NationStates Jolt Archive

Today another sad but expected inncident occurred in my city, as a result of badly bought up, spoilt rotten obnoxious kids. A bus driver absolutely lost the plot and instead of dropping the kids off home drove them all to the bus depo instead and left them their, apparrently he could no longer put up with their crap anymore. An inspector also on the bus was laughed at when he asked the kids to behave. No respect for authority, no manners. This is a result of a number of things, Feminism especially has absolutely ruined kids in numerous ways, the removal by them of the Father the best provider of discipline, and in my view the most level headed( sorry but most women are shocking at it)
has been removed from the childs life. The kid growing up today thinks he/she can virtually get away with any bad behaviour because of this lack of particularly fatherly discipline.
The Bus driver is under investigation by the police, because these kids rang up their parents on their mobiles, some of them in tears, saying the busdriver was kidnapping them.
The simple truth was this driver had just had enough.
Will the generation being currently bought up so terribly by parents, who had been bought up by their parents under the spell of Dr. Spock, and how you can bring up kids with out physically disciplining them, be even able to start familys themselves? I cant see it. What can the average western kid today possibly offer their own kids in ten fifteen years time, except what they have learnt- scream like a brat and it will be given to me.

Ironically Dr. Spock told his own family in latter years, that all his theorys on child rearing he so espoused as gospel, he now considered utter rubbish, and the world best seller that made him a household name, would have been better used to smack the childs bum with.

Today another sad but expected inncident occurred in my city, as a result of badly bought up, spoilt rotten obnoxious kids. A bus driver absolutely lost the plot and instead of dropping the kids off home drove them all to the bus depo instead and left them their, apparrently he could no longer put up with their crap anymore. An inspector also on the bus was laughed at when he asked the kids to behave. No respect for authority, no manners. This is a result of a number of things, Feminism especially has absolutely ruined kids in numerous ways, the removal by them of the Father the best provider of discipline, and in my view the most level headed( sorry but most women are shocking at it)
has been removed from the childs life. The kid growing up today thinks he/she can virtually get away with any bad behaviour because of this lack of particularly fatherly discipline.
The Bus driver is under investigation by the police, because these kids rang up their parents on their mobiles, some of them in tears, saying the busdriver was kidnapping them.
The simple truth was this driver had just had enough.
Will the generation being currently bought up so terribly by parents, who had been bought up by their parents under the spell of Dr. Spock, and how you can bring up kids with out physically disciplining them, be even able to start familys themselves? I cant see it. What can the average western kid today possibly offer their own kids in ten fifteen years time, except what they have learnt- scream like a brat and it will be given to me.

Ironically Dr. Spock told his own family in latter years, that all his theorys on child rearing he so espoused as gospel, he now considered utter rubbish, and the world best seller that made him a household name, would have been better used to smack the childs bum with.

Coming from you, I already knew this was going to be a really wacked post, but I just stopped reading after this.

You strike me as an ill-tempered Mutated Sea Bass. :(

hey. buddy. calm down. live long and prosper. (sorry. someone had to do it.)

Coming from you, I already knew this was going to be a really wacked post, but I just stopped reading after this.

Had to get personal didnt you, if you dont like it, then just dont answer.

Also if you cant see the negative effect the feminist movement has had apon familys, then your deliberately turning a blind eye to it.
If you think I have it in for feminists, then you would be right.

hey. buddy. calm down. live long and prosper. (sorry. someone had to do it.)

I AM CALM!!!

No seriously, this is an important issue to me, I dont no how old you are, your probably a kid, and therefore completely against me on this, but if you ever think about having kids, and you think its fine for them to have no manners, then dont have kids.

I AM CALM!!!

No seriously, this is an important issue to me, I dont no how olds you are, your probably a kid, and therefore completely against me on this, but if you ever think about having kids, and you think its fine for them to have no manners, then dont have kids.
i'm almost 20, i don't know if you consider that to be still a child, i know some who do. i mostly just don't feel like debating this with you, and felt like throwing in the obligatory vulcan joke.

Ironically Dr. Spock told his own family in latter years, that all his theorys on child rearing he so espoused as gospel, he now considered utter rubbish, and the world best seller that made him a household name, would have been better used to smack the childs bum with.

He also died bankrupt.

He also died bankrupt.

Sounds like perfect planning then. :)

Here Here!

Sounds like perfect planning then. :)

Well apart from the decade of the incurable degenerative diesease, yes. I agree.

There is nothing wrong with an old fashioned smacked bottom. And I should know, I ended up helping the US stage the Grenada invasion.

[QUOTE=New Sancrosanctia]i'm almost 20, i don't know if you consider that to be still a child, i know some who do.
Uh no, I consider childhood to be over by the age of 12, then you are a teen ager to 17, then your an adult.


i mostly just don't feel like debating this with you, and felt like throwing in the obligatory vulcan joke.

You dont have to debate.

Dr. Spock..... NO!

Mr. Spock..... YES!

Control your children with the power of vulcan logic insted of resulting to human emotions.

Logic says that physical disciplie is of limited effectiveness and should only be used immediatly and sparingly if at all.
If used in the wrong place it can make an even worse scene.
If used used more than a few minutes after the infraction the child wouldn't understand why it was being done.
If used too long or too often the child will eventually figure out tha tit works both ways.

He also died bankrupt.

What has that got to do with it?

You dont have to debate.
i know. i was just explaining myself. i imagine i'll stop posting on this thread.......................................now.

[QUOTE=Karas]Dr. Spock..... NO!
Mr. Spock..... YES!
Control your children with the power of vulcan logic insted of resulting to human emotions.

I see, in other words bore the living crap out of them with cold blooded lectures on what they did wrong for hour after hour, give me a smack anyday.


Logic says that physical disciplie is of limited effectiveness and should only be used immediatly and sparingly if at all.

Used immediately, yes in some cases if parent is on the scene, other times afterwards, Im talking about toddlers from the age of three upwards here, not babies OK.

Sparingly, at first yes, but as the kid gets older, more force is required, like the kid should know better by now.



If used in the wrong place it can make an even worse scene.

Sounds like your saying in public, wait till you get home scenario, wouldnt bother me, if a stranger wants to butt in, they will get more than a smack too.


If used used more than a few minutes after the infraction the child wouldn't understand why it was being done.

If your kid was a retard, yes.
Kids are alot more intelligent than adults give them credit for, they know when therve done wrong, but only if you instill discipline and respect from an early age.


If used too long or too often the child will eventually figure out tha tit works both ways.

Im not saying go beat the crap out of them!

You strike me as an ill-tempered Mutated Sea Bass. :(

Only when prodded, if left alone Im quite placid.

i know. i was just explaining myself. i imagine i'll stop posting on this thread.......................................now.

Good, who cares :rolleyes:

Good, who cares :rolleyes:
ok, i lied.
didn't you just harrass someone for personal attacks? flamebait much?

Hmm.... Mutatent sea bass.... yum....

[QUOTE]

I see, in other words bore the living crap out of them with cold blooded lectures on what they did wrong for hour after hour, give me a smack anyday.




Used immediately, yes in some cases if parent is on the scene, other times afterwards, Im talking about toddlers from the age of three upwards here, not babies OK.

Sparingly, at first yes, but as the kid gets older, more force is required, like the kid should know better by now.





Sounds like your saying in public, wait till you get home scenario, wouldnt bother me, if a stranger wants to butt in, they will get more than a smack too.




If your kid was a retard, yes.
Kids are alot more intelligent than adults give them credit for, they know when therve done wrong, but only if you instill discipline and respect from an early age.




Im not saying go beat the crap out of them!


I probably should't post at whatever this time of the morning is because I tend to mix my points together in an unintelligable way when I'm tired.

When I'm saying that waiting after waiting a few minutes the physical discipline becomes emotionally disasociated from the act being punished. While the child way logically understand the reason for the spanking it won't have any long term impact.
Its a basic rule of of training that reinforcement should be given as soon after the desired act as possible. Basic Pavlov. If you feed a dog a minute after a bell rings every time it rings then the Dog will salivate at the sound of the bell. On the other hand, if you wait an hour the sound of the bell will be meaningless to the dog.

What I meant by too log was that there comes an age when a child understands that he or she can fight back. When that age comes then physical discipline is counterproductive.

The most important thing for children is consistancy. it isn't a lack of discipline that is their problem so much as a lack of consistant discipline. If you spank then spank consistantly and predictably. If you use time outs then use time outs consistantly and predictably. It is predictable consequences that they need, nothing more and nothing less.

I may have missed something here but why has feminism meant that kids have less of a fatherly influence?

If your kid was a retard, yes.
Kids are alot more intelligent than adults give them credit for, they know when therve done wrong, but only if you instill discipline and respect from an early age.

So, you say that kids are more intelligent than Karas gives them credit for...yet you think that the only form of discipline they really understand is spanking?

Whenever I hear rants about the state of youth today, I'm always reminded by the following two quotes:
"What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?"

"Our youth now loves luxuries. They have bad manners, contempt for authority. They show disrespect for elders and they love to chatter instead of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants, of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up their food, and tyrannize their teachers"

The former quote is by Plato, the latter by Socrates.

There's also this one:
"We live in a decaying age. Young people no longer respect their parents. They are rude and impatient. They frequently inhabit taverns and have no self control." -Inscription, 6000 year-old Egyptian tomb. But this one may be an urban legend, as I can't find a source to verify it.


I'll just finish with this lovely little poem (don't know who wrote it sorry. Maybe someone can help me out here!):
My grandad, viewing Earth's worn cogs,
said things were going to the dogs;
His grandad in the Flemish bogs
said things were going to the dogs;
His grandad in his old skin togs
said things were going to the dogs;
There's one thing that I have to state--
The dogs have had a good long wait!

So... correct me if I'm wrong here. You think feminism is bad for a society? Therefore countries without feminism should be good? So, the first country to give women the vote = New Zealand. A country that doesn't give women the vote = Saudi Arabia. Hmmm... Which do you think is the better country to live in?

Or we can do a comparison within a country. A country that didn't have feminism 70 years ago = Nazi Germany. A country that now has feminism = The Federal Republic of Germany. Now it's possible for you to disagree with me on this, but I think both New Zealand and Germany today are better countries to live in than Saudi Arabia or Nazi Germany. Now I admit that lots of Saudis and one or two Nazis will think I'm just crazy, but that's my personal opinion.

Now some people may protest that these aren't valid comparisons, but I'm not sure what feminism has to do with disipline and naughty kids on a bus, so what the hey?

Feminist movement ruined family? Does their mommy scream to their daddy "Do not dare to beat them because I'm a woman!"?I can't follow your logic. I would guess this society brigns them to act like,don't beat your children(and I would hope that no one mix this with abuse), give them a little break time and little pill and little disorder on top of it and little bs from those mad who-know-it-all-Dr.Phillys. Just let them watch TV and all be perfect and maybe some more sugar when they are under 8.

Hmm.

What do you believe the effect of absent fathers is on children's uprearings?

How about abusive parents?

How about violent parents whose belief is to offer a beat-down to anyone who disagrees with them?

Perhaps parents who have no manners themselves and cannot conduct themselves in a mature, civilized manner?

