NationStates Jolt Archive

The American dream. Starting out as a poor person in a backward neighbourhood you manage to work yourself up to a powerful person with your own mansion and yaught. Sounds good, eh ? But is it ?

The American dream is supposed to be reached through capitalism. One of the ideas behind this system is that people desire to be rewarded relatively for their work. That is to say, if you work harder than a coworker - you want more money. If you do something which not many people can do - you want more money. Contrary to the socialists you are not content with doing the best you can, to provide a better world for your fellow man and feeling content with a job well done - no, you want more. Much more for preference.

But is that desire not Greed ? Is even the desire to become something better which the American dream advertises not also Greed ? And is Greed not a sin ?

Yes, this argument is full of holes. But debate it if you want ;)

Its difficult to agree with that. That is defintely the captilist version of the "American Dream" The way you've phrased yeah your right. But The orginal American Dream was freedom. Overtime it has changed to match current social trends, I would say it can't be clearly defined anymore. As my personal opnion though its gone back to being about freedom. As far as I'm aware as long as that doesnt turn into pride it isn't a sin to want to be free.

No.

The desire to better our circumstances and secure a better life for ourselves is a fundamental aspect of human nature. As long as you can do it without fucking over other people, it's all fair game.

The American dream. Starting out as a poor person in a backward neighbourhood you manage to work yourself up to a powerful person with your own mansion and yaught. Sounds good, eh ? But is it ?

The American dream is supposed to be reached through capitalism. One of the ideas behind this system is that people desire to be rewarded relatively for their work. That is to say, if you work harder than a coworker - you want more money. If you do something which not many people can do - you want more money. Contrary to the socialists you are not content with doing the best you can, to provide a better world for your fellow man and feeling content with a job well done - no, you want more. Much more for preference.

But is that desire not Greed ? Is even the desire to become something better which the American dream advertises not also Greed ? And is Greed not a sin ?

Yes, this argument is full of holes. But debate it if you want ;)

No, it's not a sin... until you start focussing upon yourself and your material desires above all else, so it's very very easy for it to become sin. Remember, Christians have a responsibility towards the poor, and Jesus didn't spend most of his time with the marginalised of society for nothing. Also, remember the Church is compared to a body, the point being that each member should look after all the other members, not just themselves. Whatever you do you should do your best, but you should do this to glorify God, not to make more money for yourself. Remember the first commandment is to "love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul and all your strength", and the second is to "love your neighbour as youself".

These are not the attitudes displayed by much of the USA... a "Christian" nation... that is a big part of the reason why they are percieved as hypocritical.

Greed, pride, coveting. What you described is also an excellent illustration of several biblical sins. Whether its the American dream or not though, I dont know.

It all depends on how you define 'the american dream'. to me it was more of a 'get rich and live happily ever after' kind of thing. but then i'm not religious.
if to you 'the american dream' means to be richer than everyone else, and you're catholic then that might be a little conflict of interests ;)

The American dream. Starting out as a poor person in a backward neighbourhood you manage to work yourself up to a powerful person with your own mansion and yaught. Sounds good, eh ? But is it ?

The American dream is supposed to be reached through capitalism. One of the ideas behind this system is that people desire to be rewarded relatively for their work. That is to say, if you work harder than a coworker - you want more money. If you do something which not many people can do - you want more money. Contrary to the socialists you are not content with doing the best you can, to provide a better world for your fellow man and feeling content with a job well done - no, you want more. Much more for preference.

But is that desire not Greed ? Is even the desire to become something better which the American dream advertises not also Greed ? And is Greed not a sin ?

Yes, this argument is full of holes. But debate it if you want ;)

The main hole in your argument is work ethic=capitalism. One can achieve the American Dream (which I believe is the stereotypical house you own free and clear and a family) without much to do with money. You can build your future through your own physical work.

What I don't get is why there are some people (and this is not aimed at you, The Alma Mater) who call themselves socialists whose raison d'etre seems to be to sit about on the 'net all day doing nothing, rail at the rest of the world that working to achieve their goals is being stupid and falling under the power of 'the rich', and then stick their hands out demanding their 'fair' share of what others have achieved.

Note that I am NOT speaking of socialized governments like Canada, where everyone gets medical treatment through the government, nor of systems that support like programs -- just the "Capitalism is evil, you don't care about anyone else, you make the rich richer through your labors, throw off your chains, and why won't you give me money for sitting here?!" types.

Do remember as you bash America for being hypocritical in its Christianity, many Christians either tithe (that is, give 10% of their gross earnings to be used to help the poor) or make charitable donations for the same.

The fact is that we exist in a system whereby a person can work their ass off, with good humour and hope and still get *nowhere.*

The idea that if you work hard, you will achieve what you want is frankly a laughable attempt to get an army of uncomplaining labour, forcing them to work excessive hours for low pay and cream as much money off the top. In the rare circumstance where these people do manage to 'progress,' what does growing up working under this sort of system impress on these people?

It implies that that sort of behaviour is acceptable. That once you have money and power it is ok to behave in such a manner.

In principle, working hard to achieve your desires is a great thing to impress on people, you certainly dont get anything from doing nothing! However our society is under such unfair controls by those that already have their wealth and are now reluctant to loose any of it, that it seems futile to work. I dont want to give myself a host of western stress-bourne diseases. I dont want to become an utter bastard who would behave with complete disregard for other people and the earth. I refuse to be forced into short-sightedness by the current system.

I believe a lot can be done by removing management, especially middle management (whats the point of digging a hole, only to pay someone to fill it in again?) and encouraging people to create workers co-operatives. Give people more control over their lives! Give them a sense of taking responsibility in their job! Take away the excessive wage packets claimed by managers, who essentially do less work and are less use than the people they profess to be in charge of!

I have heard people say 'oh, we need management to ensure people work hard and dont piss about' - Bullshit! If people dont have their lives managed for them, they are forced to do it themselves. In a co-operative, people can tailor their jobs to suit their lives, there is a sense of community, people help oneanother out. Pay is more reasonable and working hours become more flexible. Also H&S standards go up, because nay **** is gonnae do anything they think is harmful to them and if they do, its a choice they made. They were not coerced, or threatened, or even just allowed to assume that because 'everyone' does it it cant be that bad...

So, anyway, Im a socialist in that sense.

Lets keep this in perspective.

The "American Dream" isnt what it used to be.

It USED to be having a the picture perfect "Nice little home, with the white picket fence, two happy kids, and a dog in the yard."

Thats what the average american used to work for.
Thats all most people wanted with their lives.
They would be willing to work all thier lives, hard honest work, to make a comfortable living, take the occasional vacation with the kids and the dog, and retire comfortably.

Thats not the "American Dream" anymore.

Greed has replaced contentment.
Our cars have to be bigger, and "safer", our army has to be huge enough to make anyone think like us, and we have to root out "Terrorism" wich threatens our "American Dream" every day.
In fact, we are so convinced that our "AD" is so important, that everyone else everywhere, should do what we do.

Instead of just enjoying what we have, we have become a nation obsessed with making our lives as perfect as we can.
In our children seem bored at school..we medicate them.
If we arent happy with out lives, we medicate ourselves with brain-altering stimulants.

If we have an election, we tend to vote for the guy who says the worst crap about his opponent.

If the "American Dream" were a person, it would be an old woman, with a sad look in her eyes, living in a nursing home, sitting in a corner, in her own piss, and no one cares enough to check in on her to see how shes is doing.

This thread is getting a little....red :cool: