NationStates Jolt Archive

Jesus was a Communist. He believed all men should be servants of all others, and that none should be judged more worthy than another simply because of material wealth. Discuss amoungst yourselves.
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Man, am I going to catch flak for this one.

Oh, this is going to end in tears and a lot of cursing.

*goes to pop some popcorn and watch the fireworks*

Jesus was a Communist. He believed all men should be servants of all others, and that none should be judged more worthy than another simply because of material wealth. Discuss amoungst yourselves.
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Man, am I going to catch flak for this one.
One problem: you can't be a Communist and participate in or believe in any organized religion. For starters, you can't believe in God.

Kind of hard to get around that one.

yeah remember when he was 12 and his parents lost him somewhere in jerusalem and when they finally found him they asked what the hell he was doing and he answered "reading das kapital"?

I wouldn't go as far to say that he was a communist, more of a socialist.

One problem: you can't be a Communist and participate in or believe in any organized religion. For starters, you can't believe in God.

Kind of hard to get around that one.

Why not?

I think the Catholic Workers Society would be very dissapointed to know that they have to choose between the two things they love. God and Communism.

One problem: you can't be a Communist and participate in or believe in any organized religion. For starters, you can't believe in God.

Kind of hard to get around that one.

Can you explain that a little bit more? I don't see how that exactly works. Besides, it wouldn't disprove that Jesus was a Communist. I say Jesus would've approved of the idealize form of the the government, not that the idealized form of the government would necessarily have to approve of him (although, granted, he'd probably prefer it that way). *still waiting to be smitten by a lightning bolt*

Why not?

I think the Catholic Workers Society would be very dissapointed to know that they have to choose between the two things they love. God and Communism.

I've always thought that the typical member of the Catholic Workers Society has to be a schizophrenic.

yeah remember when he was 12 and his parents lost him somewhere in jerusalem and when they finally found him they asked what the hell he was doing and he answered "reading das kapital"?

Nah, it was Mein Kampf. (I know, I'm going to hell)

One problem: you can't be a Communist and participate in or believe in any organized religion. For starters, you can't believe in God.

Kind of hard to get around that one.

That's the only difference between Jesus and a marxist.

Honestly, if Marx understood religion, he'd have been fine with it.

One problem: you can't be a Communist and participate in or believe in any organized religion. For starters, you can't believe in God.

Kind of hard to get around that one.

That's the only difference between Jesus and a marxist.

Honestly, if Marx understood religion, he'd have been fine with it.

One problem: you can't be a Communist and participate in or believe in any organized religion. For starters, you can't believe in God.

Kind of hard to get around that one.

That's the only difference between Jesus and a marxist.

Honestly, if Marx understood religion, he'd have been fine with it.

One problem: you can't be a Communist and participate in or believe in any organized religion. For starters, you can't believe in God.

Kind of hard to get around that one.

only if that one was true. but it ain't, so that solves that problem.

I've always thought that the typical member of the Catholic Workers Society has to be a schizophrenic.
Wow :eek: Me too.

But nevermind.

Still the Catholic Workers Society is just one example of Theistic Communists.

It is possible to be both, since there is no central manifesto for Communism (Marx and Engel's executed a brilliant PR stunt, calling their book The Communist Manifesto, still there are other communist beliefs other then Marxism in all its wonderful flavours).

I always thought it was obvious that Jesus was a communist; in fact it is a primary reason why I am not Christian.

One problem: you can't be a Communist and participate in or believe in any organized religion. For starters, you can't believe in God.

Kind of hard to get around that one.
Yes, you can. There have been numerous small Christian communist movements in history. Marx didn't invent communism.

yeah remember when he was 12 and his parents lost him somewhere in jerusalem and when they finally found him they asked what the hell he was doing and he answered "reading das kapital"?
Marx didn't invent communism. And it's not like he was reading Friedrich von Hayek books either.

I wouldn't go as far to say that he was a communist, more of a socialist.
Socialism has a big government, which I don't think Jesus would have liked.

Honestly, if Marx understood religion, he'd have been fine with it.

He did. He saw it as a product of society. He had nothing against religion per se, ("Heart of a heartless world, the soul of soulless conditions..."), he just disliked the way that it gave the workers a false sense of hope in the status-quo.

It was more than simple anti-clericalism

he just disliked the way that it gave the workers a false sense of hope in the status-quo

or as joe hill put it:

You will eat, bye and bye,
In that glorious land above the sky;
Work and pray, live on hay,
You'll get pie in the sky when you die.

Goverment is flawed.
Jesus is not flawed.
Comunism is flawed.
Socialism is flawed.
Al man-made things are flawed.
Jesus is not man made.
You can't give Jesus a goverment.Do'h.

I wouldn't go as far to say that he was a communist, more of a socialist.

Ever heard of the Ten Commandments? One of them is "though shalt not steal." Jesus was not a thief. Hence, He couldn't have been a socialist. Socialism involves taking something that belongs to someone else against their will, and giving it to someone else, whether they earned it or not. Jesus believed in voluntary charity.

Jesus was a Communist.
And Buddha was a smurf.

Jesus was a Communist. He believed all men should be servants of all others, and that none should be judged more worthy than another simply because of material wealth. Discuss amoungst yourselves.
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Man, am I going to catch flak for this one.

That's why I hate jesus. in fact, I should be crowned the new Jesus so that I can declare capitalism kicks more ass than lame-ass communism. then I'd tell everyone to eat their children.

That's why I hate jesus. in fact, I should be crowned the new Jesus so that I can declare capitalism kicks more ass than lame-ass communism. then I'd tell everyone to eat their children.
Children make very good stew.

