NationStates Jolt Archive

I was recently flipping through the channels and I was bored so I watched a Christian channel (I'm not Christian, I just am always curious to hear thier point of view). He said something about all animals bieng dammed to hell because they couldn't pray. But then why would God make animals? Was the reverand just wrong?

My very-Christian friend says that animals don't have souls.

I was recently flipping through the channels and I was bored so I watched a Christian channel (I'm not Christian, I just am always curious to hear thier point of view). He said something about all animals bieng dammed to hell because they couldn't pray. But then why would God make animals? Was the reverand just wrong?
Well, I think he was.

But I'm not sure what will actually happen to animals.

The Bible is vague on the subject. There are passages describing the world set right by God, which contain imagery of predators lying down with their former prey, and little children being safe around snakes (Isaiah chapter 11 is the example I just found). I don't know how literally we're supposed to take that.

To sum up, dunno.

:confused:

oh, nevermind those crazy people on the tv. i've never heard anything like that. i did hear from a religion teacher once that animals, appart from humans, couldn't go to heaven, much to the horror of my kitty-loving friend, but there was nothing said of damnation

i'm not sure where, but i'm pretty sure the Bible says animals have no souls...if they did, then they could pray. just because you don't pray doesn't mean you're going to hell, only if u sin and you don't pray. animals don't sin, so i think if they had souls they'd go to heaven. hope that helps, but, to tell the truth, i really don't think it matters.

Personally, for my specific belief system, I'd say he's wrong. I (and most Friends) believe in That of God in all things, a spark of the divine in all of creation that allows a direct and personal communion with divinity. Thus, I can't imagine God, at least any god worth believing in, would create something only to condemn it to eternal torment after first putting a piece of itself to ride shotgun.

Also, I find the idea of animals in hell sort of contradictory. If an animal doesn't have a soul to begin with (which is what many Christians seem to believe), how can it be sent to hell?

I think that preacherman was talking out of his ass.

according to most christian denominations animals dont have souls. when they die they die. they dont go to heaven or hell; they just cease to exist.

Personally, for my specific belief system, I'd say he's wrong. I (and most Friends) believe in That of God in all things, a spark of the divine in all of creation that allows a direct and personal communion with divinity. Thus, I can't imagine God, at least any god worth believing in, would create something only to condemn it to eternal torment after first putting a piece of itself to ride shotgun.

Also, I find the idea of animals in hell sort of contradictory. If an animal doesn't have a soul to begin with (which is what many Christians seem to believe), how can it be sent to hell?

I think that preacherman was talking out of his ass.

That makes perfect sense.

out of all the bizarre, insane, and frankly offensive things Judeo-Christianity has ever tried to pull, I find that one of the most bizarre, insane and offensive is the "animals don't have souls" bs. wtf is that all about???

a safe bet- if you come across anyone discussing religion outside of the place of worship- change the channel, close the door, hang up the phone or walk away. Dont get sucked in to the converation. They have a captive audience in church. If there arent enough people in there, than maybe something is wrong, dont you think ?

I'm sure any cat or dog owner like myself can vouch that animals certainly have what we consider 'the soul' My cat definatly has his own personality, needs, emotions.

if animals had souls, wouldn't it be murder to eat them?

if animals had souls, wouldn't it be murder to eat them?

If people had souls, wouldn't it be murder to kill them? Even in war?

I guess it's a matter of perspective.

*sighs*

God created Heaven and Earth especially for humans, not for anything else. Don't worry animal lovers, they won't go to Hell (may I just say that Hell is often mistook for all that hellfire and brimstone rubbish - it is merely a place that God doesn't inhabit, which is really the worse place you can go), sin is a human condition; the reverend was indeed talking out of his ass - beware of false prophets.

I wouldn't bother yourselves with questions like this - its your own spiritual welfare God is worried about.

If people had souls, wouldn't it be murder to kill them? Even in war?

I guess it's a matter of perspective.

In war you are supposed to be defending your country/family/self

But little fluffy lambs don't threaten you. And you don't need to eat them at all. It's all for pleasure.

Heaven and Hell (at least as far as my non-denomination self would believe) are conditions of the soul. A soul that is "light" of sin will rise and a soul that is "heavy with sin will fall. Earth is a condition of choices where we choose the course of our soul; it is full of trials and tests where the outcome adds or removes weight from our souls. The Devil (from the Greek root diabolos meaning "to slander") is the symbolic embodiment of obstacles and trials of the soul. In this plane of existence he is not a horned red man with a tail and a trident, he is interwoven into our very existence, an aspect of it so to speak. This being a condition that he was "cast down" too.

Animals (as we know them here) do not have souls, as such they are not capable of reaching any other condition of existence. You can't hope to reach another condition of the soul if you have none, understand?

*sighs*

God created Heaven and Earth especially for humans, not for anything else. Don't worry animal lovers, they won't go to Hell (may I just say that Hell is often mistook for all that hellfire and brimstone rubbish - it is merely a place that God doesn't inhabit, which is really the worse place you can go), sin is a human condition. I don't have a clue if they go to heaven.

I wouldn't bother yourselves with questions like this - its your own spiritual welfare God is worried about.


are not all things in creation a part of god if god created them? why do you put humans above animals? because you read a book that said so?

edit: nvrmnd, sorry this is a thread for Christians to share their believfs and not a debate about Christianity. I retract my question.

if animals had souls, wouldn't it be murder to eat them?


