NationStates Jolt Archive

Now, in all honesty, could you foresee yourself committing suicide? Excluding mental disorders, suicide generally is spurred by periods of great personal hardship. Could you ever see yourself putting a bullet through your head or taking a blade to your wrists or downing a glass of some poisonous product with the full intent of taking your own life? Yes, I know the act of your own suicide may depend on various issues, but go with me here.....discuss....

Nope. But, it's not my problem if someone else does.

No-I cannot see myself ever commiting suicide. I can see myself changing my identity and disappearing, but I'll never kill myself.

Now, in all honesty, could you foresee yourself committing suicide? Excluding mental disorders, suicide generally is spurred by periods of great personal hardship. Could you ever see yourself putting a bullet through your head or taking a blade to your wrists or downing a glass of some poisonous product with the full intent of taking your own life? Yes, I know the act of your own suicide may depend on various issues, but go with me here.....discuss....

I voted for option #1, though I wish this was a checkbox poll, as it's also absurdly selfish.

Case in point: Kurt Cobain. Idiot pulls a Hemmingway and leaves his wife and child. Selfish coward.

Nope.

I believe it's cowardly and selfish, as your depriving thoes around you of your company, and no matter how bad or depressed you feel, there is always going to be someone there who will miss you.

I would never even think of killing myself, hell I just posted about how I want to be immortal!

I've thought about it several times in my life, but I never did ( obviously ) and am I ever glad that I didn't! :D

No-I cannot see myself ever commiting suicide. I can see myself changing my identity and disappearing, but I'll never kill myself.
I would probably do that as well.. or maybe fake my own death, but I wouldn't kill my death.

I would probably do that as well.. or maybe fake my own death, but I wouldn't kill my death.

I wish I could kill my death.... ^.^

I'd do this too. Great idea.

I've thought about it several times in my life, but I never did ( obviously ) and am I ever glad that I didn't! :D

I have a feeling there are several people that are glad you didnt.

Bah, you didn't have an option for people who think it's a terribly cowardly act, but still know they have a chance of doing it.

It's selfish. You get rid of your own misery, but dump it on everyone who cares about you (and no matter what you think, there is someone).

I briefly thought about it around 13, when teenage angst begins to set in. Then I quickly came to, realized that it was idiotic, and went on my merry way.

I would if I got Alzheimer's Disease

If I had ebola, I would kill myself. Really, I don't think there are too many worse deaths than one that involves your skin sloughing off and shitting out your intestinal lining, or vomiting it up only to die from a stroke as a result of dead skin cells collecting in your brain.

I do show a mark of respect for those who use their bodies as weapons against a superior enemy, but as for those teenagers and folks of other ages that can't handle life, they are the cowards.

Death before dishonor is a soldiering concept (as is fighting to the death). Why risk capture and humuliation when the cyanide tablet shall grand the taker the most wonderful and unfinished sleep? An even more honorable method would be a pistol to the head like Hitler's suicide.

Case in point: Kurt Cobain. Idiot pulls a Hemmingway and leaves his wife and child. Selfish coward.
not to mention his loyal fans...

I thought about it at the age of 14.... It was then when I had the most amazing revelation in the world!!!

Its not your fault that your life is shitty.. Its those around you that make it that way. And if its because of depression for being picked on or whatever.. Youll just notice after awhile that its not worth wasting your life over a group of idiots

Now if its because of debt or something.. then your on your own

I think it's more selfish than almost anything else you can do, and I only say "almost" because I haven't thought it out carefully enough to rule out the possibility of exception. Even if I didn't think so, though, I couldn't imagine doing it unless I was in great pain from a terminal illness and my family agreed with me. Even then I suppose it's iffy.

I came across these very strong feelings when I found out that, several years before I met him, my boyfriend was extremely depressed and almost tried to kill himself once. Before that point I thought the same way but didn't have such an emotional attachment to it. By committing suicide, you not only hurt those in your life but you have to assume that nothing better will ever come in your future.

Yes. Right now, the only people that would be truly hurt are my parents, and I think they quite deserve it. They never behaved like they cared in the first place. I do have myself to live for, and I continue to reason with myself quite well. I'm pretty sure I'll make it through the years.

I can't imagine a situation in which I would commit suicide - I'm very fond of my own survival. However, I'm not morally opposed to it or anything.

not to mention his loyal fans...

yeah. I wasn't even going to get into him having buckets of dough, people wanting to meet him everywhere he went, and women swoon whenever he'd come around. The man had it all, and decided it was too hard. Never mind how he set a lousy example for teens and kids.

yeah. I wasn't even going to get into him having buckets of dough, people wanting to meet him everywhere he went, and women swoon whenever he'd come around. The man had it all, and decided it was too hard. Never mind how he set a lousy example for teens and kids.
im convinced that he was just really really high

Personally, well aside from a duty to maintain your life even in those instances where it is painful, I don't think I have the courage required to go through with it.

As a side note, I disagree with the notion that suicide is wrong because it is selfish. Selfishness is used to describe those people who take more than their share. If you legitemately do believe (which most suicidal people do) that you can contribute nothing to the world, and are in fact drawing more resources than you contribute, then it would be selfish of you not to kill yourself. No, the real reason to oppose it is because it is in all circumstances inherently irrational. In those circumstances where self-inflicted death would be rational, I'm not really seeing how it qualifies as suicide.

Personally, well aside from a duty to maintain your life even in those instances where it is painful, I don't think I have the courage required to go through with it.

As a side note, I disagree with the notion that suicide is wrong because it is selfish. Selfishness is used to describe those people who take more than their share. If you legitemately do believe (which most suicidal people do) that you can contribute nothing to the world, and are in fact drawing more resources than you contribute, then it would be selfish of you not to kill yourself. No, the real reason to oppose it is because it is in all circumstances inherently irrational. In those circumstances where self-inflicted death would be rational, I'm not really seeing how it qualifies as suicide.

I thought peopled killed themselves because they wanted a way out? Alot of people that are suicidal have to work with high amounts of depression and pain, they dont want to hurt anybody, and since they dont see a real way out, they just end their lives to end the pain

Could I ever commit suicide?

Well lets see how finals go.

I attempted suicide twice, (Im Bi-polar) it isn't a very pleasant thing to go through. The one thought that runs through your mind as they grab you away is Why wont they let me. It is one of the most painful expierences I think a family can expierence. Its truly a horrible thing to go through and I wouldn't wish it on the worst of my enemies.

But I totally disagree with the notion that it is selfish, though I see your point. Anyone who does it is sick, or high. There's no selfish or in between, those are the only two choices. You don't just get up one day and decide you want to kill yourself, it takes time till it builds up...more and more until you break.

The only thing I remember about that tragic time is simply crying until I went to sleep several hours away.

(Apologies for spelling errors, it is very late here)

Suicide, no, but since I'm so helpful I'm willing to help render assisted suicides.

Now, in all honesty, could you foresee yourself committing suicide? Excluding mental disorders, suicide generally is spurred by periods of great personal hardship. Could you ever see yourself putting a bullet through your head or taking a blade to your wrists or downing a glass of some poisonous product with the full intent of taking your own life? Yes, I know the act of your own suicide may depend on various issues, but go with me here.....discuss....

As things stand, no.
If I were to commit suicide it would have to be because my life had changed radically from the way it is now, making me a very different person. I can't predict how that changed person would act.