What about parents who must blame their own failings on some outside group they can then demonize?

ok, i lied.
didn't you just harrass someone for personal attacks? flamebait much?

Harrass someone? You mean request someone not to make personal attacks... is that what you meant? Unless your saying I asked them in a rude beligerant manner not to make personal attacks, funny that... because I believe I asked them very politely to quit it, but you say I harrassed them, jumping the gun arent we?

As for myself saying 'who cares if you post here', well why would you care, I mean you have made it pretty clear yourself that you distain to comment on this topic.

Hmm.... Mutatent sea bass.... yum....

:rolleyes: innane.

Whenever I hear rants about the state of youth today, I'm always reminded by the following two quotes:
"What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?"

"Our youth now loves luxuries. They have bad manners, contempt for authority. They show disrespect for elders and they love to chatter instead of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants, of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up their food, and tyrannize their teachers"

The former quote is by Plato, the latter by Socrates.

There's also this one:
"We live in a decaying age. Young people no longer respect their parents. They are rude and impatient. They frequently inhabit taverns and have no self control." -Inscription, 6000 year-old Egyptian tomb. But this one may be an urban legend, as I can't find a source to verify it.


I'll just finish with this lovely little poem (don't know who wrote it sorry. Maybe someone can help me out here!):
My grandad, viewing Earth's worn cogs,
said things were going to the dogs;
His grandad in the Flemish bogs
said things were going to the dogs;
His grandad in his old skin togs
said things were going to the dogs;
There's one thing that I have to state--
The dogs have had a good long wait!


I prefer:

Well, either you're closing your eyes
To a situation you do now wish to acknowledge
Or you are not aware of the caliber of disaster indicated
By the presence of a pool table in your community.
Ya got trouble, my friend, right here,
I say, trouble right here in River City.
Why sure I'm a billiard player,
Certainly mighty proud I say
I'm always mighty proud to say it.
I consider that the hours I spend
With a cue in my hand are golden.
Help you cultivate horse sense
And a cool head and a keen eye.
Never take and try to give
An iron-clad leave to yourself
From a three-reail billiard shot?
But just as I say,
It takes judgement, brains, and maturity to score
In a balkline game,
I say that any boob kin take
And shove a ball in a pocket.
And they call that sloth.
The first big step on the road
To the depths of deg-ra-Day--
I say, first, medicinal wine from a teaspoon,
Then beer from a bottle.
An' the next thing ya know,
Your son is playin' for money
In a pinch-back suit.
And list'nin to some big out-a-town Jasper
Hearin' him tell about horse-race gamblin'.
Not a wholesome trottin' race, no!
But a race where they set down right on the horse!
Like to see some stuck-up jockey'boy
Sittin' on Dan Patch? Make your blood boil?
Well, I should say.
Friends, lemme tell you what I mean.
Ya got one, two, three, four, five, six pockets in a table.
Pockets that mark the diff'rence
Between a gentlemen and a bum,
With a capital "B,"
And that rhymes with "P" and that stands for pool!
And all week long your River City
Youth'll be frittern away,
I say your young men'll be frittern!
Frittern away their noontime, suppertime, choretime too!
Get the ball in the pocket,
Never mind gittin' Dandelions pulled
Or the screen door patched or the beefsteak pounded.
Never mind pumpin' any water
'Til your parents are caught with the Cistern empty
On a Saturday night and that's trouble,
Oh, yes we got lots and lots a' trouble.
I'm thinkin' of the kids in the knickerbockers,
Shirt-tail young ones, peekin' in the pool
Hall window after school, look, folks!
Right here in River City.
Trouble with a capital "T"
And that rhymes with "P" and that stands for pool!
Now, I know all you folks are the right kinda parents.
I'm gonna be perfectly frank.
Would ya like to know what kinda conversation goes
On while they're loafin' around that Hall?
They're tryin' out Bevo, tryin' out cubebs,
Tryin' out Tailor Mades like Cigarette Feends!
And braggin' all about
How they're gonna cover up a tell-tale breath with Sen-Sen.
One fine night, they leave the pool hall,
Headin' for the dance at the Arm'ry!
Libertine men and Scarlet women!
And Rag-time, shameless music
That'll grab your son and your daughter
With the arms of a jungle animal instink!
Mass-staria!
Friends, the idle brain is the devil's playground!

Mothers of River City!
Heed the warning before it's too late!
Watch for the tell-tale sign of corruption!
The moment your son leaves the house,
Does he rebuckle his knickerbockers below the knee?
Is there a nicotine stain on his index finger?
A dime novel hidden in the corn crib?
Is he starting to memorize jokes from Capt.
Billy's Whiz Bang?
Are certain words creeping into his conversation?
Words like 'swell?"
And 'so's your old man?"
Well, if so my friends,
Ya got trouble,
Right here in River city!
With a capital "T"
And that rhymes with "P"
And that stands for Pool.
We've surely got trouble!
Right here in River City!
Remember the Maine, Plymouth Rock and the Golden Rule!
Oh, we've got trouble.
We're in terrible, terrible trouble.
That game with the fifteen numbered balls is a devil's tool!
Oh yes we got trouble, trouble, trouble!
With a "T"! Gotta rhyme it with "P"!
And that stands for Pool!!!

[QUOTE=Karas
When I'm saying that waiting after waiting a few minutes the physical discipline becomes emotionally disasociated from the act being punished. While the child way logically understand the reason for the spanking it won't have any long term impact.

I disagree, first I dont know why your waiting a few minutes, smack straight away, if the offense is that bad, dont hesitate.

The long term impact is greater than you know.



What I meant by too log was that there comes an age when a child understands that he or she can fight back. When that age comes then physical discipline is counterproductive.

How do you come by the child understands they can fight back?
Your making it sound like the child is the victim of some act of brutality, I dont know what you did when your parents physically punished you, but I never seriously thought once about hitting them back, sure I entertained the idea, but their your parents you know, I mean, if it wasnt for them you wouldnt even be here, wheres the gratitude?
I would of course understand some kid going off his/her head one day, if they were being cruely brutalised, but this isnt the same thing.



The most important thing for children is consistancy. it isn't a lack of discipline that is their problem so much as a lack of consistant discipline. If you spank then spank consistantly and predictably. If you use time outs then use time outs consistantly and predictably. It is predictable consequences that they need, nothing more and nothing less.

Absolutely.

you must never reprimand a child when you're angry. At this point, you've already lost control. You have to get to their level and speak eye to eye in a calm and steady voice. I think many adults make the mistake of explaining too much to children. Children start to need a reason for everything- "No-Wait Jeremy, dont run out into the street-its possible a car or truck which is much larger and harder than you could hit you because the driver may not be paying attention".
Stop explaining everything. Yes means yes and no means no because YOU SAID SO. Be the parent. A parent is the benevolent DICTATOR of the household. Its not a democracy where everything comes up for a vote and gets debated. You must still treat the child with respect-no demeaning or name calling.
Consistancy IS the key. Mom and Dad can disagree on something, but dont discuss in front of the children. Support each other and dont undermine the other parent's authority. Dont reward bad behavior in any way. And never give in to a tyrant. If the child has a fit for something and you hold out for a while, but then tire and give in-the next time you can expect the fit to last and last as they know you'll be week again. And all they've got is time.
Reward good behavior-with affection and attention. Dont give the child candy-read to them or play a game with them or go hunt for a secret treasure out in the yard. Dont placate them with a lollipop-its your attention and acceptance they really want. Your approval is worth more than anything to them.

you must never reprimand a child when you're angry. At this point, you've already lost control. You have to get to their level and speak eye to eye in a calm and steady voice. I think many adults make the mistake of explaining too much to children. Children start to need a reason for everything- "No-Wait Jeremy, dont run out into the street-its possible a car or truck which is much larger and harder than you could hit you because the driver may not be paying attention".
Stop explaining everything. Yes means yes and no means no because YOU SAID SO. Be the parent. A parent is the benevolent DICTATOR of the household. Its not a democracy where everything comes up for a vote and gets debated. You must still treat the child with respect-no demeaning or name calling.
Consistancy IS the key. Mom and Dad can disagree on something, but dont discuss in front of the children. Support each other and dont undermine the other parent's authority. Dont reward bad behavior in any way. And never give in to a tyrant. If the child has a fit for something and you hold out for a while, but then tire and give in-the next time you can expect the fit to last and last as they know you'll be week again. And all they've got is time.
Reward good behavior-with affection and attention. Dont give the child candy-read to them or play a game with them or go hunt for a secret treasure out in the yard. Dont placate them with a lollipop-its your attention and acceptance they really want. Your approval is worth more than anything to them.

I agree mostly with that, but being angry yourself when you reprimand them doesnt necessarily mean screaming like an idiot at them, Im quite able of being angry and level headed at the same time as are a lot of other people, children sense your anger whether you control it or not, I agree of course that loosing control and screaming at them is not the way to go, thats why you grab them and use a smack on the bum instead.

Feminism especially has absolutely ruined kids in numerous ways, the removal by them of the Father the best provider of discipline, and in my view the most level headed( sorry but most women are shocking at it)

What the f***? My nanna would have taken her husband's belt and strapped you for that! Feminism has done nothing to undermine the way women discipline kids. Since in a traditional nuclear family, it's the mum who has to yell at the snotlings all day, I would say that mothers do a lot more disciplining that you will give them credit for.

I suspect that your entire understanding of the feminist movement is based on the SCUM manifesto and its ideals, which is extreme and not at all an accurate representation of feminism. It's akin to saying that the paedophile priest is an accurate representation of the Catholic Church.

Feminism has encouraged an environment where the woman's voice can be heard on matters such as discipline. As far as the naughty kids on the schoolbus goes, I agree with the driver. I know a bloke who used to kick kids off his bus for bad behaviour when he was driving, and he was respected. The fault lies with the PARENTS for not disciplining their kids properly and at a young enough age. If your kids get to 17 and think that behaviour is apporpriate, clearly something has gone wrong somewhere along the way.

Don't shift the blame to feminism because you're afraid to put the blame on the inadequacey of the individuals responsible.

Ironically Dr. Spock told his own family in latter years, that all his theorys on child rearing he so espoused as gospel, he now considered utter rubbish, and the world best seller that made him a household name, would have been better used to smack the childs bum with.

That is a lie, you insufferable bastard. Spock died in the Mutari Nebula whilst saving the entire crew from the effects of the genesis wave. Next you'll be blaming Jean Luc Picard for high teen pregnancy rates. Get your facts straight!!!

That is a lie, you insufferable bastard. Spock died in the Mutari Nebula whilst saving the entire crew from the effects of the genesis wave. Next you'll be blaming Jean Luc Picard for high teen pregnancy rates. Get your facts straight!!!

Keep the personal attacks out of it, or Ill report you to moderation, clear?

How many kids do you have sea bass?

Stop explaining everything. Yes means yes and no means no because YOU SAID SO. Be the parent. A parent is the benevolent DICTATOR of the household. Its not a democracy where everything comes up for a vote and gets debated. You must still treat the child with respect-no demeaning or name calling.

I disagree with your contention that explanation is unnecessary. Discipline is only effective if it is given for a reason, otherwise kids will attribute reasons for it that are probably not too accurate, like "Mum is PMSing, Dad hates me." Searching for reasons for events is a natural human mechanism. In fact, it's a mechanism found even in rats and pigeons. (The food pellet comes out of the chute when I press the lever).

