NationStates Jolt Archive

i'm just checking to see where we all stand....this is a corrected version of the rather botched original...sry guys....

What was wrong with the original?

Anyway, as no grave metaphysical quandries have made me change my opinion in the last 15 minutes, I'm still a member of The Religious Society of Friends (Quakers). And I'm still throwing up my link to show how we translate our beliefs into real world actions.

American Friends Service Committee (http://www.afsc.org)

What was wrong with the original?

Anyway, as no grave metaphysical quandries have made me change my opinion in the last 15 minutes, I'm still a member of The Religious Society of Friends (Quakers). And I'm still throwing up my link to show how we translate our beliefs into real world actions.

American Friends Service Committee (http://www.afsc.org)
firstly, you were not included. secondly, someone took offence at my calling atheism a religion. thirdly, i left judaism out... :headbang:

Wheeeee! My own little radio button! I have ARRIVED!!!!

Thanks AQ. :)

I guess I'm a mix between mystic and seeker... so I put other..

Basically, I'm doing my best to figure out what in the world is True, and what isn't... I believe there is absolute Truth, it's just blasted hard to find it...

The mystic part is how I'm attempting to find the Truth...

Also, if it matters, I'm a former Christian... a religion which I find holds a good bit of Truth, but it is severely lacking in certain areas of Truth....

Wheeeee! My own little radio button! I have ARRIVED!!!!

Thanks AQ. :)
np, dude.

I guess I'm a mix between mystic and seeker... so I put other..

Basically, I'm doing my best to figure out what in the world is True, and what isn't... I believe there is absolute Truth, it's just blasted hard to find it...

The mystic part is how I'm attempting to find the Truth...

Also, if it matters, I'm a former Christian... a religion which I find holds a good bit of Truth, but it is severely lacking in certain areas of Truth....
i'd be interested in hearing what part of Truth Christianity is lacking...

I guess I'm a mix between mystic and seeker... so I put other..

Basically, I'm doing my best to figure out what in the world is True, and what isn't... I believe there is absolute Truth, it's just blasted hard to find it...

The mystic part is how I'm attempting to find the Truth...

Also, if it matters, I'm a former Christian... a religion which I find holds a good bit of Truth, but it is severely lacking in certain areas of Truth....

i'd be interested in hearing what part of Truth Christianity is lacking...

Ditto here. As a philosophy major, I have noticed that there are a few things that people tend not to emphasize in Christianity that other systems do, but I haven't found anything major that it completely fails to address.

:rolleyes:

Oh, these threads are wonderful... Anyway, I'm not the least bit religious. Call me Athiest if you wish, but I'd prefer it if you don't stick me with a label.

:rolleyes:

Oh, these threads are wonderful... Anyway, I'm not the least bit religious. Call me Athiest if you wish, but I'd prefer it if you don't stick me with a label.
no problem.

*sigh* :( , i wish the people who voted on the first one would vote here too.

I think I've made this comment before in previous threads like this, but I'm not sure that agnosticism and atheism constitute as religions in themselves. Just like theism. None the less, I voted agnosticism. Though I consider myself a Humanist.

I think I've made this comment before in previous threads like this, but I'm not sure that agnosticism and atheism constitute as religions in themselves. Just like theism. None the less, I voted agnosticism. Though I consider myself a Humanist.
that is why it's titled "or lack there-of"

I am mostly Spirtualist, but I think that heaven & hell & the devil are all part of the ineffiable plan.

To give a quick rundown on my beliefs,
there is a god/supreme being
we live several lifes to learn
we have appointments in life that we must keep but other than that we have free will
we have a fixed lifespan, but not health plan
God knows your true thoughs/feelings so there is no need for churches, only thought/meditation on what you have done and why

*sigh* :( , i wish the people who voted on the first one would vote here too.
You made this one public. So, fewer people will vote as they will be held to their responses. ;)
If you check it again tomorrow, I'm sure you'll have plenty of votes. Don't worry about it.

Actually, Quakers are Christians.

It is another denomonation of the Christian faith, including:

Roman Cathloic
Protestant
Orthodox
Presbetryan
Evangelical
Methodist
Salvation Army
Gospel
Baptist

So to have two seperate options for "Christian" and "Quaker" is like having "Roman Catholic" as a seperate option.

Some languages and cultures do make a difference between "Catholic" and "Christian". This is the case in both Hong Kong and Taiwan. It is not really possible in Chinese to say someone belongs to the larger category of Christian, they have to choose between the Catholic and Protestant branches of Christianity.

I am mostly Spirtualist, but I think that heaven & hell & the devil are all part of the ineffiable plan.

To give a quick rundown on my beliefs,
there is a god/supreme being
we live several lifes to learn
we have appointments in life that we must keep but other than that we have free will
we have a fixed lifespan, but not health plan
God knows your true thoughs/feelings so there is no need for churches, only thought/meditation on what you have done and why

I think similarily, but class myself as Deist
I agree, but I believe through reincarcantion, we become more polarised until we ascend to heaven, or descend into hell. Or stay the same until a shift of self occurs. The dalai lama is a special case

I tnihk no organised can ever be absolutely right as God can not be understood by us

Ditto here. As a philosophy major, I have noticed that there are a few things that people tend not to emphasize in Christianity that other systems do, but I haven't found anything major that it completely fails to address.

Question does Christianity address rebirth? Or for that matter does christianity address the idea that other religions are right as well- though patently non-christian in their forms of prayer? Does it address the notion of the omni-presence of God? (Rather than omnipotence)
Last Question --> Only god creates, god created hell, god created Love ok so who created Hate? How created Lust? God too? is that addressed.
Really asking from the point of someone who can get shakespeare and the bible mixed up. :cool:

I think I've made this comment before in previous threads like this, but I'm not sure that agnosticism and atheism constitute as religions in themselves. Just like theism. None the less, I voted agnosticism. Though I consider myself a Humanist.

A poll on hair colour would require a "bald" option. Here that role is filled by the atheist and agnostic categories.

Omnipresence of God (there are more, but here are a few):
New International Version

Psalms 139:7-12
Ps 139:7 Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?
Ps 139:8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
Ps 139:9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea,
Ps 139:10 even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast.
Ps 139:11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me,"
Ps 139:12 even the darkness will not be dark to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you.

Jeremiah 23:23-24
Jer 23:23 "Am I only a God nearby," declares the LORD, "and not a God far away?
Jer 23:24 Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?" declares the LORD. "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" declares the LORD.

Isaiah 66:1
Isa 66:1 This is what the LORD says: "Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where is the house you will build for me? Where will my resting place be?


Ephesians 1:23
Eph 1:23 ....which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Psalms 139:7-12
Ps 139:7 Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?
Ps 139:8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
Ps 139:9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea,
Ps 139:10 even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast.
Ps 139:11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me,"
Ps 139:12 even the darkness will not be dark to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you.

Jewish

Jeremiah 23:23-24
Jer 23:23 "Am I only a God nearby," declares the LORD, "and not a God far away?
Jer 23:24 Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?" declares the LORD. "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" declares the LORD.

Jewish

Isaiah 66:1
Isa 66:1 This is what the LORD says: "Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where is the house you will build for me? Where will my resting place be?


Jewish

Ephesians 1:23
Eph 1:23 ....which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Finally!

I believe that I am god.

Seriously though, I vote 'other'. And no, I'm not telling you what it is. This is the last forum I'd want to do that in...

Most Christians do accept the Old Testament as being inspired by God as well, you know.

But we are getting kinda off topic.....lets not hijack the thread :)

You forgot several religions! Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism, Taoism, Confucianism, Shinto....need I go on?

I grew up southern Baptist, but "converted" to Hinduism several years ago.

Skeksis

The atheist fools return, it seems. Your outlook on life is so dim and gray and horrible. How can you stand believing what you do? Is your life really that bad that you want to not exist? That you want to die? There are places you can help for troubles like that, seriously, it's not normal.

"There is no logic in Christianity."
"None of it makes sense."
"There is no reasoning in it."

We need the enlightenment of the holy spirit because by our own reason we are unable to know God or the things He has said and done in the Bible. Your questioning of God is sickening. All I see are threads about, "Flaws in Christianity", "God doesn't exist!". Why concentrate so heavily on Christianity when there are countless other religions you could yell about?

"Christianity is true, unlike all the other religions, so let's bash it and say it isn't so we can condemn us all to an eternity in hell!"

Well fuck you, my friend.

"I don't want to be a Christian because I don't want to go around like a fool kissing babies and helping people out just to get to Heaven."

That's not even close. You cannot get to Heaven by good works. It is by grace you are saved, through Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

If I told someone there was a pink goat on my head, they would not believe me. If someone tells me there is a God in the universe, I do not believe them.

So atheist.

The atheist fools return, it seems. Your outlook on life is so dim and gray and horrible. How can you stand believing what you do? Is your life really that bad that you want to not exist? That you want to die? There are places you can help for troubles like that, seriously, it's not normal.


I can't believe in God just because it's a nice idea. It's like believing that I have a red sports car just because that would be nice. Being atheist isn't about wanting there to be no God, it's about noticing that there isn't one, and not trying to delude oneself into thinking otherwise.