I thought peopled killed themselves because they wanted a way out? Alot of people that are suicidal have to work with high amounts of depression and pain, they dont want to hurt anybody, and since they dont see a real way out, they just end their lives to end the pain

Well yes. The reason why suicidal people are in pain is because they generally feel as if they lead worthless lives. They feel, quite literally, that a world where they don't exist is a better one than one in which they do exist. That being the case, it's not really selfishness that motivates them.

Nope.

I believe it's cowardly and selfish, as your depriving thoes around you of your company, and no matter how bad or depressed you feel, there is always going to be someone there who will miss you.

I would never even think of killing myself, hell I just posted about how I want to be immortal!

Just wanted to say that I don't think cowardice comes into it in the case of mental illness. Your perspective can be so fucked up that you don't actually realise you have a choice, and you have to know you have a choice to be a coward.

Personally, well aside from a duty to maintain your life even in those instances where it is painful, I don't think I have the courage required to go through with it.

As a side note, I disagree with the notion that suicide is wrong because it is selfish. Selfishness is used to describe those people who take more than their share. If you legitemately do believe (which most suicidal people do) that you can contribute nothing to the world, and are in fact drawing more resources than you contribute, then it would be selfish of you not to kill yourself. No, the real reason to oppose it is because it is in all circumstances inherently irrational. In those circumstances where self-inflicted death would be rational, I'm not really seeing how it qualifies as suicide.

Hmmm I agree that it would not be selfish if that was your reasoning.
However, what if your reasoning was that you were angry and wanted to hurt people with your death? That would be selfish.

Hmmm I agree that it would not be selfish if that was your reasoning.
However, what if your reasoning was that you were angry and wanted to hurt people with your death? That would be selfish.

I suppose there are people who do that, and in that case, they would be selfish (although I think they are acting more out of wrath than selfishness, to be honest). However, I can think of plenty of ways to get vengeance on others while still living to enjoy it.

Same here. I'm not by any means suggesting it's a good idea.

Forsee suicide? No. No reason to, I should be smarter than that.

If I get into a really shitty situation. There's always people around us that can help or at least, you can move to somewhere better.

My family for generations had been there and done that, through wars and famines. If it sucks badly, move, don't stick around till it gets worse.

Do I see myself doing it? No. Could it happen? Yes.
I've tried a couple of times. Like a previous poster, I'm bipolar. While I'm currently glad to be alive, one never knows where those mood swings will take you.
To those poor ignorant self-righteous souls; I hope you never have to find out how it really feels to seriously want to remove yourself from the world. But surely it doesn't take too terribly much imagination to put yourself in someone elses shoes.

I thought 1 and C choices were Sound but yes i could go for it!

Now, in all honesty, could you foresee yourself committing suicide? Excluding mental disorders, suicide generally is spurred by periods of great personal hardship. Could you ever see yourself putting a bullet through your head or taking a blade to your wrists or downing a glass of some poisonous product with the full intent of taking your own life? Yes, I know the act of your own suicide may depend on various issues, but go with me here.....discuss....

I can see myself accidentally causing my own death. Probably in a horrific and grotesquely amusing way. But I don't think I'd ever deliberately kill myself.

Life is just too damn wacky. :)

I voted for option #1, though I wish this was a checkbox poll, as it's also absurdly selfish.

Case in point: Kurt Cobain. Idiot pulls a Hemmingway and leaves his wife and child. Selfish coward.

Good thing nobody piles futher insults on the situation to make matters any worse for Cobain's wife and child.

Nobody would be selfish and cowardly enough to insult a dead guy gratuituously.

Nope.

I believe it's cowardly and selfish, as your depriving thoes around you of your company, and no matter how bad or depressed you feel, there is always going to be someone there who will miss you.

I would never even think of killing myself, hell I just posted about how I want to be immortal!

Yeah. Mental illness is so damn cowardly and selfish.

Anyone with severe depression or other mental illnesses should just be put out of their misery. :eek:

yeah. I wasn't even going to get into him having buckets of dough, people wanting to meet him everywhere he went, and women swoon whenever he'd come around. The man had it all, and decided it was too hard. Never mind how he set a lousy example for teens and kids.


Yeah, he was rich and famous -- so he couldn't possibly have had any problems whatsoever.

Pray tell, Doctor Markreich, in your history of treating Mr. Cobain did he never show any signs of depression or mental illness?

I had also heard that Cobain had Crohn's Disease, which can be extremely painful. And you only have to listen to the lyrics to get the idea that he wasn't particuliarly emotionally healthy. Writers tend to have the highest incidence of mental illness of any artists.

Suicide? I've attempted it a few times myself. closest i got was diving headfirst off the second floor of my highschool off a crosswalk (or something like it). Got cold feet a few moments later and backed away.

Anyone with severe depression or other mental illnesses should just be put out of their misery. :eek:
If manic depression counts, then that probably includes me. :(

If manic depression counts, then that probably includes me. :(

It would. And whether manic depression counts or not, it includes me as well.

I hope the irony and sarcasm of my statement was clear.

Suicide? I've attempted it a few times myself. closest i got was diving headfirst off the second floor of my highschool off a crosswalk (or something like it). Got cold feet a few moments later and backed away.I'm glad you got cold feet. :fluffle:
Be of good cheer, Cat was being sarcastic in that last post.

I'm glad you got cold feet. :fluffle:
Be of good cheer, Cat was being sarcastic in that last post.
lol, thanks. :fluffle:

hey, weren't you supposed to be scared off when i announced that i had the hots for you? ;) :D lol

lol, thanks. :fluffle:

hey, weren't you supposed to be scared off when i announced that i had the hots for you? ;) :D lol

I wasn't scared off!
With the move and getting settled, I just haven't been online much. I was only on a couple of hours the day I got the internet back on and apparently no one missed me. :( My feelings weren't terribly hurt, since it was a different time of day from my usual NS time.

I wasn't scared off!
With the move and getting settled, I just haven't been online much. I was only on a couple of hours the day I got the internet back on and apparently no one missed me. :( My feelings weren't terribly hurt, since it was a different time of day from my usual NS time.
Awwww.... :(

I did think about you some times while you were away though :) :fluffle:

There are definitely situations in which suicide is justified - an obvious one is when the alternative is a painful and drawn out death. I don't think suicide in that case could be caled selfish or cowardly since you are sparing your friends and relatives the pain of seing you suffer, and personally I don't believe that anyone who can calmly face his own death is a coward.

Commiting suicide because you can't cope with your life as it is, on the other hand, seems silly to me. I think that as long as you're alive and in good health you should be able to find a life that works for you.

There are the option of joining a monastery and taking a vow of silence or something similar. Actually, I think a lot of people could benefit from that sort of life, probably myself included. If you really can't cope emotionally with our society, I don't think that means you can't live a happy life outside of society.

So I think that commiting suicide can be very selfish or cowardly, but it doesn't have to be.

Dont try using a Power Drill some Muppet did and missed his Brain 3 times!

Another Clown Tried to hang himself off a Tree branch, snapped and he broke both his legs.
Later the same guy tried to lop his head off with a Chainsaw,he missed the jugular and the chainsaw got stuck in his spine he didnt die probably parralised though!

Dont try using a Power Drill some Muppet did and missed his Brain 3 times!

Another Clown Tried to hang himself off a Tree branch, snapped and he broke both his legs.
Later the same guy tried to lop his head off with a Chainsaw,he missed the jugular and the chainsaw got stuck in his spine he didnt die probably parralised though!
jeez, do we really need to know that?! :(

I remember serioesly considering suicide some times in my life.

