NationStates Jolt Archive

Im sure anyone reading this knows what im talking about. You see them at the malls, stores, schools, almost anywhere you look. Of course im talking about the counter-culture youth in America (cant speak for the rest of the world). Punk, Goths, Emo kids, the list goes on. It seems that a significant portion of todays youth has a unatural fascination with trying to be different. If we look back through history this would seem to be the ultimate social antithesis. Normally, people would want to fit in with the popular crowd, try not to be different, etc. But all of a sudden, being a outsider became... popular. This is amusing becuase im sure the people who follow these silly trends dont realize that by adhearing to the strict dress, and behavorial codes of their sub-culture of choice is that they are in fact conforming to try to be non-conformist. I find this to be the ultimate irony. The lengths these troubled youth go to to keep up their appearance of a social outsider would put the most fashion conscience socialite to shame. And now it has become more convenient than ever to do this with speciality clothing stores such as Hot Topic (which is owned by the Gap ironically enough) selling attire carefully engineered to keep up the all important apperance of being apart from the crowd. Am I the only one here that finds this disturbing? Its as if the youth of today are being brainwashed by corporate America to buy all of this shit to keep up a fucking appearance.

(I may add more to this later. This is being written for part of a documentary im producing.)

[poll to come later]

Outsiders at mall, schools? :)

This is amusing becuase im sure the people who follow these silly trends dont realize that by adhearing to the strict dress, and behavorial codes of their sub-culture of choice is that they are in fact conforming to try to be non-conformist.

I thought the idea of it was to not conform to mainstream society (particularly, whatever social views their parents happen to hold), rather than not conform to anything.

Outsiders at mall, schools? :)

Not a native English speaker? Ok, its a figure of speach. Not to be taken as someone literally outside, but outside of normal society.

It's silly, but I don't find it particularly disturbing. Every generation has their fads.

I will not conform to the non-comformist ideaology. They are so painfully normal in their desire to be different.

I will not conform to the non-comformist ideaology. They are so painfully normal in their desire to be different.

Agreed. Thats the point I was trying to make.

It´sthe same: Outsiders do not dwell at malls, or schools.

Hmmm...I'm popular with the outcasts. :D Or hated by the labeled, which makes me popular with them, too... Just in a worse way.

Kevin Nash and Scot Hall are at the mall?......hmm I think i'll give that one a miss.

Seriously though, when people are non-conformists because they thinks it's cool rather than having an actual issue with what they would be conforming too.....argh, how stupid is you?!

Seriously though, when people are non-conformists because they thinks it's cool rather than having an actual issue with what they would be conforming too.....argh, how stupid is you?!

Mmhmm. They don't realize that they're conforming to the nonconformists. :rolleyes: Kind of a lose-lose situation. I think people try too hard, honestly. I wear whatever I like and act however I feel. *shrug* Shouldn't be so big of a deal. I think everyone just needs some more self esteem...and support from their family.

It is amusing that people have been conforming to a nonconformist ideal, I agree. What's hilarious and disturbing simultaneously is that I can vouch for the fact that it's even endemic at universities. There is one entire college at my university where all the students think they're nonconformists, but to an outsider such as myself, they're all exactly the same.

Am I the only one here that finds this disturbing? Its as if the youth of today are being brainwashed by corporate America to buy all of this shit to keep up a fucking appearance.

That's nothing new, though. It isn't as though this is a new disturbing development from the insidious brain of Madison Avenue. Ever since the advertising industry began pandering to the youth culture decades ago, the brainwashing of the youth of America has continued.

Sidenote:
I think you should focus a part of your documentary on the sophisticated new methods the corporate advertising industry has been developing to get into the heads of the valuable youth consumerate.

There has been a lot of work done in this area of pandering to youth culture, nonetheless.
A good example is a one-hour documentary by the U.S. public broadcaster PBS for the programme Frontline:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/

"The effect of reduction on the consumer is a need to conform. If you are not fitting into the customer profile of the company that you like, then you need to change yourself so you're more like that profile. And the interesting thing about where it's gotten today is in order to push consumerism to the max, everyone has to have their own thing, right? ... So in America we're individuals. We each make our own consumer choices. I can buy my own jeans in my own size, in my own style. And we stress individuality above all. The odd little ironic twist in it now is we all conform through our nonconformity. We all conform to the template of, "I am me. I buy my Sprite." It doesn't matter which of these sodas you buy because they're all made by Coca-Cola. You just buy the one that is you, that says you... "
- excerpt from the documentary.

I'm from a medium sized community that straddles the Mississppi river on the Iowa Illinois border. 10 years ago I was one of those kids. We didn't have a Hot Topic then. We had thrift stores and lots of ritt dye. I think what you are seeing has less to do with the desire to be different and more to do with a lack of pressure to be normal. I rarely derided the popular kids. Although I have to admitt there was no such thing as the popular kids in my high school. Just cliques co-existing. Popular kids were defined by their clothes not social standing. But then I only went to one high school and have no idea what students from other schools experienced.

For my friends and I it was a matter of ascetics. For most of us it was not rebellion because our parents weren't telling us not to do it. I'm sure there was some rebellion in an indirect manner. Nirvana and nine Inch Nails were telling us that normies were boring and stupid after all. Who wants to be boring and stupid?

"Is it cool to be unpopular?"

Question is ... is it popular to be un-cool? :D

It is amusing that people have been conforming to a nonconformist ideal, I agree. What's hilarious and disturbing simultaneously is that I can vouch for the fact that it's even endemic at universities. There is one entire college at my university where all the students think they're nonconformists, but to an outsider such as myself, they're all exactly the same.



That's nothing new, though. It isn't as though this is a new disturbing development from the insidious brain of Madison Avenue. Ever since the advertising industry began pandering to the youth culture decades ago, the brainwashing of the youth of America has continued.

Sidenote:
I think you should focus a part of your documentary on the sophisticated new methods the corporate advertising industry has been developing to get into the heads of the valuable youth consumerate.

There has been a lot of work done in this area of pandering to youth culture, nonetheless.
A good example is a one-hour documentary by the U.S. public broadcaster PBS for the programme Frontline:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/

"The effect of reduction on the consumer is a need to conform. If you are not fitting into the customer profile of the company that you like, then you need to change yourself so you're more like that profile. And the interesting thing about where it's gotten today is in order to push consumerism to the max, everyone has to have their own thing, right? ... So in America we're individuals. We each make our own consumer choices. I can buy my own jeans in my own size, in my own style. And we stress individuality above all. The odd little ironic twist in it now is we all conform through our nonconformity. We all conform to the template of, "I am me. I buy my Sprite." It doesn't matter which of these sodas you buy because they're all made by Coca-Cola. You just buy the one that is you, that says you... "
- excerpt from the documentary.

Thanks for the suggestions (im about to watch an episode of the show now). Right now the big thing im trying to do is find money to actually make it. Right now I have a little under 20,000$. So naturally this is going to be very low budget. But when its done I plan on releasing it over the Bittorrent network for free.

Now back to topic :D

There's definitely a big disconnect between lower income inner-city high schools and those in the more affluent outer suburbs. For example, my ex-girlfriend lived in the 'burbs while I was from a poorer part of San Francisco and went to a school that the politicians would call 'disadvantaged.' It shocked me to hear the talk of cliques, and the fact that many of the guys carried a skateboard or guitar around because that's what set them apart. Every one of them.

Then, when I saw pictures of her with her school friends, I saw seas of black Atreyu and Nirvana t-shirts, dyed-black hair, and eyeliner. It was like a Hot Topic had been detonated in the hallway and after the dust cleared, they had a bunch of Billy Joe Armstrongs and Avril Lavignes running about.

At my own school, we really had no such thing. There wasn't any real heirarchy, though you could definitely tell who the "punks," "goths," "gangstas," and so on were at my school. For the most part however, these categories had no bearing on social standing. The only real underclass at my school seemed to be those some called the "FOB's," which were recent immigrants from East Asia. That was looked down by the American born Asians, who made up about 60 per cent of the student population.

I attribute a big part of it to the fact that at my school, students from many many different backgrounds were thrown together in one building and forced to coexist, whereas no such thing seems to exist in the outer suburbs. All of my friends came from everywhere. I mean everywhere. I had a friends from Lagos in Nigeria, Shanghai, Hong Kong, South Africa, Russia, and the various ethnically based neighbourhoods of my own city. If my school had been an advertising market, Madison Avenue would have gone insane.

