NationStates Jolt Archive

Why do we feel the need to debate religion? I personally don’t understand it. Either you have blind faith that God exists or you don’t it’s simple as that. Since it is your choice then what does it matter what others think or feel about it. I personally feel that you argue this for two reasons maybe others. One you are insecure about your religion or choice in not believing and argue to see if you’re right, or still feel that way. Or you just flat out don’t care and want to belittle other people to make you feel better. And I guess I just don’t see the point in either. All that happens is name calling and arguments that go no where, either you have blind faith or not as simple as that. Both are fine and people I think need to understand that. Does any one agree with me or don’t that’s fine but why, or why do you feel it should be argued.

The fact that your nation's name is HardNippledom supercedes anything you just said. That's funny but weird, funny... but weird.

I really hope you get deleted for both your idiotic name, and idiotic rant.

I really hope you get deleted for both your idiotic name, and idiotic rant.

I agree I should be deleted. I asked a question and so far havn't been answered. and have been insulted twice good for you guys.

Well, there's a difference between arguing and discussing.

Personally, I enjoy religious discussions, so long as everyone's coming to the table with an open mind and a sincere desire to understand the experiences of others. If it's just another "God Sucks Like The Big Sky Fairy He Is/Burn In Hell You Athiest Whoremonger" thing, you're right and there's little point.

If, however, people are genuinely interested in discussing the wonderful multiplicity and persistance of human belief, then there's always a chance to learn. A good religious discussion makes you question what you believe which allows you to either discard a notion that no longer works or reaffirm your belief on a particular topic. Hopefully, everyone goes away with a greater understanding of their own spiritual position and, if not that, at least a greater understanding of and an increased empathy for their fellow humans.

On a spiritual note, I believe that a divine spark exists in all of us. Therefore, truly talking and, this is important, listening to the beliefs of others is, in a way, a direct communion with God.

Of course, if it's all just so much yelling, I'm more than willing to mix a martini and enjoy the show.

How come religious people get offended when you question why they believe in what they believe in?

The main reason we feel like debating religion is because people keep starting threads on it.

How come religious people get offended when you question why they believe in what they believe in?

Well, I don't think truly religious people who have an understanding of why they believe what they believe do.

There's also an issue with tone and how one asks the question. If all you're doing is asking the question in preparation to lash into the person who may be trying to give you a serious answer...well, that gets old. I mean, the converse is true as well, with theists not trying to understand where an athiest or agnostic is coming from and instead just trying to find something to pin their next argument on.

The main reason we feel like debating religion is because people keep starting threads on it.

Viva La Post Count!

How come religious people get offended when you question why they believe in what they believe in?
You probably address them with a smug, arrogant tone. If you trully wanted to discuss someones religion and asked an honest question, I strongly doubt anyone would be offended.

How do I get my nation's name changed to Atheist Whoremongers?

How do I get my nation's name changed to Atheist Whoremongers?

Copyrite infringement! I need a RIAA representative! I NEED A RIAA REPRESENTATIVE!!!!

Well, there's a difference between arguing and discussing.

Personally, I enjoy religious discussions, so long as everyone's coming to the table with an open mind and a sincere desire to understand the experiences of others. If it's just another "God Sucks Like The Big Sky Fairy He Is/Burn In Hell You Athiest Whoremonger" thing, you're right and there's little point.

If, however, people are genuinely interested in discussing the wonderful multiplicity and persistance of human belief, then there's always a chance to learn. A good religious discussion makes you question what you believe which allows you to either discard a notion that no longer works or reaffirm your belief on a particular topic. Hopefully, everyone goes away with a greater understanding of their own spiritual position and, if not that, at least a greater understanding of and an increased empathy for their fellow humans.

On a spiritual note, I believe that a divine spark exists in all of us. Therefore, truly talking and, this is important, listening to the beliefs of others is, in a way, a direct communion with God.

Of course, if it's all just so much yelling, I'm more than willing to mix a martini and enjoy the show.

I agree with this idea but a questioning of beliefs i find different then the questioning whether or not there is a god. Because this is a question for each person on his own to come to. I think only when this has been done can there be a discussion, or at least a reasonable one.

I don't think religion should be debated. Because no what, you're going to offend someone, or get some moron in who just wants to piss people off, and then everyone's gonna start bashing everyone's beliefs using tired stereotypes.
It always turns out the same.