I'm not any of religion, but my stance on god/belief set is generally Agnosticism.

It's like believing that I have a red sports car just because that would be nice.

You know, you might be on to something here.

***Californian Refugees concentrates reeeeally hard on believing that he has a red sports car***

Question does Christianity address rebirth? Or for that matter does christianity address the idea that other religions are right as well- though patently non-christian in their forms of prayer?

It addresses them in that it says you die, you go to heaven to live with God for the rest of your spiritual life, therefore, no rebirth on earth (heh, that rhymed.). In the Bible it says that the only way to God is through Jesus. You have to believe in Jesus to go to heaven. I believe that you can be converted once you reach the point where you are judged, which is a rather bad choice of words it's more like your spirit chooses whether it wants to stay in Gods presence or not. If worshipping God on Earth wasn't to your liking, than heaven won't be to your liking either, God gives you the free will to worship him or not, and the free will to choose to be with him or not.

I don't think that the original religion question matters, but I am extremely adhering to Christianity.
:D
Some of you probably know that by now anyway, though.

If I told someone there was a pink goat on my head, they would not believe me. If someone tells me there is a God in the universe, I do not believe them.

So atheist.

You're not here, but there's a purple mountain goat on your head.

You forgot several religions! Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism, Taoism, Confucianism, Shinto....need I go on?

I grew up southern Baptist, but "converted" to Hinduism several years ago.

You know that there are only ten available slots for poll options. In my opinion, he should have just put the five major world religions up there and an 'other.'
Don't whine if the teensy, tiny minority is not put up there.

"Hey, you forgot Greek Mythology! I hate you!"

What are the five world religions again? Hold on, lemme check. Ah, here we go: in order from most followers to least, as recorded in 2003:
1) Christians (32.84%)
2) Muslims (19.9%)
3) Hindus (13.29%)
4) Bhuddists (5.92%)
5) Atheists (apparantly, it's a religion; non-religious is a different part) (2.36%)

Wow, a full THIRD of the world follows Jesus. Two billion people... hmm...
I heard a saying that said, "A billion Hindus can't be wrong."
Well, how 'bout TWO billion Christians?

an interesting competition between christian and atheist. hmm... facinating. could it be that these are just the two whose members feel the need to display and defend their beliefs and that's why it's so high while others just ignore the question?

Not really.
As far as I've seen it, atheists say they don't care about God, but plunge headlong into a debate at the slightest mention of His name, while the Christians are led to spread the Gospel.
I do it not only for that reason, but also because I love to debate.

I can't believe in God just because it's a nice idea. It's like believing that I have a red sports car just because that would be nice. Being atheist isn't about wanting there to be no God, it's about noticing that there isn't one, and not trying to delude oneself into thinking otherwise.

No, Tetrannia, THIS is the atheist fools' return. At least, the return to the equally common accusation.

Keep your arguments and/or debates as unique as possible.

I heard a saying that said, "A billion Hindus can't be wrong."
Well, how 'bout TWO billion Christians?

Who made up that saying? Something isn't made right by having lots of believers... in the past, plenty of wrong ideas have been supported by the majority.

This is a great song, I'm singing it here while I'm listening to it on my speakers:

She's so cool it's almost eerie
She's so fine I lost all hope
Genetical Testing
Something has gone wrong
She should get back in her cage before they find she's gone.

She said she hated Kenny G.
That girl is way too good for me
We'll break up before it starts
She'll only tear my world apart
Da nananananananananaaaaa

Pre-Ex Girlfriend
That girl is just too fine
Pre-ex girlfriend
....
etc. etc. etc.


It goes on.

Who made up that saying? Something isn't made right by having lots of believers... in the past, plenty of wrong ideas have been supported by the majority.
Yes, of course, I know that.

I just decided to add that little saying off the playground, not for the sake of argument, but just for fun.

No, Tetrannia, THIS is the atheist fools' return. At least, the return to the equally common accusation.

I'm not really sure what you're talking about, but I was tackling a common claim that atheism is wrong because the idea is not nice to think about.

However, I get the feeling that I should not argue with you, as you will oppose any sentence I should type simply because I were the typist. Continue calling me a fool as you please. I shall not so lower myself as to retaliate in such a manner.

Ooh, another song:

Requiem (The Fifth), Trans Siberian Orchestra, Beethoven's Last Night

It's mostly instrumental, but there are two vocal lines.

Voca me bendictum!
Sana meam animam!

It's such a cool song apart from that, though.

Yes, of course, I know that.

I just decided to add that little saying off the playground, not for the sake of argument, but just for fun.

I didn't mean to accuse you of being victim to such ill-logic. It was just a remark, directed at no-one in particular.

I'm not really sure what you're talking about, but I was tackling a common claim that atheism is wrong because the idea is not nice to think about.

However, I get the feeling that I should not argue with you, as you will oppose any sentence I should type simply because I were the typist. Continue calling me a fool as you please. I shall not so lower myself as to retaliate in such a manner.

Oh dear. I knew I was jumping into something I shouldn't when I said that.

Sorry, I've just heard that EXACT same response to that EXACT same accusation so many times it causes me pain. Debates should be a bit more vibrant and less predictable then that.
Just my opinion. But you can feel free to debate with me if you wish. Now I'm in the right attitude for it: often I introduce myself with a fun-ner (?) air before actually beginning a debate.

Sorry again.

Mine

I didn't mean to accuse you of being victim to such ill-logic. It was just a remark, directed at no-one in particular.

I would say "it's alright," but I never took offense at it, nor would it get us any further in an argument.

So let's begin, shall we?


I believe in the fact that God made the universe, and, more importantly, that He sent His own Son to live here with us, humanity, only to die on our behalf. Thus is the way for us to regain the place with God that we were created for, and it will be ours as soon as we die.
Of course, doubtless you've also heard before that not believing and understanding this gift is a sure-fire way to recieve eternal damnation.

Those're my beliefs, what are yours?

Mine

Hmm? What does that mean? :confused:

I didn't mean to accuse you of being victim to such ill-logic. It was just a remark, directed at no-one in particular.

And I would now like to dance around my room in joy at finding someone who actually uses correct grammar and spelling while posting.
Congratulations!

Hmm? What does that mean? :confused:
A hole in the ground where you get iron and gold and coal

A hole in the ground where you get iron and gold and coal

Ah, good.
Can't forget platinum and uranium either. Not to mention silver, precious gems, etc.

Hmm? What does that mean? :confused:It means what it means he who has ears to hear let him hear.

you know, i kinda agree with vespucii. I'm not a christian but, christians have a reason to talk about God. It's why they're christian. but atheist on the other hand, love talking about God too for some reason. it's strange like that. which is why i don't consider myself atheist because it sometimes seems more anti-god then not believing in anything. they seem to believe pretty darn strongly in something.

you know, i kinda agree with vespucii. I'm not a christian but, christians have a reason to talk about God. It's why they're christian. but atheist on the other hand, love talking about God too for some reason. it's strange like that. which is why i don't consider myself atheist because it sometimes seems more anti-god then not believing in anything. they seem to believe pretty darn strongly in something.

Everyone has to ponder sometime about religion. It's natural. However, it's natural for a reason. Can you guess the reason?

Here's a hint: it begins with a G-O, ends with a D, and has no letters in between.

It means what it means he who has ears to hear let him hear.

Ah.

I believe in the fact that God made the universe, and, more importantly, that He sent His own Son to live here with us, humanity, only to die on our behalf. Thus is the way for us to regain the place with God that we were created for, and it will be ours as soon as we die.
Of course, doubtless you've also heard before that not believing and understanding this gift is a sure-fire way to recieve eternal damnation.

Those're my beliefs, what are yours?

I am an atheist, believing that, on the basis of my experiences it is logical to conclude that there is no such thing as God. I would expect a being with omnipotence to achieve anything he desires. If there is such a being, and he desires to be worshipped by all, it seems to me, logical to conclude that he would have such worship.

That is to say that if God existed, I would have noticed Him by now. Some may claim that He exists and that I am ignoring Him, but this speaks more of their desire to dismiss my experiences than it speaks of my own psychological state.

Should an omniscient being exist, I would not expect Him to in any way resemble a human personality as is described in Christianity and other religions. And should he be perfect in goodness, I would not expect Him to have such emotions as jealousy, and would not expect Him to desire the eternal punishment of someone who merely concluded that he did not exist (especially since His omnipotence would allow him to remedy the situation at any time, thus making it ridiculous to blame the limited human).

My parents taught me into adventist( SDA) religion since I was a boy. They kick me out of there at 20 tho.

Ah.Whats funny is you are your religion but if you believe in my manor you are my religion.

Isn´t a choice for us who do not attend to a church, do not profess any kind of religion, and are not seeking to join one?

I am an atheist, believing that, on the basis of my experiences it is logical to conclude that there is no such thing as God. I would expect a being with omnipotence to achieve anything he desires. If there is such a being, and he desires to be worshipped by all, it seems to me, logical to conclude that he would have such worship.

