NationStates Jolt Archive

Quick Question:

IS witchcraft is evil to u?

Quick Question:

IS witchcraft evil to you?
No.

IS witchcraft is evil to u?Urr... I suppose you mean, "Do you think witchcraft is evil?"

Quick Question:

IS witchcraft is evil to u?
no but necromancy is kinda freaky

No, witchcraft has always been very pleasant to me. It invited me for tea the other day and served the most delightful little cookies.

Now, David Copperfield, on the other hand, is simply dreadful. He always talks about people behind their back and the three bean casserole he brought to the annual interfaith pot luck was...well, I'll just be honest, it was...store bought! He didn't even take it out of the aluminum pan.

No. Why would it be?

Urr... I suppose you mean, "Do you think witchcraft is evil?"
or perhaps have you ever personally been harmed by witchcraft... either by its direct or side effects.

No, witchcraft has always been very pleasant to me. It invited me for tea the other day and served the most delightful little cookies.

Now, David Copperfield, on the other hand, is simply dreadful. He always talks about people behind their back and the three bean casserole he brought to the annual interfaith pot luck was...well, I'll just be honest, it was...store bought! He didn't even take it out of the aluminum pan.
that's cuz he's a necromancer(he uses dead puppies to power his magic... oh sure he claims they were euthanized at various pounds and human societies but everyone knows there is more power if you do the deed yourself, either spilling the blood or otherwise)

No but I don't like it.

Quick Question:

IS witchcraft is evil to u?
Not so much evil as utterly retarded.

Witch craft tends to involve satanic stuff and magic, so evil it is. Witch craft is an evil form of magic often used to inflict harm. If you are using magic and what not and it is actually helpful, you call that witchcraft?

or perhaps have you ever personally been harmed by witchcraft... either by its direct or side effects.
Got hit by a fireball once.

that's cuz he's a necromancer(he uses dead puppies to power his magic... oh sure he claims they were euthanized at various pounds and human societies but everyone knows there is more power if you do the deed yourself, either spilling the blood or otherwise)

Oh, I know. Now, I'm not one to tell tales out of school, but I was having lunch with Ba'hai just the other day and he told me the most horrible thing about Mr. Copperfield and his necromancy. I shouldn't say, but, well, it seems that Mr. Copperfield and necromancy invited that nice couple, Catholicism and Judism, over for a dinner party last week. Well, everything seemed to be on the up and up, until the main course, which was almond-encrusted sea bass with leek sauce. Well, Catholicism was so taken with the recipe that it begged and begged for the recipe, so necromancy gave it to him. Here's the thing, it seems necromancy claimed that boiling the leeks in equal parts of half and half as well as 1% milk was the secret and he claimed that he thought it up! Everyone knows perfectly good and well that is how Islam has been serving that dish for generations. Couldn't you just die!?! I mean, really, Ba'hai said Islam was just beside herself when she heard. Anyway, I can tell you exactly who will be getting store bought preserves from me for Christmas this year, make no mistake.

Got hit by a fireball once.

i assume since we're having this conversation you made your savings throw and only took half damage.

Nothing is evil to me. Just because it might contradict my personal beliefs, it does not mean it is evil or not. I may disagree, but who is to say I am right?

i assume since we're having this conversation you made your savings throw and only took half damage.
Wouldn't matter. Had about 100 hp at the time.

Oh, I know. Now, I'm not one to tell tales out of school, but I was having lunch with Ba'hai just the other day and he told me the most horrible thing about Mr. Copperfield and his necromancy. I shouldn't say, but, well, it seems that Mr. Copperfield and necromancy invited that nice couple, Catholicism and Judism, over for a dinner party last week. Well, everything seemed to be on the up and up, until the main course, which was almond-encrusted sea bass with leek sauce. Well, Catholicism was so taken with the recipe that it begged and begged for the recipe, so necromancy gave it to him. Here's the thing, it seems necromancy claimed that boiling the leeks in equal parts of half and half as well as 1% milk was the secret and he claimed that he thought it up! Everyone knows perfectly good and well that is how Islam has been serving that dish for generations. Couldn't you just die!?! I mean, really, Ba'hai said Islam was just beside herself when she heard. Anyway, I can tell you exactly who will be getting store bought preserves from me for Christmas this year, make no mistake.

i'd assume necromancy got it from the satanists who begged it off the yezidi(i don't think the yezidi especially like them, but they have money and they are always fawning over the peacock angel so, what a small and relatively poor mystery cult to do), who claim they were doing it and everything else while the muslims were still worshipping graven images in central arabia.

that's cuz he's a necromancer(he uses dead puppies to power his magic... oh sure he claims they were euthanized at various pounds and human societies but everyone knows there is more power if you do the deed yourself, either spilling the blood or otherwise)

Obviously I must have read the expurgated version of Dickens, because I remember none of this.

Witch craft tends to involve satanic stuff and magic, so evil it is. Witch craft is an evil form of magic often used to inflict harm. If you are using magic and what not and it is actually helpful, you call that witchcraft?

Uhh..no. Witchcraft is the use of Magick for various means. How you choose to use it decides whether YOU are good,or evil. The ability/source itself is neither. Magick/witchcraft is like a knife. You can use a knife to kill someone, or operate on a life threatening tumor,and heal someone. It's all in the intent.

Wouldn't matter. Had about 100 hp at the time.geez remind me not to get sassy with you in the local grog shop conan.

Obviously I must have read the expurgated version of Dickens, because I remember none of this.
shylock in oliver twist was quite adept at raising golems as well, but it was cut from modern versions for fear it would be seen as antisemetic.

Obviously I must have read the expurgated version of Dickens, because I remember none of this.

No no, not THAT David Copperfield, the other one. The orange one.

Sorta...

*stirrng cauldron*
No, it's not evil. I believe in several things but to conclude that I'm a witch is actually less practical than saying I'm a Moon child, or an Earthen Child. Religion of any kind can be used evilly but that's a person(s) doing, not the religion.
Toad soup, anyone?
LOL

*stirrng cauldron*
No, it's not evil. I believe in several things but to conclude that I'm a witch is actually less practical than saying I'm a Moon child, or an Earthen Child. Religion of any kind can be used evilly but that's a person(s) doing, not the religion.
Toad soup, anyone?
LOL
just so long as none of your recipes involve menstral blood, that one kinda icky wicca thingie.

Magic is neither good nor evil, being fictional it has no morals.

Magic is neither good nor evil, being fictional it has no morals.

Did you just call fiction immoral? Robert Jordan is gonna be piiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiisssssssssssseeeeeeeeeeeeeed!

no but necromancy is kinda freaky
Hey! I resent that! *Points to sig*

Wouldn't matter. Had about 100 hp at the time.
100 hp? That's it? Well, in that case...


Eat meteor storm+Summon Monster IX+hide behind the lvl 20 brb and lvl 20 ftr :D

Uhh..no. Witchcraft is the use of Magick for various means. How you choose to use it decides whether YOU are good,or evil. The ability/source itself is neither. Magick/witchcraft is like a knife. You can use a knife to kill someone, or operate on a life threatening tumor,and heal someone. It's all in the intent.

Thank you. Isn't it amazing that when a Xian uses magick it's a miracle, but when a Witch uses magick, it's evil?

Thank you. Isn't it amazing that when a Xian uses magick it's a miracle, but when a Witch uses magick, it's evil?
And when a necromancer uses magic (the k is a superflous touch by those envious of those with the spark, but really only vain and a mark of ignorance, akin to not knowing how many books are in Lumeric's Six) is is disgusting for some reason - as though death was unnatural and revolting, rather than a core part of life and existance.

And when a necromancer uses magic (the k is a superflous touch by those envious of those with the spark, but really only vain and a mark of ignorance, akin to not knowing how many books are in Lumeric's Six) is is disgusting for some reason - as though death was unnatural and revolting, rather than a core part of life and existance.

Hmmm, since I am envious of no one...

I use a "k" to distinguish between the magick which is real vs. that such as the work of illusionists like Lance Burton and David Blane.

Not so much evil as utterly retarded.
:)

Hmmm, since I am envious of no one...

I use a "k" to distinguish between the magick which is real vs. that such as the work of illusionists like Lance Burton and David Blane.
Really, in the Order at least we label it the other way around (and we don't call them illusionists, as illusion is a valid form of magic, but rather psuedo-illusionists). I rather like that form of psuedo-illusion, by the way; it is interesting to see how they can appear magical through entirely mundane means.