Why do we debate religion simple it is a organisation that provides socal and moral guidelines to those who follow them and if you want to go further the fate of your soul is at risk. We are obligated as a person to look at the facts hear out the arguements and make a choice in the matter. You may not be persuaded by the other side in the debate, hell you may not even be in the debate but after hearing what the other side has to offer and presenting your arguement you will either find that you are right and win people over to your side, find out you were wrong and change you point of view, or simply come to an impass where no one admits their wrong and your beliefs are strengthened because of the debate. You say why debate religion. I say why not.

There is no reason to debate the basis for religion or different ideologies. But debating the meanings of religious texts and teachings is a good practice.

And I like your name, Super-Power is just jealous cause his name is unimaginative.

How do I get my nation's name changed to Atheist Whoremongers?

You cannot change your nation name, you will have to start a new nation.

I agree with this idea but a questioning of beliefs i find different then the questioning whether or not there is a god. Because this is a question for each person on his own to come to. I think only when this has been done can there be a discussion, or at least a reasonable one.

Well, I'm not sure I completely understand your point. I agree that each person must come to their own spiritual understanding primarily on their own, but part of the journey is comparing your experiences with those of others. Even if others have decided that, for them, the concept of divinity is either not relevant or not feasable, the path they took to that conclusion can have enormous impact on someone who's decided differently or someone who's still questioning.

I think you're saying that, before you can talk about specifics, you have to all agree that divinity exists. I don't think this is necessarily true.

Well, I'm not sure I completely understand your point. I agree that each person must come to their own spiritual understanding primarily on their own, but part of the journey is comparing your experiences with those of others. Even if others have decided that, for them, the concept of divinity is either not relevant or not feasable, the path they took to that conclusion can have enormous impact on someone who's decided differently or someone who's still questioning.

I think you're saying that, before you can talk about specifics, you have to all agree that divinity exists. I don't think this is necessarily true.

I guess what i'm saying is that you have to pick an idea before you come to a debate. you have to have an idea of what side your on this might change but to start you have to make the first choice on your own, and thats do i believe in a higher being or not then you can discuss effetivly. this doesn't have to be the only way and it might not work for everyone. I'm just a debater and it seems you need to have a starting point that you came to on your own.

And I like your name, Super-Power is just jealous cause his name is unimaginative.

Thanks been my online name since i started playing Counter-Strike. way back that seems. and it has become more meaningful when i got engaged to girl name (Dom)inique.

Thanks been my online name since i started playing Counter-Strike. way back that seems. and it has become more meaningful when i got engaged to girl name (Dom)inique.
Lmao.

Thanks been my online name since i started playing Counter-Strike. way back that seems. and it has become more meaningful when i got engaged to girl name (Dom)inique.

Does she frequently get hard nipples? Are they always hard?

Does she frequently get hard nipples? Are they always hard?


well when i'm around....wait wait this is off topic. I think.

I guess what i'm saying is that you have to pick an idea before you come to a debate. you have to have an idea of what side your on this might change but to start you have to make the first choice on your own, and thats do i believe in a higher being or not then you can discuss effetivly. this doesn't have to be the only way and it might not work for everyone. I'm just a debater and it seems you need to have a starting point that you came to on your own.

Okay, I see what you're saying. I think the issue here is one of intent. I was also a debater in high school and college and the first thing I realized was that, in the real world, there's never a "winner". There are no timekeepers, no flowcharts, no affirmative and negative positions. Okay, maybe to lawyers, but that's their thing and I'll happily leave them to it.

There are simply ideas for the rest of us and the way we broaden our understanding of those ideas is by exchanging information with others who hold different ideas. Debate is excellent for sharpening your critical thinking skills, but if what you're seeking is a deeper understanding of a particular issue, then it's actually sort of inimical to that process.

Now, in the case of spirituality and religion, everyone has some idea of where they fall. They may not hold that position very strongly, but most people have some conceptualization of their own spirituality, even if it's only to say, "Well, it doesn't really affect me one way or the other." So pretty much anyone comes to the table with a starting position. At least, in my opinion they do. Sometimes people who are still largely undecided provide the greatest insights because they're approaching the issue from a completely fresh perspective.

snipp.

Ok now we are starting to see things on the same page. Now is the discussion about beliefs and interpretations of religion (like bibles or holy books.) or is it does god exsists and can you debate that.

Ok now we are starting to see things on the same page. Now is the discussion about beliefs and interpretations of religion (like bibles or holy books.) or is it does god exsists and can you debate that.