That is to say that if God existed, I would have noticed Him by now. Some may claim that He exists and that I am ignoring Him, but this speaks more of their desire to dismiss my experiences than it speaks of my own psychological state.

Should an omniscient being exist, I would not expect Him to in any way resemble a human personality as is described in Christianity and other religions. And should he be perfect in goodness, I would not expect Him to have such emotions as jealousy, and would not expect Him to desire the eternal punishment of someone who merely concluded that he did not exist (especially since His omnipotence would allow him to remedy the situation at any time, thus making it ridiculous to blame the limited human).

:D :D :D

Alright, this can turn into a sensible debate now.

Firstoff, to prevent the old attack-the-other-guy arguments, I will provide some reasons why I believe my religion is true.

Although personal experience is hardly official information, I was raised like a typical middle-class family. Going to church every once in a while, but honestly not caring about religion or anything. A half-full life which could potentially be more lethal than being grown up in a strongly atheist family.
One day, during one of the few times that we went to church, I actually paid attention. I was only in fourth grade, but I immediately understood that the message, which was, to my eternal benefit, about Jesus Himself, was the truth. They ritually called those who were not believers to come down the aisles and become evangelized, and, I must admit, that I had a sever emotional breakdown when I came down to the preacher. Although I am loathe to tell you, I cried quite an amount. It was, even for being as young as a fourth-grader, quite unlike me.

Anyway, that's the personal experience that I have. Apart from that:

I can garuntee to you that God is speaking to you all the time. You have so much around you, life, basically, that you can not hear it at all. I promise you, 100%, that if you give yourself the internall quietness to be open to any arguments that you can find spoken to you from either side, God will win.

Also, I need to tell you that if you search deep within your own memories to find an ultimate root for what you believe, weather it be your opinions on your friend next door or your decisions upon religion, you may find something that requires reconsidering. I have looked upon myself and wondered why I follow Christianity, what I found was not anything questionable. So why not believe it?
However, if you ask yourself, hypothetically, why you believe in atheism, and all you can come up with is because someone else has told you so, maybe you should open yourself up intelligably to other things as well.

people question because they can't stand not knowing and feel the need to fill the gap with SomeTHing. humans fear the unknown.

( i embrace it. )

Isn´t a choice for us who do not attend to a church, do not profess any kind of religion, and are not seeking to join one?
Agnostic usually fits that.

Sorry, shadowstorm, for the amount of time it took me to post my debate.

Whats funny is you are your religion but if you believe in my manor you are my religion.

I remember debating with you, but I do not recall your 'manor.'

What is your extremely large, castle-like house again?

I remember debating with you, but I do not recall your 'manor.'

What is your extremely large, castle-like house again?I do not have a large house

That's what a manor is... Oh, never mind.

Whats your *manner*, again?

That's what a manor is... Oh, never mind.

Whats your *manner*, again?im revelationist

That's what a manor is... Oh, never mind.

Whats your *manner*, again?
:rolleyes: smart ass :D

im revelationist

Forgive me: I have had little opportunities to learn about terms of differing beliefs inside Christianity.
Please elaborate.

:rolleyes: smart ass :D

Bite me.

Forgive me: I have had little opportunities to learn about terms of differing beliefs inside Christianity.
Please elaborate.As i said it is my new religion

Shadowstorm? I need some sort of intelligent debate to go on here. Where be you?

Bite me.
are you tasty?

I can garuntee to you that God is speaking to you all the time. You have so much around you, life, basically, that you can not hear it at all. I promise you, 100%, that if you give yourself the internall quietness to be open to any arguments that you can find spoken to you from either side, God will win.
I assure you, that should God speak to me, I would not resist. I am completely open to evidence from either side. As a supporter of science, I loathe the idea of ignoring evidence.


Also, I need to tell you that if you search deep within your own memories to find an ultimate root for what you believe, weather it be your opinions on your friend next door or your decisions upon religion, you may find something that requires reconsidering. I have looked upon myself and wondered why I follow Christianity, what I found was not anything questionable. So why not believe it?
However, if you ask yourself, hypothetically, why you believe in atheism, and all you can come up with is because someone else has told you so, maybe you should open yourself up intelligably to other things as well.

I am not atheist because someone told me to be. I have always had christianity around me. Atheism is something I found on my own. Far from resisting Christianity, I resisted atheism for a long time. I didn't like atheism or the possible implications, but I realised I was just avoiding reality.

As i said it is my new religion

Ah, I see.

Off Topic:
This is a good song.

I assure you, that should God speak to me, I would not resist. I am completely open to evidence from either side. As a supporter of science, I loathe the idea of ignoring evidence.

Alright. Then let Him.


I am not atheist because someone told me to be. I have always had christianity around me. Atheism is something I found on my own. Far from resisting Christianity, I resisted atheism for a long time. I didn't like atheism or the possible implications, but I realised I was just avoiding reality.

I WAS saying hypothetically. And, if you DID resist atheism, why do you still not? It seems like something that you do not have to resist too hard for any sane human to reject.

are you tasty?

You're being annoying.

You're being annoying.
picking on other people's typo's is hardly constructive [/hijack]

picking on other people's typo's is hardly constructive [/hijack]

I was just walking around the forums when I thought I heard the sound of a thread being hijacked and had to get involved.

As you say, you have had Christianity all around you, and yet you accepted atheism. Friend, I have been surrounded by both sides (and a few other sides), and I understand that, for my own benefit and for that of those around me, I should not reject my faith at ALL.
You have no clue how much I wish for you to take back your Christianity, Shadowstorm. I beg of you, I can not bear to think that I have once again failed to assist people into God's presence.

I will not, for sake of losing you, argue against your beliefs. I will try my hardest, although it it difficult, to show you that mine is the truth. I am not going to ask you to believe this because of some mathematical or scientific reason. Not because I say so, not because it's the best-looking one, but because it's the TRUTH.

Alright. Then let Him.

I am letting Him. I He wants to come speak to me right now, he's free to. I'd even make Him a cup of tea should He so desire.

I WAS saying hypothetically. And, if you DID resist atheism, why do you still not? It seems like something that you do not have to resist too hard for any sane human to reject.

Why do I no longer resist? It is analagous to a man who tries to resist gravity because he wants to be able to fly by flapping his arms. Eventually he realises that gravity is just something he has to accept.

As for your attack on my sanity, I must ask you to examine your own psyche to find out why you are reacting so strongly.

I was just walking around the forums when I thought I heard the sound of a thread being hijacked and had to get involved.
indeed, all we need is Skippy to join in

indeed, all we need is Skippy to join in

Yeah skip, you with us here?

As you say, you have had Christianity all around you, and yet you accepted atheism. Friend, I have been surrounded by both sides (and a few other sides), and I understand that, for my own benefit and for that of those around me, I should not reject my faith at ALL.
You have no clue how much I wish for you to take back your Christianity, Shadowstorm. I beg of you, I can not bear to think that I have once again failed to assist people into God's presence.

While I am compassionate, I cannot try to force myself to believe something to ease your mind.

I will not, for sake of losing you, argue against your beliefs. I will try my hardest, although it it difficult, to show you that mine is the truth. I am not going to ask you to believe this because of some mathematical or scientific reason. Not because I say so, not because it's the best-looking one, but because it's the TRUTH.
The problem, however, is that I believe that is not the truth. I am not convinced by such things as capitalisation. Such tactics rely on the ability to emotionally manipulate someone, whereas I am motivated by logic in this regard.

Why do I no longer resist? It is analagous to a man who tries to resist gravity because he wants to be able to fly by flapping his arms. Eventually he realises that gravity is just something he has to accept.

As for your attack on my sanity, I must ask you to examine your own psyche to find out why you are reacting so strongly.

Sorry about the appearance of an attack. I did not mean it in the way that you took it as. From here, in front of my screen, it does not seem as if I am reacting strongly at all. No, wait, that is a lie. I am reacting strongly, but not in my own defence. I just don't want too see someone who seems so close to God once more fall away because I failed.

You must understand this, that, even if you believe that evolution made the universe or anything, it is imperative that you trust that Jesus died so that the things that you've done in your life, every one of them that has ever pricked your guilt or that you've known was a bad thing to do, will be completely forgiven when God looks for them in your life. Without that protection, I am so sorry to say that you would be hopeless. For your own sake, don't let that happen.

Actually, Quakers are Christians.

It is another denomonation of the Christian faith, including:

Roman Cathloic
Protestant
Orthodox
Presbetryan
Evangelical
Methodist
Salvation Army
Gospel
Baptist

So to have two seperate options for "Christian" and "Quaker" is like having "Roman Catholic" as a seperate option.
i know, but the very first voter was a quaker and upset that they didn't ahve there own radio button. so i gave them one.

I always thought that atheist and agnostic were the same thing, could someone explain the difference?

Yeah skip, you with us here?
doesnt appear to be

I assure you, that should God speak to me, I would not resist. I am completely open to evidence from either side. As a supporter of science, I loathe the idea of ignoring evidence.

