NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm tired of ppl putting down the confederate flag. All it was was the symbol of the south. nothing more. What are you're people's views

The South can fly the flag all they want, for all I care

Yankees Rule! Wooh! New York Yankees that is..

The South can fly the flag all they want, for all I care

I second that.

The South can fly the flag all they want, for all I care
I third that.

i dont really care, either. it does look kinda cool though....

I think that the Confederate flag should be flown freely in any state that is a member of the Confederate States of America.... wait... :rolleyes:

I'm tired of ppl putting down the confederate flag. All it was was the symbol of the south. nothing more. What are you're people's views

[*snip*]

Anyway, you have every right as an individual to fly a symbol of racism, slavery, segregation, and treason -- if you so choose.

And I have every right to "put[] down" such symbol.

Welcome to the United States of America and the First Amendment.

EDIT: And before anyone gets all huffy: I was asked for my views and I gave them. You got the "nice" version.

You can fly it, but that same right that lets you fly it lets me bash it.

I think that the Confederate flag should be flown freely in any state that is a member of the Confederate States of America.... wait... :rolleyes:

:D

Well said.

By 'symbol of the south', what are referring to? The civil war was composed around several issues, slavery being the one that gets the most attention. So I can understand why some people are offended by that flag. There are people who are offended at the American flag, to the point of burning it. It is not about what it is, really, it's about what some people try to make it represent. I had one side of the family fight for the north, and the other for the south, so personally, I don't care.

Just out of curiousity, how would you feel if you were an African American and saw a flag that represented a nation that REFUSED to give you rights. When people fly the Confederate flag, they usually agree with what it stood for: a nation that "needed" slaves because the poor plantation owners couldn't afford servants. The slaves were treated HORRIBLY! The Confederate flag represents the Confederate ideology.

Just out of curiousity, how would you feel if you were an African American and saw a flag that represented a nation that REFUSED to give you rights. When people fly the Confederate flag, they usually agree with what it stood for: a nation that "needed" slaves because the poor plantation owners couldn't afford servants. The slaves were treated HORRIBLY! The Confederate flag represents the Confederate ideology.
You over simplified it.

How did I over-simplify it?

Miehm, is that you?

Anyway, you have every right as an individual to fly a symbol of racism, slavery, segregation, and treason -- if you so choose.

And I have every right to "put[] down" such symbol.

Welcome to the United States of America and the First Amendment.

EDIT: And before anyone gets all huffy: I was asked for my views and I gave them. You got the "nice" version.

Yes, because we know segregation, slavery, and racism never existed in the North.

I'm tired of ppl putting down the confederate flag. All it was was the symbol of the south. nothing more. What are you're people's views
I use to feel the same way until I realized that displaying it truly does make African-Americans feel badly, even if they refrain from saying so. Having been born and raised in the Southern US, I admit to a certain affection for things about the Old South, but I wouldn't fly the Confederate flag for love nor money.

Waht is the 'The Confederate Flag'? Is it, like, the south-american flag? Or am I completely lost, like I normally do?

Everyone makes a big deal over how it was a war about "slavery". In actuality it was a war about states rights, the efforts of the north to financially weaken the south by placing high tariffs on items such as cotton while lowering tariffs on manufactured items made in the north, and the count of slaves concerning the electoral college. The South was pissed they were getting stepped all over by the North and decided they didn't want to hang around anymore, and in fact it was a perfectly legal thing to secede from the Union at that time. Where they screwed up was when they started bombarding Ft. Sumpter. I doubt President Lincoln would have done anything about it if the South hadn't started attacking Ft. Sumpter as he didn't have much power at the time. He gained power throughout the Civil War as most presidents do in time of war, and he added his own agenda, the abolishment of slavery, to his list of grievences against the South.

Now, yes, the South screwed up, they shouldn't have started trying to kill northerners, but at the time it was legal to secede under certain conditions. I'm not supporting slavery either, I'm just saying that it wasn't one of the main causes of the civil war and wasn't what the South truly stood for, although it did factor in somewhat.

Anyway, I don't think the confederate flag should be allowed to fly on courthouses and such because it is used as a symbol by the Ku Klux Klan now. However, people have every right to fly that flag on their own if they wish. I've seen people fly british flags, are they considered traitors?

Yes, because we know segregation, slavery, and racism never existed in the North.
You're right, segregation, slavery, and racism did exist, but they saw their wrong-doing and fixed it. The main reason the Civil War began was because the Confederacy wanted to keep all of those noble traits, and Lincoln knew that they weren't the best thing for anyone.

Yes, because we know segregation, slavery, and racism never existed in the North.
Not to an extent that it started a war.

Waht is the 'The Confederate Flag'? Is it, like, the south-american flag? Or am I completely lost, like I normally do?
I believe this is it (somebody correct me if I'm wrong):
http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~lmortins/civilwar/Confederate%20Flag.jpg
It was the flag of the Confederates in the Civil War, and is still displayed as a sign of 'Southern Pride' or somesuch by some southerners.

Everyone makes a big deal over how it was a war about "slavery". In actuality it was a war about states rights, the efforts of the north to financially weaken the south by placing high tariffs on items such as cotton while lowering tariffs on manufactured items made in the north, and the count of slaves concerning the electoral college. The South was pissed they were getting stepped all over by the North and decided they didn't want to hang around anymore, and in fact it was a perfectly legal thing to secede from the Union at that time. Where they screwed up was when they started bombarding Ft. Sumpter. I doubt President Lincoln would have done anything about it if the South hadn't started attacking Ft. Sumpter as he didn't have much power at the time. He gained power throughout the Civil War as most presidents do in time of war, and he added his own agenda, the abolishment of slavery, to his list of grievences against the South.

Now, yes, the South screwed up, they shouldn't have started trying to kill northerners, but at the time it was legal to secede under certain conditions. I'm not supporting slavery either, I'm just saying that it wasn't one of the main causes of the civil war and wasn't what the South truly stood for, although it did factor in somewhat.

Anyway, I don't think the confederate flag should be allowed to fly on courthouses and such because it is used as a symbol by the Ku Klux Klan now. However, people have every right to fly that flag on their own if they wish. I've seen people fly british flags, are they considered traitors?
What state's right? That to keep slaves?

Why was the south so agricultural? Could it be cheap labor?

Not to an extent that it started a war.

Blacks were treated like shit in the North. According to Alexis de Tocqueville (sp?), racism was even worse in the North than it was in the South.

What state's right?

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Yes, because we know segregation, slavery, and racism never existed in the North.

Did I say they did not?

Does not change the fact that the Confederate flag is a symbol of those things -- as well as of treason.

Blacks were treated like shit in the North. According to Alexis de Tocqueville (sp?), racism was even worse in the North than it was in the South.
Exactly - when the North told the South to abolish slavery, they fired back with the rather legitimate point of "wage slavery" in the North.

http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~lmortins/civilwar/Confederate%20Flag.jpg
OMG I am t3h 0ff3nd3d!1!11!!!! You better un-post that image! :rolleyes:

Did I say they did not?

Does not change the fact that the Confederate flag is a symbol of those things -- as well as of treason.

Treason, my ass. Did you know that the vast majority of the Founding Fathers favored the right of secession?

What state's right? That to keep slaves?

Why was the south so agricultural? Could it be cheap labor?

States Rights is their right to make and obey or ignore certain laws which is a fundamental principle this nation was founded on. This is why we have states and aren't one gigantic meganation.

The south was agricultural because that area was best suited for farming. You don't use an area suited for farming for industry, when instead of making trinkets it could be used to make food which would sustain you.

Also, you should realize that slavery wasn't abolished in the North until 1865. So, the war wasn't all about slavery.

I use to feel the same way until I realized that displaying it truly does make African-Americans feel badly, even if they refrain from saying so. Having been born and raised in the Southern US, I admit to a certain affection for things about the Old South, but I wouldn't fly the Confederate flag for love nor money.

And that, sir, makes you a gentleman. *applause*

And (dare I say it?) a sensitive one. :eek:

Not to an extent that it started a war.

Contrary to what leftists say, the war was not fought as a noble crusade to liberate the slaves. Lincoln was an ardent white supremacist (most Northerners were). The Republicans were not anti-slavery. They opposed the extension of slavery, but only because they wanted to preserve them "for free white people." The abominable treatment of blacks in the North makes it highly unlikely that the war was motivated by sympathy for the plight of Southern blacks.

I doubt President Lincoln would have done anything about it if the South hadn't started attacking Ft. Sumpter as he didn't have much power at the time. He gained power throughout the Civil War as most presidents do in time of war, and he added his own agenda, the abolishment of slavery, to his list of grievences against the South.

Now, yes, the South screwed up, they shouldn't have started trying to kill northerners, but at the time it was legal to secede under certain conditions. I'm not supporting slavery either, I'm just saying that it wasn't one of the main causes of the civil war and wasn't what the South truly stood for, although it did factor in somewhat.


I'm sorry, but Lincoln did have the abolishment of slavery on his agenda. It was a key point in all the Lincoln-Douglas debates. That's why Lincoln had such a low popularity rate compared to Douglas, but most of those didn't vote. Lincoln was liked by less of the majority, but more of the voters, because of his ideas of slavery. The South figured that Lincoln would abolish slavery, which is why they pulled out; that was the main reason the South felt trodden upon by the North. They wanted to keep slavery, and knew Lincoln didn't.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Which one.

Which one.

Tenth Amendment.

Waht is the 'The Confederate Flag'? Is it, like, the south-american flag? Or am I completely lost, like I normally do?



The one that gets the most attention is the battle flag.

http://www.scv674.org/csaflags.htm

I'm sorry, but Lincoln did have the abolishment of slavery on his agenda.
I can't find the exact quote, but Lincoln said something along the lines that if he could have saved the Union w/o freeing the slaves he'd have done it

States Rights is their right to make and obey or ignore certain laws which is a fundamental principle this nation was founded on. This is why we have states and aren't one gigantic meganation.

The south was agricultural because that area was best suited for farming. You don't use an area suited for farming for industry, when instead of making trinkets it could be used to make food which would sustain you.

Also, you should realize that slavery wasn't abolished in the North until 1865. So, the war wasn't all about slavery.
If by the north, you mean Delaware and the other boarder states which had to be dragged into civilization, yes. The north proper, however, had slavery banned quite a bit before then.


Which state right?

Waht is the 'The Confederate Flag'? Is it, like, the south-american flag? Or am I completely lost, like I normally do?

The confederate flag (http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~lmortins/civilwar/Confederate%20Flag.jpg)

was the flag of the short lived Confederate States of America, consisting of all the southern states of the current US save Kentucky and Maryland. In 1860, after Abraham Lincoln's election to the US presidency, South Carolina suceeded from the United States. The grand fear was that Lincoln would violate what the South considered state rights and abolish the institution of slavery, which was central to the South's economy and social structure. By 1861, all the states of the south save the 2 above had suceeded. The new Confederate government still had occupied US forts on their soil, including one Fort Sumpter in Charleston, South Carolina. That fort was shelled and taken by Confederate forces, which began the actual Civil War, in which the Northern, Midwestern and Western states fought to bring the suceeding Southern states back into the Union. Originally, the war went well for the Confederates (known often as Rebels, whereas the Union were called Yanks), and they defeated the Union on multiple occasions, thanks to the brilliance and not a little luck of Generals Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson and Jeb Stuart. Eventually however, a Union blockade, superior Union industrial capacity and manpower and the skill of the drunk turned private turned General Ulysess S. Grant. After the decisive battles of Vicksburg (on the Mississippi R) and Gettysburg (Pennsylvania) the war turned against the Confederates. The Confederate States of America formally surrendered in April 1865.

You may be thinking of the United States of CENTRAL America, which was a union of Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua and Costa Rica. That union fell apart permanently in the 1830s - 40s (don't know this one exactly.)

Also, you should realize that slavery wasn't abolished in the North until 1865. So, the war wasn't all about slavery.
Have you ever heard of the Emancipation Proclamation of January 1, 1863?

Everyone makes a big deal over how it was a war about "slavery". In actuality it was a war about states rights, the efforts of the north to financially weaken the south by placing high tariffs on items such as cotton while lowering tariffs on manufactured items made in the north, and the count of slaves concerning the electoral college. The South was pissed they were getting stepped all over by the North and decided they didn't want to hang around anymore, and in fact it was a perfectly legal thing to secede from the Union at that time. Where they screwed up was when they started bombarding Ft. Sumpter. I doubt President Lincoln would have done anything about it if the South hadn't started attacking Ft. Sumpter as he didn't have much power at the time. He gained power throughout the Civil War as most presidents do in time of war, and he added his own agenda, the abolishment of slavery, to his list of grievences against the South.

Now, yes, the South screwed up, they shouldn't have started trying to kill northerners, but at the time it was legal to secede under certain conditions. I'm not supporting slavery either, I'm just saying that it wasn't one of the main causes of the civil war and wasn't what the South truly stood for, although it did factor in somewhat.

Anyway, I don't think the confederate flag should be allowed to fly on courthouses and such because it is used as a symbol by the Ku Klux Klan now. However, people have every right to fly that flag on their own if they wish. I've seen people fly british flags, are they considered traitors?

1. It was not legal to secede then. I'd love to see you try to prove that it was.

2. The Southern states seceded over the issue of slavery. There were other issues, but that was the main one.

They said so themselves: Declarations of Causes of Secession (http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html)

My favorite bit is the second paragraph from Mississippi's (emphasis added):

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

3. Laying war against the United States -- defined as treason in the Constitution -- was a tad bit of a mistake. But not the only one.

4. I'm glad you recognize that government entities should not fly the Confederate flag and that, even if you believe the flag was originally an honorable symbol, it has been corrupted.

5. It is still an individual right to fly the Confederate flag. Doesn't make it right. But it is a right.

Here's the thing: if we ban the Confederate Flag, what's to stop us from banning anything that offends us?

Have you ever heard of the Emancipation Proclamation of January 1, 1863?
Yes, but that doesn't help our case. Leave that out.

Here's the thing: if we ban the Confederate Flag, what's to stop us from banning anything that offends us?
I'm not saying ban it. I'm saying let's not have it be the official state flag...

-snip-
It *was* tarrifs, not slavery (http://www.dixieoutfitters.com/heritage/cw3.shtml). This was an article sent to me by my AP teacher, an ardent abolitionist.

I believe this is it (somebody correct me if I'm wrong):
http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~lmortins/civilwar/Confederate%20Flag.jpg
It was the flag of the Confederates in the Civil War, and is still displayed as a sign of 'Southern Pride' or somesuch by some southerners.
That's the Confederate Battle Flag, which is the one that bothers so many African-Americans. The flag of the Confederate States of America, last version, looked like this:

http://img139.echo.cx/img139/6301/flagconfederatestates4ql.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

I'm tired of ppl putting down the confederate flag. All it was was the symbol of the south. nothing more. What are you're people's views

i dont really see it different then the Nazi flag... afterall the nazi flag was just a symbol of nazi germany.. nothing more. Should we put it down ? the short answer is YES... those cultures reflect ideals and practices we today shun.. they reflect those cultures as symbols.. and as such reflect those ideals, wheather you care to admit it or not

That's the Confederate Battle Flag, which is the one that bothers so many African-Americans.

I don't know why. The Union was just as racist, if not more racist, than the Confederacy.

Treason, my ass. Did you know that the vast majority of the Founding Fathers favored the right of secession?

Really? If they had put it in the Constitution, you might have a point. They did not, so you don't.

And yes, levying war against the United States is treason. Article III, section 3 of the US Constitution.

I assume your ass has committed no such crime. But you can turn it in if you have 2 witnesses.

I'm sorry, but Lincoln did have the abolishment of slavery on his agenda. It was a key point in all the Lincoln-Douglas debates. That's why Lincoln had such a low popularity rate compared to Douglas, but most of those didn't vote. Lincoln was liked by less of the majority, but more of the voters, because of his ideas of slavery. The South figured that Lincoln would abolish slavery, which is why they pulled out; that was the main reason the South felt trodden upon by the North. They wanted to keep slavery, and knew Lincoln didn't.

It might have been on his agenda, but he wouldn't have acted on it because he knew the South would do exactly what it did if abolished slavery. In fact alot of the North would probably have rebelled too, which is why he didn't abolish slavery until 1863, sorry I made a mistake last post which said he did it in 1865.

Really? If they had put it in the Constitution, you might have a point. They did not, so you don't.

And yes, levying war against the United States is treason. Article III, section 3 of the US Constitution.

I assume your ass has committed no such crime. But you can turn it in if you have 2 witnesses.

Levying war is treason. Seceding from the Union is not.

Levying war is treason. Seceding from the Union is not.
Attacking federal property is.


(Besides, secession isn't legal. See Texas v. White)

1. It was not legal to secede then. I'd love to see you try to prove that it was.

2. The Southern states seceded over the issue of slavery. There were other issues, but that was the main one.

They said so themselves: Declarations of Causes of Secession (http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html)

My favorite bit is the second paragraph from Mississippi's (emphasis added):

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

3. Laying war against the United States -- defined as treason in the Constitution -- was a tad bit of a mistake. But not the only one.

4. I'm glad you recognize that government entities should not fly the Confederate flag and that, even if you believe the flag was originally an honorable symbol, it has been corrupted.