I can't stress the difference between the inner cities and the suburbs enough with respect to this whole pop culture/conformity/social heirarchy thing.

Im sure anyone reading this knows what im talking about. You see them at the malls, stores, schools, almost anywhere you look. Of course im talking about the counter-culture youth in America (cant speak for the rest of the world). Punk, Goths, Emo kids, the list goes on. It seems that a significant portion of todays youth has a unatural fascination with trying to be different. If we look back through history this would seem to be the ultimate social antithesis. Normally, people would want to fit in with the popular crowd, try not to be different, etc. But all of a sudden, being a outsider became... popular. This is amusing becuase im sure the people who follow these silly trends dont realize that by adhearing to the strict dress, and behavorial codes of their sub-culture of choice is that they are in fact conforming to try to be non-conformist. I find this to be the ultimate irony. The lengths these troubled youth go to to keep up their appearance of a social outsider would put the most fashion conscience socialite to shame. And now it has become more convenient than ever to do this with speciality clothing stores such as Hot Topic (which is owned by the Gap ironically enough) selling attire carefully engineered to keep up the all important apperance of being apart from the crowd. Am I the only one here that finds this disturbing? Its as if the youth of today are being brainwashed by corporate America to buy all of this shit to keep up a fucking appearance.

(I may add more to this later. This is being written for part of a documentary im producing.)

[poll to come later]

I defy anyone to say they weren't concerned with popularity at all during their teenage years. I think a certain amount of such concern is healthy. But many kids, especially today, have an unhealthy amount of such concern.

As you might expect, I was a bit of an oddball in high school. In fact, I loved being an oddball and went out of my way to keep myself in that niche. I still do, I suppose.

Why wouldn't it be cool to be "unpopular"? Choosing friends wisely is better than trying to get everyone to be your friend.

Yes and No
at Schools my whole Non chalant(sp) act was so in i was a decent C in Popularity!

My Randomness carried over to NS and as you know im Cool! ;)

Why wouldn't it be cool to be "unpopular"? Choosing friends wisely is better than trying to get everyone to be your friend.

But you see thats the paradox. Seemingly dressing and acting differently is exactly the same as dressing the same and acting the same as everyone else. The only difference is that one group doesnt have any illusions to the fact.

What about kids who dress different but make it their own, or buy second hand stuff, have they been brainwashed?

What about kids who dress different but make it their own, or buy second hand stuff, have they been brainwashed?

Perhaps. To be honest I couldnt answer this question without sitting down and talking to the person in question for at least an hour.

But you see thats the paradox. Seemingly dressing and acting differently is exactly the same as dressing the same and acting the same as everyone else. The only difference is that one group doesnt have any illusions to the fact.

Yep. Then, there are the select few who do exactly what they please. I'm that type of person, and my real friends have always been great.

The key is to do whatever you feel is best for you, not for the general public or student body. And, doing things just because they're different is just stupid. Rebellion is great, but only when used properly. If you do it just to be different, it's trendy.

I consider myself 'un-cool' in school now. I don't really care about popularity all that much anyhow. Besides, you can look at what I see on the 'net at school daily.... FCC reports, here, more fcc reports, the weather ( including the impossible to read NWS storm reports), maps, occasionally my friends site, news, well you get the idea. Another thing is politics, I live in redneck country, and I am one of the few liberals at the school. If im poed I got my blog instead, wonder how many of the stupid folk have a blog at our school? I'm sure I can count them on one hand!

*back to topic*

My oddball self is that I watch PBS and try to listen to NPR if possible. Though I am a metalhead, I am not quite a goth. I am more of a nerd. Oh yeah, I also am interested into trains, not huntin' or fishin' like most at my school are.

Yep. Then, there are the select few who do exactly what they please. I'm that type of person, and my real friends have always been great.

The key is to do whatever you feel is best for you, not for the general public or student body. And, doing things just because they're different is just stupid. Rebellion is great, but only when used properly. If you do it just to be different, it's trendy.