Most atheists don't like this answer, but here we go. I don’t think that the mind is the best tool to discern such things, and whether they admit it or not neither do most Christians. I think a lot of Christianity is mired down in trying to have a battle with science on its own terms when thats patently ridiculous. Reason is fine, but it is good to accept reason for what it is and have a reason aware of its own limitations and fallibility. That is the nature of faith, something we dont put alot of stock in anymore. God waits beyond the final equation, not in it. On the same token I dont think a religious experience and a strong faith is something you can bludgeon into people. For me it was something that took years of developement and doubt.



I am not atheist because someone told me to be. I have always had christianity around me. Atheism is something I found on my own. Far from resisting Christianity, I resisted atheism for a long time. I didn't like atheism or the possible implications, but I realised I was just avoiding reality.

So what do you have then? Man, ever striving toward the infinate but rejecting god, works tirelessly to become his own god. You are left with despair or the will to perfection. One is worthless and the other always out of your grasp.

While I am compassionate, I cannot try to force myself to believe something to ease your mind.


The problem, however, is that I believe that is not the truth. I am not convinced by such things as capitalisation. Such tactics rely on the ability to emotionally manipulate someone, whereas I am motivated by logic in this regard.

You're looking at this too logistically. You need to stop. I am not trying to manipulate you, I am trying to throw you a line. I've seen a vast number of hopeless people on the internet and while I lived my life, and I don't see you as one of them. Although I have no clue who you are, your name, what you are like, I just know that you can be changed.
You know the truth, you are familiar with the stories. You, as you say, grew up around them, but you rejected them.

God is everywhere. Even the things that you said made you reject Him are in His posession. If you look around you, even if you just read a science book from seventh grade, for crying out loud, the power and beauty of the universe whispers of something majestic, something intelligent, behind it all. You know that, I'm sure, for yourself. Isn't there something that you feel you are missing? Something that you feel is unattainable but that you want so dearly? Something intangible that you regardless know will make you content? You must. Even I did, even back in Elementary school.

You need God, and nothing that you believe otherwise can change that, ever.

I always thought that atheist and agnostic were the same thing, could someone explain the difference?
Agnostic is basically a fence sitter ;)

Sorry about the appearance of an attack. I did not mean it in the way that you took it as. From here, in front of my screen, it does not seem as if I am reacting strongly at all. No, wait, that is a lie. I am reacting strongly, but not in my own defence. I just don't want too see someone who seems so close to God once more fall away because I failed.
You needn't feel responsible. There are many christians who have had the opportunity to convince me. And more importantly, if God exists, he too has failed to convince me, something I find absurd, as God would never fail.


You must understand this, that, even if you believe that evolution made the universe or anything, it is imperative that you trust that Jesus died so that the things that you've done in your life, every one of them that has ever pricked your guilt or that you've known was a bad thing to do, will be completely forgiven when God looks for them in your life. Without that protection, I am so sorry to say that you would be hopeless. For your own sake, don't let that happen.

I understand the concept. I just don't see any reason to believe that it is true. I don't believe that God exists, and believe that the stories of Jesus are merely legends.

"It ain't those parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand." - Mark Twain.

I always thought that atheist and agnostic were the same thing, could someone explain the difference?

Agnostic is, without any other term, 'non-believer.'

Atheist is a strong opposition to any religion.

I always thought that atheist and agnostic were the same thing, could someone explain the difference?

a·the·ist P Pronunciation Key (th-st)
n.
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods


ag·nos·tic P Pronunciation Key (g-nstk)
n.
One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.


www.dictionary.com

Agnostic is, without any other term, 'non-believer.'

Atheist is a strong opposition to any religion.

Actually, no.

An agnostic is simply someone who says that they don't know, or more strongly that they cannot know whether God exists.

An atheist is someone who lacks belief in the existence of God, or more strongly, believes that there is no God.

You needn't feel responsible. There are many christians who have had the opportunity to convince me. And more importantly, if God exists, he too has failed to convince me, something I find absurd, as God would never fail.



I understand the concept. I just don't see any reason to believe that it is true. I don't believe that God exists, and believe that the stories of Jesus are merely legends.

"It ain't those parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand." - Mark Twain.

The stories of Jesus are not legends, in fact, I have some wonderful Roman historian accounts of Jesus's existence:
Let's see, ah
Tacitus Annales XV wrote a small amount on how the Jews rose up against the Roman Empire for Jesus, and how Jesus was executed.
Suetonius also made a similar side note, adding a piece to the effect that the Jews also claimed that Jesus performed miracles.

So, Jesus was true, and the things that He did, a number of which were well recorded by secular historians, were also prophesized many centuries before.

Such evidence could not possibly be denied. All on its own it provides, to my experience, a wonderful defence on Jesus's behalf.

You need God, and nothing that you believe otherwise can change that, ever.

For gods sake, let the guy believe what he wants to.

As it happens, I don't believe in jesus either, at least in jesus as more than just another good (or bad) jew (but admittedly thats probably my fault in being born a jew too).

a·the·ist P Pronunciation Key (th-st)
n.
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods


ag·nos·tic P Pronunciation Key (g-nstk)
n.
One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.


www.dictionary.com

Alright, that works too.
Guess I was wrong.

For gods sake, let the guy believe what he wants to.

As it happens, I don't believe in jesus either, at least in jesus as more than just another good (or bad) jew (but admittedly thats probably my fault in being born a jew too).

I couldn't. It's just not in my heart to abandon this and leave him without hope. If only I could meet you face-to-face, Shadowstorm.

The stories of Jesus are not legends, in fact, I have some wonderful Roman historian accounts of Jesus's existence:
Let's see, ah
Tacitus Annales XV wrote a small amount on how the Jews rose up against the Roman Empire for Jesus, and how Jesus was executed.
Suetonius also made a similar side note, adding a piece to the effect that the Jews also claimed that Jesus performed miracles.

So, Jesus was true, and the things that He did, a number of which were well recorded by secular historians, were also prophesized many centuries before.
I have accounts that show I am god but that doesnt make it true

The stories of Jesus are not legends, in fact, I have some wonderful Roman historian accounts of Jesus's existence:
Let's see, ah
Tacitus Annales XV wrote a small amount on how the Jews rose up against the Roman Empire for Jesus, and how Jesus was executed.
Suetonius also made a similar side note, adding a piece to the effect that the Jews also claimed that Jesus performed miracles.

So, Jesus was true, and the things that He did, a number of which were well recorded by secular historians, were also prophesized many centuries before.

There is a saying, "Don't believe everything you read". I tend to put stories of miracles in the "dont believe" group, along with UFO sightings and astrology.

For gods sake, let the guy believe what he wants to.

As it happens, I don't believe in jesus either, at least in jesus as more than just another good (or bad) jew (but admittedly thats probably my fault in being born a jew too).

A dead faith is no faith at all. We must always debate and discuss or we have nothing.

Personnaly I believe that Jesus did exist, but as a mortal. He was just a person that did great things.

In the words of a great comedian, "In the bible there's wine, and alot of crazy shit... I think the wine came first."

Agnostic/Weak Atheist

In the words of a great comedian, "In the bible there's wine, and alot of crazy shit... I think the wine came first."
:D thats classic

I can't do this. I am loathe to leave, but I can't possibly argue for Jesus if I am unable to see the people I am arguing with. All you have to do is say 'that guy's wrong,' to the computer screen, and I can't change your opinion at all. I can't persist.

All I can say, now, is that Jesus is true. It's the last word I will give you, but it is so important.
Jesus was not only man, not only God, but the sacrafice that is our ticket into heaven. He's our back door. You must believe this, because you can't make it through the front door, my friends. The only other option is hell. And, even if you think that worship of God is unentertaining, hell is the worst possible thing that you could ever choose in your life. Nothing can top that mistake. So don't make it. It's that simple.

I can't do this. I am loathe to leave, but I can't possibly argue for Jesus if I am unable to see the people I am arguing with. All you have to do is say 'that guy's wrong,' to the computer screen, and I can't change your opinion at all. I can't persist.

All I can say, now, is that Jesus is true. It's the last word I will give you, but it is so important.
Jesus was not only man, not only God, but the sacrafice that is our ticket into heaven. He's our back door. You must believe this, because you can't make it through the front door, my friends. The only other option is hell. And, even if you think that worship of God is unentertaining, hell is the worst possible thing that you could ever choose in your life. Nothing can top that mistake. So don't make it. It's that simple.
thats okay ill repent on my deathbed

All I can say, now, is that Jesus is true. It's the last word I will give you, but it is so important.
Jesus was not only man, not only God, but the sacrafice that is our ticket into heaven. He's our back door. You must believe this, because you can't make it through the front door, my friends.

Like I said, I know understand the concept. I have been told these things before, I just do not believe them to be accurate.

The only other option is hell. And, even if you think that worship of God is unentertaining, hell is the worst possible thing that you could ever choose in your life. Nothing can top that mistake. So don't make it. It's that simple.

I don't see how any God worth worshipping would punish His creations in such a way, when he never even showed himself to them.