And by serioesly considering i mean i had the date on which i was going to do it, i had all the extension cables i needed to get a plugged in working tv into the bath, and was thinking of who i would leave my stuff to.
Then my brother set a lounge on fire, got my mum crying and angry, and i decided thta to do it now would be incredibly selfish and that my mother could not handle the emotional strain, so i put it off.
To this day im (obvioesly) suicide free.

jeez, do we really need to know that?! :(
Yes!
Some people commit Suicide or at least try because they think they are hopeless.

But what do we do with those that go to extraordinary lenghts and fail?
How do they feel about it?

Comeon kiddies play nice.

If someone was dying a horrible and painful, not to mention, certain death from, say, terminal cancer, I think it should be their choice to end it all as painlessly as possible.

Yeah, he was rich and famous -- so he couldn't possibly have had any problems whatsoever.

Pray tell, Doctor Markreich, in your history of treating Mr. Cobain did he never show any signs of depression or mental illness?

I'm sure the thousands of people that mourned his passing and the many that still acclaim him more than make up for my calling him a coward.

Doesn't really matter, now does it? The man was rich beyond avarice, and had the makings of a very, very good future career and life.
*He could get meds. He could get help. Instead, he sucked on a shotgun, leaving his wife (not the most stable character, either) and child behind.

Many, many people have problems in this world and *don't* kill themselves. While I believe he had the RIGHT to take his own life, I think he's a coward for doing it (as is anyone who commits suicide).

I had also heard that Cobain had Crohn's Disease, which can be extremely painful. And you only have to listen to the lyrics to get the idea that he wasn't particuliarly emotionally healthy. Writers tend to have the highest incidence of mental illness of any artists.

Yep. And he used heroin to medicate himself, while meanwhile suffering from depression....because no doctor could help him no matter what they tried. That certainly didn't help. To complicate things, his marriage to Courtney Love was rumoured to have been falling apart (friends close to the couple recall that they were constantly arguing, and they began to spend more and more time away from eachother deliberately.) To top all that off, he's in the media spotlight the whole time.

Good thing nobody piles futher insults on the situation to make matters any worse for Cobain's wife and child.

Nobody would be selfish and cowardly enough to insult a dead guy gratuituously.

Yeah. It'd be TRAGIC if someone did that to point out that the man wasn't a hero, and that others should not follow his example. :rolleyes:

No fear there, I insulted him while he was alive, too. After he appeared on MTV Unplugged and put on the "woe is me" schtick.

I'm sure the thousands of people that mourned his passing and the many that still acclaim him more than make up for my calling him a coward.

Perhaps. But you claim that him leaving behind his daughter is selfish; Is it any less selfish or rather, cruel, to call a dead man a "coward" while his daughter still lives? How does she feel about that, I wonder...

He could get meds. He could get help.

He tried. They couldn't help him. His "medication" was heroin. It was the only painkiller he found strong enough to help him.

Yeah. It'd be TRAGIC if someone did that to point out that the man wasn't a hero, and that others should not follow his example. :rolleyes:


Nobody is calling him a hero. Nobody thinks he set a good example. The man had mental and physical problems, which were the underlying cause of his suicide. Coupled with the pressure in his everyday life, which none of the band members were really prepared for, as their fame was so unexpected. What would you do in his situation?

im convinced that he was just really really high
He was doped up enough that he would have been unconscious. Not to mention that they didn't find anyone's prints on the trigger, let alone his own and he wasn't wearing gloves when he died.

Plus the fact that he was halfway through changing his will, if he really intended to take his own life, he would have done that first and then done it. Then you have the suicide note which doesn't sound like a suicide note until the bit in the different handwriting.

Perhaps. But you claim that him leaving behind his daughter is selfish; Is it any less selfish or rather, cruel, to call a dead man a "coward" while his daughter still lives? How does she feel about that, I wonder.../QUOTE]

I'm looking at it from the POV that if ANYONE hears what I have to say that *is* considering suicide, and it makes them think about it, it's a good thing.

Further: then I have to wait until his children's children are all dead? I don't think so. Else 95% of the junk on the news channels needs to go.

[QUOTE=Kanabia]He tried. They couldn't help him. His "medication" was heroin. It was the only painkiller he found strong enough to help him.

I'm not saying that he didn't try. I'm saying he obviously didn't try hard enough.

He was doped up enough that he would have been unconscious. Not to mention that they didn't find anyone's prints on the trigger, let alone his own and he wasn't wearing gloves when he died.

Plus the fact that he was halfway through changing his will, if he really intended to take his own life, he would have done that first and then done it. Then you have the suicide note which doesn't sound like a suicide note until the bit in the different handwriting.

Ah, I wasn't going to get into that ;)

Perhaps he went incognito like Jim Morrison? :p

Nobody is calling him a hero. Nobody thinks he set a good example. The man had mental and physical problems, which were the underlying cause of his suicide. Coupled with the pressure in his everyday life, which none of the band members were really prepared for, as their fame was so unexpected. What would you do in his situation?

Glam article, par excellance:

Torment of rock hero Cobain
It is 10 years since the brilliant but troubled Nirvana singer, Kurt Cobain, shot himself. BBC News Online looks back at his life.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/3568909.stm

"For a generation of rock fans, it's our very own JFK moment."
BBC 6 Music's Mark Sutherland

What would I do? What most of the planet does, and what I do: get up every morning and do my job. Life is what you make of it.

He wasn't a man. He was a boy that didn't grow up and take responsibility for his own life.

I'm looking at it from the POV that if ANYONE hears what I have to say that *is* considering suicide, and it makes them think about it, it's a good thing.

Calling suicide cowardly is counterproductive and does *not* help things. It reinforces their negative self esteem and makes them feel all the more worthless for even considering it. I've been there. I know.

Further: then I have to wait until his children's children are all dead? I don't think so. Else 95% of the junk on the news channels needs to go.

It does :p

I'm not saying that he didn't try. I'm saying he obviously didn't try hard enough.

Ehh, I'm going off the top of my head here so this is pretty vague, but I do believe he did pay to see one of the top specialists in the field...In LA, I think...may have been Texas, and they couldn't help him. If someone with his financial resources can't find help, who would be able to in that situation?

Glam article, par excellance:

I'll rephrase- He is idolised by many for his music, but I don't think anyone in their right mind really thinks that his death is particularly heroic.

What would I do? What most of the planet does, and what I do: get up every morning and do my job. Life is what you make of it.

Yes, but I figure that's easy for you to say, because you probably aren't suffering from mental illness and Crohn's disease.

He wasn't a man. He was a boy that didn't grow up and take responsibility for his own life.

Perhaps. Again, easy to say...

If I was ever considering taking my own life, I'd see to it that I took others with me.

I'll rephrase- He is idolised by many for his music, but I don't think anyone in their right mind really thinks that his death is particularly heroic.

Okay, but that's not how I remember the coverage:

http://www.thedailyeasternnews.com/news/2005/04/07/TheVerge/Pop-Shots.something.In.The.Way.you.Know.Youre.Right-916111.shtml

"Eleven years ago Tuesday, Nirvana frontman and grunge posterboy Kurt Cobain was found dead in his home. The surrounding media coverage made suicide seem heroic and tragic. Cobain became the patron saint of depressed teenagers around the world."

...sorry, but I found all the candlelight vigils and wailing about this guy killing himself to be stupid.

Yes, but I figure that's easy for you to say, because you probably aren't suffering from mental illness and Crohn's disease.

Perhaps. Again, easy to say...

Everyone suffers in this life, on some level. I have my own cross to bear, as I'm sure you do, too.

It's my opinion that all suicides are cowards, and Cobain, Hemmingway, and Sylvia Plath especially are, as they were artistically gifted *and* famous: they had a DUTY to society to do better. Especially when one has a spouse and child(ren).

Okay, but that's not how I remember the coverage:
The surrounding media coverage made suicide seem heroic and tragic.

Heh. Just the comment of some idiot journalist.

Everyone suffers in this life, on some level. I have my own cross to bear, as I'm sure you do, too.

It's my opinion that all suicides are cowards, and Cobain, Hemmingway, and Sylvia Plath especially are, as they were artistically gifted *and* famous: they had a DUTY to society to do better. Especially when one has a spouse and child(ren).
*Shrugs* Well, it's your opinion and i'm not going to change it. Just be careful with the "suicide is cowardice" thing. It can really hit a raw nerve in suicidal people.

Could i kill myself?

i can imagine a situation where it would be a likely outcome

Calling suicide cowardly is counterproductive and does *not* help things. It reinforces their negative self esteem and makes them feel all the more worthless for even considering it. I've been there. I know.

Eh? What's that? Telling people that you're an idiot if you kill yourself is going to reinforce negative self esteem?
If so, then all criticism is bad, no matter how deplorable the act. Sorry, I can't accept that.

It does :p

Well, at least we agree on something.

Ehh, I'm going off the top of my head here so this is pretty vague, but I do believe he did pay to see one of the top specialists in the field...In LA, I think...may have been Texas, and they couldn't help him. If someone with his financial resources can't find help, who would be able to in that situation?

That's an excellent question. I've obviously not got all the answers. If I did, I'd be a whole lot richer right now.
So: either he didn't try hard enough, or there may have been no "cure" or help for him, so he'd have to go on living with whatever his problem was. Like people do in wheelchairs. Or that have bad cases of psoriasis. Or are lame. Or lost body parts. Sorry, I still think he took a cowardly way to resolve his problem.

Heh. Just the comment of some idiot journalist.

It counters your post... and, it paints EXACTLY the coverage I recall from that time. (Besides, aren't they ALL idiot journalists?)

*Shrugs* Well, it's your opinion and i'm not going to change it. Just be careful with the "suicide is cowardice" thing. It can really hit a raw nerve in suicidal people.

Fair enough.

Eh? What's that? Telling people that you're an idiot if you kill yourself is going to reinforce negative self esteem?
If so, then all criticism is bad, no matter how deplorable the act. Sorry, I can't accept that.

Yeah, I know where you're coming from but it's a difficult situation. I mean, you can't imagine someone talking to a psychiatrist and mentioning that they were thinking of suicide, and being shouted back at "You Idiot! That's the cowards way out!" Because when depressed like that, that's not something you really want to hear at all. If you're ever confronted with someone you know considering suicide, don't call them a coward. That drives them further into the ground and in their mental state, it might even drive them to commit suicide because they feel even more useless and pathetic, (Remember, they aren't thinking straight, here) or at the least cause more psychological harm. Be supportive and suggest they get professional help. It's the best thing you can do...believe me.

Yeah, I know where you're coming from but it's a difficult situation. I mean, you can't imagine someone talking to a psychiatrist and mentioning that they were thinking of suicide, and being shouted back at "You Idiot! That's the cowards way out!" Because when depressed like that, that's not something you really want to hear at all. If you're ever confronted with someone you know considering suicide, don't call them a coward. That drives them further into the ground and in their mental state, it might even drive them to commit suicide because they feel even more useless and pathetic, (Remember, they aren't thinking straight, here) or at the least cause more psychological harm. Be supportive and suggest they get professional help. It's the best thing you can do...believe me.

Agreed. There is a big difference between calling a suicide a coward and someone THINKING about it a coward. I'd point out all the Kurt, Ernest & co MISSED and all the harm they caused others by doing what they did.

It counters your post... and, it paints EXACTLY the coverage I recall from that time. (Besides, aren't they ALL idiot journalists?)

Hmm, well, fair point. I was only 9 when it happened, so I don't recall the media response. I got into Nirvana years later (I used to hate them for being popular. lol).

And yes, yes they are :p

Hmm, well, fair point. I was only 9 when it happened, so I don't recall the media response. I got into Nirvana years later (I used to hate them for being popular. lol).

And yes, yes they are :p

I was in college... I think it was junior year. It was *everywhere*. :eek:

I was in college... I think it was junior year. It was *everywhere*. :eek:
Well, music is dead now, so it balances out :p

Yeah. It'd be TRAGIC if someone did that to point out that the man wasn't a hero, and that others should not follow his example. :rolleyes:

No fear there, I insulted him while he was alive, too. After he appeared on MTV Unplugged and put on the "woe is me" schtick.

Pretty short range of options you have there "coward and selfish" or "hero."

How about tragic?

I definitely remember Mr. Cobain's tendency to say "hey, everybody, be like me." And those billboards saying "Kill yourself, Kurt did" were over the line. :rolleyes:

Just because you were a jerk when Mr. Cobain was alive, doesn't make pissing on this grave any more acceptable.

Making fun of dead people that had mental problems at the expense of their family is still selfish and cowardly.

Spend a few days at a psych ward. Learn a little. Develop understanding and sensitivity.

I couldn't bear to leave the person I love, no matter how bad things got.

I'm sure the thousands of people that mourned his passing and the many that still acclaim him more than make up for my calling him a coward.

Doesn't really matter, now does it? The man was rich beyond avarice, and had the makings of a very, very good future career and life.
*He could get meds. He could get help. Instead, he sucked on a shotgun, leaving his wife (not the most stable character, either) and child behind.

Many, many people have problems in this world and *don't* kill themselves. While I believe he had the RIGHT to take his own life, I think he's a coward for doing it (as is anyone who commits suicide).

Thank you for illustrating your complete ignorance of depression and mental illness.

Severe depression and other mental illness is not determined simply by whether you have money or problems in life.

Rich people with lots of good things in their life can get depression -- just like they can get the flu, or cancer, or break a leg. It is an illness, not just poor decision making.

Guess what, meds don't always help.

I never said that suicide was a good choice or even a rational choice by Mr. Cobain. I doubt either of us knows why he committed suicide. I do know he had problems with drug addiction and mental illness.

He was not a hero for committing suicide. He was a human being with problems. Show a little damn compassion!!

And, saying you are all concerned about his family, and then making fun of him and taking swipes at Ms. Love is hypocritical in addition to being disgusting.

I don't suggest anyone follow Mr. Cobain's example. He wouldn't either.

I also suggest no one be as shallow and callous as you are being.

I think it's more selfish for people to make a life by having a child.
Nobody asks to be born and they should have the right to end their meaningless existence if they so wish.

While I myself have had this dreadful thought creep into my brain, I remind myself of all the things I, and those I care deeply about, would lose by it. As stated by Andrew "The Maple Bar" Maple, "Suicide is never an option, but ah, the joys of *homicide!"

*He was speaking with reference to Counter-Strike.

I value life too much

I think the words Cowardice and selfish are words used in ignorance.

If you arent worried about taking a life, even if it is your own, fear does not play much of an issue, and as far as selfish, from my experiances most people that I know who have commited suicide felt the world would be better off without them. Perhaps the act may be selfish in our eyes but that is not the intention of the victim/initiator.

