NationStates Jolt Archive

Military recruiters glorify war -- and then sell it to you. Like cigarette pushers, recruiters will say anything to get you hooked.

Job Skills?

* Why do veterans earn less than similar non-veterans? Why are veterans imprisoned more often? Why are 1/3 of all homeless people veterans?

Money for College?

* Why do 65% of recruits who pay the required $1200 into the Montgomery GI Bill never get a dime in return?

Discipline?

* How does getting yelled at and ordered around provide self-discipline?

Equal Opportunity?

* Why do people of color represent 1/3 of all enlisted personnel but only 1/8 of the officers?

ha ha

Just ask the recruiter if he wants to go out and make out sometime. Tell him you have always had a thing for big strong men in uniform. That should scare 'em off, assuming you are a guy that is.

Military recruiters glorify war -- and then sell it to you. Like cigarette pushers, recruiters will say anything to get you hooked.

Job Skills?

* Why do veterans earn less than similar non-veterans? Why are veterans imprisoned more often? Why are 1/3 of all homeless people veterans?

I was an enlisted man in the infantry. I currently make 165,000 dollars per year. Is that bad? Am I homeless?

Money for College?

* Why do 65% of recruits who pay the required $1200 into the Montgomery GI Bill never get a dime in return?

Well, I got my money.

Discipline?

* How does getting yelled at and ordered around provide self-discipline?

It had a positive effect on most of the young men I saw in Basic Training. After that, you rarely yell.

Equal Opportunity?

* Why do people of color represent 1/3 of all enlisted personnel but only 1/8 of the officers?
Perhaps because there aren't enough black college graduates who apply. The Army, unlike most corporations, is constantly studying their affirmative action approach, so as to equalize the numbers to the greatest extent possible - their approach is as progressive as Cat-Tribe probably would have designed.

You'll also see a shortage of blacks in units like the Rangers, Seals, and Special Forces - and the military has identified the swim test as the major barrier. You have to be an unusually strong swimmer - and if you weren't raised swimming, you're probably not going to do well on the swim test. Most urban people have less chance of learning how to swim as a child than people in the suburbs and rural areas.

Anyone who goes into the military and actually listens to a word their recruiter says is not going to have a very good time of things. Recruiters are sales people and everyone knows it.

However, it's a volunteer Army. Recruiters don't come a'knockin'. You have to go to them or you have to volunteer your address/phone number to them when they come to your school or whatever. The Army doesn't canvass neighborhoods.

As for everything else, WL covered it nicely.

Military recruiters glorify war -- and then sell it to you. Like cigarette pushers, recruiters will say anything to get you hooked.

That's what marketing is, encompassing a situation to entice a consumer to purchase your product. The military is as guilty of it as Wall Drug

I was an enlisted man in the infantry. I currently make 165,000 dollars per year. Is that bad? Am I homeless?

You know better.

Mr. Z. wins the lottery. Therefore, it is false that most people lose money in the system. Give me a break.

You know better.

Mr. Z. wins the lottery. Therefore, it is false that most people lose money in the system. Give me a break.

I know quite a few people who were enlisted in the infantry at roughly the same time period that I was.

None of them are unemployed, have ever been in prison, or are making paltry sums of money.

In fact, it was their military background that got them in the door.

You know better.

I was an enlisted man in the infantry. I currently make 165,000 dollars per year. Is that bad? Am I homeless?


Probably not. But you are also only one man. You can't be a representative sample all by yourself.

I know quite a few people who were enlisted in the infantry at roughly the same time period that I was.

None of them are unemployed, have ever been in prison, or are making paltry sums of money.

In fact, it was their military background that got them in the door.

You know better.
That's still an unrepresentative sample. Not only is it too small, but it was defined by a criterion not listed in the original claim. I admit not having seen any of the claimed statistics, but you're hardly attempting to counter them.

That's still an unrepresentative sample. Not only is it too small, but it was defined by a criterion not listed in the original claim. I admit not having seen any of the claimed statistics, but you're hardly attempting to counter them.

Sure. There's no evidence for the claims he made. But, in my personal experience, someone who served honorably as an infantryman is a known quantity in my book.

Fair enough.

Military recruiters glorify war -- and then sell it to you. Like cigarette pushers, recruiters will say anything to get you hooked.

Job Skills?

* Why do veterans earn less than similar non-veterans? Why are veterans imprisoned more often? Why are 1/3 of all homeless people veterans?

Money for College?

* Why do 65% of recruits who pay the required $1200 into the Montgomery GI Bill never get a dime in return?

Discipline?

* How does getting yelled at and ordered around provide self-discipline?

Equal Opportunity?

* Why do people of color represent 1/3 of all enlisted personnel but only 1/8 of the officers?

1. If one is willing to enlist in the army it is probable that one is more agressive than average/ has more destructive tendencies. Since there is no control group of people who were perfectly qualified for and wanted to get into the military but were denied assessment of your statistic as something truly abnormal about military service itself is absurd.

2. Are there other qualifications for getting the money out of the bill? If so, what are they?

3. How does one train a dog to be violent on command but nonviolent without the command?

4.To truly answer whether this one is any statistical abnormality one would have to look at the rate of application as well as their qualifications of the different races to ROTC. One could also look at the candidates that go through OCS.

Military recruiters glorify war -- and then sell it to you. Like cigarette pushers, recruiters will say anything to get you hooked.

Job Skills?

* Why do veterans earn less than similar non-veterans? Why are veterans imprisoned more often? Why are 1/3 of all homeless people veterans?

Money for College?

* Why do 65% of recruits who pay the required $1200 into the Montgomery GI Bill never get a dime in return?

Discipline?

* How does getting yelled at and ordered around provide self-discipline?

Equal Opportunity?

* Why do people of color represent 1/3 of all enlisted personnel but only 1/8 of the officers?


do you have any links or facts to back up your assertions? Any at all?

