NationStates Jolt Archive

DUDE

WHERES MY CHRISTON

WHERE IS IT

CHRISTONS ROCK

DUDE

WHERES MY CHRISTON

WHERE IS IT

CHRISTONS ROCK

Um WTF si there any point to these 2 statements

"We Moderns think we are so damn smart. It is pure arrogance to think we are all that different from our ancestors. They were pretty damn smart, too."

I'm not saying we're different. I'm saying that, even though they may very well have been every bit as clever as we are, they hadn't the means for figuring out just how things work. Progress takes time. Today, time has passed - we've come further.

I never said you're ignorant, I just said you should think of how hard Christian life really is today. You get called arrogant, pushy, ignorant, moronic, a dumbass, wannabes, fanatics, misled, retarded - the list goes on - all because of prejudice. and that's just the verbal abuse.

For instance, here in New Zealand with this gay marriage crap, the members of a church protested in front of Parliament, along with a great group of people outnumbering them about two to one, and only they get labelled as haters and hypocrits, and are dismissed. That, imho, strikes at the very heart of my faltering hope for the rest of Humanity.I'm not sure whether I find this Christian persecution complex fascinating or depressing. You appear to be complaining that a group of people, attempting to directly inflict their religious views upon the rest of New Zealand, were dismissed.

Well, good. You really should realise that being labelled arrogant, pushy and ignorant are not unwarranted insults if you are, in fact, being arrogant, pushy and ignorant. I suspect you'll find that if you go about your Christianity in a private and personal way you won't be harrassed by anyone outside the lunatic fringe. It's only when you pretend that your beliefs have relevance to the rest of humanity that the rest of humanity takes exception.

In short: Christian life only needs to be hard if you insist on trying to enforce it onto the disinterested. You are not persecuted for your beliefs. You are not bravely standing firm against a rabid horde of atheists hell-bent upon your destruction. You are not treated unfairly.

You are a Christian, which is fine; and meddling, which is not.

I'm not sure whether I find this Christian persecution complex fascinating or depressing. You appear to be complaining that a group of people, attempting to directly inflict their religious views upon the rest of New Zealand, were dismissed.

Well, good. You really should realise that being labelled arrogant, pushy and ignorant are not unwarranted insults if you are, in fact, being arrogant, pushy and ignorant. I suspect you'll find that if you go about your Christianity in a private and personal way you won't be harrassed by anyone outside the lunatic fringe. It's only when you pretend that your beliefs have relevance to the rest of humanity that the rest of humanity takes exception.

In short: Christian life only needs to be hard if you insist on trying to enforce it onto the disinterested. You are not persecuted for your beliefs. You are not bravely standing firm against a rabid horde of atheists hell-bent upon your destruction. You are not treated unfairly.

You are a Christian, which is fine; and meddling, which is not.

well said. i don't care what religion people want to practice, so long as they don't expect me to practice it or to give up my rights to accomodate their personal beliefs. if Christians were willing to play by the same rules as every other religious and secular belief system then they would have no problems, but they seem to expect everybody to follow their rules and play their games...i don't understand why they are surprised when this kind of selfish, arrogant, ignorant behavior gets them ridiculed and disliked.

Boo hoo hoo, boo hoo hoo! :rolleyes:

I think It's pretty funny that you all are arguing about what babies beleive. It's like you think It actually matters. Evan funnier is that some of you pretend to know what babies think, like one of them told you or something :D

D. People who believe in christianity are not mentally retarded. Just most of them believe in it because their parents were, or because they are afraid of damnation, etc. Most christians are very bad christians in a strict sense.

That is so completely untrue. Indeed the same could be said about every other religion in that case (including atheism).

Essentially, Christianity presents an important historical story and moral code. Maybe more "blind faith" atheists should check this stuff out sometimes and we wouldn't have as many immoral, selfish, idiotic people in the world.

As a side note (not entirely related, but along similar lines): How people can write off particular religions such as Christianity, yet believe whole heartedly in others based on bullshit (such as astrology, power of crystals etc) is beyond me. Basically there's scientific evidence that says they are bs, but many so called "intelligent" people follow it blindly and slam anyone who follows anything else (or questions what they believe)

I'm pretty sure that babies don't think about anything much, other than food and attention. I'm also pretty sure that a baby raised by wolves wouldn't be Christian, Muslim or of any other recognisable religion. Really, the idea that babies are predisposed to a particular religion or deity is demented.

This kind of thing is why I don't like religion. It makes people be stupid. I also can't understand how anyone believes in god, but whatever.

That is so completely untrue. Indeed the same could be said about every other religion in that case (including atheism).Eh? Where do people get their religion from, if not their parents or other environmental factors? Are they giving away religion in fortune cookies these days?

Essentially, Christianity presents an important historical story and moral code. Maybe more "blind faith" atheists should check this stuff out sometimes and we wouldn't have as many immoral, selfish, idiotic people in the world.I suppose it's theoretically possible, but it seems a rather far-fetched notion. Perhaps we'd be a bit better off if more people bothered to pay attention to the 'Be nice to each other' aspects of their religion?

As a side note (not entirely related, but along similar lines): How people can write off particular religions such as Christianity, yet believe whole heartedly in others based on bullshit (such as astrology, power of crystals etc) is beyond me. Basically there's scientific evidence that says they are bs, but many so called "intelligent" people follow it blindly and slam anyone who follows anything else (or questions what they believe)An interesting thing happens when you swap Christianity and new age stuff in your paragraph. And by 'an interesting thing' I mean 'nothing at all', which is in itself quite interesting.

A. Having people accept something means nothing. It does not validate anything.

B. Actually, people should not insult people of other gender, race, etc. The difference is, there are punishments for doing those things.

C. I was replying to your saying that if atheists actually looked up things on the bible, they would agree its valid. Im sure nobody is calling all christians mentally retarded.

D. Actually, thats very untrue. I dont know one atheist, including myself, who had atheist parents. There are no atheist churches, and there is no where to really get atheist pressure, except maybe from friends. On the contrary, I dont know one religious person who's parents are atheists.
Athiests protest too much about no God.Do you argue about something that you can not prove one way or another.Christians believe that there is something beyond the darkness. Athiests are afraid of the dark.It is easy to say there is no God ,then there is no accounting for your acts in life. There is always a way to get around this argument.One question; is an Athiest automatically an evolutionist?

This is repetitive...

Christianity: "Don't tread on me!"

Atheism: "Why not? You're artificial."

Christianity: "$@%&!"

Atheism: "&$#%!"


lmfao too true, too true in the end all this arguing gets us is a sore throat.
its endless one argument after another both sides had valid and truthfull points to make but thats realy the end of it.

Athiests protest too much about no God.Do you argue about something that you can not prove one way or another.There's not really much point in arguing against something that's proven, is there?

Christians believe that there is something beyond the darkness. Athiests are afraid of the dark.Errm, I'm afraid you're facing in the wrong direction on this one. If I were afraid of the dark, I'd want to think that there was someone watching over and protecting me. Atheism requires an acceptance of the fact that life is what it is and then it's over, with no eternal paradise beckoning at the end. The knowledge that death really is the end isn't exactly comforting.

One question; is an Athiest automatically an evolutionist?No.

Athiests protest too much about no God.Do you argue about something that you can not prove one way or another.Christians believe that there is something beyond the darkness. Athiests are afraid of the dark.It is easy to say there is no God ,then there is no accounting for your acts in life. There is always a way to get around this argument.One question; is an Athiest automatically an evolutionist?

And Theists talk too much about there being a god. Honestly you say that we cant prove there is a god I say we can look at the facts we have and make a decision off of that. And no Athiests are not afraid of the "Dark" christians are. Athiests say there is nothing after this life. Christians say there is an afterlife because the alternative is to horrible to imagine. Who is the one really scared?

Actually, athiesm doesn't necessarily have to even preclude a belief in the afterlife. All it needs is the assertion that there is no divine force guiding or involved in day to day matters. Continuation of consciousness after death is not implicitly ruled out by a lack of deity.

Actually, athiesm doesn't necessarily have to even preclude a belief in the afterlife. All it needs is the assertion that there is no divine force guiding or involved in day to day matters. Continuation of consciousness after death is not implicitly ruled out by a lack of deity.

I know i just felt like replying to that guys generalized response that atheists are afraid of the so called "Dark".

Stop whining.

I am now getting very fed up with the pesistance of Anti-Chrisitan feeling on this forum. It wasn't so bad previously when it was merely interlectuall banter but in recent times I can recall at least three occations when I have seen Christians compared to the mentally retarded for their beliefs. That is unacceptable. Theology and the belief in God is one that is intellectually valid, if you people who constantly dismiss it would actually study it. You may disagree with the idea, that is fine. But you must accept it as one that is valid, and not dismiss it as being akin to being mentally retarded. That is insulting to over one third of the planets population. I would ask those who constantly insult Chrisitanity to have a little introspective and ask themselves why. Why is Chrisitanity such an affront to you.

I am totaly backing you up on this man. I am a firm believer in Christ, and I do not understand why people question the certainty of God. Any1 plz TG me if u have an opinion on this. :) :)

I am totaly backing you up on this man. I am a firm believer in Christ, and I do not understand why people question the certainty of God. Any1 plz TG me if u have an opinion on this. :) :)

Because God's existance is uncertain.

I am now getting very fed up with the pesistance of Anti-Chrisitan feeling on this forum. It wasn't so bad previously when it was merely interlectuall banter but in recent times I can recall at least three occations when I have seen Christians compared to the mentally retarded for their beliefs. That is unacceptable. Theology and the belief in God is one that is intellectually valid, if you people who constantly dismiss it would actually study it. You may disagree with the idea, that is fine. But you must accept it as one that is valid, and not dismiss it as being akin to being mentally retarded. That is insulting to over one third of the planets population. I would ask those who constantly insult Chrisitanity to have a little introspective and ask themselves why. Why is Chrisitanity such an affront to you.
Because believing in anything without question is stupid. The average Christian doesn't question the bible, they take it. That means they're idiots. Simple.

>>> I do not think that Christianity is, in any way, 'valid'. Just because YOU believe in it... that doesn't give it ANY reality, significance, importance or validity.


that being said the same goes for ANY other belief in this world.

I am totaly backing you up on this man. I am a firm believer in Christ, and I do not understand why people question the certainty of God. Any1 plz TG me if u have an opinion on this. :) :)

Because questioning is how we learn. Because if God exists and He is responsible for our creation, then He is certainly responsible for our inquisitiveness and, therefore, to not practice that inquisitiveness is to thumb our nose at God. Because any God that can not survive judicious questioning, even of His very existance, wasn't a very good God to begin with.

Because God's existance is uncertain.

Well, to be fair, the whole of existance is uncertain. Particularly if reality is no more than an agreed-upon baseline of experience that we have to endorse in order to get anything done.

Not saying we shouldn't question God, mind you. Even as a highly religious person, I firmly believe that any God worth my time and belief is capable of sustaining my questioning. Just that perhaps we should question reality as a whole, to be fair.

And no, I am not currently stoned. A little drunk, perhaps...

Actually, athiesm doesn't necessarily have to even preclude a belief in the afterlife. All it needs is the assertion that there is no divine force guiding or involved in day to day matters. Continuation of consciousness after death is not implicitly ruled out by a lack of deity.
so every thing that happens is an accident ,even your arguments :)

Why is Chrisitanity such an affront to you.

Simple, the religious right has taken it upon themselves to tell others how they must live. I have a problem with this, as do many others. Unfortunantly, those who go about thier lives and hold thier beliefs to themselves catch shit for these radicals.

so every thing that happens is an accident ,even your arguments :)

You know, sticking a smiley face on the end of a scentence does nothing to obliviate it's inherant snarkyness.

I never said word one about accidents, just that atheism does not necessarily preclude belief in some form of "afterlife".

If you're trying to make a point, try harder.

Woah, woah, woah. Slow down just a mite. There's a small difference between church and school. Okay, chromosomes and genes are a proven scientific fact. It's easy to prove they exist. Look under a powerful enough microscope and you can see them.

God's existence cannot be proven. This DOES NOT mean he does not exist. See, while faith and the Bible are not proof on their own, plenty of things have been theorised that were both ridiculed and unprovable in their time, that have now been proven true.

For example, quantum mechanics. Einstein himself said, "God does not play dice with the Universe." Well, with all respect to Einstein's brilliance, quantum mechanics happen to be the current functioning theory on the modern physical behavior of sub-atomic particles in the Universe.

One more clarification. (I've seen this sort of thing so many times, and not ONCE have I seen it corrected.) The word "Theory" in science means, basically, "A statement that has been supported so many times by scientific fact and evidence that it is accepted as the truth". It does not mean "a guess at the nature of the universe". The "Theory of Evolution" is the truth, not a guess at the nature of the universe. The "Theory of Gravity" has never been argued by Christians, and the Theory of Evolution has as much to support it, if not more. So there.

*Puts on flame-retardent suit*
Then why pray tell is it still called the theory of de-evolution,oops evolution :) which takes more faith, the theory that we came out the primevial slime, or the thought that there may have being some being behind our being here.Gravity is not a theory,it is a fact. jump off a cliff if you don't believe it :cool: Methinks we are just a little bit arrogant thinking we know so much about the universe, there is so much we don't know.The Big Bang theory purports that the universe is is expanding,expanding into what :rolleyes:

Then why pray tell is it still called the theory of de-evolution,oops evolution :)

What, no one's done this already? Here, allow me to give you some remedial science. Really, this is something you should have learned in middle school.