In most cases suicide is a lapse caused by disease or desperation. COuld I see suicide ever being an option in my life, certainly, desperation is a powerful influence on all of our lives. What if faced with a terminal degenerative disease like aids, or terminal cancer. Do I agree with it, no but in all honestly those shoes are on someone elses feet not mine, I would think if the shoes were on my feet I might sing a different song and seek a quicker end.

Pretty short range of options you have there "coward and selfish" or "hero."

How about tragic?

They are not mine. People (for some reason) considered him some sort of hero, or that his death was tragic. He is not a hero. His death was tragic, yes, in that it was stupid.

I definitely remember Mr. Cobain's tendency to say "hey, everybody, be like me." And those billboards saying "Kill yourself, Kurt did" were over the line. :rolleyes: .

And that has what to do with my points? I *never* said he told people to kill themselves. My point (since you obviously didn't grasp it) was that some people might take away from him that suicide was okay, or even heroic. And that is plain wrong.

Just because you were a jerk when Mr. Cobain was alive, doesn't make pissing on this grave any more acceptable..

Just because you're being narrow minded in the fact that I don't consider him to be a special, individual snowflake doesn't help your case, either. I disliked someone. Big deal. :rolleyes:

Making fun of dead people that had mental problems at the expense of their family is still selfish and cowardly..

I'm not making fun of him. I'm calling him what he was: a coward. If you knew someway to bring him back to life, I'd say it to his face, to. Not being their for you wife and child is cowardly. Period.

Spend a few days at a psych ward. Learn a little. Develop understanding and sensitivity.

Spend a few days with your newborn child. Learn a little. Develop an understanding and sensitivity for those that suicide leaves behind.

Thank you for illustrating your complete ignorance of depression and mental illness.

And thank you for illustrating your complete intolerance for a different point of view.

Severe depression and other mental illness is not determined simply by whether you have money or problems in life.

Now, I didn't say that, now did I?

Rich people with lots of good things in their life can get depression -- just like they can get the flu, or cancer, or break a leg. It is an illness, not just poor decision making.

Guess what, meds don't always help.

Maybe not. Yet not every depressed person kills themselves. Or even a majority.

I never said that suicide was a good choice or even a rational choice by Mr. Cobain. I doubt either of us knows why he committed suicide. I do know he had problems with drug addiction and mental illness.

Nor did I say you said that. But I'm still resolute that suicide is a coward's way out.

He was not a hero for committing suicide. He was a human being with problems. Show a little damn compassion!!

Good. We agree on something.
Everyone has problems.
I have a lot of compassion for his daughter & Courtney Love. He was his own murderer.

And, saying you are all concerned about his family, and then making fun of him and taking swipes at Ms. Love is hypocritical in addition to being disgusting.

Again, I'm not making fun of him. (I'm posting my thoughts here, IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE THREAD. It was even a voting option!)
Where did I make a swipe at Ms Love??

I don't suggest anyone follow Mr. Cobain's example. He wouldn't either.

One hopes, but if you read the article I posted, or read any of the articles I read on him while in college, he seemed to not care about anybody.

I also suggest no one be as shallow and callous as you are being.

I'm certainly not being shallow, I'm voicing my opinion.
As for callous, you can call it that if you want, but I disagree with you.

Well, music is dead now, so it balances out :p

Music is dead? :confused:
If you mean his, I still catch it on the radio sometimes.

It's the most cowardly act one can ever commit.

Music is dead? :confused:
If you mean his, I still catch it on the radio sometimes.

Oh, I mean the modern scene. There's not a lot of mainstream stuff left worth bothering with. But I digress... :p

Oh, I mean the modern scene. There's not a lot of mainstream stuff left worth bothering with. But I digress... :p

Ah! Well, I agree with that. Though it is getting better of late. Velvet Revolver is pretty good, for example. I like a couple of Franz Ferdinand & Andre 3000 tunes...

yes, I've thought about it before when I was depressed, I can't see it now, but if I ever slip back into that state I might.

I've had depression before that I couldnt imagine being any worse. I've never contemplated suicide. I would change my name and run away somewhere before I killed myslef.
Which makes me wonder how much worse depression and despair could be for someone to kill themselves. I dont know if its cowardly or not. Cowardly doesnt sound right to me. Maybe running away is more cowardly. I hope I'll never know for sure.
I do wonder how many suicidal people could be helped if they had someone to talk to. If they had a friend that listened and gave them validity-agreed with them that there were problems instead of dismissing them and maybe giving support and advice -or just facing the problems with them. Some people DO need medical treatment and therapy. Many just need another person to recognise them.
All of us may have someone near to us that has true suicidal thoughts. Listen to them and dont dismiss them.

Having been there, I have to say yes. However, I can't say that I would at the moment, as I am at a much healthier point in my life. It is conceivable that I could possibly be at that point again in the future, but I don't see it as being very likely.
I do, however, wonder if all of the people who view suicide as selfish have ever been there (obviously I don't wonder whether or not they've killed themselves).

Having been there, I have to say yes. However, I can't say that I would at the moment, as I am at a much healthier point in my life. It is conceivable that I could possibly be at that point again in the future, but I don't see it as being very likely.
I do, however, wonder if all of the people who view suicide as selfish have ever been there (obviously I don't wonder whether or not they've killed themselves).

Its good to hear you made it past that point. I you never have a next time, but if you do, I hope you can get the help and support you need to get through it again.

Maybe not. Yet not every depressed person kills themselves. Or even a majority.
(snip)
Nor did I say you said that. But I'm still resolute that suicide is a coward's way out.
(snip)

I'm certainly not being shallow, I'm voicing my opinion.
As for callous, you can call it that if you want, but I disagree with you.

Suicide is one of the risks associated with certain types of mental illness. Just like kidney failure is a risk with diabetes. In these cases it has nothing to do with moral failings, courage or the amount you love your family.
Not everyone with diabetes develops kidney disease. The people who do are not selfish or cowardly.

Suicide is one of the risks associated with certain types of mental illness. Just like kidney failure is a risk with diabetes. In these cases it has nothing to do with moral failings, courage or the amount you love your family.
Not everyone with diabetes develops kidney disease. The people who do are not selfish or cowardly.

I agree it's a risk.

They're not dead by their own hand, either.

I agree it's a risk.

They're not dead by their own hand, either.I'm trying not to go off on a rant, but I'm not sure what part of "mental illness" you don't understand.
People with mental illnesses don't think properly. If your brain is not working right, then the decisions it makes are likely to be faulty. This is not cowardice. This is poor decision making done by an improperly working organ.

Blaming someone for this makes as much sense as blaming a diabetic for having a lazy pancreas.

I have thought about suicide many times. There are good reasons why I did not commit suicide. One is my family and friends: I would NEVER want to hurt them like that...and I know they would be super pissed and super upset...so no way will I do that. Second, life isn't static...life changes...so if it is bad now, it will change to something else sooner or later...the hard part is dealing with the bad until then. Third, I have had people close to me commit suicide, and I remember vividly how horrible I felt about it...that it was my fault, that I could have done something..this adds to my first reason, being that I can empathize with my friends and family if I were to do that to them. I understand why people would want to die, and I don't hold it against them, even though I wish they would hang around...mostly because there are people to talk to, even if it isnt' a vast social structure of support...point here is that suicide is unfortunate, but it can be helpful in some cases (ie-euthinasia for those with terminal illnesses or intolerable pain)
well that's it for this depressed young lady :p

Been there tried it. I failed (well, duh! I'm posting this) but soon after found I had friends that did actually care.