Did you just call fiction immoral? Robert Jordan is gonna be piiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiisssssssssssseeeeeeeeeeeeeed!

Amoral, not immoral.

Thank you. Isn't it amazing that when a Xian uses magick it's a miracle, but when a Witch uses magick, it's evil?

Oh no, the e Xtians will oppress us all. :rolleyes:

Oh no, the e Xtians will oppress us all. :rolleyes:
Not oppression so much as a ridiculous double standard and kind of stupid, really :D

"Isn't it amazing that when a Xian uses magick it's a miracle, but when a Witch uses magick, it's evil?"

Well, I think It all depends on where your getting your power from.
If you view it in that light, then it's not a double standard. after all, if you suddenly got rich the government might be happy to tax you, or happy to put you in jail, depending on where you got your money from. And That's certainly not a double standard.

As it harms none...

As it harms none...

Here's the trick: Christians think that inaction is harmful.

"If we don't burn these witches and atheists, they'll keep people from going to heaven!"

Just like that stupid golden rule

"If I were a non-Christian, I'd want my life threatened and my limbs severed and my body enslaved to build missions until I repented and found the merciful lord so he wouldn't send me to hell!"

The real rule: Do whatever you want so long as there's no -proven- harm to come of it.

Really, in the Order at least we label it the other way around (and we don't call them illusionists, as illusion is a valid form of magic, but rather psuedo-illusionists). I rather like that form of psuedo-illusion, by the way; it is interesting to see how they can appear magical through entirely mundane means.
Illusion as magick is glamour
Illusion as the mist and mirrors is mesmerisation
illusion is merely the cloaking of the truth
pseudo-illusion is reduntant as it is the equivalent of saying a fake replica

Here's the trick: Christians think that inaction is harmful.

"If we don't burn these witches and atheists, they'll keep people from going to heaven!"

Just like that stupid golden rule

"If I were a non-Christian, I'd want my life threatened and my limbs severed and my body enslaved to build missions until I repented and found the merciful lord so he wouldn't send me to hell!"

The real rule: Do whatever you want so long as there's no -proven- harm to come of it.
But the action of burning harms another
and innaction is harmfull as it is as much our duty to act in oposition to evil as it is our duty to do good by the way I mean oposition as peaceful oposition. (except in cases in which the victim of evil will be hurt phisicaly)(but all with measure!)

Your rule is most sensible

well, I'm wary of witchcraft because people I respect beleive it to be harmful. One of these days I'm going to get around to reading a book about it so I know more. I actually tried to order a book about it for free ( I am cheap) but apparently they weren't too impressed with my "donation" of zero dollars cause I never got it. :D

But the action of burning harms another
and innaction is harmfull as it is as much our duty to act in oposition to evil as it is our duty to do good by the way I mean oposition as peaceful oposition. (except in cases in which the victim of evil will be hurt phisicaly)(but all with measure!)

They'd argue that the physical body is meaningless compared to the soul, yadda yadda yadda. They'd also argue that anything not-God-oriented was evil, by definition.

Mind you, I think monotheism is one of the viler forms of religion since the good ol' throw the babies in to the flames days, if not just in how the followers act, but how the deity is supposed to behave. At least in Norse mythology you were just HUNGRY forever, instead of burning and being tormented.

I assure you, I'll take Wiccans and Pagans over Christians any day.

But the argument is one they'd use.

Hence, provable harm instead of just 'harm'.

If you don't add 'provable', people will just make up BS as they please.

"If I don't rape you, you'll stay a lesbian, and never go to heaven!"

Et cetera.

Wicca isnt evil, its just primitive and dumb.

You know where wicca comes from?

Wicca comes from a time when people were filthy, uneducated, and superstitious to the core.
These people believed that things like trees, wich they could tell were alive in some sense, could actually think, and had magical powers.

No.....its just a fucking tree.

They also believed that spirits were everywhere, and all over the damn place.
By the way, for those of you Wiccans out there who are also into Fairies and Elves and other assorted crap, back then such beings werent thought of as cute and wonderful little creatures that were playful and crapped rainbows...

to such people, thousands of years ago, those were nasty little bastards who ate children, and did other nafarious things.

So, Wicca, in its original form, was created by people who didnt bathe, often having not much in the way of sanitation, couldnt read, and believed in fairies.

Its equally as dumb as believing that the world was populated by two nudists who took dietary advice from a talking snake.

No, because Good and Evil does not exist...

"Its equally as dumb as believing that the world was populated by two nudists who took dietary advice from a talking snake."

It nice to know you have such distain for the bible. I will try to bear that in mind when I consider if I should trust anything you say.

"No, because Good and Evil does not exist..."

So Raping and murdering someone is not evil and feeding starving children is not good? I would ask you by what authority anyone is arrested then.

Wicca isnt evil, its just primitive and dumb.

You know where wicca comes from?

Wicca comes from a time when people were filthy, uneducated, and superstitious to the core.
These people believed that things like trees, wich they could tell were alive in some sense, could actually think, and had magical powers.

No.....its just a fucking tree.

They also believed that spirits were everywhere, and all over the damn place.
By the way, for those of you Wiccans out there who are also into Fairies and Elves and other assorted crap, back then such beings werent thought of as cute and wonderful little creatures that were playful and crapped rainbows...

to such people, thousands of years ago, those were nasty little bastards who ate children, and did other nafarious things.

So, Wicca, in its original form, was created by people who didnt bathe, often having not much in the way of sanitation, couldnt read, and believed in fairies.

Its equally as dumb as believing that the world was populated by two nudists who took dietary advice from a talking snake.

All of humanity comes from points like that.

The important thing is that Wiccans aren't actively being asses. I'd prefer they were non-religious, but it's at least several steps up from Christianity.

"No, because Good and Evil does not exist..."

So Raping and murdering someone is not evil and feeding starving children is not good? I would ask you by what authority anyone is arrested then.


Good and evil are situational and intent-based.

I'm fairly sure he means that good and evil as abstract, persistant things is a false notion.

Much like justice.

They're not objects or energies, just terms.

"Its equally as dumb as believing that the world was populated by two nudists who took dietary advice from a talking snake."

It nice to know you have such distain for the bible. I will try to bear that in mind when I consider if I should trust anything you say.

Trust me?

Of course you should trust me.

You should trust me to point out things like that, that make absolutely no sense, yet are part of our everyday lives.

I also want to assure you, that my disdain, as you put it, is no more intense for the Bible, than any other religious texts.

I dont hate the Bible, I hate those who purposefully misinterperet the book, for thier own ends.
In a sense, I hate the players, not the game.

Are you implying that becuase I dont believe in the bible, that Im not a good person, so you should mistrust me?

All of humanity comes from points like that.

The important thing is that Wiccans aren't actively being asses. I'd prefer they were non-religious, but it's at least several steps up from Christianity.

Humanity evolves, religion...does not.

Humanity eventually learns that sanitation, and hygeine can prevent things like THE PLAGUE.
Religions, are unwavering, and do not take into consideration lessons of the present.

Humanity evolves, religion...does not.

Humanity eventually learns that sanitation, and hygeine can prevent things like THE PLAGUE.
Religions, are unwavering, and do not take into consideration lessons of the present.

Religion does evolve. It just also has revival movements.

okay.
first off, good and evil as terms are meant to relate to a system by which to judge actions. This system, while not an object or energy, is real and is usefull as a standard. by saying good and evil "don't exist" he is implying that they cant be used as a basis for judgement which is exactly what the law does. Now perhaps this is not what he meant but I would suggest that if that is the case then he should phrase it better, because " good and evil don't exist" certainly sounds contrary to any notion of law.

okay.
first off, good and evil as terms are meant to relate to a system by which to judge actions. This system, while not an object or energy, is real and is usefull as a standard. by saying good and evil "don't exist" he is implying that they cant be used as a basis for judgement which is exactly what the law does. Now perhaps this is not what he meant but I would suggest that if that is the case then he should phrase it better, because " good and evil don't exist" certainly sounds contrary to any notion of law.

Good and evil have no one set definition, is the problem.

What's good in one place is evil in another.

In my world, pleasure for pleasure's sake, within sane bounds, is a good thing, because it increases overall happiness.

In Christianity, it's on par with murder.

"Are you implying that becuase I dont believe in the bible, that Im not a good person, so you should mistrust me?"

No.

if you are a "good person" or not is something I can't assert.
However since I beleive the bible to be the most usefull and truthfull book ever written, if you beleive it is hogwash then why should I beleive anything else you say unless I know it to be true already?