Evolution is not a "theory". Evolution happens, has happened and will continue to happen. So long as heritable change continues to occur in populations over time, evolution will continue to happen. It is still (somewhat incorrrectly) referred to as a "theory" because the exact mechanisms of that evolutionary process are, in places, unclear or uncertain. The specifics of this lead into a full explanation of macro and micro evolution which I have neither the time nor the energy to explain. Google it.

Tch, and here I thought Canada had a superior educational system to the US.


which takes more faith, the theory that we came out the primevial slime, or the thought that there may have being some being behind our being here.

Neither. They both take the exact same amount of faith. Of course, neither one is an accurate portrayal of events, so the question itself is irrelevant.


Gravity is not a theory,it is a fact. jump off a cliff if you don't believe it :cool:

Now jump off a cliff in the event horizon of a black hole...

The exact nature of gravity doesn't apply to your argument.


Methinks we are just a little bit arrogant thinking we know so much about the universe,

Well, someone's certainly arrogant, I'll give you that.


there is so much we don't know.

True, so why the resistance to finding out what we can?


The Big Bang theory purports that the universe is is expanding,expanding into what :rolleyes:

Into another thread as it's a completely different discussion.

Then why pray tell is it still called the theory of de-evolution,oops evolution :) which takes more faith, the theory that we came out the primevial slime, or the thought that there may have being some being behind our being here.Gravity is not a theory,it is a fact. jump off a cliff if you don't believe it :cool: Methinks we are just a little bit arrogant thinking we know so much about the universe, there is so much we don't know.The Big Bang theory purports that the universe is is expanding,expanding into what :rolleyes:

Boy you sure are good at reading! :rolleyes: I bow to the fact that you can read a whole paragraph and only see what you want to see. I explained what theory means. Perhaps I'll fetch my American Heritage Dictionary.

Okay, here we are. The definition of "Theory" from The American Heritage Dictionary, Third Editon:
a. Systematically organized knowledge applicable in a wide variety of circumstances, esp. a system of assumptions, principle, and rules of procedure devised to analyze, predict, or otherwise explain the nature or behavior of specified phonomena.
b. Such knowledge or such a system.

So, in case you couldn't understand the above, a THEORY is A FACT by SCIENTIFIC DEFINITION. SO. THERE.

The problem isn't with belief, or faith, or religion. The problem is that certain individuals think that their specific belief or faith or religion entitles them to be bigots.

Your belief system is yours alone. If someone asks you about it, by all means share. If not, keep your damn mouth shut. No-one likes a broken record.

If your belief is right for somebody, they will come to it of their own volition. Coercing someone with preaching or refutation is not honest, and it's not respectful, in spite of how much santimonious rhetoric you can provide.

I'm a theist and I while I think religious philosophy is pure speculation, I don't deny its significance in regard to existential dilemmas and spiritual fulfilment. However, to enforce your belief on another is denying their free-will. Spirituality is the indvidual's responsibility. Not the pastor's. Not the atheist's. Not the parent's. You can't lead someone to god. They have to choose it themselves.

Thankfully most people who are comfortable and confident in their belief aren't threatened by the belief of another person. The need to recite and affirm ones belief constantly to others does nothing but suggest a weak faith to those who are deeply faithful, regardless of what snippet of scripture you can use to justify it. People who can't accept Christianity or Atheism as acceptable paths for others to choose are bigots, and would do well to examine their need to denigrate others. If someone is making offensive and denigrating comments to you on any basis, you can always request moderation to step in. If you can't, perhaps we can extrapolate that you yourself are a bigot and entitled to a good dressing-down to get your back on the path of spiritual integrity.

If a theory is equivelent to a fact then why are they not listed as synonyms?

"People who can't accept Christianity or Atheism as acceptable paths for others to choose are bigots"

You must understand, because christians think those who do not follow christ will suffer eternal torment, they cannot consider atheism or any other religion as an acceptable path. if they do they are by thier own beleifs, heartless and uncaring.

Kind of... Theological thought seems to be a precursor to scientific thought.
Totaly not true! Religion developed separated from science. It's true that both influenced each other but it's because they aren't in vacum. Religion constantly changes and isn't about what science is.
OUR science is just OUR science based on OUR belives on how WE percive OUR reality. Because you BELIVE that science is ultimate doesn't mean that you must be right! It's just arrogance - every one who says "Christians are bad because they want to convert others" and later states that "science is superior to other believs" should stop and think what he is doing.

You must understand, because christians think those who do not follow christ will suffer eternal torment, they cannot consider atheism or any other religion as an acceptable path. if they do they are by thier own beleifs, heartless and uncaring.
AGAIN - it's not what CHRISTIAN think. It's what think SOME of them. Not even majority. Christians aren't only New Evangelists. I belive that they are totaly wrong, homophobical and dangerous BUT STILL I'm a Christian.

BIG LATTERS where used to highlight important words that many just don't notice. NOT for emotional expression.
[/QUOTE]

Boy you sure are good at reading! :rolleyes: I bow to the fact that you can read a whole paragraph and only see what you want to see. I explained what theory means. Perhaps I'll fetch my American Heritage Dictionary.

Okay, here we are. The definition of "Theory" from The American Heritage Dictionary, Third Editon:
a. Systematically organized knowledge applicable in a wide variety of circumstances, esp. a system of assumptions, principle, and rules of procedure devised to analyze, predict, or otherwise explain the nature or behavior of specified phonomena.
b. Such knowledge or such a system.

So, in case you couldn't understand the above, a THEORY is A FACT by SCIENTIFIC DEFINITION. SO. THERE.

I don't see where it says a theory is a fact. I do realize that it has the word assumptions and predict in it. But maybe I'm just stupid.

Tch, and here I thought Canada had a superior educational system to the US.

Like any system, some people fall through the cracks :D

I am now getting very fed up with the pesistance of Anti-Chrisitan feeling on this forum. It wasn't so bad previously when it was merely interlectuall banter but in recent times I can recall at least three occations when I have seen Christians compared to the mentally retarded for their beliefs. That is unacceptable. Theology and the belief in God is one that is intellectually valid, if you people who constantly dismiss it would actually study it. You may disagree with the idea, that is fine. But you must accept it as one that is valid, and not dismiss it as being akin to being mentally retarded. That is insulting to over one third of the planets population. I would ask those who constantly insult Chrisitanity to have a little introspective and ask themselves why. Why is Chrisitanity such an affront to you.

i agree
sign ur country's name if u agree:
flarfenugan
neo cannen

i agree
sign ur country's name if u agree:
flarfenugan
neo cannen
super-power

I don't see where it says a theory is a fact. I do realize that it has the word assumptions and predict in it. But maybe I'm just stupid.

The word "Theory" in science means, basically, "A statement that has been supported so many times by scientific fact and evidence that it is accepted as the truth".

*shrugs*

#289

The number of people who believe in any given thing hasn't anything to do with its validity. It might as well be completely wrong.

flarfenugan
neo cannen
super-power

I find that a little bit offensive, and I'll tell you why.

The issue of belief-related bigotry isn't specifically aimed at Christians. It's aimed at everyone. Instead of playing the victim, maybe you could report all ToS breaches to the mods, and examine why you're being attacked. Maybe something you've said has been taken out of context, or maybe you're too quick to take offence at the jabs of some flamebait n00b who wants to get a rise out of you. If it's just some moron troller, ignore them. Silence speaks far more than words do.

If you are being unfairly stereotyped, do something about it. No-one likes a whinger who moans about how tough things are and yet does nothing to change the situation. Go to the mods.

The more mature and open minded people on NS are extremely welcoming of alternative viewpoints. Those who aren't probably aren't worth bothering with, except via the mods. If you find that you, as an individual, are constantly under attack, maybe YOU are the common denominator. Maybe the way you're sharing your message is offensive and provocative to other posters, and maybe you should examine that. It seems to me that you want to turn this into an us and them issue, which does nothing but inflame the situation. Bigotry is everyone's responsibility. Your experience is no worse than the ridicule that any other individual gets for their beliefs. It makes me wonder if any of you read the more reasonable posts in this thread before you jumped onto a petition bandwagon. Check yourself before you play the victim. Don't declare every non-Christian or atheist as unreasonable and bigotted.

Because believing in anything without question is stupid. The average Christian doesn't question the bible, they take it. That means they're idiots. Simple.

Rearly. All the Christians I knew are extremely educated in Biblical history and have looked into it exaustively. This must be the US your talking about.

I wont even begin to list the crimes of athiestical governments (China, N.Korea etc) against religion. But please grave, do not pull out the "look what you have done in the past" card. I can equally well do that to you. Choose your style with more care


China is not an 'atheistic' government, and never has been. You are mistaking the supression of religion for Atheism.

The thing is - you are complaining about how badly Christians are treated, at the hands of Atheists... ignoring for a second, that Christians OUTNUMBER Atheists... since some Atheists have said something that you think equates to an insult.

Well, big deal.

At school, I got detentions for not attending Christian festivals.

Was that right? Was that fair?

I just don't see the big deal, Neo.

Christians spend their whole time telling us Atheists that we are sinners and will burn in hell. Christians believe that Atheists are ignorant of the word of god. And yet, I don't hear you complaining about THAT.


Its not just because I believe in it. It is because it has historical and ethical validity of itself. Now while I dont expect you to agree with it, in the same way that Socialists and Conservatives dont agree, you can at least respect it.


No. Christianity has no ethical or historical validity... it is just something that 'is'. It doesn't get more 'valid' by just being old.

I do respect Christianity, Neo... but, not 'christianity'.


And I can respect that to an extent. All I am asking is for you to afford me and all Christians the same respect. I do not expect to be showered down as mentally retarded, along with all my people.


"My" people? You realise, of course, that - if you are following Christ's example, I AM your people?


No you are not. Religion is clearly something that has a strong force of logic behind it. If it were not, it wouldnt be so widespread as an idea. Some at this point have compared cigerates to religion, being widespread. But they have a chemical depencency factor and are objects. I am talking about an idea. I recomend you read Ravi Zacharias's "Jesus above other Gods" as I am at present. I have a feelling it may show you a great many things.


Logical fallacy - something is not true, just because it is popular.

Thanks for the recommendation, but, since we are discussing Christianity, I recommend you read The Bible.


Christianity does not seek to control people. Can you actually prove that somehow. It sets out life principles and a moral code, ways that you should life, but if you examine all of these there is nothing that they ultimately benefit that would set them down on people. When someone or something tries to control something or someone then there must be a reason. If you examine Christianity, you will see there is nothing that it benefits by implying its "controling" lifestyle code on short of God.

Because organised religions are all poor, yes? And do not get special tax status?

No wait... that's not true is it...?

Well, what do you know...? I have just found you some benefits.

Explain to me, Neo - why the Church feels it necessary to oppose gay-nonm-christians from getting married to each other?

The ONLY reason they might object to such unions, is if they GAIN by stopping them, or LOSE by allowing them.

Thus - benefit is proved.

But, one only has to look at the Western laws, and the Western politics, to see the efforts at 'control' of the modern church.

Look backa few hundred years, and you'll see just how controlling the Church can be, when it is allowed to.

I think It's pretty funny that you all are arguing about what babies beleive. It's like you think It actually matters. Evan funnier is that some of you pretend to know what babies think, like one of them told you or something :D

First: It does matter, to an extent. The idea that we all have some common religion 'built in' is clearly false, if newborn children do not have any religion UNTIL they are taught it.

Second: I take it you have no children.

That is so completely untrue. Indeed the same could be said about every other religion in that case (including atheism).

Essentially, Christianity presents an important historical story and moral code. Maybe more "blind faith" atheists should check this stuff out sometimes and we wouldn't have as many immoral, selfish, idiotic people in the world.

As a side note (not entirely related, but along similar lines): How people can write off particular religions such as Christianity, yet believe whole heartedly in others based on bullshit (such as astrology, power of crystals etc) is beyond me. Basically there's scientific evidence that says they are bs, but many so called "intelligent" people follow it blindly and slam anyone who follows anything else (or questions what they believe)

1) Atheism isn't a religion.

2) Most Atheists HAVE 'checked out' Christianity, or some other religion... often several of the big religions.

3) Immoral, selfish, idiotic.... not values constrained to the Atheist.

4) "Crystals" are not a religions.

5) Where is the scientific evidence that says that "power of crystals" is "bs"?

Perhaps you are unaware, but power CAN be stored in a crystal...

Let me direct you to a source related to piezoelectric energy conversion...

Then why pray tell is it still called the theory of de-evolution,oops evolution :) which takes more faith, the theory that we came out the primevial slime, or the thought that there may have being some being behind our being here.Gravity is not a theory,it is a fact. jump off a cliff if you don't believe it :cool: Methinks we are just a little bit arrogant thinking we know so much about the universe, there is so much we don't know.The Big Bang theory purports that the universe is is expanding,expanding into what :rolleyes:

Gravity IS a theory... it is just the most convincing theory to explain observable phenomena.

Jump off a cliff... you fall to the earth hundreds of feet below... does this PROVE gravity?

No - but 'gravity' explains the phenomena...

But then, so would "The Earth Sucks".

1) Atheism isn't a religion.

Depends on the athiest in question, I suppose. When an atheist says, "God does not exist because I have seen no convincing evidence to support his existance," the statement itself assumes a certain amount of faith in one's own experience. It is highly doubtful that any given atheist has examined all of the literature or completely assimilated the whole of religious experience. The faith the atheist must demonstrate is in their own experience being of a high enough quantity and quality to make a judgement that they can't know for certain. To a certain way of thinking, any exercise of faith can be interpreted as religion.


2) Most Atheists HAVE 'checked out' Christianity, or some other religion... often several of the big religions.

