NationStates Jolt Archive

I've been on Nationstates for quite awhile (using differant accounts, that's why my post count is low. I've just got back into the forums :) ) and have noticed something - there are far too many anti-communist threads. I just wanted to start a thread that pointed out the flaws in capitalism, rather than the usual anti-communist ones. (note: i don't want this to be flame-bait, so if you feel indignant about this and do not wish to participate in a proper debate; please don't say anything. Thank you.)

The bourgeoisie, wherever it has got the upper hand, has put an end to all feudal, patriarchal, idyllic relations. It has pitilessly torn asunder the motley feudal ties that bound man to his "natural superiors", and has left no other nexus between people than naked self-interest, than callous "cash payment". It has drowned out the most heavenly ecstacies of religious fervor, of chivalrous enthusiasm, of philistine sentimentalism, in the icy water of egotistical calculation. It has resolved personal worth into exchange value, and in place of the numberless indefeasible chartered freedoms, has set up that single, unconscionable freedom -- Free Trade. In one word, for exploitation, veiled by religious and political illusions, it has substituted naked, shameless, direct, brutal exploitation.

So, you see, this is what my point is about. Feel free to discuss as you will. If any flame comes on here; I'm going to kill this thread. But thank you in advance for restraining yourselfs from flame-wars.

Aleksei

That entire paragraph is emotive rambling. He could have just stated that Capitalism is based on exploitation, which is untrue.

EDIT: And these threads usually stay flame free.

You can pick a better paragraph then that to cite if you actually want discussion. Upon close inspection, what you posted makes little sense. I suppose I could say something like 'If the freedoms are indefeasable then how are they being taken away?' and go on to show that we do have freedoms despite the perceived oppression of capitalism. That wouldn't get us anywhere, though. I figured that, because of the title of the thread, you wanted us to discuss why capitalism isn't a sustainable system.

I agree that capitalism has its problems. I just severely disagree with Marx's solutions.

The fact of the matter is that if you teach someone ethics, then you teach them capitalism, it works wonderfully. If you ignore the ethics, no system will work well.

In an era of relative morality, are we really surprised when things like the Enron and Worldcom debacles show up?

I've been on Nationstates for quite awhile (using differant accounts, that's why my post count is low. I've just got back into the forums :) ) and have noticed something - there are far too many anti-communist threads. I just wanted to start a thread that pointed out the flaws in capitalism, rather than the usual anti-communist ones. (note: i don't want this to be flame-bait, so if you feel indignant about this and do not wish to participate in a proper debate; please don't say anything. Thank you.)



So, you see, this is what my point is about. Feel free to discuss as you will. If any flame comes on here; I'm going to kill this thread. But thank you in advance for restraining yourselfs from flame-wars.

Aleksei

Maybe you should have quoted from Capital where he explains what Capitalisms inherent contradictions are. (IIRC the contradictions are in Capital).

Though currently I only have notes that are relevent to the exams I am siting at the moment so don't have them too hand.

Let me put something right: The big difference between Capitalism and Communism is that Communism is prettymuch dead (what is left of it in this world is a pathetic joke...). And those who still believe into Communism have lost their perception of reality.

In contrast, Capitalizm is alive and healthy, and it's unlikely that's going to change. So, saying "why capitalism will never work" is simply not true. :rolleyes:

In an era of relative morality, are we really surprised when things like the Enron and Worldcom debacles show up?

And note that both Enron and Worldcom were guilty of illegal actions in a capitalist society.

Just because people get exploited in our current system doesn't mean that capitalism should be scrapped.

He could have just stated that Capitalism is based on exploitation, which is untrue.

I feel that you may be right that capitalism itself may not be based on exploitation (as capitalism existed before the bourgeois epoch) but that their point was that the people in power used capitalism to their advantage. The bourgeoisie used the proletariat to their advantage and that that is what they were saying in their "emotive ramblings".

Besides - I chose that paragraph as it shows that the ultimate of capitalism, the bourgios epoch, is inherantly evil; in a "civilized" world we should not allow such things to exists

I'd also like to point out that nearly all western countries are socialist. Yes, even the USA.

If Capitalism will never work, why do most countries follow its system?

Answer: It's less idealistic than communism. Case closed.

~Czardas, Terse Ruler of the Universe

If Capitalism will never work, why do most countries follow its system?

Answer: It's less idealistic than communism. Case closed.

~Czardas, Terse Ruler of the Universe

??? Alright, this thread is about 10 minutes old and i'm already confused about the subject! At last check it was about the exploitation of the proletariat, not about why most countries follow the capitalist system. Am I right?

Answer: It's less idealistic than communism. Case closed.


Idealism is inversely proportional to desirability?

I feel that you may be right that capitalism itself may not be based on exploitation (as capitalism existed before the bourgeois epoch) but that their point was that the people in power used capitalism to their advantage. The bourgeoisie used the proletariat to their advantage and that that is what they were saying in their "emotive ramblings".

Besides - I chose that paragraph as it shows that the ultimate of capitalism, the bourgios epoch, is inherantly evil; in a "civilized" world we should not allow such things to exists


Why is evil bad if it allows people to rise or fall on their own merits?

If Capitalism will never work, why do most countries follow its system?

Answer: It's less idealistic than communism. Case closed.

~Czardas, Terse Ruler of the Universe

Not exactly. Communism would literally destroy entire private businesses, and that ruins government economic infrastructure, which is why Communism is so frowned upon. But then again, I'm a communist, so...yah.