No-in that case, killing would be murder. Eating them would just be eating them.

are not all things in creation a part of god if god created them? why do you put humans above animals? because you read a book that said so?

That is true, if so, why are you using a fact taken from the Holy Bible to support your argument?

No-in that case, killing would be murder. Eating them would just be eating them.

how is killing a defenceless fluffy little lamb not murder if it has a soul? You don't need to kill it, you do it for pleasure.

Oh ya, I just wanted to add that it is people like the one the OP was referring that keeps me out of Church. I get the impression that this guy doesn't know his ass from his elbow concerning his own faith. Scary...

That is true, if so, why are you using a fact taken from the Holy Bible to support your argument?


is the holy bible the only book/belief system that says all things are part of the creator? is teh holy bible the only thing that says there is a creator that brought about the existence of all things? no

I was recently flipping through the channels and I was bored so I watched a Christian channel (I'm not Christian, I just am always curious to hear thier point of view). He said something about all animals bieng dammed to hell because they couldn't pray. But then why would God make animals? Was the reverand just wrong?

Are you saying that all Christians are alike? In the same way that people who are rude call all Moslems alike?

Are you saying that all Christians are alike? In the same way that people who are rude call all Moslems alike?

I think he was saying that he wanted to hear what other Christians thought about what one of their fellow Christians said. I personally don't think animals go to hell. I like to imagine that they'll go to heaven, but who knows but God? When He creates the new world, once this one is ended, then he will probably again create animals to live there. I think God always created animals to die, but he didn't create humans to die, which is why he was so saddened when he was disobeyed by Adam and Eve.

fluffy lambs people?

Animals (as we know them here) do not have souls, as such they are not capable of reaching any other condition of existence. You can't hope to reach another condition of the soul if you have none, understand?

But why don't they have souls? What is the qualitative difference that makes us , as humans, able to play host to a soul but limits animals? Every animal exhibits traits of personality, choice, pleasure and pain. A soul, if such an esoteric concept truly exists, seems to be a summation of these things. If the animals feel them, what precludes them from also having a soul?

In war you are supposed to be defending your country/family/self

But little fluffy lambs don't threaten you. And you don't need to eat them at all. It's all for pleasure.

The motive is immaterial. A soul's a soul, by your argument. You have one or you don't and if you do have one, it's murder to kill you.

The motive is immaterial. A soul's a soul, by your argument. You have one or you don't and if you do have one, it's murder to kill you.

so are you agreeing then? That if animals have souls it is murder?

I cant remember where, but I belive CS Lewis had some things to say on that subject, if you are willing to do some research.
Lewis does more than write stories by the way, he has written several outstanding philosophy/theology books.

how is killing a defenceless fluffy little lamb not murder if it has a soul? You don't need to kill it, you do it for pleasure.

They've already answered...
-KILLING- the animal is murder (and thus sin)...
the -eating- in and by itself would -not- be murder... since the fluffy little lamb is already dead... (unless you mean that people eat the flyffy lambs while the lambs are still alive)

I'm sure any cat or dog owner like myself can vouch that animals certainly have what we consider 'the soul' My cat definatly has his own personality, needs, emotions.
my cat has her own personality, she certainly has free will
but there is no chance in hell she worships anyone but herself so if she has a soul and god is jealous, she's damned.

But why don't they have souls? What is the qualitative difference that makes us , as humans, able to play host to a soul but limits animals? Every animal exhibits traits of personality, choice, pleasure and pain. A soul, if such an esoteric concept truly exists, seems to be a summation of these things. If the animals feel them, what precludes them from also having a soul?

We where given them, this is the foundation of all Christian principles from Genesis on. This thread is about how Christian belief stands on the subject of animals. I stated to the best of my ability that position.

Even if you have a purely secular look on life and believe that religion is just the product of human imagination you would have to conclude that the soul to is only a part of our imagination. Since humans are the only one to make such a claim, we hold the cards.

They've already answered...
-KILLING- the animal is murder (and thus sin)...
the -eating- in and by itself would -not- be murder... since the fluffy little lamb is already dead... (unless you mean that people eat the flyffy lambs while the lambs are still alive)

surely getting someone else to murder for you is a sin?

What about eating corpses from the graveyard?

so are you agreeing then? That if animals have souls it is murder?

Not necessarily. I'm saying that, by your logic, if a thing has a soul, to kill them, across the board, regardless of reason, is murder.

My own thoughts on the subject are far more complex.

Not necessarily. I'm saying that, by your logic, if a thing has a soul, to kill them, across the board, regardless of reason, is murder.

My own thoughts on the subject are far more complex.

well do enlighten the rest of us then

my cat has her own personality, she certainly has free will
but there is no chance in hell she worships anyone but herself so if she has a soul and god is jealous, she's damned.

Heh, cats can't go to hell...but they sure can come from there. :)

I'm a Jew, just for reference.

I'm not so sure animals don't have souls. Nothing in the Scriptures indicates one way or another, as it is concerned with keeping mankind from Hell, not animals. Also, animals are used in many references to Heaven, not to mention Baalam's talking donkey who could see the angel of the Lord sent to kill him.