Well, that's a blanket statement that isn't necessarily true. One might as well say, "Most Christians HAVE 'checked out' Atheism, or some other belief...often several of the big religions." That's also most likely not true. The difference is in intent and acceptance. One can not claim to have truly participated in a belief system if one does not truly experience it. I've read many books on Wicca, talked with many practicioners and have friends who are Wiccan. That doesn't mean I would ever be able to say I was a Wiccan, even though, at heart, I think it's a stirringly beautiful religion.


3) Immoral, selfish, idiotic.... not values constrained to the Atheist.

Well, that's very true.


4) "Crystals" are not a religions.

No, but they are part of the umbrella category "New Age" which is a sort of religion, in that it has a collection of beliefs and practices, requiring faith, which are used to commune with deity.


5) Where is the scientific evidence that says that "power of crystals" is "bs"?

Perhaps you are unaware, but power CAN be stored in a crystal...

True again. Who knows? There may be something to crystals

Totaly not true! Religion developed separated from science. It's true that both influenced each other but it's because they aren't in vacum. Religion constantly changes and isn't about what science is.
OUR science is just OUR science based on OUR belives on how WE percive OUR reality. Because you BELIVE that science is ultimate doesn't mean that you must be right! It's just arrogance - every one who says "Christians are bad because they want to convert others" and later states that "science is superior to other believs" should stop and think what he is doing.



Where is your evidence, friend?

What I can see, seems to imply that most cultures derive a very basic form of science, and a very basic form of theology... and the two are often pretty much entangled.

It then seems that the cultures that journey further into theology learn new 'tools' of logic and thought, that seem to enable them to progress in more practical spheres.

Examples: Egyptian, Roman, Greek societies... the advance in science seemingly running alongside the increasing complexity of the theology.

Rearly. All the Christians I knew are extremely educated in Biblical history and have looked into it exaustively. This must be the US your talking about.

This, I know for a fact, is untrue.

Assuming, of course, that you (Neo) are one of the Christians you 'knew'... since, I know for a fact, you have yet to finish reading even the Bible, itself.

Hardly 'exhaustive'.

Or have you actually finally finished the bible, Neo?

Um WTF si there any point to these 2 statements


UHHHHH

NOOOO

Depends on the athiest in question, I suppose. When an atheist says, "God does not exist because I have seen no convincing evidence to support his existance," the statement itself assumes a certain amount of faith in one's own experience. It is highly doubtful that any given atheist has examined all of the literature or completely assimilated the whole of religious experience. The faith the atheist must demonstrate is in their own experience being of a high enough quantity and quality to make a judgement that they can't know for certain. To a certain way of thinking, any exercise of faith can be interpreted as religion.


Indeed - it does depend on the Atheist.

Although... by the definition of 'religion', I'm not sure even the most adamant Atheist counts as religious.... although they MIGHT display 'faith'.

I am an Atheist. I am an Implicit Atheist... which means I do not believe in god/gods.

I don't assert that 'god' is unreal... I make no assertions either way. I just don't believe in 'god'... in the same way I don't believe in 'aliens' or 'goblins'.

If anyone ever proves that any of those things exist, I'm sure I'll be a believer.

Implicit Atheists do not have 'faith' in the non-existence of 'god' (that is the domain of the Explicit Atheist)... they just don't 'buy' religion as sold.


Well, that's a blanket statement that isn't necessarily true. One might as well say, "Most Christians HAVE 'checked out' Atheism, or some other belief...often several of the big religions." That's also most likely not true. The difference is in intent and acceptance. One can not claim to have truly participated in a belief system if one does not truly experience it. I've read many books on Wicca, talked with many practicioners and have friends who are Wiccan. That doesn't mean I would ever be able to say I was a Wiccan, even though, at heart, I think it's a stirringly beautiful religion.


It's based on personal experience... almost every Atheist I have met has been part of an organised religion at some point... the same is true for the Agnostics I have known.

Thus - one could argue they had 'checked out' that religion quite well.

I also cannot claim to be Wiccan, although I have researched it a great deal, and met/discussed/debated with many Wiccans. I prefer their view of the world to most of the organised religions (An' it harm done, do as you will)... but I still just don't 'buy' their faith-based-components.


No, but they are part of the umbrella category "New Age" which is a sort of religion, in that it has a collection of beliefs and practices, requiring faith, which are used to commune with deity.


Not true... there is no concrete 'New Age' belief structure... no one belief, no one practice is 'required'... in fact, not all 'New Age' practitioners believe in 'deities'.

People have an unfortunate habit of lumping things together.


True again. Who knows? There may be something to crystals

There IS something to crystals... it would take quite a blinkered view to ignore the fact that there MIGHT be 'something'.

Funny, people must not insult racial groups, genders etc. I see no diffrence here.

I do apologise if anyone has already said this, but I frankly cannot be bothered to trawl through twenty pages of posts, and I do feel that this is important...

There is a huge difference here! People are born with their gender and race; it is an indelible part of their physical constitution. Religion, on the other hand, is a mental choice (pun most definitely intended). I am white, I am male; these things are (barring major surgury) unalterable. On the other hand, my beliefs are entirely of my own making, and I must accept responsibility for them. One cannot wriggle out of defending or justifying one's viewpoint simply because others share it.

I am now getting very fed up with the pesistance of Anti-Chrisitan feeling on this forum.

And I'm fed up with Christians whining about it.

Some people disagree with you. GET. OVER. IT.

It wasn't so bad previously when it was merely interlectuall banter but in recent times I can recall at least three occations when I have seen Christians compared to the mentally retarded for their beliefs. That is unacceptable.

Depending very, very slightly on context, such comparisons are inappropriate.

I do know of at least one occassion when the comparison was in the context of Christian's claiming to have seen manifestations of God and claiming other religions did not. Mental illness and other explanations for such "manifestations" were -- quite correctly -- raised.

Feel free to object. And report violations to the Mods.

But don't expect the rest of us to change our views or silence ourselves -- particularly when you feel the need to constantly raise the subject.

Theology and the belief in God is one that is intellectually valid, if you people who constantly dismiss it would actually study it.

Studied it. Extensively. At one point minored in Theology, thank you very much.

Find little or no intellectual validity to it. Does not mean smart and wise people cannot believe in it.

You may disagree with the idea, that is fine. But you must accept it as one that is valid, and not dismiss it as being akin to being mentally retarded.

No. We do not have to accept anything as valid. Particularly your superstitions.

Simply because you believe it to be valid does not make it so.

I agree that insults are inappropriate.

That is insulting to over one third of the planets population.

Appeal to Popularity.

But you feel free to insult the beliefs of others all the time. Like Muslims.

Remove the plank from thine own eye.

I would ask those who constantly insult Chrisitanity to have a little introspective and ask themselves why. Why is Chrisitanity such an affront to you.

You don't really want an answer to that -- you will complain I'm picking on your beliefs again.

Pride is a deadly sin. Your hubris about your religion is understandable, but don't expect everyone to agree.

im the last one!

oh no you're not. This hasn't finished yet..........
Hahahaha hehehehehe hohohohoho
I am Satan and this has got to continue NOW!!!!

Where is your evidence, friend?

Examples: Egyptian, Roman, Greek societies... the advance in science seemingly running alongside the increasing complexity of the theology.
Well... that's your interpetation. I stated before that there are many impacts of science on religion and otherwise. But still I won't agree that science is superior to religion. It is a way to explain the world but usually totaly different from scientific approach. It's just different paradigma.
I'm VERY interested in modern science (especially in chaos theory) as I'm still a beliver. Two different perceptions. Totally different. Evidence? Look on all those word-wars: sci vs. theo...

I do have prejudice versus Theists, especially Christians. I apologize for that. Because I grew up in the Bible Belt, in my head, all Christians are out to convert me. I don't have any problem with anyone believing whatever they believe, but I DO have a problem with someone trying to force their beliefs on me.

if someone comes up to you in the street, and tells you, you are a Christian, you are retarded, the maybe you should try to do something about it, but this is an internet forum. the rules of the real world do not apply here so if they continue there is nothing you can do about it, so stop whining, you are just going to make it worse for yourself, sometimes as a Christian, the only thing you can do about something is pray. there are many out there who claim to know God who dont, so they go out into the world and act however they want to and then say its okay im forgiven, this gives us a bad name, there are others who try to force God onto other ppl, this however forces ppl away from him, the best way to stop the ridicle is to follow The Greaest Commandment, and show yourself as nice to every one all ppl are seacrhing for God, some find him and some find other things, Satan knows the Bible beter than any man, and he can use it and you to push ppl away from God, but if you repect other peoples beliefs then they will respect yours, but by fighting and agrueing you are making yourself and other Christians look bad. ive rambled quite a bit so im going to shut up now, but nothing that is said on this or any other online forum, will change any one elses minds, so i ask

cant we all just get along.

Put it this way - people died for their beliefs. Would you die for a lie?

People who live a Christian life are not always better off than non-Christians, but Christians who obey God will be given what they want - a husband who loves them and will never leave them, for example.

Oh, and I know a girl aged 7/8 who is extremely on-fire for God. She may be young, but she's so into God, as is her slightly older brother. If you could see them you would have no doubts.

Final point - evil, sin, Satan etc. God loves us. But the only way he can love us is if we have free will - to listen to him or to ignore him. To sin or to obey him. If we had no free will how would he love us for obeying him?

Please do not post replies in this thread. Use another method.

a) Vietnam? Iraq? The Crusades? Dude, just because you die for a belief doesn't make the belief true. There are people out there who died because they were Muslim and believed in God. If the Islamic religion is true, how can the Christian religion be true as well?

b) Uh... ever read the Book of Job? Its in the Bible...

c) When I was seven I believed in the damned tooth fairy.

d) Or maybe he would love us to go about being individuals, doing good without drawing together and sacrificing our personal say in things in exchange for some mumbo jumbo promise of salvation from a mumbo jumbo hellish afterlife?

e) No.

As much as I agree with many things in the first post of this thread, the title just really strikes me as petulant. The only thing I can visualize is somebody stamping their foot and whining to stop being picked on. Sorry.

You sick ****, you actually aprove of that? Maybe you should come to the middle east where I live and be subjected to some of it. By god, I even know places where they will torture YOU because you are an atheist, but as Christians we disapprove of that. (unlike you :mad: )

Uhhhh.... Spanish Inquisition? Anyone?

Uhhhh.... Spanish Inquisition? Anyone?

You really call them Christians? I call them Nazis.

Uhhhh.... Spanish Inquisition? Anyone?

The king(Ferdinand) and queen(Isabella) did that and theat funded Columbus' voyage

Well... that's your interpetation. I stated before that there are many impacts of science on religion and otherwise. But still I won't agree that science is superior to religion. It is a way to explain the world but usually totaly different from scientific approach. It's just different paradigma.
I'm VERY interested in modern science (especially in chaos theory) as I'm still a beliver. Two different perceptions. Totally different. Evidence? Look on all those word-wars: sci vs. theo...

Curious... why did you take my post as saying that science was superior to theology?

I said that theological thought seems to be a precursor to scientific thought... that is no commentary on the relative 'quality' of either system.

And, yes - there has been exchange in both directions... both in the 'substance' of religion, and in the manner in which it is understood... e.g. Second Kings 2:21 "And he went forth unto the spring of the waters, and cast the salt in there, and said, Thus saith the LORD, I have healed these waters; there shall not be from thence any more death or barren land".... which clearly describes the same principle of water treatment still used to this date - i.e. reaction with 'salts' to settle out waste products.

And, ID is a (flawed) attempt to introduce scientific methodology into theological thought.

I agree that the paradigm created by solely scientific rationality, is very different to that created by theological belief... but I am not (here) contrasting the two in terms of superiority... both serve very different purposes.... or, at least, both SHOULD.

You really call them Christians? I call them Nazis.

I wish I thought you were kidding. As is, you are wrong in at least 3 humorous ways:

1. The Inquisition was undeniably Christian.

2. The Inquistors were not Nazis.

3. The Nazis were significantly Christian.

Je pense que tout le monde doit manger les yeux et dormir

Il y a une escale a Chicago. Puis, Passez a la douane. si tu n'as rien a declarer, C'est rapide!

Quoi? Qu'est-ce que tu dit, la?

1. The Inquisition was undeniably Christian.
Not totally true. You have to add that Inquistion was mostly created to deal with CHRISTIANS that were heretics.

Not totally true. You have to add that Inquistion was mostly created to deal with CHRISTIANS that where heretics.

No, they just forced the Jews to convert, leave the country, or be killed.

I am now getting very fed up with the pesistance of Anti-Chrisitan feeling on this forum. It wasn't so bad previously when it was merely interlectuall banter but in recent times I can recall at least three occations when I have seen Christians compared to the mentally retarded for their beliefs. That is unacceptable. Theology and the belief in God is one that is intellectually valid, if you people who constantly dismiss it would actually study it. You may disagree with the idea, that is fine. But you must accept it as one that is valid, and not dismiss it as being akin to being mentally retarded. That is insulting to over one third of the planets population. I would ask those who constantly insult Chrisitanity to have a little introspective and ask themselves why. Why is Chrisitanity such an affront to you.
While I dont think it was fair of them to act like that to you I DONT HAVE to accept anything

Not totally true. You have to add that Inquistion was mostly created to deal with CHRISTIANS that were heretics.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

While I dont think it was fair of them to act like that to you I HAVE to accept anything

Edit warning, UT... you DON'T have to accept anything....

:fluffle:

Edit warning, UT... you DON'T have to accept anything....