* Why do people of color represent 1/3 of all enlisted personnel but only 1/8 of the officers?

the following link throws some doubt on your assertion,
http://www.blackcollegeview.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2004/11/01/41866fa805d09

the article is hardly promilitary and really just focuses on the army, but it directly contradicts your quote on enlisted personnel.

a more objective look is available at this link
http://www.blacksense.com/articleview.php?ID=449
and it also explains why a large number of Blacks find and found military service desirable.

Job Skills? * Why do veterans earn less than similar non-veterans? Why are veterans imprisoned more often? Why are 1/3 of all homeless people veterans? ?

first lets look at Vietnam veterans... this quote basically completely refutes your assertion as regards to them, and they are the oldest group of veterans still working (below retirement age mostly)

http://www.blacksense.com/articleview.php?ID=449

this link directly explains what the GI Bill is supposed to do
http://www.va.gov/publ/vbab/vbaed.htm

specific stats on the US homeless as referring to veterans...33% of the male homeless population are veterans, and most of those veterans did not see combat.
http://www.nationalhomeless.org/veterans.html

[B]Equal Opportunity?[B] * Why do people of color represent 1/3 of all enlisted personnel but only 1/8 of the officers?

from a GAO report 2003
Table 1: Female and Racial/Ethnic Minorities at the Service Academies
at Time of Survey (February-March 2003):

Service academy: U.S. Military Academy; Total number of students:
3,957; Total number of women (percent of student body): 616 (16%);
Total number of racial/ethnic minorities (percent of student body): 947
(24%).

Service academy: U.S. Naval Academy; Total number of students: 4,229;
Total number of women (percent of student body): 648 (15%); Total
number of racial/ethnic minorities (percent of student body): 851
(20%).

Service academy: U.S. Air Force Academy; Total number of students:
4,073; Total number of women (percent of student body): 669 (16%);
Total number of racial/ethnic minorities (percent of student body): 776
(19%).

Service academy: Total; Total number of students: 12,259; Total number
of women (percent of student body): 1,933 (16%); Total number of
racial/ethnic minorities (percent of student body): 2,574 (21%).

Source: DOD.

Note: Demographic information is based on a snapshot of each academy.
Therefore, there may be differences between our survey population and
the demographic figures."

link can be found at
http://www.gao.gov/atext/d031001.txt

and those are just the military service academies, while the majority of officers in all 4 services are ROTC grads

an accurate breakdown of the racial / ethnic make up of the US Armed forces can be found here (its too big to post)

http://www.defenselink.mil/prhome/poprep2002/appendixb/b_03.htm

officer corps breakdown can be found here

http://www.defenselink.mil/prhome/poprep2002/chapter4/c4_race.htm

Anyone who goes into the military and actually listens to a word their recruiter says is not going to have a very good time of things. Recruiters are sales people and everyone knows it.

However, it's a volunteer Army. Recruiters don't come a'knockin'. You have to go to them or you have to volunteer your address/phone number to them when they come to your school or whatever. The Army doesn't canvass neighborhoods.

As for everything else, WL covered it nicely.


Ive never given out my info and yet they were calling everyone of the 04' graduates :p

Ive never given out my info and yet they were calling everyone of the 04' graduates :p

It's not like they're drafting you.

do you have any links or facts to back up your assertions? Any at all?I was xpecting WhisperingLegs to ask that...

But lately he is not asking them...I guess he knows me better now...

here are the Links

http://www.objector.org/before-you-enlist.html

http://www.objector.org/before-you-enlist/questions.html

How We Know About Recruiting and Who We Are
How do we find out our information about the military?

The figures we use are from the Department of Defense, Veterans Affairs or from established newspapers, such as the Army Times, and sometimes from academic studies. We also find out about recruiter's broken promises from people who are already in the military and call us on the GI Rights Hotline. We will get 30,000 calls from people in the military who want to get out this year.
Who are we to criticize the military?

We believe that if the military is going to call itself all-volunteer, everyone who joins should be a true volunteer. Tricking people with false promises is not right. We wouldn't buy a car without reading about it in Consumer Reports. We try to be the Consumer Reports for people thinking about joining the military. It's important to understand what you are signing up for because the military is a job you can not quit.

We also believe that recruiters work hard to gloss over the biggest mission of the military: to fight in wars. No one should join the military without deciding that he or she is willing to fight in a war -- and risk killing and dying without questioning why.

http://www.objector.org

Ive never given out my info and yet they were calling everyone of the 04' graduates :p

thats hardly a new thing... they contacted me back in 1978 when I was a HS sophomore and continued up into 1982 when I was a college junior..

the military simply contacts the schools, gets the info, and sends out brochures, they pay attention to kids who are high acheivers especially, by simply reading local newspapers for example (debate tournament results, athletics, things along those lines)...

not interested? simply tell them "no thanks" and eventually they stop, just like other marketers

I was xpecting WhisperingLegs to ask that...

But lately he is not asking them...I guess he knows me better now...

here are the Links

http://www.objector.org/before-you-enlist.html

http://www.objector.org/before-you-enlist/questions.html

chuckle... but hardly unbiased ones.... the links I gave don't seem to agree with the link you gave

chuckle... but hardly unbiased ones.... the links I gave don't seem to agree with the link you gave

You missed my edit...but here anyways...

__________________________________________
The figures we use are from the Department of Defense, Veterans Affairs or from established newspapers, such as the Army Times, and sometimes from academic studies.
We also find out about recruiter's broken promises from people who are already in the military and call us on the GI Rights Hotline. We will get 30,000 calls from people in the military who want to get out this year.
Who are we to criticize the military?

1515 Cherry Street
Philadelphia, PA 19102
215-563-8787
Fax 215-567-2096

http://www.objector.org

I was xpecting WhisperingLegs to ask that...

But lately he is not asking them...I guess he knows me better now...



Ocean, I don't bother reading your links because I don't find them credible.

I've had first hand experience with being recruited. No one told me, "hey, you'll never get killed in the Army" or "you'll never go to war".

Ocean, if you're alive, and have a pulse, you know that the "military" goes to "war". It's their raison d'etre.