I'd also like to point out that nearly all western countries are socialist. Yes, even the USA.

I'd also like to point out that thier capitalist so whats the point.

Communism and capitalism have never been praticed in their truest form so modern day or past examples should not be used it should be the ideals of both. not whats working and whats not. I personally feel that the Ideal Communist system is much better then the Ideal Capitalist system in many ways.

I feel that you may be right that capitalism itself may not be based on exploitation (as capitalism existed before the bourgeois epoch) but that their point was that the people in power used capitalism to their advantage. The bourgeoisie used the proletariat to their advantage and that that is what they were saying in their "emotive ramblings".

1. People cannot use capitalism to their advantage. Capitalism grants no one more goods or money than they are born with the ability to produce.

2. It is impossible to legally "use" another person in a free market capitalistic society. People can only enter into contracts out of their own free will. If they enter into a contract out of their own free will that monetarily hurts them then it is the fault of the person hurt, not the person who benefits.

I'd also like to point out that nearly all western countries are socialist. Yes, even the USA.

Some socialistic policies are necessary to protect the labor side of the free market.

I think I have a simple solutions, make Capitalism, Fascism and Conservativism join together, then go against communism, liberalism and any other left-wing "ism" you can think of.

People can only enter into contracts out of their own free will.

You are starving, your family is starving. Someone comes up to you and offers to pay you £1 an hour for fourteen hours a day six days a week. You accept of your own free will. You must or you will die.

BTW - America, like Vittoss Ordination said, has some government policies to maintain the support of the people. In a truely capitalist society, no government policies would be in place to "protect" the worker.

I think I have a simple solutions, make Capitalism, Fascism and Conservativism join together, then go against communism, liberalism and any other left-wing "ism" you can think of.

Fascism and conservatism suck, I would like to keep my capitalism free, thank you very much.

If Capitalism can't work, it sure did a great job hiding it for the last few thousand years. Capitalism is supposed to reward the workers by giving them something and nothing to the lazy. Communism couldn't last very long because everyone got equal everything, which gave many a reason to not work. People got lazy. The economy crumbled. In contrast, the lazy get less in Capitalism unless they are lucky. If you created a business and put all your effort into succeeding, you would most likely succeed. Of course, Capitalism rewards the sin of greed while Communism rewards the sin of laziness, so they are both severaly flawed. The only difference is, Capitalism lasted for thousands of years since the days when currency was a new concept. In fact, Bartering is capitalism. Instead of trading meat for tools, you trade goods for currency. Communism has only been put into effect since the 1920's and it is already crumbling because of the communists desire to make enemies with the capitalistic powers. That's why they call Russia the FORMER Soviet Union and why most, if not all, communist nations are pretty much second or third world. Capitalism does work. Otherwise, trading would never have caught on.

You are starving, your family is starving. Someone comes up to you and offers to pay you £1 an hour for fourteen hours a day six days a week. You accept of your own free will. You must or you will die.

I am not a capitalist for capitalism's sake, I am a capitalist for the free market's sake. Capitalism is the only system that I feel could foster a free market. Unfortunately, that situation would be an example of capitalist exploitation. Situations like that are few and far between in developed countries, though.

BTW - America, like Vittoss Ordination said, has some government policies to maintain the support of the people. In a truely capitalist society, no government policies would be in place to "protect" the worker.

A truely capitalistic economy would also not allow that sort of exploitation to exist as it is theft. In a true capitalist society a person would recieve the exact financial reimbursement for the value of the labor provided to society.

If it wasnt for capitalism, you wouldnt be looking at this forum board, if Capitalism does not work, the other systems never will.
We had proof that democracy and Capitalism is the best way to enforce Human Rights.
I do not believe a classless society, or Industries owned publicly would ever work,Some eastern European nations are living proof of other economic system failures.

I am not a capitalist for capitalism's sake, I am a capitalist for the free market's sake. Capitalism is the only system that I feel could foster a free market. Unfortunately, that situation would be an example of capitalist exploitation. Situations like that are few and far between in developed countries, though.

Once again Mutualism gets ignored :( (http://www.mutualist.org/index.html)

Once again Mutualism gets ignored :( (http://www.mutualist.org/index.html)

I had never read anything of Mutualism before, but if you had followed my posts closely, you would have noticed that I was pretty close to a mutualist without even knowing it.

I would say that, with the growing financial understanding, accessibility, an flexibility of the middle class, combined with the growth of equity financing in businesses, that mutualism could very easily spring out of the US's present capitalist system. We just need to get rid of the corporatists in the White House and the rest of government.

The virtue of capiltalism lies in the unequal sharing of wealth, the virtue of socialism lies in the equal sharing of miseries.

Capitalism might not be perfect, but unfortunately its the best we've got. If socialism and communism were capable of the same production and direction of wealth as capitalism, then wow, we'd have a humdinger of an ethical dilemma wouldnt we? But as it would seem, socialism cannot, and never has reached the same production as capitalism. Its silly to argue about it. As for Marx, yea, just keep waiting for that world revolution guys. Its totally coming. The formation of the labor union and government controls certainly hasn't led us to sustainable capitalism. The only thing you will achieve by embracing socialism is the starvation of your people, and to add to the proverbial deal, probably the elimination of all political and civil rights while you're at it.

Wel of course it won't work.It is a goverment which is man-made, therefore flawed.But it's the best we got.
(Note:I am no an anarchist.That is VERY flawed.)

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under socialism, the reverse is true.