Religion does evolve. It just also has revival movements.
Because religion isn't about humanity - it's about divine that is absolute - so it cannot evolve. And no, it evolves. Just open a history book and look at those schismas, development of practics, etc. It changes but it's goal - never.

Is Magick bad? It isn't either good or bad. It's all around it is influencing our life even if we don't recognise it. Some it's effects are called "placebo" or pure "psychological". But if you counsciously practice witchcraft/Magick than it depends on how you use it and in what purpose.

yes good and evil do have measures, and many minor things are open to debate. but things like murder are not. Yes, it can be debated weather or a perticular act was murder, but if it is murder then the evil of it should not be questioned.

"pleasure for pleasure's sake"

to understand what your talking about there I will need an example.

"Are you implying that becuase I dont believe in the bible, that Im not a good person, so you should mistrust me?"

No.

if you are a "good person" or not is something I can't assert.
However since I beleive the bible to be the most usefull and truthfull book ever written, if you beleive it is hogwash then why should I beleive anything else you say unless I know it to be true already?

So, what Im hearing is, that becuase I do not believe in the bible, that i am automatically, in your eyes, forever incorrect, about anything else?

Because religion isn't about humanity - it's about divine that is absolute - so it cannot evolve. And no, it evolves. Just open a history book and look at those schismas, development of practics, etc. It changes but it's goal - never.

Is Magick bad? It isn't either good or bad. It's all around it is influencing our life even if we don't recognise it. Some it's effects are called "placebo" or pure "psychological". But if you counsciously practice witchcraft/Magick than it depends on how you use it and in what purpose.

Eh. The goals of religion vary. Historically, so has science. Science was originally a tool of religion, grand irony that it is.

As for magic, who honestly cares so long as nobody is provably harmed?

But yes, assuming it's true, it's just a tool. The notion of white and black magic is illogical. It's like having a white and black difference between knives.

Arakaria, the ultimate goal of science never changes either. so what exactly are you trying to say?

yes good and evil do have measures, and many minor things are open to debate. but things like murder are not. Yes, it can be debated weather or a perticular act was murder, but if it is murder then the evil of it should not be questioned.

Murder is also relative.

Am I a bad person if I shoot Stalin in the face?

"The notion of white and black magic is illogical"

perhaps. but as I said earlier while what it is is important I beleive where it comes from is the deciding factor.

"pleasure for pleasure's sake"

to understand what your talking about there I will need an example.

I've been known to get a lady friend off for the heck of it.

I enjoy it, she enjoys it, everyone's happy.

Except Jesus. And the kitten he's killing.

is our converstion done then?

"The notion of white and black magic is illogical"

perhaps. but as I said earlier while what it is is important I beleive where it comes from is the deciding factor.

Anything moral can only logically be based on internal intent.

is our converstion done then?

But if you can't be trusted.. can he trust you when you say you don't believe in the Bible?

:eek:

I'm a afraid the definition of murder is tied in which too many other things for me to explain why I beleive it to be absolute fully withought writing a book, which is quite frankly more time than I'm willing to give to a nation states thread ;) I'm not quite sure I know how summarize what I think on the subject of good and evil. Unfortunently it seems we have hit a snag

But if you can't be trusted.. can he trust you when you say you don't believe in the Bible?

:eek:

Hmmm...I would exclaim "Touche!" except for my lingering confusion....

"But if you can't be trusted.. can he trust you when you say you don't believe in the Bible?"

Good one :D

but seriously, I can't see any reason for him to lie to me about that.

"But if you can't be trusted.. can he trust you when you say you don't believe in the Bible?"

Good one :D

but seriously, I can't see any reason for him to lie to me about that.

That just shows how devious those non-Biblers are!

Of course, you might be a -really clever- non-Bible-believer.. and saying you believe in the Bible BECAUSE you don't...

While he really does Believe because he says he doesn't.

:eek:

Is our conversation done?

provably.
We can continue to talk but you likely won't convince me of anything because I am wary of anybody who would make fun of the bible.

Murder is also relative.

Am I a bad person if I shoot Stalin in the face?

No you're a champ but it's still murder, which is wrong.

Hey! I think your trying to confuse me now :p

Well, Kholar, I must admit that I was answering your questions with questions, so in a sense , I was being purposefully dubious.
I was attempting to engage you, a christian, in a bit of debate, geared towards morality and the bible.

I think that too many Christians believe that God, is the only source of morality, and decency.

This just isnt true.

Ghandi was a pretty swell guy.

Too many Christians, in particular, believe that no other way is correct but the one wich they adhere to, and I like to make them think about what they believe in.
Not to try to change thier minds about God and the Bible, but maybe just make them think.

Is our conversation done?

provably.
We can continue to talk but you likely won't convince me of anything because I am wary of anybody who would make fun of the bible.


Kholar...I make fun of EVERYTHING. Nothing is sacred in that regards.

To me, a person that cant find something amusing about any situation, has no sense of humour, and without one...what kind of world would we have?

shooting stalin eh?

well here is my line of thinking.

Stalin commited what ammounts to an act of war on the human race ( his infamouse purges etc.) . Therefore, killing him would be defensive warfare, not murder.

It seemed to me that your taunting of genesis was a bit malicious. evan I can appeciate all-in-fun jokes about the bible.

It seemed to me that your taunting of genesis was a bit malicious. evan I can appeciate all-in-fun jokes about the bible.


It was a tad bitter, granted, but really, isnt it just a tad on the silly side?

To me it seemed a bad idea from the start.
It reminds me of when mothers put something that they dont want thier childen to see, or have, way up on a shelf, and say "Dont touch it!"
Now the curiosity has been imbedded, and the child just HAS to know what it is.

"I think that too many Christians believe that God, is the only source of morality, and decency."

I must admit I do beleive that.
the keyword here is SOURCE
I do feel a bit sad when I think of ghandi
I think he derived his morality and decency from God but did not properly identify the source. now I don't pretend to know ghandi's mind, but I beleive at some point ghandi must have been presented with what I beleive to be the absolute truth. His rejection of this, not his good works, is what determines if he went to hell or heaven. that is the point of christianity- the worst thing you can do is be presented with the revelation of God's sacrifice- Jesus dying on the cross- and reject it.

Quick Question:

IS witchcraft is evil to u?

I've never had much experience with it, to be honest. Some friends of mine know a white wizard, who is apparently quite a nice chap. So I'll put away my dunking stool for now and say no, I don't think it's evil.

i dont think its EVIL maybe strange but thats it :p

shooting stalin eh?

well here is my line of thinking.

Stalin commited what ammounts to an act of war on the human race ( his infamouse purges etc.) . Therefore, killing him would be defensive warfare, not murder.

Yes, but where does that end?

What if, say, someone wanted to destroy or convert your entire religion, and take away all of your prosperity in the process?

certain jokes I really do find funny,
like that one in the book hitchhikers guide to the galaxy:

"In the begining God created the universe. this is generally regarded as a bad move and has made many people angry" :D

"I think that too many Christians believe that God, is the only source of morality, and decency."

I must admit I do beleive that.
the keyword here is SOURCE
I do feel a bit sad when I think of ghandi
I think he derived his morality and decency from God but did not properly identify the source. now I don't pretend to know ghandi's mind, but I beleive at some point ghandi must have been presented with what I beleive to be the absolute truth. His rejection of this, not his good works, is what determines if he went to hell or heaven. that is the point of christianity- the worst thing you can do is be presented with the revelation of God's sacrifice- Jesus dying on the cross- and reject it.

Doesn't that strike you as a bit odd?

You have to recognize that some guy died to go to heaven?

I'm afraid you will have to elaborate there... i'm not sure what you mean.

"I think that too many Christians believe that God, is the only source of morality, and decency."

I must admit I do beleive that.
the keyword here is SOURCE
I do feel a bit sad when I think of ghandi
I think he derived his morality and decency from God but did not properly identify the source. now I don't pretend to know ghandi's mind, but I beleive at some point ghandi must have been presented with what I beleive to be the absolute truth. His rejection of this, not his good works, is what determines if he went to hell or heaven. that is the point of christianity- the worst thing you can do is be presented with the revelation of God's sacrifice- Jesus dying on the cross- and reject it.

But, isnt that too quick and too easy?

To say that everything that a man like Ghandi fought for, suffered for, wich was basically...peace, at the end is all thrown aside when he is to be judged?

