjoying prison...

I hope they are too though if they were selling secrets to the former soviet union then they should've been shot too.

I'm actually talking about John Phillip Walker Lindh, the American Taliban.

I hope they are too though if they were selling secrets to the former soviet union then they should've been shot too.

I'm actually talking about John Phillip Walker Lindh, the American Taliban.
I couldn't remember Johnny Taliban's name. Hope he gets his due.

This is really an interesting story (http://www.crimelibrary.com/terrorists_spies/spies/walker/1.html?sect=23). You're right about the outcome. He should have been shot, his son should have been shot, and if he had been just a little smarter, his ex-wife would have been shot. Instead, they are all guests of the U.S. taxpayer at Leavenworth, or some other nice resort.

He TOOK UP ARMS AGAINST THE UNITED STATES! That in and of itself is punishable by death because it is treason!
it is evil to execute someone just because he follows his concience.
eh? clearification is appreciated please.im talking about Appalachia french G-G-G-Dad
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8851363&postcount=156

And if he was captured, he would've been killed outright because he would've been considered a traitor to the German Reich.it is evil to execute someone just because he follows his concience.

its evil to execute someone just because he follows his concience.

He's an American Citizen, fighting against his own nation. Wether you like it or not, that is treason and is punishable by death. He should've been put to death immediately.

im talking about apalachio french G-G-G-Dad

irrelevent.

its evil to execute someone just because he follows his concience.

Again. If a citizen of one country fights against his country, they are normally put to death at once for treason.

He's an American Citizen, fighting against his own nation. Wether you like it or not, that is treason and is punishable by death. He should've been put to death immediately.

<<<<about Appalacia French grand dad who did figh against his own nation<<<

irrelevent..
A Frenchman fighting against his own nation is relevant.

and if you say a german citizen enrolling in the us army...should get executed...i totally disagree

A Frenchman fighting against his own nation is relevant.

If he was caught, I can gurantee ya that he would've been put to death too.

and if you say a german citizen enrolling in the us army...should get executed...i totally disagree


Sorry. But if a german citizen is caught in arms against Germany, then yes, he should be put to death.

If he was caught, I can gurantee ya that he would've been put to death too.

Sorry. But if a german citizen is caught in arms against Germany, then yes, he should be put to death.
thats so wrong...

dont forget borders are just imaginary lines...

I hope they are too though if they were selling secrets to the former soviet union then they should've been shot too.yes undercover agents(spies) should be executed.

thats so wrong...

dont forget borders are just imaginary lines...

OceanDrive,

My advise to you is come out and see the light for once. You apparently have no idea how the REAL WORLD works.

I don't plan on dying. But if I do, I'm dying for parasites like you as much as anyone else. The fight for freedom isn't contained to home, it's against all enemies, domestic AND foreign. I don't care if you support the war or not, if you don't want to serve your country, you can go. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.You don't know what freedom is. The only natural obligations a free man has is to himself. It is my responsibility to fight for my freedom. It is not my responsibility to fight for yours nor do you have any responsibility to fight for mine. Call me crazy, but somehow I don't think giving up my freedom so the President can send me to far away places to kill and/or be killed does not make me or anyone I care about a free person.

As far as 'serving your country' goes, I am part of this country and it doesn't serve me at all to have you eating my tax dollars and doing whatever the President or someone else on down the food chain decides you should be doing. Don't get the idea that I hate you or hate the military, it's just that the military is very rarely used to do anything that does me and the majority of other Americans any good.

I spent 4 years in the US Army and got out with an honorable discharge in June of 2001. Later in September, I considered going back in, but today I'm very glad that I haven't. At one time, part of me regretted that I never got to do anything exciting (like kill somebody) while I was in, but now I'm just glad that I survived unscathed. These days, I strongly advise everyone to stay out of the US military. If you like freedom at all, it doesn't make much sense to volunteer to be US property, to be a slave to the state.


Good luck on the whole 'not dying' thing. Seriously.

There was a TimeAsia issue some months ago which topic was on the American military's difficulty to recruit. Again, if we widen our sights to globalism instead of nationalism, we might reduce global demand for the military, so our Department of Defences can really be for "defences"...

It's stupid that people are called cowards for objecting to wars. The ultra-rights do not have the monopoly on morals. I happen to think that killing a bunch of strangers for the sake of a bunch of businessmen and politicians that I've never met isn't a good thing to do. The fact that this bunch of strangers happens to live in a different part of the world than me means little. They're still human beings; I still wouldn't harm them unless they personally affronted me, and even then I don't think I'd kill them.

Of course, this anti-murder belief couldn't possibly be morality. It's just being a coward and also a traitor to queen and country.

And whatever other jingoistic bollocks you come up with.

I got one single call.

and i let him know, in no uncertain terms, that i was not going to join the military, no matter which branch, no matter how much they paid me.

perhaps we can find ways to avoid stupid, wasteful wars.

like..oh, i don't know...

not pissing off the rest of the planet?

that sounds about right.


'defending my freedoms'

what bullshit.

tell me which of my freedoms the iraqis took from me.

You tell them :D

It's always nice to hear that scum will be exiting my country, too bad that's not the case here. You never intended to actually join the military. This is all just some sick little experiment for you. Not to mention you're nothing more than a mouthpiece for a website. As long as you're going to be a left wing ideologue you might as well be honest with yourself. If you ever were to leave though I'd love to be there to watch your first days of boat camp for the Royal Navy. With that complete hate for any military, the snarky attitude and the 2X4 sized chip on your shoulder I can guarantee you wouldn't last a week. I met some RN sailors while overseas and can say they'd use a nancy like you for a toilet.

I'm not glorifying war, but if you're going to hand out proclamations on PTSD, at least you could be someone who has "been there, done that".