:fluffle:
Thank you kind sir you know what I mean to say better then I have a tendancy to say it latly :)

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

Well, to an extent, that's true. The inital papal inquisition was tatamount to extremely bloody infighting between Christian sects, namely the Cathars, the Waldensians, the Templars and pretty much anyone who had managed to piss off the Fourth Lateran Council, the Dominicans or the Franciscans.

Mind you, it quickly grew beyond that with the Protestants brought into focus in the 16th century and then the wholesale slaughter of the Spanish Inquisition.

Thank you kind sir you know what I mean to say better then I have a tendancy to say it latly :)

Lol. I just know what you MEAN... whether or not you actually SAY it. :D

Lol. I just know what you MEAN... whether or not you actually SAY it. :D
:) yup ... I got in this position (atheist agnostic) by not believing off hand (only after study) and continue to do that with all aspects of my life.

I may respect people having other viewpoints but I do not have to automaticaly accept them as valid

Well, to an extent, that's true. The inital papal inquisition was tatamount to extremely bloody infighting between Christian sects, namely the Cathars, the Waldensians, the Templars and pretty much anyone who had managed to piss off the Fourth Lateran Council, the Dominicans or the Franciscans.

Mind you, it quickly grew beyond that with the Protestants brought into focus in the 16th century and then the wholesale slaughter of the Spanish Inquisition.

<sigh>

I said this:


1. The Inquisition was undeniably Christian.


Which Arakaria said was "Not totally true."

Thank you for proving me right and Arakaria wrong. :D

<sigh>

I said this:




Which Arakaria said was "Not totally true."

Thank you for proving me right and Arakaria wrong. :D

Don't mention it. :)

You know what I don't get? The fact that everyone is getting as heated about this as they are all the other threads, only that the roles are reversed (christians trying to defend, with some others helping, others trying to beat them into the ground, with others helping) I mean... it's kind of childish and stupid, and not so much from this side but from all sides really. Everyone is making valid points, HOWEVER, skrewing them to fit their own deluded reasonings. Let me put it this way.

The guy who started this thread is right. Leave it alone guys. Yes, it's a belief, and though you don't believe it's right so what? By saying their wrong, and by trying to pull out resource X out of your hat to prove that it's wrong... your not proving your point, your proving his. I mean, common, It's childish to try and prove that somone is stupid/wrong in their beliefs, by pulling out your beliefs, or trying to pelt them with your own. It's like saying: Your wrong because I say you are.

So far I've seen nothing /but/ that. Oh and alot of off topic stuff, which I'll admit is funny. Secondly, no one here can rightfully attack another person's religion. Why? Because it's two completly different bases. EVERYTHING has flaws. To jab fingers at someone elses religion, and make fun, or whatever it is you want to call it, because it has flaws, well then guess what buddy-boy. Your jabbing fingers at yourself. Name one religion that is perfect, and I'll list at least one flaw with it, weither that flaw be in the sterotypical sence, or with the people itself.

I mean, it's like saying I'm right because I believe so, which only proves your own short-sightedness.

EDIT: This is not just for this thread by the way, but for all threads, but seeing as how this is the one I just got done with, why not post it here? If I wanted to be a freak, I'd post it all over the place. I'm not, but... *ehh* doubt anyone'll see it. People just don't seem to care.

:) yup ... I got in this position (atheist agnostic) by not believing off hand (only after study) and continue to do that with all aspects of my life.

I may respect people having other viewpoints but I do not have to automaticaly accept them as valid

This reminds me of something (the great) Dempublicents recently said:

"To truly be religious, you must have your own beliefs, having examined them and come to them on your own. Otherwise, you have faith in human beings, rather than faith in any deity".
(http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8835687&postcount=34)

Theology and the belief in God is one that is intellectually valid

Not so. In order to arrive at a belief in God, one must accept a variety of concepts which are based on the full range of logical fallacies, primarily circular reasoning, ad populum, ad antiquitatem, ad baculum (appeal to force), and false dichotomy. Theology does not stand up to rigorous intellectual evaluation. It is rooted in people's emotions, and they believe because they want to believe, or because they're not familiar enough with the intellectual process. God has about as much intellectual validity as the invisible pink unicorn or WMD in Iraq.

It's not necessary to call religious people retarded. Self-deluded or intellectually lazy, depending on the circumstances, would be a fairer label. Most believers operate under a fairly mild self-delusion, and it's not really much different from the other delusions we operate under. For instance, we all know other people who believe they are smarter, funnier, or better looking than they really are... what are YOUR delusions?

However, religious delusions can be extremely dangerous. Ask the families of employees in the World Trade Center. Ask the Tokyo subway passengers. We're living in dangerous times in part because we've coddled the lazy and deluded, and made excuses for them. Continuing to do so only perpetuates the cycle of violence. It's time for society as a whole to stop being so childish and start applying some standards, rather than blindly accepting any rubbish and being afraid to point it out as such.

This reminds me of something (the great) Dempublicents recently said:


(http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8835687&postcount=34)
I read through that too ... very good advice

Not christianity per se, but rather the know-nothing american protestant 'evangelical' mentality which leads to science denying is bad and reflects poorly on a person's character.

It is not possible for a reasonable person to trust somone who denies science, it proves that truth isnt important to the person.

I will make an exception for very old people, because they may generally not know any better, but for people in the modern world there is no excuse for "creationism" and the like.

I am now getting very fed up with the pesistance of Anti-Chrisitan feeling on this forum.
Didn't you make one of these threads last month and insulted non-christians right off the bat in your first post?

It wasn't so bad previously when it was merely interlectuall banter but in recent times I can recall at least three occations when I have seen Christians compared to the mentally retarded for their beliefs. That is unacceptable. Theology and the belief in God is one that is intellectually valid, if you people who constantly dismiss it would actually study it. You may disagree with the idea, that is fine. But you must accept it as one that is valid, and not dismiss it as being akin to being mentally retarded. That is insulting to over one third of the planets population. I would ask those who constantly insult Chrisitanity to have a little introspective and ask themselves why. Why is Chrisitanity such an affront to you.
Oh, look, playing the victim while asserting superiority.

Should I find all the threads where christians have attacked everyone else though?

"Name one religion that is perfect, and I'll list at least one flaw with it"

You're not forced to have a religion.

Which Arakaria said was "Not totally true."
Thank you for proving me right and Arakaria wrong. :D
Aren't you celebrating victory before it's achived? Besides, I'm disapointed that you treat this debate as something personal. Even if my belives that are close to my heart where involvet in this subject, I never wanted to defeat anyone. I thought that you want to understand others, to open your minds for their ideas and what they see. I don't know what your motivations where but I wanted to understand your perspective - I never intentioned to "win" something. The Truth (and I don't mean "forgotten chapters" of the Grand Book of History) cannot be won. But let me explain what I meant:
1. The Inquisition was undeniably Christian.
It's like saying that Germans are responsible for holocaust. Yes, that is correct but any anti-nazi German would be offended by stating things in such undelicate way. "No, it wasn't ALL Germans - Nazis did it" you can hear in reply. My religious belives are 100% Christian but Roman-Catholics used Inqusition to fight my brothers! That's why I felt offended and wanted to explain what I feel.
People just don't seem to care.
Well... some do.

Now, let us begin. First of all, I'm not referring to records that are "HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS" of years old, I'm referring to something your own god (science) has "proven" - the big bang. Evolution. Everything that you nutters use to try to break down the Bible and everyone who follows it. If you actually get out of your little shell of ignorance and go read it, resisting the rediculous urge to rip it up because it does not conform to your equally rediculous beliefs, you will find that even in the book of Genesis, it accurately portrays what science has come to "prove". To name a few, God didn't snap his fingers and whallah, there was man, he "sculpted" man, implying that he went through several stages. Evolution. Also, he said "Let there be light", "and there was light", but hang on, there was no sun? no earth? no day and night even? The Big Bang. Take note that He created the Earth and sh1t not too long after the "Let there be light".

And yes, 1000 was the biggest number they knew 2000 years ago. Bear in mind they almost never had the chance to use it in terms of an absolute quantity - they more often used it to indicate a helluvalot. For example, "I will give you a thousand grains of sand" didn't mean exactly that. It meant "I will give you a sh1tload of sand".

Hope this helps. Anyway, for future reference, try to be less insulting and you might be considered 1. older than 14, and 2. a proper participant in this debate. :D


First, let me start by saying... you are wrong. Since you obviously do not know anything about history or what people did or did not know concerning numbers, then you need to stop postulating that you do. While it may be true that they CONSIDERED 1000 to be a very large number, that does NOT mean that it was the "biggest number that they knew". I was not arguing the INTENT of your poor choice of words, but rather the idiocy of the words you chose. Unfortunately, you are incapable of recognizing the difference.

Second, you know nothing of what I believe. While I was teaching eighth grade earth science, I taught that the theory of evolution and the idea of creationism based on Genesis were actually ideas that go hand-in-hand, and that the Bible may well tell you that God did these things, but that science now believes that they can tell you by what method. These concepts are not mutually exclusive. You see, it is possible to be both Christian AND believe in modern technology and the scientific arts. While I understand that those of you like Dingleberry have little ability to grasp the higher functioning of concepts such as these and feel that it is solely your discretion to assign everyone with whatever belief structure you think suits them, I would ask that you refrain from insults of THIS magnitude.

So, does that meet all of you folks expectations on what I should be posting in order to forward yet another pointless debate? I certainly hope so, I would be loath to think that I had not lived up to the level of such postings as were presented by dipsh1ts like Dingleburry.

Now piss off!

I am now getting very fed up with the pesistance of Anti-Chrisitan feeling on this forum. It wasn't so bad previously when it was merely interlectuall banter but in recent times I can recall at least three occations when I have seen Christians compared to the mentally retarded for their beliefs. That is unacceptable. Theology and the belief in God is one that is intellectually valid, if you people who constantly dismiss it would actually study it. You may disagree with the idea, that is fine. But you must accept it as one that is valid, and not dismiss it as being akin to being mentally retarded. That is insulting to over one third of the planets population. I would ask those who constantly insult Chrisitanity to have a little introspective and ask themselves why. Why is Chrisitanity such an affront to you.If you're going to defend Christianity, at least learn how to spell it. :D

It's actually 2/7 of the population of the planet Earth, which is less than a third. I don't know any Christians here on Ganymede, either. ;)

I agree that Christians should not be compared to the mentally retarded. However, they don't seem to provide very mentally sound arguments. Theology is intellectually valid only if you dismiss certain logical points. (ex. Can God create a rock that is too large for him to move? If so, he is not omnipotent. If not, he is not omnipotent.) People may have posted this before, as this is a long thread, but I'm just adding my 2¢.

First, let me start by saying... you are wrong. Since you obviously do not know anything about history or what people did or did not know concerning numbers, then you need to stop postulating that you do. While it may be true that they CONSIDERED 1000 to be a very large number, that does NOT mean that it was the "biggest number that they knew". I was not arguing the INTENT of your poor choice of words, but rather the idiocy of the words you chose. Unfortunately, you are incapable of recognizing the difference.

Second, you know nothing of what I believe. While I was teaching eighth grade earth science, I taught that the theory of evolution and the idea of creationism based on Genesis were actually ideas that go hand-in-hand, and that the Bible may well tell you that God did these things, but that science now believes that they can tell you by what method. These concepts are not mutually exclusive. You see, it is possible to be both Christian AND believe in modern technology and the scientific arts. While I understand that those of you like Dingleberry have little ability to grasp the higher functioning of concepts such as these and feel that it is solely your discretion to assign everyone with whatever belief structure you think suits them, I would ask that you refrain from insults of THIS magnitude.

So, does that meet all of you folks expectations on what I should be posting in order to forward yet another pointless debate? I certainly hope so, I would be loath to think that I had not lived up to the level of such postings as were presented by dipsh1ts like Dingleburry.

Now piss off!Please, let's try to keep this civil. Don't directly flame other players, even if they do make some stupid posts. It's not their fault that they're...er...not the brightest on NS.

No, but many people have analyised it, studied it, critisced it but in the end it is still here and it is still accepted.

Only by christians.



Funny, people must not insult racial groups, genders etc. I see no diffrence here.

Racial groups tend not to go around informing most of the population that they are going to burn in hell for all eternity.



Yes, and those are fine but people calling Chrisitans mentally retarded is just wrong.

And telling non-christians that they are evil and will burn in hell is fine and dandy, right?

What you don't seem to realise is that religion is just another idea - it ain't special, and doesn't get special treatment.



The same thing can be said of athiests, they are only athiests because their parents are etc

Except they aren't. The vast bulk of atheists have theist parents.

I am now getting very fed up with the pesistance of Anti-Chrisitan feeling on this forum. It wasn't so bad previously when it was merely interlectuall banter but in recent times I can recall at least three occations when I have seen Christians compared to the mentally retarded for their beliefs. That is unacceptable. Theology and the belief in God is one that is intellectually valid, if you people who constantly dismiss it would actually study it. You may disagree with the idea, that is fine. But you must accept it as one that is valid, and not dismiss it as being akin to being mentally retarded. That is insulting to over one third of the planets population. I would ask those who constantly insult Chrisitanity to have a little introspective and ask themselves why. Why is Chrisitanity such an affront to you.

I'm a born-again Christian, and I find any expression of self-righteousness to be offensive. People don't have to accept Christianity as valid or true - that's their personal decision, and you can't dismiss their dismissal of Christianity as being insulting.

People find and accept the beliefs they want to find and accept. It's a matter of personal choice, and personal need. Most people, by the time they are adults, have already made a choice, and don't want someone to come by and say they're wrong.

I'm a born-again Christian, and I find any expression of self-righteousness to be offensive. People don't have to accept Christianity as valid or true - that's their personal decision, and you can't dismiss their dismissal of Christianity as being insulting.