However, I believe there are people out there who could have genuine reasons for suicide.

Weather it is due to a "metal illness or irregularity" or to selfish drug induced visions of self-martyrdom, I still view it as giving in to weakness especially in the case of a terminal illness.

That having been said, I see nothing wrong with ending someones pain.
The Idea that if your pet is suffering, you can put it down, but its inhuman to put grandma down when she's in a semi-vegitative state after having a chemo induced stroke and the Doctor say she will be in pain untill death.

First of all, I have no problem with anyone else committing suicide. It's their life, it's their right. I, however, doubt I will ever attempt/commit suicide myself.

Now, I am a teenager who grew up in a divorce situation. I've had pets and family members die, friends move away, a tendency towards awkwardness, and been sexually harassed by a boy in my own school who was never punished because he knew the principal personally. I've been clinically depressed and diagnosed with ADD. Depression and other psychological depressions run in my family. My grandmother has attempted suicide multiple times and my mother has been very close. I can find myself feeling self-destructive and suicidal over only minor injuries-that's all it takes to set me off.

The point is that I am at a VERY HIGH risk of suicide, or at least attempted suicide. Why have I never attempted it? Part of it is that I am a wimp-too scared to go through with it, but mostly because I am too responsible. I feel like my family, friends, pets, etc. need me. I could never do that to them.

Its good to hear you made it past that point. I you never have a next time, but if you do, I hope you can get the help and support you need to get through it again.
Why thank you, what a nice thing to say.

I would never comit suicide.

If i got into a situation where i might consider it i would simply move to another location, never take my life.

I've considered it like most people. It's not outside of the realm of possibilities for me to do it sometime down the road, but probably not very likely.

Could you foresee yourself commiting suicide?

Thought about it but not shure if I could ever bring myself to go thru with it

I could not ever commit suicide, it's just impossible, and incomprehensible to me that people would consider suicide. I have been very depressed at times in my life, and sometimes I still am often, but still, I just cannot consider suicide at all. It makes no sense to me.

Actually, I find suicide insulting. People that commit suicide are destroying their own precious lives, when there are so many people that would want to live that have died for other reasons, but still wished to live. And there are people that commit suicide that still have the chance to live, and they throw it away. I could never consider euthanasia really for the same reasons, as I think that every second of life is precious, especially if there is the possibility that all that follows death is oblivion, though I hope not.

I cannot ever condone any suicide for this reason, apart from some rare circumstances, for example if their suicide would save many more lives, though I doubt that this is likely to happen often at all. Whenever I hear of suicide I feel anger, disgust, contempt, and sorrow. I really, really cannot understand suicide.

I could not ever commit suicide, it's just impossible, and incomprehensible to me that people would consider suicide. I have been very depressed at times in my life, and sometimes I still am often, but still, I just cannot consider suicide at all. It makes no sense to me.

Actually, I find suicide insulting. People that commit suicide are destroying their own precious lives, when there are so many people that would want to live that have died for other reasons, but still wished to live. And there are people that commit suicide that still have the chance to live, and they throw it away. I could never consider euthanasia really for the same reasons, as I think that every second of life is precious, especially if there is the possibility that all that follows death is oblivion, though I hope not.

I cannot ever condone any suicide for this reason, apart from some rare circumstances, for example if their suicide would save many more lives, though I doubt that this is likely to happen often at all. Whenever I hear of suicide I feel anger, disgust, contempt, and sorrow. I really, really cannot understand suicide.
Do these beliefs have anything to do with your personal religion, perchance?

I'm trying not to go off on a rant, but I'm not sure what part of "mental illness" you don't understand.
People with mental illnesses don't think properly. If your brain is not working right, then the decisions it makes are likely to be faulty. This is not cowardice. This is poor decision making done by an improperly working organ.

Blaming someone for this makes as much sense as blaming a diabetic for having a lazy pancreas.

Okay, let me say it... again: mental illness is not cowardice. I've never said it, and I never will.

KILLING YOURSELF IS COWARDICE, and I refuse to believe that everyone whom has EVER killed themselves are mentally ill.
Many people kill themselves for other reasons including (but not limited to) love, money, expedience and physical pain. I remember reading about one guy in the (New York) Daily News that killed himself because he couldn't deal with the idea that he was gay.
...so unless you're willing to consider homosexuality as a mental defect, get off your high horse. :rolleyes:

Praising someone for not taking responsibility for their life makes as little sense as praising a chronic spender for going deeper into hoc. :p

I voted other. I just saw a documentary on Salvador Allende the other day, and he machine gunned himself rather than allow himself to be captured and killed by the despicable military junta that had been threatening him. He found more honour in that and quite frankly, so would I.

I'm trying not to go off on a rant, but I'm not sure what part of "mental illness" you don't understand.
People with mental illnesses don't think properly. If your brain is not working right, then the decisions it makes are likely to be faulty. This is not cowardice. This is poor decision making done by an improperly working organ.

Blaming someone for this makes as much sense as blaming a diabetic for having a lazy pancreas.

Thank you! I've tried before in the past to explain exactly that and have never succeeded in doing it so clearly.

People don't seem to realise that you don't think rationally or logically;that's exactly what a mental illness is-a fault in your thinking. You generalise hugely, block out positive thoughts, see things in black and white, cannot get rid of irrational thoughts, get paranoid, judge yourself and others extremly harshly etc etc It's brought about by chemicals in the brain and life experiences, neither of which are the persons fault.

People don't seem to understand that the majority of the time the suicidal person thinks people would be better off without them and suicide can be a result of feeling like you've failed others or messed up their lives in someway.

People also don't seem to understand just what depression is like to deal with. People don't seem to realise that it isn't just a bad mood.

If you imagine the worst sadness you’ve ever felt, the worst guilt you’ve ever felt, the worst anger you’ve ever felt, the worst hate you’ve ever felt, the worst loneliness you’ve ever felt, the worst emptiness you’ve ever felt, the worst anger you've ever felt, the worst confusion you've ever felt, the worst despiar you've ever felt, the worst insecurity you've ever felt, the worst anxiety you've ever felt, the worst emotional pain you’ve ever felt, the worst tiredness and utter lack of energy you’ve ever felt… If you imagine what it feels like when you’ve failed at something. If you think about what it feels like when you’ve given up on something. If you think about what it feels like with tears welling in your eyes. If you imagine what it feels like to deal with all those emotions at their worst extreme, all together, every day, every minute, every morning when you wake up, every night when you fall asleep, every day week, in week out. If you can even begin to imagine what that feels like and for every tiny thing that goes wrong to make all those feeling multiply as you grow to hate yourself and your life more and more with your future looking bleaker each second that passes.. If you can imagine what it feels like to believe that your whole life is going to be like that forever, that you're never going to overcome it, never going to be happy again, never succeed, never be loved, never ever get any enjoyment out of anything, never smile or laugh again. Maybe if you can imagine that then you might just see why people commit suicide and be able to show some compassion and help people suffering rather than bitching about something you know nothing about.

Obviously suicide is a terrible thing. It causes pain to the survivors and is a permenant solution to a temporary problem. It is rarely, if at all, a good choice. Things can improve so much if you stick things out and should be avoided at all costs. But to judge and criticise a person based on the immense suffering they go through and the fact they find all that painful enough to end their life is sickening.