So I think animals have souls.

Regardless of that truth or falsehood, the Scriptures do not state anything akin to Hell being the destination of animals. This is a complete lie.

Mankind is not destined to Heaven because he rebelled/rebels against God. The Perfect Sacrifice is to cover the guilt that all men share of sin, and wipe it away. Since animals were not part of the Fall, and we don't know if they had a "Fall" of their own or not, we can only assume that they are not destined to Hell.

If one looks at the Creator and all the wonderful systems and objects He made, it becomes hard to justify stating that He would make something only for destruction. As I believe there is a purpose in all He does, I find that my conscience indicates that animals will indeed be in Heaven. After all, it is where we will be reunited with all our loved ones who have passed on. That would include beloved pets as well as family/friends, would it not? Who here has considered a pet to be a member of the family?

I was recently flipping through the channels and I was bored so I watched a Christian channel (I'm not Christian, I just am always curious to hear thier point of view). He said something about all animals bieng dammed to hell because they couldn't pray. But then why would God make animals? Was the reverand just wrong?Sure. As a Christian sans ties to any specific church/sect.

Unfortunately anyone who is still breathing can turn their collar around, lift up a cross, and start preaching "christianity" in any flavor they happen to like.

This guy sounds like an idiot to me.

I was recently flipping through the channels and I was bored so I watched a Christian channel (I'm not Christian, I just am always curious to hear thier point of view). He said something about all animals bieng dammed to hell because they couldn't pray. But then why would God make animals? Was the reverand just wrong?
yes he was

I cant remember where, but I belive CS Lewis had some things to say on that subject, if you are willing to do some research.
Lewis does more than write stories by the way, he has written several outstanding philosophy/theology books.

Love Lewis! As far as the subject of animal souls, though, I think he was on the fence. He disagreed with animal testing and vivisection (with the very good quote, "I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was Feed my sheep, not Try experiments on my rats, or even Teach my performing dogs new tricks."). However, in his personal opinion, he was inclined to believe that "fewer animals than are supposed have what we should recognize as consciousness." He tempered this, though, by saying that since we can't be sure, we must error on the side of caution and behave as if they do.

He also threw out the great quote, "If we cut up beasts simply because we are backing our own side in the struggle for existence, it is only logical to cut up imbeciles, criminals, enemies, or capitalists for the same reason."

at least the vegetables will be saved

I saw a kids animation about christian vegetables at a friends house - called veggie tales I think

First things first......
The idea of a "soul" as we may think of it, i.e. a supernatural cloud of the essence of ourselves, is contradictory to the Bible period.

When we die, we die, and we dont go anywhere. From ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Therefore, since humans dont have "souls", animals dont either. So, no one is damned to hell immediately after they die.

It is true that God wouldn't create things just to destroy them. God loves all his creations, and since animals dont really have the free will to make desicions based upon rational thought, but mostly on instinct and whatnot, animals are blameless.

When God finally creates his Kingdom of Heaven on Earth after the defeat of the Beast and the 1000 year reign, God will have made perfect all those who are saved, plus the animals. It does say that in the kingdom of Heaven, animals will lie down (not biblically) with other animals, and they will not eat each other. Animals will be perfect and so will the humans, because Heaven is a place of perfection.
So do animals go to hell? Of course not. God, as the super-intelligent, rational deity that he is, sees the contradiction in that argument, and would not condemn animals to hell, save the one serpent in the garden of Eden who persuaded Eve to eat the apple from the Tree of Life, but then again, that serpent was either Satan or posessed by Satan for manipulative reasons.

That pastor doesn't know what hes talking about. :gundge:

well do enlighten the rest of us then

I sort of already have. By the nature of my belief, there is That of God in all things. It is at best nonsesical to assume that God would include a portion of himself only to condemn that thing to eternal damnation or essential nonbeing. At worst, it renders the god insane or at least incredibly viscious.

Therefore I do believe animals have souls, at least inasmuch as any living thing can be said to have one.

This leads me to the conclusion that to deprive any living thing of life is, indeed, a direct attack on God and to be avoided. However, to ignore the basic requirements of biology is also silly. People eat meat. I eat meat. Does this mean I murder? By extention, perhaps it does. At least I am able to admit and examine my hypocracy which means I may be able to change it at some point in the future.

I apologize, for the previous post, I forgot to clarify a couple of things.....

When we die, we die, we dont go anywhere immediately, but all that have ever lived on the Earth will be resurrected to the final judgement after the 1000 year reign, and I doubt this will include animals. If animals were, then why not insects? reptiles? There would be trillions upon trillions of things that have lived and died in the 5 billion years Earth has been around. I dont think we are going to wake up from death on Judgement day only to see a Tyranosauras Rex walking around.....neither will we see animals risen from the dead. But since the Kingdom of Heaven will be on Earth, it is only rational to tihnk that animals will still be there.

I sort of already have. By the nature of my belief, there is That of God in all things. It is at best nonsesical to assume that God would include a portion of himself only to condemn that thing to eternal damnation or essential nonbeing. At worst, it renders the god insane or at least incredibly viscious.

Therefore I do believe animals have souls, at least inasmuch as any living thing can be said to have one.