Man, am I going to catch flak for this one.

I doubt it - I didn't when I came up with this same thread a year and a half ago.

One problem: you can't be a Communist and participate in or believe in any organized religion. For starters, you can't believe in God.

Kind of hard to get around that one.

This is just not true. Look at china, they have a long standing tradition of buddhism, and now christianity and islam have roots in the country too.

Ever heard of the Ten Commandments? One of them is "though shalt not steal." Jesus was not a thief. Hence, He couldn't have been a socialist. Socialism involves taking something that belongs to someone else against their will, and giving it to someone else, whether they earned it or not. Jesus believed in voluntary charity.

I think Jesus was more of a utopian communist. He dreamed of a world in which people cared each other as much as themselves and made the common good their chief concern, not the acquisition of wealth. No matter what you call it, it's the antithesis of capitalism

Children make very good stew.

Yes- just ask Swift.

Personally, I like children, but I couldn't eat a whole one. ;)

CApitalism BETTER than communism...
ok let me stop laughing.

I guess you hate being equal :D , i should have assumed i was better than you then shouldn't have I?

This is just not true. Look at china, they have a long standing tradition of buddhism, and now christianity and islam have roots in the country too.
Well you can't be in the Goverment.of course, mos of Gorbochafs officials were Christian, but he didn't find out.Putin was the head of some military thing.

Ever heard of the Ten Commandments? One of them is "though shalt not steal." Jesus was not a thief. Hence, He couldn't have been a socialist. Socialism involves taking something that belongs to someone else against their will, and giving it to someone else, whether they earned it or not. Jesus believed in voluntary charity.

Stealing is a little harsh a word for it, don't you think? I would much rather call it "Taxes". Like everyone pays, and in a socialist country, the rich pay a little (or a lot) more, and that is given to those that fell off the train at some stage. Jesus (the mythical person from the bible, i think the actual person living in about 7 AD would have had lots of opinions we don't know about) would have liked that idea. Certainly more than he would have liked Capitalism and it's rather demeaning manifestations.
Also, jesus believed in that if you didn't engage in voluntary charity, and you didn't feel like you wanted to repent, you went to hell, or am I mistaken? (what i know about Theology you can count on one hand)
And what would those honourable, hard-working businessmen (the jews that were doing the finance around the temple in jerusalem) have said about Jesus coming and meddling in their business? Sounds all kinda red to me...

I do know though that "thou shalt not steal" is from the old testament and as such has nothing to do with what jesus thinks or doesn't think.

No Christian can possibly be a Socialist or Marxist of any kind. Socialist beliefs = absolute denial of Christ, period. Any Christian believes in the original sin dogma, i.e. that all men are born already stained with the original sin and therefore are guaranteed to do evil at least once in a while. That's why God's saving grace and Christ's sacrifice are absolutely necessary. Socialism and all its neo-Marxist variations are based on the dogma that all men are born good and only "bad" societal order spoils them later, therefore if only the society is changed in some practical way, specifically private property is abolished (or some other evil eliminated - patriarchy, racism, sexism, whatever) there will instantly (or soon) be Heaven on Earth. This is a fundamentally un-Christian position, since it basically leaves no room for Christ (or worse, it makes Christ's sacrfice utterly unnecessary and makes God's sacrifice of his only son an act of perverted cruelty rather than abundant love). So Christians who vote for leftie candidates should not kid themselves - they are either very ignorant and/or stupid or not real Christians.

No Christian can possibly be a Socialist or Marxist of any kind. Socialist beliefs = absolute denial of Christ, period.
There are more socialist/communist theories out there than that advanced by Marx. Socialism can be highly compatible with religion.

I guess if you allow for Hegel's interpretation of Jesus, you could call him a communitarian, but the whole 'render unto Caesar' bit kind of takes him out of the picture as far as communism is concerned. Jesus wasn't worried enough with material and structural inequality; his views on empire were too passive for him to be an out-and-out communist. Anarchist? Yes. Communist? Not aggressive enough.

Jesus also lacked the historical perspective to be a communist in the truest sense of the word. The level of material development to a large extent informs ones political outlook, and you need to live in the Bourgeios/ Proletariat class division to be ontologically capable of seeing a way out of it. As far as I'm concerned, the massive time gap existing between Jesus and Marx is simply too wide to make any meaningful comparisons between the two. Better to let each stand on their own merits and fall due to their own weaknesses. That both contain the notion of a community of people being nice to each other is hardly a solid point of comparison; most ideologies claim this, even to some extent market ideology.

That's why I hate jesus. in fact, I should be crowned the new Jesus so that I can declare capitalism kicks more ass than lame-ass communism. then I'd tell everyone to eat their children.

Actually thousands of people in communist countries (e.g. USSR and Red China) did eat their children. Because they were hungry, courtesy of the government. Though usually they would not eat their own children (since it's just a little too hard) but rather swap children with their neighbors and then eat their neighbors' children. There's even a Chinese word for such swap but I don't remember it. That's what I always remember, e.g. when I read about the "plight" of Lori Berenson (who got busted for trying to impose the very same Maoism on Peru).

CApitalism BETTER than communism...
ok let me stop laughing.

I guess you hate being equal :D , i should have assumed i was better than you then shouldn't have I?

Equally impoverished, yeah, I'd hate that. Equality is overrated, too. Eliminates diversity and turns us into a mush of uniformity.

There are more socialist/communist theories out there than that advanced by Marx. Socialism can be highly compatible with religion.

I am not aware of any communist theory which does not claim that private property is a source of all evil and that abolishing it would make everybody good. Furthermore, without such claim communism can not work even in theory - otherwise even in theory the system is bound to crash because of people taking advantage of it.