I can't do this. I am loathe to leave, but I can't possibly argue for Jesus if I am unable to see the people I am arguing with. All you have to do is say 'that guy's wrong,' to the computer screen, and I can't change your opinion at all. I can't persist.

All I can say, now, is that Jesus is true. It's the last word I will give you, but it is so important.
Jesus was not only man, not only God, but the sacrafice that is our ticket into heaven. He's our back door. You must believe this, because you can't make it through the front door, my friends. The only other option is hell. And, even if you think that worship of God is unentertaining, hell is the worst possible thing that you could ever choose in your life. Nothing can top that mistake. So don't make it. It's that simple.

Is it any harder to discount people in person? I think people are much more receptive via the net than in reality. And I for one never abandon a good debate, whether I am making headway or not.

I am an atheist, believing that, on the basis of my experiences it is logical to conclude that there is no such thing as God. I would expect a being with omnipotence to achieve anything he desires. If there is such a being, and he desires to be worshipped by all, it seems to me, logical to conclude that he would have such worship.

That is to say that if God existed, I would have noticed Him by now. Some may claim that He exists and that I am ignoring Him, but this speaks more of their desire to dismiss my experiences than it speaks of my own psychological state.

Should an omniscient being exist, I would not expect Him to in any way resemble a human personality as is described in Christianity and other religions. And should he be perfect in goodness, I would not expect Him to have such emotions as jealousy, and would not expect Him to desire the eternal punishment of someone who merely concluded that he did not exist (especially since His omnipotence would allow him to remedy the situation at any time, thus making it ridiculous to blame the limited human).
He doesn't just want worship, He wants us to WANT to worship. He can't just make us without violating our free will, which He won't do. it saddens me that you have not noticed Him. I spent a few years running away from Him, but everywhere i go, there He is also...it was rather annoying for a while :rolleyes:

The only other option is hell. And, even if you think that worship of God is unentertaining, hell is the worst possible thing that you could ever choose in your life.

For me the worst thing I could choose would be to waste my only life worshipping a nonexistent God, paving my way towards a nonexistent afterlife and being afraid of nonexistent Hell. But hey, to each his own right?

He doesn't just want worship, He wants us to WANT to worship.
Well tell Him he'd have a much greater chance of success if He actually showed his existence (except, of course, he ought to already know this...).


He can't just make us without violating our free will, which He won't do.
Yes, but he can show that he exists without violating free well, just as I can show you that I exist without violating yours.

it saddens me that you have not noticed Him.
I won't convert out of sympathy.

I spent a few years running away from Him

I didn't. I spent a few years clinging onto the notion that the existence of God is possible.

Agnostic is not a religion. im an agnostic Jew but still very Jewish

The only other option is hell. And, even if you think that worship of God is unentertaining, hell is the worst possible thing that you could ever choose in your life. Nothing can top that mistake. So don't make it. It's that simple.

Ok this is worth discussing since so many people seem to be using it as this holy condemnation. And alot of it very much depends on your view of hell. I know the big picture everybody conjures up is god getting mad at you, and then a trap door opens under you and you roast like a marshmallow for all eternity, but this isnt neccesarilly it. The "hellfires" they describe in the bible were actually referring to a city where they burn garbage. A bit of a metaphor. The idea I have of hell (and this is backed up by the bible albeit with some interperatation) is that hell is eternal seperation from god. It is nothing but an extentsion of what you chose in life. God doesn't "want" nonbelievers to go to hell, but it is the price of free will that there must be consequences (eternal seperation from the divine).

EDIT: And catholics have the whole purgatoiry thing going on too, comforting no?

I don't give it much attention. I sleep in on Sunday when I don't work, eat candy on the holydays, enjoy people, and just live my life. The most profound things I do are for myself. I live for myself and act in the name of myself.

You spelled WICCANS wrong

(Wikkans?)

Atheist.

Ok this is worth discussing since so many people seem to be using it as this holy condemnation. And alot of it very much depends on your view of hell. I know the big picture everybody conjures up is god getting mad at you, and then a trap door opens under you and you roast like a marshmallow for all eternity, but this isnt neccesarilly it. The "hellfires" they describe in the bible were actually referring to a city where they burn garbage. A bit of a metaphor. The idea I have of hell (and this is backed up by the bible albeit with some interperatation) is that hell is eternal seperation from god. It is nothing but an extentsion of what you chose in life. God doesn't "want" nonbelievers to go to hell, but it is the price of free will that there must be consequences (eternal seperation from the divine).

So if I act in my self interest, I will be seperated from god. That's all. I'll have my money and good looks! What's so bad with that? I want that extention.

What did the Greek gods think about this?

Agnostic is basically a fence sitter ;)

There are also agnostic/fallable atheists...who believes that certain definations of gods couldn't possibly exist due to the contridictions it poses. While other definations of gods which can't be proven, are only judged with varying levels of probabilities.

I'm a fallable atheist, and I would not hasitate in believing in a god once there are reasonable proves to believe in it. Pure faith-based believes are nothing more than self-delusions as I've explained in an ealier post on this thread.

Cheers,
Wade

http://wadejq.blogspot.com/

There are also agnostic/fallable atheists...who believes that certain definations of gods couldn't possibly exist due to the contridictions it poses. While other definations of gods which can't be proven, are only judged with varying levels of probabilities.

I'm a fallable atheist, and I would not hasitate in believing in a god once there are reasonable proves to believe in it. Pure faith-based believes are nothing more than self-delusions as I've explained in an ealier post on this thread.

Cheers,
Wade

http://wadejq.blogspot.com/

If theres anybody I really cant stand its these. I'm sorry, but you guys come off as so obsequious. "Well I'm a logical atheist and I laugh at your silly notions of theism, oh but yea if you ever prove it I want in". Its like atheism sans the backbone. Oook, to be clear we're talking about religion here, not biology class. Religion is defined by faith so looking for faith free religion is only something recommened for those looking for a non threatening comfort religion.

So if I act in my self interest, I will be seperated from god. That's all. I'll have my money and good looks! What's so bad with that? I want that extention.

What did the Greek gods think about this?

Thats the long and short of it. The punishment aspect of it is that you then see the indisputable truth.

(Currency may not be accepted, grab those travellers cheques. ;) )

firstly, you were not included. secondly, someone took offence at my calling atheism a religion. thirdly, i left judaism out... :headbang:
Neither atheist nor agnostic is a religion (the poll still gives the impression they are) and in fact, it is quite common to be both. I'm agnostic as I don't know (nor does anyone else) if gods exist and I'm atheist there is no evidence that makes gods a reasonable conclusion (and personally I find all the evidence available makes it very obvious there are no gods.)

Originally Posted by Vespucii
The stories of Jesus are not legends, in fact, I have some wonderful Roman historian accounts of Jesus's existence:
Let's see, ah
Tacitus Annales XV wrote a small amount on how the Jews rose up against the Roman Empire for Jesus, and how Jesus was executed.
Suetonius also made a similar side note, adding a piece to the effect that the Jews also claimed that Jesus performed miracles.

So, Jesus was true, and the things that He did, a number of which were well recorded by secular historians, were also prophesized many centuries before.
Tacitus refers to "Christians" not Jesus, this is a common apologist claim and is questionable. It is possible (probable according to some biblical scholars) that Tacitus and others were only reporting the claims of christians, much as a reporter states the allegations being made outside a trial.

Suetonius actualy says, "Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Emperor Claudius in 49 CE] expelled them from Rome." (Claudius 5.25.4) Which is unlikely to refer to Jesus for two obvious reasons. Chrestus is a latin translation of an actual greek name and not likely a mis spelling of Christus. More telling, the passage refers to jews being expelled from Rome due to disturbances instigated by Chrestus implying Chrestus was in Rome. Jesus was never in Rome. Further, it requires an additional error of Suetonius to consider the jews of Rome to be christians.

Overall, the evidence for Jesus and cooberation of events in the new testament is poor to non-existant and not convincing without prior belief in the mythology.

If theres anybody I really cant stand its these. I'm sorry, but you guys come off as so obsequious. "Well I'm a logical atheist and I laugh at your silly notions of theism, oh but yea if you ever prove it I want in". Its like atheism sans the backbone. Oook, to be clear we're talking about religion here, not biology class. Religion is defined by faith so looking for faith free religion is only something recommened for those looking for a non threatening comfort religion.

What you call "having a backbone", I call bloody-minded stubborness. I believe there are no gods or other supernatural entities behind it all, but I don't completely rule out the possibility that I could be wrong. If someone can prove to me beyond any doubt that gods exist I'll adjust my world view. I'd be damn stupid not to. I just don't think that that is ever going to happen.

And to everyone: Please don't take this as an open invitation to convert me. :)

Neither atheist nor agnostic is a religion (the poll still gives the impression they are) and in fact, it is quite common to be both. I'm agnostic as I don't know (nor does anyone else) if gods exist and I'm atheist there is no evidence that makes gods a reasonable conclusion (and personally I find all the evidence available makes it very obvious there are no gods.)

Well, then, you're an atheist. Agnosticism asserts that there is no evidence either way on the subject of divinity, so it's pointless to make any conclusion regarding it. If you're thinking that observable evidence indicates there is no God, then you're an atheist. A weak atheist, perhaps, but an atheist nevertheless.