When someone punishes you as an adult, you need to know why you are being punished, otherwise you'll conclude things like "the policeman is a bastard." All of the juvenile offenders I have worked with have responded positively to guidance when they are given reasons for the guidance. Being a dictator, no matter how benelovent you try to be, will only encourage that kind of dictator mindset in children, and will not provide them with the skills to justify their imposition.

If you want children to learn how to be adults, you need to treat them with the respect that you'd give an adult. That doesn't mean that you let them make decisons like an adult, but you have to impose your decisions upon them with the respect and reasoning that you would give an adult. How else is the child to grow to be an adult if they are denied that opportunity to learn the abilities associated with being an adult?

[QUOTE=Boodicka]What the f***? My nanna would have taken her husband's belt and strapped you for that! Feminism has done nothing to undermine the way women discipline kids. Since in a traditional nuclear family, it's the mum who has to yell at the snotlings all day, I would say that mothers do a lot more disciplining that you will give them credit for.

Yes, unfortunately their not as capable of it, hense the screaming and nonstop yelling.
In the traditional family, most women only had to threaten their kids with the return of the father and his belt or fists, that usually bought peace and instant silence.


I suspect that your entire understanding of the feminist movement is based on the SCUM manifesto and its ideals, which is extreme and not at all an accurate representation of feminism. It's akin to saying that the paedophile priest is an accurate representation of the Catholic Church.

Unfortunately the SCUM manifesto is representative of most feminists to a certain degree, we know you look up to the most livid and hatefilled ones with covert admiration.


Feminism has encouraged an environment where the woman's voice can be heard on matters such as discipline.

Unfortunately it seems to be the ONLY voice now.


As far as the naughty kids on the schoolbus goes, I agree with the driver. I know a bloke who used to kick kids off his bus for bad behaviour when he was driving, and he was respected. The fault lies with the PARENTS for not disciplining their kids properly and at a young enough age. If your kids get to 17 and think that behaviour is apporpriate, clearly something has gone wrong somewhere along the way.

I dont know how old these kids were, but I do know kids were alot more responsible, and even more importantly respectful, before the advent of modern feminism dictating social condition on how kids should be bought up.



Don't shift the blame to feminism because you're afraid to put the blame on the inadequacey of the individuals responsible.

Feminism is to blame, as are the individuals 'parenting' these kids, see answer just above.

How many kids do you have sea bass?

One.

Keep the personal attacks out of it, or Ill report you to moderation, clear?

I thought the "personal attack" would be seen for what it was considering the rest of my post. Or did you really think I was angry with you for insulting Commander Spock? If you did, Then I humbly apologize. I honestly thought you would find it amusing. As for reporting it to the moderators... go ahead and report it. I hope they find it entertaining.

In the future, I will put you on my "no sarcastic banter - dude takes everything literally" list. This will not happen again.

I got smacked quite a bit as a youngster. I had (she's calmer now!) a bad-tempered mom who was never quite sure which of the three children was naughty, so she would roundly smack the lot of us. It never made me respect her. It made me deeply angry, and it also made me not trust her. As a child I could never understand how someone who claimed they loved me would purposely injure me. We didn't get smacked with a bare hand - we got spanked with a leather belt on bare skin. That's when we were lucky. When we were unlucky she got a wooden spoon and used that on us. Or sometimes shoes.
I'm 31 years old and still resentful about being treated like that.
I have two kids, a three-year-old and a 6 month old. I guess I would be considered a feminist, but my husband and I discuss disciplinary issues and figure out punishments together. I absolutely do not allow spanking and my husband agrees. We get a lot of compliments on how well behaved our son is. We've even taken him to fancy restaurants because he knows what is expected of him and he is very polite. The waitstaff loves him because he says please and thank-you.
I fail to see that feminism has done anything to create poorly behaved children. I only see that poor behavior is a result of neglect from both parents.
And please, when using the contraction of 'you are' PLEASE for gods' sake put in the apostrophe and use correct spelling! (you're)

If you want children to learn how to be adults, you need to treat them with the respect that you'd give an adult. That doesn't mean that you let them make decisons like an adult, but you have to impose your decisions upon them with the respect and reasoning that you would give an adult. How else is the child to grow to be an adult if they are denied that opportunity to learn the abilities associated with being an adult?

That is just so wrong, and very indicative of why kids are being bought up so wrong these days, you dont give a child that kind of respect, the child is not an adult, simply, so you dont treat them like their one.

And you would be happy to be seen as the sole disciplinarian? I would rather share that responsibility with my partner, still it takes all sorts I suppose.

Fear of my dad's anger has always had far less effect on my behavior than fear of my mom being disappointed with me had.

And about "once a kid thinks of fighting back" bit. It's true. My dad stopped using physical punishment on me (which he very rarely ever did anyway) about the time I first thought of socking him while he was disciplining me. Of course, for some reason, around that time was the last incident I got anything more than a stern talking to as punishment, cause there wasn't really a need after that. I haven't been punished in the conventional sense in years and years. Now I can't be, really.

That is a lie, you insufferable bastard. Spock died in the Mutari Nebula whilst saving the entire crew from the effects of the genesis wave. Next you'll be blaming Jean Luc Picard for high teen pregnancy rates. Get your facts straight!!!

Thats a personal attack, Gartref, do it again and you go to moderation,
OK.

And you would be happy to be seen as the sole disciplinarian?

I never said that.

Fear of my dad's anger has always had far less effect on my behavior than fear of my mom being disappointed with me had.
And about "once a kid thinks of fighting back" bit. It's true. My dad stopped using physical punishment on me (which he very rarely ever did anyway) about the time I first thought of socking him while he was disciplining me. Of course, for some reason, around that time was the last incident I got anything more than a stern talking to as punishment, cause there wasn't really a need after that. I haven't been punished in the conventional sense in years and years. Now I can't be, really.

Sounds like you havent learnt much, if you still see yourself as in need of punishment, but too old to recieve it. Well you can always get punishment from outside your family, now that your an er adult.

Thats a personal attack, Gartref, do it again and you go to moderation.
Clear?

Well now you're just being silly. You should have been spanked more as a child. I already apologized once. What do you want from me? A dvd box-set of Star-Trek: Next Generation?

Let me say this again more clearly. It never entered my mind that you would take that "personal attack" seriously since it was based on a ridiculous and farcical premise. The fact that you actually seem to be offended has surprised me and I have already apologized and vowed to never do it again. To again threaten me with the feared moderation is now verging on the bizarre. Unless, of course, you are the one being sarcastic - and I am the punk'd one. If that is the case, then I doff my hat to you and say: "well done".

Sounds like you havent learnt much, if you still see yourself as in need of punishment, but too old to recieve it. Well you can always get punishment from outside your family, now that your an er adult.

I don't see myself as still in need of punishment; stop being pretentious. I was saying that they couldn't punish me now if I needed it.

And it's "learned," not "learnt."

You know, MSB, when I called you an "insufferable Bastard" in my first post, I was just trying to stay in the persona of someone who would actually have confused Dr. Spock and Mr. Spock and be offended that you were trashing his Star-Trek hero. I thought it was funny in a lame self-deprecating way.

But now that I have gone back and actually read some of the content in this thread, I am struck by my uncanny intuition. Dude, at risk of moderation, you actually are insufferable. I have never seen someone whine about personal attacks while at the same time inviting them with such vitriolic crap. Here is just a sampling of your mean-spiritedness:

...Also if you cant see the negative effect the feminist movement has had apon familys, then your deliberately turning a blind eye to it.

...If your kid was a retard, yes...

Good, who cares :rolleyes:

...Unfortunately the SCUM manifesto is representative of most feminists to a certain degree, we know you look up to the most livid and hatefilled ones with covert admiration...

...Sounds like you havent learnt much...

Dude, you are a walking personal attack. You are also one of the worst spellers I have ever seen for an adult. I think your parents should have smacked some spelling lessons into your head. They should have taught you some manners, too.

Did anyone born past 1955 actually get raised on Dr. Spock?

Anyway, for its time, Dr. Spock's work was essential. Do you realise that Dr. Spock was the first person after the horrors of Victorian era distant parenting to tell parents to actually be affectionate with their children?

I mean ... :eek: :eek: Heaven forbid you actually *hug* your child now and then.

I'd also like to point out that Dr. Spock did encourage physical discipline. The "don't spank, just give a lovey" thing didn't begin until the 1960s and it had nothing to do with feminism.

I can see someone hasn't actually read Dr. Spock.

Anyway, no matter. I can tell you this, though. Based on your attitude, were I your kid's teacher, I'd make damn sure authorities were called on any bruise your child had. You're borderline psychotic about a child .... A CHILD! Big man, you are, feeling the need to frighten someone half your size in order to get your way. Yeehaw!

Spank? Yes, if necessary and only if necessary and not, I REPEAT, not when they're toddlers. Trust me ... spanking someone under the age of, say, 6 doesn't do a damn bit of good. They just figure, "Well, we're even now, let's go misbehave again." Incidently, though, if you can't discipline well enough through words and example, then all I can do is shake my head and sigh. Spanking should be a last resort.

Oh, and believe me ... if I see a child getting beaten in public, I will intervene and my 6'4, 210 pound, US Army Ranger ass will not get "more then a smack too".

[tag] so I can post when I'm not bloody tired tomorrow.

Well now you're just being silly. You should have been spanked more as a child. I already apologized once. What do you want from me? A dvd box-set of Star-Trek: Next Generation?
Let me say this again more clearly. It never entered my mind that you would take that "personal attack" seriously since it was based on a ridiculous and farcical premise. The fact that you actually seem to be offended has surprised me and I have already apologized and vowed to never do it again. To again threaten me with the feared moderation is now verging on the bizarre. Unless, of course, you are the one being sarcastic - and I am the punk'd one. If that is the case, then I doff my hat to you and say: "well done".

Ha! I got alot more than spanked mate.
But seeing as your willing to forget and forgive, I will too.

Did anyone born past 1955 actually get raised on Dr. Spock?Anyway, for its time, Dr. Spock's work was essential. Do you realise that Dr. Spock was the first person after the horrors of Victorian era distant parenting to tell parents to actually be affectionate with their children?
I mean ... :eek: :eek: Heaven forbid you actually *hug* your child now and then.
I'd also like to point out that Dr. Spock did encourage physical discipline. The "don't spank, just give a lovey" thing didn't begin until the 1960s and it had nothing to do with feminism.
I can see someone hasn't actually read Dr. Spock.
Anyway, no matter. I can tell you this, though. Based on your attitude, were I your kid's teacher, I'd make damn sure authorities were called on any bruise your child had. You're borderline psychotic about a child .... A CHILD! Big man, you are, feeling the need to frighten someone half your size in order to get your way. Yeehaw!
Spank? Yes, if necessary and only if necessary and not, I REPEAT, not when they're toddlers. Trust me ... spanking someone under the age of, say, 6 doesn't do a damn bit of good. They just figure, "Well, we're even now, let's go misbehave again." Incidently, though, if you can't discipline well enough through words and example, then all I can do is shake my head and sigh. Spanking should be a last resort.
Oh, and believe me ... if I see a child getting beaten in public, I will intervene and my 6'4, 210 pound, US Army Ranger ass will not get "more then a smack too".