This leads me to the conclusion that to deprive any living thing of life is, indeed, a direct attack on God and to be avoided. However, to ignore the basic requirements of biology is also silly. People eat meat. I eat meat. Does this mean I murder? By extention, perhaps it does. At least I am able to admit and examine my hypocracy which means I may be able to change it at some point in the future.

you do not need to eat meat. So why not turn veggie?

at least the vegetables will be saved

I saw a kids animation about christian vegetables at a friends house - called veggie tales I think
the veggies are saved so we can eat them

being raised roman catholic, i have seen and heard all sorts of crazy shit from the church. It reminds me of a dying empire reaching at anything to legitamize its presence. :headbang:

being raised roman catholic, i have seen and heard all sorts of crazy shit from the church. It reminds me of a dying empire reaching at anything to legitamize its presence. :headbang:


I watched the land of the lost and always suspected the sleestak of being roman catholic!

you do not need to eat meat. So why not turn veggie?

Perhaps I will. I can't predict the future and, as I said, my ability to question this behavior in myself may lead to a exactly that. At the present time, though, I remain unconvinced that all necessary dietary requirements can be met through vegetarianism.

I was recently flipping through the channels and I was bored so I watched a Christian channel (I'm not Christian, I just am always curious to hear thier point of view). He said something about all animals bieng dammed to hell because they couldn't pray. But then why would God make animals? Was the reverand just wrong?

Animals dont have souls. The Bible makes little to no comment about them in terms of the afterlife. Humans are the only creatures to be endowerd with God's image.

Perhaps I will. I can't predict the future and, as I said, my ability to question this behavior in myself may lead to a exactly that. At the present time, though, I remain unconvinced that all necessary dietary requirements can be met through vegetarianism.


I tihnk it depends on your own bodily needs - but as a vegetarian myself (for over 3 years now) I get praise from my doctor on my health (when he runs all the usual tests) and he urges me to keep doing what I am doing. I feel way better than I ever did as a meat eater, and when I catch the usual flu or cold going around (if I catch it which is hardly ever) I barely get sick.

is the holy bible the only book/belief system that says all things are part of the creator? is teh holy bible the only thing that says there is a creator that brought about the existence of all things? no

You were using a fact from the Bible itself (that God created the world) and assuming that to be true, but refused to accept the validity of the Bible's word about wether or not animals were supiror. Furthermore, since this thread is discussing Christian beliefs, the Bible is the only area which we are discussing.

But why don't they have souls? What is the qualitative difference that makes us , as humans, able to play host to a soul but limits animals? Every animal exhibits traits of personality, choice, pleasure and pain. A soul, if such an esoteric concept truly exists, seems to be a summation of these things. If the animals feel them, what precludes them from also having a soul?

In terms of qualitatve diffrence, we are sentient. However in a spiritual sense, the Bible states that humans were made in the image of God. It doesnt say the same for any other animals.

You were using a fact from the Bible itself (that God created the world) and assuming that to be true, but refused to accept the validity of the Bible's word about wether or not animals were supiror. Furthermore, since this thread is discussing Christian beliefs, the Bible is the only area which we are discussing.

no I am not - I am using a general idea from people who believe in a creator (which in case you didnt know was a prevalent idea long before the bible ever hit the scene and is not restricted to any single religion), and asking questions based on this idea.

you might notice that I withdrew my question earlier before that post though because I realized my folly.

If you Christians want to believe that animals don't have souls and your bible backs this up for you then go ahead. I am in no position to argue and think everyone has a right to believe what they want.

I was recently flipping through the channels and I was bored so I watched a Christian channel (I'm not Christian, I just am always curious to hear thier point of view). He said something about all animals bieng dammed to hell because they couldn't pray. But then why would God make animals? Was the reverand just wrong?

I'm not sure how to reply, but either you misinterpreted or the reverend is wrong I think.

My reasoning is that animals don't have souls. Also, they are meant to praise God, or something very similar. Sure they also provide food in many cases but I think they were mostly meant to show that God exists and that they praise God. I might be wrong though, maybe animals do have souls, just one of those things you can't really be sure about.

In terms of qualitatve diffrence, we are sentient.

Is sentience the only requirement for a soul?


However in a spiritual sense, the Bible states that humans were made in the image of God. It doesnt say the same for any other animals.

Yes, but the Bible also doesn't specifically say animals don't have souls, either. It remains rather quiet on the subject. Indeed, the Hebrew word for 'soul', nephesh, is used in the Old Testament in regards to both man and animal. In the New Testament, there is a distinction made between the soul, or life-force of a man or animal, and the spirit, which is what gets to go to heaven. The New Testament says nothing about the spirit of animals either way.

But why don't they have souls? What is the qualitative difference that makes us , as humans, able to play host to a soul but limits animals? Every animal exhibits traits of personality, choice, pleasure and pain. A soul, if such an esoteric concept truly exists, seems to be a summation of these things. If the animals feel them, what precludes them from also having a soul?


This is where you get into the evolution/creation debate. The Christian viewpoint is God created man "in His own image"...different, separate, above animals. In creationism there is inequality, God above human, human above animal. Thus human is not God, animal is not equal to human...and hence the justification for animals not having souls. Secondly, as they don't have souls, they are neither damned not saved...they simply cease to exist upon death.

I'd rather go to Hell then spend one second in Paradise with no dogs.