5. It is still an individual right to fly the Confederate flag. Doesn't make it right. But it is a right.


my.. thats pretty damming evidence if you ask me ^-^... but lets change the focus of the statement a little... is it a right to fly the nazi flag ? by all measures of the law .. it is not. Atleast not openly in public places

It *was* tarrifs, not slavery (http://www.dixieoutfitters.com/heritage/cw3.shtml). This was an article sent to me by my AP teacher, an ardent abolitionist.
Dixie outfitters. Looks like an unbiased source to me.


A question. Why was the north so industrialized and the south so relyant on agriculture?

Rather, what made the south so much more attractive for farming, far more so then the north or the west?

Was it the slaves?

Attacking federal property is.


(Besides, secession isn't legal. See Texas v. White)

It's not legal now, but it was then. Read The Real Lincoln, by Thomas DiLorenzo, specifically the chapter "The Myth of Secession as 'Treason'", and check the footnotes in the bibliography.

I don't know why. The Union was just as racist, if not more racist, than the Confederacy.

If you don't know why, you should ask somebody.

The United States in general was racist at the time by our standards.

"More racist" is a little silly. The ones that insisted that African-Americans were chattel, not persons were a tad more racist.

The South seceded to defend a racist institution -- arguably one of the most racist institutions in history.

After the Civil War, the Confederate flag became a common symbol of white supremacy, lynching, the KKK, segregation, etc. NOT by just a few knuckle-draggers, but as a common symbol used as a rallying point against African-Americans.

Many, many honorable people died on both sides of the Civil War. I do not villify the South as such. America has lots of ugly incidents (and good ones) in its history -- some of which are centered primarily in other regions of the country. But revisionist history is just that revisionist.

By all means, be proud of your heritage. But recognize its warts as well.

(And, for the record, I have many anscestors that fought for the Confederacy -- in fact, that were leaders of the Confederacy. I also have ancestors from the same time period that were hunting Indians in the West. They all are human. They did some good things and some evil. I don't turn a blind eye to either.)

I believe this is it (somebody correct me if I'm wrong):
http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~lmortins/civilwar/Confederate%20Flag.jpg
It was the flag of the Confederates in the Civil War, and is still displayed as a sign of 'Southern Pride' or somesuch by some southerners.
INCORRECT. that is the confederate battle flag. the actual confederate flag looks much different. im to lazy too look it up but feel free to google it. they just used the flag above so that it would stand out more on the battlefield and they didnt accidently shoot there own men. verry common misconception though.
my only beef with the confederate flag is that people want to put it over state capitals. this is stupid. plain and simple. if you want to fly it on your lawn, go ahead. you can paint it on the side of your house if you want too. but placing this on the top of a state capital, where everyones tax money goes is just retarded.

I can't find the exact quote, but Lincoln said something along the lines that if he could have saved the Union w/o freeing the slaves he'd have done it


Might be found in one of these.

http://www.usconstitution.com/Lincoln-DouglasDebates4.htm

http://www.usconstitution.com/Lincoln-DouglasDebates.htm

my.. thats pretty damming evidence if you ask me ^-^... but lets change the focus of the statement a little... is it a right to fly the nazi flag ? by all measures of the law .. it is not. Atleast not openly in public places
it is legal

It's not legal now, but it was then. Read The Real Lincoln, by Thomas DiLorenzo, specifically the chapter "The Myth of Secession as 'Treason'", and check the footnotes in the bibliography.

did the law change from the time of the civil war to the Texas vs white decision ? if not... your point here is moot becuase it WAS infact illegal the entire time. It is not on the Supreme court to dicate rights.. but interpret the consitution itself. They so determined it was ILLEGAL.. meaning it was entirely illegal from the consitutions inception. Unless specific changes were made in the time frame from the civil war to the court case then the Supreme courts decision holds true.

"I will say that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, (applause) -- that I am not, not ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they can not so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

http://www.usconstitution.com/Lincoln-DouglasDebates4.htm

Yep. Lincoln was a racist. Knew that. So?

And that isn't the quote to which Super-power was referring (which doesn't help much either).

Dixie outfitters. Looks like an unbiased source to me.


A question. Why was the north so industrialized and the south so relyant on agriculture?

Rather, what made the south so much more attractive for farming, far more so then the north or the west?

Was it the slaves?
The weather and, in most places, the soil.

Yep. Lincoln was a racist. Knew that. So?

And that isn't the quote to which Super-power was referring (which doesn't help much either).

Yeah, I know. Clicked submit too quick. Should I edit and remove the quote?

I'm tired of ppl putting down the confederate flag. All it was was the symbol of the south. nothing more. What are you're people's views

I like that flag. I do not think it stands for hate.
If the people of the South want to use it then let them do so.
It's a sign of the South.

I don't know why. The Union was just as racist, if not more racist, than the Confederacy.
Because it has become a symbol of slavery. That's what some of my African-American friends have told me.

Me being racially mixed may have warped my mind in some way, but I don't like the confederate flag. A large portion of the disgusting racist acts committed in the south have been accompanied by the flag (as I have seen in photographic evidence and archive film footage). If they paraded around a flag with Scooby Doo on it, I might not like Scooby Doo.

Because it has become a symbol of slavery. That's what some of my African-American friends have told me.

I have many African-American friends, and none of them are offended by it.

Yeah, I know. Clicked submit too quick. Should I edit and remove the quote?

I wouldn't. Many are unaware of Lincoln's true views.

Like many at the time, he was vehemently opposed to slavery. He was still racist.

I like that flag. I do not think it stands for hate.
If the people of the South want to use it then let them do so.
It's a sign of the South.

you have to be more specific.. it was a symbol of the south of that time... and the south was just a collection of cultural traditions.. of which slavery played an overiding roll in.. defining their economy and in many cases their society (many areas more slaves then whites). as such the flag is a sign of that culture.. theirs was a culture of intolerance and slavery. So you get a nice symbol of what slavery was. WHy do you think it is the Nazi flag is a smybol genocide ? or perhaps you would try to argue it is not ?

No, that's just like saying that the New Testament of the bible is against all Jews. I could take you having a monkey as your Icon meaning that you think black americans look like monkeys..

:fluffle: i could take this smiley as meaning that only white people should be together and not black people.

It's all a matter of what you WANT to take it as...

Ladies and Gentlemen:

I give you, THE UNITED STATES OF THE OFFENDED.

I have many African-American friends, and none of them are offended by it.

With all due respect, any sentence that starts with "I have many ____ friends ..." is suspect.

And not all African-Americans think the same. They do not share a hive mind.

Most are aware of the Confederate flag's history as a symbol and are none to fond of it.

As are a lot of the rest of us.

The weather and, in most places, the soil.
The west is arguably better. Especially towards the 1800's as cotton farming began to deplete the soil.

The KKK running around carrying the Battle Flag did alot of damage. I've never liked them using it. I wish they had never marched around displaying it in their rallies.

With all due respect, any sentence that starts with "I have many ____ friends ..." is suspect.

And not all African-Americans think the same. They do not share a hive mind.

Most are aware of the Confederate flag's history as a symbol and are none to fond of it.

As are a lot of the rest of us.

I know they don't all think the same. I was just saying, none of my friends find it offensive. Most of them are anti-Confederate, but they see nothing wrong with the flag being flown, regardless of the place.

I wouldn't. Many are unaware of Lincoln's true views.

Like many at the time, he was vehemently opposed to slavery. He was still racist.

but then the two are mutually exclusive. No one proclaims Lincoln the champion of tolerance.. but the man who ended slavery which lead to tolerance and the fall of racism (as much as racism has fallen in todays society)

I wish that Hippies didn't wear the US Flag as a dress, but they did, that does not mean that everyone thinks america is a bunch of Hippies now did it???

No, that's just like saying that the New Testament of the bible is against all Jews. I could take you having a monkey as your Icon meaning that you think black americans look like monkeys..

:fluffle: i could take this smiley as meaning that only white people should be together and not black people.

It's all a matter of what you WANT to take it as...

Ladies and Gentlemen:

I give you, THE UNITED STATES OF THE OFFENDED.

Ah, the logic of Through the Looking Glass: "`When I use a [historic symbol],' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.' "

I can fly the Nazi flag and create a replica of Auschwitz in my front yard.

I could say the first -- to me -- is a symbol of brotherly love.

And I could say the second -- to me -- is a symbol of freedom.

If you anyone is offended, it is just because they WANT to be.

you have to be more specific.. it was a symbol of the south of that time... and the south was just a collection of cultural traditions.. of which slavery played an overiding roll in.. defining their economy and in many cases their society (many areas more slaves then whites). as such the flag is a sign of that culture.. theirs was a culture of intolerance and slavery. So you get a nice symbol of what slavery was. WHy do you think it is the Nazi flag is a smybol genocide ? or perhaps you would try to argue it is not ?
I like that flag because it stands for the fight of a new nation, the civil war was not started because of the slave issue. That came later, 1863 I think.
I don't like the Nazi flag.

Levying war is treason. Seceding from the Union is not.

The Confederate States declared their secession in early January of 1861. The Union had the option of recognizing the right of these people to self determination, or steadfastly refusing. The attack on Fort Sumter did not occur until April 12. This allowed Lincoln more than 3 months in which to reach a peaceful conclusion, or at least open dialogue with the secessionists. Neither of these things were done. By the attack on Fort Sumter the Confederate States had a.) A Constitution, and b.) A Parliament. They also had the support of the majority of the residents of their respective states. If one considers modern seccessionist movements, such as the ones in Quebec, Canada as well as the breakup of Czechoslovakia one can see parallels that can easily be drawn. The Southern states had a distinctly different culture from that in the North. In both Canada, and Czechoslovakia, elections (gee, what a novel idea for the Yankees) were held on the issue of self-determination. The Slovak and Czech Republics separated, and Quebec remained part of Canada, which is WHAT THE PEOPLE WANTED! The Union's reaction is more like that of Serbia to the secession of Kosovo and Bosnia (which the US fought in, against the Serbs, irony is fun), or that of Russia's reaction to the secesssion of Chechnya. The Confederate Flag is nothing more now than the representation of the South's unique culture, something that IS protected by the first amendment. The fact that it offends some people is too bad, but the South really doesn't have a better symbol of their unique culture.

Just my two cents.

I like that flag because it stands for the fight of a new nation, the civil war was not started because of the slave issue. That came later, 1863 I think.
I don't like the Nazi flag.
I second this

The Confederate States declared their secession in early January of 1861. The Union had the option of recognizing the right of these people to self determination, or steadfastly refusing. The attack on Fort Sumter did not occur until April 12. This allowed Lincoln more than 3 months in which to reach a peaceful conclusion, or at least open dialogue with the secessionists. Neither of these things were done. By the attack on Fort Sumter the Confederate States had a.) A Constitution, and b.) A Parliament. They also had the support of the majority of the residents of their respective states. If one considers modern seccessionist movements, such as the ones in Quebec, Canada as well as the breakup of Czechoslovakia one can see parallels that can easily be drawn. The Southern states had a distinctly different culture from that in the North. In both Canada, and Czechoslovakia, elections (gee, what a novel idea for the Yankees) were held on the issue of self-determination. The Slovak and Czech Republics separated, and Quebec remained part of Canada, which is WHAT THE PEOPLE WANTED! The Union's reaction is more like that of Serbia to the secession of Kosovo and Bosnia (which the US fought in, against the Serbs, irony is fun), or that of Russia's reaction to the secesssion of Chechnya. The Confederate Flag is nothing more now than the representation of the South's unique culture, something that IS protected by the first amendment. The fact that it offends some people is too bad, but the South really doesn't have a better symbol of their unique culture.

Just my two cents.
Don't attack federal property ;)

I like that flag because it stands for the fight of a new nation, the civil war was not started because of the slave issue. That came later, 1863 I think.
I don't like the Nazi flag.

why dont you like the nazi flag i wonder... color just not doing it for you .. confederate flag has red too you know.... Perhaps because its a reflection of what it symbolized.. the NAzi government.. just as the confederate flag is a symbol for the southern government.. both of whom promoted intolerance and prejiduce as a product of state action

and to suggest that slavery played no part in the civil war is to spread ignorance itself. No slavery was not the only issue on the plate.. but surely it was not the smallest, nor the most insignifcant. In fact like in all things there were many reasons why the civil war occured.. and quite frankly.. Slavery was amonger the larger issues. There is more then enough evidence to support this!

Miehm, is that you?

Anyway, you have every right as an individual to fly a symbol of racism, slavery, segregation, and treason -- if you so choose.

And I have every right to "put[] down" such symbol.

Welcome to the United States of America and the First Amendment.

EDIT: And before anyone gets all huffy: I was asked for my views and I gave them. You got the "nice" version.


[FONT=Arial]Are you insuating that segregation and racism was limited to the south only during mid-19th century America? Are you honestly that ignorant?

I fail to realize one point ... what is the difference between the Nazi flag and the Confederate flag.. these two should be treated the same.. as their cultures reflected similar things... So if you so support the Nazi flag the same way you support the confederate flag.. then there is little to argue about. However, if you scronfully reject the Nazi flag as a representation of death and evil, then I can see little room to argue for the symbol of the confederacy.

You simply can't have you cake and eat it too

This is concerning the "right to seceded" of the confederate states, and i am not getting involved in the racial issue.

As a canadian, my family were loyalists in the time of the American Revolution, and my American history is a bit rusty... but my understanding is that the US (north and south) comitted treason, and attacked their own country (Great Britain) in the American Revolution in the late 1700's.
Washington, Jefferson, Adams... fought against the British, who they declared an interfereing "foreign power"
Davis, Lee, Jackson... fought against the Union, whom they declared an interfereing "foreign power"
i once heard the civil war compared to a club... a club is run by many rich members (northern states) and they began to intervene in how the other members made lived and their money (southern states)... is it not the right for these other members to resign from the club?

I know it is simplified, but this is a view from a person without loyalty to either side of the conflict.

[FONT=Arial]Are you insuating that segregation and racism was limited to the south only during mid-19th century America? Are you honestly that ignorant?

No. Definitely not.

And no.

Read on, my friend.

The Confederate Flag is a symbol of sedition and treason. Those who display it are expressing the desire to engage in armed rebellion against the Republic of the United States of America.

They should be treated by law enforcement and Homeland Security as traitors and terrorists.

This is concerning the "right to seceded" of the confederate states, and i am not getting involved in the racial issue.

As a canadian, my family were loyalists in the time of the American Revolution, and my American history is a bit rusty... but my understanding is that the US (north and south) comitted treason, and attacked their own country (Great Britain) in the American Revolution in the late 1700's.
Washington, Jefferson, Adams... fought against the British, who they declared an interfereing "foreign power"
Davis, Lee, Jackson... fought against the Union, whom they declared an interfereing "foreign power"
i once heard the civil war compared to a club... a club is run by many rich members (northern states) and they began to intervene in how the other members made lived and their money (southern states)... is it not the right for these other members to resign from the club?

I know it is simplified, but this is a view from a person without loyalty to either side of the conflict.

simple answer is.. victors dicate what is right and what is wrong.

Since we are comparing the Nazi flag with the Confederate flag, I must draw a parallel of the cultures which created the flags and stood under them. I know someone who was in Auschwitz. The memories are horrible. Even saying the word, "Nazi," you can see the terror in her eyes. Granted, I highly doubt any of us know someone who has been tortured by the Confederacy (because the Confederates were not the actual ones who did the torturing), but the KKK does use the flag. The KKK does torture those who they find "unworthy." I live in Northern Idaho, in the city where the White Supremacists had there headquarters up until recently. When I told someone I was moving here (this was a few years back), they asked me why I'd want to go someplace filled with a bunch of rednecks. They were black, and I could see the betrayal in their eyes.

I have many African-American friends, and none of them are offended by it.
Perhaps it's just an issue in the South then. I don't know.

Since we are comparing the Nazi flag with the Confederate flag, I must draw a parallel of the cultures which created the flags and stood under them. I know someone who was in Auschwitz. The memories are horrible. Even saying the word, "Nazi," you can see the terror in her eyes. Granted, I highly doubt any of us know someone who has been tortured by the Confederacy (because the Confederates were not the actual ones who did the torturing), but the KKK does use the flag. The KKK does torture those who they find "unworthy." I live in Northern Idaho, in the city where the White Supremacists had there headquarters up until recently. When I told someone I was moving here (this was a few years back), they asked me why I'd want to go someplace filled with a bunch of rednecks. They were black, and I could see the betrayal in their eyes.

so we differenciate the two only by time ? and plainly said you are wrong.. the confeders WERE the ones instigating and partaking in the torture of humans.. as slavery was so defined. Nearly all the leaders of the confederacy were slave owners, and most of their prominent supporters were slave owners. And all who followed their cuase supported the act. You see no terror in those black peoples eyes because they did not witness it first hand, but does this mean after the generation of the mid 1900's finally fade, we should forget what the Nazi flag stood for ?

The Confederate Flag is a symbol of sedition and treason. Those who display it are expressing the desire to engage in armed rebellion against the Republic of the United States of America.

They should be treated by law enforcement and Homeland Security as traitors and terrorists.

Right, and by this logic flying a Mexican Flag at a Mexican restaurant in New Mexico or Texas must be illegal as it promotes the wrong side in the US/Mexico war where these states were annexed. Or perhaps you'd like to execute people for eating cajun food in Louisiana, as they are obviously French counter agents trying to undo the Louisiana purchase. Once this kind of idiocy gets started, it is hard to draw the line.

why dont you like the nazi flag i wonder... color just not doing it for you .. confederate flag has red too you know.... Perhaps because its a reflection of what it symbolized.. the NAzi government.. just as the confederate flag is a symbol for the southern government.. both of whom promoted intolerance and prejiduce as a product of state action

and to suggest that slavery played no part in the civil war is to spread ignorance itself. No slavery was not the only issue on the plate.. but surely it was not the smallest, nor the most insignifcant. In fact like in all things there were many reasons why the civil war occured.. and quite frankly.. Slavery was amonger the larger issues. There is more then enough evidence to support this!