As you may have guessed, I've had depression and been suicidal. But I got past that and fought it. While I can still get depressed and probably always will be oversensitive and overemotional I've learnt how to deal with it and have come out of it much stronger and much happier. I doubt I will ever commit suicide because I've been at the lowest I ever could be and fighting that and overcoming it has given me hope and strength now that I know what I'm capable of.

Okay, let me say it... again: mental illness is not cowardice. I've never said it, and I never will.

KILLING YOURSELF IS COWARDICE, and I refuse to believe that everyone whom has EVER killed themselves are mentally ill.
Many people kill themselves for other reasons including (but not limited to) love, money, expedience and physical pain. I remember reading about one guy in the (New York) Daily News that killed himself because he couldn't deal with the idea that he was gay.
...so unless you're willing to consider homosexuality as a mental defect, get off your high horse. :rolleyes:

Praising someone for not taking responsibility for their life makes as little sense as praising a chronic spender for going deeper into hoc. :pDo you know Cobain wasn't mentally ill?

I'm calling him what he was: a coward.






I'm sure the thousands of people that mourned his passing and the many that still acclaim him more than make up for my calling him a coward.

Doesn't really matter, now does it? The man was rich beyond avarice, and had the makings of a very, very good future career and life.
*He could get meds. He could get help. Instead, he sucked on a shotgun, leaving his wife (not the most stable character, either) and child behind.

Many, many people have problems in this world and *don't* kill themselves. While I believe he had the RIGHT to take his own life, I think he's a coward for doing it (as is anyone who commits suicide).

If I had ebola, I would . Really, I don't think there are too many worse s than one that involves your skin sloughing off and ting out your intestinal lining, or vomiting it up only to die from a stroke as a result of skin cells collecting in your brain.

i wouldnt even do it then because some ebola victims especially towards the end of an ebola outbreak actually recover

i was raised catholic...therefore suicide is not an option.

Do you know Cobain wasn't mentally ill?
He was a junkie. Does heroin make suicide okay?

yes, yes I could

If I went blind I'd kill myself

If I had cancer I'd kill myself, If I became paraplegic I'd kill myself

I would also commit suicide if that meant saving sum1 I love

Do you know Cobain wasn't mentally ill?

The same way you know he was.

The same way you know he was.

Um. We read.

We don't call someone a coward and selfish without knowing a little about him.

Kurt Cobain had a long history of mental illness, including Bipolar Disorder (Manic-Depression).

He had been in a mental hospital shortly before his suicide.

Here are some sources a basic Google search revealed (if you had only bothered):
Even in His Youth (http://www.the-bright-side.org/site/thebrightside/content.php?type=1&section_id=620&id=664)
Nirvana rock band star Kurt Cobain commits suicide on April 5, 1994. (http://www.historylink.org/essays/output.cfm?file_id=3271)
Nirvana - Biography (http://music.yahoo.com/ar-259699-bio--Nirvana)
Miswired Minds (http://www.bipolarsurvivor.com/miswired.html)

No one here (and no one I know) has called Kurt Cobain a hero for killing himself. I think it was a grave tragedy. That his illness took him away from his wife and child makes it worse. That some people villify him for subcoming to mentally illness also makes it worse.

(And your revisionist history of the press coverage about Cobain is telling. Medical journals and others have reflected on the nasty nature of criticism such as yours that was leveled at the victim of an illness. See, e.g., That stupid club: Press response to Kurt Cobain's suicide (http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/308/6941/1447) )

Mental illness is not a character flaw. It is an illness.

Depression is not simply being sad. Or melancholy.

An imbalance in chemical in your brain can cause you to commit suicide. It is not rational. It is a symptom of a disorder.

Berating someone for a symptom of an illness is ignorant and despicable.

And, no, I don't have a child. I have taken care of newborns.

BUT THAT IS NOT RELEVANT TO YOUR COMPLETE IGNORANCE REGARDING MENTAL ILLNESS!

Advising against suicide is one thing. You've gone well beyond that.

Suicide under the condition of death camp imprisonment is an act of honor. He who is not wiped out by the enemy in suck painful times is the victor. I'm not sure if anyone in the Holocaust had attempted that.

I would also commit suicide if that meant saving sum1 I love

Or save your own ass if you're in a death camp.

From a view of the Japanese society, I say it is very efficient, automatic trash disposal. Those who can't handle life rather kill themselves than live in dishonor. Now if every loser does that, how efficient would society become? Death before dishonor. If you live as a loser, please act 'heroic' and do society a favor.

For example, if some poofter fairy kills himself (rather than to seek the option of enlightenment and rehabilitation), that's one less sexual deviant to ruin your country's national image.

Now, in all honesty, could you foresee yourself committing suicide? Excluding mental disorders, suicide generally is spurred by periods of great personal hardship. Could you ever see yourself putting a bullet through your head or taking a blade to your wrists or downing a glass of some poisonous product with the full intent of taking your own life? Yes, I know the act of your own suicide may depend on various issues, but go with me here.....discuss....

i would in one of two conditions, i had completed the goals in my life and was nolonger worth anything, or the government of a good country(not something like u.s. or england, most countries wouldn't count as a good country and i don't think there is any in existance at this moment, perhaps cuba or north korea, but i don't know enough about them to say or not) required me to do so.

i would in one of two conditions, i had completed the goals in my life and was nolonger worth anything, or the government of a good country(not something like u.s. or england, most countries wouldn't count as a good country and i don't think there is any in existance at this moment, perhaps cuba or north korea, but i don't know enough about them to say or not) required me to do so.

NK and Cuba ain't good countries. North Korea is practically hell with sunlight, you get 300g per day of food products if you're lucky. As for Cuba, that's practically an economy revolving around supplying cigars to the West and women whoring to tourists.

From a view of the Japanese society, I say it is very efficient, automatic trash disposal. Those who can't handle life rather kill themselves than live in dishonor. Now if every loser does that, how efficient would society become? Death before dishonor.

For example, if some poofter fairy kills himself (rather than to seek the option of enlightenment and rehabilitation), that's one less sexual deviant to ruin your country's national image.Perhaps you might look into the high incidence of homosexuality in samurai culture. :eek:

He was a junkie. Does heroin make suicide okay?

I am never in support of the foolish causes of rockers and I am staunchly against drugs. I suppose it costs the tax payer more to have him rehabilitated.

I, for one, have no problem with it. It's your own life... It's yours to forfeit.

However, if you have no real reason to do it, a lot of people are going to be deeply saddened. Some of them might even commit suicide because of it.

Um. We read.

We don't call someone a coward and selfish without knowing a little about him.

I know far more about Kurt than I ever wanted to:
Nevermind was released in the first semester of my freshman year in college. It was EVERYWHERE. So were In Utero junior year and that MTV unplugged special. I saw Nirvana live. I read countless interviews, and we had LOTS of discussions in the dorm when he killed himself senior year. For WEEKS.

Kurt Cobain had a long history of mental illness, including Bipolar Disorder (Manic-Depression).

He had been in a mental hospital shortly before his suicide.

Cute. I'm still waiting for Buzz Aldrin, Sting, Axl Rose, or Margot Kidder to off themselves.
NOT ALL PEOPLE THAT HAVE A MENTAL DISEASE KILL THEMSELVES, NOR DO ALL PEOPLE WHO KILL THEMSELVES HAVE A MENTAL DISEASE.