I have read some of Dr. Spocks work, and he strongly discourages physical discipline. Im not trying to frighten anyone mate, especially alittle kid, but this method ususlly works the best, and its true what they say, it hurts you alot more than it hurts them. Theres nothing wriong with giving a toddler a smack on the bum either, Im not horse whipping them, so stop going to extremes in your replys. If I saw a child getting beaten in public Id interfere too, however your version of beaten and mine are probably two different things alltogether.
6'4 210 pound Army Ranger with a vivid imagination about himself I think. :rolleyes:

You know, MSB, when I called you an "insufferable Bastard" in my first post, I was just trying to stay in the persona of someone who would actually have confused Dr. Spock and Mr. Spock and be offended that you were trashing his Star-Trek hero. I thought it was funny in a lame self-deprecating way.
But now that I have gone back and actually read some of the content in this thread, I am struck by my uncanny intuition. Dude, at risk of moderation, you actually are insufferable. I have never seen someone whine about personal attacks while at the same time inviting them with such vitriolic crap. Here is just a sampling of your mean-spiritedness:
Dude, you are a walking personal attack. You are also one of the worst spellers I have ever seen for an adult. I think your parents should have smacked some spelling lessons into your head. They should have taught you some manners, too.

Thats it your reported, I dont have to take this.

In the traditional family, most women only had to threaten their kids with the return of the father and his belt or fists, that usually bought peace and instant silence.

Um. I don't yell and scream when I have to confront someone (a child or adult). Isn't one woman evidence enough to contradict your generalisation that women aren't skilled disciplinarians?

My mother didn't have to threaten me with the pressence of my father for me to listen to her. I think it's a sorry state of a family if the woman has to always defer her authority to the man. It doesn't encourage the children to regard a woman as worthy of respect, but if that's the kind of skewed, sexist influence you want for your kids, I'll thank you now for your contribution to the future of domestic violence.
Unfortunately the SCUM manifesto is representative of most feminists to a certain degree, we know you look up to the most livid and hatefilled ones with covert admiration.
For starters, some evidence as to why you have come to that conclusion about feminism would be good. Maybe evidence that you've researched feminism outside of the SCUM manifesto. Secondly, some evidence as to why I admire livid and hatefilled people would also be appreciated. Faulty generalisations like that aren't a substitute for a non-existent argument.


Unfortunately it seems to be the ONLY voice now.
Again, how so? Why does disciplining a child from a perspective that respects both men and women equally offend you so much? Considering that people have both male and female children, why shouldn't girls be raised in a way that shows that women are worthy of the rights and respects that men are? Considering that women have the opportunity to work and support a family, to achieve in a career and contribute to society, I think it's essential that girls have strong rolemodels to help them grow into adults. A woman's life doesn't solely consist of goals like: menarche, get married, have kids, die. Don't limit the achievements of half of all humans to the capacity of their bodies. We aren't livestock.
I dont know how old these kids were, but I do know kids were alot more responsible, and even more importantly respectful, before the advent of modern feminism dictating social condition on how kids should be bought up.
Maybe you could define feminism for us. How do you conclude that gender equality has impaired these children's respect for authority? Of course there's a trend now compared to the fifties for children and adolescents to assert their individuality and reject conformity to what society accepts, but this is hardly the domain of feminism. Social change is not solely the result of one movement. There was the Civil Rights movement and the Declaration of the Rights of the Child. They weren't exclusively feminist. Perhaps they influenced people's attitudes to children?
Feminism is to blame, as are the individuals 'parenting' these kids, see answer just above.
Children aren't mindless playthings, they're people. The role of a parent is to teach a child how to behave and survive as an adult in the world. While a child should respect their parents and other people, they need to understand what respect is and why it is important. There are many lessons which aren't implicit with a beating. Punishment is an unpleasant even that is contingent on the recipient's behaviour. Punishment without a reason isn't punishment. The efficacy of a punishment is reliant upon the reason given. If you come home every night and thump your kids without giving them a reason, then what are you expecting that they learn from the thumping?

What I said in my above post was that you DON'T let kids make the decisions, but you give them the respect that you would give an adult. That means that you listen to their argument and you explain to them why they are being punished. There is a difference between respect and power, and I would rather people respected me than feared me.

Thats it your reported, I dont have to take this.

Classic bully behavior. Strikes out inappropriately at everyone around him - and the second someone hits back - cries and tattles.

The sad part of it is, that your behavior is probably due to the fact that you were an abused child.

Unfortunately, you seem hell-bent on continuing the circle of pain with your own child.

Sad indeed.

Classic bully behavior. Strikes out inappropiately at everyone around him - and the second someone hits back - cries and tattles.
The sad part of it is, that your behavior is probably due to the fact that you were an abused child.
Unfortunately, you seem hell-bent on continuing the circle of pain with your own child.
Sad indeed.
Ive reported you to the moderators, Ill let them handle you. :rolleyes:

Ive reported you to the moderators, Ill let them handle you. :rolleyes:

Why don't you deal with your real problem?

...Ha! I got alot more than spanked mate...

Obviously, by your own admission, you were beaten as a child. Don't you think this may have contributed to your inappropriate hostile behavior?

Take this from another thread less than an hour ago:

What a big steaming load of shit. :rolleyes:

This was your first post in that thread. You don't see that as overly antagonistic or perhaps an unwarranted personal attack?

You have been nothing short of nasty and insufferable in this thread. My inane "personal attack" may have been a lame joke, but at least it wasn't mean-spirited. Nearly everything you post is done with the intention of injury. So... go tattle and cry... but don't think you're fooling anyone.

[QUOTE=Boodicka]Um. I don't yell and scream when I have to confront someone (a child or adult). Isn't one woman evidence enough to contradict your generalisation that women aren't skilled disciplinarians?

No. And Im not saying women cant discipline either, I just think the father does a much better job of it.

My mother didn't have to threaten me with the pressence of my father for me to listen to her. I think it's a sorry state of a family if the woman has to always defer her authority to the man. It doesn't encourage the children to regard a woman as worthy of respect, but if that's the kind of skewed, sexist influence you want for your kids, I'll thank you now for your contribution to the future of domestic violence.

Get real will you, your taking this to extremes, as for your twisted skew on domestic violence, a much larger percentage of domestic violence is reported as instigated by women against men, than men against women, and alot more kids report being usually attacked by their mother than their father, because women totally loose the plot, when they loose control. Your angelic generalisation of women being the sole blameless victims of domestic violence is nothing but a lie vigourously encouraged by feminists and social workers.
Also, its so true that women are terrified of getting no respect from their children, if they regard their father with more respect than they do her, which is why part of the Feminist agenda is to totally remove the father as head of the family in this regard, women are alot more insecure than men, when it comes to their childrens view of them, and this has always been a sore point in friction between a husband and wife.


For starters, some evidence as to why you have come to that conclusion about feminism would be good. Maybe evidence that you've researched feminism outside of the SCUM manifesto. Secondly, some evidence as to why I admire livid and hatefilled people would also be appreciated. Faulty generalisations like that aren't a substitute for a non-existent argument.

Well if you cant admit that Feminism has done alot more bad for society than good, despite all the evidence around you, then you must admire the Femnazis like scum, because groups like them are at the forefront of your movement, they are not some sideshow of freaks that have no influence on the feminist movement.
Although I do admit their freaks.

Again, how so? Why does disciplining a child from a perspective that respects both men and women equally offend you so much? Considering that people have both male and female children, why shouldn't girls be raised in a way that shows that women are worthy of the rights and respects that men are? Considering that women have the opportunity to work and support a family, to achieve in a career and contribute to society, I think it's essential that girls have strong rolemodels to help them grow into adults. A woman's life doesn't solely consist of goals like: menarche, get married, have kids, die. Don't limit the achievements of half of all humans to the capacity of their bodies. We aren't livestock.

You are really taking this way too far, in the hope of reducing my point of view.
Why bring women arent livestock into it? Why kick up such abig fuss over delegating discipline to the father instead of the mother? Is it that big a sore opoint with you and other feminists, that in this aspect of a childs developement, that maybe, just maybe, you arent as good at it.
Does winning your childs respect depend soley on you believing your child fears you as much as his/her father?

Maybe you could define feminism for us. How do you conclude that gender equality has impaired these children's respect for authority?

Gender equality is mostly social enginneering worked into law by militant feminists, who have stooped to every level of bitchiness and slander over the last 30 odd years possible.
Presenting a child with his Father and Mother figures as equal in every aspect, is ridiculous, because they are simply not the same thing, both provide positive influences of the same nature, but when it comes to instilling respect for other people and things, Fathers have it all over the Mothers.
When it comes to instilling compassion, Mothers have it all over the Fathers.
Im sorry, but the social engineering pushed into schools, workplaces and beaucracy is nothing short of frankenstine.
For instance, the gender swapping a few decades back, which had some parents presenting their sons with dolls and their daughters with toy soldiers, is an example of this.
The best way to find out is to let the child decide, and funnily enough most girls will grab a dolly, and most boys will grab a tonka truck.


Of course there's a trend now compared to the fifties for children and adolescents to assert their individuality and reject conformity to what society accepts, but this is hardly the domain of feminism. Social change is not solely the result of one movement. There was the Civil Rights movement and the Declaration of the Rights of the Child. They weren't exclusively feminist. Perhaps they influenced people's attitudes to children?

I cant see how the civil rights movement has influenced the way children are bought up as in terms of gender equity etc, the major push for fathers to be removed from any valuble role in familys, etc as a wallet, has come from feminist beaucracy, sit in family court for afew weeks mlike I have, and this might open your eyes up(not flaming) to the damage feminism has done chiefly to marriage between men and women, and Fathers rights.


Children aren't mindless playthings, they're people. The role of a parent is to teach a child how to behave and survive as an adult in the world. While a child should respect their parents and other people, they need to understand what respect is and why it is important. There are many lessons which aren't implicit with a beating.

Beating? I never mentioned going to such an extreme.

Punishment is an unpleasant even that is contingent on the recipient's behaviour. Punishment without a reason isn't punishment. The efficacy of a punishment is reliant upon the reason given. If you come home every night and thump your kids without giving them a reason, then what are you expecting that they learn from the thumping?

I dont come home and thump my kid as you like to think, Ive never thumped any kid for that matter, and would be repulsed and angry if I saw anyone else doing it.

What I said in my above post was that you DON'T let kids make the decisions, but you give them the respect that you would give an adult. That means that you listen to their argument and you explain to them why they are being punished. There is a difference between respect and power, and I would rather people respected me than feared me.

You dont give kids that much respect, their not adults, so you dont treat them as such.
And my kid respects me, doesnt fear me, but knows if she steps out of line, she could get a smack on the bottie.

[tag] so I can post when I'm not bloody tired tomorrow.

I fear the thread may be locked or deleted by the time you're ready to post. Judging by the hate-filled rhetoric in MSB's last post, he's about due for a complete meltdown and banning.