I voted other in this because I think the 'lack of religion' options are too general. I am an atheist but if asked for my religious position I would say secular humanist.

You made this one public. So, fewer people will vote as they will be held to their responses. ;)
If you check it again tomorrow, I'm sure you'll have plenty of votes. Don't worry about it.
that's true, but as far as i'm concerned, anyone who considers themself part of a religion, but isn't willing to admit it to people they don't even know, is not a follower of what ever that might be.

I voted other in this because I think the 'lack of religion' options are too general. I am an atheist but if asked for my religious position I would say secular humanist.
sry, but i'm more interested in people's beliefs, or lack there-of, than i am in their code of ethics. as far as i'm concerned, an atheist is an atheist.

-Takes out shitstorm umbrella and shield.-

I am a proud, and fanatic, LeVayian Satanist. No, I am not a member of the Church of Satan, instead I follow the principles of true individuality and freedom form religious groups, and Anton activelly sponsered after the church devolved into a damnable 'sex joke' centre.

-Takes out shitstorm umbrella and shield.-

I am a proud, and fanatic, LeVayian Satanist. No, I am not a member of the Church of Satan, instead I follow the principles of true individuality and freedom form religious groups, and Anton activelly sponsered after the church devolved into a damnable 'sex joke' centre.

Not a confrontation, but just a question. Doesn't the idea of being a "proud and fanatic Levayian Satanist" sort of contradict the idea of "freedom rom religious groups?"

I guess you could say that. But everyone needs a label of some definition. How else would we know what each person's choice was accuratly otherwise? I mean when I say freedom from a religious group is an official organisation with entrance fees. A religion itself, a movement, is a big group in a way, but it's just a label for the common belief that it describes. I don't need to pay fuckin' £100 of my well earned pounds on so called 'hiers' to Anton's legacy, who have in my opinion commercialised, and whored out, satanistic principles for the pre-christian form.

I'm not atheist and I'm not really agnostic. I have my own spiritual/philosophical beliefs, but I try to keep an open mind to other people's beliefs, because I can't be certain any of them are right or wrong.

I guess you could say that. But everyone needs a label of some definition. How else would we know what each person's choice was accuratly otherwise? I mean when I say freedom from a religious group is an official organisation with entrance fees. A religion is a big group, but it's just a label nae for the common belief. I don't need to pay fuckin' £100 of my well earned pounds on so called 'hiers' to Anton's legacy, who have in my opinion commercialised, and whored out, satanistic principles for the pre-christian form.

Ah, I see. So what you're saying is that you support the ideals of the belief but that the organization, as such organizations are wont to do, has become corrupt and unsupportable? If so, heh, then I can really understand that.

This is kind of an interesting side topic, actually. It's rare to get a chance to really talk with a Satanist. Could you please tell me what some of the basic ideals you support are?

Who made up that saying? Something isn't made right by having lots of believers... in the past, plenty of wrong ideas have been supported by the majority.

"you're telling me 50 million screaming fans can't be wrong. I'm telling you 50 million screaming fans are f#@&ing MORONS!" - Mindless Self Indulgence, You'll rebel to anything (as long as it's not challenging)

www.mindlessselfindulgence.com (http://www.mindlessselfindulgence.com)

Simple, here's my satanic beliefs in points

1: God is a spiritual energy, a collective psychi that the creative mind of man has made because of his powerfull gift, and his deadly curse, of true free will and intelligence.

2: Gods are labels for this entity which is, in essence, ourselves. A Satanist can worship Jesus as a human who connected closely with god if he wanted to, but it'd contradict the point that you're worshiping Jesus himself by proxi, and not your vision of god.

3: You DON'T need to pray for hours and hours in a Temple or church to celebrate your religion. Since 'God' is your own spiritual essence, you should worship yourself by proxi

4: The best way to worship yourself to to achieve your basic needs and aims, find some leasure for yourself, and if it makes you feel better DEFINATLY do help those deserving of care (friends, family and good willed aquaintances.) These will only further help your wellbeing, and also serves to mae people return the favour.

Ah, I see. So what you're saying is that you support the ideals of the belief but that the organization, as such organizations are wont to do, has become corrupt and unsupportable? If so, heh, then I can really understand that.

This is kind of an interesting side topic, actually. It's rare to get a chance to really talk with a Satanist. Could you please tell me what some of the basic ideals you support are?
i'm also very interested...tell me EVERYTHING...lol

total non believer in a deity

I belive that you are respoinsible for your own actions - that only you can make up for the bad things you have done and that everyone is entitled to their own opinions and those opinions should not be forced down the throats of others

I have grave misgivings about many organised religeons not the least that an organisation such as christianity (especially catholism) preaches charity and giving to those who are needy and yet are one of the richest organisations in existence

I think far to many religeons degrade freedom of choice especially the freedom of choice of women and alot of major religeons are inherently sexist

I have no problem with people knocking on my door to discuss their religeon but highly resent those who will not take a polite 'no thank you I am not interested' at face value and stick around your door like leeches until you are forced to be rude to get rid of them

I admire those who are genuinely christian (or muslim/buddist/sikh etc) and live to their values without taking it to extreme and respect their choices and their beliefs but please please PLEASE dont try to convert me - I have my own moral code (which cant be that bad as I have never knowingly or willfuly broken the law including speeding on the road) I respect my fellow man and am a pacifist by nature (the only time I would kill would be to protect my son and I believe that is true of any parent) I respect the environment and nature and would never dream of foisting my belief structure and moral code on someone else - as far as I am concerned if an action is between consenting adults and doest hurt anyone else then it is ok

also I have had a hard bitching day at work and tbh if my spelling and grammar sucks tonight then, tough I am past caring :p

wow...i was expecting satanists to be, well...rather more satan-worshiping, i guess...

wow...i was expecting satanists to be, well...rather more satan-worshiping, i guess...

Satanists and devil-worshippers are very different things but commonly confused.

http://www.churchofsatan.com/home.html <--info about Church of Satan

sry, but i'm more interested in people's beliefs, or lack there-of, than i am in their code of ethics. as far as i'm concerned, an atheist is an atheist.

Well a religion is more than just beliefs. And within atheism there can be more religious beliefs than simply 'there is no God'. An atheist is as general a term as a theist.

Satan, to me, is exactly as the old Hebrew Saitan used to be. A natural, mental influence that drives you to achieve a balance (The 'Ego' in the Psychodynamic model of the mind, as based of Frued's work.) It makes you find pleasure, and then pass the good feeling from that pleasure onto others. It's kind of a controlled selfishism, and the whole Satanist devil worship crap was invented by the Catholic Church THEMSELVES. P.S. I do hope I don't have to explain the psychodynamic model... Ah sod it, here it is. This'll help you understand why we celebrate the ego.

The model is comprised of three parts, to be blunt.

The Id: Selfish, pleasure orientated part of the mind.
The Ego: Rational, realistic. Balances out the needs of the id and the Super Ego.
The Super Ego: Totally non-selfish, concerned about morals and helping others.

Simple, here's my satanic beliefs in points

1: God is a spiritual energy, a collective psychi that the creative mind of man has made because of his powerfull gift, and his deadly curse, of true free will and intelligence.

2: Gods are labels for this entity which is, in essence, ourselves. A Satanist can worship Jesus as a human who connected closely with god if he wanted to, but it'd contradict the point that you're worshiping Jesus himself by proxi, and not your vision of god.

Huh, interesting. I think I agree with this to an extent, actually. I do have some questions. If God is willed into existance by man's worship (kind of close to how I think it happens), does that God obtain an individual existance or is the concept of "god" meaningless as it is no more than an amalgimation of the will of men (no centralized essence, if you will)? Is there any sort of creation story in Satanism? Specifically, did man will himself into existance as well or is the power of will something we simply accumulated during the process of evolution?


3: You DON'T need to pray for hours and hours in a Temple or church to celebrate your religion. Since 'God' is your own spiritual essence, you should worship yourself by proxi

Agreed. Still, a peer group is always nice. It must always be remembered, though, that the only people who matter in one's personal relationship between whatever divinity one approaches are oneself and that divinity.


4: The best way to worship yourself to to achieve your basic needs and aims, find some leasure for yourself, and if it makes you feel better DEFINATLY do help those deserving of care (friends, family and good willed aquaintances.) These will only further help your wellbeing, and also serves to mae people return the favour.

Why is this the best way to worship, under the dictates of Satanism? I've always heard Satanism described as a very "selfish" religion. Not "selfish" in terms of greed, but rather in terms of Randian Objectivism. Is this true?

Satan, to me, is exactly as the old Hebrew Saitan used to be. A natural, mental influence that drives you to achieve a balance (The 'Ego' in the Psychodynamic model of the mind, as based of Frued's work.) It makes you find pleasure, and then pass the good feeling from that pleasure onto others. It's kind of a controlled selfishism, and the whole Satanist devil worship crap was invented by the Catholic Church THEMSELVES. P.S. I do hope I don't have to explain the psychodynamic model... Ah sod it, here it is. This'll help you understand why we celebrate the ego.