I tihnk it depends on your own bodily needs - but as a vegetarian myself (for over 3 years now) I get praise from my doctor on my health (when he runs all the usual tests) and he urges me to keep doing what I am doing. I feel way better than I ever did as a meat eater, and when I catch the usual flu or cold going around (if I catch it which is hardly ever) I barely get sick.

Very true. I've tried vegitarianism in the past and it just didn't sit well with me. I tried to do it right, making sure I was eating a balanced diet and taking supplements to replace what I wasn't sure I was getting from food. But even six months later I just felt bad. When I went back to eating meat (although I now eat substantially less red meat), I felt better almost immediately. I'm sure it has to do with specific body chemistry. It works for some people and for others it just doesn't. Unfortunately, I think I fall into that later category.

I'd rather go to Hell then spend one second in Paradise with no dogs.

Agreed. Hell is no dogs.

I love mah lab!

This is where you get into the evolution/creation debate. The Christian viewpoint is God created man "in His own image"...different, separate, above animals. In creationism there is inequality, God above human, human above animal. Thus human is not God, animal is not equal to human...and hence the justification for animals not having souls. Secondly, as they don't have souls, they are neither damned not saved...they simply cease to exist upon death.

Again, though, that's not 100% bibilically accurate. The Old Testament refers to "souls" in both men and animals while the New Testament, when addressing the subject of what exactly goes to heaven, never specifically states one thing about animals either way.

Again, though, that's not 100% bibilically accurate. The Old Testament refers to "souls" in both men and animals while the New Testament, when addressing the subject of what exactly goes to heaven, never specifically states one thing about animals either way.

Can you actually give the verses regarding animal souls?

Can you actually give the verses regarding animal souls?

http://www.soulcare.org/Creation/Animal-Souls.html

http://www.all-creatures.org/murti/tsnhod-08.html

Job 12:10 teaches that in God’s hand "is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind." So guess what ... trees have a soul too.

Oh ... and

"For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity. All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again." -- Ecc. 3:19,20

Well, if the preacher said that animals don't have souls (which it sounds like he did or at least implied it), then they have no souls to be sent to hell. It sounds like the preacher is contradicting himself and you probably shouldn't listen to him. Not only that, but you don't necessarily have to pray to go to heaven. The Bible says if you admit that you are a sinner and accept Jesus's gift of salvation that you will be saved from hell.

Can you actually give the verses regarding animal souls?

The one that springs to mind in the Old Testament is Genesis 7:21-22 - "7:21 And all living things that moved on the earth died, including the birds, domestic animals, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 7:22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died." In comparison with Genesis 2:7 - "2:7 The Lord God formed the man from the soil of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being," this indicates that the same breath of life, or nephesh, is the same for both man and animal.

Job 12:10 teaches that in God’s hand "is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind." So guess what ... trees have a soul too.


This is refering to the fact that everything is created, that everything that ever had life is God created. In other word's meaning that God is the creator of life. It says very little there about the afterlife


"For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity. All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again." -- Ecc. 3:19,20

Thats saying we all die. Nothing else. We will all die, we know that. And if you know anything about that book, you will know it is an examination of life WITHOUT God. Here he is saying that without God, life is pointless as everything dies.

The one that springs to mind in the Old Testament is Genesis 7:21-22 - "7:21 And all living things that moved on the earth died, including the birds, domestic animals, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 7:22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died." In comparison with Genesis 2:7 - "2:7 The Lord God formed the man from the soil of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being," this indicates that the same breath of life, or nephesh, is the same for both man and animal.

Yes, but that doesnt say that the animals were created in the image of God. Genesis does say that about humans, thats the big diffrence. Whether or not the "image" refers to having a soul or not is unclear, but it does mean that Humans are above the other animals in that sense. Life (as in being alive) is the same for both animals and humans, we were both created by God. In terms of what we are to God and how we relate to him, we are very diffrent.

most definately wrong. Humanz make stements based on their interpritation of what ever holy scripture they believe in....too bad we dont have one unifying one

Vandros


Your ideas seem to be very JW. Not to engage in a debate between religions, but where do you get the idea that the soul and Heaven are false concepts?

Uhm.. this is how it works. When you die, your soul goes either to heaven or hell (or if you're Catholic, you believe you most likely go to purgatory before heaven.. to clean the soul.) The difference between Humans and Angels is that angels have no body, just a soul, so they too can go to heaven. (and that is also why humans DONT turn into angels.. two different creatures.)

Animals however, have no soul. They do not continue after they die. The devil (or his minions) may chose to posess an animal (as in the snake in genesis). Demons may also chose to take the form of an animal.

What we know as animals, however, do not have an afterlife. So the answer is no animals do not go to hell.

I was recently flipping through the channels and I was bored so I watched a Christian channel (I'm not Christian, I just am always curious to hear thier point of view). He said something about all animals bieng dammed to hell because they couldn't pray. But then why would God make animals? Was the reverand just wrong?

Here's a tip: When trying to learn something about something, never let TV or the Internet be your first introduction to the topic. Next time, read a book.