People find and accept the beliefs they want to find and accept. It's a matter of personal choice, and personal need. Most people, by the time they are adults, have already made a choice, and don't want someone to come by and say they're wrong.I'm an atheist, but surprisingly I agree with you.

And people don't have to accept it as valid unless it is a proven fact. For example, everyone accepts that the sky is blue, because it's proven. On the other hand, not everyone will accept that Christianity is the best religion or the smartest or whatever, because its beliefs and teachings haven't been proven.

Actually anything you profess as true is what you believe. Science is a belief because I can believe that everything science says is wrong. That would be my belief. Therefore, you believe in science.


A different sort of belief - you are comparing tulips and tyre irons.

Theistic religion has no existence independent of its own belief structure.

You can believe whatever the hell you like, but g is still ~9.8 m/s/s

[QUOTE=
The same thing can be said of athiests, they are only athiests because their parents are etc[/QUOTE]

That's not true, my father was raised a Jehovah's Witness, and my mother was Christian, even tho she didn't go to Church often, but I am an atheist.

"While I was teaching eighth grade earth science, I taught that the theory of evolution and the idea of creationism based on Genesis were actually ideas that go hand-in-hand, and that the Bible may well tell you that God did these things, but that science now believes that they can tell you by what method. These concepts are not mutually exclusive. You see, it is possible to be both Christian AND believe in modern technology and the scientific arts."

As I see it, you have to follow the words of the bible to be a christian. The bible says that God made man, which defies logic. Science is logic. How is that not exclusive?

It is my belief that everyone has the right to ridicule everyone else, and those that can't handle it should STFU and learn to deal.

I'm an atheist, but surprisingly I agree with you.

And people don't have to accept it as valid unless it is a proven fact. For example, everyone accepts that the sky is blue, because it's proven. On the other hand, not everyone will accept that Christianity is the best religion or the smartest or whatever, because its beliefs and teachings haven't been proven.

While I accept the ideas of Mersenne in regards to proving the "facts" of the world, and science is quite good at explaining observables, I leave the world of observable facts to science, and I leave the world of spiritual and emotional need to my religion.

Some people don't bother with the spiritual, and stay fully in the world of logic - even when it can't explain or prove certain things - they're content to wait until there's an explanation. And some people dispense with logic entirely, and embrace ideas that a scientific person would find ludicrous and unprovable.

But I would let everyone pick their own flavor. I've found the flavor that works for me - and you have found the flavor that works for you. Who am I to say that you are wrong and I am right? As long as we're happy with our choices.

That's why I find it offensive when someone says, "my religion is the only truth" or "all religious people are idiots". Share your beliefs and logic - but don't let someone tell you that you're wrong and stupid.

Athiests protest too much about no God.Do you argue about something that you can not prove one way or another.Christians believe that there is something beyond the darkness. Athiests are afraid of the dark.It is easy to say there is no God ,then there is no accounting for your acts in life. There is always a way to get around this argument.One question; is an Athiest automatically an evolutionist?

What's an evolutionist? Are they like gravityists, germists and quantumists?

Atheists don't "protest...about no god". What we *do* protest about is religious people asserting it as fact that their particular version of their particular god should be the basis for how *we* live *our* lives.

I have never needed to use a killfile to keep proselytising atheists out of my inbox.

I am totaly backing you up on this man. I am a firm believer in Christ, and I do not understand why people question the certainty of God. Any1 plz TG me if u have an opinion on this. :) :)

Demonstrate this certainty. If you can't, you defeat your own argument.

When christians can demonstrate that they *are* right, as opposed to just blindly asserting that they are - then we can talk. Until then, every time a christian tells me he has the ultimate truth I will say "please go away". If he does it again, I'll tell him exactly what to do with the horse he rode in on.

Then why pray tell is it still called the theory of de-evolution,oops evolution :) which takes more faith, the theory that we came out the primevial slime, or the thought that there may have being some being behind our being here.Gravity is not a theory,it is a fact. jump off a cliff if you don't believe it :cool: Methinks we are just a little bit arrogant thinking we know so much about the universe, there is so much we don't know.The Big Bang theory purports that the universe is is expanding,expanding into what :rolleyes:

Evolution is the change in allele frequency across time for any given genetic population. That is a fact - it can be, and is, observed in any reasonably equipped biology lab.

The theory of evolution is the body of explanation which surrounds that fact. Gravity too is both fact and theory.

Methinks you should spend less time giving out about the arrogance of science, and go *read some*.

That's not true, my father was raised a Jehovah's Witness, and my mother was Christian, even tho she didn't go to Church often, but I am an atheist.

That's a logical fallacy - one instance does not make a rule. Besides, you're misinterpreting the quote. He said that IF a person is saying 'You're only a christian because you were indoctrinated', you can say exactly the same of an atheist. He wasn't suggesting that all atheists were indoctrinated. Sorry but you've missed the point abit!

That's a logical fallacy - one instance does not make a rule. Besides, you're misinterpreting the quote. He said that IF a person is saying 'You're only a christian because you were indoctrinated', you can say exactly the same of an atheist. He wasn't suggesting that all atheists were indoctrinated. Sorry but you've missed the point abit!
Though for someone to be indoctrinated into atheism , atheism would have to have a doctrine (something hard for a non organized belief)

Demonstrate this certainty. If you can't, you defeat your own argument.

When christians can demonstrate that they *are* right, as opposed to just blindly asserting that they are - then we can talk. Until then, every time a christian tells me he has the ultimate truth I will say "please go away". If he does it again, I'll tell him exactly what to do with the horse he rode in on.


I'm a born-again Christian, and I'm not about to tell you that I'm right and you're wrong. Perhaps you're meeting the wrong sort of Christian. And no, I don't have the ultimate truth, or all the answers. But there are limits to scientific proof (which is excellent for things like evolution and physics, but falls short in other areas).

If I was to ask you if you loved someone, and you said, "yes, of course," I could then ask you for a scientific proof. But that would fall flat on its face.

Sometimes there's more to the world that what can be proven. That's why I like science for what it's good for, and religion for what it's good for.

I don't even think it's relevant to discuss whether or not religion can prove anything - proof is the realm of science. It's only role is to give spiritual and emotional satisfaction.

I'm a born-again Christian, and I'm not about to tell you that I'm right and you're wrong. Perhaps you're meeting the wrong sort of Christian. And no, I don't have the ultimate truth, or all the answers. But there are limits to scientific proof (which is excellent for things like evolution and physics, but falls short in other areas).

If I was to ask you if you loved someone, and you said, "yes, of course," I could then ask you for a scientific proof. But that would fall flat on its face.

Sometimes there's more to the world that what can be proven. That's why I like science for what it's good for, and religion for what it's good for.

I don't even think it's relevant to discuss whether or not religion can prove anything - proof is the realm of science. It's only role is to give spiritual and emotional satisfaction.
Well he could prove that his observational actions towards someone fall within the range of what is considered the socially “norm” expression of love

Or eventually when scanning of brain activity is fine enough it could be proved that he is exhibiting the normal thought responses associated with “love”

Evolution is the change in allele frequency across time for any given genetic population. That is a fact - it can be, and is, observed in any reasonably equipped biology lab.

The theory of evolution is the body of explanation which surrounds that fact. Gravity too is both fact and theory.

Methinks you should spend less time giving out about the arrogance of science, and go *read some*.
You appear to be mistaking fact with observable actions. It is a betting cert that you drop a ball and it will nearly always fall to earth. But as any one who states they base thier belief in scinece should know there is a chance that the ball will stop in mid air. The only fact is that the last time you dropped a ball it fell to earth, you assume based on evidence and theory due to gravity. It is not a fact that the next time you drop the ball it will fall to earth. It is likley based on previous test but is not fact until it has happened and been observed. These theories and explinations of events can be used as very good guide but are not fact. I know I'm being a pedant but live by the sword (Science).....

Though for someone to be indoctrinated into atheism , atheism would have to have a doctrine (something hard for a non organized belief)

On the contrary, just about anything can be indoctrinated. If a child were told from the beginning that there is no god and that they shouldn't even consider the possibility that there might be, that child would be indoctrinated. The same is true if a child is told that there is a god, a particular god, and examination of any other ideas is wrong. If you discourage free thinking, you are practicing indoctrination.

On the contrary, just about anything can be indoctrinated. If a child were told from the beginning that there is no god and that they shouldn't even consider the possibility that there might be, that child would be indoctrinated. The same is true if a child is told that there is a god, a particular god, and examination of any other ideas is wrong. If you discourage free thinking, you are practicing indoctrination.
They are practicing conformism, there is a reason the root of indoctrinated is doctrine. Common usage may make it synonymous to “ brainwashing” but that does not make the word such.
Definition one of indoctrination

To instruct in a body of doctrine or principles.

The parents may have a set of principles but atheism in itself does not have a cognitive set of principals or doctrines (unlike organized religions)

Turning the other cheek was meant so that your master could not slap you like a servant, but he would be forced to slap you like an equal. I dont see where people get the whole tolerance thing from that.

Have you even read the "Sermon on the Mount"? Matthew chapters 5-7.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a
tooth for a tooth:
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever
shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other
also.
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy
coat, let him have thy cloak also.
And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him
twain.
Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of
thee turn not thou away.

Which pretty much says tolerance. Not sure how you thought it meant "slap you like an equal."

While I accept the ideas of Mersenne in regards to proving the "facts" of the world, and science is quite good at explaining observables, I leave the world of observable facts to science, and I leave the world of spiritual and emotional need to my religion.

Some people don't bother with the spiritual, and stay fully in the world of logic - even when it can't explain or prove certain things - they're content to wait until there's an explanation. And some people dispense with logic entirely, and embrace ideas that a scientific person would find ludicrous and unprovable.

But I would let everyone pick their own flavor. I've found the flavor that works for me - and you have found the flavor that works for you. Who am I to say that you are wrong and I am right? As long as we're happy with our choices.

That's why I find it offensive when someone says, "my religion is the only truth" or "all religious people are idiots". Share your beliefs and logic - but don't let someone tell you that you're wrong and stupid.I agree with you completely and don't see why most people don't seem to.

Czardas:
Some people can tolerate the ignorance of religious people, others can't. Fewer people like the fact that the belief of another can have any effect on oneself. It shouldn't, but it does. When a woman in Ireland can't get an abortion if she wants to, the Catholic doctor's faith and conviction becomes more than a personal belief - now he's forcing it upon his patients. Do you think abortion would've been illegal (and even so, to this extent?) if there had been no religion? I think not. When a woman in the middle east has sex with someone to whom she is not married, she will be subjected to severe corporal punishment. The man will not. He might not be very popular, and he might even get whipped, but he's not getting thrown into a hole and stoned to death - gender inequality. This is because of Islam - religion. Homosexuals. In the bible, homosexuality is something unnatural - frowned upon. Frankly, I don't see why anyone would question this - it's stated quite clearly.

I'm sure there's plenty of Muslims and Christians who do not follow some of the worse parts of their holy books - but why not? Your religion, the very thing you claim to believe in, says that it's followers think this and that about that. Hypocrisy. If you want to be a Christian, do it properly.

I do expect heavy flaming here. I may respond to some of the more serious posts. (easy on the English though, if you want to get any kind of sense out of me.)

Czardas:
Some people can tolerate the ignorance of religious people, others can't. Fewer people like the fact that the belief of another can have any effect on oneself. It shouldn't, but it does. When a woman in Ireland can't get an abortion if she wants to, the Catholic doctor's faith and conviction becomes more than a personal belief - now he's forcing it upon his patients. Do you think abortion would've been illegal (and even so, to this extent?) if there had been no religion? I think not. When a woman in the middle east has sex with someone to whom she is not married, she will be subjected to severe corporal punishment. The man will not. He might not be very popular, and he might even get whipped, but he's not getting thrown into a hole and stoned to death - gender inequality. This is because of Islam - religion. Homosexuals. In the bible, homosexuality is something unnatural - frowned upon. Frankly, I don't see why anyone would question this - it's stated quite clearly.

I'm sure there's plenty of Muslims and Christians who do not follow some of the worse parts of their holy books - but why not? Your religion, the very thing you claim to believe in, says that it's followers think this and that about that. Hypocrisy. If you want to be a Christian, do it properly.

I do expect heavy flaming here. I may respond to some of the more serious posts. (easy on the English though, if you want to get any kind of sense out of me.)

Finally! Someone who sees things clearly... no flame here!

"While I was teaching eighth grade earth science, I taught that the theory of evolution and the idea of creationism based on Genesis were actually ideas that go hand-in-hand, and that the Bible may well tell you that God did these things, but that science now believes that they can tell you by what method. These concepts are not mutually exclusive. You see, it is possible to be both Christian AND believe in modern technology and the scientific arts."

As I see it, you have to follow the words of the bible to be a christian. The bible says that God made man, which defies logic. Science is logic. How is that not exclusive?

Technically, to be a Christian, you have to follow the teachings of Christ. If you read only the words of Christ, and leave out all the extra stuff added by Paul, you end up with something rather pleasant - and rather unlike your stereotype of a Christian.

Not all Christians are alike - and no, they don't have to believe everything in the Bible. Most of the Bible (even most of the New Testament) is not the words and teachings of Jesus.

I do understand that it's mainly the old testament that's extremist, but who is to point out which parts are the word of Christ, and which are not? The answer might be obvious, but please, enlighten me.

I do understand that it's mainly the old testament that's extremist, but who is to point out which parts are the word of Christ, and which are not? The answer might be obvious, but please, enlighten me.
The Bible in the US is commonly printed with the words of Christ in red print, and the rest in black print.