I've never met anyone in the Army so blindingly stupid that they had no idea what the military would be doing - or what their job would be in time of war.

You missed my edit...but here anyways... [/url]

I saw your edit, and my links are from some of the same sources your link is using as well...

the body of those reports does indicate some problems with officer recruitment, but also explains why and what steps are being taken to remedy that.

as far as income after service goes... later on I will do some research on the Department of Labor website (I use it for my job routinely).... my experience as an assessment counselor for a Workforce Investment Act training and job placement agency is however that most veterans who leave the service with civilian related skills have little difficulty in finding work, while those who come from the combat arms generally need training just like entry level high school grads....

the general trend is that college grads earn 20% or more higher wages than non college grads, veterans or not (I don't have the link but that is pretty well documented).

In addition to Federal benefits, most States also offer substantial assistance programs as well. For example, the State of Texas offers something called the Hazelwood Act, which provides for free tuitition, fees and books at Texas state supported colleges and tech schools in addition to Federal benefits.

If a veteran isn't getting those services, they aren't looking in the right place.

Ocean, if you're alive, and have a pulse, you know that the "military" goes to "war". It's their raison d'etre.

I've never met anyone in the Army so blindingly stupid that they had no idea what the military would be doing - or what their job would be in time of war.
In a way I agree with you...

I guess its like natural selection...the ones that are ****** enough or ****** enough...they deserve to be in Iraq.

Since we are talking about Recruiters...
Ive heard some high schools have banned Recruiters.

do you believe there shoulb be any limits to age?
are they too young to allow the recruiters to talk to them?
should it be the child...or the Parent call?

when are they old enough or mature enough to be exposed to the Recruiters?

In a way I agree with you...

I guess its like natural selection...the ones that are stupid enough or "patriot" enough...they deserve to be in Iraq.

That's slightly condescending...you're assuming that we don't want to go. I can speak for a large number of my classmates and AROTC peers in stating that we would willingly go to Iraq. We're not stupid...we know what we're getting into, we didn't join the Army thinking it was going to be some bed of roses that we'd get our college paid for by walking around in boots and a uniform and then have a normal life.

edit: In fact, one of the questions I had to answer to receive my scholarship concerned my reaction to being comissioned and sent to Iraq.

Since we are talking about Recruiters...
Ive heard some high schools have banned Recruiters.

do you believe there shoulb be any limits to age?
are they too young to allow the recruiters to talk to them?
should it be the child...or the Parent call?

when are they old enough or mature enough to be exposed to the Recruiters?

I don't see the harm in having recruiters talk to them. It's not as though they are forced to enlist.

I also don't believe that anyone is really fooled into enlisting.

I think the real reason behind your posts are that the insurgents are so lame they can't cause the casualties they caused in Vietnam. They can't even manage 1/8th the rate - so it looks like the only way to reduce the number of Americans in the military is to say "whoa, it's fucking dangerous and they'll lie and say it isn't!".

If I were President, I'd send a car straight to where you're sitting and have you taken to Ft. Benning for basic training.

...you're assuming that we don't want to go(to Iraq).
I can speak for a large number of...
hmm...
I take it back then.
I edited the "they signed...they must be stupid" comment.

It was a bad comment anyways.

If I were President, I'd send a car straight to where you're sitting and have you taken to Ft. Benning for basic training.You are not the only one...take a number. ;)

Since we are talking about Recruiters...
Ive heard some high schools have banned Recruiters.

do you believe there shoulb be any limits to age?
are they too young to allow the recruiters to talk to them?
should it be the child...or the Parent call?

when are they old enough or mature enough to be exposed to the Recruiters?

I had a recruiter come talk to me the fall of my junior in high school. I was still 16 because my birthday was in December. All he did was call me and ask if I was interested, if I was that'd he'd come meet me in person to talk to me about it, but insisted that one or both of my parents be there since I was still a minor.

I don't see anything wrong with that...

I had a recruiter come talk to me the fall of my junior in high school. I was still 16 because my birthday was in December. All he did was call me and ask if I was interested, if I was that'd he'd come meet me in person to talk to me about it, but insisted that one or both of my parents be there since I was still a minor.

I don't see anything wrong with that...Interesting...

what can you tell us about the Recruiter personality?

Military recruiters glorify war -- and then sell it to you. Like cigarette pushers, recruiters will say anything to get you hooked.

Job Skills?

* Why do veterans earn less than similar non-veterans? Why are veterans imprisoned more often? Why are 1/3 of all homeless people veterans?

From someone who did two years of work for the Department of Veteran's Affairs, you'll find that those numbers become much less than the national average when you eliminate Viet Nam era veterans. Why would you do this? They weren't volunteers. They were undertrained due to an urgency. They went through a particularly difficult period of American history where veteran's were severely mistreated. They account for a disproportionate amount of homeless and imprisoned veterans.

In my relatively small unit (it has since disbanded) we had several multimillionaires. We still get together and none of us are making less than fifty grand a year. Most of us used our veteran's benefits toward schooling (in IL, tuition is free as well for veterans).

Comparing the military recruiters to cigarette pushers is an amazing statement of the bias of your particular outlook on the military. My guess is that you chose to only use statistics that support your outlook and ignore the statistics that support the claims of the recruiters. For example, the number of presidents with military experience, the disproportionate number of CEO's with military experience, the disproportionate number of politicians with military experience.

Money for College?

* Why do 65% of recruits who pay the required $1200 into the Montgomery GI Bill never get a dime in return?

It's available. If people choose to not use it, does that have anything to do with the fact that the military offers it and paying into it is voluntary?

Discipline?

* How does getting yelled at and ordered around provide self-discipline?

You have a severe misunderstanding of the way the military really is. It's amazing how much discipline one learns when one is put into a situation that makes them really feel the effects their actions have on others.

Equal Opportunity?

* Why do people of color represent 1/3 of all enlisted personnel but only 1/8 of the officers?