You are really taking this way too far, in the hope of reducing my point of view.
Why bring women arent livestock into it? Why kick up such abig fuss over delegating discipline to the father instead of the mother? Is it that big a sore opoint with you and other feminists, that in this aspect of a childs developement, that maybe, just maybe, you arent as good at it.
Does winning your childs respect depend soley on you believing your child fears you as much as his/her father?

Er...aren't you assuming that she disciplines her kids by scaring them into submission? Are you saying that children have to be scared of their parents to respect them?

EDIT: Oops, just noticed that last section of your post. I don't get it, this seems to contradict what you said later on. This comment suggests that you think fear is important for discipline, but you deny that further on in your post.

Gartref[/B]]

[QUOTE]Obviously, by your own admission, you were beaten as a child. Don't you think this may have contributed to your inappropriate hostile behavior?

No I just said I copped more than a spanking, I was never beaten, do you even know what that is? :confused:


Take this from another thread less than an hour ago:

Yes, I said that so what? It was something the poster quoted from another source, so how could it be an attack on him/her?
You really should learn to read the thread through better next time. :rolleyes:


You have been nothing short of nasty and insufferable in this thread. My inane "personal attack" may have been a lame joke, but at least it wasn't mean-spirited. Nearly everything you post is done with the intention of injury. So... go tattle and cry... but don't think you're fooling anyone.

Mate Im not the one going off like a pork chop, if anyones tattling and crying here it seems to be you. I dont really like taking something to Moderation, but that was the advice I got from the team on here, to let them handle any difficult people like you, and not carry on in a childish flame war.

Anyway, this shall be the last thing I will say to you, I leave it to the mods, as your simply not worth the exercise anymore.

No I just said I copped more than a spanking, I was never beaten, do you even know what that is? :confused:

Definitions of what 'beating' is can differ from person to person.

Er...aren't you assuming that she disciplines her kids by scaring them into submission? Are you saying that children have to be scared of their parents to respect them?

Most women do use their tounges to discipline their kids first, and kids usually shutup, however this over aperiod of time seems to install aculture of bitchiness into the kid.
No, kids dont have to fear their parents in order to respect them, observing their parents doing hard work, or simply joking around with humour can install it too, respect comes after love, so if you fear your parents from being physically disciplined by them in a reasonable manner, then you musent love them.

Today another sad but expected inncident occurred in my city, as a result of badly bought up, spoilt rotten obnoxious kids. A bus driver absolutely lost the plot and instead of dropping the kids off home drove them all to the bus depo instead and left them their, apparrently he could no longer put up with their crap anymore. An inspector also on the bus was laughed at when he asked the kids to behave. No respect for authority, no manners.

*snip*
The Bus driver is under investigation by the police, because these kids rang up their parents on their mobiles, some of them in tears, saying the busdriver was kidnapping them.
*snip*



Setting aside the rest of your silliness, what is wrong with this picture?

We have only your version of this "event."

Bus driver is under investigation by the police. Refused to drive children home and instead drove them all to bus depot. Which does sound like kidnapping, btw!

During the kidnapping, some of the children -- crying -- called their parents using cell phones.

And you blame the children because "apparrently" the bus driver was frustrated and some children laughed at a bus inspector.

Even your version does not justify a rant against the children. (Let alone your rant.)

Definitions of what 'beating' is can differ from person to person.

A beatings a beating mate.
Its not a few slaps on the bum.

Anyway, this shall be the last thing I will say to you, I leave it to the mods, as your simply not worth the exercise anymore.

Cool. If that's the last thing you will say to me, then I get the last word! ;)

Here is the last word:

MSB - you are severely flawed in a sad, yet vexing, way. Although I feel sorry for you, that does not decrease my dislike for your mean-spirited, bigoted and offensive personality.

A beatings a beating mate.
Its not a few slaps on the bum.

And you said you've had more then a few slaps on the bum. So, I'm guessing that you define a beating as 'having your ass kicked so badly you spit blood'?

I see, in other words bore the living crap out of them with cold blooded lectures on what they did wrong for hour after hour, give me a smack anyday.

Used immediately, yes in some cases if parent is on the scene, other times afterwards, Im talking about toddlers from the age of three upwards here, not babies OK.

Sparingly, at first yes, but as the kid gets older, more force is required, like the kid should know better by now.

Sounds like your saying in public, wait till you get home scenario, wouldnt bother me, if a stranger wants to butt in, they will get more than a smack too.

If your kid was a retard, yes.
Kids are alot more intelligent than adults give them credit for, they know when therve done wrong, but only if you instill discipline and respect from an early age.

Im not saying go beat the crap out of them!

So, you advocate violence against both one's own children and strangers.

And you like to insult the mentally handicapped.

That will instill good morals!

Setting aside the rest of your silliness, what is wrong with this picture?
We have only your version of this "event."
Bus driver is under investigation by the police. Refused to drive children home and instead drove them all to bus depot. Which does sound like kidnapping, btw!
During the kidnapping, some of the children -- crying -- called their parents using cell phones.
And you blame the children because "apparrently" the bus driver was frustrated and some children laughed at a bus inspector.
Even your version does not justify a rant against the children. (Let alone your rant.)

Its not just my version mate, its everyones over here nearly. We all agree the majority of kids now are utter monsters on school buses.
http://www.sundaytimes.news.com.au/common/story_page/1,7034,15193752%255E421,00.html
http://www.busaustralia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6632&sid=83821a19014a762897df381edeeec423
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15196190-421,00.html
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,15196190%255E421,00.html
http://busaustralia.magus.net.au/forum/search.php?search_author=boronia&sid=25d9a2c3caf02f7cd6be6028eb5a2674
http://contribute.inthemix.com.au/forum/showthread.php?goto=lastpost&t=127789
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,15193752%255E421,00.html

Most women do use their tounges to discipline their kids first, and kids usually shutup, however this over aperiod of time seems to install aculture of bitchiness into the kid.
No, kids dont have to fear their parents in order to respect them, observing their parents doing hard work, or simply joking around with humour can install it too, respect comes after love, so if you fear your parents from being physically disciplined by them in a reasonable manner, then you musent love them.

So...if a kid misbehaves and the mother quietly tells them off, before going on to explain why they shouldn't misbehave, that would instill a culture of bitchiness in the kid?

Yes, yelling at kids or insulting them when they misbehave can probably instill a culture of bitchiness in them. But that isn't good verbal discipline.

I disagree, first I dont know why your waiting a few minutes, smack straight away, if the offense is that bad, dont hesitate.

The long term impact is greater than you know.

The long term impact of violence against children is greater than you appear to know.


How do you come by the child understands they can fight back?
Your making it sound like the child is the victim of some act of brutality, I dont know what you did when your parents physically punished you, but I never seriously thought once about hitting them back, sure I entertained the idea, but their your parents you know, I mean, if it wasnt for them you wouldnt even be here, wheres the gratitude?
I would of course understand some kid going off his/her head one day, if they were being cruely brutalised, but this isnt the same thing.

You are talking about making the child a victim of violence.

And, in the same paragraph, you say a child would never consider fighting back and them admit that you "entertained the idea" when you were a child. Holy contradiction, Batman!

[QUOTE=The Cat-Tribe]So, you advocate violence against both one's own children and strangers.

Ah firstly, were talking about disciplining your kids with physical force, not going as far as beating them to a pulp as you are suggesting, and I would beat a stranger to a pulp out of sheer rage if they touched my child, or interferred with how Im bringing up my kid.

And you like to insult the mentally handicapped.

Thats right take acomment, and present it completely out of context. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=The Cat-Tribe]The long term impact of violence against children is greater than you appear to know.

You are talking about making the child a victim of violence.

Its a smack on the bottom mate, savvy yet??

And, in the same paragraph, you say a child would never consider fighting back and them admit that you "entertained the idea" when you were a child. Holy contradiction, Batman!
I also said consider seriously fighting back, which means actually doing it...
sure we all entertained the idea, and some probably did it, in probability, Id have to say the kid fighting back, is probably terrified out of his /her life to do that.
Try to remember, Im not advocating putting your kid in hospital, just physical discipline.
Are we clear on that yet?

Cool. If that's the last thing you will say to me, then I get the last word! ;)
Here is the last word:
MSB - you are severely flawed in a sad, yet vexing, way. Although I feel sorry for you, that does not decrease my dislike for your mean-spirited, bigoted and offensive personality.

yawns*



.



can someone change the channel?

And you said you've had more then a few slaps on the bum. So, I'm guessing that you define a beating as 'having your ass kicked so badly you spit blood'?

Ah yes I do define a beating as that and worse, but I never recieved that from either of my parents.
If you have to know, the punishment off Dad was the belt, and mum used a wooden spoon.
Both happenned from time to time, and I got over both uses of punishment so long ago now, I cant remember even when I did.

yawns*



.



can someone change the channel?

Hah! I knew you were lying when you said you were done with me! You just had to post again! What a lamer!

Are you finished now?

:) :) :)

Hah! I knew you were lying when you said you were done with me! You just had to post again! What a lamer!
Are you finished now?
:) :) :)

here boy fetch!!
atta boy!
Happy now? :)

There, there, people

Ever since Desiderius Erasmus (you know, the famed Dutch humanist) wrote his treatise on education in 1529, people have been thinking (yes, thinking) about how children should be educated, who should be to blame for the obvious 'downward spiral of youth' (Erasmus blamed the follied rich), and ever since every generation (at least the shortsighted ones in it) has complained about the 'lawlessness' of the next. And to go even further back: Roman philosophers (Plinius, Tarquellinus, etc.) have complained about the youth in their time as well...
So, in conclusion:
1) it is a psychological and anthropological necessity that 'the next generation' differs from the current, otherwise there would be no protest against current wrongdoings.
2) 'the next generation' is, in fact, comprised of very different parts according to some particular 'personality' - with almost every possible personality of the current generation making it easy to find an opposition in the 'next generation'.
3) people differ, and don't always get along. Get over it.

And as Pete Townsend and his 'the Who' sang: the kids are alright. Discipline and respect are admirable traits for every person, even kids. But they need to grow up (and survive puberty), and they need to get a good example. Parents who both work every day and drop their kids off at some company or school that looks after them, often blame said institute for anything that goes wrong. First, take a look at yourself. Respect and discipline yourself, don't be hedonistic yourself (spend more time with your kid, not just the once-a-year obligatory fishing trip) - only then can one rightfully expect the same from his children.

And for the smart-asses: yes, you can indeed see me waving a finger ;)

There, there, people

Ever since Desiderius Erasmus (you know, the famed Dutch humanist) wrote his treatise on education in 1529, people have been thinking (yes, thinking) about how children should be educated, who should be to blame for the obvious 'downward spiral of youth' (Erasmus blamed the follied rich), and ever since every generation (at least the shortsighted ones in it) has complained about the 'lawlessness' of the next. And to go even further back: Roman philosophers (Plinius, Tarquellinus, etc.) have complained about the youth in their time as well...
So, in conclusion:
1) it is a psychological and anthropological necessity that 'the next generation' differs from the current, otherwise there would be no protest against current wrongdoings.
2) 'the next generation' is, in fact, comprised of very different parts according to some particular 'personality' - with almost every possible personality of the current generation making it easy to find an opposition in the 'next generation'.
3) people differ, and don't always get along. Get over it.
And as Pete Townsend and his 'the Who' sang: the kids are alright. Discipline and respect are admirable traits for every person, even kids. But they need to grow up (and survive puberty), and they need to get a good example. Parents who both work every day and drop their kids off at some company or school that looks after them, often blame said institute for anything that goes wrong. First, take a look at yourself. Respect and discipline yourself, don't be hedonistic yourself (spend more time with your kid, not just the once-a-year obligatory fishing trip) - only then can one rightfully expect the same from his children.
And for the smart-asses: yes, you can indeed see me waving a finger ;)

I agree over the centurys the older generation has always critised the undisciplined youth, but thats what people do, its natural.
But I would say that the majority of todays pampered western youth wouldnt last half a day without a beating if they were suddenly transported back to old Plinius's time.

