NationStates Jolt Archive

It has recently ocurred to me that the oath of allegiance that is recited daily throughout public schools in the US is remarkably similar to daily prayers recited throughout faith-based schools (across the entire world).

I know the oath is innocent enough, but what is the impact of its recitation every day throughout a pupils early life?

Anti-religious arguments (NOT anti-God) often criticise spiritual organisations for indoctrinating the young through the use of ritualised prayers that enforce a sense of moral/divine existence through rote, and not by experience.

It seems to me that the oath of alleigance creates a similar effect, this time creating a snese of moral/divine superioirty of the United States of America. Strange for a country that so advocates the separation of the secular and the spiritual.

Hence the vast majority of American's are so defensive about their country when subjected to criticsim, even when the rational argument might suggest that America is in the wrong... and there remains a sense that the US is a force of GOOD within the minds of American's, despite the glaringly obvious fact that the US is just a state, set-up, maintained and organised by falliable human beings.

Is the oath, no doubt set-up as a pure and innocent proclomation of some very good values, inadvertently indoctrinating the youth of America into state-servitude, ensuring that public dissent, particularly with the Fedeal institutions, is seen as unpatriotic. Obviously one should not cite the actions or beliefs of teenagers as this is a period of rebellion which inevitably fazes out into one of social conformity.

Any thoughts...?

(This isnt America-bashing, before you say it).

I'm anti-religious and anti-patriotism. Both are damaging.

Patriotism is a good thing. Look at it like this-given the fact that Americans will be any religion, shouldnt there be something to bind us together? If that Student is Jewish, I'm Catholic and Bill over there is Wiccan, shouldnt we have some bond together? The pledge of is a way of saying we are all one nation and people. If you dont want to say you are part of America, indeed an American, then why are you living in America?

Whilst the US constitution assures both freedom of, and from, religion, it's pretty obvious the Founding Fathers meant freedom of Christian religion. Not that they were racists or bigots or anything, it's just 'You can have any religion you want as long as it's Christianity' and the concept of swearing an oath before anyone / thing other than God just never occurred to them. A state with no fixed head of state has very little to actually declare allegiance either to, or by, but that probably didn't occur either, and what they wrote and their intended interpretation must've made perfect sense at the time, even if it seems a little confused to us now.

Patriotism is a good thing. Look at it like this-given the fact that Americans will be any religion, shouldnt there be something to bind us together? If that Student is Jewish, I'm Catholic and Bill over there is Wiccan, shouldnt we have some bond together? The pledge of is a way of saying we are all one nation and people. If you dont want to say you are part of America, indeed an American, then why are you living in America?

It is not that I am attacking patriotism. I am just questioning the impact the oath has on the minds of those subjected to it. To an adult a daily intonation of a set of words is almost purely symbolic - it has a very minor impact on your character or personality. To a child everything is massively important in how you turn out, and the oath must dramatically shape a child's view of the state - placing it on an undeserved pedestal of moral authority and wisdom, despite the fact that was created and is governed by falliable, and occasionally corrupt, humans.

Maybe it is a good bonding agent...

But it worries me that the average citizen is so willing to testify to the GOOD of the US and its institutions. Criticism of the US seems to be rubbished by the vast majority of the population any time it occurs, and yet America itself is a product of constructive criticism (the Enlightenment - anger against absolute monarchy). Criticism is essential for insight, and insight is essential for progress.

Whilst the US constitution assures both freedom of, and from, religion, it's pretty obvious the Founding Fathers meant freedom of Christian religion.
No, it isn't obvious.
I don't remember it saying 'freedom of Christianity', so it's not obvious from the Constitution alone. And if I look at outside context, such as many of the Founding Fathers not being Christian, I am forced to assume that they did mean freedom of religion.

Quick question-when was the Pledge started? I cant remember but I think it would be interesting to know. How many generations have said it? And what has changed during those past generations? For example, The 60's was a time of chaotic change in America: The war, the black movement, the womens movement ect. Some of those things may have brought down or seriously weakend other countries, however America recovered and thrived. Now I dont think a simple oath is the cause of this, but the mentality of "We are Americans" that the oath signifies is what hold the US together. Now maybe things like the Pledge are a form of mild brainwashing, causing loyalty to the nation, but I dont think it can be said it is a total blind loyalty.

Whilst the US constitution assures both freedom of, and from, religion, it's pretty obvious the Founding Fathers meant freedom of Christian religion. Not that they were racists or bigots or anything, it's just 'You can have any religion you want as long as it's Christianity' and the concept of swearing an oath before anyone / thing other than God just never occurred to them. A state with no fixed head of state has very little to actually declare allegiance either to, or by, but that probably didn't occur either, and what they wrote and their intended interpretation must've made perfect sense at the time, even if it seems a little confused to us now.
'Cept they didn't write the Pledge. The "under god" bit came in near the 1960's.