What is with you? Why must we agree on this issue????
I never said that the war had nothing to do with the slaves it just wanst why the war started.

so we differenciate the two only by time ? and plainly said you are wrong.. the confeders WERE the ones instigating and partaking in the torture of humans.. as slavery was so defined. Nearly all the leaders of the confederacy were slave owners, and most of their prominent supporters were slave owners. And all who followed their cuase supported the act. You see no terror in those black peoples eyes because they did not witness it first hand, but does this mean after the generation of the mid 1900's finally fade, we should forget what the Nazi flag stood for ?
I think you're misunderstanding me. The Confederacy as a whole was not responsible for the terrors committed by the part. And my black friend did feel betrayed, knowing the potential of destruction of the White Supremacists. Finally, we cannot forget about the Holocaust, because we must prevent such a genocide from happening again. I think we should do anything but forget, because there is no way to grow without rememberance

What is with you? Why must we agree on this issue????
I never said that the war had nothing to do with the slaves it just wanst why the war started.

simply said your wrong... slavery did play a part in the causes for the civil war. THere is no denying it, as endless sources for it can be produced. Im not saying it was the only factor maybe even not the largest..b ut surely one of the most prominent.

on fellow was so kind to produce such evidence http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html in which slavery is clearly outlined as a major cause. And the question is clear, is the flag a symbol of intolerance and slavery... or not... and i simply stated if you dislike the nazi flag for similar reasons.. then you must submit the confederate flag is the same thing

I think you're misunderstanding me. The Confederacy as a whole was not responsible for the terrors committed by the part. And my black friend did feel betrayed, knowing the potential of destruction of the White Supremacists. Finally, we cannot forget about the Holocaust, because we must prevent such a genocide from happening again. I think we should do anything but forget, because there is no way to grow without rememberance

but they supported and propogated those terrors .. how can they not be equally held accountable ? they facilitated those terrors by making it state mandate allowing slavery and protected it by opposing any move to have slavery abolished within the consitution itself

Hang on.. one side here mentioned the Nazi flag - they fufilled Godwin's Law; I claim victory!

We can't possibly continue with showing evidence against arguments, because there will always be conflicting evidence, because people have conflicting points of view (as has been proved by this forum). It really lies within our beliefs, and we can do something about those beliefs, or we can lie around, complaining on the internet, waiting for someone else to do the work for us.

Southern culture from that time is defined by slavery as slavery was the basis for comerce .. the economy itself and played an intergral part of the social class system. Of course then the symbol of that culture would be smybolic of what the culture stood for and practiced... otherwise we have no buisness relating the american flag to the values we have today.. being freedom and liberty

but they supported and propogated those terrors .. how can they not be equally held accountable ? they facilitated those terrors by making it state mandate allowing slavery and protected it by opposing any move to have slavery abolished within the consitution itself
You do have an EXCELLENT point and I am inclined to agree with you, but I simply cannot. That would be like saying that all Germans were Nazis, which simply isn't true. Some fled the country because of persecution, some because they didn't agree with the Nazi policy, and some stayed and were safe-havens for Jews and others being persecuted. Just because a country enacts policies enabling something, it doesn't mean that all citizens are for it and will act upon it.

simply said your wrong... slavery did play a part in the causes for the civil war. THere is no denying it, as endless sources for it can be produced. Im not saying it was the only factor maybe even not the largest..b ut surely one of the most prominent.

on fellow was so kind to produce such evidence http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html in which slavery is clearly outlined as a major cause. And the question is clear, is the flag a symbol of intolerance and slavery... or not... and i simply stated if you dislike the nazi flag for similar reasons.. then you must submit the confederate flag is the same thing
First of all I "MUST" do nothing.
Second, I have put in TWO of my posts that the slave issue WAS a part of the fight BUT it was NOT the issue that started the war.
Again, What is with you?

You do have an EXCELLENT point and I am inclined to agree with you, but I simply cannot. That would be like saying that all Germans were Nazis, which simply isn't true. Some fled the country because of persecution, some because they didn't agree with the Nazi policy, and some stayed and were safe-havens for Jews and others being persecuted. Just because a country enacts policies enabling something, it doesn't mean that all citizens are for it and will act upon it.

but the flag is a symbol of the GOVERNMENT (the state)and the culture it so governs not the people themselves (the nation).. otherwise we can say the Nazi flag should not be attributed with such poor connotations because the german people themselves did not wholely support the Nazi regime. If this were the case flags would be symbols of nothing because they would never (and are never) wholely representative of those who follow it. Not every american agrees with what America stands for perhaps even the freedoms it propogates.. yet this does not negate the connotation given to the flag that is a symbol for freedom and liberty.. because this is what the government so propogates

First of all I "MUST" do nothing.
Second, I have put in TWO of my posts that the slave issue WAS a part of the fight BUT it was NOT the issue that started the war.
Again, What is with you?

I agree with you, but this must be said. Slavery was the BASIS of the economy in the South. It is a matter of how you ask the question.
The averagecitizen would likely have had different responses to the same question posed different ways:
1. It is right for you to shackle, beat, abuse, starve and generally mistreat another human being?
Most would have said no, of course, but lets ask the question another way:
2. Is it right that a bureaucrat in Washington who has never met you should legislate that you, your family, and your entire community should be left destitute, and there will be an economic depression in your area that will not be resolved in your lifetime? Think about you and your family. My views about race and equality aside, I know which side I'd be on.

First of all I "MUST" do nothing.
Second, I have put in TWO of my posts that the slave issue WAS a part of the fight BUT it was NOT the issue that started the war.
Again, What is with you?

there is no ONE single issue which so propagated war. it was a culmination of issues which made the war start. Just like there was no one issue or occurance leading to the revolutionary war.. your over simplifying a complex problem.. THAT is whats with me.. and that is how ignorance is spread.. Realize the complexity of the problem and the persectives change dramatically

I agree with you, but this must be said. Slavery was the BASIS of the economy in the South. It is a matter of how you ask the question.
The averagecitizen would likely have had different responses to the same question posed different ways:
1. It is right for you to shackle, beat, abuse, starve and generally mistreat another human being?
Most would have said no, of course, but lets ask the question another way:
2. Is it right that a bureaucrat in Washington who has never met you should legislate that you, your family, and your entire community should be left destitute, and there will be an economic depression in your area that will not be resolved in your lifetime? Think about you and your family. My views about race and equality aside, I know which side I'd be on.
Second that. I agree fully.

there is no ONE single issue which so propagated war. it was a culmination of issues which made the war start. Just like there was no one issue or occurance leading to the revolutionary war.. your over simplifying a complex problem.. THAT is whats with me.. and that is how ignorance is spread.. Realize the complexity of the problem and the persectives change dramatically
I could have gone into the issue with you. Remember next time just ask.

I agree with you, but this must be said. Slavery was the BASIS of the economy in the South. It is a matter of how you ask the question.
The averagecitizen would likely have had different responses to the same question posed different ways:
1. It is right for you to shackle, beat, abuse, starve and generally mistreat another human being?
Most would have said no, of course, but lets ask the question another way:
2. Is it right that a bureaucrat in Washington who has never met you should legislate that you, your family, and your entire community should be left destitute, and there will be an economic depression in your area that will not be resolved in your lifetime? Think about you and your family. My views about race and equality aside, I know which side I'd be on.

the two aren't mutally exclusive..its basically the "do the ends justify the means" question. if the means of your success lies on the bodies of others... is it so then right for you to continue work as usual ?

I could have gone into the issue with you. Remember next time just ask.

uhhh sure <.< ... just realize the civil war would never have occured without slavery as the backdrop to all tensions between the north and south. As such its very reasonable to see it as a major cause for the war. Perhaps it was not what the SOUTH claimed to be the reaons it was going to succeed.. but then this does not encompass all the CAUSES of the war. like i said, you can't simply oversimplify things

Better that people exist in the here and the now, folx. I can appreciate a healthy respect for history, but to debate so vociferously about a symbol that has not had any valid political significance (i.e., does not represent an acknowledged governmental authority) for more than a century still puzzles me.

Isn't it possible for those American southerners that claim the flag represents their "culture" to celebrate that culture without so divisive a symbol?

After all, can one claim that the NAZI flag should be flown in Europe as a symbol of "culture" or "heritage?"

And yes, the comparison is valid. Slavery and wholesale extermination are kindred cousins.

uhhh sure <.< ... just realize the civil war would never have occured without slavery as the backdrop to all tensions between the north and south. As such its very reasonable to see it as a major cause for the war. Perhaps it was not what the SOUTH claimed to be the reaons it was going to succeed.. but then this does not encompass all the CAUSES of the war. like i said, you can't simply oversimplify things
I never said it had nothing to do with it.
There is no point in talking with you.

the two aren't mutally exclusive..its basically the "do the ends justify the means" question. if the means of your success lies on the bodies of others... is it so then right for you to continue work as usual ?

No, this is not a 'do the ends justify the means' question. This is a question about self determination. To quote one of your earlier posts, this is a complex issue. While we are on the issue of success lying on the bodies of others, the Yankees bought many of the now bankrupt plantations following the Civil War and thereby made a killing on the bodies of others (the people of the South). While on the topic of human rights, right up there with the ones you hold so dear is the right to self determination (circa 1945), which was owed to, but denied the people of the Confederacy. Besides this,benevolent leaders freeing large numbers of slaves is terrible for a region overall. Tsar Alexander II of Russia did so at about the same time as the Civil War. This was so successful that by the First World War his nation could only afford boots for one soldier in three, and a rifle for each man in five.

I'm tired of ppl putting down the confederate flag. All it was was the symbol of the south. nothing more. What are you're people's views

Was a symbol of the south.

I don't understand. Sure, you have a right to fly the flag of a failed country, whose economy depended on slavery

But... why? They lost. They won't be rising again. Get over it.

uhhh sure <.< ... just realize the civil war would never have occured without slavery as the backdrop to all tensions between the north and south. As such its very reasonable to see it as a major cause for the war. Perhaps it was not what the SOUTH claimed to be the reaons it was going to succeed.. but then this does not encompass all the CAUSES of the war. like i said, you can't simply oversimplify things

Oversimplify things?!!
Let me summarize all of your posts: I am right and you are wrong! Racism Bad!
Wow, you sure covered all the shades of grey there!

I never said it had nothing to do with it.
There is no point in talking with you.

lol... its like you dont even read my arguements.. or just disreguard them in their entirety.. im showing you how slavery is a leading cause of the war... and you simply choose to focuse on what the CONFEDERACY may have claimed as their soul reason for suceading rather then taking all historical facts into account.. why not just the only cause of the Iraq war is that the US invaded :rolleyes:

The Confederate States of America was no where near as bad as Nazi Germany so I have no idea why you are comparing Nazis to Confederates. Either way, Im from the south and I like most southernors have pride in my heritage (like most people around the world actually). I also respect the Confederate flag and I own several and fly them at my free will.

I am not defending slavery or the Civil War, the problems MOST LIKELY could have been solved peacefully. But, Lincoln did not intend to free slaves at the start of the civil war. He meant to preserve the Union. He freed the slaves in an effort to keep the South from being able to farm its cotton and foods, thus weakening it. It was a good idea for it helped preserve the Union, and made sure that all men, (and women) are created equal.

The 'total war' against the South was also a bad idea, the North knew it was going to win after the Battle of Gettysburg, July 1st - 3rd.

In conclusion, fly the flag whereever you want but on top of government buildings, for there should sit the flag of the United States of America.

The Confederate States of America was no where near as bad as Nazi Germany so I have no idea why you are comparing Nazis to Confederates. Either way, Im from the south and I like most southernors have pride in my heritage (like most people around the world actually). I also respect the Confederate flag and I own several and fly them at my free will.

I am not defending slavery or the Civil War, the problems MOST LIKELY could have been solved peacefully. But, Lincoln did not intend to free slaves at the start of the civil war. He meant to preserve the Union. He freed the slaves in an effort to keep the South from being able to farm its cotton and foods, thus weakening it. It was a good idea for it helped preserve the Union, and make sure that all man, (and women) are created equal.

THANK YOU!

This shows that:
1. The flag is a symbol of cultural identity

2. The freeing of slaves was at least partly related to a wartime strategy

Oversimplify things?!!
Let me summarize all of your posts: I am right and you are wrong! Racism Bad!
Wow, you sure covered all the shades of grey there!

sorry if im shooting down all the misconceptions you people spew... if thats just too condiencing for you with your apparent inability to provide some kind of evidence for your stance while you repeat the same dribble over and over "slavery was not a cause of the war..." which is obviously FAULSE by all historical accounts, then perhaps the one sided debate should end shoudln't it... seeing how you people just fail to engage

The Confederate States of America was no where near as bad as Nazi Germany so I have no idea why you are comparing Nazis to Confederates. Either way, Im from the south and I like most southernors have pride in my heritage (like most people around the world actually). I also respect the Confederate flag and I own several and fly them at my free will.

I am not defending slavery or the Civil War, the problems MOST LIKELY could have been solved peacefully. But, Lincoln did not intend to free slaves at the start of the civil war. He meant to preserve the Union. He freed the slaves in an effort to keep the South from being able to farm its cotton and foods, thus weakening it. It was a good idea for it helped preserve the Union, and made sure that all men, (and women) are created equal.

The 'total war' against the South was also a bad idea, the North knew it was going to win after the Battle of Gettysburg, July 1st - 3rd.

In conclusion, fly the flag whereever you want but on top of government buildings, for there should sit the flag of the United States of America.

I tend to disagree.. enslavement of people, with the buying and selling of them as property and the killing in equivalent terms is just as bad as trying to eradicate them.. The confederacy was just as bad... they faciliated slavery .. the only difference beteween them and Nazi germany is that the Nazis killed th eir targets directly.. the confederates did it indirectly, though just as purposfully...

and you misinterpret Lincolns true intentions.. HE ALWAYS intended to free the slaves.. but through a constitutional amendment.. that is why he waited so long. Because had he simply passed a law freeing all slaves within the union it would have been less engraned in our society, where as if a constitutional amendment were to be passed it would be enshrined in the supreme law of the land. He couldn't well do this before the civil war because one of the opposition and two the stability of the Union. Obviously he wasn't going to sacrifice the Union itself for an idea that couldn't pass given the circumstances. But given his actions we can deduce (from historical evidence) the imancipation of the slaves was for some time his final intention

sorry if im shooting down all the misconceptions you people spew... if thats just too condiencing for you with your apparent inability to provide some kind of evidence for your stance while you repeat the same dribble over and over "slavery was not a cause of the war..." which is obviously FAULSE by all historical accounts, then perhaps the one sided debate should end shoudln't it... seeing how you people just fail to engage

Oh yes, Right to self determination...DRIVEL, the idea that slavery could have been phased out in a manner that wouldn't have economically crippled half of the United States...DRIVEL, the concept that a group of people who went to war to protect these things might be allowed to express their culture...DRIVEL. the idea that the struggle of a people (right or wrong) to express their national ideals is something that might hold some merit...DRIVEL
Well we can all see where your values lie. People should just lie down and listen to what Big Brother tells them and to hell with what it does to their culture, economy, or sense of identity. Thanks for being the voice of enlightenment.

Lincoln said: "I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is a physical difference between the two, which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality; and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I ... am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position."

He also said, "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could do it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that.."

His intentions of fighting the South did NOT lie with abolishing slavery, but to save the Union. Even though Lincoln died in April of 1865, the Thirteenth Amendment which abolished slavery was not instituted until eight months later, nearly three years from his "slave freeing" Emancipation Proclamation.

Another Lincoln quote was, "Your race suffers greatly, many of them by living among us, while ours suffers from your presence. If this is admitted, it affords a reason why we should be separated." - quoted from John Hope Franklin's book, "From Slavery to Freedom"


Heres some proof that you asked for earlier, quoted right off of this site. And dont worry, ALL of the quotes are accurate.

http://www.greatdreams.com/lincoln.htm


Thanks, :-)

sorry if im shooting down all the misconceptions you people spew... if thats just too condiencing for you with your apparent inability to provide some kind of evidence for your stance while you repeat the same dribble over and over "slavery was not a cause of the war..." which is obviously FAULSE by all historical accounts, then perhaps the one sided debate should end shoudln't it... seeing how you people just fail to engage


Yeah you asked for it right there, sorry I didnt quote it in my previous post.

Oh yes, Right to self determination...DRIVEL

Given their failor and treason.. yes
EDIT: (let me rephrase that.. yesterdays failed freedom fighter is todays treacherous terrorist)

the idea that slavery could have been phased out in a manner that wouldn't have economically crippled half of the United States...DRIVEL

Given historical evidence that up until this point the South had activily opposed any and all moves even ADDRESSING the issue of slavery..YES! this was never even on their agenda prior

the concept that a group of people who went to war to protect these things might be allowed to express their culture...DRIVEL.