Boy, MSB, you really know how to drive that politically incorrect bus... :D And don't try to use facts and logic on these people, it will only confuse them.

Dr. Spock was an idiot. His whole concept of discussion and letting children find their own way is ridiculous. Kids don't know what they want. No animal in nature "let's their offspring find their own way." You have to teach. A kid growing is attempting to establish their own dominance. Over the other kids in the school yard, over bus drivers, and over their parents. You do have to knock them back sometimes. Now, that doesn't always mean that you need to whip them. But sometimes it does. It's so funny for me to see my kid handling my wife. (He's two) She can reason, beg, whine, cajole, or scream, he does what he wants to. All I have to do is calmly and firmly say, Landon, no. And he stops. Why? Cause he knows I'm only going to give him one more warning. And then I'm getting up and he's getting smacked. What's my goal in this? Two years from now I won't have to smack him anymore. He'll listen when I tell him something. Not every time, I'm sure, but I'm betting a majority of the time. Does that mean I want to control his mind and make him listen to my every word? Nope. Is my kid terrified of me? Only when he screws up. Anyone that doubts that is welcome to come observe for a week. And before the parent police come knocking, it's perfectly legal in the state in which I reside to smack your kid as long as you're not bruising or causing serious injury. *sits back with arms behind his head* :D

But I would say that the majority of todays pampered western youth wouldnt last half a day without a beating if they were suddenly transported back to old Plinius's time.

Neither would you, for that matter. As I said, people differ - and that is an absolute truth when it comes to different times, i.e. vertical history.

Did anyone born past 1955 actually get raised on Dr. Spock?

Anyway, for its time, Dr. Spock's work was essential. Do you realise that Dr. Spock was the first person after the horrors of Victorian era distant parenting to tell parents to actually be affectionate with their children?

I mean ... :eek: :eek: Heaven forbid you actually *hug* your child now and then.

I'd also like to point out that Dr. Spock did encourage physical discipline. The "don't spank, just give a lovey" thing didn't begin until the 1960s and it had nothing to do with feminism.

I can see someone hasn't actually read Dr. Spock.

Anyway, no matter. I can tell you this, though. Based on your attitude, were I your kid's teacher, I'd make damn sure authorities were called on any bruise your child had. You're borderline psychotic about a child .... A CHILD! Big man, you are, feeling the need to frighten someone half your size in order to get your way. Yeehaw!

Spank? Yes, if necessary and only if necessary and not, I REPEAT, not when they're toddlers. Trust me ... spanking someone under the age of, say, 6 doesn't do a damn bit of good. They just figure, "Well, we're even now, let's go misbehave again." Incidently, though, if you can't discipline well enough through words and example, then all I can do is shake my head and sigh. Spanking should be a last resort.

Oh, and believe me ... if I see a child getting beaten in public, I will intervene and my 6'4, 210 pound, US Army Ranger ass will not get "more then a smack too".

**applause**

Agreed. Accurate, needed saying, and damn well said.

[QUOTE=Suklaa]Boy, MSB, you really know how to drive that politically incorrect bus... :D And don't try to use facts and logic on these people, it will only confuse them.

Tell me about it Suklaa, nice to see someone else on here not totally brainwashed or cowered by the thought police.
What amuses me most is how the pc on here claim to be the voice of reason, but go for your throat if you disagree with their views.

Dr. Spock was an idiot. His whole concept of discussion and letting children find their own way is ridiculous. Kids don't know what they want. No animal in nature "let's their offspring find their own way." You have to teach. A kid growing is attempting to establish their own dominance. Over the other kids in the school yard, over bus drivers, and over their parents. You do have to knock them back sometimes. Now, that doesn't always mean that you need to whip them. But sometimes it does. It's so funny for me to see my kid handling my wife. (He's two) She can reason, beg, whine, cajole, or scream, he does what he wants to. All I have to do is calmly and firmly say, Landon, no. And he stops. Why? Cause he knows I'm only going to give him one more warning. And then I'm getting up and he's getting smacked. What's my goal in this? Two years from now I won't have to smack him anymore. He'll listen when I tell him something. Not every time, I'm sure, but I'm betting a majority of the time. Does that mean I want to control his mind and make him listen to my every word? Nope. Is my kid terrified of me? Only when he screws up. Anyone that doubts that is welcome to come observe for a week. And before the parent police come knocking, it's perfectly legal in the state in which I reside to smack your kid as long as you're not bruising or causing serious injury. *sits back with arms behind his head*

I agree with everything you said, its funny watching women trying to reason with a kid, then loosing it when the kid tests them again, they should just let the father step in, its fixed so quickly.
Laws in my country say you can only use reasonable force to discipline your child (that means in their soft little book, a fairy tap probably :rolleyes: ) and anything above the shoulders is assault, which rules out the incredibly effective cuff across the head or ear.
In Sweden you can actually go to jail now, if you hit your kid anywhere when disciplining, those old tough vikings would be rolling in their graves now I think, if they could see whats happenned with their descendants going so soft.

[QUOTE]

Tell me about it Suklaa, nice to see someone else on here not totally brainwashed or cowered by the thought police.



I agree with everything you said, its funny watching women trying to reason with a kid, then loosing it when the kid tests them again, they should just let the father step in, its fixed so quickly.
Laws in my country say you can only use reasonable force to discipline your child (that means in their book, a fairy tap :rolleyes: ) and anything above the shoulders is assault, which rules out the incredibly effective cuff across the head or ear.
In Sweden you can actually go to jail now, if you hit your kid anywhere when disciplining, those old tough vikings would be rolling in their graves now I think, if they could see whats happenned with their descendants going so soft.
I'd rather teach my wife to get ahold of the boy. I'd rather not come home to find her cowering in the corner with a bruise on her cheek 12 years from now.

I'd rather teach my wife to get ahold of the boy. I'd rather not come home to find her cowering in the corner with a bruise on her cheek 12 years from now.

Im sure he will never do that if you teach him to respect his mother and other women.

And as Pete Townsend and his 'the Who' sang: the kids are alright.

Yes ... but little did we know then what he really meant.

:eek: :eek:

A kid growing is attempting to establish their own dominance. Over the other kids in the school yard, over bus drivers, and over their parents.

There is so much wrong with that statement that, frankly, I don't even know where to begin. I mean ... far be it from me help people understand children ... I am, after all, merely a teacher and I only got the position because my name was selected at random from a pickle jar during a social mixer ... but hey ...

*coff*

**applause**
Agreed. Accurate, needed saying, and damn well said.

look pussycats clapping his paws. :rolleyes:
Are you impressed with his big toughguy story cat, I wasnt.

There is so much wrong with that statement that, frankly, I don't even know where to begin. I mean ... far be it from me help people understand children ... I am, after all, merely a teacher and I only got the position because my name was selected at random from a pickle jar during a social mixer ... but hey ...


Wow. A teacher. I'm...so...impressed...
If you're a U.S. teacher, I'll be even MORE impressed...really...
Because from what I've seen in schools, that doesn't really make you the regional expert.
And taking one phrase out of my post doesn't really negate what I said either.

There is so much wrong with that statement that, frankly, I don't even know where to begin. I mean ... far be it from me help people understand children ... I am, after all, merely a teacher and I only got the position because my name was selected at random from a pickle jar during a social mixer ... but hey ...
*coff*

Oh right so now your a teacher, as well as a 6'4 260 pound US ranger, gee how do you find the time to be all these things?
What else are you? :)

And I see the wisdom in his statement.

Oh right so now your a teacher, as well as a 6'4 260 pound US ranger, gee how do you find the time to be all these things?
What else are you? :)


Let's see...

It all starts when a person graduates high school.

When I graduated high school, I joined the Army. Whilst in the Army, I did this fabulous new thing that's all the rage with the kids and went to college! New fangled, I know, but bear with me. Did the Ranger school thing, etc etc, and focused on other studies as well.

Years rolled by.

After my discharge, I continued to pursue my education. Eventually, they gave me this wonderful little thing called a "degree".

Then I went and took some very specialized classes and some specialized examinations and got what most people call a "teaching certificate".

Then I got a job.

Amazing how that works, isn't it?

Shall we work on how to tie shoes next?

Tell me about it Suklaa, nice to see someone else on here not totally brainwashed or cowered by the thought police.
What amuses me most is how the pc on here claim to be the voice of reason, but go for your throat if you disagree with their views.

I do claim to be the voice of reason, but I haven't exactly gone for your throat.

I'm not one of the 'PC brigade', insisting that spanking should be banned completely. I just happen to believe that verbal punishment is a much better method. Thus, I disagree rather strongly with your comments about how the youth are going to hell in a handbasket because they don't get spanked enough.

MSB, I note you respond to just about every post, but you missed one ...

Hmm.

What do you believe the effect of absent fathers is on children's uprearings?

How about abusive parents?

How about violent parents whose belief is to offer a beat-down to anyone who disagrees with them?

Perhaps parents who have no manners themselves and cannot conduct themselves in a mature, civilized manner?

What about parents who must blame their own failings on some outside group they can then demonize?

Well, I think that is amusing. I do wonder if all the kids were horrible though. I would have dropped the good ones off at their homes and left the others at the depot.

Let's see...
It all starts when a person graduates high school.
When I graduated high school, I joined the Army. Whilst in the Army, I did this fabulous new thing that's all the rage with the kids and went to college! New fangled, I know, but bear with me. Did the Ranger school thing, etc etc, and focused on other studies as well.
Years rolled by.
After my discharge, I continued to pursue my education. Eventually, they gave me this wonderful little thing called a "degree".
Then I went and took some very specialized classes and some specialized examinations and got what most people call a "teaching certificate".
Then I got a job.
Amazing how that works, isn't it?
Shall we work on how to tie shoes next?

After your discharge, ahh so your not a big tough 6'4 260 pound US ranger now, I also read on another thread you claim to be a muslim, arent they a religon of peace?

Well, I think that is amusing. I do wonder if all the kids were horrible though. I would have dropped the good ones off at their homes and left the others at the depot.

Over here its not homes unless the kids house is right next to the bustop.
The driver did the right thing in the end, and it should be made policy.

I do claim to be the voice of reason, but I haven't exactly gone for your throat.
I'm not one of the 'PC brigade', insisting that spanking should be banned completely. I just happen to believe that verbal punishment is a much better method. Thus, I disagree rather strongly with your comments about how the youth are going to hell in a handbasket because they don't get spanked enough.