Besides, those founding fathers so revered did indeed know what they were doing when they wrote the first amendment. They intended it to mean that the US wasn't christian, no if and or buts. See the Treaty of Tripoli, approved by the senate without a single dissenting vote, in the 1780's which states that the US isn't christian, nor was it founded upon christian ideals.

Quick question-when was the Pledge started? I cant remember but I think it would be interesting to know. How many generations have said it? And what has changed during those past generations? For example, The 60's was a time of chaotic change in America: The war, the black movement, the womens movement ect. Some of those things may have brought down or seriously weakend other countries, however America recovered and thrived. Now I dont think a simple oath is the cause of this, but the mentality of "We are Americans" that the oath signifies is what hold the US together. Now maybe things like the Pledge are a form of mild brainwashing, causing loyalty to the nation, but I dont think it can be said it is a total blind loyalty.


A good example of what I am talking about.

Give me an example of a country that has been brought down by "The war, the black movement, the womens movement". Indeed name a country that has been brought down by any social movement,

It is the fact that you attribute American success to the ideal of America that I'd see as an example of the 'mild brainwashing' of Americans.

America isnt special. But I think the oath ensures that Americans believe that it is (the rest of the world unfortunately doesnt any more)... meaning that American actions, or goals, are sacrosanct.

Perhaps born of the Cold War ideology...

The Pledge appeared in a vastly different form in the late 1890's in a magazine for boys. "to the flag of The United States of America" replaced "my flag" by act of Congress. During the Cold War, "under God" was tacked on by Eisenhower to make it sound less like a Communist loyalty oath.

Ironically, the original plege was written by an agnostic socialist.

Patriotism is a good thing.

What does patriotism mean? If it means what I think it does, it's a bad thing. Many people here say the country I'm in is the best in the world. What rubbish! But it could be the best in the world is people got off their arses and started improving it. Patriotism is a form of irrational thinking, and is easilly manipulated to nasty ends, for example war. It was mentioned that people in a country need a bond. Well why not one based on reality? For example - "We all want to live an enjoyable life."

im not fond of the plege of allegiance.

not so much that i wont say it in public when everyone else does, out of respect for their feelings and to not make a fuss, but enough that i wont bother saying it when no one else cares either.

what has always bothered me is the need to say it every school day. WHY? why do we have to pledge ourselves to a piece of cloth every damned day? does it wear off overnight? what happens over the weekend? are we less patriotic on monday morning because of the length of time since we pledged? what about summer vacation? do we become treasonous by the time august rolls around?

uh, i find the need to force kids to say the pledge every day to be a bit offensive. i would agree that its mind control but we all know it isnt. or at least that it doesnt work. no one becomes a brownshirt fanatic because they said the pledge every day.

there is nothing wrong with being patriotic. no reason to not think your country is the best on earth. who doesnt think that no matter where they live? its a political survival strategy. if we all didnt care about our various countries they would be overrun by our enemies.

In other words you mean it brainwashes "pupils"? My thoughts exactly, which is why I have phased out of it since 3 years ago in 6th grade...sometimes now I dont even stand up. Few question it, but everyone else gets up so mindlessly...its freaky...probably just condition, but still...

IIRC there are a couple of Religions in the US that believe that the Pledge IS a prayer and forbid their children to say it. (Jahovah" Witnesses and one other I think.) There was a court case that was brought by the ACLU when some students were censured for not Pledging. (Cat Tribe and Lacodeamon can argue about it... ;) )

The upshot doctrinally is, that they believe that their allegiance is first and only to God, and that Pledging allegiance to a secular authority is a Sin.

I see this oath of allegiance as extremely Statist, imagine swearing your life and allegiance to a single entity. Too Orwellian for my tastes.

Quick question-when was the Pledge started? I cant remember but I think it would be interesting to know. How many generations have said it? And what has changed during those past generations? For example, The 60's was a time of chaotic change in America: The war, the black movement, the womens movement ect. Some of those things may have brought down or seriously weakend other countries, however America recovered and thrived. Now I dont think a simple oath is the cause of this, but the mentality of "We are Americans" that the oath signifies is what hold the US together. Now maybe things like the Pledge are a form of mild brainwashing, causing loyalty to the nation, but I dont think it can be said it is a total blind loyalty.
One of the World's Fairs around 1900. An organizer decided it would be neat if all American school children said an oath. As stated earlier, the "Under God" bit was added against communism.