Can't it be all of the above? Again, I guess it comes down to intent. If you're wanting to slam someone else's position into the ground and win a trophy, well, then yes, you'd better have a pretty firm and defensible counter-position. If you're wanting to garner experience of another person's life, then of course anyone can discuss any issue at any given moment of time.

Why do we feel the need to debate religion? I personally don’t understand it. Either you have blind faith that God exists or you don’t it’s simple as that. Since it is your choice then what does it matter what others think or feel about it. I personally feel that you argue this for two reasons maybe others. One you are insecure about your religion or choice in not believing and argue to see if you’re right, or still feel that way. Or you just flat out don’t care and want to belittle other people to make you feel better. And I guess I just don’t see the point in either. All that happens is name calling and arguments that go no where, either you have blind faith or not as simple as that. Both are fine and people I think need to understand that. Does any one agree with me or don’t that’s fine but why, or why do you feel it should be argued.

(a) Religion, or at least true religion, is not blind faith.

(b) There is much more to a religion than a simple belief in God. That is simply the foundation upon which a religion will be based.

(c) Debating religion is useful to religion, as it forces you to examine your beliefs and listen to the beliefs of others. Without looking at all the possibilities, there is no way to find truth.

How come religious people get offended when you question why they believe in what they believe in?

If you are truly asking because you want to know, the only people who will get offended are those who are weak of faith and have no answer for the question.

Ok now we are starting to see things on the same page. Now is the discussion about beliefs and interpretations of religion (like bibles or holy books.) or is it does god exsists and can you debate that.

The problem with debating the existence of a deity is that it is an axiomatic question. If you approach the debate from the axiom that there is, then you cannot be convinced by anything that there is not. If you approach it from the side that there is no deity, you will nothing can ever convince you otherwise.

Now, a discussion of beliefs can be held on either side, or with no regards to the existence or non-existence of any given deity.

(a) Religion, or at least true religion, is not blind faith.

(b) There is much more to a religion than a simple belief in God. That is simply the foundation upon which a religion will be based.

(c) Debating religion is useful to religion, as it forces you to examine your beliefs and listen to the beliefs of others. Without looking at all the possibilities, there is no way to find truth.

What is true religion. To believe in God you have to have blind faith. to debate religion with a person who does not believe in god would then be pointless in a sense. and point C is a good one.

The problem with debating the existence of a deity is that it is an axiomatic question. If you approach the debate from the axiom that there is, then you cannot be convinced by anything that there is not. If you approach it from the side that there is no deity, you will nothing can ever convince you otherwise.

Now, a discussion of beliefs can be held on either side, or with no regards to the existence or non-existence of any given deity.

Why does it necessarily have to be axiomatic? To discuss or even debate the existance of a diety does not, seemingly, require a definite belief one way or the other.

The problem with debating the existence of a deity is that it is an axiomatic question. If you approach the debate from the axiom that there is, then you cannot be convinced by anything that there is not. If you approach it from the side that there is no deity, you will nothing can ever convince you otherwise.

Now, a discussion of beliefs can be held on either side, or with no regards to the existence or non-existence of any given deity.

SO a debate on god exsistance is pointless is what your saying. but then can you debate effectively against a belief system with out god.

How come religious people get offended when you question why they believe in what they believe in?


oh sooooo true ;)

What is true religion.

To truly be religious, you must have your own beliefs, having examined them and come to them on your own. Otherwise, you have faith in human beings, rather than faith in any deity.

To believe in God you have to have blind faith.

Not really. Those who believe in God typically believe they have evidence which leads them to do so. Those who do not believe either interpret that evidence differently, or have never seen it.

to debate religion with a person who does not believe in god would then be pointless in a sense.

Not really. Some of my best debates, from which I have garnered quite a bit of knowledge, have been with my atheist boyfriend. In order to have such a debate, you must first state whether the debate will assume a deity, or assume that there is not one, but someone actually interested in debating will have no problem arguing from either point of view.

and point C is a good one.

Thanks =)

oh sooooo true ;)

Personally i'm a diest and believe strongly in that but if you don't agree then that fine and i think thats true of the majority.

Naturally, religion shouldn'y be discussed, but at the same time it should...

Usually people should make their own decisions and should feel proud of it. But many beleive it is a wrong religion, Eg. Christianty beleive Santinism is wrong than other religions do, and should be converted in time when they die. (Excuse my French but...) I say they should F*ck off!

However, we should have little discussion too. We humans have an incapiable brain that doesn't store all of the info. given. We may beleive witchcraft is evil, but it really isn't its all in their religion beleifs (i know this because...well... you know...). If we explain it, the chances of becoming more clear accelarate quickly.