Why do poor people represent so much more of the enlisted personnel than the officers? I suspect you know the answer to this. Rich people tend to have more opportunity for education. Is this a sign of a problem in the military or in our society? However the children of enlisted personnel have more access to education than many poor people. The military can only do so much to rectify societal inequality.

Sure. There's no evidence for the claims he made. There is plenty of evidence. Every credable survey of the homeless population confirms this.

Yes, there are.

There's already been some posting from reliable sources that contradicts his numbers.

Also, as organizations go, the US military is way out there in front for equal opportunity and affirmative action.

From someone who did two years of work for the Department of Veteran's Affairs, you'll find that those numbers become much less than the national average when you eliminate Viet Nam era veterans. Why would you do this? .

the links I provided earlier support your statements, and even show that Viet Nam veterans as a whole did a lot better than assumptions made

I was xpecting WhisperingLegs to ask that...

But lately he is not asking them...I guess he knows me better now...

here are the Links

http://www.objector.org/before-you-enlist.html

http://www.objector.org/before-you-enlist/questions.html

How We Know About Recruiting and Who We Are
How do we find out our information about the military?

The figures we use are from the Department of Defense, Veterans Affairs or from established newspapers, such as the Army Times, and sometimes from academic studies. We also find out about recruiter's broken promises from people who are already in the military and call us on the GI Rights Hotline. We will get 30,000 calls from people in the military who want to get out this year.
Who are we to criticize the military?

We believe that if the military is going to call itself all-volunteer, everyone who joins should be a true volunteer. Tricking people with false promises is not right. We wouldn't buy a car without reading about it in Consumer Reports. We try to be the Consumer Reports for people thinking about joining the military. It's important to understand what you are signing up for because the military is a job you can not quit.

We also believe that recruiters work hard to gloss over the biggest mission of the military: to fight in wars. No one should join the military without deciding that he or she is willing to fight in a war -- and risk killing and dying without questioning why.

http://www.objector.org

Nice, a great unbiased source. Certainly convinces me. Too bad none of what they say plays with my experience as a veteran.

Ive never given out my info and yet they were calling everyone of the 04' graduates :p

This is why: http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/psat/reg/sss.html

(Or at least I think it is).

Since the ROTC is a scholarship program, if you said "yes" to the Student Search Service on your PSAT registration, they will most likely send you packets and stuff to try to recruit you.

Military recruiters glorify war -- and then sell it to you. Like cigarette pushers, recruiters will say anything to get you hooked.

Job Skills?

* Why do veterans earn less than similar non-veterans? Why are veterans imprisoned more often? Why are 1/3 of all homeless people veterans?


Source Please?

Money for College?

* Why do 65% of recruits who pay the required $1200 into the Montgomery GI Bill never get a dime in return?

I got mine-of course, it helps if you start school before your ten-year (post ETS) limit is expired, and it helps to make sure you actually do your term of service.


Discipline?

* How does getting yelled at and ordered around provide self-discipline?

Most recruits don't have any self-discipline to begin with. In fact, most CIVILIANS don't have any self-discipline.
Self-Discipline is a learned skill, and most kids today don't have the background.


Equal Opportunity?

* Why do people of color represent 1/3 of all enlisted personnel but only 1/8 of the officers?

What is the proportion of people-of-colour who graduate College with at least a Bachelor's degree? What is their proportion in relation to the population (Hint: less than 1/8th of the U.S. population is of african descent.) Non-whites taken together represent a significant minority of NCO personnel (that's Sgt. and above, you know, the guys that actually Lead the troops.) In my own experience in a highly technical MOS, we had a majority of Minorities in NCO and Senior NCO positions. Within the military culture, a Platoon Sgt. or First Sgt may be outranked by a Lt., but the senior NCO holds more respect from both the men, and the senior officers.
Many E-7 and above could mustang, (green-to-gold programme) but choose not to. First Sgt. Solomon had a master's degree earned during his time in service. He chose to remain a senior NCO, to the point of turning down several comission offers.

The military is a different culture, it's far, far, different from what you're used to, the reactions are different, the mores are different, the morality is different. The Priorities of people who would willingly stand between civilian life and the barbarians are not the priorities of your MBA, tie-wearing, day-trading, wine-sipping, pot-smoking, SUV driving, tree-hugging, Hypocritical, Condescending, American Leftists.

The Military has such a high minority turnout, because it's one of the most effective ways to get out of Urban Poverty and its culture of street crime, welfare-dependency, and drugs.
It has a high percentage of poor whites, because it's also a route out of Rural poverty, and a chance to get somewhere better, with your dignity intact.

People who rely on Mommy and Daddy to carry them until they get a soft desk-job in "Civil Service" after college are simply unable to comprehend this.

I guess that's why I've seen a preference for hiring veterans.

I even heard a story on NPR, where they were surprised that Maytag was ONLY hiring veterans - because they make more reliable employees.

Go figure, OceanDrive. You may not know why, but I do.

There is plenty of evidence. Every credable survey of the homeless population confirms this.

A lot of Homeless Vets are holdovers fromt he Vietnam Era, when the goddamned laughing-boy leftists drove them practically out of society.

the links I provided earlier support your statements, and even show that Viet Nam veterans as a whole did a lot better than assumptions made

Their documentation includes the time immediately post-Viet Nam in the statistics because of the effect Viet Nam (and the anti-military response to it) had on recruiting. Once that era is not considered, one finds that veterans as a whole are quite successful.

From someone who did two years of work for the Department of Veteran's Affairs, you'll find that those numbers become much less than the national average when you eliminate Viet Nam era veterans.
Vietnam Veterans deserve equal support from society...not less!!!

If 1/3 are homeless...Your departemant is not doing a very good Job!!

...either that or maybe Chemical gases we used in Vietnam do screw the brain...beyond repair...

Source Please?
The source was given...read the the previous posts...or come back with your babysitter.

Vietnam Veterans deserve equal support from society...not less!!!

If 1/3 are homeless...Your departemant is not doing a very goo Job of helping them.

...either that or the Chemical gases we used in Vietnam do screw the brain...beyond repair...