Ah, but are you absolutely sure that the corporate media hasnt influenced you? Ok forget that im sounding too much like a conspiracy theorist... But yeah, if you do what your gut tells you to do in the end youll turn out all right. And as an interesting side note, I feel like since I became an internet junkie ive become more "down to earth" as the saying goes. This is probably because I watch far less tv than I used to.

Ah, but are you absolutely sure that the corporate media hasnt influenced you? Ok forget that im sounding too much like a conspiracy theorist... But yeah, if you do what your gut tells you to do in the end youll turn out all right. And as an interesting side note, I feel like since I became an internet junkie ive become more "down to earth" as the saying goes. This is probably because I watch far less tv than I used to.

Haha. No corporations for me, thanks! I wear whatever I please, listen to what I like, and eat what I want. Oh, and I've stopped watching TV, for the most part. I only watch a few shows!

See, this is exactly why I spend as much time naked as I can. :)

See, this is exactly why I spend as much time naked as I can. :)

Sleeping naked is the only way to sleep.

See, this is exactly why I spend as much time naked as I can. :)

Im sure youre quite cold! Or sunburned....

Im sure youre quite cold! Or sunburned....

Can't it be both?

i look so normal i'm different.

My favorite statement about fashion today is an example of a trip to a local Hot Topix store.
There, you can find a t-shirt that says:

"You laugh cause Im different, I laugh becuase youre all the same."

Sold in stacks, varying in size.

For 19.99, you too can express how very different you are, just like everyone else!

Im sure youre quite cold! Or sunburned....

I tend to run around a lot. It keeps me warm and out of direct sunlight for long stretches of time. :)

My favorite statement about fashion today is an example of a trip to a local Hot Topix store.
There, you can find a t-shirt that says:

"You laugh cause Im different, I laugh becuase youre all the same."

Sold in stacks, varying in size.

For 19.99, you too can express how very different you are, just like everyone else!

Hot Topic? Talk about trendy...

Ah, but are you absolutely sure that the corporate media hasnt influenced you? Ok forget that im sounding too much like a conspiracy theorist... But yeah, if you do what your gut tells you to do in the end youll turn out all right. And as an interesting side note, I feel like since I became an internet junkie ive become more "down to earth" as the saying goes. This is probably because I watch far less tv than I used to.

Are you impling that the kids who shop at the gap and old navy aren't? Or that it's possible to escape that influence at all? I make most of my clothes now. But I still have to buy fabric and patterns that some one else picked to put in the fabric store. Even when i use 30 year old curtains to make my dresses.

Are you impling that the kids who shop at the gap and old navy aren't? Or that it's possible to escape that influence at all? I make most of my clothes now. But I still have to buy fabric and patterns that some one else picked to put in the fabric store. Even when i use 30 year old curtains to make my dresses.

Not at all. The difference is that one group isnt dissilusioned about how they dress.

My favorite statement about fashion today is an example of a trip to a local Hot Topix store.
There, you can find a t-shirt that says:

"You laugh cause Im different, I laugh becuase youre all the same."

Sold in stacks, varying in size.

For 19.99, you too can express how very different you are, just like everyone else!

When taking pictures of the things they sold in my local Hot Topic (Mall of Georgia to be exact) for my documentary they asked what it was for. I told them that I was making a movie about how coporate america is packaging rebelliousness and selling it to the masses of disenfranchised teens. Then I said something about them being owned by the Gap and they had mall security throw me out... Now I have to find another store to do the filming. And to find people to interview...

When taking pictures of the things they sold in my local Hot Topic (Mall of Georgia to be exact) for my documentary they asked what it was for. I told them that I was making a movie about how coporate america is packaging rebelliousness and selling it to the masses of disenfranchised teens. Then I said something about them being owned by the Gap and they had mall security throw me out... Now I have to find another store to do the filming. And to find people to interview...

Haha, they had the security guards throw you out for speaking the truth? Sounds about right.

Haha, they had the security guards throw you out for speaking the truth? Sounds about right.

It was quite embarassing to say the least. I think everyone thought I was shoplifter. They told the guards I was "causing a disturbance". And I thought this was america...

It was quite embarassing to say the least. I think everyone thought I was shoplifter. They told the guards I was "causing a disturbance". And I thought this was america...