I don't say it anymore, too totalitarian.

Rote is a controlled alternative to thought.

A good example of what I am talking about.

Give me an example of a country that has been brought down by "The war, the black movement, the womens movement". Indeed name a country that has been brought down by any social movement,

It is the fact that you attribute American success to the ideal of America that I'd see as an example of the 'mild brainwashing' of Americans.

America isnt special. But I think the oath ensures that Americans believe that it is (the rest of the world unfortunately doesnt any more)... meaning that American actions, or goals, are sacrosanct.

Perhaps born of the Cold War ideology...

You could say that any revolution is born out of society, the ills that affect it. The Vietnam War, the black movement, the women's movement were not powerful enough due to the lack of collective grievance it engendered. But the success of the French, American or Russian revolution, (among others), are social movements that brought down the previous country's government due to the powerful grievances of the people and/or lack of power and/or control the previous government had.

But again is could you argue that the British national Anthem is nothing more than "mild brainwashing" for the continued role of the monarchy, i.e. "God Save the Queen" etc? We just don't say it as much....except for every national event and/or national sports event.

I would agree that the pledge of allegiance may encourage this superiority belief though. But then I used to say it every day when I was in the States, but then I like Americans....have I been affected in some subconscious way I wonder…..

I've always wondered why we're pledging allegiance to the flag of all things. Wouldn't it make more sense to pledge to the US Constitution and the freedoms it enshrines?

Of course I've also have now noticed how much America wraps itself in the flag and anthem. At my public school in Japan, the Japanese flag is displayed only during graduation and opening ceremony. The anthem, Kimigayo, is also sung only during those times and it's a major controversy that it is done so.

I think it's brainwashing like in the Hitler Youth. Also, since those are minors they're not even bound to the oath, so what's the point? Brainwashing.

I think the only other country doing such things is North Korea.

(On the note of the Japanee flag, Japan is a different thing. The Hinomaru has been around prior to WW2, when you look at the Sengoku Jidai you see feudal lords using it in their banners, the Imperial Japanese Army that crushed the Satsuma Rebellion in the 1870s also used it, so all the riot over its connection to the pre-WW2 Japanese aggression is somewhat stupid and lacks any historical relevance. I have no problems with it, and I'm of Chinese origin. If we go by that then the French Tricolore or the British Union Jack are also signs of terror, colonialism, oppression and war mongering, historically of course)

But again is could you argue that the British national Anthem is nothing more than "mild brainwashing" for the continued role of the monarchy, i.e. "God Save the Queen" etc? We just don't say it as much....except for every national event and/or national sports event.

I would agree that the pledge of allegiance may encourage this superiority belief though. But then I used to say it every day when I was in the States, but then I like Americans....have I been affected in some subconscious way I wonder…..
To me it seems a bit strange to recite the pledge of allegiance or sing the national anthem every day. Around here (Finland) we sing the anthem anly on special occations like independence day and sporting events and as far as I knw we don't even have a pledge of allegiance.

It is a form of brainwashing, albeit an ineffective one. But I fail to see how it has any similarity whatsoever to prayer.

Talking of flags I heard that you cannot raise a non-American state flag in the US without having a US flag within 7ft.

Again, can be intepreted as a patriotic law, or as a state propaganda machine of excellent design.

The US bolsheviks would be proud...

Talking of flags I heard that you cannot raise a non-American state flag in the US without having a US flag within 7ft.

Again, can be intepreted as a patriotic law, or as a state propaganda machine of excellent design.

The US bolsheviks would be proud...

You can as an individual. Its the government that cannot.

So, say you have a business in California and you feel like having only the California flag on display, you are free to do so. But if you also have a day job as manager of the Department of Motor Vehicles, you cannot legally have your employees at the DMV put up the California flag by its self. The government doesnt care how you run your business when it comes to having flags on display, they only care how the government offices are run in regards to this.

I don't think there are many countries that allow foreign flags to be flown without the national flag being flown a bit higher. Why? Because flying a flag is akin to claiming territory.

With regards to the pledge of allegiance, I find it freaky. Not only that, I find it freaky that they have american flags in every single classroom.

I also find it freaky that a lot of danes fly their flag daily, but I often don't find too much importance being put into that. Still, I won't condone it. Ever.

I smell patriotism and I hate patriotism for what it has done. I don't care if it's american, japanese, dutch or anything else for that matter, it always does more harm than good.

Pah! When I went to an American highschool I surely did NOT pledge allegiance to anything!

And what kind of pledge ends with "...please be seated." anyway?