You can start by blaming the protesters who went out of their way to hate them when they came home.

I don't know about that. I'm in the Navy, and I've seen many people be contacted by corporations shortly before their enlistment is up.

Vietnam Veterans deserve equal support from society...not less!!!

If 1/3 are homeless...Your departemant is not doing a very goo Job of helping them.

...either that or the Chemical gases we used in Vietnam do screw the brain...beyond repair...

the actual quote was that 33% of the male homeless population were veterans... not that 33% of the Vietnam Veteram population was homeless

perhaps the data should read more closely?

Interesting...

what can you tell us about the Recruiter personality?

What do you mean?

He was a nice guy, friendly, respectful, decent, honorable...everything I'd expect from a senior NCO. Recruiters aren't all animals like you're trying to portray them to be. I'm not saying there aren't bad apples...I ran into one of those too...but there are bad apples everywhere. Just because one finds a couple bad apples does not mean you charactarize the whole barrel as bad or rotten.

The source was given...read the the previous posts...or come back with your babysitter.

thats pretty close to flaming by the way, your statement above... with the number of posts you have credited to you one would expect you to know better...

try debating, not name calling

the actual quote was that 33% of the male homeless population were veterans... not that 33% of the Vietnam Veteram population was homeless

perhaps the data should read more closely?

The question I have is: how did the study know that people were Vietnam Veterans?

I've met many people down at the Wall who claim to be veterans - but when I check, I find out they've never been in the military - ever.

They sit downtown in fatigues, and give sob stories about how they were homeless and strung out on drugs - and I find out they were never soldiers.

So, did your study verify the service records of each and every individual in this survey? You do know how to verify this, right?

You can start by blaming the...I believe I already Blamed Jocabia (I was not even subtle...it was pretty direct) and your Veterans Dept..

BTW Jocaiba... what 2 years did you serve in that Veterans Dept. ???
was it after the War...1972 73?

I believe I already Blamed Jocabia (I was not even subtle...it was pretty direct) and your Veterans Dept..

BTW Jocaiba... what 2 years did you serve in that Veterans Dept. ???
was it after the War...1972 73?

Maybe you need to check your sources. I have completely different information.

http://www.vhfcn.org/stat.html

Vietnam Veterans deserve equal support from society...not less!!!

If 1/3 are homeless...Your departemant is not doing a very goo Job of helping them.

...either that or the Chemical gases we used in Vietnam do screw the brain...beyond repair...

Veterans deserve more support from society not equal. The VA tries to do so and reorganizing the funds used by hospitals so that more services could be provided to veterans and more hospitals could stay open was part of my job. Our project was shut down by a couple of politicians that decided their reelection was more important than veteran's benefits. Unfortunately, much of the problems of the VA is one of politics. With each administration there is a huge upheaval in the personnel governing the VA. While they continue to make progress towards better meeting the needs of veterans it is slowed severely by the political process (like EVERY other government program). Blame the political process and not the services.

Not my department. I was a contractor. And again, you show your ignorance. In other eras the standards were very high regarding rejecting those with a propensity for mental illness. During that period, people were recruited that were known to be mentally ill. Being mentally ill does not mean that you can be incarcerated so the VA cannot force these veterans to get help. In my trips to veteran's hospitals I found many ill veterans that would not cooperate with medical personnel. There is nothing the doctors can do in this situation. It is frequently found that veterans who are homeless actually reject the financial and medical help offered by the Dept of VA.

Meanwhile, being a veteran allows you to purchase a home with no money down, makes it easier to buy a car, nearly guarantees you entrance to public institution of higher learning, gets you special consideration for many scholarships, gets you special consideration at many corporations, have free medical services, have free funeral services, two states completely waive tuition at all state colleges, etc. Many of these benefits have been fought for or are directly provided by the Dept of VA.

thats pretty close to flaming by the way, your statement above... with the number of posts you have credited to you one would expect you to know better...

try debating, not name callingI did not call him anything...

..everyone is welcomed to the debate...and the least we all must do is read the previous posts...others wise the same questions would be asked again and again...and the debate just goes in circles...

dont be lazy...first you read...then you write.
first you think...then you talk...its pretty basic.

The question I have is: how did the study know that people were Vietnam Veterans?

I've met many people down at the Wall who claim to be veterans - but when I check, I find out they've never been in the military - ever.

They sit downtown in fatigues, and give sob stories about how they were homeless and strung out on drugs - and I find out they were never soldiers.

So, did your study verify the service records of each and every individual in this survey? You do know how to verify this, right?

the study that was linked to uses Department of Labor stats.... generally, State Employment agencies acrue those stats and a veteran is only someone who can prove through a DD214 service in the US Armed Forces..

Homeless Veterans have the option of a number of services available to them... the community I live in has an average unemployment rate of 10% (which can get up to 15% and does frequently).... the local County Veterans Affairs Agency, the State Employment Development Department, and the Federally funded Workforce Investment Act agency (which I work for) routinely hold twice yearly programs known as Project Standdown which provide direct and pretty comprehensive services to the underemployed and homeless veteran.

However... many of those who would benefit have serious dependency disorders (alchohol, drug use) and some also have mental health issues. This makes it tough and they require a lot of help to get back on track.

The Vietnam and immediate post Vietnam era veteran as a general rule did not have to meet the rather strict educational requirements the Veterans of the 1980s to present did (HS diplomas and GEDs weren't necessarily required a lot of the time). However, the stats show that Veterans overall do as well or better than non Veterans in the work place and educationally. Including the Vietnam era veterans.

Gimme a break with this anti-military, pacifist bullshit. I leave for basic training next month (MCRD-PI), that's Parris Island for all you folks who don't know. The recruiter didn't have to sell me shit; I walked in, said I wanted to be a Marine, signed my papers, and walked out. Sure, most recruiters are scumbags, but its people like you that make me wonder WHY I am willing to put my life on the line for your freedom, so you can spew out bullshit like that.

The up yours smiley is overkill.