The model is comprised of three parts, to be blunt.

The Id: Selfish, pleasure orientated part of the mind.
The Ego: Rational, realistic. Balances out the needs of the id and the Super Ego.
The Super Ego: Totally non-selfish, concerned about morals and helping others.
that's very interesting...just for the record, I AM NOT AFFILIATED IN ANY WAY WITH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

*snip*

Well, the question I would pose to you is what does any of that have to do with the existance of divinity? I know that sounds confrontational, but please believe that it's not. I just enjoy hearing about others belief systems and how they arrived at them.

All of the problems you outlined are indeed...well, problematic. However, I would argue that they are more the problems of the religious institution in question than any sort of fault of any potential divinity. I'm interested in where you make the connection.

Specified: Jeffersonian Deist.

God exists. The rest is between me & him/her/it.

Well a religion is more than just beliefs. And within atheism there can be more religious beliefs than simply 'there is no God'. An atheist is as general a term as a theist.
still true, but i'm trying to find out what God's/Powers/Etc. people believe in, not in what way they don't believe in them.

I wasn't saying you was. I was making a point for others to see, incase they too spoke up as to where the origins of the rumour came from.. I don't hate catholics, I like them. Heck I have a JEHOVA WITNESS FRIEND! Holy crap, that's considered impossible. I just hate leaders of big organisations and all that...


BerkylvaniaII

-Huh, interesting. I think I agree with this to an extent, actually. I do have some questions. If God is willed into existance by man's worship (kind of close to how I think it happens), does that God obtain an individual existance or is the concept of "god" meaningless as it is no more than an amalgimation of the will of men (no centralized essence, if you will)? Is there any sort of creation story in Satanism? Specifically, did man will himself into existance as well or is the power of will something we simply accumulated during the process of evolution?-

I feel it evolved from a combination of chance evolution, and by the power of early mammal's psychi to explore, and use tools. Just ask yourself this question, and it might get your mind cogs working. Do other Apes believe in god?

Satan, to me, is exactly as the old Hebrew Saitan used to be. A natural, mental influence that drives you to achieve a balance (The 'Ego' in the Psychodynamic model of the mind, as based of Frued's work.) It makes you find pleasure, and then pass the good feeling from that pleasure onto others.

*snip*



So this mental influence, does it exist independently of humanity or is it engendered by it? Does it possess it's own conciousness, drives and directives or is it more like a physical law?

Pagan.

So this mental influence, does it exist independently of humanity or is it engendered by it? Does it possess it's own conciousness, drives and directives or is it more like a physical law?

I feel that natural influences are individual, seperate feelings within yourself. You know when you feel bad about stealing a pie, and yet feel so good about it when you're eating it? Two feelings conflicting, without you yourself wanting, or even activating conciously, them. The Natural forces of the mind are purely evolutionary, by making us go to greater lengths to satisfy our never ending hunger to feed our basic needs. Food (tastes), water (tastes, again), warmth (shelter) and passing on genetic material (sex and sexual fetishes.) All our civilisation originates from these needs, as well as our tastes and opinions of such variation.

I feel it evolved from a combination of chance evolution, and by the power of early mammal's psychi to explore, and use tools. Just ask yourself this question, and it might get your mind cogs working. Do other Apes believe in god?

Is that question even answerable, though, because my realm of experience is so far removed from the experience of other Apes? I guess, if I had to answer the question, I would probably say no, but qualify it by saying, "At least not as we conceptualize it." Apes, not of the human variety, don't appear to show reverence for the dead. I may be mistaken on this and, if so, someone please feel free to correct me. This reverence seems to indicate the existance of faith in a population. Around this faith, religion aggregates like a pearl forms around a grain of sand (and wouldn't it be nice if all religions, in practice, were just as beautiful). When you have religion, conceptualization of God can't be too far behind. However, all of this is extremely biased, as I can't speak for what's really going on in the mind of a species which is fundamentally different from my own.

I feel that natural influences are individual, seperate feelings within yourself. You know when you feel bad about stealing a pie, and yet feel so good about it when you're eating it? Two feelings conflicting, without you yourself wanting, or even activating conciously, them. The Natural forces of the mind are purely evolutionary, by making us go to greater lengths to satisfy our never ending hunger to feed our basic needs. Food (tastes), water (tastes, again), warmth (shelter) and passing on genetic material (sex and sexual fetishes.) All our civilisation originates from these needs, as well as our tastes and opinions of such variation.

So are you saying that Man creates his own Gods and that God is just another name for individual value structure?

[QUOTE=BerkylvaniaII]Apes, not of the human variety, don't appear to show reverence for the dead.QUOTE]


I want you to hold that thought for a moment. Have you ever seen the Discovery channel of late? One of the Animal Planet's top shows about apes actually detailed that two Gorrilas were partners in the wild. One of them, sadly, died. You know what happened? The female stayed, comforting the dead body of her mate as if trying to wake him up. She didn't leave untill the park's keepers came in and anctually carried the body off. Just to give you one example. However, it is actually rather rare, so we can't generalise this sense of reverance to all apes.

So are you saying that Man creates his own Gods and that God is just another name for individual value structure?

In a word... Yes. It's part of my beliefs, that man creates his own gods as what fits into his own morals.

God is everywhere. Even the things that you said made you reject Him are in His posession. If you look around you, even if you just read a science book from seventh grade, for crying out loud, the power and beauty of the universe whispers of something majestic, something intelligent, behind it all. You know that, I'm sure, for yourself. Isn't there something that you feel you are missing? Something that you feel is unattainable but that you want so dearly? Something intangible that you regardless know will make you content? You must. Even I did, even back in Elementary school.

I sometimes get that feeling, but I see it as a proof that the universe itself is screwed up(read Douglas Addams). If you look at anything that's advanced, it usually breaks down. The human body develops cancer, computers crash, and the unvierse... man, with something that large, it's bound to be patchwork and bugs all over. I have a suspicion that people who are insane has just had that nice, comforting veil protecting them from the real truth about the universe removed.

Anyhow, I consider myself an atheist, partly becasue that I don't want to join any organistaion that has participated in mass-murder, etnical cleansing or/and war.

ADDED:
I do belive that religion has helped us as well. Altough millions of people has died bacuase of it, it has organized and motivated(by threats and carrots) humans in a way few other things has. But as it also damages our multinational society, I think we would be better off if it disappeared.

I want you to hold that thought for a moment. Have you ever seen the Discovery channel of late? One of the Animal Planet's top shows about apes actually detailed that two Gorrilas were partners in the wild. One of them, sadly, died. You know what happened? The female stayed, comforting the dead body of her mate as if trying to wake him up. She didn't leave untill the park's keepers came in and anctually carried the body off. Just to give you one example. However, it is actually rather rare, so we can't generalise this sense of reverance to all apes.

Well, as I said, I'm not an expert on the subject of Ape behavior. Still, though, I might argue that simply staying by the body of a dead mate doesn't show an understanding of death or a conceptualization of faith, at least to my perspective. If the mate had tried to bury the corpse or made some sort of ritualistic showing about the body, I would call that unquestionable proof that a faith/religion/God construct was taking effect.

Again, though, I could be wrong because I don't know what the mate was thinking and, therefore, it's completely possible I would miss any such ritual or observance.

Anyhow, I consider myself an atheist, partly becasue that I don't want to join any organistaion that has participated in mass-murder, etnical cleansing or/and war.


Well, to be fair, you've pretty much just limited yourself out of any human institution, society or culture on the planet.

Indeed. We shall, as they say, never know. Not unless someone finds a way to intercommunicate between species. Anyways, as much as I love these philosiphical debates about religion and spirituality, I have an NS war to participate in, two to be exact.. Adios.

I believe we are all a small piece of god. A small bit of the whole trying to figure everything out.

Well, to be fair, you've pretty much just limited yourself out of any human institution, society or culture on the planet.

You're right :(
That's us humans. At least I wan't my conscious reasonably clean, although I, just by living for 16 years, has casued the deaths of poor people all over the world...
Do we humans suck or what?

A morally and intellectually superior agnostic. Why? Because you can't prove I'm wrong.

Well, the question I would pose to you is what does any of that have to do with the existance of divinity? I know that sounds confrontational, but please believe that it's not. I just enjoy hearing about others belief systems and how they arrived at them.

All of the problems you outlined are indeed...well, problematic. However, I would argue that they are more the problems of the religious institution in question than any sort of fault of any potential divinity. I'm interested in where you make the connection.


ok well this where I DO become a tad confrontational

I feel that in alot of cases (although not all) a deity is used as a sap to an individuals guilty conscionce (damn I can NEVER spell that word!) and as an excuse to hide the darker side of peoples natures

for example I think alot of people instead of saying 'I belive that abortion is wrong because it makes me feel uncomfortable and I think that the value of a human life is worth more consideration than it is given' they use the old 'GOD say's it is wrong and therefore it must be' because it is easier and means they dont have to think about a situation they feel is distasteful and uncomfortable.