What better role model, on how to live your life can you have than person who was willing to sacrifice everything, including his life, all in the name of peace?

I can only think of one other, but you may not like the similarity.

I cant help but think, if indeed, Heaven exists, if you are indeed made to be judged, that is what you did with your time on earth, that will be what determines your reward.

not just died
died for your sins.

Old story.

Presume someone did EVERYTHING right, according to the Christian system, EXCEPT in regards to the Jesus thing.

EVERYTHING.

In their hearts, as well as their works.

Only that ONE thing was off.

And they burn with Stalin.

Doesn't that seem a bit weird a thing to not forgive?

"But, isnt that too quick and too easy?"

that is one complaint I hear a lot.
really, admitting your wrong- that you cant solve it all yourself, that is hard

"But, isnt that too quick and too easy?"

that is one complaint I hear a lot.
really, admitting your wrong- that you cant solve it all yourself, that is hard

Every single person who understand science and logic already know this.

Every single one.

By definition.

Except that it goes that nobody can.

Perfect knowledge isn't logically possible.

"Presume someone did EVERYTHING right"

Impossible. Can't be done.
tell me ghandi never lied.

"Presume someone did EVERYTHING right"

Impossible. Can't be done.
tell me ghandi never lied.

Presume, dammit.

"Perfect knowledge isn't logically possible."

for an imperfect being....No

presuming you did everything right? yes, you would not need christ. but nobody does do everything right.

"Perfect knowledge isn't logically possible."

for an imperfect being....No

For any being.

It's an impossible concept.

Even a being who was perfect couldn't know if something was just tricking it in to thinking it was perfect.

This works on an infinite level.

presuming you did everything right? yes, you would not need christ. but nobody does do everything right.

So no original sin?

"Even a being who was perfect couldn't know if something was just tricking it in to thinking it was perfect"

If it was PERFECT it would know
The PERFECTION Is precisly what makes the being know it is perfect

what do you mean by "original sin?"

"Even a being who was perfect couldn't know if something was just tricking it in to thinking it was perfect"

If it was PERFECT it would know
The PERFECTION Is precisly what makes the being know it is perfect

Doesn't work.

It could in fact be the perfect being, but there's no way for it to tell.

Logically impossible.

It's about as likely as a square circle.

what do you mean by "original sin?"

Um.

You know.

Adam and Eve.

The reason you can't just automatically kill babies so they go to heaven.

Man!
It has been a while since I got past the rock throwing and actually had a discussion. I forgot how nice it was- and how much you have to think :) .

You haven't proven to be actively evil yet, so I'm not grabbing my boulder.

"It could in fact be the perfect being, but there's no way for it to tell."

I'm not quite sure what your saying there...

I imagine that if you were perfect it wouldn't evan cross your mind.

Be that as it may.

It's impossible to find out, even for a perfect being.

"The reason you can't just automatically kill babies so they go to heaven."

I'm not sure what happens to a baby that dies... but I know what dosen't happen- It dosen't go to hell.

You just opened up the "We should kill all babies so they don't go to hell" floodgates...

Heres a question Ive always wondered about Christ.

If Christ was born of a human mother, that would make him half human, and half divine, right?

So, its safe to assume that he was a man.
Thus, he loved, hated, feared, ate, slept, and crapped, like everyone else.

Mankind, is by its very nature, imperfect.

We are flawed creatures, with quirks and insecurites.

Ergo, was Jesus not subject to these same things?

This is going to sound a bit weird...

To my thinking because God is, in fact, perfect his "mind" is a sort of human logical paradox. You can't reason what he does or how he does it only that he, in all likelyhood, exists.

Yes, but here's the thing.

Logical impossibilities are in fact impossibilities.

Otherwise you argue for a round square.

No, its just another way to worship god, even if it does take a different form. Maybe its finally time that Christians, Muslims and Jews (although Jews don't say they are the only way) that their are other people out there and other ways to worship.

'If Christ was born of a human mother, that would make him half human, and half divine, right?"

the way I've understood it is he was divine and yet able to experience human suffering, which is what made him able to go through our punishent for us. Jesus was not flawed because he was not fully connected to adam and eve.

Witch craft tends to involve satanic stuff and magic, so evil it is. Witch craft is an evil form of magic often used to inflict harm. If you are using magic and what not and it is actually helpful, you call that witchcraft?
Um. You are seriously ignorant. Real witchcraft is nothing like that crap the church crams down your throat. REAL witches don't even believe in satan. Therefore, witchcraft by nature, cannot involve satanisim. Satanists, however, do call their rituals "magic" and often get mistaken for witchraft. Now I won't lie, there are some nasty spells out there. But the main tennant a true witch follows is "an harm ye none do as ye will." Somtimes the rules get broken, but in general, witchcraft is a peaceful, benifical art.
On a side note, I am angry. Not at peoples opinons, veiws, ignorance or beliefs, but that it is socially acceptable for derrogatory terms to be used at witches. I can be called evil, wrong, immoral, a satanist (which i am soooo not.) and be told by anyone that I am going to hell. However, I cannot call a Christian an ifidel, use the term Jew to imply a love of money, Call a Fanatic Muslim a religous terrorist, or make any jokes ivolving catholic preists and little boys without getting my rear chewed. food for thought peoples.

I finally see where Anselm was coming from.

There is only something wrong with a "round square" when it relates only to imperfect things. as related to the perfect- a square may very well be round ( stop laughing and dont forget the AS RELATED TO THE PERFECT) I don't expect you to understand it and I myself don't completly, I only know that it makes some vague sort of sense to me.

No, its just another way to worship god, even if it does take a different form. Maybe its finally time that Christians, Muslims and Jews (although Jews don't say they are the only way) that their are other people out there and other ways to worship.
Thank you for saying something truly intelligent. Blessings on you. In my religon we have a saying: "No one path is truly right for everyone." People by nature must achieve their individuality, or else the spark that makes our species truly unique would die out. Closedmindedness never got anyone anywhere worth going.

I assure you, many here wouldn't chew your rear.

"REAL witches don't even believe in satan."

Satan dosen't require that you beleive in him.
In fact, i think he would prefer if you didn't.
Can't blame what "isn't" there you know...

"REAL witches don't even believe in satan."

Satan dosen't require that you beleive in him.
In fact, i think he would prefer if you didn't.
Can't blame what "isn't" there you know...

That's what Loki wants you to think. :eek:

I assure you, many here wouldn't chew your rear.
I was reffering to society in general, but ty.

I was reffering to society in general, but ty.

This is where I remind that the average human being is an idiot.

So ignore'em.

As a christian, I think I can safely say that we can't accept other religions as valid, or we are not christians anymore. It was Christ himself who said " I am the way the truth and the life no one comes to the father except through me"

Now I expect you all hate that passage. but many people find that absolute truth is refreshing after lurking around in relativism.

It's hard to hate something that proves oneself right in that the religion that calls it good is, by humanist views, evil.

well, I'm not too terribly impressed with humanism.

PS
That was a very confusing statement- It may sound all cool but surly you could have phrased it better

well, I'm not too terribly impressed with humanism.

PS
That was a very confusing statement- It may sound all cool but surly you could have phrased it better

It's kind of creepy when someone doesn't like humanism.... what exactly is your objection to being nice for niceness's sake?

And it was a fine statement. Just means you showed an evil quote.

I just looked up the definition of humanism.
and now I must say I have absolutly no idea what you meant by this:

It's hard to hate something that proves oneself right in that the religion that calls it good is, by humanist views, evil.

Because a bliss/torture for eternity choice given based on allegience rather than niceness is a very non-humanistic stance.

Well, its not very nice to tell God to "shove it" after he sacrificed his son for you.

It's not very nice for someone to send you to hell because you disagree with the importance of a three-day event.