Well, it is America. That's how things have always been in this country, believe it or not. Wonderful, 'innit?

bump

Kevin Nash and Scot Hall are at the mall?......hmm I think i'll give that one a miss.


hehehehehehe!

I can't take this thread seriously now I've just seen that :D

Kevin Nash and Scot Hall are at the mall?......hmm I think i'll give that one a miss.
[/B]
Really razor Ramon! :eek:

Im sure anyone reading this knows what im talking about. You see them at the malls, stores, schools, almost anywhere you look. Of course im talking about the counter-culture youth in America (cant speak for the rest of the world). Punk, Goths, Emo kids, the list goes on. It seems that a significant portion of todays youth has a unatural fascination with trying to be different. If we look back through history this would seem to be the ultimate social antithesis. Normally, people would want to fit in with the popular crowd, try not to be different, etc. But all of a sudden, being a outsider became... popular. This is amusing becuase im sure the people who follow these silly trends dont realize that by adhearing to the strict dress, and behavorial codes of their sub-culture of choice is that they are in fact conforming to try to be non-conformist. I find this to be the ultimate irony. The lengths these troubled youth go to to keep up their appearance of a social outsider would put the most fashion conscience socialite to shame. And now it has become more convenient than ever to do this with speciality clothing stores such as Hot Topic (which is owned by the Gap ironically enough) selling attire carefully engineered to keep up the all important apperance of being apart from the crowd. Am I the only one here that finds this disturbing? Its as if the youth of today are being brainwashed by corporate America to buy all of this shit to keep up a fucking appearance.

(I may add more to this later. This is being written for part of a documentary im producing.)

[poll to come later]

South Park summed this up best when Stan wanted to become a Goth after getting dumped, "If you want to be one of the non-conformists you just have to dress like us, hang out with us, and listen to the same music as us." :D Yes, extremely ironic but believe it or not the irony is only superficial. In the end they are still conforming one way or another, just a different superficial style. I would just like to make something clear, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with conformity. On the macro scale it is what holds any society together with the true non-conformists being criminals. On the micro scale it makes daily life the path of least resistance. That said, there has always been some allure to volunteering to be the pariah. What is happening here is that modern culture, which once supported something else, is now completely shifted to glorifying the pariah, something that in practice just makes them "normal" and no longer the outcast. I suppose that too contains a hint of irony. To sum things up, this is nothing new. Personally though I was always annoyed by sub-cultures, something about them always irked me a little.

Now on to this corporate brainwashing business. One thing that you seem to fail to understand is the role consumers’ play in a corporation. Corporations did not start this trend, as someone else here said in the days before Hot Topic people where dyeing second hand clothes. What you must realize is that if people stop buying from Gap, the corporation has two choices; one, stay the same and ride it out at the risk of going under the profit line or two, adapt to a changing trend by capitalizing on the new market (thus Hot Topic.) This is, believe it or not, an example of the consumer evoking a change in a corporation. The same can be seen effecting things like the music industry where literally thousands of groups and artists don't make the cut but publishers will still back them in the hope of at least ONE breaking through and paying for the rest while turning a profit (the smart one would then market as many "clones" as the market will bare). It is still based on what the consumer WANTS to buy, advertising only lets people know it is being marketed. If the consumer was a mindless drone then EVERYONE of those thousands of failed bands would be sold, the gap wouldn't need Hot Topic, etc, etc, etc... It is generally NOT in the best interest of a corporation to actually drive a new trend, it is simply a matter of risk. If people aren’t going to buy your product you just blew millions on marketing.

I graduated from high school two years ago. I was apparently part of the popular group although I never actually realized it.

It was quite embarassing to say the least. I think everyone thought I was shoplifter. They told the guards I was "causing a disturbance". And I thought this was america...
haha the evil GAP corporation pwns you! :p

My favorite statement about fashion today is an example of a trip to a local Hot Topix store.
There, you can find a t-shirt that says:

"You laugh cause Im different, I laugh becuase youre all the same."

Sold in stacks, varying in size.

For 19.99, you too can express how very different you are, just like everyone else!

My friend and I once decided to make a shirt that said, "You laugh because I'm a pyro; I laugh because I'm burning down your house."

Nope! Look at me! ;)