I feel free to ignore anything that's not printed in red - and I can still be a Christian (in fact, that makes me one literally).

The New Testament is remarkably refreshing in that context - most of the nasty stuff in the New Testament was written by Paul.

Czardas:
Some people can tolerate the ignorance of religious people, others can't. Fewer people like the fact that the belief of another can have any effect on oneself. It shouldn't, but it does. When a woman in Ireland can't get an abortion if she wants to, the Catholic doctor's faith and conviction becomes more than a personal belief - now he's forcing it upon his patients. Do you think abortion would've been illegal (and even so, to this extent?) if there had been no religion? I think not. When a woman in the middle east has sex with someone to whom she is not married, she will be subjected to severe corporal punishment. The man will not. He might not be very popular, and he might even get whipped, but he's not getting thrown into a hole and stoned to death - gender inequality. This is because of Islam - religion. Homosexuals. In the bible, homosexuality is something unnatural - frowned upon. Frankly, I don't see why anyone would question this - it's stated quite clearly.

I'm sure there's plenty of Muslims and Christians who do not follow some of the worse parts of their holy books - but why not? Your religion, the very thing you claim to believe in, says that it's followers think this and that about that. Hypocrisy. If you want to be a Christian, do it properly.

I do expect heavy flaming here. I may respond to some of the more serious posts. (easy on the English though, if you want to get any kind of sense out of me.)Ignorance is a bad thing. We should do everything in our power to combat it.

However, if people want to be ignorant, it's their problem. They can believe that the earth revolves around the moon if they want [/plagiarism from A Study in Scarlet]. It's none of my business and it shouldn't be anyone else's either. If you can't tolerate the ignorance of your religious next-door neighbor, then move away from him/her or just don't listen to him/her.

And while you're at it, invent a new pronoun like the French lui for the NS-afflicted among us.

The Bible in the US is commonly printed with the words of Christ in red print, and the rest in black print.

I feel free to ignore anything that's not printed in red - and I can still be a Christian (in fact, that makes me one literally).

The New Testament is remarkably refreshing in that context - most of the nasty stuff in the New Testament was written by Paul.
WL, can I ask, are you part of a church?
If so, do the members of your church agree with your understanding of the Bible, and the parts that can be ignored?
If not, why not?

These questions are not meant in an aggressive way, but for the purpose of seeking understanding.

:)

Ignorance is a bad thing. We should do everything in our power to combat it.

However, if people want to be ignorant, it's their problem. They can believe that the earth revolves around the moon if they want [/plagiarism from A Study in Scarlet]. It's none of my business and it shouldn't be anyone else's either. If you can't tolerate the ignorance of your religious next-door neighbor, then move away from him/her or just don't listen to him/her.


So in fact, your first 2 sentences should read: 'Ignorance is a bad thing. We should do everything in our power ot combat it, except if someone doesn't want us to combat their ignorance.'
Criminals might not want us to try to re-educate them so that they stop commiting crimes, but that doesn't matter, we do it anyway. You can't say that choosing to be ignorant is a right that must be preserved, unless you believe that either the ignorance of one person does not affect anyone else, which is rubbish, or that the rights of the individual are completly paramount to the good of society.

WL, can I ask, are you part of a church?
If so, do the members of your church agree with your understanding of the Bible, and the parts that can be ignored?
If not, why not?

These questions are not meant in an aggressive way, but for the purpose of seeking understanding.

:)

Yes, I belong to a church. Yes, they do. Oh, and we don't come off as self-righteous, either. It's not my job to tell you you're a sinner - it isn't even the pastor's job. I'm too busy working out the problems in my own life to start throwing stones.

Right. I guess you can't have doubts about that. Only the ridiculous idea of some supernatural entity left, then.. which is, in my book, more than enough reason not to believe.
I'd write more, but I have to go now - bye people.

The New Testament is remarkably refreshing in that context - most of the nasty stuff in the New Testament was written by Paul.

Here, here. I still maintain that Paul was the worst thing to happen to Christianity since serving as the main course at the Lion's Club Social events.

Paul was one nasty piece of work.

Yes, I belong to a church. Yes, they do. Oh, and we don't come off as self-righteous, either. It's not my job to tell you you're a sinner - it isn't even the pastor's job. I'm too busy working out the problems in my own life to start throwing stones.
Which church do you go to?

I ask because my church, Bristol Vineyard, gives a generally higher level of authority to the parts of the New Testament not quoting Jesus than yours does, but people are still expected to think for themselves, and check what is taught on Sundays against what the Bible says.

I ain't got no stones to throw, and I also have a number of ongoing problems in my life that need attending to.

Which church do you go to?

I ask because my church, Bristol Vineyard, gives a generally higher level of authority to the parts of the New Testament not quoting Jesus than yours does, but people are still expected to think for themselves, and check what is taught on Sundays against what the Bible says.

I ain't got no stones to throw, and I also have a number of ongoing problems in my life that need attending to.

It's an independent church. Yes, you're supposed to think for yourself, and check what you hear.

We're big on prayer and on the Holy Spirit. Not big on having someone point out sin in others.

It's an independent church. Yes, you're supposed to think for yourself, and check what you hear.

We're big on prayer and on the Holy Spirit. Not big on having someone point out sin in others.
What if, and this is a somewhat controversial point in my church, the Holy Spirit tells you about someone else's sin so that you can confront them? I've heard loads of stories about this happening, with good results.

Tact is obviously a minimum requirement, along with kindness, and respect for a person's dignity and privacy. I don't think this would exclude talking to them in some way.

What if, and this is a somewhat controversial point in my church, the Holy Spirit tells you about someone else's sin so that you can confront them? I've heard loads of stories about this happening, with good results.

Tact is obviously a minimum requirement, along with kindness, and respect for a person's dignity and privacy. I don't think this would exclude talking to them in some way.

So far, it hasn't happened to me. I have helped people, but I didn't know I helped them until afterwards.

The one I remember is a fellow office worker in the mid-1990s who would mope in his office at lunch. He was a Christian as a child, but had given it all up when he became an adult. I asked him why he never ate lunch, or went to lunch, and he told me a bit about how he was having problems with his life (not just depression, as far as I could see). I said that I'm not going to tell you to go to church, but the whole point of the Last Supper was to tell the most important thing - that you never forget to eat when hungry, and never forget to drink when thirsty - and you should never forget to feed yourself spiritually.

I also told him that he should see a doctor about the depression.

Well, I left that job, and six months later, he comes up to me at a gas station and wanted to thank me - he not only got on Prozac, but he started going to church again - and the spiritual fulfillment was what he needed as well.

Not saying it works for everyone, nor do I push it on people - but I tend not to concentrate on sin - I'd rather that people find the Holy Spirit in their own way, and God handles the rest - I don't have to say anything about sin.

So far, it hasn't happened to me. I have helped people, but I didn't know I helped them until afterwards.

The one I remember is a fellow office worker in the mid-1990s who would mope in his office at lunch. He was a Christian as a child, but had given it all up when he became an adult. I asked him why he never ate lunch, or went to lunch, and he told me a bit about how he was having problems with his life (not just depression, as far as I could see). I said that I'm not going to tell you to go to church, but the whole point of the Last Supper was to tell the most important thing - that you never forget to eat when hungry, and never forget to drink when thirsty - and you should never forget to feed yourself spiritually.

I also told him that he should see a doctor about the depression.

Well, I left that job, and six months later, he comes up to me at a gas station and wanted to thank me - he not only got on Prozac, but he started going to church again - and the spiritual fulfillment was what he needed as well.

Not saying it works for everyone, nor do I push it on people - but I tend not to concentrate on sin - I'd rather that people find the Holy Spirit in their own way, and God handles the rest - I don't have to say anything about sin.
You reached out to that man in love; that was God working through you, to help him.

My point was, in a more general way, what do you do if the Holy Spirit tells you to do something you weren't comfortable with? Something that you knew could have a good effect, but would really stretch you, take you out of your depth?

You reached out to that man in love; that was God working through you, to help him.

My point was, in a more general way, what do you do if the Holy Spirit tells you to do something you weren't comfortable with? Something that you knew could have a good effect, but would really stretch you, take you out of your depth?

The only time I ever got out of my depth, so to speak, was when I spoke in tongues. I'm normally a pretty reserved person in public, and it just came out of me unexpectedly. Still does.

The only time I ever got out of my depth, so to speak, was when I spoke in tongues. I'm normally a pretty reserved person in public, and it just came out of me unexpectedly. Still does.

Speaking in tongues is fascinating to me. Do you feel that it was divinely inspired? How could you tell that what was coming out was from a divine source and not a psychological response to some sort of external, but wholly corporeal, signal?

The only time I ever got out of my depth, so to speak, was when I spoke in tongues. I'm normally a pretty reserved person in public, and it just came out of me unexpectedly. Still does.
Do you still try speaking in tongues? My experience is that it's not an uncontrollable phenomenon, but something that I can do at will.

I've heard different opinions on its significance. Some Christians reckon it's fairly minor in the grand scheme of Christian life. Some think it's huge (Jackie Pullinger, who's done lots of work with addicts and prostitutes in Hong Kong, with incredible success, is one of these).

I feel free to ignore anything that's not printed in red - and I can still be a Christian (in fact, that makes me one literally).

The New Testament is remarkably refreshing in that context - most of the nasty stuff in the New Testament was written by Paul.

I've found we agree on most stuff and I count on you to watch my back battling in the arena of ideas but this one I disagree with you on. Christ taught new converts, Paul matured the Church through doctorinal teachings from God. The message of Christ is by far more important but Paul's message (from God) benefits tomorrow's generation of Christians by keeping them within the restrictions of Christianity.

Since we both agree on Christ though, we will meet in the hereafter.

I think what these frustrated people are tired of that make them call christians on this forum "mentaly challanged" is the fact that many of the posts are very insulting to the non-christians. For example "Why Darwins Theroy is Wrong" or Disproving the big bang theroy. Your setting yourselves up for conflict. No I take that back you are starting conflict with others. For a religion that boast love & tolerance as some of their greatest attributes I don't see that in practice on these forums. It's then becomes very hard to take your ideas at all seriously when you don't even attempt to practice what you preach.
Most of the time it is a simple matter of how your ideas are presented on the forum. The "were right & everyone else is wrong" additude does not go far & opens you up to that kind of attack.
Now granted there will always be jerks who come down on you not matter what you say in these forums.
I could say I like popcorn & 3 people would tell me how sick & twisted I am. Most people on these forums will be a lot more approachable if you present your ideas & beliefs in a non-threatening manner.

Do you still try speaking in tongues? My experience is that it's not an uncontrollable phenomenon, but something that I can do at will.

I've heard different opinions on its significance. Some Christians reckon it's fairly minor in the grand scheme of Christian life. Some think it's huge (Jackie Pullinger, who's done lots of work with addicts and prostitutes in Hong Kong, with incredible success, is one of these).

It happens nearly every time I pray for an extended period of time.

It happens nearly every time I pray for an extended period of time.
Do you feel like you're out of control while praying in tongues? I never do, I can stop any time, pray fast or slow, loud or quiet or silent. But when I first became a Christian, I couldn't do it. I'd try, and then feel embarrassed, even if I was alone. Some guys who could do it already prayed for me at a conference, and then I could, and I've always been able to since. I don't do it much, and I sometimes think it might help, maybe a lot.

Anyway, you're praying to your Father in heaven. That's what matters.
:D

Gotta go, catch you again!

I could say I like popcorn & 3 people would tell me how sick & twisted I am. Most people on these forums will be a lot more approachable if you present your ideas & beliefs in a non-threatening manner.
Dude, you like popcorn?

That's sick man!

Think of all the fat you're eating. Man, the stupidity of some people never cease to amaze me. :D

Dude, you like popcorn?

That's sick man!

Think of all the fat you're eating. Man, the stupidity of some people never cease to amaze me. :D
Maybe I should eat some cyber fruit eh?

Maybe I should eat some cyber fruit eh?No, CyberFruit isn't worth it until you get to 1,000 odd posts, when you can actually sell it, you've got so much. So START POSTING MORE!!!

I am now getting very fed up with the pesistance of Anti-Chrisitan feeling on this forum. It wasn't so bad previously when it was merely interlectuall banter but in recent times I can recall at least three occations when I have seen Christians compared to the mentally retarded for their beliefs. That is unacceptable. Theology and the belief in God is one that is intellectually valid, if you people who constantly dismiss it would actually study it. You may disagree with the idea, that is fine. But you must accept it as one that is valid, and not dismiss it as being akin to being mentally retarded. That is insulting to over one third of the planets population. I would ask those who constantly insult Chrisitanity to have a little introspective and ask themselves why. Why is Chrisitanity such an affront to you.

It's proselytizing Christians who are an affront to me, and I only refer to them as idiots when they insist on shoving their beliefs down my throat. It's not so much what they believe as the fact that they think they have the unilateral right to force it on the rest of the world - that is just plain idiotic.

Maybe I should eat some cyber fruit eh?
Well, if you want some, have I got a deal for you!
Come visit my store and we'll talk further. :)

Note: I DID NOT BOTHER TO READ ALL 26 POSTINGS.

You try to force it on us, simple enough. That's not respecting our viewpoint, which is equally valid.

Here, Here…

As far as I'm aware, most Atheists are of that mindset because they arrived at it on their own. Its not like they get taken to their anti-churches every week and are constantly told about God not existing. Most of the time, they have to resist a lot of pressure from religious groups to arrive at their views.

Most of us atheists/agnostics are that way, because Christianity or some other religion, let us down.