And socialism is also absolutely incompatible with the Ten Commandments, particularly the ones against stealing and coveting. I take my religion seriously and therefore I shall never apply for any kind of welfare or Social Security.

Socialism and all its neo-Marxist variations are based on the dogma that all men are born good and only "bad" societal order spoils them later, therefore if only the society is changed in some practical way, specifically private property is abolished (or some other evil eliminated - patriarchy, racism, sexism, whatever) there will instantly (or soon) be Heaven on Earth.

Marxism makes claims as to the perfectability of humanity, not as to our inherently 'good' natures. People are moulded by their envirionments, and if that envirionment encourages a certain kind of behaviour, then that is how we will act. Communism merely provides the least violent and least contradictory structures. Christian morality is something to be superceded as it exists only as abstract right and wrong rather than as a materially realized ethical order. In my mind Christian and Socialist morality are still incompatable on a societal level because they claim authortiy from different sources; sources that are antithetical to one another. However, on a personal level, synthesis is possible because there's not so great a level of caring why people adhere to the rules in Marx as there is in other less materially oriented Hegelian thinkers. Your use of the words 'good' 'evil' and 'heaven' in reference to Marx pretty much indicate that you're talking out of your keister, but I thought I'd give you the lowdown anyway.

Actually thousands of people in communist countries (e.g. USSR and Red China) did eat their children. Because they were hungry, courtesy of the government. Though usually they would not eat their own children (since it's just a little too hard) but rather swap children with their neighbors and then eat their neighbors' children. There's even a Chinese word for such swap but I don't remember it. That's what I always remember, e.g. when I read about the "plight" of Lori Berenson (who got busted for trying to impose the very same Maoism on Peru).

Ever read 'Grapes of Wrath' or 'A Modest Proposal' (and yes I know it was satire)? Crap like that happens everywhere. People don't have to be communists to be nasty jerks, it's a quality that transcends ideological boundaries.

Stealing is a little harsh a word for it, don't you think?

How about "coveting"? There's a commandment against it too. And you blatantly violate it, e.g. when you apply for Social Security. Because you basically tell the government you want some of your neigbor's property - and you get it!

I guess if you allow for Hegel's interpretation of Jesus, you could call him a communitarian, but the whole 'render unto Caesar' bit kind of takes him out of the picture as far as communism is concerned.

how so? it's a story about jesus outsmarting the spies who were sent by the priests and scribes in order to trick him.

Ever read 'Grapes of Wrath' or 'A Modest Proposal' (and yes I know it was satire)? Crap like that happens everywhere.

No and no. Communists are singularly evil. Have you ever seen any political prisoners of Communism? I have. My grandparents saw thousands of them, as well as people dying of hunger right on the street and big bunches of starving people herded on a train and shipped off to die slowly...

I think a lot of the things Jesus may or may not have said, depending on whether or not you believe he existed - look exceptionally Communist. I don't think he would have gotten bogged down with all of the terms and labels for it.
While I myself don't believe in Jesus, I think the closest we've come to him in Canada at least would be Pierre Elliot Trudeau in most respects who wasn't really left or right leaning, but a mix of them all.

I certainly wouldn't want to be bound by the constraints of having to make my decisions based on the label I've been blessed, but the basic ideas of Communism, that every person is equal, everyone makes the same, sound like good ideas - Ideas which I support, but I think you'd have to travel back in time to ask him the questions yourself.

Although thinking about it - the church likes to be ultra-conservative and mean to women, and Jesus, being the first feminist, would probably be Ultra-leftwing to counter the church and continue the pattern.

Personally I like to believe that Apollonious, you know, the other messiah who came around Jesus' time (Who could do everything Jesus could + He could walk through walls) was a Marxist. Or would have been. Sweet Apollonious Christ.


Response to Midlands:
The same thing, if not a hundred times greater occured under Fascist rule: You know, the Holocaust? (So they started out as a Socialist party, Fascism is Fascism) Hell that happens under pretty much every oppresive political system. Your beef is with Authoritarianism, not Communism, my friend.

Your use of the words 'good' 'evil' and 'heaven' in reference to Marx pretty much indicate that you're talking out of your keister

Uhm, I've read thousands of pages of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin. And you?

how so? it's a story about jesus outsmarting the spies who were sent by the priests and scribes in order to trick him.

Jesus was one of Hegel's grand historical figures like Plato; he had an implicit understanding of the next stage of development of spirit, but, in the same manner as Plato, he appeared before his time and was executed for the threat that his vision represented to the existing order. They're both tragic figures within world history. In the sense that they both embody 'higher' notions of community, they could be considered communitarians. I can't recall exactly where the Jesus bit is, but I know there's a reference to figures like this I think in Reason in History. I can't say I remember where the story you refer to is from either. This stuff is a little fuzzy for me, and I'm having no luck with the online reference archive.

Actually thousands of people in communist countries (e.g. USSR and Red China) did eat their children. Because they were hungry, courtesy of the government. Though usually they would not eat their own children (since it's just a little too hard) but rather swap children with their neighbors and then eat their neighbors' children. There's even a Chinese word for such swap but I don't remember it. That's what I always remember, e.g. when I read about the "plight" of Lori Berenson (who got busted for trying to impose the very same Maoism on Peru).