They are.
Enough?? Some of them hit their own parents and dont get smacked!

After your discharge, ahh so your not a big tough 6'4 260 pound US ranger now, I also read on another thread you claim to be a muslim, arent they a religon of peace?

Once a Ranger, always a Ranger.

260? Stop adding weight.

Being a religion of peace does not mean being a religion of doormats and cattle.

They are.
Enough?? Some of them hit their own parents and dont get smacked!

It's not exactly widespread, by any stretch of the imagination.

Yes, unfortunately their not as capable of it, hense the screaming and nonstop yelling.

Women are capable of almost everything men are.

But neither good mothers nor good fathers compete in child beating competitions.

Men are quite capable of screaming and nonstop yelling.

But I wouldn't characterize most parents of any gender of routine screaming or nonstop yelling at their children.

Perhaps I'm just fond of facts.


In the traditional family, most women only had to threaten their kids with the return of the father and his belt or fists, that usually bought peace and instant silence.

Gotta love that myth of the "traditional family."


Did Cradles Always Rock? Or Did Mom Once Not Care?
The Way We Never Were (http://academic.evergreen.edu/c/coontzs/a10.html)
Does the American Family Have a History? Family Images and Realities (http://www.contemporaryfamilies.org/public/mintz1.php)
Nostalgia As Ideology (http://www.prospect.org/print/V13/7/coontz-s.html)
How We Live and How We Used to Live (http://www.contemporaryfamilies.org/public/education.php#howwelive)
In Search Of A Golden Age (http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC21/Coontz.htm)

If you come up with actual arguments against these, there are many, many more.

See, some people actually study these issues. (Not referring to me, but to the experts cited above.)


Unfortunately the SCUM manifesto is representative of most feminists to a certain degree, we know you look up to the most livid and hatefilled ones with covert admiration.

:rolleyes:

Yes, a manifesto written by one woman in 1967 that was denounced by leading feminists and feminist organizations (such as NOW) at the time "is representative of most feminists."

Absurd.

Care to prove any of what you say?

Unfortunately it seems to be the ONLY voice now.

Of course. Feminists rule the Earth from their secret hideout in Antartica. :rolleyes:


I dont know how old these kids were, but I do know kids were alot more responsible, and even more importantly respectful, before the advent of modern feminism dictating social condition on how kids should be bought up.

The ages of the kids was in the articles you claimed to be getting your information from.

Curious as to how you "do know" kids were more responsible and restpectful prior to feminism.

You're previous posts in other threads about how old you are would indicate this is not from personal knowledge.

Have any studies? Any proof?

Feminism is to blame, as are the individuals 'parenting' these kids, see answer just above.

Once again, any evidence?

Any evidence children are worse individuals than they used to be?

If so, any evidence that feminism is to blame?

One can say lots of silly things. Doesn't make them true.

[QUOTE=Katganistan]Hmm.
What do you believe the effect of absent fathers is on children's uprearings?

A sad one, a fathers influence is just as vital as a mothers, if you want to bring the so called 'dead beat dads' into this, try and see that because of court orders, most of them can rarely see their kids, despite paying childcare support, even if the mother now has another partner who provides support.
Yes there are alot of rotten guys out there who dont give a cent to help out for various reasons, but most estranged fathers give all they can, and would walk over a mile of broken glass if it meant they could see their children more.


How about abusive parents?

Most reports have abuse as coming more from the mother than the father, as in a larger percent of kids reporting their mothers hurting them not their fathers, this is of course rarely bought up if ever, in divorce proceedings.
Of course any abusive parent, no matter what their sex, a bad parent.



How about violent parents whose belief is to offer a beat-down to anyone who disagrees with them?

Dont like them either.


Perhaps parents who have no manners themselves and cannot conduct themselves in a mature, civilized manner?

Well that depends on what you view as mature and civilised I guess, and what you think are manners.


What about parents who must blame their own failings on some outside group they can then demonize?

A lot of parents are failing in their parental dutys percisely because of these outside groups, that have way too much power and interference over modern family life.
And they indeed, deserve to be demonised.

It's not exactly widespread, by any stretch of the imagination.

Proof?

Once a Ranger, always a Ranger.
260? Stop adding weight.
Being a religion of peace does not mean being a religion of doormats and cattle.

Sorry, out of curiosity how many kg = pounds?

Proof?

You didn't give any proof yourself. So I decided to make my own unfounded assertion.

You've made a lot of comments in this thread which you haven't backed up with any form of proof. Maybe once you prove some of what you've already said, I'll do a bit of digging and try to prove what I have said.

Im not saying women cant discipline either, I just think the father does a much better job of it. Why do you think that? I think the past 30 years have demonstrated that women are equally capable of rational, planned thought. Get real will you, your taking this to extremes, as for your twisted skew on domestic violence, a much larger percentage of domestic violence is reported as instigated by women against men, than men against women, and alot more kids report being usually attacked by their mother than their father, because women totally loose the plot, when they loose control. Your angelic generalisation of women being the sole blameless victims of domestic violence is nothing but a lie vigourously encouraged by feminists and social workers. I've worked in child protection, so I'm well aware that both men and women are capable of abuse. The most recent Australian Survey on domestic violence states that 7.1% (490,400) of women are victims of domestic violence by a man, and 46% (225584) of those abused women reported that the children in their care had witnessed the abuse. Now if you can find some stats on domestic violence perpetrated by women against men, and the proportion of abused men exceeds that of the abused women that I've seen, I'd be delighted to read it. Also, its so true that women are terrified of getting no respect from their children, if they regard their father with more respect than they do her, which is why part of the Feminist agenda is to totally remove the father as head of the family in this regard, women are alot more insecure than men, when it comes to their childrens view of them, and this has always been a sore point in friction between a husband and wife. I'm sorry to be the one to tell you, but that isn't an argument. Self-esteem is a matter for the individual person. It's not possible to make generalisations about all women and their child-raising self-esteem. Maybe if I was a mother who was being physically assaulted by my partner, I'd have low self-esteem. I'm not and I don't. Furthermore, fathers shouldn't have to be the head of the house. Marriage isn't about ownership, it's a shared relationship between two people. The nearest thing feminism has done to topple patriarchy in the nuclear family is to assert that the women deserve the same respect and authority in the relationship as the men. Not MORE, not LESS, but the SAME. Aside from this meaning that a man no longer owns his wife like a piece of meat, can you tell me how that is offensive to you? Well if you cant admit that Feminism has done alot more bad for society than good, despite all the evidence around you, then you must admire the Femnazis like scum, because groups like them are at the forefront of your movement, they are not some sideshow of freaks that have no influence on the feminist movement. Although I do admit their freaks. There are radicals in every political movement, it would be blindness to say otherwise. However, the outlier is not the mean. As for feminism doing more damage to society (by society I suppose you mean Western society), I'm eager to see some evidence instead of vague vitriol. I have 5 examples off the top of my head of how feminism has encouraged positive social change. Howabout you give me 5 examples to refute them.

Women's suffrage: This equals political accountability. Men no longer have to blame themselves for putting some jerk in office.
Equal pay for equal work: This is great for dual income families, as it means you can make a bit more money.
Ability to initiate a divorce: Great news if your husband is a drunken wife beater and you have children to protect.
Ability to control their own bodies when it comes to matters of health and birth control. Men don't have to be solely responsible for the condoms.
Support of the Civil Rights movement in the U.S. Speaks for itself, dunnit? You are really taking this way too far, in the hope of reducing my point of view. Why bring women arent livestock into it? Why kick up such abig fuss over delegating discipline to the father instead of the mother? Is it that big a sore opoint with you and other feminists, that in this aspect of a childs developement, that maybe, just maybe, you arent as good at it. Does winning your childs respect depend soley on you believing your child fears you as much as his/her father? I am not against men disciplining their children. I am merely arguing that it should not solely be their responsibility. Children are to be shared by both parents. I'd love to see some evidence as to why you persist with this contention that women are no good in matters of discipline. Perhaps some psychology and social studies texts. Perhaps some neurological studies on the biochemical differences in male and female brains.
What about women in positions of authority outside of the family? Teachers and defence force personel? I've had plenty of female teachers who were wonderful disciplinarians. Being a disciplinarian is not about fear, it is about love and respect. You ground/spank your kid because you love them and want them to learn that their behaviour is wrong, not because you want them to fear you. Making your children fear you is sick. Gender equality is mostly social enginneering worked into law by militant feminists, who have stooped to every level of bitchiness and slander over the last 30 odd years possible.
Presenting a child with his Father and Mother figures as equal in every aspect, is ridiculous, because they are simply not the same thing, both provide positive influences of the same nature, but when it comes to instilling respect for other people and things, Fathers have it all over the Mothers.
When it comes to instilling compassion, Mothers have it all over the Fathers.
Im sorry, but the social engineering pushed into schools, workplaces and beaucracy is nothing short of frankenstine.
For instance, the gender swapping a few decades back, which had some parents presenting their sons with dolls and their daughters with toy soldiers, is an example of this.
The best way to find out is to let the child decide, and funnily enough most girls will grab a dolly, and most boys will grab a tonka truck.
Bitchiness and slander? Again, I ask you for evidence. Men and women are different, yes. But I would propose that they are different as individuals, not as stereotypes. My father is intensely compassionate, yet highly authoritarian. I would say that I learnt more about compassion and empathy from him than my mother. My mother is a warm, caring person, very good at reasoning with me about my opinions, and was a wonderful disciplinarian, because she explained why my actions were wrong, and why I had to be punished. Both of my parents were responsible for exercisng punishment on us. People bring different skills into a relationship. Not all men are one way, and not all women are the other. To make such a generalisation indicates only a lack if knowledge outside of the traditional western social paradigm. Meet a few people from non-nuclear families, and your opinion might change.
When I was little, I really really wanted a set of matchbox cars like my cousin. :rolleyes:
I cant see how the civil rights movement has influenced the way children are bought up as in terms of gender equity etc, the major push for fathers to be removed from any valuble role in familys, etc as a wallet, has come from feminist beaucracy, sit in family court for afew weeks mlike I have, and this might open your eyes up(not flaming) to the damage feminism has done chiefly to marriage between men and women, and Fathers rights.
Man, I really don't care about what trouble you've been having in family court. Pity is not an argument. Evidence is. Relationships go arseup every day, and the emotional turmoil is sad, but you are the common denominator in your misfortune. If someone gets married, that's their choice. If that partner leaves them and takes the kiddy, that's the consequence. Life isn't fair, but feminism is trying to alleviate that.
Beating? I never mentioned going to such an extreme. I dont come home and thump my kid as you like to think, Ive never thumped any kid for that matter, and would be repulsed and angry if I saw anyone else doing it. I never said you did. It was an example. A hypothetical. You are not the centre of my universe. I didn't know I had to co-ordinate my language to compensate for your self-attribution.
You dont give kids that much respect, their not adults, so you dont treat them as such. And my kid respects me, doesnt fear me, but knows if she steps out of line, she could get a smack on the bottie.
I'm sure there are many ways you respect your child. I'm puzzled however, as to why you insist hat she's not worthy of respect because she's a child. How do you intend to teach your child about respect?
When I talk about respect, I don't mean that you take this 3 year old kid and start worshipping them, or let them make decisions about things. I mean that you treat them as a human being capable of their own actions. You don't constantly hold your child's hand wherever they go, or do everything for them. You teach them that they are responsible for the things they do. You teach them about blame and autonomy and how to be a good person. You don't punish them without reason like you would a dog. You don't treat them like mindless drones until they turn legal.