Arakaria, the ultimate goal of science never changes either. so what exactly are you trying to say?
Well... the paradigma changes. And I never said that ultimate goal of science ever changes. I mean - religion, Magick and science... it all has one goal - the TRUTH. The war of paradigmas is something that never changes - from the dawn of sophistics I think ;)
Yes, but here's the thing.
Logical impossibilities are in fact impossibilities.
Impossibilities of YOUR mind. Logic was made by human mind and therefore it is as imperfect as human. It's only about words and language - that is about imperfection. Let me show you...
One of St. Anselm said that IF I can think about
"For if it is at least in the understanding alone, it can be imagined to be in reality too, which is greater. Therefore if that than which a greater cannot be imagined is in the understanding alone, that very thing than which a greater cannot be imagined is something than which a greater can be imagined. But certainly this cannot be. There exists, therefore, beyond doubt something than which a greater cannot be imagined, both in the understanding and in reality." (full text can be found here: http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/dbanach/anselm.htm ).
Otherwise you argue for a round square.
Round squares doesn't exist, rounds doesn't exist, squares also don't... Why? Well... They are 2D so they are only abstract, simply geometric intelectual constructs. You won't find anything that is PERFECT in the nature - except the effects of human engineering. You know what fractals are?
Today science is obviously stating - there is no matter, no atoms - only pure energy.
As a christian, I think I can safely say that we can't accept other religions as valid
As a Christian I say we CAN accept other religions as valid. ;)

allegience?

I love that verse because it dosen't leave room for people to bicker about it.
It's like " um, sorry if you don't like it, but this is the way it works". It's so.... Definitive

"As a Christian I say we CAN accept other religions as valid."

the word Christian implies that you follow the word of christ. if he says he is the only way then he is the only way.

allegience?

I love that verse because it dosen't leave room for people to bicker about it.
It's like " um, sorry if you don't like it, but this is the way it works". It's so.... Definitive

You know. Side with me, or your ass gets kicked, no matter how nice you are, and how kind a heart you have.

well its been... Interesting
but the fricken sun is coming up, and dang it, I'm tired
talk to you all later hopefully......ahhhhhhhhhh need sleep.
no argue right now.
vocabulary reduced to cave-man.
ehhhhhhhhhhhghhhhhhhhhhh...............................................bye

Impossibilities of YOUR mind. Logic was made by human mind and therefore it is as imperfect as human. It's only about words and language - that is about imperfection. Let me show you...


Logic was discovered, not made.

The only perfect concept is 'zero'.


One of St. Anselm said that IF I can think about


General rule, if they're a saint, they're easy to refute. Just so you know.

May as well quote Pascal.


"For if it is at least in the understanding alone, it can be imagined to be in reality too, which is greater.


The Invisible Pink Unicorn can be imagined to be in reality.


Therefore if that than which a greater cannot be imagined is in the understanding alone, that very thing than which a greater cannot be imagined is something than which a greater can be imagined.


One. Depends on the imagination. I can imagine things that other people can't. Though I will admit, comprehending infinity does hurt my brain a bit. Same with logical impossibilities. I can comprehend them, but they effing hurt.


But certainly this cannot be. There exists, therefore, beyond doubt something than which a greater cannot be imagined, both in the understanding and in reality."



Does not follow.

If I imagine a Pink Unicorn, that does not mean there is a Pink Unicorn.

Dude was as stupid as Pascal.




Round squares doesn't exist, rounds doesn't exist, squares also don't... Why? Well... They are 2D so they are only abstract, simply geometric intelectual constructs.


Best thing about abstracts is that they can actually be assigned absolute traits.


You won't find anything that is PERFECT in the nature - except the effects of human engineering.


Nothing real can be called perfect in any meaningful sense.

Perfection itself is a concept that only works in regards to abstract concepts, such as a perfect circle.


You know what fractals are?


Yes. They're very pretty equations.


Today science is obviously stating - there is no matter, no atoms - only pure energy.


Nope.

Energy is just a form of the string mass.

Existance is change. String theory is busy trying to show this, whether they know it or not.


As a Christian I say we CAN accept other religions as valid. ;)

Many Christians would say you aren't a Christian for saying that.

man! dang it I gotta reply to that... but nomatter how hard it is to leave and not see your response to this.. I'm gonna do it.

Not to be rude, but If you don't side with your creator, the one who gave you life and every good thing you've ever had, your obviously not nice or kind.

Bye. for real....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Your statement is absolutely illogical.

If my mom's a bitch, she'll be treated like a bitch. If a creator being is a bastard, she'll be treated like a bastard.

100 hp? That's it? Well, in that case...


Eat meteor storm+Summon Monster IX+hide behind the lvl 20 brb and lvl 20 ftr :D
This was about 3 years ago. I'm a DM now.

Thank you. Isn't it amazing that when a Xian uses magick it's a miracle, but when a Witch uses magick, it's evil?

*laughs*Welcome. And you're right. People tend to listen to the stereotypes of witches, and other Magick practioners, instead of talking to a couple themselves, which frustrates me. If you want to judge something, learn about it first, completely. Then have an informed opinion.

IS witchcraft is evil to u?

No, u gets along fine with it. V and w, on the other hand, are constantly complaining about it keeping them up at night with its loud parties.

Got hit by a fireball once.
Just last week, some arsehole zealot of a cleric called me an "unwashed heathen", and when I told him to shove it, he cast Pillar of Fire on me!

the word Christian implies that you follow the word of christ. if he says he is the only way then he is the only way.
Nope - it's your, Roman-Catholic/New Evangelist point of view. Read some gnostic teachings that survived the "holy fire". I follow Christ's teachings - but I'm not an arrogant that says "hey! I know the only truth!". I also say that Christ was born from non-virgin woman, he had brothers and that we have to read the Holy Bible through historical context. Archeological findings of coffin labeled (don't remember his name) "son of Joseph (...) brother of Jesus". Sorry but... Bible is full of symbols - I don't take them literaly. Well... I'm a dangerous, extreme heretic I think ;).
Logic was discovered, not made.
Sorry but English isn't my native tongue.
The Invisible Pink Unicorn can be imagined to be in reality.
Dude was as stupid as Pascal.
Its not the point. IF you can imagine something 100% absolut - God. Invisible Pink Unicorn isn't an absolute being. Read it all again in proper context. Look - he just don't say anything about anything. He says about an ABSOLUT being - God.
He just says that if you can imagine an absolut that doesn't exist it isn't an absolut (because existing thing is more absolut then imaginary) - so your thinking is self-contradictionary (English isn't my native lagnage so sorry if I make mispellings, use improper words, etc.)
Many Christians would say you aren't a Christian for saying that.
Because they are followers of literalist faction that "won" over history. It doesn't make them more true.

I hope that I didn't offended anyone. If so - I'm sorry.

As a christian, I think I can safely say that we can't accept other religions as valid, or we are not christians anymore. It was Christ himself who said " I am the way the truth and the life no one comes to the father except through me"

And that is an example of exclusivism, which is common in many religions.

Exclusivism
People with exclusivist beliefs typically explain other religions as either in error, or as corruptions or counterfeits of the true faith. Examples include:

* Christians believe Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John 14:6.
* The Qur'an states: "O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people." Qur'an 5:51.
* Jews believe God said to Israel through Moses: "You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself. Now, therefore, if you will obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my own possession among all peoples; for all the earth is mine, and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation."
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/religion

Since the man (and to me, he was just a man, maybe an intelligent one, but by no means "divine") spoke in parables, I read the statement "I am the way the truth and the life no one comes to the father except through me" as saying "Do as I do" not "Do as I say." This means "if you do as I do (actions), then you too can enter the kingdom of heaven." This would be an example of inclusivism:

Inclusivism
People with inclusivist beliefs recognize some truth in all faith systems, highlighting agreements and minimizing differences, but see their own faith as in some way ultimate. Examples include:
From Islam:
- The Qur'an states: "Only argue with the People of the Book in the kindest way - except in the case of those of them who do wrong - saying, 'We have faith in what has been sent down to us and what was sent down to you. Our God and your God are one and we submit to Him.'" (Holy Qur'an, Surat al-'Ankabut; 29:46)
From Judaism:
- The Talmud states: "The righteous of all peoples have a place in the World-To-Come" (Tos. to Sanhedrin 13:2, Sifra to Leviticus 19:18), and affirms that the great majority of non-Jewish humanity will be saved, due to God's overwhelming mercy (BT Sanhedrin 105a).
From the Bahá'í Faith:
- Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian of the Bahá'í Faith states: "The fundamental principle enunciated by Bahá'u'lláh, the followers of His Faith firmly believe, is that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is a continuous and progressive process, that all the great religions of the world are divine in origin, that their basic principles are in complete harmony, that their aims and purposes are one and the same, that their teachings are but facets of one truth, that their functions are complementary, that they differ only in the nonessential aspects of their doctrines, and that their missions represent successive stages in the spiritual evolution of human society." (The Faith of Bahá'u'lláh" in World Order, Vol. 7, No. 2 (1972-73)) http://www.bic-un.bahai.org/47-0701.htm

Of course you also have pluralism:

Pluralism
People with pluralist beliefs make no distinction between faith systems, viewing each one as valid within a particular culture. Examples include:

* The Qur'an, revealed through Muhammad, states, "Those with Faith, those who are Jews, and the Christians and Sabaeans, all who have Faith in Allah and the Last Day and act rightly, will have their reward with their Lord. They will feel no fear and will know no sorrow." (Qur'an, Surat al-Baqara; 2:62)
* The Christian writer Paul wrote, "To those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them." Romans 2:6-15.