I have never understood why humans believe they can decide who or what has a soul and who or what doesn't. I don't believe the kind, loving, and intelligent type of God most believe in, would create creatures simply to stop existing. Humans are animals too, so what gives us the right to say we go to heaven and everything else doesn't. Based on the size of the universe, there are likely thousands, if not millions of planets that contain life, and a certain percentage of those would contain creatures equal in or greater in intelligence as us. Does this mean everything in the universe, other than humans, simply stops existing, or goes to hell? What makes humans so special?

I'm a Christian and I think that pastor is full of shit. I think animals most definitely have souls, as do all living things.

I was recently flipping through the channels and I was bored so I watched a Christian channel (I'm not Christian, I just am always curious to hear thier point of view). He said something about all animals bieng dammed to hell because they couldn't pray. But then why would God make animals? Was the reverand just wrong?
What gay-raper said that?
that makes no sence what-so-ever.He was satanic obvioulusly.

He said something about all animals being dammed to hell because they couldn't pray.

So all we need to do is to get a sign language using chimp to pray and then she will go to heaven? So where did the soul come from? Would it be generated by the act of praying? Is it just praying, or praying to God that creates a soul? Would praying to Sponge Bob Squarepants ensoul a chimp? Would the chimp weigh more after gaining a soul? According to some dead Egyptians, if it was a bad chimp the soul would weigh more than a feather.

What about teaching a monkey to pray? But do we want monkeys in heaven? Nasty little creatures... I think it would be very simple to get a parrot to pray. There are probably quite a few parrots in heaven already that used to be owned by devout people.

There must be a lot of mantises in heaven.

So all we need to do is to get a sign language using chimp to pray and then she will go to heaven? So where did the soul come from? Would it be generated by the act of praying? Is it just praying, or praying to God that creates a soul? Would praying to Sponge Bob Squarepants ensoul a chimp? Would the chimp weigh more after gaining a soul? According to some dead Egyptians, if it was a bad chimp the soul would weigh more than a feather.

What about teaching a monkey to pray? But do we want monkeys in heaven? Nasty little creatures... I think it would be very simple to get a parrot to pray. There are probably quite a few parrots in heaven already that used to be owned by devout people.

There must be a lot of mantises in heaven.LOL!!! aint sarcasm a wonderful tool?

There are entirely too many self-righteous know-it-all religious zealots (pick your own religious "flavor") in this world who are just so sure they know exactly what God's intentions are. They fill up the world with statements of "fact" garnered from their conflicting and conflicted religious texts. They have confidence that their "direct link" to God is not only real, but the only real one.

How surprised they will be when they finally get to this after-life they're so sure they know all about to find out they really didn't know anything at all.

Yes, but that doesnt say that the animals were created in the image of God. Genesis does say that about humans, thats the big diffrence. Whether or not the "image" refers to having a soul or not is unclear, but it does mean that Humans are above the other animals in that sense. Life (as in being alive) is the same for both animals and humans, we were both created by God. In terms of what we are to God and how we relate to him, we are very diffrent.

Yet it does specifically state the same animating force that God gave to humans is also given to animals and this is all the Old Testament has to say on the subject. No where does it explicitly state that being created in "the image of God" in any way, shape or form gives a soul, either in the Old or New Testaments. It may make us different, but it doesn't preclude other creations from possessing a soul.

So it is not 'unclear' if one goes by scripture. It is explicitly stated in the Old Testament. Differences in standing and relation do not indicate a difference in the fundamental possession of soul. Saying that because man is on a theoretically higher position of the divine animal superiority chain, he has a soul while other animals don't is the same as saying a parent has a soul while a child doesn't.

did anyone notice that just before I checked out this thread the viewer number was 666?!

at least the vegetables will be saved

I saw a kids animation about christian vegetables at a friends house - called veggie tales I think

YAY! *hums theme tune* :)

Oh where, oh where, oh where,oh where, oh where is my hairbrush.... Everybody's got a water buffalo.... I L O V E MY L I P S... Oh his cheeseburger...and then the fire depertmant came and they had to get my lips off with a crowbar and I had to spend 6 weeks in lip rehab with this kid named Oscar and we couldn't speak to each other until the 5th week and when we could he only spoke in Polish and I only knew 3 words in Polish except know I know 4 cos Oscar taught me the word for lip: usta..... :D

ahem *cough, whistles and walks off pretending no -one saw her*

Anyway, where will animals go? I've no idea.

is the holy bible the only book/belief system that says all things are part of the creator? is teh holy bible the only thing that says there is a creator that brought about the existence of all things? no

True, but the Holy Bible is the only book that has the actual truth concerning the Creator; no other book has the answers. Feel free to search, by all means.

True, but the Holy Bible is the only book that has the actual truth concerning the Creator; no other book has the answers. Feel free to search, by all means.What conceit.

I was recently flipping through the channels and I was bored so I watched a Christian channel (I'm not Christian, I just am always curious to hear thier point of view). He said something about all animals bieng dammed to hell because they couldn't pray. But then why would God make animals? Was the reverand just wrong?
I admit straight out -- I don't have the time to read all 7 pages of this. It's 5 AM, I've been studying (and posting) all night, I have a final in four and a half hours.....but here's MY thing.

I'm Catholic, I'm devout, I pray a whole lot. But God wouldn't have created the animals simply to automatically damn them for inability to pray. Besides, what place is it for a HUMAN to determine any relationship between animals and humans, or even whether or not an animal has a soul? You don't know, you've never BEEN an animal (unless in a previous life, which automatically kinda debunks the straight up Heaven/Hell thing). Though as a child I thought my parents were full of crap when they told me my hamsters were in Heaven (RIP, Hamlet and Tybalt), I doubt they go to Hell.