Given the reality that thier culture economically, socially and politically was defined by the ENSLAVEMENT of others... and that the flag of such a culture is the symbol of that culture.. YES!!!

the idea that the struggle of a people (right or wrong) to express their national ideals is something that might hold some merit...DRIVEL

here i may agree.. perhaps there maybe some merit to the expression of national idenities how ever short lived that nation was. HOWEVER, any nation built on the suffering of others who propogate intolerance should be held suspect!

Well we can all see where your values lie. People should just lie down and listen to what Big Brother tells them and to hell with what it does to their culture, economy, or sense of identity. Thanks for being the voice of enlightenment.

Do you even know your history in these respects ? PErhaps if the south atempted to Engage the north on the issue of the slavery rather then restricting it within the halls of congress so much tension would not have built. In stead of engaging the south wanted it THEIR WAY and no other way. Then tried to dictate their own law... and today is the result of that. That flag DOES reflect confederate culture.. a culture defined by slavery. Is that the nationallity you want to pay tribute to ? Perhaps we should allow the south to pay its tribute.. so long as PROPER education is given out as to what that flag ACTUALLY is representative of. And im glad I could bestow some enlightenment on the abhorrent insinuations which are made here

*snip*

Thanks, :-)

These points were raised earlier.

They are a red herring.

The views of Lincoln on race have nothing to do with the motives of the South in seceding.

By the Southern states' own Declarations of Secession, the primary motive -- the overwhelming issue -- was the preservation of slavery.

Slavery was the warp and woof of the Confederacy -- and therefore of the "heritage" of the flag(s) of the Confederacy.

Moreover, quibbling about the causes of the Civil War -- as wrong as they may be -- do little to rehabilitate the sordid history of the Confederate flag(s) since the Civil War.

It is interesting to note that the Emacipation Proclamation actually did nothing. Basically, because the President did not have the power to free the slaves. It was a nice speech, but it had no real power. The power came when the Union won the war. Having won the war, the flag that should be flying over any government building, should be the Unions.
Of course, in some parts of the south, they will tell you they didn't lose the war, they just quit fighting. Those are the people that are really scary. And part of the reason why the confederate flag is still hanging around.

Miehm, is that you?

Anyway, you have every right as an individual to fly a symbol of racism, slavery, segregation, and treason -- if you so choose.

And I have every right to "put[] down" such symbol.

Welcome to the United States of America and the First Amendment.

EDIT: And before anyone gets all huffy: I was asked for my views and I gave them. You got the "nice" version.

if history serves me..the civil war was about states rights...not "racism" or segragation.
the whole slavery issue was an afterthought of the the norths war.or should i say the federalists.many believe the whole slave issue was to recruit people of color to fight against the south.

i have always found slavery abhorent,but the war was not about that.and i have always been from the north..born in nyc...they recruited the irish right off the boat to fight.the north wanted to win...and did what was needed to acheive that end.they used the slavery issue to recruit blacks and to incite anger out of the liberal north...it was nothing more then bush's wmd excuse

who ever wins the war writes the history.... :mp5:

Really? If they had put it in the Constitution, you might have a point. They did not, so you don't.

And yes, levying war against the United States is treason. Article III, section 3 of the US Constitution.

I assume your ass has committed no such crime. But you can turn it in if you have 2 witnesses.

I like this arguement from a country based on Treason. Declaraction of Independence and then attcking the British is no different then what the south did. I'd say your whole country is based on traitors and would explain why the south felt they could break of if they wanted to.

if history serves me..the civil war was about states rights...not "racism" or segragation.
the whole slavery issue was an afterthought of the the norths war.or should i say the federalists.many believe the whole slave issue was to recruit people of color to fight against the south.

i have always found slavery abhorent,but the war was not about that.and i have always been from the north..born in nyc...they recruited the irish right off the boat to fight.the north wanted to win...and did what was needed to acheive that end.they used the slavery issue to recruit blacks and to incite anger out of the liberal north...it was nothing more then bush's wmd excuse

who ever wins the war writes the history.... :mp5:

As I documented before (and will undoubtedly have to repeat many more times), the South seceded to preserve slavery -- ACCORDING TO THE SOUTHERN STATES AT THE TIME.

Declaration of Causes of Seceding States (http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html)

As I said before, my favorite passage is the second paragraph from Mississippi (emphasis added):

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

if history serves me..the civil war was about states rights...not "racism" or segragation.
the whole slavery issue was an afterthought of the the norths war.or should i say the federalists.many believe the whole slave issue was to recruit people of color to fight against the south.

i have always found slavery abhorent,but the war was not about that.and i have always been from the north..born in nyc...they recruited the irish right off the boat to fight.the north wanted to win...and did what was needed to acheive that end.they used the slavery issue to recruit blacks and to incite anger out of the liberal north...:

Perfect, especially about the last part of the first section/ paragraph.
All the North wanted was to preserve the Union, and to defeat the South they needed all the help they could get, thanks in part to General Robert E. Lee.

it was nothing more then bush's wmd excuse

who ever wins the war writes the history.... :mp5:


The first part of that is "junk" lol, im sorry but WMD's weren't an excuse. Otherwise you're mostly correct about "whoever wins the war writes the history.." (Getting back on topic)

Given their failor and treason.. yes
EDIT: (let me rephrase that.. yesterdays failed freedom fighter is todays treacherous terrorist)



Given historical evidence that up until this point the South had activily opposed any and all moves even ADDRESSING the issue of slavery..YES! this was never even on their agenda prior



Given the reality that thier culture economically, socially and politically was defined by the ENSLAVEMENT of others... and that the flag of such a culture is the symbol of that culture.. YES!!!


here i may agree.. perhaps there maybe some merit to the expression of national idenities how ever short lived that nation was. HOWEVER, any nation built on the suffering of others who propogate intolerance should be held suspect!



Do you even know your history in these respects ? PErhaps if the south atempted to Engage the north on the issue of the slavery rather then restricting it within the halls of congress so much tension would not have built. In stead of engaging the south wanted it THEIR WAY and no other way. Then tried to dictate their own law... and today is the result of that. That flag DOES reflect confederate culture.. a culture defined by slavery. Is that the nationallity you want to pay tribute to ? Perhaps we should allow the south to pay its tribute.. so long as PROPER education is given out as to what that flag ACTUALLY is representative of. And im glad I could bestow some enlightenment on the abhorrent insinuations which are made here

By this logic, the flag of the United States is based in a culture wherein the stripping of the Native Peoples of their rights followed by two centuries of murder, hatred, genocide, and domination is paramount. But you're okay with this.

I like this arguement from a country based on Treason. Declaraction of Independence and then attcking the British is no different then what the south did. I'd say your whole country is based on traitors and would explain why the south felt they could break of if they wanted to.


Which is why Britain helped the south, and promised to buy raw materials from them?
We aren't a country based on treason, more like freedom from oppresive rule. The country just didn't bother including everyone from the start and we had to have a fight to settle it.

I like this arguement from a country based on Treason. Declaraction of Independence and then attcking the British is no different then what the south did. I'd say your whole country is based on traitors and would explain why the south felt they could break of if they wanted to.

Hold up a second, dont bring the revolutionary war from Britain into this. The British were mistreating the colonies, so they declared independance. However I do like the analogy, the North was mistreating the South, so they tried to declare independance.

I like this arguement from a country based on Treason. Declaraction of Independence and then attcking the British is no different then what the south did. I'd say your whole country is based on traitors and would explain why the south felt they could break of if they wanted to.

Actually, the Founding Fathers were rather clear on taking responsibility for treason against the British.

And the Declaration of Independence is rather clear why.

As a believer in the principles of the Declaration and the Constitution, I have no problem with the flag that symbolizes our Republic.

But anyone that claims to be a citizen of the US and flies the Confederate flag has some explaining to do.

Not to mention that unlike the Declaration of Independence, the Declarations of Secession are mainly about the need to preserve slavery.

Just out of curiousity, how would you feel if you were an African American and saw a flag that represented a nation that REFUSED to give you rights. When people fly the Confederate flag, they usually agree with what it stood for: a nation that "needed" slaves because the poor plantation owners couldn't afford servants. The slaves were treated HORRIBLY! The Confederate flag represents the Confederate ideology.

the civil war ended when?
civil rights began when?
if i was african american...following you logic..i wouldn't want to see the american flag either.
funny how the fact that after the war(civil)...blacks were treated just as shabbily as before..till the 1960's....is overlooked.
the same argument could be said that the federal gov. needed slaves for it's war against the south....and got them..and after the war it took more then a century to give them rights?
it was never about slavery...it was about the federal gov trying to assert it's dominance over the states...other issues as well...but that was the driving force behind the war..not slavery,the people in power couldn't have cared less about slaves...it is shown by the unarguable fact that they were never givin rights till the 60"s..a century or more later

Hold up a second, dont bring the revolutionary war from Britain into this. The British were mistreating the colonies, so they declared independance. However I do like the analogy, the North was mistreating the South, so they tried to declare independance.


Hey hey, just because you didn't want to pay your taxes like everyone else didn't mean The British were mistreating you since the US at the time paid less tax and British people or any of the common wealth. But yes really thats my analogy you start with revolution you breed revolutions.

Hey hey, just because you didn't want to pay your taxes like everyone else didn't mean The British were mistreating you

We wouldn't have minded paying taxes if we would have had representatives in the British Parliament. Heres an example, your school board has 20 representatives, one from each school in your area. Each of these votes on how much each student has to pay to go to school. But you go to the 21st school, which has no reps. How do you feel about not having a say? That's what happened with Britain (the school board) and the colonies (the 21st school).

Everyone makes a big deal over how it was a war about "slavery". In actuality it was a war about states rights, the efforts of the north to financially weaken the south by placing high tariffs on items such as cotton while lowering tariffs on manufactured items made in the north, and the count of slaves concerning the electoral college. The South was pissed they were getting stepped all over by the North and decided they didn't want to hang around anymore, and in fact it was a perfectly legal thing to secede from the Union at that time. Where they screwed up was when they started bombarding Ft. Sumpter. I doubt President Lincoln would have done anything about it if the South hadn't started attacking Ft. Sumpter as he didn't have much power at the time. He gained power throughout the Civil War as most presidents do in time of war, and he added his own agenda, the abolishment of slavery, to his list of grievences against the South.

Now, yes, the South screwed up, they shouldn't have started trying to kill northerners, but at the time it was legal to secede under certain conditions. I'm not supporting slavery either, I'm just saying that it wasn't one of the main causes of the civil war and wasn't what the South truly stood for, although it did factor in somewhat.

Anyway, I don't think the confederate flag should be allowed to fly on courthouses and such because it is used as a symbol by the Ku Klux Klan now. However, people have every right to fly that flag on their own if they wish. I've seen people fly british flags, are they considered traitors?


could not say it better myself..

If you don't know why, you should ask somebody.

The United States in general was racist at the time by our standards.

"More racist" is a little silly. The ones that insisted that African-Americans were chattel, not persons were a tad more racist.

The South seceded to defend a racist institution -- arguably one of the most racist institutions in history.

After the Civil War, the Confederate flag became a common symbol of white supremacy, lynching, the KKK, segregation, etc. NOT by just a few knuckle-draggers, but as a common symbol used as a rallying point against African-Americans.

Many, many honorable people died on both sides of the Civil War. I do not villify the South as such. America has lots of ugly incidents (and good ones) in its history -- some of which are centered primarily in other regions of the country. But revisionist history is just that revisionist.

By all means, be proud of your heritage. But recognize its warts as well.

(And, for the record, I have many anscestors that fought for the Confederacy -- in fact, that were leaders of the Confederacy. I also have ancestors from the same time period that were hunting Indians in the West. They all are human. They did some good things and some evil. I don't turn a blind eye to either.)

iam impressed with your ability to see both sides.
oh..i agree with you on alot of what you say

Look, I live in Maryland and I have no problem with the Confederate flag nor do I support slavary. However, it is a little known fact that the only reason that Maryland did not succede from the Union is because soldiers were sent by Lincoln during the vote to "influence" Maryland's decision. Also Lincoln never had the intention of freeing the slaves, no matter what your morals tell you. The north was just as bad as the south. During Lincoln's campaign he made these two speeches:

Chicago, July 10, 1958
Let us discard all this quibbling about this man and the other man, this race and that race and the other race being inferior, and therefore they must be placed in an inferior position. Let us discard all these things, and unite as one people throughout this land, until we shall once more stand up declaring that all men are created equal

This is the Lincoln that all northerners remember and LOVE to brag about. However, just two months later in the south..

Charleston, September 18, 1858:
I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races [applause from crowd]: that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of the negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people...
And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Lincoln. But think next time you call the south racist and traitors.

but the flag is a symbol of the GOVERNMENT (the state) and the culture it so governs not the people themselves (the nation).. otherwise we can say the Nazi flag should not be attributed with such poor connotations because the german people themselves did not wholely support the Nazi regime. If this were the case flags would be symbols of nothing because they would never (and are never) wholely representative of those who follow it. Not every american agrees with what America stands for perhaps even the freedoms it propogates.. yet this does not negate the connotation given to the flag that is a symbol for freedom and liberty.. because this is what the government so propogates

Oy gevalt.

A flag is a symbol, and I leave symbols to the symbolminded.

These points were raised earlier.

They are a red herring.

The views of Lincoln on race have nothing to do with the motives of the South in seceding.

By the Southern states' own Declarations of Secession, the primary motive -- the overwhelming issue -- was the preservation of slavery.

Slavery was the warp and woof of the Confederacy -- and therefore of the "heritage" of the flag(s) of the Confederacy.

Moreover, quibbling about the causes of the Civil War -- as wrong as they may be -- do little to rehabilitate the sordid history of the Confederate flag(s) since the Civil War.

Cat-Tribe, you are my NS hero. Bless your reason, temperament and sanity.

By this logic, the flag of the United States is based in a culture wherein the stripping of the Native Peoples of their rights followed by two centuries of murder, hatred, genocide, and domination is paramount. But you're okay with this.

OUTSTANDING RIPOSTE! Well said and hear, hear!

We wouldn't have minded paying taxes if we would have had representatives in the British Parliament. Heres an example, your school board has 20 representatives, one from each school in your area. Each of these votes on how much each student has to pay to go to school. But you go to the 21st school, which has no reps. How do you feel about not having a say? That's what happened with Britain (the school board) and the colonies (the 21st school).

You must admit, though, that being an entire ocean away from Mother England when it took weeks to cross made the decision for independence a bit easier. Had the American English colonies been, say, Scotland, with that ocean between them, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson might have been Robert Roy MacGregor (sp?) and William Wallace (I know those are centuries apart -- it's the analogy I'm looking for, not chronology).

To end this flurry of posts after reading and responding to this entire thread (lots of good arguments again...love this place), I offer this story.

There's an anthology by Black author Percival Everett called Damned If I Do. In it is an essay entitled "On the Appropriation of Cultures". This stroy describes the ingenious and subtle movement that helped get the Confederate Battle Flag off the South Carolina state capitol building.

It seems Percival was looking for a used truck to do some hauling back in late 1999. He didn't need it for more than a few months, so he was looking for something old and on its last legs but that could still be useful. He scoured the want ads and found what he needed. He called up the seller and arranged to meet him at the truck's location. When he gets there, with his wife, he discovers that he's in, for lack of a better way to put it, Confederacy central. Signs of White trash suburbia are everywhere. Percival, undaunted, strides up to the mobile home and rings the bell. Apparently, Percival had sounded White on the phone, for the look on the seller's face was one of surprise.

Percival asks if he and the seller can test-drive it, and they do. Upon reaching the truck, Percival notices a sizeable Confederate battle flag decal on the rear window, but says nothing. Percival's wife can see the unease with which the seeler is looking to the decal and surreptitiously back to Percival. They get in the truck and test-drive it. When they get back, Percival decides to buy it without so much as trying to talk the seller down. Surprised by this, the seller, upon retrieving the title for the truck, says, "I'll get a razor blade and take that decal off the back window for you." But Percival, instead of agreeing, says, "What decal? Oh! You mean the Black Power flag? Nah, that's fine, leave it on."

The seller at first acts as though he's just avoided a little scraping work, but then freezes. "The what flag?" he asks, not offended or irked, but confused. "The Black Power flag. You can leave that on, it's okay," says Percival in a voice that betrays no hint of sarcasm or subterfuge. He pays the seller, who signs the title; they shake hands and Percival and his wife drive away.

Later that week, while hauling some things in the truck, Percival pulls in to a convenience store for gas and some water. Out front are a group of Black teenagers and coming out of the store is an older Black man. As Percival approaches the entrance, the boys notice the flag decal and immediately raise a hue and cry.

"What the hell are you doin' with that thing on your truck?" and several other such comments are hurled in a kind of confused but potentially irritated unison. The exiting man pauses on hearing this, glances at the decal and then at Percival -- not wanting to exacerbate the situation, but very curious to hear the answer to the same question in his own head.

"What -- you mean the Black Power flag?" Percival said as he gestured toward the truck, and giving a knowing, subversive look to the older man. Amid choruses of "What?" and "Man, you crazy!" and whatnot, the older man exiting the store walks over and and, having recognized an underground movement when he's seen one, says, "Oh yes, the Black Power flag. Right on, brother." Percival inwardly sighed in relief and looked back over to the group of young men, raising his eyebrows. The apparent leader of this troupe catches on and settles his boys down by saying, "Oh-- oh yeah! You know, fellas, the Black Power flag!" They all get it, and nod to one another and to Percival appreciatively.