SOOOOOOOOOOO............

When it boils down to it, it doesn't really matter what religion you follow. All religious leaders taught love. It doesn't make one particular faith right or another wrong. They just use different vocabulary. It doesn't give you the right to tell someone else that they are wrong and are going to burn for eternity in Hell, and vice versa. It doesn't give ANYONE the right to tell me that MY path is any less valid than theirs because I don't believe in the myths about their spiritual leader.

According to Christianity's own tenet: "Judge not lest ye be judged."

I am a Pagan, and a proud one. I live life ethically and try to do what is right. I don't believe Jesus died for my sins, but I don't believe that this will affect the state of my soul after I no longer walk this earth.

Nope - it's your, Roman-Catholic/New Evangelist point of view. Read some gnostic teachings that survived the "holy fire". I follow Christ's teachings - but I'm not an arrogant that says "hey! I know the only truth!". I also say that Christ was born from non-virgin woman, he had brothers and that we have to read the Holy Bible through historical context. Archeological findings of coffin labeled (don't remember his name) "son of Joseph (...) brother of Jesus". Sorry but... Bible is full of symbols - I don't take them literaly. Well... I'm a dangerous, extreme heretic I think ;).


My husband, also an ordained PAGAN minister, suggests you also check out the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus' twin brother. ;) He thinks you may find it enlightening. Also, check out the Gospel of Mary Magdelene...Jesus' wife. :D

hmm, evil? Well, I don't believe a thing can be evil. If a person makes it evil then it can be evil. If a person does only good with it then it can be good.
I believe people can take from it what they believe they can take from it. Since I believe it has no real power then I would take nothing from it.

i assume since we're having this conversation you made your savings throw and only took half damage.

Unless he was a rouge or had a resistance or had more then xd6+x health.

Witchcraft by definition is evil. Both white and black are evil, but the evil of white witchcraft is cloaked by the deed.

My husband, also an ordained PAGAN minister, suggests you also check out the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus' twin brother. ;) He thinks you may find it enlightening. Also, check out the Gospel of Mary Magdelene...Jesus' wife. :D

Thomas the lesser was his little brother and no one knows if Mary Magdelene was his wife.

Just last week, some arsehole zealot of a cleric called me an "unwashed heathen", and when I told him to shove it, he cast Pillar of Fire on me!

Clerics are horrible.

A dream team consists of

1 Fighter/Barbarian
1 Ranger (I prefer a duel wield one)
1-2 Druids (One caster other fighter)
1 Socerer(ess)(Socery is innate and as such is not a craft.)
1 Bard/Rouge (I prefer Rouge if I carry a thief at all. Bards are just horrible)

Witchcraft by definition is evil. Both white and black are evil, but the evil of white witchcraft is cloaked by the deed.


Witchcraft is considered the craft of magic, thus practicing The Craft requires no belief in specific gods or goddesses and is a learned skill, not a spiritual path. There are other Pagan Witches, "Christian Witches," "Buddhist Witches," etc. who also practice witchcraft.

Quick Question:

IS witchcraft is evil to u?


No. But I don't believe it works, so as far as I'm concerned, it's just a load of ritualistic nonsense that harms nobody.

Thomas the lesser was his little brother and no one knows if Mary Magdelene was his wife.

The Gospel of Thomas is a collection of Jesus' teachings “written in the name of one who should know them better than anyone: his twin brother, Didymus Judas Thomas.” [1]

The fact the alleged author is Jesus' “twin brother” might give one pause. Clearly this is not the stuff of the Catholic Church's party line. Yet the material is astoundingly similar to the canonical gospels. The distinction lies in three areas: 1) the author being a twin brother – supposedly something not to the liking of those who would claim extraordinary divinity for Jesus Christ, 2) the comparable sayings in the canonical gospels not allowing for quite the same interpretations as those in the Gospel of Thomas , and 3) the saying in Thomas going into areas notably distinct from the traditional gospels.


Ehrman [1] has noted that, “The name Thomas is an Aramaic equivalent of the Greek word Didymus , which means ‘twin'. Thomas was allegedly Jesus' identical twin, other-wise known as Jude (Mark 6:3), or Didymus Judas Thomas.” The idea of a son of god sharing pre-birth space with a mortal may seem illogical, but does have at least one other example – that of the Greek god Heracles (the Roman Hercules), whose mortal twin was Iphicles. And according to the Acts of Thomas each of the apostles were supernaturally empowered to do miracles, predict the future, cast out demons, heal the sick, raise the dead, and all of the other parlor tricks of supernatural beings.

My husband, also an ordained PAGAN minister, suggests you also check out the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus' twin brother. ;) He thinks you may find it enlightening. Also, check out the Gospel of Mary Magdelene...Jesus' wife. :D
I know all of that so... I'm enlightened yet? Nah... Need to meditate more ;)

Off-topic alert!
Clerics are horrible.

A dream team consists of

1 Fighter/Barbarian
1 Ranger (I prefer a duel wield one)
1-2 Druids (One caster other fighter)
1 Socerer(ess)(Socery is innate and as such is not a craft.)
1 Bard/Rouge (I prefer Rouge if I carry a thief at all. Bards are just horrible)
I disagree! Clerics are great! Surely better than Druids in my opinion. Bards are also a lot of fun! ;)
Sorcerers? Well... I'm not sure if Wizards aren't better ;)

That's what Loki wants you to think. :eek:

Loki is not the devil, he was a viking god

I think that too many Christians believe that God, is the only source of morality, and decency.

This just isnt true.

Ghandi was a pretty swell guy.

Too many Christians, in particular, believe that no other way is correct but the one wich they adhere to, and I like to make them think about what they believe in.
Not to try to change thier minds about God and the Bible, but maybe just make them think.

try the catholic idea of limbo-babies and good pagans go there

"No, because Good and Evil does not exist..."

feeding starving children is not good? I would ask you by what authority anyone is arrested then.

their stomachs can bloat and they can die

try the catholic idea of limbo-babies and good pagans go there


Oh jeez that whole philosophy is just a headache, and frankly, Its no surprise they have recanted the whole Idea of Limbo.
I beleive they still espouse Purgatory as a real place, but limbo, they apparently decided didnt exist afterall.

Nice thing about the Catholics, they can pretty much make it up as they go along.

I don't believe in evil so I guess witchcraft can't be evil, but then again I don't believe in witchcraft either, so I guess the whole question is moot.

Besides fighter/thiefs rule! :p

Witchcraft isn't evil, or stupid. It's just another way to get to the same end of the road as everyone else. If anyone dissagrees with me, that's there problem, the truth is everwhere if you know where to see it.

Quick Question:

IS witchcraft is evil to u?

Who is U.? How should I know what is evil to him or her? :p

Edit: That said, Pagans certainly have it rough. There are two sides of the fence here, the religious fundamentalists and the scientists, and while they spent much of their time grappling with each other, neither of them like the Pagans. The one want to burn them along with the scientists, the other ridicule them along with the fundamentalists. Ridiculing is, of course, less harmful than burning, but no less frustrating.

Personally, I think once you get beyond a certain measure of devoutness, any religious belief gets comical. This is true for Christians, especially for more eccentric denominations like the Latter-Day Saints and Jehova's Witnesses, and it is certainly true for Pagans. They all have something valuable to teach us, but a lot of what they believe is, quite bluntly, laughable.

Also, check out the Gospel of Mary Magdelene...Jesus' wife. :D

Isn't that the one that according to Dan Brown's novel is buried benath the glass pyramid in the Louvre? Or did someone actually find it?

Quick Question:

IS witchcraft is evil to u?
Witchcraft is not "evil".

Witch craft tends to involve satanic stuff and magic, so evil it is. Witch craft is an evil form of magic often used to inflict harm. If you are using magic and what not and it is actually helpful, you call that witchcraft?

If you know nothing about the subject, perhaps you'd be better served to remain silent?

Quick Question:

IS witchcraft is evil to u?