I think that religeon is used as a cushion as well as an excuse to avoid questioning potentially uncomfortable situations and thought i.e 'I have a belief system that protects me from thinking objectively about a situation so therefore I can be complacent and just rely on that belief system to answer all those embarrassing and uncomfortable questions'

the idea of your 'sins' being forgiven is also a way of avoiding a moral obligation to put right that which you have made wrong and gives some individuals a cop out clause 'oh its ok to do something wrong after all GOD loves me and will forgive me when I enter the kingdom of heaven'

I also think that organised religeon is constricting and discourages free thinking by dictating the questioning mind of mankind

the world is a place of wonders to be explored and questioned - to be discovered and understood and I feel 'blind' faith gets in the way of that fairly often


I would go on but my darling 4 year old deserves my time at the moment and it is my distinct pleasure to give him my time

(in other words I am off to be a 4 year old kid again myself and oh boy does it feel GOOD! :D )

ok well this where I DO become a tad confrontational

Well, do what you need to, but just keep it civil and everything will be fine. :)


I feel that in alot of cases (although not all) a deity is used as a sap to an individuals guilty conscionce (damn I can NEVER spell that word!) and as an excuse to hide the darker side of peoples natures

for example I think alot of people instead of saying 'I belive that abortion is wrong because it makes me feel uncomfortable and I think that the value of a human life is worth more consideration than it is given' they use the old 'GOD say's it is wrong and therefore it must be' because it is easier and means they dont have to think about a situation they feel is distasteful and uncomfortable.

I think that religeon is used as a cushion as well as an excuse to avoid questioning potentially uncomfortable situations and thought i.e 'I have a belief system that protects me from thinking objectively about a situation so therefore I can be complacent and just rely on that belief system to answer all those embarrassing and uncomfortable questions'


I would be inclined to agree with you. However, that doesn't really answer the question. If a person chooses to use divinity as a shield, then the fault lies in that person, not in the divinity. This is a fault of mankind, not of divinity. It presents an excellent reason to maintain a healthy skepticism about your fellow man, but nothing to support a denial of divinity.


the idea of your 'sins' being forgiven is also a way of avoiding a moral obligation to put right that which you have made wrong and gives some individuals a cop out clause 'oh its ok to do something wrong after all GOD loves me and will forgive me when I enter the kingdom of heaven'

Well, true, that does provide a cop out. However, it can be argued from a theological standpoint that Heaven is by no means assured if you're only paying lip-service to forgiveness.


I also think that organised religeon is constricting and discourages free thinking by dictating the questioning mind of mankind

the world is a place of wonders to be explored and questioned - to be discovered and understood and I feel 'blind' faith gets in the way of that fairly often

Again, I would agree with that. One of those wonders, though, it the myriad permutations and subtle power of human belief.


I would go on but my darling 4 year old deserves my time at the moment and it is my distinct pleasure to give him my time

(in other words I am off to be a 4 year old kid again myself and oh boy does it feel GOOD! :D )

Heh, four year olds always should come first.

i hafta go now, if those who are seeking would telegram me, i would greatly appreciate it. God bless you all.

Well, do what you need to, but just keep it civil and everything will be fine. :).

I usually am fairly civil - one of my downfalls maybe ;)


I would be inclined to agree with you. However, that doesn't really answer the question. If a person chooses to use divinity as a shield, then the fault lies in that person, not in the divinity. This is a fault of mankind, not of divinity. It presents an excellent reason to maintain a healthy skepticism about your fellow man, but nothing to support a denial of divinity.

quie true but common - I had a gorgeous four year old to play trains with and a crappy day at work to put behind me I was hardly going to get too in depth, however said child is now peacefully sleeping (in MY BED DAMMIT!) and I have a little time to debate here ;)

my intrinsic denial of a divine body (or bodies) is lack of proof - I believe that everyone has a cause and an effect and that positive things happen because you make them (or allow them) to happen and negative things happen because either you allow them to or because other people make them happen to you - I do not believe there is someone sat in a heavenly body making these things happen I think it is either us or nature making them happen and having a direct influence on the environment (either the pysical environment or the societal enveronment) around us


Well, true, that does provide a cop out. However, it can be argued from a theological standpoint that Heaven is by no means assured if you're only paying lip-service to forgiveness.

aha but isn't it said somewhere in the bible that those who have sinned shall enter the kingdom of heaven first? sorry not being a believer I can't quot ethe exact passage to you and even if I were to be honest I have better things to do with my life than either google or memorise passages from a text that is merely an interpretation of possible evens that happend a long long time before the text's were written (sly dig there ;) )



Again, I would agree with that. One of those wonders, though, it the myriad permutations and subtle power of human belief.

absolutely! which is why I respect the right for everyone to their own belief systems and structures - just because I dont believe the same things does not make me right or them wrong - it just makes us different and diversity is another of the wonders of the known universe!



Heh, four year olds always should come first.


especially when they are as cute as this one!

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y124/morteee/Cam4.jpg


unashamed motherly pride session warning ;)

especially when they are as cute as this one!

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y124/morteee/Cam4.jpg


unashamed motherly pride session warning ;)
Can you please put the warning FIRST :)

It's technically incorrect to offer Mahayana Buddhists that option without also allowing us to choose atheist.

We are. ;)

I'm a diest

You spelled WICCANS wrong

Thank you. It is indeed Wiccan. I personally think it would have been easier to just use the term "pagan" because it is a nice umbrella term. Besides, there's mysticism inside Christianity, as well. (http://www.answers.com/topic/mysticism)

i dont know if anyone already said this or not,but "wikken" is actually spelled Wiccan,and Isis wanted me to make sure you understood that. :)


now,i believe you will all get the answers you want...eventually,because we keep coming back to flesh until our job here is done. you cant get everything done in one lifetime. do you ride the roller coaster one time and then go home?
no. the universe is a complex place with many different realities. when you get done with your work on earth,you move on and continue your work in another dimension. eventually,when you have gained enough knowledge,power,and balance,you can choose to return to the source,or return to flesh as a Great Teacher. think Jesus,Budha,Mozart,Einstein,basically anyone who has improved the human race. you can also travel to other dimensions and aid other creatures as well.
this is prolly what we would call a guardian spirit(angel).

We need the enlightenment of the holy spirit because by our own reason we are unable to know God or the things He has said and done in the Bible. Your questioning of God is sickening. All I see are threads about, "Flaws in Christianity", "God doesn't exist!". Why concentrate so heavily on Christianity when there are countless other religions you could yell about?


The only reason people go on about Christianity so much of the time is that to most people it's the only religion that poses a serious threat to their atheism/agnosticism...

therefore, they feel they must prove it wrong, cause if they don't then it will require a lot of serious thinking and changes in the life they lead...

And just as a pleasant reminder from another Christian, the world's a nicer place if you don't swear at people who believe different things to you... ;)

aha but isn't it said somewhere in the bible that those who have sinned shall enter the kingdom of heaven first? sorry not being a believer I can't quot ethe exact passage to you and even if I were to be honest I have better things to do with my life than either google or memorise passages from a text that is merely an interpretation of possible evens that happend a long long time before the text's were written (sly dig there )

u've misread the passage. Jesus said to the pharisees that "Prostitutes and tax collectors are entering the kingdom of heaven before you", to point out that i righteous man who does not want forgiveness is not so Holy as an unrighteous person who does.

Catholic by birth, atheist by choice.

You assume "none" means "seeking", which is tricky. Me, for example, I'm an atheistic (deconstructionist) non-cognitivist, and no, those are not just big words, they lead me to the conclusion that God is irrelevant, which I'm guessing is a rare standpoint.

I like to think that I'm a little bit of everything; I have my doubts about each religion, but respect and often adhere to some of the principles of some of them. I think I'm part atheist, part Bhuddist, part agnostic, part Jewish, and part Mystic. I confuse myself...

It's pretty disappointing that some people who posted in this thread had to get disrespectful. I figured that since many religions stress respect for others, this thread would stay rather peaceful, but I guess the results reflect the way humanity tends to act. I think before posting we should be a little more empathetic and introspective to make sure we're making educated, meaningful remarks. Even though you're anonymous and this is the internet, maybe, if you truely respect your religion, you should show it.

I'm a Zen Buddhist, myself. Hopefully you all can respect that, because I surely respect your ideas.

I'm Zoroastrian.

Asatru

I'm atheist. When I find a religion that isn't corrupt, unfounded, or entirely based on faith, maybe I'll change my ways.

None, but I'm not an atheist. I just am not able to join any christian church as of yet.

other. categorize my nuts my nuts biotch!

I'm atheist. When I find a religion that isn't corrupt, unfounded, or entirely based on faith, maybe I'll change my ways.
theres some grear stuff in the Tao.
http://www.taoism.net/enter.htm has a good partial but free stanslation, as well as some other writings.
Although it may not qualify as a full on religion, but neither do most forms of buddhism.

4) Bhuddists (5.92%)
5) Atheists (apparantly, it's a religion; non-religious is a different part) (2.36%)

I think if the buddhists can have a religion without a god the athiests deserve the same.