It seems to me that you are equating power and respect, and I think there is a huge distinction. Respect should be shown to all people, as a matter of courtesy. It's something we humans do that makes us different from animals. Power is derived from hierarchy and authority, and I don't think a child should be allowed authority until they learn responsibility and respect for others.

*Australian Bureau of Statistics Crime & Justice - Violent Crime: Violence against women. Australian Social Trends, Canberra.

Yes ... but little did we know then what he really meant.

:eek: :eek:
Can't seem to care about that, though. Just using it as a 'boutade'.

Anyhow, the way this post is continuing: I'm giving it a max of another hour before this turns into a US versus Europe thing, like everything else concerning politics and culture nowadays. As I said: WE ALL DIFFER, get over it :headbang:

And Seabass, you can't believe that traditional family crap, now can you? As a historian, I urge you not the use "the past" in some unthoughtful way. Like making it a Golden Age, or something. I urge you to read some history books, written by historians, not politicians.

No. And Im not saying women cant discipline either, I just think the father does a much better job of it.

And you are wrong.

And discipline need not be violence.


Get real will you, your taking this to extremes, as for your twisted skew on domestic violence, a much larger percentage of domestic violence is reported as instigated by women against men, than men against women,

Ridiculous. The opposite is true -- in either the US or Australia.

Prove your assertion.

EDIT:
Domestic Violence in Australia—an Overview of the Issues (http://www.aph.gov.au/library/intguide/SP/Dom_violence.htm)

women were nearly four times more likely to experience violence by a man than by a woman.



and alot more kids report being usually attacked by their mother than their father, because women totally loose the plot, when they loose control.

Prove it.

Your angelic generalisation of women being the sole blameless victims of domestic violence is nothing but a lie vigourously encouraged by feminists and social workers.

Absurd.

But I repeat my challenge that you prove that you have not just vigorously lied.

Also, its so true that women are terrified of getting no respect from their children, if they regard their father with more respect than they do her, which is why part of the Feminist agenda is to totally remove the father as head of the family in this regard, women are alot more insecure than men, when it comes to their childrens view of them, and this has always been a sore point in friction between a husband and wife.

One falsehood. After. Another.

Any proof?


Well if you cant admit that Feminism has done alot more bad for society than good, despite all the evidence around you, then you must admire the Femnazis like scum, because groups like them are at the forefront of your movement, they are not some sideshow of freaks that have no influence on the feminist movement.
Although I do admit their freaks.

1. Bizzarro logic. If you won't admit this lie is true, then these other lies are also true.

2. Feminazi is fighting words. It is an insult to women and to the Holocaust. Do not use that term.

3. Pray tell, how many members did SCUM have? Do you know?

4. SCUM is ancient history and was denounced by leading feminists and by organizations like NOW.

5. The freaks are those so insecure in their manhood they must villify feminists.

Gender equality is mostly social enginneering worked into law by militant feminists,

LOL.

From their secret headquarters again.

Last I knew white males were the majority of political and economic leadership in both the US and Australia.

But some of us aren't threatened by women and don't see equality as evil.

Go figure.

who have stooped to every level of bitchiness and slander over the last 30 odd years possible.

Pot, meet kettle.


Presenting a child with his Father and Mother figures as equal in every aspect, is ridiculous, because they are simply not the same thing, both provide positive influences of the same nature, but when it comes to instilling respect for other people and things, Fathers have it all over the Mothers.
When it comes to instilling compassion, Mothers have it all over the Fathers.
Im sorry, but the social engineering pushed into schools, workplaces and beaucracy is nothing short of frankenstine.

Have any evidence that your sad notions of stale gender roles are correct, Herr Doctor?



I cant see how the civil rights movement has influenced the way children are bought up as in terms of gender equity etc, the major push for fathers to be removed from any valuble role in familys, etc as a wallet, has come from feminist beaucracy, sit in family court for afew weeks mlike I have, and this might open your eyes up(not flaming) to the damage feminism has done chiefly to marriage between men and women, and Fathers rights.

LOL.

Unless you mean that feminism helped end the view that families were the property of men, perhaps you did not follow the court proceedings very well.

But, pray tell, what exactly did you see in family court that supports your thesis. And can you prove it?



Beating? I never mentioned going to such an extreme.

Oh, you waxed eloquent about blows to the head. That counts.


I dont come home and thump my kid as you like to think, Ive never thumped any kid for that matter, and would be repulsed and angry if I saw anyone else doing it.

So blows to the head is not "thumping" a kid.

I'd hate to think where you think the line should be drawn. Internal bleeding? Broken bones?

Most women do use their tounges to discipline their kids first, and kids usually shutup, however this over aperiod of time seems to install aculture of bitchiness into the kid.
No, kids dont have to fear their parents in order to respect them, observing their parents doing hard work, or simply joking around with humour can install it too, respect comes after love, so if you fear your parents from being physically disciplined by them in a reasonable manner, then you musent love them.

Telling kids to behave is wrong. Hitting them is right. Nice. :rolleyes:

If you don't like the beatings, it is your fault.

What a wonderful message. :rolleyes:

And Seabass, you can't believe that traditional family crap, now can you? As a historian, I urge you not the use "the past" in some unthoughtful way. Like making it a Golden Age, or something. I urge you to read some history books, written by historians, not politicians.

Hang on, what exactly is it, that you view as a traditional family, or rather the myth?

Ah firstly, were talking about disciplining your kids with physical force, not going as far as beating them to a pulp as you are suggesting,

What I said was violence. You do advocate violence against children.

You want to a draw a line and say "some violence against children is okay, but other violence is not." Feel free to explain and justify such a line.

So far, all you've done is say people should hit their children but not "beat[] them to a pulp." Bit vague, that. Open to misinterpretation (or correct interpretations you don't like to hear.)

and I would beat a stranger to a pulp out of sheer rage if they touched my child, or interferred with how Im bringing up my kid.

Then perhaps you should consider therapy before you commit an unjustified crime.

Thats right take acomment, and present it completely out of context. :rolleyes:

I quoted your entire post. I took nothing out of context.

But feel free to explain the context that makes "If your kid was a retard, yes." not insulting to the mentally handicapped.

Or you could simply admit your error and cut your losses.

Telling kids to behave is wrong. Hitting them is right. Nice. :rolleyes:

If you don't like the beatings, it is your fault.

What a wonderful message. :rolleyes:

Why am I suddenly reminded of the man who gives his child a couple black eyes and a broken arm and says, "There ... see what you made me do?"

*shudder*

Its a smack on the bottom mate, savvy yet??

Actually, you only say that when pushed.

You chortled fondly to another poster about blows to the head.

You've indicated beatings with a belt or a wooden spoon are fine.

Again, you want to say "some violence against kids is good" and never define the point at which violence against kids is bad. That leaves you defending violence against kids. Period.


I also said consider seriously fighting back, which means actually doing it...
sure we all entertained the idea, and some probably did it, in probability, Id have to say the kid fighting back, is probably terrified out of his /her life to do that.

Or sick of getting beaten so Daddy can feel better about himself. Or cause Daddy has issues.

Try to remember, Im not advocating putting your kid in hospital, just physical discipline.
Are we clear on that yet?

Clear.

You do advocate putting strangers that disagree with your use of violence against children in the hospital.

You advocate violence against children to some degree less than would put them in the hospital.

Telling kids to behave is wrong. Hitting them is right. Nice. :rolleyes:
If you don't like the beatings, it is your fault.
What a wonderful message. :rolleyes:

Its not my fault if you cant understand it.
And stop twisting my point of view around to something that suits your arguement. Ive repeatedly told you I dont beat kids up, its not my fault that you interpret a smack on the bum as such.

*snip*
I agree with everything you said, its funny watching women trying to reason with a kid, then loosing it when the kid tests them again, they should just let the father step in, its fixed so quickly.

Silly women. Just let the man do everything. Him superior He-Man.


Laws in my country say you can only use reasonable force to discipline your child (that means in their soft little book, a fairy tap probably :rolleyes: ) and anything above the shoulders is assault, which rules out the incredibly effective cuff across the head or ear.
In Sweden you can actually go to jail now, if you hit your kid anywhere when disciplining, those old tough vikings would be rolling in their graves now I think, if they could see whats happenned with their descendants going so soft.

Thank you. That helps to clear up how much violence you think is OK.

Reasonable force is not sufficient violence. Must be able to use unreasonable force against children.

Like blows to the head.

--- just don't put them in the hospital, right?

While I'm not sure feminism has anything to do with child discipline, I do believe that the "expert" opinions of some people on how to raise a child don't hold water.

I'm personally in favour of giving the little bugger a whack if he's out of control. I've seen far too many "parents" who let their child run amok at stores, restaurants and other public places because they're too self absorbed in whatever they have to do and ignore the child completely, or that they don't believe in spanking, or some other non-corporal punishment. Most children learn (quickly) that if all you do is talk, they just have to put up with it, and then go about their merry ways.

If you do have to bring Junior out with you, the very least you can do is make sure that they're reasonably behaved in public. Whatever they're like at home is your business (and your problem).

Feminism also is to blame for those stupid ketchup bags in Burger Kings!

Hang on, what exactly is it, that you view as a traditional family, or rather the myth?

The post you made earlier on "the traditional family". I'm not going to reiterate it , I trust you to know what you wrote.

[QUOTE=The Cat-Tribe]Actually, you only say that when pushed.

No Cat, Ive stated that from the very beginning.

You chortled fondly to another poster about blows to the head.

Oh what a twisted little web we weave when we practice to decieve, eh Cat?
My cuff across the back of a head, more for a kid saying something stupid, or doing something stupid, which you of course wax elequently into nasty viscious blow to the head.

You've indicated beatings with a belt or a wooden spoon are fine.

I didnt say they were fine, I just said thats what I copped when I played up.


Again, you want to say "some violence against kids is good" and never define the point at which violence against kids is bad. That leaves you defending violence against kids. Period.

Oh yeah lets just leave out all the variables and slander me into the bargain, your a class act mate. Discipline isnt violence, try to work out the difference some day.


Or sick of getting beaten so Daddy can feel better about himself. Or cause Daddy has issues.

Your verging on flaming here, again.

You do advocate putting strangers that disagree with your use of violence against children in the hospital.

No, I dont care if they disagree, but physically attacking me or grabbing my kid off me, would probably see that result, yes.

You advocate violence against children to some degree less than would put them in the hospital.

Thats utter rubbish. More slander.

Why am I suddenly reminded of the man who gives his child a couple black eyes and a broken arm and says, "There ... see what you made me do?"
*shudder*

Dont know, why?
Or why are you making such a huge deal of a smack on the bum, why are you dragging this whole issue into an extreme ridiculous arguement?
Better yet, dont bother.

I left this topic open following a moderation decision in the hopes that the battle had ended and civility would return to the topic. I see now that is not going to happen.

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