Is an automobile evil if someone uses it to intentionally kill someone else, or is the one who operates the vehicle in such a manner evil? Witchcraft is just a tool, kind of like prayer. Evil exists only in the intentions of the one who wields it. If you use it to harm or control others, then you are evil.

Isn't that the one that according to Dan Brown's novel is buried benath the glass pyramid in the Louvre? Or did someone actually find it?

I don't know about anything being buried beneath any glass pyramid, but I do know that there are many theories about her being Jesus' wife before Dan Brown wrote his book.

http://www.halexandria.org/dward225.htm
http://www.halexandria.org/dward768.htm

Wicca isnt evil, its just primitive and dumb.

You know where wicca comes from?

Wicca comes from a time when people were filthy, uneducated, and superstitious to the core.
These people believed that things like trees, wich they could tell were alive in some sense, could actually think, and had magical powers.

No.....its just a fucking tree.

They also believed that spirits were everywhere, and all over the damn place.
By the way, for those of you Wiccans out there who are also into Fairies and Elves and other assorted crap, back then such beings werent thought of as cute and wonderful little creatures that were playful and crapped rainbows...

to such people, thousands of years ago, those were nasty little bastards who ate children, and did other nafarious things.

So, Wicca, in its original form, was created by people who didnt bathe, often having not much in the way of sanitation, couldnt read, and believed in fairies.

Its equally as dumb as believing that the world was populated by two nudists who took dietary advice from a talking snake.


Ok first off, about sanitation- Queen Elizabeth, a good little CHRISTIAN girl, took two baths a year to demonstrate good hygiene to her people. TWO. You can't blame humanity (or their religions) for their ignorance of germs. It doesn't work that way.

And as for the tree- No one said it had magical powers. It has energy, the core and root to all magic. It may have certain properties, like healing chemicals, but when you don't have the benefit of today's science, of course you will think that's magic.

As for spirits everywhere, what about Christianity? There are cases in the Bible of demons everywhere, being expelled from their human hosts. Not to mention the Holy SPIRIT which inspired faith in all it touched. Sounds kind of similar to me.

And last but not least- eating children? WHERE did you get that idea? :(
That just proves to me how much you need to open a book written by a witch and read what they have to say.

Remember, Christianity is thought of as evil as well. Christians and Pagans have the same problems facing them- common misconceptions of how evil and radical they are in beliefs. Celebrate the similarities (trust me, they're out there) rather than focusing on the differences.

Oh and I forgot- Pagans were around long before the written word. Illiteracy meant nothing at that time. :D

There was already a thread on this, in fact, with the exact same question with the exact same spelling...I'm rather suspicious that the two different thread posters are one.

Edit: I've found that both of the authors of both threads are the same, so might I suggest the participants of this thread move to the other one, since it is further developed?

hi drache

ive passed my one hundreth post without realising it.

Witchcraft has unfortunately gotten a bad rap over the millenia. As a practicing Wiccan/witch, there is nothing wrong with it. All magick is gray, the intent is either good or evil. So Witchcraft isn't evil, the person using it could be though.

Witch craft technicly is the use of black magic for evil. It is the magic of witches, who were minions of the devil. Those are the meanings at the time they were instituted and are usable today. If it aint evil, it aint witch craft.

Well, it depends on your definition of 'witchcraft'.
If a 'witch' is a green person who flies around on a broom and eats small children, well, I think that qualifies as 'evil'.
If a witch is a rather sad teenager who thinks that theyre cool because they wear black and think they have magical powers, theyre merely misguided, although Ive known a few who think that theyre evil in some sense.
If a witch is, as is in most cases, a person who partakes in a religion based on the ancient Celtic nature worshiping Druids, well, theyre also misguided (thats an IMO, just so you know), but not EVIL. Except the ones in ancient temples with those sickle thingies. I dont like them.
^Joke.

Witch craft technicly is the use of black magic for evil. It is the magic of witches, who were minions of the devil. Those are the meanings at the time they were instituted and are usable today. If it aint evil, it aint witch craft.

'Witches' and 'Wiccans' have never been connected, of any necessity, to 'the devil'... in any way.

That's not to say there have NOT been 'Satanist witches'... just that a relationship with a 'christian' deity is NOT necessary (or even desirable) for practice of the craft.

Fools, fools everywhere.

Or perhaps simply uneducated.

Define "witchcraft.This will solve any arguement offered by sane, logical people.

"Witchcraft" meaning "devil worship", "devil" meaning "evil incarnate", would be evil.

"Witchcraft" meaning "a practice by a Wiccan with good intentions" is good.

"Witchcraft" meaning "a practice by a Wiccan with good intentions but the working goes wrong" is neither.

"Witchcraft" meaning "something that does not actually exist" is neither.

I do not put a defination for a Wiccan with bad intentions because then you are not truly Wiccan. Just a poser. However, if you called yourself Wiccan and you have bad intentions, that could be evil or neither. Depends on many factors, which I am to lazy to type.

Witch craft technicly is the use of black magic for evil. It is the magic of witches, who were minions of the devil. Those are the meanings at the time they were instituted and are usable today. If it aint evil, it aint witch craft.

Ain't? I will NOT converse with someone who doesn't know that ain't IS NOT a correct english word in the sentence they are using. either go away and learn what is, or go away and don't come back.

isnt WITCHCRAFT (as opposed to being a wiccan or a pagan or anyother similar belief system) the casting of SPELLS by means of saying certain words or making some kind of sacrifice (animal or blood of some kind)

and doesnt a belief in that kind of thing make you .... well .... pathetic?

i mean given that it doesnt WORK doesnt relying on it put you in some bad circumstances when it doesnt help you out?

isnt WITCHCRAFT (as opposed to being a wiccan or a pagan or anyother similar belief system) the casting of SPELLS by means of saying certain words or making some kind of sacrifice (animal or blood of some kind)

and doesnt a belief in that kind of thing make you .... well .... pathetic?

i mean given that it doesnt WORK doesnt relying on it put you in some bad circumstances when it doesnt help you out?

Witchcraft is the belief that there are techniques that can influence events around you in a positive fashion, and the practise of those techniques.

If you think Witchcraft is about animal sacrifices, you may have been watching too much Buffy....

Is it valid? How do you judge? If you perform a ritual appealing for positive energies in a circle.. you are called a witch. Do the same thing in a church, you are called a Christian.

Is there any OBJECTIVE value to either process? It's hard to be sure.

as i understand it, prayer is a REQUEST to god to do something. a sophisticated person prays for guidance or comfort rather than to get a pony for christmas. god takes it into consideration and does as he sees fit. "thy will be done" and all that

a spell COMPELLS the universe to change. if its done right, the desired result will happen.

they are both rather suspect. there may be a big psychological aspect to it, but anyone who thinks they change the universe by saying some words or doing some ritual is deluding themselves.

as i understand it, prayer is a REQUEST to god to do something. a sophisticated person prays for guidance or comfort rather than to get a pony for christmas. god takes it into consideration and does as he sees fit. "thy will be done" and all that

a spell COMPELLS the universe to change. if its done right, the desired result will happen.

they are both rather suspect. there may be a big psychological aspect to it, but anyone who thinks they change the universe by saying some words or doing some ritual is deluding themselves.

Evidence?

If you are going to make an assertion like "anyone who thinks... is deluding themselves", then you really need to be able to back up that claim... otherwise all you have is hollow rhetoric.

Not that I disagree, necessarily - but since I can't PROVE that prayer and 'magick' have no positive effects (in fact, there has been some evidence to the contrary) - it is not a claim I would make.

Especially since a positive mental attitude can be a ticket to success... regardless of the efficacy of the 'technique' used to attain it.

well now i was holding out the courtesy of supposing that the efficacy of prayer cant be judged because it is a simple request of god to do something and god can do it or not as HE chooses. so if i pray to get a pony for christmas and i dont get a pony, thats gods will not a failure of prayer.

if, however, someone thinks that by saying some words or doing some ritual that a pony will appear out of thin air (not that anyone believes this) they are delusional.

sure any ritual can have a great psychological effect but since there is no mechanism for a chant to change the structure of the universe i dont feel compelled to PROVE that magic is nonsense.

Quick Question:

IS witchcraft is evil to u?

well I have never had any bad experiences with it however try not to get involved with any such thing

:gundge:

NO, is it evil to you?

I love witches..have em every day for dinner

NO, is it evil to you?