Within a week, Percival begins to notice Confederate battle flags on more and more cars, trucks and even minivans piloted by Black drivers. No arguments, no yelling, no shouting -- just a dramatic increase in the frequency of the flag's appearance all over the city of Columbia. In fact, the flag began coming off the vehicles of some White drivers.

On April 12, 2000, the South Carolina state senate finally passed a bill to remove the flag by a majority of 36-7. The bill specified that a more traditional version of the battle flag (square shaped as opposed to the rectangular flag now flying above the statehouse) would be flown in front of the Capitol next to a monument honoring fallen Confederate soldiers. The bill then went to the House, where it encountered some difficulty. But on May 18, 2000, after the bill was modified to ensure that the height of the flag's new pole would be 30 feet, it was passed by a majority of 66 to 43, and Governor Jim Hodges signed the bill five days later. On July 1, the flag was removed from the South Carolina statehouse.

Now I'm not saying that Percival alone did this (Kweisi Mfume and the NAACP had much to do with it), but similar subtle usurpations and appropriations across the state helped remove that flag. To me, that kind of subtlety and chutzpah is brilliant.

To those who say that the Confederate flag is racist, I ask you this. Is the British flag racist, is the French flag racist, is the Portugese flag racist, and is the Egyptian flag racist. All of these nations used slaves.

Also, there was slavery in the north. But it ended with the Revolutionary war. The north had other things to fall back on, and the south did not. The north had factories while the south had nothing but slave plantations. Also, I'll put it to you the way my AP US History told me. When it came to blacks, the north embraced the person as an individual, but disliked them as a race. There was just as much hate and discontent for them in the north.

And the civil war was a matter of states' rights. South Carolina seceded from the union in 1860 when Lincoln was elected president without a single Electoral vote from any southern state. And for the first half of the war, the south was winning. Because they had a reason to fight, while the northern troops had low morale, and they were only fighting because they had to. The tides did not turn until the Emancipation Proclomation which 'freed the slaves' In all actuality, the Emancipation Proclomation did not free a single slave. It said that the slaves in states that are in the rebellion. Well...I hate to break it to you but they had no control over them and they weren't their slaves to free. But with the Emancipation Proclomation came the North's reason to fight. That is when the war turned into an issue of slavery. And it boosted the moral of the northern troops, and that is when they started to win the war.

But the Confederate flag is in no way shap or form a symbol of hatred and racism. Its heritage not hate.

EDIT: I would also like to add, that in the History of South Carolina, the man that had more slaves than any other was a black man in Charleston.

Also, there was slavery in the north. But it ended with the Revolutionary war. The north had other things to fall back on, and the south did not. The north had factories while the south had nothing but slave plantations. Also, I'll put it to you the way my AP US History told me. When it came to blacks, the north embraced the person as an individual, but disliked them as a race. There was just as much hate and discontent for them in the north.
Very good post, except for this paragraph. Slavery wasn't ended during the revolutionary war. There was supposed to be an end to slave trade in the early 1800's (not sure of the year). This wasn't followed very well though.

Pay attention everyone else...THE NORTH WAS FULL OF SLAVE OWNERS TOO. George Washington was one of the many founding fathers who had slaves.

To the dude who brought WMD's into this...don't even start. The liberal media hid the fact from most of the country that it was CLINTON's people who claimed that there were WMD's in Iraq. If you don't remember, Bush's people couldn't find any in the very short amount of time before the war started.

Slavery only came under serious question when the industrial age started, it wasnt really a moral issue, industry took the place of slaves, so industrialised countrys no longer saw the need for it, you could argue that the white peasants of olde england were almost in the same catagory as slaves.
Believe me, if industry hadnt come along, slavery would still be here.

To the dude who brought WMD's into this...don't even start. The liberal media hid the fact from most of the country that it was CLINTON's people who claimed that there were WMD's in Iraq. If you don't remember, Bush's people couldn't find any in the very short amount of time before the war started.

ONE person brought it up in ONE post. Nobody mentioned it again after that. :rolleyes:

By this logic, the flag of the United States is based in a culture wherein the stripping of the Native Peoples of their rights followed by two centuries of murder, hatred, genocide, and domination is paramount. But you're okay with this.

it is true.. like every other flag, the stars and stripes is soaked with the blood of those it took advantage of. Even slavery before the civil war. However, since then it has redeemed itself to a large extent, and is today the becon of all upon which humanity should strive for. The confederate flag however lived and died wraped in the arms of slavery.. Perhaps it would have been different has it been the victor.. but we shall never know now.

To those who say that the Confederate flag is racist, I ask you this. Is the British flag racist, is the French flag racist, is the Portugese flag racist, and is the Egyptian flag racist. All of these nations used slaves.

Also, there was slavery in the north. But it ended with the Revolutionary war. The north had other things to fall back on, and the south did not. The north had factories while the south had nothing but slave plantations. Also, I'll put it to you the way my AP US History told me. When it came to blacks, the north embraced the person as an individual, but disliked them as a race. There was just as much hate and discontent for them in the north.

And the civil war was a matter of states' rights. South Carolina seceded from the union in 1860 when Lincoln was elected president without a single Electoral vote from any southern state. And for the first half of the war, the south was winning. Because they had a reason to fight, while the northern troops had low morale, and they were only fighting because they had to. The tides did not turn until the Emancipation Proclomation which 'freed the slaves' In all actuality, the Emancipation Proclomation did not free a single slave. It said that the slaves in states that are in the rebellion. Well...I hate to break it to you but they had no control over them and they weren't their slaves to free. But with the Emancipation Proclomation came the North's reason to fight. That is when the war turned into an issue of slavery. And it boosted the moral of the northern troops, and that is when they started to win the war.

But the Confederate flag is in no way shap or form a symbol of hatred and racism. Its heritage not hate.

EDIT: I would also like to add, that in the History of South Carolina, the man that had more slaves than any other was a black man in Charleston.

each nation you described is not DEFINED by the use of slavery... yes each one did use it, however, they survived those times and have formed new cultures from which to live on. The confederate flag lived and died in the arms of slavery embrasing it, and it is a black stain on this nations history. It is representative of a culture DEFINED by slavery as it encompassed the economy, the social structure, and its politics. This is simple history... a flag is made to symbolize culture and a nation.. the confederate nation was a nation built on the backs of slaves and died on those same backs. How then can we identifiy it with anything else, as it did not survive to change that fate!

and yes.. the north was not free of intolerance or racism.. that does not change the reality that the confederate flag is a symbol of racisim and slavery.. The difference is.. as i stated, the US has since moved on from this culture and built a new for which our flag today symbolizes... perhaps had the confederacy survived.. it might have had a different fate
and your very right.. it is heritage.. but it is a heritage of hate !

On an unrelated note, I'm getting really ticked off at these forums for logging me out while I'm typing my posts.

Since I don't feel like retyping the whole thing...

I'm really surprised that none of you people are communications majors worth your salt. Or are all of them so tired of this they just don't bother anymore?

To those who say that the Confederate flag is racist, I ask you this. Is the British flag racist, is the French flag racist, is the Portugese flag racist, and is the Egyptian flag racist. All of these nations used slaves.

None of those flags was created as the symbol of a "nation" founded on the preservation of slavery.

Nor was the flag of these nations used as a rallying cry for segregation, lynchings, or the KKK.

The Confederate flag has stood for little else but slavery, segregation, racism, and treason.

Although Britian, France, Portugal, Egypt, and the United States have all had ugly episodes in their histories, the flags of those nations stand for much more than those ugly episodes.

Also, there was slavery in the north. But it ended with the Revolutionary war. The north had other things to fall back on, and the south did not. The north had factories while the south had nothing but slave plantations. Also, I'll put it to you the way my AP US History told me. When it came to blacks, the north embraced the person as an individual, but disliked them as a race. There was just as much hate and discontent for them in the north.

Appeal to your AP US History teacher is (a) unverifiable and (b) unpersuasive.

Perhaps your AP US History teacher does not understand this particular issue very well.

Slavery in the North did not end with the Revolutionary War.

Slavery was always primarily in the South. It was by what the South was defined.

There was lots of racism throughout the US, but it is simply not true to say it was as bad in the North as it was in the South: would you rather be hated but free or hated and a slave?

Trivializing the horrors of slavery gets you nowhere.

And I return to this point, but did you cover segregation at all in your AP US History class. The Klu Klux Klan? The Citizens' Council? The Black Codes? Jim Crow laws? Emmitt Till? Bull Connor using dogs and firehouses against nonviolent protesting children? (I could go on and on and on ... There is at least 100 years of ugly racial history after the Civil War that I hope wasn't glossed over in your class.)

And the civil war was a matter of states' rights.

Revisionist: The civil war wasn't about slavery it was about states' rights.

Q: What states' right?

R: The right to preserve slavery.

Q: :eek:

South Carolina seceded from the union in 1860 when Lincoln was elected president without a single Electoral vote from any southern state.

Primarily because Lincoln was seen as a threat to slavery, he received little popular vote in the South. As I have documented several times, the Southern states then seceded -- declaring the preservation of slavery the primary reasons they were doing so.

And for the first half of the war, the south was winning. Because they had a reason to fight, while the northern troops had low morale, and they were only fighting because they had to. The tides did not turn until the Emancipation Proclomation which 'freed the slaves' In all actuality, the Emancipation Proclomation did not free a single slave. It said that the slaves in states that are in the rebellion. Well...I hate to break it to you but they had no control over them and they weren't their slaves to free. But with the Emancipation Proclomation came the North's reason to fight. That is when the war turned into an issue of slavery. And it boosted the moral of the northern troops, and that is when they started to win the war.

Completely ridiculous.

As noted, the South had seceded over slavery -- so it was an issue before the war even started.

I won't go into the rest of this silliness. The base premise is flawed. That is all that really matters.

But the Confederate flag is in no way shap or form a symbol of hatred and racism. Its heritage not hate.

Bullshit. I've explained at length more above and in other posts.

But I have to point out that the racist symbolism of the Confederate flag is not just about slavery.

After the Civil War, the Confederate flag was a symbol of segregation and white supremacy. As silly as all the attempts here to revise the history of the Civil War, no one has even addressed the over 100 year nasty history of the flag that followed the Civil War.

EDIT: I would also like to add, that in the History of South Carolina, the man that had more slaves than any other was a black man in Charleston.

Prove it. It does not change a damn thing, but I am curious to see you prove this.

Very good post, except for this paragraph. Slavery wasn't ended during the revolutionary war. There was supposed to be an end to slave trade in the early 1800's (not sure of the year). This wasn't followed very well though.

Pay attention everyone else...THE NORTH WAS FULL OF SLAVE OWNERS TOO. George Washington was one of the many founding fathers who had slaves.



Psst. George Washington was from Virginia. Viriginia was -- about 60 years after Washington's death -- part of the Confederacy. :eek:

Psst 2. That was many decades before the Civil War. Things changed. By 1860, 90% of the slaves in the US were in the South. :eek:

The Confederate flag has stood for little else but slavery, segregation, racism, and treason. [/QUOTE]

Little else, possibly. But it did also, for some Confederate soldiers, stand for States' Rights as an ideal in itself and against federalization.


Revisionist: The civil war wasn't about slavery it was about states' rights.

Q: What states' right?

R: The right to preserve slavery.

Q: :eek:


However CLOSE to exclusive that may be, you would meet less bull-headed resistance if you at least acknowledged that not EVERYONE in the south who favored states' rights necessarily did so because of the issue of slavery. Unless you can prove otherwise. You are generalizing, which weakens your rational argument, completely aside from the fact that you are essentially resorting to what many could perceive as an insult.


Completely ridiculous.

If you mean the business about the Emancipation Proclamation not accomplishing anything, I won't argue the point directly, but I will point out that had the South won the war the history books would probably agree. As such, the validity of the law depended on the outcome of the war.

If that wasn't what you meant, I apologize for interjecting there.


After the Civil War, the Confederate flag was a symbol of segregation and white supremacy. As silly as all the attempts here to revise the history of the Civil War, no one has even addressed the over 100 year nasty history of the flag that followed the Civil War.


Not entirely true, although the post that I couldn't finish because I got logged out is the only one I recall offhand that addressed it.

As a citizen of the southern half of America I am torn two ways. The first being this. I agree with the North's stance on the main ideology of freeing the slaves. But also the Confederate Flag is a flag that represented the war for freedom to form their own nation that my ancestors died for by the thousands. Now the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in the South. Not in the North. Blacks had to serve in the North in order for them to become free. Now I am ashamed of some aspects of my Southern heritage. Examples would be the KKK and other hate groups. The Birmingham Church bombing. Segregation and that general hate that was fostered on both sides. But it was preventable. Right after the Civil War the North left. They didn't stay and try to stabilize the region. So the same thing that happened in Germany during the Weimar Republic happened in the South. Extreme poverty breeds extreme prejudice. It's not a cut and dry issue. It's a doubled edged sword for almost all-Southeners. Go ahead and bash I won't stop you. But it's also partly your fault. You didn't try to prevent it. You didn't try to foster economic growth. You just let us fall back into the poverty we knew so well.

Meh. Whatever. I live in a state that's half-black. Kind of hard to be racist when many of your friends are a different color.

As a citizen of the southern half of America I am torn two ways. The first being this. I agree with the North's stance on the main ideology of freeing the slaves. But also the Confederate Flag is a flag that represented the war for freedom to form their own nation that my ancestors died for by the thousands. Now the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in the South. Not in the North. Blacks had to serve in the North in order for them to become free. Now I am ashamed of some aspects of my Southern heritage. Examples would be the KKK and other hate groups. The Birmingham Church bombing. Segregation and that general hate that was fostered on both sides. But it was preventable. Right after the Civil War the North left. They didn't stay and try to stabilize the region. So the same thing that happened in Germany during the Weimar Republic happened in the South. Extreme poverty breeds extreme prejudice. It's not a cut and dry issue. It's a doubled edged sword for almost all-Southeners. Go ahead and bash I won't stop you. But it's also partly your fault. You didn't try to prevent it. You didn't try to foster economic growth. You just let us fall back into the poverty we knew so well.

Well said :)

Despite it symbolism, I think it is the coolest flag after the British one.

As a citizen of the southern half of America I am torn two ways. The first being this. I agree with the North's stance on the main ideology of freeing the slaves. But also the Confederate Flag is a flag that represented the war for freedom to form their own nation that my ancestors died for by the thousands. Now the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in the South. Not in the North. Blacks had to serve in the North in order for them to become free. Now I am ashamed of some aspects of my Southern heritage. Examples would be the KKK and other hate groups. The Birmingham Church bombing. Segregation and that general hate that was fostered on both sides. But it was preventable. Right after the Civil War the North left. They didn't stay and try to stabilize the region. So the same thing that happened in Germany during the Weimar Republic happened in the South. Extreme poverty breeds extreme prejudice. It's not a cut and dry issue. It's a doubled edged sword for almost all-Southeners. Go ahead and bash I won't stop you. But it's also partly your fault. You didn't try to prevent it. You didn't try to foster economic growth. You just let us fall back into the poverty we knew so well.

Meh. Whatever. I live in a state that's half-black. Kind of hard to be racist when many of your friends are a different color.
You suffer from the double edged sword of inadequate information and inability to reason your way to clarity.

Congress passed the Second Confiscation Act, freeing the slaves of all in rebellion against the government, on July 17, 1862. The Emancipation Proclamation final draft was completed in a Presidential Cabinet meeting on September 22, 1862, two months later. Hardly what I would call an inordinate length of time.

I do, however, agree with your statements about the North's neglect, even oppression, of the South after the War. "Reconstruction" was a nightmare. My family still tell stories about that awful period. I suspect that had Lincoln lived the outcome of "Reconstruction" would have been considerably different.

The Confederate flag has stood for little else but slavery, segregation, racism, and treason.

Little else, possibly. But it did also, for some Confederate soldiers, stand for States' Rights as an ideal in itself and against federalization.

Quite possible.

It would be nice if I thought that was true of my Confederate ancestors.

I suspect many Confederate soldiers fought to protect their land, their family, and their communities. I doubt they were all -- or even mostly -- motivated by any ideological concerns.

However CLOSE to exclusive that may be, you would meet less bull-headed resistance if you at least acknowledged that not EVERYONE in the south who favored states' rights necessarily did so because of the issue of slavery. Unless you can prove otherwise. You are generalizing, which weakens your rational argument, completely aside from the fact that you are essentially resorting to what many could perceive as an insult.

The governments of the states themselves declared secession to be motivated by the desire to preserve slavery.

Does that mean everyone in the South loved slavery? No. Never said they did.

Did the government for which the Confederate flag stands stand for slavery? You betcha.

And, I'm sorry if the truth hurts.

I'm glad you recognize the revisionist attempts to de-link the Confederacy and slavery are bull-headed.

But I find it a bit ironic that you allege saying the Confederacy was about slavery is wrong because "many could perceive as an insult" -- when [I]they are defending a flag that is an insult to others.


If you mean the business about the Emancipation Proclamation not accomplishing anything, I won't argue the point directly, but I will point out that had the South won the war the history books would probably agree. As such, the validity of the law depended on the outcome of the war.

If that wasn't what you meant, I apologize for interjecting there.

There were several things about the paragraph in question that was ridiculous.

But I expressly pointed out the primary one: it was based on the faulty premise that slavery was not an issue between the North and the South until the Emancipation Proclamation made it an issue.

Not entirely true, although the post that I couldn't finish because I got logged out is the only one I recall offhand that addressed it.