Maybe they're the ones crowding Limbo. I mean.....unbaptised dead babies and repentent sinners deserve pets too, don't they?

Oh wait, I forgot, I'm not supposed to recognize Limbo anymore.........bad Vatican. No soup for you.

What conceit.

Please explain.

Please explain.Do you mean you don't know what I meant when I said "What conceit"?

I meant, how can anyone be so conceited as to believe that God (by what ever name you choose to call him/her) would restrict himself/herself to one book and one group of people?

And, please understand that to be a rhetorical question. I don't want an answer. It's always the same answer from all religious fanatics who are sure they have the only answer, and it's still wrong.

Do you mean you don't know what I meant when I said "What conceit"?

I meant, how can anyone be so conceited as to believe that God (by what ever name you choose to call him/her) would restrict himself/herself to one book and one group of people?

And, please understand that to be a rhetorical question. I don't want an answer. It's always the same answer from all religious fanatics who are sure they have the only answer, and it's still wrong.

Of course, that is the point of christianity! Christians will be saved because they follow Jesus, and those who chose to stray from God's plan go to Hell (which is not a place of "hellfire and brimstone", just a place without the presence of God). All I've said about the Bible in the thread is that it is the one book that contains the TRUTH about God and how Christianity is supposed to be. Of course more books are going to be written about him, I'm not reputing that. If you're going to take the typical Atheist line of questioning by trying to present my arguments as futile, don't even bother.

So you're taking part in an argument, yet you don't want me to answer? Okaaay...

Of course, that is the point of christianity! Christians will be saved because they follow Jesus, and those who chose to stray from God's plan go to Hell (which is not a place of "hellfire and brimstone", just a place without the presence of God). All I've said about the Bible in the thread is that it is the one book that contains the TRUTH about God and how Christianity is supposed to be. Of course more books are going to be written about him, I'm not reputing that. If you're going to take the typical Atheist line of questioning by trying to present my arguments as futile, don't even bother.

So you're taking part in an argument, yet you don't want me to answer? Okaaay...Because, as expected, I got the same BS answer that:
a. Decides I'm an atheist (not so - I'm a Christian) because I don't agree with your specific religious point of view.

b. Uses circular reasoning (the bible is the only source of truth about god because it says so itself) to support your point of view.

c. Condemns me to hell (your version of hell, of course) for failure to agree with your religious ideas.

d. Realizes the answer is inadequate, and relies on the tried-and-true "it's a miracle" argument I used to get from the Nuns when I was about 7 years old. (*quoting you "If you're going to take the typical Atheist line of questioning by trying to present my arguments as futile...") Your arguments aren't futile - they're non-existant. Faith is not an argument. It is faith, and I don't fault it for that. But if you believe what you believe because you believe what you believe - that isn't an argument.

e. Fails to honor my request not to answer a rhetorical question.

My point is simple. There is more than one viewpoint of religion in this world. It is not a valid argument to say "mine is right, so your's is wrong." There have been an awful lot of wars and deaths because some group decided that their religious viewpoint was the only valid one, and everybody else better agree or die. Christianity caused more than it's fair share of those wars and deaths. Not Christ - christianity.

It is NOT the rituals, the ceremonies, the specific "text", the building you worship in, the words you pray with, or any of trappings of the various religions that we should be paying any attention to.

It's the basic tenet that runs through ALL of the truly religious works and words that makes the difference.

Treat everyone else decently, in the same manner you want everyone else to treat you.

c. Condemns me to hell (your version of hell, of course) for failure to agree with your religious ideas.


I don't recall saying you would go to hell. Re-read my reply.

b. Uses circular reasoning (the bible is the only source of truth about god because it says so itself) to support your point of view.


Er - That is part of Christian teaching. You need to read up more.

d. Realizes the answer is inadequate, and relies on the tried-and-true "it's a miracle" argument I used to get from the Nuns when I was about 7 years old. (*quoting you "If you're going to take the typical Atheist line of questioning by trying to present my arguments as futile...") Your arguments aren't futile - they're non-existant. Faith is not an argument. It is faith, and I don't fault it for that. But if you believe what you believe because you believe what you believe - that isn't an argument.


I don't recall having that in my post. By the way, futile basically means non-existant.

e. Fails to honor my request not to answer a rhetorical question.
You replied, didn't you? But no, you had to have the last word. Its your own fault if you refuse to recognise someone else's viewpoint. WEhat suprised me most is that you claim to be a Christian, yet you say: "It's always the same answer from all religious fanatics who are sure they have the only answer, and it's still wrong." So you're prejudiced against evangelical Christians? My, my, either you're a repressed Atheist, or you read the scriptures wrong.

My point is simple. There is more than one viewpoint of religion in this world. It is not a valid argument to say "mine is right, so your's is wrong." There have been an awful lot of wars and deaths because some group decided that their religious viewpoint was the only valid one, and everybody else better agree or die. Christianity caused more than it's fair share of those wars and deaths. Not Christ - christianity.

It is NOT the rituals, the ceremonies, the specific "text", the building you worship in, the words you pray with, or any of trappings of the various religions that we should be paying any attention to.