I love witches..have em every day for dinner

I have you for dinner!! :mad:

well now i was holding out the courtesy of supposing that the efficacy of prayer cant be judged because it is a simple request of god to do something and god can do it or not as HE chooses. so if i pray to get a pony for christmas and i dont get a pony, thats gods will not a failure of prayer.

if, however, someone thinks that by saying some words or doing some ritual that a pony will appear out of thin air (not that anyone believes this) they are delusional.

sure any ritual can have a great psychological effect but since there is no mechanism for a chant to change the structure of the universe i dont feel compelled to PROVE that magic is nonsense.

So, what you are saying is that you have created a Strawman version of witchcraft - where people 'compel' events with their spells, and 'make things happen' by 'saying some words or doing a ritual'... and now refuse to defend that platform?

Fair enough - it was your invention. Feel free to prove it or not, as you please. It has nothing to do, however, with the topic of the discussion.

I may be agnostic, but if living by the rede qualify's me as a witch then I may as well be one.

further I'd just like to point out that there is no such thing as 'absolute evil' or 'absolute good' that is all actions are morally subjective, based on the fundamental principle of liberalism which is, I believe stated above and handilly summed up in 'these eight words'

"An ye harm none, do as ye wilt"

of course this is only my ideology based upon the lack of any definitive evidence to the contrary, it may turn out that there is in fact a divine deity and that it has the power to condemn me for actions contravening its 'laws'... in such a situation I'd be slightly b*ggered, but still, we live as we deem best.

Originally Posted by Ashmoria
well now i was holding out the courtesy of supposing that the efficacy of prayer cant be judged because it is a simple request of god to do something and god can do it or not as HE chooses. so if i pray to get a pony for christmas and i dont get a pony, thats gods will not a failure of prayer.

if, however, someone thinks that by saying some words or doing some ritual that a pony will appear out of thin air (not that anyone believes this) they are delusional.

sure any ritual can have a great psychological effect but since there is no mechanism for a chant to change the structure of the universe i dont feel compelled to PROVE that magic is nonsense.
So, what you are saying is that you have created a Strawman version of witchcraft - where people 'compel' events with their spells, and 'make things happen' by 'saying some words or doing a ritual'... and now refuse to defend that platform?

Fair enough - it was your invention. Feel free to prove it or not, as you please. It has nothing to do, however, with the topic of the discussion.
Not only that, but granting God magical powers. ;)

Not only that, but granting God magical powers. ;)

It puzzles me... this approach: MY unlikely and inexplicable story is true, but YOUR unlikely and equally inexplicable story must be lies...

even though were one truly christian one would have to accept the existance of witchcraft and magic because they're told to watch out for it and avoid it...

It puzzles me... this approach: MY unlikely and inexplicable story is true, but YOUR unlikely and equally inexplicable story must be lies...
Yup. That is exactly what I saw, too.

even though were one truly christian one would have to accept the existance of witchcraft and magic because they're told to watch out for it and avoid it...
Good point! I think a lot more Christians believe the silly misconceptions about magic simply because they believe in (the fallacy of) an omnipotent god.

there are misconceptions of magic?
there is a fallacy of an omnipotent being?

can you construct a logical arguement to prove either of these two points?
further could you defend them against the falsification principle?

even though were one truly christian one would have to accept the existance of witchcraft and magic because they're told to watch out for it and avoid it...

It's part of a special double-standard...

It is a sin to practise any form of divination, and yet Joseph was allowed to divine dreams...

It is a sin to bend the knee to any graven image, yet Moses had rod in the shape of a snake (I believe), that people were healed by bowing towards...

It is a sin to divine astrologically, yet Genesis states that divination was the 'purpose' of the stars in Creation...

Apparently, it's only a sin, if OTHER people do it...

It's part of a special double-standard...

It is a sin to practise any form of divination, and yet Joseph was allowed to divine dreams...

It is a sin to bend the knee to any graven image, yet Moses had rod in the shape of a snake (I believe), that people were healed by bowing towards...

It is a sin to divine astrologically, yet Genesis states that divination was the 'purpose' of the stars in Creation...

Apparently, it's only a sin, if OTHER people do it...

Of course. When it's them...these are gifts from God...God manifesting his/its will through them. When it's anyone else, it's evil and the devil trying to lead good little xians astray.

there are misconceptions of magic?
there is a fallacy of an omnipotent being?

can you construct a logical arguement to prove either of these two points?
further could you defend them against the falsification principle?

An omnipotent being must be a fallacy, IF it is assumed to be able to interact within finite space.

Thus - if 'god' is interventionist, he cannot be omnipotent... the concept is flawed when examined WITHIN a rational environment.

Of course. When it's them...these are gifts from God...God manifesting his/its will through them. When it's anyone else, it's evil and the devil trying to lead good little xians astray.

Which is the other thing that always amuses me... the 'christian' conceit that it is a 'monotheism', when they clearly display dualistic theology...

you seem to be attempting to put limits on something which is by definition limitless...

if a being were truly omnipotent why should it 'have' to conform to a rational environment, or any form of logical beyond that of its own will. Why should it infact not be able to affect a finite space... and indeed is space finite?

also if this being is indeed omnipotent then is free will actually possible? and in which case the rebellion and war in heaven was in fact planned, thus sin is in fact a part of the plan and thus we are merely actors within the role assigned to us. Thus there is no such thing as against gods will and neither is there such a thing as 'wrong' nor 'right' for all things are within the will of that omnipotent being.

That is where the logic of christianity truly fails

you seem to be attempting to put limits on something which is by definition limitless...

if a being were truly omnipotent why should it 'have' to conform to a rational environment, or any form of logical beyond that of its own will. Why should it infact not be able to affect a finite space... and indeed is space finite?

Not trying to limit the limitless, at all... that's almost my point, in fact.

If 'god' is interventionist... or capable of 'being' interventionist, then his/her/it's existence must intrude into our reality in some aspect.

In order to intrude into our reality, it must, automatically be 'limited' in some part, by our reality..

example: if 'god' was bigger than the universe, but 'he' inserted 'himself' into the universe... he would be limited by the scale of the universe.

Within OUR reality. it is impossible to be omnipotent... no entity can be all-powerful WITHIN the confines of reality.

Thus - an 'omnipotent god' is logically impossible WITHIN our space... BECAUSE it would mean imposing limits on the limitless.

One thing that people seem to be getting wrong is the difference between Witchcraft and Magick. Witchcraft is the religion, Magick is the practise of spell, etc.

We are not evil. We were there before you were.

there are misconceptions of magic?
there is a fallacy of an omnipotent being?

can you construct a logical arguement to prove either of these two points?
further could you defend them against the falsification principle?
There's a falsification principle?

The misconceptions about magic are many: Samantha twitches her nose and a pony appears; a stage magician cuts a woman in half and puts her back together; witches gather in a circle and put herbs in a caldron to manipulate the world around them. Magic is not explained or explanable to the unenlightened.

The fallacy of an omnipotent being has been done to death on these boards.

you seem to be attempting to put limits on something which is by definition limitless...

if a being were truly omnipotent why should it 'have' to conform to a rational environment, or any form of logical beyond that of its own will. Why should it infact not be able to affect a finite space... and indeed is space finite?
Because god is not separate from man. God's "all-power" and unlimitlessness are a part of us, within us: the power of our mind/heart/soul.

Witchcraft is not evil nor is it used by those who practice it to get stuff or to punish people. :rolleyes:

It is a religious practice, just like Catholicism, Judaism or Islam.

This website should answer many questions that you have about witchcraft, etc.

The Witches' Voice
www.witchvox.com/

i assume since we're having this conversation you made your savings throw and only took half damage.

I saw a beholder once... it was scary and he tried to eat me

I think witchcraft is harmless. There's no such thing as a real spell doing real things, not even for a level 2 paladin / 6 death guard like me - it's just another religion. And no, i don't see any religion as evil. it can be dislikable, such as Jehova's Witnesses "ding dong! good news? slam!". humans can't decide on their own what is evil, it;'s a preprogrammed moral database that's hard to override that tells us good and evil, and i certainly don't now anyone outside an all-enveloping religion such as mormonism who thinks anyreligion can be 'evil'

and remember - Jesus saves, but the rest of you take full 16D6 fire damage

and yes, i too play D&D. mormons are free to blam me for being a devil worshipper, i take it in my stride as a follower of Nehrull :p

well that's my two cents, plus a full twenty quid's worth of PHB, i'll stop the geekiness now or you'll need a will save at DC16 vs boredom :D