Hey, I'm always up for learning something new, and I have heard lots of things be said about Communism, but I've never heard that one before. I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I would like to see some proof.
You say your relatives saw all these evil things happening, but where? "Red China", more politely referred to as the People's Republic of China, is not the same as the USSR, which is not the same as East Germany, which is not the same as what Berenson tried to do.
The only time people were starving on the streets in the USSR was in the famine right after the revolution, which was mainly caused by the war and some pretty bad Winters. The removal of the landowners might also have had something to do with it, but the very same famines happened before the Revolution as well. Similar things I would say of the PRC.
As to "coveting", yes if I didn't have a job, and I can't pay for my kids, and my father died and his employer got the life insurance rather than me, I dare say I would "covet" the money to pay the rent for my home.
Of course that is a sin and I would go straight to hell, but in practice, a person will save his skin rather than die in peace.
And what I'm saying is that your Jesus would have had more sympathy with that poor person than many of you seem to have.

One problem: you can't be a Communist and participate in or believe in any organized religion. For starters, you can't believe in God.

Kind of hard to get around that one.

Yes you can. Communism is an economic theory. The atheism is just a tack on. It's like saying you can't be a socialist if you don't like cold weather.

Besides which, Jesus wasn't in favor of organized religion. Didn't he say that only hypocrites pray publicly wearing their faith on their sleeves and that faith will only be rewarded by God if you shut the hell up about it?

I am not aware of any communist theory which does not claim that private property is a source of all evil and that abolishing it would make everybody good. Furthermore, without such claim communism can not work even in theory - otherwise even in theory the system is bound to crash because of people taking advantage of it.

And socialism is also absolutely incompatible with the Ten Commandments, particularly the ones against stealing and coveting. I take my religion seriously and therefore I shall never apply for any kind of welfare or Social Security.

If you've ever paid taxes then neither one of those is stealing. If you haven't paid taxes... well that's stealing. Whatever job you do you're supported by the infrastructure of the nation. Even if you live on a hidden dirt farm in the recesses of Yellowstone you owe the Federal Government for keeping other people from going there and turning it into a shopping mall. To not pay taxes is a theft of services.

Uhm, I've read thousands of pages of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin. And you?


Obviously thousands more than you. Next time you pick up a book, try forgetting about Jesus for a second and critically evaluate the work based on its own merits rather than recategorizing every concept to fit within whatever religious perspective you adhere to. It's not hard, and I'm sure Jesus won't be too upset if you put him aside for a moment.

How about "coveting"? There's a commandment against it too. And you blatantly violate it, e.g. when you apply for Social Security. Because you basically tell the government you want some of your neigbor's property - and you get it!

you must be unfamiliar with the biblical rules about leaving a portion of the harvest to the poor and fatherless and widows and foreigners. or the requirement to use tithes to feed them. oh, and the cancelling of debt. and the outright commandment to be openhanded and generous to the poor and needy and give them whatever they need.

i know, it's a minor point and only repeated a couple dozen times. i totally see how you could have missed it.

Socialism is a concept, an ideology and a collection of party-based political movements that have evolved and branched over time. Initially, it was based on the organized working class, with the purpose of building a classless society. But eventually, it increasingly concentrated on social reforms within modern democracies. This concept and the term Socialist also refer to a group of ideologies, an economic system, or a state that exists or has existed. See Definitions of Socialism.

In Marxist theory, it also refers to the society that would succeed capitalism, and in some cases develop further into communism. Marxism and communism are both very specific branches of socialism. The two do not represent socialism as a whole.

In modern socialist theory, it is in the pursuit of the goal of creating a democratic society that has a responsible people and a sympathetic government that would form the backbone of an ideal welfare state.

The word dates back at least to the early nineteenth century. It was first used, self-referentially, in the English language in 1827 to refer to followers of Robert Owen. In France, again self-referentially, it was used in 1832 to refer to followers of the doctrines of Saint-Simon and thereafter by Pierre Leroux and J. Regnaud in l'Encyclopédie nouvelle. Use of the word spread widely and has been used differently in different times and places, both by various individuals and groups that consider themselves socialist and by their opponents. While there is wide variation between socialist groups, nearly all would agree that they are bound together by a common history rooted originally in nineteenth and twentieth-century struggles by industrial and agricultural workers, operating according to principles of solidarity and advocating an egalitarian society, with an economics that would, in their view, serve the broad populace rather than a favored few.

This is from Wikipedia, as is this:

Communism is a term that can refer to one of several things: a social and economic system, an ideology which supports that system, or a political movement that wishes to implement that system.

As a theoretical social and economic system, communism would be a type of egalitarian society with no state, no privately owned means of production, no money and no social classes. In communism, all property is owned cooperatively and collectively, by the community as a whole, and all people have equal social and economic status and rights. Theoretically, under communism, human need or advancement is not left unsatisfied because of poverty, and is rather solved through distribution of resources as needed. This is thus often the system proposed to solve the problem of the capitalist poverty cycle.

Perhaps the best known maxim of a communist society is "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need." This economic model is also referred to as a gift economy.

As a political movement, communism is a more radical branch of the broader socialist movement. The communist movement differentiates itself from other branches of the socialist movement through their wish to completely do away with all aspects of market society under the final stage of the system, as well as their unshakable commitment to armed revolutionary strategies for overthrowing capitalism, and their focus on the international working class as key in that revolution. As a practical matter, however, most revolutions that attempted to implement a communist society and were successful at overthrowing the state, have resulted in totalitarian dictatorships. Whether they were actually communist is often disputed by Anarcho-communists.

So it may be useful to distinguish a little bit more between socialism and communism, then look at the intention behind it, then see whether Jesus could have been in agreement with these intentions, and then see whether he would have liked capitalism better.