It's the basic tenet that runs through ALL of the truly religious works and words that makes the difference.

Treat everyone else decently, in the same manner you want everyone else to treat you.
Amen. I never said my viewpoint was the only one. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

I saw some "Christian" Television channels.... they were either weird or boring. And I'm a Christian. If your asking me to explain what these people beleive and how the heck they got thier own TV station I have no clue.

Hi There
I'm an anglican with a morbid interest in Catholic theology. According to a papal edict a few centuries ago there are seven animals that are going to heaven. The rest of creation will be burnt away. It says in revelatin and the various parts of the old testament that every part of God's creation appart from human souls will be burnt away in a big fire.
Personally I don't think anaimals go to heaven or hell or limbo. They die and that's that. Free will (plus the second covenant) is what gives us a right to judgement and eternal life.

Define soul.
In what sense do we have souls? And in what sense do animals NOT have souls?

Anyway, personally I agree with the buddhist view that IF animals are capable of suffering, just like IF I'm right to assumed that everyone else are like me, to be capable of suffering, then I guess it would be wrong to cause harm to them (i.e. to cause suffering or hurt), since I personally wouldn't want others to create suffering on me. However if instead, I take preasure in causing others to suffer, I inevitably evolve and extend my own 'capacity' of suffering. In this view, hell is all in the mind. The more you anger, the more easily you are to suffer the metaphorical 'hell' of anger in the future. Since every second, your are in a sense 'reincarnating' into a slightly different self based on your previous selfs (state of minds)..where the 'self' is always changing.

And I'm not buddhist btw. I just thought the philosophy behind it is quite meaningful. Something they call Dependant Arising or something like that..

I was recently flipping through the channels and I was bored so I watched a Christian channel (I'm not Christian, I just am always curious to hear thier point of view). He said something about all animals bieng dammed to hell because they couldn't pray. But then why would God make animals? Was the reverand just wrong?

Hmmm... this guy sounds kinda weird, i don't think animals have souls

at least the vegetables will be saved

I saw a kids animation about christian vegetables at a friends house - called veggie tales I think

i love veggie tales :)

Yet another massive problem I have with Christian man-made DOCTRINE (cause I'm pretty sure Jesus never gave an answer one way or the other)...

How can it be heaven if there are no dogs? (or monkeys, or, grudgingly, cats).

And how does any human know that animals have no souls.

Show me a human one, explain the process, and then explain why you can't show me an animal one.

i love veggie tales :)

Larryboy!

Everything has a soul.

Animals, People, everything on the earth.

But we, the people who have the gift of being children of God are the ones to be judged. There will be animals in heaven.

I am no longer Christian, but I like this explaination.

SOUL, MIND AND SPIRIT

It has been before explained that spirit is universally divided into five categories: the vegetable spirit, the animal spirit, the human spirit, the spirit of faith, and the Holy Spirit.

The vegetable spirit is the power of growth which is brought about in the seed through the influence of other existences.

The animal spirit is the power of all the senses, which is realized from the composition and mingling of elements; when this composition decomposes, the power also perishes and becomes annihilated. It may be likened to this lamp: when the oil, wick, and fire are combined it is lighted, and when this combination is dissolved, that is to say, when the combined parts are separated from one another, the lamp also is extinguished.

The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul; and these two names -- the human spirit and the rational soul -- designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings. But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished, and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets.

But the mind is the power of the human spirit. Spirit is the lamp; mind is the light which shines from the lamp. Spirit is the tree, and the mind is the fruit. Mind is the perfection of the spirit, and is its essential quality, as the sun's rays are the essential necessity of the sun.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 316)

I'd like to say one thing: I cannot say yay or nay to the question of animals going to heaven or hell.

Simple reason, no way of knowing if they have a spirit or not. Also, as mentioned before, Jesus never said one way or another.

Also, something to note, there is 3 parts to humans, the body, the soul and the spirit. The body is what we are (physically), the soul is pretty much life (from my understanding) and the spirit is the immortal part that connects us to God and vice versa. Also, the spirit goes to Heaven to be with God.

At least according to the Christian faith.



By the by, Veggie Tales is a pretty good show, good computer graphics. And nice joke about the veggies going to Heaven :)

I am no longer Christian, but I like this explaination.

SOUL, MIND AND SPIRIT

It has been before explained that spirit is universally divided into five categories: the vegetable spirit, the animal spirit, the human spirit, the spirit of faith, and the Holy Spirit.

The vegetable spirit is the power of growth which is brought about in the seed through the influence of other existences.

The animal spirit is the power of all the senses, which is realized from the composition and mingling of elements; when this composition decomposes, the power also perishes and becomes annihilated. It may be likened to this lamp: when the oil, wick, and fire are combined it is lighted, and when this combination is dissolved, that is to say, when the combined parts are separated from one another, the lamp also is extinguished.

The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul; and these two names -- the human spirit and the rational soul -- designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings. But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished, and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets.

But the mind is the power of the human spirit. Spirit is the lamp; mind is the light which shines from the lamp. Spirit is the tree, and the mind is the fruit. Mind is the perfection of the spirit, and is its essential quality, as the sun's rays are the essential necessity of the sun.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 316)
What he said.