I believe I already Blamed Jocabia (I was not even subtle...it was pretty direct) and your Veterans Dept..

BTW Jocaiba... what 2 years did you serve in that Veterans Dept. ???
was it after the War...1972 73?

Um, no, it was before which is how I could see studies about post-Viet Nam. I was born in 1974. I was a contractor to the VA in 2003-4. I left as a result of the election that was coming up and political climate that made benefits take a backseat to politics.

And I think what WL was trying to say is that if you care to place blame that is not founded in ignorance you could start by assessing the effect that spitting in the face of veterans had on the psyche of those veterans and the effect it had on recruiting. Or you can just ignorantly say that the military broke their heads. Whichever you like is fine by me.

ha ha

Just ask the recruiter if he wants to go out and make out sometime. Tell him you have always had a thing for big strong men in uniform. That should scare 'em off, assuming you are a guy that is.LOL... I talked to a guy who was pestered constantly about joining the military even though he told them repeatedly he had no interest. Finally, he said the two magic words that got them to stop: "I'm gay."

He wasn't. :p

.... During that period, people were recruited that were known to be mentally ill. Being mentally ill does not mean that you can be incarcerated so the VA cannot force these veterans to get help.
...
It is frequently found that veterans who are homeless actually reject the financial and medical help offered by the Dept of VA..
wait a minute...you mean that if they are crazy...
it is not because ot the War?..
it is not because of the Chem Weapons?...

You saying: Its because they were already crazy when they were recruited.???

wait a minute...you mean that if they are crazy...its not the fault of the Gases...Its because they were already crazy when they were recruited.???
:confused: :confused: :confused:

no, you're just trolling again.

wait a minute...you mean that if they are crazy...its not the fault of the Gases...Its because they were already crazy when they were recruited.???
:confused: :confused: :confused:

It means that statistics from that time are not representive of the general military as standards were relaxed to refill the depleted population. Meanwhile, your assertion about the gases do not have anything to do with the discussion. Unless you show me an unbiased source that some kind of gases caused mental illness, then I'm going to just consider it silliness. While in the military, guess what I taught... NBC (Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Warfare), so I might have a little more knowledge on the subject than you. I know of no gas that would cause anyone to be mentally ill to the point of homelessness. If I'm wrong, correct me. I'll be here, waiting.

Did anyone else notice that the last question from his source was too biased for even OceanDrive to list? Why is that OD? Worried that people would read that last question, realize that you're questions are a silly attempt to spread ignorance under the guise of being informative and leave the thread?

I've seen the recruiters at my school a couple of times. I'm only 15, so they don't try to talk to me, but they are there a little bit. The thing is, my school is very rich. People who drive $50,000 cars their rich daddies bought for them and will use the money to get into some mediocre but well known college and blow their money on pot.
MBA, tie-wearing, day-trading, wine-sipping, pot-smoking, SUV driving, tree-hugging, Hypocritical, Condescending, American Leftists.
Sadly, a lot of people like that.
But, I consider myself a liberal and only a small percentage of people are like that. Are all conservatives trailer living, incest having, alcoholic, bible-thumping, fundamentalist, rednecked, American rightists? Of course not, so think before you stereotype.

However, for county math league we went to Ramapo High school once. It's a poor area where the school system receives almost no funding (it's a complicated issue, and a few parties are to blame). The recruiters where everywhere. Not only did we pass a dozen of them, but there were posters lining every wall. For many people there, even the very smart ones, it's the only way out. Kind of sad.

.... During that period, people were recruited that were known to be mentally ill. Being mentally ill does not mean that you can be incarcerated so the VA cannot force these veterans to get help.
...
It is frequently found that veterans who are homeless actually reject the financial and medical help offered by the Dept of VA..

wait a minute...you mean that if they are crazy...
it is not because ot the War?..
it is not because of the Chem Weapons?...

You saying: Its because they were already crazy when they were recruited.???

... I know of no gas that would cause anyone to be mentally ill to the point of homelessness. If I'm wrong, correct me. I'll be here, waiting.well...something in the War made them Crazy(mentally Ill)

Your statement that "they were already Crazy before we recruited them" is unacceptable.

after all the Veterans Dept excuses (you said you worked in that VA Dept for 2 years) ...after all that spinning...having 1/3 of Veterans homeless is still a shame to the VA Dept.

Why is that OD? Worried that .....You are not going to live long enough to see me worried... :cool:

Did anyone else notice that the last question was too biased for even OceanDrive to list? Why is that OD? ...What question is that...My question? your question?

I was AFK...going AFK again for 30 min...

You are not going to live long enough to see worried... :cool:

What question is that...My question? your question?

I was AFK...going AFK again for 30 min...

The last question in the list that you cut and pasted (first post). You cut it out. I'm curious why. You know, the one about adventure.

wait a minute...you mean that if they are crazy...
it is not because ot the War?..
it is not because of the Chem Weapons?...

You saying: Its because they were already crazy when they were recruited.???

well...something in the War made them Crazy(mentally Ill)

Your statement that "they were already Crazy before we recruited them" is unacceptable.

after all the Veterans Dept excuses (you said you worked in that VA Dept for 2 years) ...after all that spinning...having 1/3 of Veterans homeless is still a shame to the VA Dept.

Interesting, it wasn't ignorant enough the first time so you had to repeat it. 1/3 of all veterans are NOT homeless. You made that up. No, many of the mentally ill people of that era never saw combat as was pointed out several times already. It was a result of relaxed recruiting standards and the shoddy treatment of veterans of that era. It has NOTHING to do with the VA. The VA attempts to address those veterans but many of them refuse treatment. In the town I currently live in, there is an entire group of veterans that refuse any benefits whatsoever in protest of the way the American people treated Viet Nam Era veterans. They are all homeless. One of them is a degreed medical doctor. You may call it spinning if you show that the majority or even a large minority of homeless veterans saw combat. I'm patient. Post an unbiased source.