Capitalism has been defined in various ways (see definitions of capitalism). In common usage it refers to an economic system in which all or most of the means of production are privately owned and operated for profit, and where investments, production, distribution, income, and prices are determined largely through the operation of a "free market" rather than by centralized state control (as in a command economy). All modern Western economies contain some degree of capitalism.

Most theories of what has come to be called capitalism developed in the 18th century, 19th century and 20th century, for instance in the context of the industrial revolution and European imperialism (e.g. Smith, Ricardo, Marx), The Great Depression (e.g.Keynes) and the Cold war (e.g. Hayek, Friedman). These theorists characterise capitalism as an economic system where capital is privately owned and economic decisions are determined in a free market --that is, by trades that occur as a result of voluntary agreement between buyers and sellers; where a market mentality and entrepreneurial spirit exists; and where specific, legally enforcable, notions of property and contract are instituted. Such theories typically try to explain why capitalist economies are likely to generate more economic growth than those subject to a greater degree of governmental intervention (see economics, political economy, laissez-faire). Some emphasize the private ownership of capital as being the essence of capitalism, while others emphasize the importance of a free market as a mechanism for the movement and accumulation of capital. Some note the growth of a global market system. Others focus on the application of the market to human labor. Others, such as Hayek, note the self-organizing character of economies who are not centrally-planned by government. Many of these theories call attention to various economic practices that became institutionalized in Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries, especially involving the right of individuals and groups of individuals acting as "legal persons" (or corporations) to buy and sell capital goods, as well as land, labor, and money (see finance and credit), in a free market (see trade), and relying on the state for the enforcement of private property rights rather than on a system of feudal protection and obligations.

Debates center on whether capitalism
-is an actual system, or an ideal
-has been actualized in particular economies, or if not, then to what degree capitalism exists in those (see mixed economy)
-is historically specific (that is, that it emerged at a specific time and place), or a system that has existed in various places at various times
-is a purely economic system, or a political, social, and cultural system as well
-is sustainable or not
-is rational or not
-tends to enrich more and more people, or to impoverish more and more people.

Aside from referring to an economic or political system, capitalism may also refer to the condition of owning capital. Likewise, in addition to the term "capitalist" referring to someone who favors capitalism, capitalist also commonly refers to a person who owns and control capital.

This is just not true. Look at china, they have a long standing tradition of buddhism, and now christianity and islam have roots in the country too.
And btw, China isn't communist.
Also, I'll say it again.Everything ma-made is flawed because man is flawed.ALL goverment is flawed.Jesus isn't.So how cold he be affiliated with goverment.

Also, I'll say it again.Everything ma-made is flawed because man is flawed.ALL goverment is flawed.Jesus isn't.So how cold he be affiliated with goverment.

well, according to the stories we have, jesus advocated certain principles for how people ought to live. so these principles can be compared to other proposed sets of principles to see how they compare to them, and we can come up with an appropriate name for them.

marxism is a christian heresy.

"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." - Karl Marx

"This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded, Gather of it every man according to his eating, an omer for every man, according to the number of your persons; take ye every man for them which are in his tents. And the children of Israel did so, and gathered, some more, some less. And when they did mete it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating." - Exodus 16:16-18

"The theory of Communism may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property." - The Communist Manifesto

"And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need." - Acts 2:44-45

This is just not true. Look at china, they have a long standing tradition of buddhism, and now christianity and islam have roots in the country too.
you need to read up on china

Yes,especialy the fact theat China is capitolist, and the second highest GPD per Capita in the world.

Nothing about Communism goes against Christian principles--only the people who lead the Communist countries. Inevitably, people try to take power, and this is what causes the trouble. If the person who lead the "government" didn't actually want more power than those around him/her (like Christ, for example) then Communism is the best way of life for all involved. Everyone contributes what he or she can, and everyone is given what they need to live comfortably. The trouble is that people often slack off because they're inherently lazy, and this makes the system unfair for people who work hard.

If you've ever paid taxes then neither one of those is stealing. If you haven't paid taxes... well that's stealing. Whatever job you do you're supported by the infrastructure of the nation. Even if you live on a hidden dirt farm in the recesses of Yellowstone you owe the Federal Government for keeping other people from going there and turning it into a shopping mall. To not pay taxes is a theft of services.

Not paying or evading taxes isn't just tax fruad it is against Jesus's words:
Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars. What person is on the coin? Ceasar so pay them that.

Pay the government that is the their money. What face is on the money today? Still the government thus pay the govt their money.

Jesus was big on paying taxes.


How about "coveting"? There's a commandment against it too. And you blatantly violate it, e.g. when you apply for Social Security. Because you basically tell the government you want some of your neigbor's property - and you get it!

Coveting isn't stealing directly. It can be linked but is not important. I can steal without coverting.
If I like your car and take it: my jealousy of your goods is what coveting requires. I have to want your stuff not just a spur of the money either.

When you apply for SS you are'nt looking at your neighbor and thinking " ...hmm after I reach 60-70 I can get some of Fred's money."

You instead think, if I ever become poor or unable to support myself I'll have money to fall back on (the purpose of SS anyway). Sure, it is my possible earned money I'm giving the Govt.

Intent is very big on Coveting. Same for Murder: Colds blooded murder is punished more harshly than hot blooded murder (Apparently killing in anger or in a split second is less bad than plotting and scheming for a while).
Still punished but less punished.

Midlands makes sterotypes and generalizations about christians:

No Christian can possibly be a Socialist or Marxist of any kind. Socialist beliefs = absolute denial of Christ, period.