I have not notice one refuting this connection. Although I made the connection since the beginning of this tread.

My psychic powers did not make me aware of your unposted post. That happens and it sucks.

You could repeat the argument -- if you have one.

Just out of curiousity, how would you feel if you were an African American and saw a flag that represented a nation that REFUSED to give you rights. When people fly the Confederate flag, they usually agree with what it stood for: a nation that "needed" slaves because the poor plantation owners couldn't afford servants. The slaves were treated HORRIBLY! The Confederate flag represents the Confederate ideology.
Why don't blacks get mad everytime they see the flag of an Arab nation? The Arabs had just as much if not more to do with the slave trade as any American southerner.

Now, concerning the charges of treason being hurled at the South. The South seceding (spelling?) during the Civil War is no different than the colonies removing themselves from the British Empire during the American Revolution. Both felt they were living under a government that no longer understood them nor cared about their welfare so they said "screwe thys" and left.
Is slavery wrong? Heck yes. Was every person that fought on the side of the Confederacy an evil slave-owner bent on enslaving the black population for ever? Heck no.
Lincoln, regardless of what you read, is not an abolitionist. He said, and I'm paraphrasing a little here, "If I could preserve the Union without the abolition of slavery, I would do so." The Emancipation Proclimation was not for the entire country. All it did was free the slaves in the South doing nothing for the slaves up North. It was only after the war that slavery was abolished.

*sigh* Just because Nazis and the KKK (which is considered a horrible joke down here) parade the flag around doesnt mean it stands for slavery or rascism(sp?).

*sigh* Just because Nazis and the KKK (which is considered a horrible joke down here) parade the flag around doesnt mean it stands for slavery or rascism(sp?).
This wouldn't be the first time the Nazi's have perverted a symbol. Read up on the history of the swastika some time. It was a corruption of a symbol for blessings found in Hindu, Mesopotamian and Native American cultures.

This wouldn't be the first time the Nazi's have perverted a symbol. Read up on the history of the swastika some time. It was a corruption of a symbol for blessings found in Hindu, Mesopotamian and Native American cultures.

Yes the Swastika (cant remember the Buddhist name) was (and still is) prominent in Temples, flags, etc. in Asian nations. Although I think the Nazis flipped it around and tilted it...

None of those flags was created as the symbol of a "nation" founded on the preservation of slavery.

Nor was the flag of these nations used as a rallying cry for segregation, lynchings, or the KKK.

The Confederate flag has stood for little else but slavery, segregation, racism, and treason.

Although Britian, France, Portugal, Egypt, and the United States have all had ugly episodes in their histories, the flags of those nations stand for much more than those ugly episodes.



Appeal to your AP US History teacher is (a) unverifiable and (b) unpersuasive.

Perhaps your AP US History teacher does not understand this particular issue very well.

Slavery in the North did not end with the Revolutionary War.

Slavery was always primarily in the South. It was by what the South was defined.

There was lots of racism throughout the US, but it is simply not true to say it was as bad in the North as it was in the South: would you rather be hated but free or hated and a slave?

Trivializing the horrors of slavery gets you nowhere.

And I return to this point, but did you cover segregation at all in your AP US History class. The Klu Klux Klan? The Citizens' Council? The Black Codes? Jim Crow laws? Emmitt Till? Bull Connor using dogs and firehouses against nonviolent protesting children? (I could go on and on and on ... There is at least 100 years of ugly racial history after the Civil War that I hope wasn't glossed over in your class.)



Revisionist: The civil war wasn't about slavery it was about states' rights.

Q: What states' right?

R: The right to preserve slavery.

Q: :eek:



Primarily because Lincoln was seen as a threat to slavery, he received little popular vote in the South. As I have documented several times, the Southern states then seceded -- declaring the preservation of slavery the primary reasons they were doing so.



Completely ridiculous.

As noted, the South had seceded over slavery -- so it was an issue before the war even started.

I won't go into the rest of this silliness. The base premise is flawed. That is all that really matters.



Bullshit. I've explained at length more above and in other posts.

But I have to point out that the racist symbolism of the Confederate flag is not just about slavery.

After the Civil War, the Confederate flag was a symbol of segregation and white supremacy. As silly as all the attempts here to revise the history of the Civil War, no one has even addressed the over 100 year nasty history of the flag that followed the Civil War.



Prove it. It does not change a damn thing, but I am curious to see you prove this.


Your attacks on my teacher are uncalled for. She is very educated. She has taught the course for more than 10 years, and every year, almost all of her students pass the AP Test, which I took yesterday. And yes, we covered everything up to Bill Clinton and his impeachment in 1999. And which KKK are you talking about? There were three seperate times where it started then died back out. The ORIGINAL KKK was pro south, anti immigration, and they hated the people in the north that took advantage of the south during reconstruction.

And I appologize for making a false statement. He didnt own the most slaves, he was "South Carolina's largest Negro slaveowner". His name was William Ellison. He lived in Charleston. More about him is explaing Here (http://www.dixieoutfitters.com/heritage/cw7.shtml) You may also want to read about different subject on the matter of the south Here (http://www.dixieoutfitters.com/heritage/history.shtml)

I'm tired of ppl putting down the confederate flag. All it was was the symbol of the south. nothing more. What are you're people's views

The swastika was a symbol of the sun, nothing more.

Your attacks on my teacher are uncalled for. She is very educated. She has taught the course for more than 10 years, and every year, almost all of her students pass the AP Test, which I took yesterday. And yes, we covered everything up to Bill Clinton and his impeachment in 1999. And which KKK are you talking about? There were three seperate times where it started then died back out. The ORIGINAL KKK was pro south, anti immigration, and they hated the people in the north that took advantage of the south during reconstruction.

And I appologize for making a false statement. He didnt own the most slaves, he was "South Carolina's largest Negro slaveowner". His name was William Ellison. He lived in Charleston. More about him is explaing Here (http://www.dixieoutfitters.com/heritage/cw7.shtml) You may also want to read about different subject on the matter of the south Here (http://www.dixieoutfitters.com/heritage/history.shtml)
My advanced placement biology teacher has her class getting 5s or 4s constantly, for the past 12 years that she's taught the course, but that doesn't make her a good biology teacher (she isn't).

Wat people need to under stand is that the main reason for the confederate states was the issue of the government type

Wat people need to under stand is that the main reason for the confederate states was the issue of the government type
Already tried and failed.

Just out of curiousity, how would you feel if you were an African American and saw a flag that represented a nation that REFUSED to give you rights. When people fly the Confederate flag, they usually agree with what it stood for: a nation that "needed" slaves because the poor plantation owners couldn't afford servants. The slaves were treated HORRIBLY! The Confederate flag represents the Confederate ideology.

How would you feel if you were a jew and you saw someone flying the swastika or something along those lines, I can tell you that as a jew I could care less. As a southerner south bashing pisses me off to no end.

I use to feel the same way until I realized that displaying it truly does make African-Americans feel badly, even if they refrain from saying so. Having been born and raised in the Southern US, I admit to a certain affection for things about the Old South, but I wouldn't fly the Confederate flag for love nor money.


I don't care about hurt feelings, I'm really pragmatic like that so why can't everyone else be the same way? If someone is offended by mien kampf should we make owning it illegal?

Not to an extent that it started a war.

Right, just a riot that killed more blacks in the civil war than the south did. In new york the draft riots killed and injured more black non-combatants than the south did throughout the war.

Have you ever heard of the Emancipation Proclamation of January 1, 1863?

You mean the one that only freed the slaves in the south?

It's just a flag, if they want to fly it I don't care.

i dont really see it different then the Nazi flag... afterall the nazi flag was just a symbol of nazi germany.. nothing more. Should we put it down ? the short answer is YES... those cultures reflect ideals and practices we today shun.. they reflect those cultures as symbols.. and as such reflect those ideals, wheather you care to admit it or not

Then should we ban the flag of the united arab emirates, or any other muslim nation, or israels flag, since there aren't many orthodox jews any more, or the flag of communist russia, or the cuban flag, or the flags of half of africa, a continent that treats black people ten times worse than the south ever did, or the chinese flag, or anything else that offends you, should we do that? Just ask Guy Montag for the answer to this question, he knows where that road leads.

Despite it symbolism, I think it is the coolest flag after the British one.

No. British flag is crap. Now Uganda: There's a flag with personality.

The South can fly the flag all they want, for all I care
I think a lot of us do.

I think a lot of us do.

So. What.

who cares, if people are bickering about it then so be it, you shouldn't be, it's a symble of the south and if you decounce that then you are retarded.

Dixie outfitters. Looks like an unbiased source to me.


A question. Why was the north so industrialized and the south so relyant on agriculture?

Rather, what made the south so much more attractive for farming, far more so then the north or the west?

Was it the slaves?

There is no such thing as an unbiased source, a truthful source yes, an unbiased one, no.

Me being racially mixed may have warped my mind in some way, but I don't like the confederate flag. A large portion of the disgusting racist acts committed in the south have been accompanied by the flag (as I have seen in photographic evidence and archive film footage). If they paraded around a flag with Scooby Doo on it, I might not like Scooby Doo.

That's not the confederate flag, it's the klan flag, if you're gonna hate something hate it after you do some research.

at one time.. i argued on the same side as many of you.. i thought it was a symbol of the south and thats all.. not a symbol of racism or anything bad like that.... but the problem is... what if we put up flags with the swastika on it... being jewish.. that wud kinda piss me off a little. If anything... i think the confederate flag should be taken off of federal buildings (and it is on quite a few in the south)... idk about on ppls private property.. b/c its 1) thir property and 2)freedom of speech(iguess)

at one time.. i argued on the same side as many of you.. i thought it was a symbol of the south and thats all.. not a symbol of racism or anything bad like that.... but the problem is... what if we put up flags with the swastika on it... being jewish.. that wud kinda piss me off a little. If anything... i think the confederate flag should be taken off of federal buildings (and it is on quite a few in the south)... idk about on ppls private property.. b/c its 1) thir property and 2)freedom of speech(iguess)

I'm jewish, I could care less about the swastika.

Let them fly the flag. It symbolizes the CSA more than anything.

Your attacks on my teacher are uncalled for. She is very educated. She has taught the course for more than 10 years, and every year, almost all of her students pass the AP Test, which I took yesterday.

I did not "attack" your teacher.

I noted that (a) we cannot verify either that she exists or that she said what you assert, (b) you were committing the fallacy of Appeal to Authority (argumentum ad verecundiam) (http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/aa.php), (c) however great a teacher she may or may not be she can be wrong, and (d) a high school history teacher is not a particularly persuasive source in and of herself.

You skipped over the substance of my points and raised a red herring.

And yes, we covered everything up to Bill Clinton and his impeachment in 1999.

Good. And if you were familiar with all the names I raised as well as the rest of the history of segregation and the Civil Rights Movement, then you already knew that simply arguing that the Civil War was not about slavery would not wash the stain from the Confederate flag(s).


And which KKK are you talking about? There were three seperate times where it started then died back out. The ORIGINAL KKK was pro south, anti immigration, and they hated the people in the north that took advantage of the south during reconstruction.

Depends somewhat on who you ask and what you mean. Regardless, all 3 incarnations were/are racist.

And I appologize for making a false statement. He didnt own the most slaves, he was "South Carolina's largest Negro slaveowner". His name was William Ellison. He lived in Charleston. More about him is explaing Here (http://www.dixieoutfitters.com/heritage/cw7.shtml) You may also want to read about different subject on the matter of the south Here (http://www.dixieoutfitters.com/heritage/history.shtml)

Thank you for the correction.

That some African-Americans owned slaves does not change anything said here.

And did you fail to notice the inherent bias of and misrepresentations in your sources? The slight of hand of comparing percentages of all whites in the US or the South to one statistic for the percentages of blacks in New Orleans, for example? (Not to mention flaws in those percentages themselves).

*sigh* Just because Nazis and the KKK (which is considered a horrible joke down here) parade the flag around doesnt mean it stands for slavery or rascism(sp?).

That the KKK has used the Confederate flag(s) as a symbol for decades upon decades is not necessarily sufficient to corrupt the symbol. It is evidence.

And the KKK is now considered a horrible -- but nasty and dangerous -- joke most everywhere. That was not only the case.

More importantly, the influence or not of the KKK is hardly the only or the primary reason why the Confederate flag(s) have negative -- particularly racist -- connotations.

Wat people need to under stand is that the main reason for the confederate states was the issue of the government type

Ridiculous.

Already proven false by the official statements of the Confederate states.

As a southerner south bashing pisses me off to no end.

I don't care about hurt feelings, I'm really pragmatic like that so why can't everyone else be the same way?

Notice the irony of the above 2 statements?


If someone is offended by mien kampf should we make owning it illegal?

Strawman & false dichotomy.

The Confederate flag is a symbol of racism, slavery, segregration, treason, etc.

But its private ownership and display is (and should be protected) freedom of expression.

[*snip*]

Anyway, you have every right as an individual to fly a symbol of racism, slavery, segregation, and treason -- if you so choose.

And I have every right to "put[] down" such symbol.

Welcome to the United States of America and the First Amendment.

EDIT: And before anyone gets all huffy: I was asked for my views and I gave them. You got the "nice" version.

Yes.

But, many years on, North flag combined with South flag = Racism, Segregation, Religious ignorance, Cultural ignorance, Ignorance to the right of sovreignty.....etc......;

Yes.

But, many years on, North flag combined with South flag = Racism, Segregation, Religious ignorance, Cultural ignorance, Ignorance to the right of sovreignty.....etc......;

What?

Would you please be more clear? I can guess where you are going, but I'd prefer not to.

What?

Would you please be more clear? I can guess where you are going, but I'd prefer not to.
You know, he or she is right in a sence.

That the KKK has used the Confederate flag(s) as a symbol for decades upon decades is not necessarily sufficient to corrupt the symbol. It is evidence.

And the KKK is now considered a horrible -- but nasty and dangerous -- joke most everywhere. That was not only the case.

More importantly, the influence or not of the KKK is hardly the only or the primary reason why the Confederate flag(s) have negative -- particularly racist -- connotations.

Sorry, since you're the expert on these matters I'll relegate myself to just reading what you post in the hope that it may enlighten me.

I think it is awesome!
It is Beuatiful and classy and ive got one!

Well its actualy similar to Iron Maidens The Trooper except its a Confederate Skeleton and it says The South Will Rise again!

Rawr fear that Yankee!

Really
The South PAcific will beat you this time!

I think its kind of cool how the 13 Stars were worked into it much better than the 7 of the early war when not everyone was in on it!

If Missisippi wants to fly it so be it!

Sorry, since you're the expert on these matters I'll relegate myself to just reading what you post in the hope that it may enlighten me.

I disagree with you. Get over it.

Was a symbol of the south.

I don't understand. Sure, you have a right to fly the flag of a failed country, whose economy depended on slavery

But... why? They lost. They won't be rising again. Get over it.


Man, I know so many people who'd kick the shit out of you right now.

I disagree with you. Get over it.

Impossible! All of these people in here disagree with you yet for some reason you see the need to make three posts in a row to tell them why they're supposedly wrong.

You suffer from the double edged sword of inadequate information and inability to reason your way to clarity.

Congress passed the Second Confiscation Act, freeing the slaves of all in rebellion against the government, on July 17, 1862. The Emancipation Proclamation final draft was completed in a Presidential Cabinet meeting on September 22, 1862, two months later. Hardly what I would call an inordinate length of time.

I do, however, agree with your statements about the North's neglect, even oppression, of the South after the War. "Reconstruction" was a nightmare. My family still tell stories about that awful period. I suspect that had Lincoln lived the outcome of "Reconstruction" would have been considerably different.
Thank you for clarifying that for me. Unfortunately my history studies don't always fall into the Civil War. So I have a general knowledge and was trying to use that. Once again thank you for clarifying that.

It is a person's right to fly any type of flag they want, as it is there right to burn any type of flag they want. However, the goverment should not support the flying of the confederate flag, much less flying it over a goverment building.

Impossible! All of these people in here disagree with you yet for some reason you see the need to make three posts in a row to tell them why they're supposedly wrong.

Responding to 3 different posts/arguments.

I can't help it if so many of you are wrong. ;)

No. The point is well-taken. Although there is nothing wrong with be a minority voice of dissent, I'll pause before posting again.

The main reason of the civil war was the disagree ment of the government type. the north wanted democracy and the south wanted a confederacy. That is what the flag stands for not slavery.

I suspect many Confederate soldiers fought to protect their land, their family, and their communities. I doubt they were all -- or even mostly -- motivated by any ideological concerns.


I think you should at least acknoweledge that the Union soldiers despised the blacks probably even more than their confederate enemies. I also recommend that you watch Glory, a great movie about the first black regiment, the 407, allowed to fight as a single unit of blacks under white officers who died with them. They fought bravely and did themselves proud, and eventually earnt the grudging respect of their white Union counterparts, respect always given to men who fight and die bravely, no matter what their colour or beliefs. But as you will see in this movie, most Union soldiers held the blacks in racial contempt, it was not a trait, held soley by citizens of the confederacy.
Another film, Gangs of New York, a touch overdone I admit, showed at the end of it the famous riots that happenned in the same city during the civil war, these riots went for nearly three days or so, and had to be put down by the Union Army. During it, hundreds of blacks were killed by the white rioters, Most of whom were just average citizens. So much for your 'free the slaves loving North. Pardon the pun, but things arent as black and white as you think they are, with the American Civil war.