EDIT: It appears to me there is only one person here who is spinning. Posting biased sources, making up statistics, skewing statistics, personal attacks ("bring your babysitter"). If you were sure what you were saying was accurate you would be comfortable using real sites, statistics and valid evaluations of those sites and statistics. And you would refrain from personal attacks.

Military recruiters glorify war -- and then sell it to you. Like cigarette pushers, recruiters will say anything to get you hooked.

Job Skills?

* Why do veterans earn less than similar non-veterans? Why are veterans imprisoned more often? Why are 1/3 of all homeless people veterans?

Money for College?

* Why do 65% of recruits who pay the required $1200 into the Montgomery GI Bill never get a dime in return?

Discipline?

* How does getting yelled at and ordered around provide self-discipline?

Equal Opportunity?

* Why do people of color represent 1/3 of all enlisted personnel but only 1/8 of the officers?


Great questions, to be sure. But it all comes down to the fact that it is still a volunteer army out there. Some people, like me, can read your questions and see the truth in them. Others just have to learn the hard way. I feel only limited pity for soldiers, because, after all, they chose to be one.

Until such time as there is another draft in this country, my attitude towards soldiers will continue to be, "Well, you signed up for it didn't you? It's no one's fault but your own if you failed to do the research beforehand."

Great questions, to be sure. But it all comes down to the fact that it is still a volunteer army out there. Some people, like me, can read your questions and see the truth in them. Others just have to learn the hard way. I feel only limited pity for soldiers, because, after all, they chose to be one.

Until such time as there is another draft in this country, my attitude towards soldiers will continue to be, "Well, you signed up for it didn't you? It's no one's fault but your own if you failed to do the research beforehand."

There isn't any truth in his questions. Almost every statistic listed in the questions has been debunked.

The current practices of military recruiting are an outright despicable, and the administration in charge of running them, and allowing them, should face criminal charges. If the U.S. military were a private organization, they'd face civil and criminal charges of:

Fraud: Lying to recruits.
Extortion: Cutting benefits, for inactive duty and retirees.
Hostile work environment: In America, you can sue for this.
Homosexual discrimination: Obvious.
Racial discrimination: Once again, obvious.
Sexual discrimination: Very few top military position are taken by women, women until recently couldn't be in many "dangerous" fields, and women still can't enter submarines.
Religious discrimination: Chaplains are largely Christian. Very few top positions are held by non-Christians.
Murder: Not all deaths in war are murder, but what we've seen of Iraq, there's been plenty of murder. Bombing the World Trade Center to get to us is evil, but flattening a restaurant full of civilians, because of a rumor that Hussein's in it is okay? No. Both are evil.
Rape: Once again, Iraq. Not just Abu-Graib, either.
It's for this reason that I fully agree, the Bush administration should be put on trial for war crimes. But more than that, military recruiting must be dramatically reformed.

I've shared several of my experiences, in this thread:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=418100

Interesting, it wasn't ignorant enough the first time so you had to repeat it. 1/3 of all veterans are NOT homeless.
You read it wrong, Jocabia. Roughly 1\3 of homeless people are veterans, not the other way around.

But no, you're right. That's incorrect. 1\3 of homeless people are not veterans.

40% OF ALL HOMELESS PEOPLE ARE VETERANS

From the Wiki on homelessness.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeless
"The U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs estimates that more than 299,321 veterans are homeless on any given night. . . United States: 750,000 [homeless people]."

The current practices of military recruiting are an outright despicable, and the administration in charge of running them, and allowing them, should face criminal charges. If the U.S. military were a private organization, they'd face civil and criminal charges of:

Fraud: Lying to recruits.
Extortion: Cutting benefits, for inactive duty and retirees.
Hostile work environment: In America, you can sue for this.
Homosexual discrimination: Obvious.
Racial discrimination: Once again, obvious.
Sexual discrimination: Very few top military position are taken by women, women until recently couldn't be in many "dangerous" fields, and women still can't enter submarines.
Religious discrimination: Chaplains are largely Christian. Very few top positions are held by non-Christians.
Murder: Not all deaths in war are murder, but what we've seen of Iraq, there's been plenty of murder. Bombing the World Trade Center to get to us is evil, but flattening a restaurant full of civilians, because of a rumor that Hussein's in it is okay? No. Both are evil.
Rape: Once again, Iraq. Not just Abu-Graib, either.
It's for this reason that I fully agree, the Bush administration should be put on trial for war crimes. But more than that, military recruiting must be dramatically reformed.

I've shared several of my experiences, in this thread:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=418100

Sources?

And your experiences show two things -
1. If you're rude to people they are prone to be rude right back
2. Like all beauracracies you are going to encounter a couple of people who don't deserve the position they hold.

If you actually want to have a reasonable discussion about this, I suggest you do a little more research and perhaps not use so much propaganda to support your position.

You will find a large number of veterans who did not have the trouble you had with your recruiter. I got exactly what I was promised out of the military, as did my brother, my father, my grandfathers on both sides, etc. I was not offered anything they couldn't provide and at the initial time of recruiting I was with three friends in the office. All of them ended up enlisting over the next several years and are very happy with their service despite the fact that all of them served in combat during the Clinton Administration.

We arent talking about your specific case or your friend specific cases whispering, we are talking about averages and statistical significance.

You really should know better...

You read it wrong, Jocabia. Roughly 1\3 of homeless people are veterans, not the other way around.

But no, you're right. That's incorrect. 1\3 of homeless people are not veterans.

40% OF ALL HOMELESS PEOPLE ARE VETERANS

From the Wiki on homelessness.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeless
"The U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs estimates that more than 299,321 veterans are homeless on any given night. . . United States: 750,000 [homeless people]."

I quoted him. He clearly said what I replied to. He said 'having 1/3 of Veterans homeless' which is simply not true. Now, again, it is accepted that approximately 1/3 of homeless people are veterans. However, let's go back to your statements.

http://www1.va.gov/homeless/page.cfm?pg=1

"About one-third of the adult homeless population have served their country in the Armed Services. On any given day, as many as 200,000 veterans (male and female) are living on the streets or in shelters, and perhaps twice as many experience homelessness at some point during the course of a year."