Actually no, that is not true. Marxism requires that, not Socialism. You should read up on your terms. I met socialist Christians before. Jesus counts as a major one. Buddha is another. The Church of Jesus Chrost of Latterday Saints for a while when we owned just Utah was a Socialist Christian Nation. We had a storehouse where everyone put there extra stuff. It was usuable for all whoneeded something. Kinda of like a State sponsored welfare system...Socialism, anyone? No one was bad off they were all equal and much prosperity. Than they decided to join USA I think and slowly things changed. After years and a few new Prophets we seemed to water ourselves down to be more like "Christians" to blend to not stand out too much and stop persecution. We were supposed to stay Peculiar people. But hey, I'd say only 20% has been christrianized.

Any Christian believes in the original sin dogma, i.e. that all men are born already stained with the original sin and therefore are guaranteed to do evil at least once in a while.
That's why God's saving grace and Christ's sacrifice are absolutely necessary.
Socialism and all its neo-Marxist variations are based on the dogma that all men are born good and only "bad" societal order spoils them later, therefore if only the society is changed in some practical way, specifically private property is abolished (or some other evil eliminated - patriarchy, racism, sexism, whatever) there will instantly (or soon) be Heaven on Earth.
This is a fundamentally un-Christian position, since it basically leaves no room for Christ (or worse, it makes Christ's sacrfice utterly unnecessary and makes God's sacrifice of his only son an act of perverted cruelty rather than abundant love).


Nope, all men are not responsible for their fathers. It was in the Old Testament.
Children are free of all sin. They are not tainted. You cannot sin as a child. Until you reach age 8 and reah age of accountability you are spotless.(No matter how michevious or bad your kid is, he is clean till 8)

Man falls to sin beause of the devil and the natural man. The Natural man is the enemy of god.(also Old Testament)
You do realize that God says through his Apostles that there will be Heaven on Earth in the Latterdays (Book of Revelation).

Why do you say that itis unchrist-like to think men are good? Is God unchrist-like? Surely, you jest, good sir.

Christ sacrifice was necessary to further Heavenly Father's plan. Christ chose to come down here before the world was created. I was there as was you at the Great Council. When the Devil thought his plan should be accepted instead and rebelled.
Even if all mankind turned good on Earth; that would be meaningless if we could not be saved in Heaven. Christ came so that we might be redeemed. Also so that all those waiting in the Telestrial kindom (Moses, etc, Spirit psison) might finally be able to claim their glory in the Celestrial kindgom by knowing Christ.


So Christians who vote for leftie candidates should not kid themselves - they are either very ignorant and/or stupid or not real Christians.

I knew this would get back to a Bushite or worse a Roveite.

Look, I know many bad republicans (Nixon, Bush, Ms.
Laura Bush, etc) so I doubt God favors them more democtrats. Either way he is not a respectorof persons so he cares little about your party. Only your actions. (Oh by the way Laura killed someone when she was in her teens, drunk driving, but she never payed for it) But anyway.

So back off your flaming/attacking of political parties.

Ever heard of the Ten Commandments? One of them is "though shalt not steal." Jesus was not a thief. Hence, He couldn't have been a socialist. Socialism involves taking something that belongs to someone else against their will, and giving it to someone else, whether they earned it or not.

Assuming that you meant "THOU shalt not steal", I point you to Matthew 21:1-3, which reads as follows:

Mat 21:1 And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples,
Mat 21:2 Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose [them], and bring [them] unto me.
Mat 21:3 And if any [man] say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.

If he's not a thief, he's certainly here instructing his disciples to steal, "taking something that belongs to someone else against their will, and giving it to someone else, whether they earned it or not."

Not that Jesus seems to have respect for the Ten Commandments in general anyway. Remember where God says, "Honor thy father and thy mother"? Contrast Jesus's statement in Luke 14:26, as follows:

If any come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Far from being God, as Christians claim, Jesus was a dangerous false prophet, a cult leader bent on turning people away from God, the 1st Century equivalent of Charles Manson.

As well as being a socialist.

Ever heard of the Ten Commandments? One of them is "though shalt not steal." Jesus was not a thief. Hence, He couldn't have been a socialist. Socialism involves taking something that belongs to someone else against their will, and giving it to someone else, whether they earned it or not. Jesus believed in voluntary charity.

Ok, i didnt read all the pages and im sure this was responded to, but ever heard of "give unto cesar what cesar is due"? if your defining socialism as theft than obviously taxes are (if someone is voluntarily a part of a society than he's expected to provide for it and take from it) ,and there a part of most all societies and of course, jesus justified taxes.

Not paying or evading taxes isn't just tax fruad it is against Jesus's words:
Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars. What person is on the coin? Ceasar so pay them that.

Pay the government that is the their money. What face is on the money today? Still the government thus pay the govt their money.

Jesus was big on paying taxes.

the context of that passage actually gives a different message. it's more about jesus being a tricky bastard and pointedly not explicitly coming out and saying "fuck rome, we don't need them", to avoid falling into a trap set by his enemies.

luke 20:19-26

19 The teachers of the law and the chief priests looked for a way to arrest him immediately, because they knew he had spoken this parable against them. But they were afraid of the people.

20 Keeping a close watch on him, they sent spies, who pretended to be honest. They hoped to catch Jesus in something he said so that they might hand him over to the power and authority of the governor. 21 So the spies questioned him: "Teacher, we know that you speak and teach what is right, and that you do not show partiality but teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. 22 Is it right for us to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"

23 He saw through their duplicity and said to them, 24 "Show me a denarius. Whose portrait and inscription are on it?"

25 "Caesar's," they replied.
He said to them, "Then give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."