I think you should at least acknoweledge that the Union soldiers despised the blacks probably even more than their confederate enemies. I also recommend that you watch Glory, a great movie about the first black regiment, the 407, allowed to fight as a single unit of blacks under white officers who died with them. They fought bravely and did themselves proud, and eventually earnt the grudging respect of their white Union counterparts, respect always given to men who fight and die bravely, no matter what their colour or beliefs. But as you will see in this movie, most Union soldiers held the blacks in racial contempt, it was not a trait, held soley by citizens of the confederacy.
Another film, Gangs of New York, a touch overdone I admit, showed at the end of it the famous riots that happenned in the same city during the civil war, these riots went for nearly three days or so, and had to be put down by the Union Army. During it, hundreds of blacks were killed by the white rioters, Most of whom were just average citizens. So much for your 'free the slaves loving North. Pardon the pun, but things arent as black and white as you think they are, with the American Civil war.
Hint:

Generally, movies aren't considered proper historical documentation.

In the last month of the Civil War, the Confederacy did start to recruit black soldiers out of desperation. So the CSA was willing to get rid of slavery in order to preserve it's independence.

By 1863 most slaves had stopped working and were just walking off the plantations after the Emancipation Proclamation anyway.


So, if they want to fly the Stars and Bars, I say let them. It's a lot cooler than the US flag, anyway

In the last month of the Civil War, the Confederacy did start to recruit black soldiers out of desperation. So the CSA was willing to get rid of slavery in order to preserve it's independence.


Do you know if they were paid but?

Hint:

Generally, movies aren't considered proper historical documentation.

Hint:

Although historical movies take some licence with main characters dialog, the events depicted in them are true.

Just out of curiousity, how would you feel if you were an African American and saw a flag that represented a nation that REFUSED to give you rights. When people fly the Confederate flag, they usually agree with what it stood for: a nation that "needed" slaves because the poor plantation owners couldn't afford servants. The slaves were treated HORRIBLY! The Confederate flag represents the Confederate ideology.
How would you feel if you were a female American and saw a flag that represented a nation that REFUSED to give you rights? Remember, the oh-so-righteous Union states didn't allow women to vote, nor did they grant women equal legal status to men.

The Confederate flag represents more than just oppression of minority races, just as the US flag represents more than the oppression of females.

The main reason of the civil war was the disagree ment of the government type. the north wanted democracy and the south wanted a confederacy. That is what the flag stands for not slavery.

Eh, close. The North wanted/is a federal government, the power is divided between the states and a central government. As a opposed to a confederacy where the states have the power or a Unitarist(?) government, I believe that's what it's called, where the central government has the power. Anyway, they are both democracies(?) none the less.

As for the flag, I'm all for it. I personally don't fly it or wear it but a lot of my friends do and they are just fine people. Seems like it's often used as a kind of rebellious symbol which is what much of the South sees it as.

The Confederacy! Rebellious and tough as nails!

I'm too tired to read the last three pages, so apologies if someone's already said this...

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE NAZI FLAG AND THE CONFEDERATE (BATTLE) FLAG

The Nazi Party was a political party. They were elected to the government of the already-extant country of Germany, whereupon they effectively dissolved the government apparatus, setting up Adolf Hitler as a dictator, and ran the country as they pleased. True, they were presumably placed in power by a majority vote, but I do not believe that all of their policies were known before they siezed the country. I'm almost certain they didn't campaign on 'We'll wipe out lots of people and start a war', because Germany was being watched by France and Britain at that point.

The Confederate States of America was a country formed by thirteen states which chose, presumably (no, I've never studied this. I'm making educated guesses) through a majority vote in each, to seceed from the Union. It made its policies clear from the start, however distasteful those policies may seem to us.

Conclusion: The Nazis were a relatively small group who siezed power. Their emblem, the swastika, reflects that. The Confederates were a large section of a country, the majority of whom shared a common mindset. There /is/ a difference there. To put it simply: The swastika represents a government, and an enforced regime. The CS battle flag represents a people, and an entire culture.

Whether you see that distinction as important is up to you.

How would you feel if you were a female American and saw a flag that represented a nation that REFUSED to give you rights? Remember, the oh-so-righteous Union states didn't allow women to vote, nor did they grant women equal legal status to men.
The Confederate flag represents more than just oppression of minority races, just as the US flag represents more than the oppression of females.

They also didnt press women into combat either back then, see it wasnt all bad for females was it?
You had your perks.

OK.

This is a much less coherent statement than I intended but I am too tired to fix it or to be comprehensive. I do wish to set some facts straight and eliminate some red herrings.

First, however, a quote (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4i3095.html) from William Scarborough, Professor of History
University of Southern Mississippi at Hattiesburg (emphasis added):

The election of Lincoln came at the end of a 25-year onslaught, increasing in crescendo against the South by outsiders, directed first against slavery, then against slaveholders, then against the South generally. And in every bit of correspondence that I have examined, there is resentment ... against the North because of what they perceive as an unfair attack upon their civilization.

The election of Lincoln certainly came as no surprise to many people. I mean, if you looked objectively at the lineup in 1860, it was fairly clear he was going to win. What it means, though, is that you have a sectional President, a person who did not receive a single popular vote in any slave state except Virginia, who is committed to blocking the expansion of slavery. And it is the general belief that he's committed to more than that -- erroneously, as we know. We know that Lincoln was not an abolitionist, at least not at first. But that was the general [view]. "The black Republican President", "the black Republican Party" -- that's the phraseology used in the correspondence and newspaper editorials and so on, of the time.

Southerners had compromised in 1850, when the first crisis occurred. And at that time they had said, "We're going to compromise this time, but this is it. We're not going to yield again if this onslaught against slavery continues." Well, it continued and culminated in the election of a sectional President in 1860. And that was the fact that brought on the Civil War. There's no doubt about that. Southerners don't like to admit today that slavery was the cause of secession, which led in turn to the Civil War. White southerners do not like to admit that. You go to Sons of Confederate Veterans meetings and so on, and they talk about states' rights and economic differences and all that. But that's nonsense. Every scintilla of evidence that can be adduced from the correspondence and the editorials, that's what the issue is: slavery. And that caused secession. That does not mean, however, that Confederate soldiers thought they were fighting for the defense of slavery. Only one white family in four in the South owned slaves; three-fourths of the white families owned no slaves. And the bulk of the Confederate Army is made up of these non-slaveholders. And they're fighting for home and family and country and honor and the same things that soldiers fought for from time immemorial and still fight for, not for slavery. But that's the cause of the war. That's what triggered secession. Secession triggered the war. No doubt about it.

1. The symbolism of the Confederate flag(s) does not end with the Civil War.

I've noted before that the Confederate flag has been a rallying point of racism and racist policies since the Civil War.

Although identified with the KKK and other racist organizations, the Confederate flag was primarily dormant as a symbol until the Civil Rights movement of the 1950s & 1960s. Georgia's state flag was altered in 1956 to include the "Stars & Bars" as a protest against the desegration ruling of Brown v. Board of Education. From 1865 to 1962, South Carolina did not fly the Confederate flag. It was resurrected admist the South's fight against desegregation. Granted this was an anniversary of the War -- sort of -- but that was not the primary motivation.

Many atrocities have been committed by those waving or wearing the Confederate flag(s). (The same is true of the US flag, but I'll come back to that.)

2. The primary ideal -- the central organizing principle -- of the Confederacy was racism and slavery.

It is not mere coincidence that all of the Confederate states were slave states and that only a handful of slave states failed to join the Confederacy.

A. The seceding states declared they were seceding to preseve slavery.

I have noted this before. It bears repeating. The Declarations of the Causes of Secession (http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html) identify the cause of the seceding states as slavery.

Not just the preservation of slavery or allowing slavery to die slowly. The primary complaints are the frustration of the desire to expand slavery into new territories and with the "failure" of free states to return and/or punish slaves.

Again, Mississippi's second paragraph is instructive (emphasis added):

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

B. The Constitution of the Confederate States of America (http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=654) is essentially identical to the US Constitution from that time with the telling additions protections and requirements of slavery. (The Constitution of the CSA continues the 3/5ths compromise as well.)

Article I, Sec. 9:

"(4) No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed."

Article IV, Sec. 2:

(I) The citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States; and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired.
...
(3) No slave or other person held to service or labor in any State or Territory of the Confederate States, under the laws thereof, escaping or lawfully carried into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor; but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such slave belongs,. or to whom such service or labor may be due.

Article IV, Sec. 3 (emphasis added):

(3) The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.

C. Confederate leaders identified the Confederacy with slavery and white supremacy.

Alexander H. Stephens of Georgia was the Vice-President of the Confederacy. The Constitution of the CSA was enacted on March 11, 1961. Ten days later Stephens gave a famous speech (http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=76) about the new Constitution and explaining "Conerstone" of the Confederacy.

Here are relevant and telling excerpts (emphasis added):

But not to be tedious in enumerating the numerous changes for the better, allow me to allude to one other —though last, not least. The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution—African slavery as it exists amongst us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the "storm came and the wind blew."

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery—subordination to the superior race—is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It has been so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well, that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day. The errors of the past generation still clung to many as late as twenty years ago. Those at the North, who still cling to these errors, with a zeal above knowledge, we justly denominate fanatics. All fanaticism springs from an aberration of the mind—from a defect in reasoning. It is a species of insanity. One of the most striking characteristics of insanity, in many instances, is forming correct conclusions from fancied or erroneous premises; so with the anti-slavery fanatics. Their conclusions are right if their premises were. They assume that the negro is equal, and hence conclude that he is entitled to equal privileges and rights with the white man. If their premises were correct, their conclusions would be logical and just—but their premise being wrong, their whole argument fails. I recollect once of having heard a gentleman from one of the northern States, of great power and ability, announce in the House of Representatives, with imposing effect, that we of the South would be compelled, ultimately, to yield upon this subject of slavery, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics, as it was in physics or mechanics. That the principle would ultimately prevail. That we, in maintaining slavery as it exists with us, were warring against a principle, a principle founded in nature, the principle of the equality of men. The reply I made to him was, that upon his own grounds, we should, ultimately, succeed, and that he and his associates, in this crusade against our institutions, would ultimately fail. The truth announced, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics as it was in physics and mechanics, I admitted; but told him that it was he, and those acting with him, who were warring against a principle. They were attempting to make things equal which the Creator had made unequal.

In the conflict thus far, success has been on our side, complete throughout the length and breadth of the Confederate States. It is upon this, as I have stated, our social fabric is firmly planted; and I cannot permit myself to doubt the ultimate success of a full recognition of this principle throughout the civilized and enlightened world.

As I have stated, the truth of this principle may be slow in development, as all truths are and ever have been, in the various branches of science. It was so with the principles announced by Galileo—it was so with Adam Smith and his principles of political economy. It was so with Harvey, and his theory of the circulation of the blood. It is stated that not a single one of the medical profession, living at the time of the announcement of the truths made by him, admitted them. Now, they are universally acknowledged. May we not, therefore, look with confidence to the ultimate universal acknowledgment of the truths upon which our system rests? It is the first government ever instituted upon the principles in strict conformity to nature, and the ordination of Providence, in furnishing the materials of human society. Many governments have been founded upon the principle of the subordination and serfdom of certain classes of the same race; such were and are in violation of the laws of nature. Our system commits no such violation of nature’s laws. With us, all of the white race, however high or low, rich or poor, are equal in the eye of the law. Not so with the negro. Subordination is his place. He, by nature, or by the curse against Canaan, is fitted for that condition which he occupies in our system. The architect, in the construction of buildings, lays the foundation with the proper material-the granite; then comes the brick or the marble. The substratum of our society is made of the material fitted by nature for it, and by experience we know that it is best, not only for the superior, but for the inferior race, that it should be so. It is, indeed, in conformity with the ordinance of the Creator. It is not for us to inquire into the wisdom of His ordinances, or to question them. For His own purposes, He has made one race to differ from another, as He has made "one star to differ from another star in glory." The great objects of humanity are best attained when there is conformity to His laws and decrees, in the formation of governments as well as in all things else. Our confederacy is founded upon principles in strict conformity with these laws. This stone which was rejected by the first builders "is become the chief of the corner"—the real "corner-stone"—in our new edifice. I have been asked, what of the future? It has been apprehended by some that we would have arrayed against us the civilized world. I care not who or how many they may be against us, when we stand upon the eternal principles of truth, if we are true to ourselves and the principles for which we contend, we are obliged to, and must triumph.

I was going to post more. I can if this proposition continues to be denied in the absence of evidence.

2. A simple syllogism:

A. The Confederate flag(s) symbolize the Confederacy.

B. The Confederacy was typified by and organized around racist slavery.

C. The Confederate flag(s) symbolize racist slavery.

The Confederate flag is the symbol of a failed and unworthy cause.

3. Red Herrings:

A. Lincoln was racist and was not a fire-breathing abolitionist. So?

B. Racism was ubiquitous in the United States at the time of the Civil War. North and South. Legal discrimination -- including segregation -- was the norm in the North. But slavery had been eliminated in the North by 1830. Hatred against blacks and white supremacy were common in both the North and the South at the time of the Civil War. But the racist institution of slavery is a whole category of evil separate and far worse than mere racism.

C. People like to insist the Confederate flag is not a symbol of racism, slavery, or segregation. OK .... what is it a symbol of? The Confederacy? That equals racism & slavery. Southern Heritage? Why? And what? What Southern heritage does the Confederate flag represent and how did it come to represent that and not its historic origins or uses.

D. Yes, other nations have done bad things. Other flags have stood over evils. Some people don't like those other flags either. But if you wish to make a coherent argument please identify what, how, and why the Stars & Stripes is equally identified with evil like slavery and segregation as the Confederate flag is.

I don't hate the South. I love it more than many other regions in the US. I have Southern ancestors and family. The bulk of my in-laws are from the South. I have Confederate ancestors -- including leaders of the Confederacy.

I do not begrudge anyone pride in their heritage. I do look on with dismay at those who would whitewash their history and not embrace critically their entire heritage.

I do not hate those that fly the flag. It some circumstances it is not only acceptable, but wholly appropriate -- such as at memorials to the Civil War dead.

Don't dishonor the over 600,000 Americans that died in the Civil War. Don't dishonor the tens of millions of African-Americans that died as a result of slavery. Don't dishonor those that were kiled during the battle for Civil Rights. Don't deliberate insult African-Americans and then blame them for reacting. Don't try to whitewash and distort a historic symbol simply to be a "rebel."

Attack away.

the tens of millions of African-Americans that died as a result of slavery. Attack away.

lmao

lmao

WTF?

I highly suggest you not go the route of denying the evils of American slavery and the Middle Passage.

And, BTW, I own a copy of Glory. It is a great film. I does nothing whatsoever to aid those that wish to glorify the Confederacy.

A word of advice: your new habit of quasi-griefing those that disagreed with you re discipline of children is unwise, uncalled for, and bordering upon actual griefing -- a violation of the rules.

[QUOTE=The Cat-Tribe]WTF?
I highly suggest you not go the route of denying the evils of American slavery and the Middle Passage.

I wasnt, :rolleyes: I was raising an eyebrow at your figure of tens of millions of American negros dead in the South from slavery, ones dying from natural causes, dont really count either. Were talking about worked and whipped to death etc
In a nutshell. I think you made that figure up off the top of your head.

And, BTW, I own a copy of Glory. It is a great film. I does nothing whatsoever to aid those that wish to glorify the Confederacy.

Well thats probably because its a movie about black soldiers mostly who fought for the Union.
Ive yet to see a movie that does glorify the confereracy, but lets not forget, no matter what ever reasons, men go to war, nothing can take away from personal bravery, or any bravery for that matter. That, is glory in itself.
And the Confederate army, as did the Wehrmacht, and any other army who fought for the wrong cause in historys eyes, had that in abundance.


A word of advice: your new habit of quasi-griefing those that disagreed with you re discipline of children is unwise, uncalled for, and bordering upon actual griefing -- a violation of the rules.

quasi griefing??
lmao, everyone cops that, even me.

I wasnt, :rolleyes: I was raising an eyebrow at your figure of tens of millions of American negros dead in the South from slavery, ones dying from natural causes, dont really count either. Were talking about worked and whipped to death etc
In a nutshell. I think you made that figure up off the top of your head.

In a nutshell, you are wrong. It is a rather conservative estimate, actually.

Some of us are not in the habit of making things up.

Well thats probably because its a movie about black soldiers mostly who fought for the Union.
Ive yet to see a movie that does glorify the confereracy, but lets not forget, no matter what ever reasons, men go to war, nothing can take away from personal bravery, or any bravery for that matter. That, is glory in itself.
And the Confederate army, as did the Wehrmacht, and any other army who fought for the wrong cause in historys eyes, had that in abundance.

Although I do wax as eloquent about lost and wrong causes, I have said essentially the same thing about Confederate soldiers. More than once.

Care to explain why you ignored that?

quasi griefing??
lmao, everyone cops that, even me.

I have no idea what you are trying to say. Perhaps you should try English and sentences.

And, for the record, I checked both the OED and Australian slang dictionaries for your use of "cops." Nothing helped make sense of your statement.

Regardless, I think you understand my point. I simply recommend you heed and follow it.

And, for the record, I checked both the OED and Australian slang dictionaries for your use of "cops." Nothing helped make sense of your statement.