Thing is you gotta remember most of the hacks throwing out that designation see all vets as Kubrick film extras. Chances are they wouldn't know a PTSD vet if they saw one. As a vet with it I sought the necessary mental health services and learned to deal with in constructive ways. It'll be with me the rest of my life but I'm not going to use it as a crutch or let it ruin my life. I'm damn proud of my service in the corps and if I had to repeat this life I'd sign up again.

Each night they set darken ship and tell everyone the weatherdecks are off-limits, but one clear, full-mooned night I went out anyway. Thousands of miles beyond any human light source, the stars are breathtaking.

I did a 6 month float about the Ashland (LSD 48). That was one of the best parts! Get off watch around 0200 then go out on the fantail and just lay down there on the helipad staring at the sky. It's a peace I've not yet managed to duplicate in civilian life. They never did let us watch when they'd fire the Seawhiz cannons. The way that thing shook the boat it had to look awesome.

As to the matter of "conscientious objectors", that's a decision to make before signing up. Militaries kill people and break things in the course of their duties. If you don't know that you're borderline "too stupid to live". If you sign up then cry CO at the first sign of trouble I think you should get your wish though. You'd obviously be worthless on the field so why send you. But since you lied, betrayed your oath, your nation and illegally collected wages under false premises there's only 1 acceptable alternative, imprisonment. For a term of no less than 10-15 years. By refusing to deploy you've cost your unit manpower, resources and your absence could eventually lead to others death in battle. Don't like it? Canada's to the north, start walking.

Does Mr. Walker from California ring a bell? He should've been shot for being a traitor to the United States.
That idiot joined the Taliban before the United States launched an un-declared war on them. How does that make him a traitor?

they aren't sacrificing their lives for you necessarily it would appear, but many of us, indeed the majority of Americans, do respect their sacrifice.

I would just as soon they kill the bad guys (most of whom are combatants, not civilians in spite of your idealogical beliefs or simple ignorance would have you try to persuade us to believe).

Its a damn shame civilians die in war, but it is why war is so horrible, and not to be entered in lightly. If you want to blame somebody for Iraq, don't blame the troops. Blame Bush, the Senate, and the slight majority of voters who reelected Bush and the Republicans in charge of both Houses of Congress.
Also blame everyone who voted for John Kerry who promised to continue the Iraq war and increase the US troop presence. 99% of 2004 presidential election voters reportedly voted for a pro-war candidate.

That idiot joined the Taliban before the United States launched an un-declared war on them. How does that make him a traitor?

It made him a traitor when he didn't toss down his weapon when we DID ATTACK the Taliban. Because he fought alongside the Taliban, the bastard deserves to be executed.

As for your "I advise people to stay out of the military comment" I find this absolutely reprehensible. Especially from the mouth of a former soldier. I respect your service but don't tell people what to do.

It is a great opportunity for people to actually open their eyes to how the real world works through their own eyes. I thought about joining myself. I'm still thinking about it too. And I just might if another major terror attack happens on this country.

BTW: Army Sucks! Go Air Force! :p

It made him a traitor when he didn't toss down his weapon when we DID ATTACK the Taliban. Because he fought alongside the Taliban, the bastard deserves to be executed.

As for your "I advise people to stay out of the military comment" I find this absolutely reprehensible. Especially from the mouth of a former soldier. I respect your service but don't tell people what to do.

It is a great opportunity for people to actually open their eyes to how the real world works through their own eyes. I thought about joining myself. I'm still thinking about it too. And I just might if another major terror attack happens on this country.

BTW: Army Sucks! Go Air Force! :p

Sorry, you lost me at Go Air Force! Its all about the:
SEMPER FI!

Sorry, you lost me at Go Air Force! Its all about the:
SEMPER FI!

AHH!!! Forget the Marines. We can all agree though that Navy is worse than all other branches :p

It made him a traitor when he didn't toss down his weapon when we DID ATTACK the Taliban. Because he fought alongside the Taliban, the bastard deserves to be executed.

As for your "I advise people to stay out of the military comment" I find this absolutely reprehensible. Especially from the mouth of a former soldier. I respect your service but don't tell people what to do.

It is a great opportunity for people to actually open their eyes to how the real world works through their own eyes. I thought about joining myself. I'm still thinking about it too. And I just might if another major terror attack happens on this country.

BTW: Army Sucks! Go Air Force! :p

On this I have to disagree, by US Law and precedent, Mr. Walker did not commit "Treason", and therefore is not applicable under your penalty.

Under US Code Treason is defined as:

"The offense of attempting by overt acts to overthrow the government of the state to which the offender owes allegiance; or of betraying the state into the hands of a foreign power."

The #1 problem is the unconstitutionality of wars entered into by the United States after the end of World War 2. Under the "War Powers Act" congress may appropriate troops for presidential uses overseas, with congresional approval. However, this conveys war-powers to the president, while not constituting a Constitutionally valid "declaration of war" on the part of the legislature. That being said, under Constitutional Law, the United States has not been in war since the close of World War 2. Treason is also controled under constitutional law. Which effectively (in cases before the court) closes the possibility of treason out of cases arrising before the courts since that time.

Had, and would the United States Government operate properly in its foundational boundries, and under its proper authority; this case may be different. However, as a person, who served in the United States Armed Forces, and swore an oath towards the Constitution, I cannot grant or support governmental acts which stands against their proper enumerated authority, or support the trial of Mr. Walker for treason, resultant from an undeclared military action outside of their properly enumerated powers.

I thought about joining myself. I'm still thinking about it too. And I just might if another major terror attack happens on this country.

BTW: Army Sucks! Go Air Force! :pYou are just not Patriot enough...

you waiting for another 9-11 :confused:
what?... the first one was not enough for you?