26 They were unable to trap him in what he had said there in public. And astonished by his answer, they became silent.

you need to read up on china

In the article "Communism" in the International Encyclopedia of the Social and Behavioral Sciences, A. Brown of the University of Oxford wrote that there were at most five communist countries as of 1995: China, Cuba, Laos, North Korea and Vietnam. This appears to be the case today as well.


as of 1995 china was still by definition communist. And buddhism has long been a common religious practice, even though the government was considered atheist.

China also does not have the 2nd highest gdp per capita, it is 6th.
link (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-04/24/content_326000.htm)

as of 1995 china was still by definition communist.

so it was a stateless, classless society? amazing!

No Christian can possibly be a Socialist or Marxist of any kind. Socialist beliefs = absolute denial of Christ, period.

Leo Tolstoi begs to differ (one of the many).

Any Christian believes in the original sin dogma, i.e. that all men are born already stained with the original sin and therefore are guaranteed to do evil at least once in a while.

You know, this view really isn't a far cry away from how many anarcho-communists saw human nature.

That's why God's saving grace and Christ's sacrifice are absolutely necessary. Socialism and all its neo-Marxist variations are based on the dogma that all men are born good and only "bad" societal order spoils them later,

No they are not. Surprisingly few actually think that people are innately good. Though they do agree on the corrupting nature of society.

therefore if only the society is changed in some practical way, specifically private property is abolished (or some other evil eliminated - patriarchy, racism, sexism, whatever) there will instantly (or soon) be Heaven on Earth. This is a fundamentally un-Christian position, since it basically leaves no room for Christ (or worse, it makes Christ's sacrfice utterly unnecessary and makes God's sacrifice of his only son an act of perverted cruelty rather than abundant love). So Christians who vote for leftie candidates should not kid themselves - they are either very ignorant and/or stupid or not real Christians.

Your very good at making strawmen, ever tried a wickerman?


I am not aware of any communist theory which does not claim that private property is a source of all evil and that abolishing it would make everybody good.

You know, there is more to marxism then that? There is more to communism then that?

(Though it is a bit strong to say "Private property is the source of all evil," and your being too simplistic thinking that marxists and communists think that the abolition of it will lead to everyone being good.)

Furthermore, without such claim communism can not work even in theory - otherwise even in theory the system is bound to crash because of people taking advantage of it.

Usually make unsupported assertion sir?

And socialism is also absolutely incompatible with the Ten Commandments, particularly the ones against stealing and coveting.

How?

And I don't mean repeat one of your silly little strawmen that caricatures socialism and communism and acts as if they are the same.

I take my religion seriously and therefore I shall never apply for any kind of welfare or Social Security.

owt about nowt right?

No and no. Communists are singularly evil. Have you ever seen any political prisoners of Communism? I have. My grandparents saw thousands of them, as well as people dying of hunger right on the street and big bunches of starving people herded on a train and shipped off to die slowly...

Stop treating communism as a monolith that is dominated by statist pissants with mustaches.

And btw, China isn't communist.
Also, I'll say it again.Everything ma-made is flawed because man is flawed.ALL goverment is flawed.Jesus isn't.So how cold he be affiliated with goverment.

Anarchy, it's the only way to beeeeee

Shut your face, anarchy is to Libritarian.No presidential canidate has been good sence Ronald Reagan, that's why I don't like my countries goverment.Hopefuly Conde willl win.

Jesus was a Communist. He believed all men should be servants of all others, and that none should be judged more worthy than another simply because of material wealth. Discuss amoungst yourselves.
--------
Man, am I going to catch flak for this one.
So, Jesus believed in freedom and equality.

Is that in Communism? I think you need to take a look at China and Cuba.

Shut your face,

Are you always this full of charm?

anarchy is to Libritarian.

:confused: You can be too libertarian?

No presidential canidate has been good sence Ronald Reagan, that's why I don't like my countries goverment.Hopefuly Conde willl win.

That may be, but what does that have to do with Jesus being a communist?

So, Jesus believed in freedom and equality.

Is that in Communism? I think you need to take a look at China and Cuba.

Yay! More of this "Lets treat communism as a monolithic strawman so we don't need to bother actually learning any of the various types." :rolleyes:

yay for jesus

Duh...Yes Jesus was a communist. The very first communist, where do you think the humanist ideals that spawned communism came from. The humanists read the bible in the rennaissance [something the catholic church didnt want you to do] then started working on how people should act towards each other yadda yadda then you get a few crack pots like marx and lenin who create the modern picture of communism. Which isnt what it should be lol [ sadly Stalin was GOOD for the people of russia..trotsky was worse, harsh marxist believe women were less then animals for males use and the like he would have easily killed more lol]

ohhh almos forgot *slaps forehead* that Stalin gave christmas back during world war II and the russian commies were allowed to be christian again after that so yeah religion and communism mix :)

Duh...Yes Jesus was a communist. The very first communist, where do you think the humanist ideals that spawned communism came from.

he wasn't the first. for that you'll have to look to ancient egalitarian foraging societies.

For some reason, I can't remember the part of the Bible where Christ mentioned class-conflict, and how the proletariat should start a political revolution, using violence and coercive propaganda to overthrow the bourgoisie, so they can forcefully redistribute wealth.

Anyone?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

For some reason, I can't remember the part of the Bible where Christ mentioned class-conflict, and how the proletariat should start a political revolution, using violence and coercive propaganda to overthrow the bourgoisie, so they can forcefully redistribute wealth.

Anyone?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Is that really the best you can do?

Is that really the best you can do?
No, wait, I just remembered.

The Communists were extremely religious. Yes, yes, I remember now. They were strong, faithful Christians.

oh my god....he was a facist and so was Jesus. I mean it is obvious he wasn't a communist, because he rose from the dead and lenin still hasn't!
I mean the vatican is one of the only dictatorships left in Europe and it is like gods recruitment office!