In the end, its a both0both type of issue.

Thank You...

Why does it necessarily have to be axiomatic?

It is, by its very nature, axiomatic.

To discuss or even debate the existance of a diety does not, seemingly, require a definite belief one way or the other.

Debating the existence is futile. There either is or there is not, and we cannot prove this or find measurable, repeatable evidence either way.

What is true religion.

That's a pretty loaded question. I would assert that "true religion" is the same as "ideal religion" which I would then define as a given set of practices and procedures which give context to a specific belief system. I'm sort of interested to know exactly what Dem meant by that as well.


To believe in God you have to have blind faith.

Not necessarily. It requires faith, given, but to claim that such faith automatically has to be blind is stretching things. Any human action requires a certain amount of faith. For me to walk across the room, I have to have faith that my muscles will perform the correct procedures required and that nothing will interfere with my progress. Given, such faith is pretty minimal for most of us, because we have millions of successful attempts to indicate that our next effort will probably have a happy ending. However, for someone who's been paralized and is struggling to regain mobility, that faith increases exponentially. They may even have to maintain faith that they can do it in the face of doctors saying they can't.

Human faith is an amazing thing and can be easily abused. However, judicious exercise of it is one of the most impressive things we can do as a species.

HardNippledom and BerkylvaniaII, I'm (decently) sorry for jumping in to the discussion...

I agree with, unless I've missread your posts, both of you that a discusion joined for the sole purpus of "winning", either by trying to ridecule the other(s), or intentional and deliberate convertion, is unacceptable.

I like to discuss religion(s) (despite but within my limited knowledge of many), spirituallity and... related subjects. And I do with the intent to educate... That is, educate myself, not others, though most of those I've discussed religion, faith and spirituallty have been of the same view as me and thus they have "used" me to gain a bit more knowledge/insight and/or wisdom.

Now is the discussion about beliefs and interpretations of religion (like bibles or holy books.) or is it does god exsists and can you debate that.
I've come to the understanding that this thread is about neither of the above questions, but rather: Should religions, faiths, spirituality and similar topics be open for discussion?
To which my answer is: Yes, if done in a civilised manner...

Though, I wouldn't mind if this thread turned into a jovial and pleasant discussion about:
< insert favourite line from (least) favourite scripture >
or
< insert strangest analogy or description from text of choice >
as long as I may air just one dear view about such things:
"Religion, Faith and Spirituallity should be allowed to be fun. It might not always be, but the possibility should freely be there."

To truly be religious, you must have your own beliefs, having examined them and come to them on your own. Otherwise, you have faith in human beings, rather than faith in any deity.

I think that was my idea of taking a starting point to then be able to debate.



Not really. Those who believe in God typically believe they have evidence which leads them to do so. Those who do not believe either interpret that evidence differently, or have never seen it.

This is a toss up for me. I think Blind faith is implied becasue you can not really know God exsist. But i see your point and being religious i know what your tring to say.



Not really. Some of my best debates, from which I have garnered quite a bit of knowledge, have been with my atheist boyfriend. In order to have such a debate, you must first state whether the debate will assume a deity, or assume that there is not one, but someone actually interested in debating will have no problem arguing from either point of view.

This is what i'm saying you can't debate with one on each side it just doesn't work.

Debating the existence is futile. There either is or there is not, and we cannot prove this or find measurable, repeatable evidence either way.


Well, true, I suppose. I'm getting debate and discussion confused again. For a debate, there must be clear and definite positions that are antithetical. Discussion doesn't require this.

[QUOTE=Jakonidom]snipp.[QUOTE]

I think your on the right track. right now the discussion seems to be how a discussion can take place and what rules or boundries their should be. it's been good so far if you want to join in. i think if we find it is possible then another thread could be made.

Correct me if i'm wrong anybody.

I think you're right...

And I would have written my earlier post stating as much if I hadn't been so slow in posting. But never mind that.

I have tried a few times to talk about religious matters with "hardcore belivers", i.e. people who were convinced they knew the one and only possible truth, with less than sterling results.
I've had discussions with people with a strong faith in their god, without trouble, because they were able to, like myself, admit that they didn't know "the ONE TRUE faith, only THEIR faith".

I think that before entering a discussion about spirituality and religion one have to concede two things:
* "my view might only be right for me"
* "I will listen to the view of the other(s)"

With that one can discuss religion freely. Or as freely as common courtecy and the medium allows.