What I meant is that they are not raised with any conept of God is the reason why many people are athiests. And the idea that they resist religious groups to arive at their conclusion is completly absurd as far as the UK goes. I dont know about the US though.

Hey! I was raised with the concepts of God. You sir, have a very narrow mind of what life is if you think most of us are raised without knowing there is supposedly a God, or that Jesus existed, or what Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Mohammedanism, etc. are all about and for that matter the concept of religion.

We chose to be the way we are because in some cases maybe even most cases, Religion(s) as a whole let us down. A good example of this is the scandals in the Catholic Church. Or the so-called holy war in the MidEast against the US and other western nations, an obvious excuse to wage terrorism. I could make lists that would go on forever. If those religions are what I need to adhere to, in order to get to a supposed better place then I want nothing to do with them.

It's proselytizing Christians who are an affront to me, and I only refer to them as idiots when they insist on shoving their beliefs down my throat. It's not so much what they believe as the fact that they think they have the unilateral right to force it on the rest of the world - that is just plain idiotic.

See there is a significent diffrence between forcing and explaining. Many Christians make this mistake and end up offending people. However non Christians also make that mistake and assume when Christians are merley explaining their beliefs that they are forcing them on people, I think many non Christians need to listen more clearly to what Christians are saying. But as for your comment about it being idiotc, I would like you to explain why.

See there is a significent diffrence between forcing and explaining. Many Christians make this mistake and end up offending people. However non Christians also make that mistake and assume when Christians are merley explaining their beliefs that they are forcing them on people, I think many non Christians need to listen more clearly to what Christians are saying. But as for your comment about it being idiotc, I would like you to explain why.Well, when Christians explain their beliefs, some of their comments imply that other religions are unclean or bad, prompting people to assume that they are "forcing" their faith on them.

I'm fine with Christians as long as they're fine with me. Hey, some of my best friends are Christian. [/sarcasm]

Well, when Christians explain their beliefs, some of their comments imply that other religions are unclean or bad, prompting people to assume that they are "forcing" their faith on them.

I'm fine with Christians as long as they're fine with me. Hey, some of my best friends are Christian. [/sarcasm]

I think that perhaps Neo has no idea when he's saying that other religions, beliefs, or lack thereof are "unclean or bad". This often stems from a sense of self-righteousness - which regardless of belief, most people find offensive.

Well, when Christians explain their beliefs, some of their comments imply that other religions are unclean or bad, prompting people to assume that they are "forcing" their faith on them.


I think you misunderstood what I was getting at. When Christians are evangilising, they want people to hear them, listen to them, understand what they are saying and enquire about it. Now whether or not they turn to Christianity as a result is entirely up to them, but all they themselves are doing are attempting to explain something. Given that any religion believes it is the correct one then you obviously expect that Chrisitans, like any other group, believe the others to be incorrect. If you had some sort of wishy-washy message it wouldnt be clear. They want to give you as much infomation as you can about Christianity. Thats all. Its up to you what you do with it.

I think you misunderstood what I was getting at. When Christians are evangilising, they want people to hear them, listen to them, understand what they are saying and enquire about it. Now whether or not they turn to Christianity as a result is entirely up to them, but all they themselves are doing are attempting to explain something. Given that any religion believes it is the correct one then you obviously expect that Chrisitans, like any other group, believe the others to be incorrect. If you had some sort of wishy-washy message it wouldnt be clear. They want to give you as much infomation as you can about Christianity. Thats all. Its up to you what you do with it.

Neo, you can't evangelize blindly, which is what you're doing. You seem to be a New Testament guy - read Acts

16:6: Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,
16:7: After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.
16:8: And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas.
16:9: And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
16:10: And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.


If you'll notice, the Spirit told them to lay off some places. Want to know why? Because it would have been a waste of time. Learn to know when it's a waste of time to tell people about Christ - and when it would work. You obviously have the idea that you should be constantly preaching, even if people don't want to listen.

You're going to waste a lot of your time doing that.

im just replying for the hell of it now... im sure everyone came to a conclusion or something...

I was brought up and raised jewish, grew up learnineg stories obviously from old testament (the torah)... i am now full fledged atheist.. i didnt even go to agnostic.. just straight to atheist. Though im completely against the creationist view and belive that abortions and stem cell research are good, i do believe that there is a respect that needs to be shown towards religion and those who follow any of the various religions out there. There is no reason to call people retarded for their belief in christianity.. however if you are talking about a group of people that arent religiously affiliated, then it is allowed to be said. Its all in the context... hmm. i was brought up jewish. my dad was born in israel, so i was brought up and still believe that Palestinians are stupid terrorists who hate capitalsim and are retarded because they are easily swayed by the few powerful fndamentalist leaders who tell them that they are poor b/c of jews and americans.... i guess its all in the context.

yea.. did i mention im also a crazy republican... but not too conservative.

Neo, you can't evangelize blindly, which is what you're doing. You seem to be a New Testament guy - read Acts

16:6: Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,
16:7: After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.
16:8: And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas.
16:9: And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
16:10: And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.


If you'll notice, the Spirit told them to lay off some places. Want to know why? Because it would have been a waste of time. Learn to know when it's a waste of time to tell people about Christ - and when it would work. You obviously have the idea that you should be constantly preaching, even if people don't want to listen.

You're going to waste a lot of your time doing that.

I agree that you can't evangalise everywhere to all the people as it will often be a waste of time. The point ultimately is to do the best you can. In some situations you may not have time to pray about it strongly or dwell on it particually so you may just have to go with the flow, as and when it comes to you. Evangalism isnt always planned, it isnt just people standing in the streets and talking. Its just sometimes people talking with friends and telling them about what they believe as and when it comes up in conversation.

See there is a significent diffrence between forcing and explaining. Many Christians make this mistake and end up offending people. However non Christians also make that mistake and assume when Christians are merley explaining their beliefs that they are forcing them on people, I think many non Christians need to listen more clearly to what Christians are saying. But as for your comment about it being idiotc, I would like you to explain why.
He did not say Christianity was idiotic rather the act of forcing it on others is not logical (as you yourself do not want to be forced to do the same for another religion)

Lies, and spreading them. :/

He did not say Christianity was idiotic rather the act of forcing it on others is not logical (as you yourself do not want to be forced to do the same for another religion)

Read the post, there is, as I said, a significent diffrence between forcing it on people and evangilism. Too many times Athiests accuse Christians of forcing their views on people, in attempt to avoid an issue. True evangalism is simpley explaining Christianity, nothing more

Read the post, there is, as I said, a significent diffrence between forcing it on people and evangilism. Too many times Athiests accuse Christians of forcing their views on people, in attempt to avoid an issue. True evangalism is simpley explaining Christianity, nothing more


You have to realize that there is a difference between reality and ideals.

Perhaps ideally, "evangelism" is simply explaining christianity, but in the real world, in the United States, the people who call themselves "evangelists" do not simply explain christianity.

The platform of denying science and opposing gay civil rights and other things is unacceptable.

Science-deniers have no regard for standards of truth and for that reason are untrustworthy.

I am now getting very fed up with the pesistance of Anti-Chrisitan feeling on this forum. It wasn't so bad previously when it was merely interlectuall banter but in recent times I can recall at least three occations when I have seen Christians compared to the mentally retarded for their beliefs. That is unacceptable. Theology and the belief in God is one that is intellectually valid, if you people who constantly dismiss it would actually study it. You may disagree with the idea, that is fine. But you must accept it as one that is valid, and not dismiss it as being akin to being mentally retarded. That is insulting to over one third of the planets population. I would ask those who constantly insult Chrisitanity to have a little introspective and ask themselves why. Why is Chrisitanity such an affront to you.

Back in the day, most of western Europe believed that you could cure all illnesses with magnets and bleeding.

Back in the day, probably every human on the planet believed that the world was flat.

Back in the day, it was illegal under punishment of execution to study and vivisect a dead human body for scientific reasons.

Back in the day sucked. And just because supposedly one third of the earth's population believes that some white haired old sky god is chilling up in the clouds making a mental record of every crap you take doesn't make it true, just like the world is not flat, a dead body is not sacred, and a magnet's only modern practical use is on your damn fridge.

Please, stop trying to jealously pull us atheists off our task of climbing up the evolutionary ladder to greener pastures, and we'll gladly leave you be to drag your knuckles across the ground until your fantasy rapture comes to take you all away.

#402

Sad, that they will not realise this.

Back in the day, most of western Europe believed that you could cure all illnesses with magnets and bleeding.

Back in the day, probably every human on the planet believed that the world was flat.

Back in the day, it was illegal under punishment of execution to study and vivisect a dead human body for scientific reasons.

Back in the day sucked. And just because supposedly one third of the earth's population believes that some white haired old sky god is chilling up in the clouds making a mental record of every crap you take doesn't make it true, just like the world is not flat, a dead body is not sacred, and a magnet's only modern practical use is on your damn fridge.

Please, stop trying to jealously pull us atheists off our task of climbing up the evolutionary ladder to greener pastures, and we'll gladly leave you be to drag your knuckles across the ground until your fantasy rapture comes to take you all away.

Actually magnets are very useful, even in medicine where we use them for MRI. Of course, they are super conducting and something like 10 000 times as powerful as the Earth's magnetic field...

You know in Roman times, Christians were burnt for illumination, and of course used as entertainment in the circuses.
I say bring back these practices.

Seriously though, the main reason I hate christianity over other religions is because christians think christianity is automatically above all other religions.
YOU treat other religions with respect, and I'll treat YOUR religion with respect. And yes, that goes for other blindly elitist religious people.

You know in Roman times, Christians were burnt for illumination, and of course used as entertainment in the circuses.
I say bring back these practices.

Seriously though, the main reason I hate christianity over other religions is because christians think christianity is automatically above all other religions.
YOU treat other religions with respect, and I'll treat YOUR religion with respect. And yes, that goes for other blindly elitist religious people.

I'm sorry, but I'm a Christian, and I don't believe that it's automatically above all other religions.

Thank you for lumping all varieties of Christian into the same group.

You know in Roman times, Christians were burnt for illumination, and of course used as entertainment in the circuses.
I say bring back these practices.

Seriously though, the main reason I hate christianity over other religions is because christians think christianity is automatically above all other religions.
YOU treat other religions with respect, and I'll treat YOUR religion with respect. And yes, that goes for other blindly elitist religious people.
hee hee. the hypocrasy in this has just floored me.

I'm sorry, but I'm a Christian, and I don't believe that it's automatically above all other religions.

Thank you for lumping all varieties of Christian into the same group.
you sure you're a Christian? your holy book clearly states you are superior to those who do not follow your religion, so are you saying that you just pick and choose what bits of that book you are going to follow? if you do, then why not cut out the middle man and just hold your beliefs without using parts of the Christian holy text to prop them up? if you aren't going to follow the tenets of Christianity, why call yourself a Christian?

Back in the day, most of western Europe believed that you could cure all illnesses with magnets and bleeding.

Back in the day, probably every human on the planet believed that the world was flat.

Back in the day, it was illegal under punishment of execution to study and vivisect a dead human body for scientific reasons.

Back in the day sucked. And just because supposedly one third of the earth's population believes that some white haired old sky god is chilling up in the clouds making a mental record of every crap you take doesn't make it true, just like the world is not flat, a dead body is not sacred, and a magnet's only modern practical use is on your damn fridge.

Please, stop trying to jealously pull us atheists off our task of climbing up the evolutionary ladder to greener pastures, and we'll gladly leave you be to drag your knuckles across the ground until your fantasy rapture comes to take you all away.

Can you actually disprove that Christianity is wrong? No you cant. No one can prove either its certianly valid or certianly invalid. So dont go pretending like you can.

you sure you're a Christian? your holy book clearly states you are superior to those who do not follow your religion, so are you saying that you just pick and choose what bits of that book you are going to follow? if you do, then why not cut out the middle man and just hold your beliefs without using parts of the Christian holy text to prop them up? if you aren't going to follow the tenets of Christianity, why call yourself a Christian?

I only follow the red words - just the words of Christ.

Now He did say that you can only get to Heaven through Him, and I believe that. But does not getting to Heaven make someone a lesser person? I believe that going to Heaven is a personal choice - just like choosing Nirvana would be for a Buddhist. Personal choice - and I don't believe for a moment that it's a moral one.

I don't see anywhere where Christ said, "go hate gays" or "go hate Muslims" or "go hate <fill in the blank>"

Throwing stones is not my sport.

If I was to ask you if you loved someone, and you said, "yes, of course," I could then ask you for a scientific proof. But that would fall flat on its face.

Sometimes there's more to the world that what can be proven. That's why I like science for what it's good for, and religion for what it's good for.


Except what I'd actually say is "define love".

And you aren't the sort of christian this thread is about. This thread is about a very specific form of christian who feels they should be entitled to preach against, well, everyone - and not face the backlash. From other posts I get the impression those christians irk you almost as much as they irk other posters on this thread.

Back in the day, most of western Europe believed that you could cure all illnesses with magnets and bleeding.

Back in the day, probably every human on the planet believed that the world was flat.

Back in the day, it was illegal under punishment of execution to study and vivisect a dead human body for scientific reasons.

Back in the day sucked. And just because supposedly one third of the earth's population believes that some white haired old sky god is chilling up in the clouds making a mental record of every crap you take doesn't make it true, just like the world is not flat, a dead body is not sacred, and a magnet's only modern practical use is on your damn fridge.

Please, stop trying to jealously pull us atheists off our task of climbing up the evolutionary ladder to greener pastures, and we'll gladly leave you be to drag your knuckles across the ground until your fantasy rapture comes to take you all away.