Thats also the reason everyone doesn't go to heaven, because we aren't all equal, as we would be in a socialist state. You take something of your neighbors and don't ask for forgivness you're going to burn sucka!

Also, thats why communism hasn't succeeded, because jesus doesn't want it to. That why the facist were on the side of the catholics in the Spanish civil war and the commies were with the athiest anarchist.

Sieg Heil Jesus!

Yay! More of this "Lets treat communism as a monolithic strawman so we don't need to bother actually learning any of the various types." :rolleyes:


To be fair, that is how communists and their ilk tend to treat free market economies.

Anyway, communism is a discredited 19th century idea, christianity is a discredited 1st century idea. The two can hardly be compatible, except for the discredited bit.

No, wait, I just remembered.

The Communists were extremely religious. Yes, yes, I remember now. They were strong, faithful Christians.
:rolleyes:

What do you mean by "The Communists" being whatever. They aren't a homogenous group. You treating them as one is just absurd.

And there have been many Christian Communists, even Christian Marxists.

To be fair, that is how communists and their ilk tend to treat free market economies.

True. Neither side is clean.

Anyway, communism is a discredited 19th century idea, christianity is a discredited 1st century idea. The two can hardly be compatible, except for the discredited bit.

:D

I can always rely on NS to make me giggle

ohhh almos forgot *slaps forehead* that Stalin gave christmas back during world war II and the russian commies were allowed to be christian again after that so yeah religion and communism mix :)
Actually, the entire resurgance of religion in the USSR during WWII was because it was at a low point for the armies of the USSR, the German forces were sweeping through the nation, and Stalin saw it as not only a good PR thing, but also a good move for morale, to re-open the churches and let the citizens find comfort in Christ if they so desired.

However, the very proof that they DID supports that Communism and religion can easily coincide.

I'm still not convinced that Jesus was "a Communist", however. But I'll check back every few days and see if I can be turned ;) Best of luck, tsipotchka

For some reason, I can't remember the part of the Bible where Christ mentioned class-conflict, and how the proletariat should start a political revolution, using violence and coercive propaganda to overthrow the bourgoisie, so they can forcefully redistribute wealth.

on this count jesus was more of a crimethinc-er. fucking dumpster diving traveller kid messiahs. that's no way to win the revolution.

but he did have a thing for whipping capitalists.

But Jesus said to them again, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

Well if he wasn't a socialist he certainly would have had no truck with rabid capitalism either.

Ever heard of the Ten Commandments? One of them is "though shalt not steal." Jesus was not a thief. Hence, He couldn't have been a socialist. Socialism involves taking something that belongs to someone else against their will, and giving it to someone else, whether they earned it or not. Jesus believed in voluntary charity.
Which is why Jesus would be an anarcho-communist. Everything goes towards the common good, because the people own the means of production.

OK, we believe that to tax private property is theft. But communists believe that private property is theft, so from their perspective, it is capitalists who break the 10 Commandments.

CApitalism BETTER than communism...
ok let me stop laughing.

I guess you hate being equal :D , i should have assumed i was better than you then shouldn't have I?
or...
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of happiness; the inherent virtue of communism is the equal sharing of misery.

Communism might be great if it actually worked to bring prosperity.

The Communists were extremely religious. Yes, yes, I remember now. They were strong, faithful Christians.
Without a doubt (http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~rbear/digger.html)
they were communists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism)
Christian Left (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Left)

Hey, if Jesus was a filthy Commie, how come he was the King of the Jews, not the "comrade" of the Jews?

For some reason, I can't remember the part of the Bible where Christ mentioned class-conflict, and how the proletariat should start a political revolution, using violence and coercive propaganda to overthrow the bourgoisie, so they can forcefully redistribute wealth.

Anyone?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

That wasn't the point of the original post. The point was that Jesus would have agreed with the basic idealistic tenets of Communism, not necessarily the practical implementation. I doubt he would have agreed with the murder of 20 million or more people in the USSR by Stalin (we'll never really know the real number), but one could argue that was not a Communist system, but a dictatorship.

The basic tenets like all men (and women) are equal in the eyes of a higher power (be that the state or God), the meek shall inherit the earth, etc. Read the New Testament a bit, it makes sense.

He was an altruist, not a communist.

Hey, if Jesus was a filthy Commie, how come he was the King of the Jews, not the "comrade" of the Jews?

*sigh* He never asked to be King of the Jews. That was a misconception and misnomer held by the ruling priest class of the day. Read about the last supper and the washing of feet. He was sent to earth not to rule all with an iron fist but as a servant to die for our sins. Remember, he rode into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday on a donkey, not a white stallion.

P.S-I know it was said in jest, but ignorant jests aren't as funny as informed jests; you have to know your topic front and back to be able to make fun of it, or you come off like a jackass.

P.P.S- I come off like a devout follower-In fact, I'm an atheist. But that doesn't mean I can't know the Bible. It's a helluva book.

That wasn't the point of the original post. The point was that Jesus would have agreed with the basic idealistic tenets of Communism, not necessarily the practical implementation.
Does agreeing with altruistic principles, which Communist has, make you a Communist?

For example, is the Dali Lama a Communist? What about Mother Theresa?

Does Communism have a monopoly on principles of charity, and opposing materialism? And was Jesus very active in politics?

*sigh* He never asked to be King of the Jews.
He never asked to be "Communist" of the Jews, either.

All the religious people I know of seem to think that money, and greed are extremely evil things. Jesus was definately a red pig.

Although communism is kinda neat.