If you're curious that's a VA site. Also, if you're curious there are far more than 600,000 veterans in the US. Thus, your statement was wrong and so was his. Have a nice day.

wait a minute...you mean that if they are crazy...
it is not because ot the War?..
it is not because of the Chem Weapons?...

You saying: Its because they were already crazy when they were recruited.???

...said the man who never served in the military.

*snicker*

The current practices of military recruiting are an outright despicable, and the administration in charge of running them, and allowing them, should face criminal charges. If the U.S. military were a private organization, they'd face civil and criminal charges of:

Fraud: Lying to recruits.
Extortion: Cutting benefits, for inactive duty and retirees.
Hostile work environment: In America, you can sue for this.
Homosexual discrimination: Obvious.
Racial discrimination: Once again, obvious.
Sexual discrimination: Very few top military position are taken by women, women until recently couldn't be in many "dangerous" fields, and women still can't enter submarines.
Religious discrimination: Chaplains are largely Christian. Very few top positions are held by non-Christians.
Murder: Not all deaths in war are murder, but what we've seen of Iraq, there's been plenty of murder. Bombing the World Trade Center to get to us is evil, but flattening a restaurant full of civilians, because of a rumor that Hussein's in it is okay? No. Both are evil.
Rape: Once again, Iraq. Not just Abu-Graib, either.
It's for this reason that I fully agree, the Bush administration should be put on trial for war crimes. But more than that, military recruiting must be dramatically reformed.

I've shared several of my experiences, in this thread:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=418100


Ok, lets take a look at your points:
1. Lying..... YOU have the responsibility to read your recruitment contract, which has the body of law, and is enforceable, and if the military does not live up to your contract they are liable .... you sign it, or not, but if you don't sign, you arent enlisted.
2. this has nothing to do with enlistment or recruitment.... its debatability is something else entirely
3. exactly how is it hostile? specifics? and what does that have to do with recruiting
4. yes its obvious, so is 'dont ask, don't tell', but the Military is under a different legal standard because of its unique nature
5. Congress determines that, not the military, Congress also funds how many positions are available at each level of rank, while promotion is based on service records. A commander of an infantry division or submarine has to be able to have the relevant experience.
6. Highly argueable, as a percentage, the overwhelming number of Americans in the military are Christian, hence the overwhelming number of chaplains are going to reflect that the needs of the troops.
7 and 8. Murder and Rape are crimes under Military Law, and conviction in time of war can lead to the death penalty. All such claims are investigated. But that has nothing to do with recruitment now does it?

To Jocaiba:

This is my original Post:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=8843972#post8843972
Military recruiters glorify war -- and then sell it to you. Like cigarette pushers, recruiters will say anything to get you hooked.

Job Skills?

* Why do veterans earn less than similar non-veterans? Why are veterans imprisoned more often? Why are 1/3 of all homeless people veterans?

Money for College?

* Why do 65% of recruits who pay the required $1200 into the Montgomery GI Bill never get a dime in return?

Discipline?

* How does getting yelled at and ordered around provide self-discipline?

Equal Opportunity?

* Why do people of color represent 1/3 of all enlisted personnel but only 1/8 of the officers?

at one point at the 4th or 5th page...I wrote it backwards...and jocaiba is trying to pick on that...

but it does not change the disgraceful situation of the Veterans...

But still ...1/3 of all homeless people are veterans(or worse 40%) ...is still a Shame for the VA dept...

so...what years did you work at the VA?

marker - laggy now, can't read all, are sources mentioned earlier or are these stats just made up?

What do you mean?

He was a nice guy, friendly, respectful, decent, honorable...I expected that too.

and I expect the same from the Real State agent...and the Car salesman...

Very Friendly people thay are...

To Jocaiba:

This is my original Post:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=8843972#post8843972


at one point at the 4th or 5th page...I wrote it backwards...and jocaiba is trying to pick on that...

but it does not change the disgraceful situation of the Veterans...

But still ...1/3 of all homeless people are veterans(or worse 40%) ...is still a Shame for the VA dept...

so...what years did you work at the VA?

Are you just going to keep reposting the same points? I responded to those points and so have others. I answered your questions. I believe you insulted someone earlier for not reading all the posts. Why don't you go back and do so? Again, I'm patient. I can wait. The homeless veterans is not a failure by the VA dept. There are plenty of programs available to help veterans get off the street and they are not be used to full capacity which, in fact, encourages congress to cut funds to those programs. People have rights and you cannot force them to live in a house or to come in off the streets, even if they're veterans. Many of these people are mentally ill but not dangerous to themselves or others so the government has no jurisdiction in their particular plight. And don't start with that 40% crap because it quotes the VA as having given that number and the number from the VA is 1/3 or around 200,000 veterans homeless on any given night. Oh and for the record, veterans represent about 1/4 of the adult male population. That means the number of homeless is not significantly out of whack. Meanwhile, you fail to address the high percentage of veterans as CEOs, the high percentage of veterans holding elected government positions (president, congress, governors, etc). If you can name any other organization that has had such a high success rate for former members making these position, I'd like to hear it.

EDIT: Oh and here's a link that actually gives you some information on the veteran population and the number living at or below poverty as compared to the rest of the population. It's the US Census beaureau. http://factfinder.census.gov/jsp/saff/SAFFInfo.jsp?_pageId=tp12_veterans

ha ha

Just ask the recruiter if he wants to go out and make out sometime. Tell him you have always had a thing for big strong men in uniform. That should scare 'em off, assuming you are a guy that is.

Hell, You don't even have to do that. Just tell them you are a Theatre Major. I did that when I was 18 & never got a call from a recruiter again. I didn't even speak with a lisp.

Assumption is the mother of all f-ups for those homophobic military types.

The last question in the list that you cut and pasted (first post). You cut it out. I'm curious why. You know, the one about adventure.

I'm still waiting for you to addres this one, OD.