Other than the comment regarding the practical uses of a magnet, I agree with your statements.

I am now getting very fed up with the pesistance of Anti-Chrisitan feeling on this forum. It wasn't so bad previously when it was merely interlectuall banter but in recent times I can recall at least three occations when I have seen Christians compared to the mentally retarded for their beliefs. That is unacceptable. Theology and the belief in God is one that is intellectually valid, if you people who constantly dismiss it would actually study it. You may disagree with the idea, that is fine. But you must accept it as one that is valid, and not dismiss it as being akin to being mentally retarded. That is insulting to over one third of the planets population. I would ask those who constantly insult Chrisitanity to have a little introspective and ask themselves why. Why is Chrisitanity such an affront to you.Mainly because the belief has so much that offends others. It is intolerant, homophobic, misogynistic, elitist, racist and has a history of violence.

is it any wonder that Christianity is pilloried so much?

I think you misunderstood what I was getting at. When Christians are evangilising, they want people to hear them, listen to them, understand what they are saying and enquire about it. Now whether or not they turn to Christianity as a result is entirely up to them, but all they themselves are doing are attempting to explain something. Given that any religion believes it is the correct one then you obviously expect that Chrisitans, like any other group, believe the others to be incorrect. If you had some sort of wishy-washy message it wouldnt be clear. They want to give you as much infomation as you can about Christianity. Thats all. Its up to you what you do with it.
I am not a christian, Neo, but I support your right to share your message. I do hope that Christians realise that the recipient is not a passive being however. For a person to sersiously consider a message that challenges their previous mindset (as is the scenraio when a non-Christian is exposed to the message of Christianity) it takes a profound amount of soulsearching. For many people it is a simple process to be born again because their pre-existing ideas are in-line with the values of Christianity. For others, it may be akin to convincing them that their father is a woman. The road-map that a person follows in life is one devised of a lifetime of experience, and to openly accept an alternative message may undermine their whole sense of self. I think that evangelism within reason is fine, but it is my personal belief that in this life, the ones who are meant to be Christened will seek the message of their own volition. People who reject the message do not reject you (Unless you give them sufficient reason to believe that you are a neutral being, substituting Christianity for a personality, like some obsessed fan.)

Religion to me is like a pick-n-mix bag of confectionary. If you believe in reincarntion like I do, everyone has the chance to know god.

Can you actually disprove that Christianity is wrong? No you cant. No one can prove either its certianly valid or certianly invalid. So dont go pretending like you can.

That's fallacious reasoning.

The burden of proof is on *you* - until *you* can prove that christianity is *right*, non christians don't need to do a thing.

If you *can't* do that, or *refuse* to do that, you sacrifice any semblance of validity you may have had - which is why we don't like christians spouting off at us.

intolerant

Of what exactly? If you mean it does not believe other religons are valid, no religion does that.


homophobic

See this is the mistake many people make. Believeing homosexuality to be a sin does not equate to homophobia. The reason, well its simple love the sinner hate the sin. You dont hate the people who commit the sin, just the sin itself.


misogynistic

If your talking about Paul, read this

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/fem09.html


elitist


Your going to have to explain that one. I see nothing about class in the Bible


racist

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

No, your wrong.


and has a history of violence.

So does Islam, America and many other things. If your talking about the crusades, they were territorial wars more than spiritual.

See there is a significent diffrence between forcing and explaining. Many Christians make this mistake and end up offending people. However non Christians also make that mistake and assume when Christians are merley explaining their beliefs that they are forcing them on people, I think many non Christians need to listen more clearly to what Christians are saying. But as for your comment about it being idiotc, I would like you to explain why.

Yes, there is a difference between forcing and explaining - explaining is done only when it is asked for. Anything else is forcing.

As for non-Christians needing to listen more clearly to what Christians are saying, do you also think that Christians need to listen more closely to what non-Christians are saying as well? Or is this just a one-way street with you? If I walk up, uninvited, to every Christian I see and start "explaining" Paganism to them, is that okay? Do they need to listen to me? If they tell me they're not interested, and I fail to get the message and persist in my "explanation," would they be so far wrong in describing my behavior as "idiotic" (disregarding any Christian prohibitions against calling someone a fool, of course)? True - someone who behaves this way may have a perfectly normal or even a very high I.Q., but they are certainly demonstrating an extremely low social I.Q., wouldn't you agree?

That's fallacious reasoning.

The burden of proof is on *you* - until *you* can prove that christianity is *right*, non christians don't need to do a thing.

If you *can't* do that, or *refuse* to do that, you sacrifice any semblance of validity you may have had - which is why we don't like christians spouting off at us.

See thats just the thing, we do all the time. You just refuse to accept it. Non Christians cannot claim they are ceritanly right as we have our arguements. I get angry at non Christians basicly parading around claiming they have the logical advantage purley because they say so. They dont. There are plenty of logical reasons to support God's existance. You just choose to ignore them many occasions.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/thumbs.html

I would read this and a great deal of what this site produces.

Neo, without a doubt, Paul was homophobic and misogynistic.

And if you believe homosexuality is a sin, why focus on it so much?

You remind me of a pastor who I once saw. He couldn't preach a single sermon without blasting homosexuals. You would have thought that the church was packed with them (I think there may have been some, but certainly not the whole church).

I go to church to hear good news. Not accusations that I'm a fuckup because of the way I live my life. Otherwise, I'm leaving.

I'd rather have the Holy Spirit tell me what I'm doing wrong, than some red-faced buffoon who fears homosexuals.

I don't see anywhere where Christ said, "go hate gays" or "go hate Muslims" or "go hate <fill in the blank>"

Well, he did say you had to hate your family if you wanted to be his disciple (Luke 14:26). Apparently he wasn't much of a family guy.

And if you believe homosexuality is a sin, why focus on it so much?


"In 40 years we have moved from the love that dare not speek its name to the love that cannot shut up"

Society seems obsessed with pushing homosexuality in our faces as a valid and wonderful thing. I make a point of expalining it just to show that the Christian position is not homophobic. So many people are convinced of themselves tha it is.

As for this particular occation, he mentioned it, I responded. Nothing wrong with that.

So does Islam, America and many other things. If your talking about the crusades, they were territorial wars more than spiritual.

Do you honestly believe the Crusades are the only historical example of Christian violence against non-Christians?

Oh for goodness sake, why not just ignore any of the threads that concern the matter.
It all just goes round and round and the same people say the same things and come to the same conclusions time after time.
The only reason I'm on this thread is because of the title and now that I have said my bit, I will ignore it.

Well said
Besides the anti-christian feeling is more aimed at those who try to convert people by force, rather any moderate christian

Of what exactly? If you mean it does not believe other religons are valid, no religion does that.I MEANT THAT CHRISTIANITY IS GENERALLY INTOLERANT, WHENEVER IT HAS ENGAGED WITH OTHER BELIEFS IT USUALLY SETS ABOUT DESTROYING THEM OR USURPING THE DEEPLY HELD SPIRITUAL BELIEFS OF THE RELIGIONS IT COMES INTO CONTACT WITH.....LOOK WHAST HAPPENED TO THE CATHARS OF SOUTHERN FRANCE AND NORTHERN SPAIN IN THE 12 CENTURY.



See this is the mistake many people make. Believeing homosexuality to be a sin does not equate to homophobia. The reason, well its simple love the sinner hate the sin. You dont hate the people who commit the sin, just the sin itself. THATS JUST SEMANTICS, CHRISTIANITY FAILS TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN THE INDIVIDUAL AND THE "SIN". IN THE WEST WE LIVE IN SOCIETIES WHICH FOLLOW A "CHRISTIAN" TRADITION OF MORALITY. INDEED THE CHRISTIAN BELIEF STILL, TODAY REFUSES TO ALLOW SAME SEX MARRIAGE AND EQUALITY BETWEEEN DIFFERENT GENDER IDENTIFICATION.



If your talking about Paul, read this

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/fem09.html



Your going to have to explain that one. I see nothing about class in the Bible
BY CLASS I AM REFERING TO THE WHOLE ELITIST THING.....IN THE BIBLE IT IS ACCEPTABLE TO MAKE SLAVES OF PEOPLE FROM OTHER CULTURES, WE SHOULD ALL ASPIRE TO THE "KINGDOM" OF HEAVEN...WHAT THERE IS NO REPUBLIC, OR DEMOCRATIC CLASSLESS ENVIRONMENT WITHIN HEAVEN???



Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

No, your wrong.
WHAT ABOUT THE MANY EXAMPLES OF RACISM WITHIN THE BIBLE....THE KILLING OF ALL FIRSTBORN IN EGYPT, THE ATTITUDE TOWARDS OTHER MIDDLE EASTERN CUTLURES LIVING NEARBY, THE HATRED TOWARDS THE SAMARITANS ETC. I COULD GIVE OTHER EXAMPLES BUT THIS WOULD MEAN RESEARCHING SPECIFIC CHAPTERS IN THE BIBLE AND I DON'T HAVE TIME FOR THAT.



So does Islam, America and many other things. If your talking about the crusades, they were territorial wars more than spiritual.
AGAIN, I REFER TO THE MASSACRE OF CATHARS BY THE ROMAN CHRISTIANS, WHOLE TOWNS AND VILLAGES WERE WIPED OUT FOR THE "WORD OF GOD"....THAT WAS BEFORE THE CHRISTIAN "EVANGELISTS" DECIDED TO TAKE THEIR MESSAGE OUT OF EUROPE.

i HAVEN'T BEEN SHOUTING WHILE RESPONDING TO YOU, IT'S JUST EASIER TO DISTINGUISH WHAT YOU AND I HAVE WRITTEN.

#418

God is just as true as violet-striped dolphins on the moon. There is no proof of God's existence. Either belief has the same truth value. So yeah, we can't disprove God's existence, nor that of the dolphins.

Agnostics believe that one cannot ascertain God's existence, but having taken that position, nothing really is. See dolphin above.

I do have one argument for Christianity, actually - the words of some Danish celebrity whose name I've forgotten (translated, obviously):

You can chose to believe, or you can chose not to. If you believe, then maybe you'll get into heaven when you die, if not then no harm done.

So if you're willing to give up your logical integrity (which you already have), Christianity can be a great trade.. I'm not, however, and I find the whole notion to be foolish, naive and cowardly.

if a person has light, peace and spirituality then the name of their faith (or non-faith) makes no odds, it's all the same. stop bickering guys and start loving! love thyself, love thy dog.

Except that it makes them seem like 6-year-olds scared that the easter bunny might not be real.

Except that it makes them seem like 6-year-olds scared that the easter bunny might not be real.
Fortunately for me, I don't need your belief or approval to know my own reality.

For the science-minded - that's observer-oriented reality.

A question of priorities. If you couldn't care less what's real and what's not, then fine, be a Christian, but some people are less than content with deceiving themselves.

I could say god is a big turtle flying threw space spitting planets out of its arse, it's no more ridiculous than stuff in the bible.
Try it, it's fun to make stuff up :headbang:

A question of priorities. If you couldn't care less what's real and what's not, then fine, be a Christian, but some people are less than content with deceiving themselves.
I find it interesting that you believe that someone has to either believe all one way, or all the other.

While I use science and logic for the physical world, and for concrete things, I use emotion and spirituality for things that are not concrete and logical.

If you're going to be strictly logical, then you're going to have to dispense with concepts like "love" and tell your significant other that you're merely acting out your biological urges (in fact, write her a card that says that instead of a card with "I love you" on it).

Go ahead, be a pure realist. I'm sure your significant other would really enjoy being told she's just a vessel for the reproductive urges of the male of the species.

So if love is in fact a concrete and logical thing, it is less special? I think not - love is a biological thing, and it's just as beautiful either way. Also, love to me is not purely sexual - it's also about emotional needs; companionship. This is how I define love. Hence, I need not dispense with anything at all.

The part about being consequent in your belief, it's because I find it highly hypocritical to call oneself a Christian, yet not do what it takes to be one. I'm no expert, but it seems to me that Christianity is, in more than one way, a paradox when paired with science.

They are practicing conformism, there is a reason the root of indoctrinated is doctrine. Common usage may make it synonymous to “ brainwashing” but that does not make the word such.
Definition one of indoctrination

To instruct in a body of doctrine or principles.

The parents may have a set of principles but atheism in itself does not have a cognitive set of principals or doctrines (unlike organized religions)

Hats off to your, sir... excellent post.

Technically, to be a Christian, you have to follow the teachings of Christ. If you read only the words of Christ, and leave out all the extra stuff added by Paul, you end up with something rather pleasant - and rather unlike your stereotype of a Christian.


Absolutely.

Even though I am an Atheist (Godless Heathen), I have an appreciation for Christians... and rather less respect for 'christians'.

I don't have a problem with Christians unless it's obvious I know more about their religion than they do. That may sound elitist, but I'm no scholar; I hardly know jack.

Can you actually disprove that Christianity is wrong?

Neo, old pal... is this really what you meant to say?

Re-read it... see if it means what you THOUGHT you were saying.....

I hardly know jack.

I've met Jack, and honestly, you are not missing very much.

Well said
Besides the anti-christian feeling is more aimed at those who try to convert people by force, rather any moderate christian
Mazalandia, my dear, I've been all over the debates and haven't yet recieved any trouble as a moderate Christian. I did get ONE email from a fellow Catholic telling me that I didn't deserve to be Catholic.

Honestly, it seems to me that the ones that are being harrassed are probably bothering the harrassers just as much. Not saying either party deserves it, as a matter of fact, I think they should just avoid the same old debates anyway. That is, unless they're going to give the other side a fair chance.

Not that people love me for trying to argue both sides, at times.....