Regardless, I think you understand my point. I simply recommend you heed and follow it.

Idiom:
cop a plea

To plead guilty to a lesser charge so as to avoid standing trial for a more serious charge.

Fairly sure that it is taken from there.

Idiom:
cop a plea

To plead guilty to a lesser charge so as to avoid standing trial for a more serious charge.

Fairly sure that it is taken from there.

So he meant that everyone is guilty of borderline griefing?

So he meant that everyone is guilty of borderline griefing?
Tries to say that. He's using it funny, like someone who has heard the phase used before but never looked it up.

[QUOTE=The Cat-Tribe]In a nutshell, you are wrong. It is a rather conservative estimate, actually.


Proof? Proof?


Although I do wax as eloquent about lost and wrong causes, I have said essentially the same thing about Confederate soldiers. More than once.
Care to explain why you ignored that?

I didnt, its a point we actually both agree on.

I have no idea what you are trying to say. Perhaps you should try English and sentences.
And, for the record, I checked both the OED and Australian slang dictionaries for your use of "cops." Nothing helped make sense of your statement.
Regardless, I think you understand my point. I simply recommend you heed and follow it.

Sheez its only one word, it means for the record 'gets', we have a funny way of speaking sometimes, I forget, you guys wouldnt understand it.
Cops probably comes from our dislike of authority, the police I guess.
Im surprised its not in the dictionary too, alot of people her say it now and then.
Eg: 'To cop that' or didnt he 'cop' it as in firstly To get that, and secondly didnt he get it, which means firstly, to be punished liked that, and secondly didnt he get some punsishment. Basically the word 'cop' in this sense is used in a punishment sense.

No!, the entire south wasn't for slavery. Some hard working folk did it(their work) on their own(either by choice or not being able to afford labor). When you have a WAR where your neighbors, family members and friends are getting killed.. what would you do?

There might be a few cases of southerners heading up north to fight for the other side. And if that's the case there must be some fleeing the north to fight for the south.

No!, the entire south wasn't for slavery. Some hard working folk did it(their work) on their own(either by choice or not being able to afford labor). When you have a WAR where your neighbors, family members and friends are getting killed.. what would you do?

There might be a few cases of southerners heading up north to fight for the other side. And if that's the case there must be some fleeing the north to fight for the south.

Asked and answered.

No one said the entire South or every Southern was for slavery. It has been recognized repeatedly that Confederate soldiers fought for many reasons and that the defense of slavery was not high among them.

But the Confederacy was organized around the principles of slavery and white supremacy. The Confederate flags, therefore, were and are symbols of slavery and white supremacy. They may have and do symbolize other things (some of them also objectionable and some of them noble), but they do symbolize those evils.

A flag is a flag. A big cotton(or silk) banner, nothing more. It's what the flag may or may not represent is what pisses some people off.

Yes, I understand that.

Because of the country we live in... today.. No, confederate flags shouldn't fly above state capitals, or any fed govn't territory.. I'd prefer they not be... I don't want to hear or see where law suits are taking place because the flags violate someones rights , or gave someone emotional trauma. If it continues on .. we won't be able to fly them period. At least now we still can fly them(on our own land regardless of what meaning the flyer holds behind them)... right?.. I certainly hope so.

Yes, I understand that.

Because of the country we live in... today.. No, confederate flags shouldn't fly above state capitals, or any fed govn't territory.. I'd prefer they not be... I don't want to hear or see where law suits are taking place because the flags violate someones rights , or gave someone emotional trauma.

Cool. Then we are agreed.

If it continues on .. we won't be able to fly them period. At least now we still can on our own land regardless of what meaning the flyer holds behind them... right?.. I certainly hope so.

No. This slippery slope argument won't fly.

There is a rather obvious distinction between the government flying a flag and an individual doing so. The latter is protected free speech.

I have been very clear that an individual has a right to fly whatever flag he or she chooses. But I do have a right to criticize the choice to fly a particular flag.

Asked and answered.

No one said the entire South or every Southern was for slavery. It has been recognized repeatedly that Confederate soldiers fought for many reasons and that the defense of slavery was not high among them.

But the Confederacy was organized around the principles of slavery and white supremacy. The Confederate flags, therefore, were and are symbols of slavery and white supremacy. They may have and do symbolize other things (some of them also objectionable and some of them noble), but they do symbolize those evils.


You understand this.. but Oh so many Do Not. The south is still labeld (by alot of northerns) as a racist, lynching, church burning, hillbilly, toothless, un-educated place.

Personally .. I don't know how those that feel this way come up with these ideas.. being that many of the great minds and talents came from the south.

We are ( for the most part) all the same people.. we came from Europe.

Just because some hauled ass.. landed on a "new" continent and moved north or south in the land doesn't make us THAT much different.

You northerners that think you all are so good and pure.. you either don't know your history, have been taught wrong without having a mind of your own to seek the truth, or haven't came face to face with another race of people that know their history and are upfront about it to tell you like it is.

You understand this.. but Oh so many Do Not. The south is still labeld (by alot of northerns) as a racist, lynching, church burning, hillbilly, toothless, un-educated place.

Personally .. I don't know how those that feel this way come up with these ideas.. being that many of the great minds and talents came from the south.

We are ( for the most part) are all the same people.. we came from Europe.

Just because some hauled ass.. landed on a "new" continent and moved north or south in the land doesn't make us THAT much different.

You northerners that think you all are so good and pure.. you either don't know your history, have been taught wrong without having a mind of your own to seek the truth, or haven't came face to face with another race of people that know their history and are upfront about it to tell you you like it is.

Are you trying to sound like a stereotypical racist? Perhaps you should choose your words more carefully.

Many of us did not come from Europe. And many of us were here to begin with. And Southerners are not "another race."

You are stereotyping Northerners almost as badly as Southerners are stereotyped. (Note: I said "almost.)

Neither the South nor the North has a monopoly on goodness, purity, or truth. (Nor does either have a monopoly on evil or racism.)

But you aren't putting the the best face on your cause.

Cool. Then we are agreed.



No. This slippery slope argument won't fly.

There is a rather obvious distinction between the government flying a flag and an individual doing so. The latter is protected free speech.

I have been very clear that an individual has a right to fly whatever flag he or she chooses. But I do have a right to criticize the choice to fly a particular flag.


So.. by law.. If I fly a flag or whatever else that offends you.. you have a right to take me to court and keep me from flying my flag?

No violence.. verbal etc. abuse .. just flying it.

Are you trying to sound like a stereotypical racist? Perhaps you should choose your words more carefully.

Many of us did not come from Europe. And many of us were here to begin with. And Southerners are not "another race."

You are stereotyping Northerners almost as badly as Southerners are stereotyped. (Note: I said "almost.)

Neither the South nor the North has a monopoly on goodness, purity, or truth. (Nor does either have a monopoly on evil or racism.)

But you aren't putting the the best face on your cause.


No. I am not a racist. Choosing my words more carefully? For whom? I do not have racism in my heart so therefore it cannot come out on paper. If it sounded that way .. I can apologize. It wasn't the intent.

I know many of us came from other places than Europe. But we were not native to here. Native Americans were native to here. That's what I was meaning.

I never stated the southener was another race. I amplified that southerners and northeners are the same .. really.



As for stereotyping.. yeah the "almost comes into play there.

Never said that either side was of good or pure. Human nature itself dictates this. I was specifically talking of the south being put down by the north.

Are you trying to sound like a stereotypical racist? Perhaps you should choose your words more carefully.

Many of us did not come from Europe. And many of us were here to begin with. And Southerners are not "another race."

You are stereotyping Northerners almost as badly as Southerners are stereotyped. (Note: I said "almost.)

Neither the South nor the North has a monopoly on goodness, purity, or truth. (Nor does either have a monopoly on evil or racism.)

But you aren't putting the the best face on your cause.


What I meant by "another race of people" was.. black.. native american.. etc. someone that can call them on them claiming they are not racist. I did not mean the southener.

So.. by law.. If I fly a flag or whatever else that offends you.. you have a right to take me to court and keep me from flying my flag?

No violence.. verbal etc. abuse .. just flying it.

No. That is not eve close to what I said. It is the opposite.

I can exercise my right to free expression as well and criticize you.

I cannot sue you (at least not successfully and not without serious risk of getting penalized for filing a frivilous suit).

BTW, to be clear about the other exchange of posts: I did not say you were a racist. I don't think you are. I did say you used some rather questionable wording for your views. No need to apologize. But your words can have implications you did not intend.

What I meant by "another race of people" was.. black.. native american.. etc. someone that can call them on them claiming they are not racist. I did not mean the southener.


"Them" = Whites or anyone in political power in America from the north. We southeners have been persecuted and dealt with it much more than the notherners because of wrongful history teaching in schools and because the southern schools, towns and neighborhoods are more integrated than the north.

No. That is not eve close to what I said. It is the opposite.

I can exercise my right to free expression as well and criticize you.

I cannot sue you (at least not successfully and not without serious risk of getting penalized for filing a frivilous suit).

BTW, to be clear about the other exchange of posts: I did not say you were a racist. I don't think you are. I did say you used some rather questionable wording for your views. No need to apologize. But your words can have implications you did not intend.


I didn't say what I did to rebut you. I just chose to make it clear that I wasn't.

"Them" = Whites or anyone in political power in America from the north. We southeners have been persecuted and dealt with it much more than the notherners because of wrongful history teaching in schools and because the southern schools, towns and neighborhoods are more integrated than the north.

Gotcha. As I said, you were guilty of no more than using what (imao) was sloppy language that tended to give a misimpression.

At the risk of overgeneralizing, in my experience whites in the New South are often more sensitive to racism and more willing to face up to it than whites in the North -- precisely for the reasons that you put forth.

I do hope that by wrongful history teaching you mean the tendency to whitewash the past in general (e.g., things are not taught about various ugly incidents and about segregation and racism in the North) -- not so much that things taught about the South are untrue but that they are comparatively unfair. I would definitely agree.

EDIT: I hope we are clear. Whether we agree 100%, I believe I understood what you meant and that it was not meant to be racist. I already tend to overdominate (numerically, I mean) this thread, so I don't want to hijack it further.

Never thought of you as hijacking anything. I appreciate your responses.

As for the last post. Nope I didn't mean the "whitewashing" of acts. In my experience in the school system ..all I was taught in American History , dealing with the Civil War.. was that the south was blatantly racist and that was all the war as about was slavery.

Question. Has anyone ever even bothered reading the confederate constitution?

Question. Has anyone ever even bothered reading the confederate constitution?

Yep. I provided a link above and quoted from it.

Where's your shame man? The Confederate battle flag stopped being about Southern Pride and started being about racism when it became a symbol for the KKK and George Wallace for president. If you guys really care about your heritage and don't just hate black people, get a new one. People ruined the Confederate battle flag before most of us were born.

*I know the Civil War wasn't just about slavery, both my parents are white and from the South, so I'm not some ignorant yankee (well, not completely.)

I'm tired of ppl putting down the confederate flag. All it was was the symbol of the south. nothing more. What are you're people's views


I see it as the losing side's flag...nothing more. What toasts my bread is when people fly flags from other countries. What's the point in that? If represents your pride in that country - go to that country. As for the confederate flag...well, it doesn't represent any country...just the losing side.

Where's your shame man? The Confederate battle flag stopped being about Southern Pride and started being about racism when it became a symbol for the KKK and George Wallace for president. If you guys really care about your heritage and don't just hate black people, get a new one. People ruined the Confederate battle flag before most of us were born.

*I know the Civil War wasn't just about slavery, both my parents are white and from the South, so I'm not some ignorant yankee (well, not completely.)


Don't you know.. if I could.. I would kick there ass outta here? I Have Never Agreed or Liked thr freakin KKK carrying the entire southern states flag. I personally think they should be sued for degrading it. I know what you will say now.. "It was/is still a symbol of degredation". Would it had been as much so.. if the KKK hadn't marched around with it?

Bah! KKK.. pussy's. Let them burn a freakin cross on my lawn.. isn't like they don't have reason to. They had many reasons ( or so by their tolerances) .. they f***ing knew better.

Don't you know.. if I could.. I would kick there ass outta here? I Have Never Agreed or Liked thr freakin KKK carrying the entire southern states flag. I personally think they should be sued for degrading it. I know what you will say now.. "It was/is still a symbol of degredation". Would it had been as much so.. if the KKK hadn't marched around with it?

Bah! KKK.. pussy's. Let them burn a freakin cross on my lawn.. isn't like they don't have reason to. They had many reasons ( or so by their tolerances) .. they f***ing knew better.

You missed the point there. I'm saying the KKK hijacked your precious symbol 40 years ago. The swastika used to be a common Hindu symbol, but you don't see a lot of swastikas around in India any more. Saying that it used to be a Hindu symbol isn't slandering Hindus or saying they're Nazis; that's just where Hitler got the symbol. Same with the KKK and the Confederate battle flag. It wasn't originally a symbol of racism any more than the American flag is, but the way people used it in the 1960s poisoned in many people's minds. When people who aren't white and from the South see that flag, they think of cross burnings and dead Civil Rights Activists. If you don't want to be associated with the people who did these things, fly the Stars and Bars, or the Bonny Blue Flag to represent your Southern Heritage.

You missed the point there. I'm saying the KKK hijacked your precious symbol 40 years ago. The swastika used to be a common Hindu symbol, but you don't see a lot of swastikas around in India any more. Saying that it used to be a Hindu symbol isn't slandering Hindus or saying they're Nazis; that's just where Hitler got the symbol. Same with the KKK and the Confederate battle flag. It wasn't originally a symbol of racism any more than the American flag is, but the way people used it in the 1960s poisoned in many people's minds. When people who aren't white and from the South see that flag, they think of cross burnings and dead Civil Rights Activists. If you don't want to be associated with the people who did these things, fly the Stars and Bars, or the Bonny Blue Flag to represent your Southern Heritage.


I understand your point. Yes the flag was tainted by f***ing idiots. Some will say it was tainted from the start. But what I love about the south isn't connected to neither hate nor the KKK.. what I love about the south has blacks in it. Their churches .. the faith they have, the music they have created, the love they give, respect they have for their family.. I appreciate that.. no I don't like how they got here.. neither do they .. I'd suppose. But the south has a way about it. No one Not from here can understand . The south I love is ... respect for one another, help for one another, the appreciation and acknowledgement of each other and the environments we're all brought up in.

Now.. what does what I say connect to? The lower end of the spectrum.. the lower class (MONEY). Maybe I'm just favorable of the southern lower class of folk. Down to earth, the appreciative for what they have, rather than the bitching about what they don't have .. type ppl.

Should I be frowned upon for flying my southern flag based on what I look at it as being?

That doesn't really matter. I am aware of what most think it of being.. That's why I don't have the symbol; on my automoblie... how long would it take to explain to someone who has an instant feeling of hate towards it what I just posted. But.. on my own land.. I should be able to wave the flag high and look up at it and feel what I do.. as long as I don't impose on anyone else.

I was hoping for someone to respond to my last posts. O well..

Should I be frowned upon for flying my southern flag based on what I look at it as being?

That doesn't really matter. I am aware of what most think it of being.. That's why I don't have the symbol; on my automoblie... how long would it take to explain to someone who has an instant feeling of hate towards it what I just posted. But.. on my own land.. I should be able to wave the flag high and look up at it and feel what I do.. as long as I don't impose on anyone else.

You have the right to wave the flag and believe whatever you want about it.

And others have the right to denouce you for it.

That is called freedom of expression. It is a two-way street.

The swastika was the symbol of Germany. Flying the stars and bars is just flat indefensible, and I speak as a native Texan. There's just no goddamned excuse.

Good, Good.

Just while I'm not prohibited.. I'm ok.

But I have a feeling that isn't too far off.

That's another subject.

The confederate flag is the symbol and banner of a failed rebellion. In any other country, any other time in the world, anyone found flying such a thing would be shot. In the United States, our freedom of speech, such as it is, gives anyone the right to fly it. The same holds true if anyone wants to fly a nazi swastika flag, a rainbow flag, an Israeli flag, or an "I (love|hate} Rush Limbaugh" flag.

As a black person I think you have as much right to fly the confederate flag as I do to tattoo a swaztika to my forehead, if I was so inclined.

The confederate flag is the symbol and banner of a failed rebellion. In any other country, any other time in the world, anyone found flying such a thing would be shot. In the United States, our freedom of speech, such as it is, gives anyone the right to fly it. The same holds true if anyone wants to fly a nazi swastika flag, a rainbow flag, an Israeli flag, or an "I (love|hate} Rush Limbaugh" flag.

a "rainbow flag"?

As a black person I think you have as much right to fly the confederate flag as I do to tattoo a swaztika to my forehead, if I was so inclined.

I respect your opinion. As Long as it's on My property it should be ok tho.

-Not gonna go into a white dude that was in a black neighborhood flying a rebel flag" - That should be just common sense. >>Right shouldn't be taken away tho. Should the attacks on him be political? Hmmm.. I have seen such an instance. The guy never bothered anyone.. he was jumped for having that flag out seeable on his property. Not all the black youth jumped him, some shrugged it off. Was it right to jump him on count of his flag? NO!.


Edit:
- the Not.

What's been lost in history is that the "Stars and Bars" flag which is today held to be the flag of the Confederate States of America was not that at all. It was the flag of General Lee's Army of North Virginia, and, unfortunately, looking it up in most sources will show no mention of this, as the fact has been skewed and lost in time.