SHENNANIGANS!! He was NOT in a mental hospital. He was at "Exodus" A REHAB CENTER, and climbed the wall of the place and fled back to Seattle.
And I'm *sure* being addicted to herion didn't play any part in his death, right? :headbang:

Here are some sources a basic Google search revealed (if you had only bothered):
<snip>

That's great. And they pretty much match the BBC link I put up before (albeit in more detail)... And they all give his death an almost "gloss" of being okay. That he wasn't to blame for self murder, it was the stardom. Or the smack. Or the money. Or his disease. Or some odd genetic trait.
Maybe it was all of them. And that's sad, because then maybe, just maybe (call me crazy here)... he shouldn't have become a rock star. He made his choice, then chose NOT to live.

No one here (and no one I know) has called Kurt Cobain a hero for killing himself.

And I posted otherwise, from the BBC.

I think it was a grave tragedy.

I think it's a tragedy that he's in the grave. I think he's a coward for doing it.

That his illness took him away from his wife and child makes it worse. That some people villify him for subcoming to mentally illness also makes it worse.

I agree. And I've said that THIS ENTIRE THREAD.

(And your revisionist history of the press coverage about Cobain is telling.

The BBC is revisionist?!? :rolleyes:
That whole "Kurt was a martyr" theme was THICK in the spring of '94.

(Medical journals and others have reflected on the nasty nature of criticism such as yours that was leveled at the victim of an illness. See, e.g., That stupid club: Press response to Kurt Cobain's suicide (http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/308/6941/1447) )

I *still* haven't leveled criticism at his illness. :p

Mental illness is not a character flaw. It is an illness.

Do you even read my posts? :rolleyes:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8818771&postcount=106
"Okay, let me say it... again: mental illness is not cowardice. I've never said it, and I never will."

Depression is not simply being sad. Or melancholy.

An imbalance in chemical in your brain can cause you to commit suicide. It is not rational. It is a symptom of a disorder.

Berating someone for a symptom of an illness is ignorant and despicable.

For every depressed person that killed themselves, I can name five that didn't. IT IS NOT THE AVERAGE, AND PEOPLE DO NOT KILL THEMSELVES FOR ONLY ONE REASON.

Berating someone for speaking his mind about SUICIDE is ignorant and despicable. Moreover, it's a joke.

And, no, I don't have a child. I have taken care of newborns.

BUT THAT IS NOT RELEVANT TO YOUR COMPLETE IGNORANCE REGARDING MENTAL ILLNESS!

More's the pity. You could learn a lot from them.

I actually find it more amazing that you're blasting me for a position I don't even have. :p

Advising against suicide is one thing. You've gone well beyond that.

I have now? How's that? I keep saying that THE ACT suicide is cowardly, not the person contemplating it (until done). I keep pointing out that I do not equate mental illness to being a coward, nor do I equate it to not being ill.
Yet no one has even SPOKEN TO people that kill themselves for other reasons. Hmm.

i was raised catholic...therefore suicide is not an option.
There is always an option, despite past/present religion.

No, I couldn't see myself commiting suicide.

Perhaps you might look into the high incidence of homosexuality in samurai culture. :eek:

Since I'm not a Nip, I don't go about promoting shaving blade chivalry. Every fighting man has the notion that death comes before dishonor (dishonor being beyond repair, as opposed to learning from one's mistakes).

Homosexuality is primarily a White man's disease. Their (dominant) culture tells the planet that it is OK to pack fudge. Let's not forget that man Asians regard it as a taboo mental disorder. Now if society tells them that it is not condoned, they might find the courage to be normal.

Modern Western culture ranks high on the scale of degradation and immorality. What happened to traditional values? I may not be religious, but that sh*tpool called the West has gone too far.

i was raised catholic...therefore suicide is not an option.

Would be an option you should look into if there's a Protestant Inquisition. LOL! Or you can become a partisan. LOL!

If I was ever considering taking my own life, I'd see to it that I took others with me.

Group suicide or fighting unto death?

Honestly, I cannot foresee myself commiting suicide.

It is a selfish thing to do and some might consider it a sin.

Not that I haven't thought about at all - that wouldn't be true either.

Yet, I enjoy life so much that I wouldn't even consider it as an option, even when all else fails...

There has been a nice thread about this topic here somewhere...?

I wouldn't do it, but I can respect people who do.

Perhaps you aren't realizing the part of yuor arguement some of us have a problem with, Markreich.
You said people who commit suicide are cowards.
I say that people who have a mental illness and commit suicide should not be judged this way anymore than people with diabetes should be judged lazy because they have a malfunctioning pancreas.
Mental illness= malfunctioning mind.
Therefore thinking logically or clearly may not be possible.
Therefore the ability to reach the conclusion "This is temporary and I must not leave my family in a lurch, I should tough it out" may be impaired.
The ability to control impulses may be impaired.

True, not everyone who is bipolar commits suicide. They don't all reach that point.
Not everyone who has diabetes ends up in renal failure. Does that make them better than the ones that do?

Now, in all honesty, could you foresee yourself committing suicide? Excluding mental disorders, suicide generally is spurred by periods of great personal hardship. Could you ever see yourself putting a bullet through your head or taking a blade to your wrists or downing a glass of some poisonous product with the full intent of taking your own life? Yes, I know the act of your own suicide may depend on various issues, but go with me here.....discuss....

I could foresee it much easier than I could look back upon it. :D
I do not see suicide as a problem.Most people will never do it.
Those that are against it cannot gaurantee life everlasting to those that choose it. ;)
However,I'll just wait for God to commit homocide and waste me. :eek:

Markreich[I keep saying that THE ACT suicide is cowardly, not the person contemplating it (until done). I keep pointing out that I do not equate mental illness to being a coward, nor do I equate it to not being ill. ]

Obviously you have never had the courage to try.Suicide can be an act of love as well as selfish.It can be courageous or cowardly.It seems that you however are able to reduce all decisions down to being right or wrong according to your personal opinions.Pleased to have met you GOD!Now I know you exist. :rolleyes:

Depending on the circumstance, I think if it came down to it and I felt the only way out of dire life was suicide, I could do it. I don't look down on those who do it either, in most cases, as it takes an incredibly amount of courage.

I'm going out of order here.

I have now? How's that? I keep saying that THE ACT suicide is cowardly, not the person contemplating it (until done). I keep pointing out that I do not equate mental illness to being a coward, nor do I equate it to not being ill.
Yet no one has even SPOKEN TO people that kill themselves for other reasons. Hmm.

Let us see:
1. Kurt Cobain had severe mental illness
2. You called him a selfish coward. Not the act of sucide selfish and cowardly, but him.
3. About 60% of suicides have a mood disorder. Mental illness is a leading cause of suicide. Some estimates are that 90% of all suicides are by people with one or more psychiatric disorder.
4. You called everyone who commits suicide a coward.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8813618&postcount=4

I voted for option #1, though I wish this was a checkbox poll, as it's also absurdly selfish.

Case in point: Kurt Cobain. Idiot pulls a Hemmingway and leaves his wife and child. Selfish coward.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8817333&postcount=66 (emphasis added)

*snip*Everyone suffers in this life, on some level. I have my own cross to bear, as I'm sure you do, too.

It's my opinion that all suicides are cowards, and Cobain, Hemmingway, and Sylvia Plath especially are, as they were artistically gifted *and* famous: they had a DUTY to society to do better. Especially when one has a spouse and child(ren).

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8816255&postcount=54 (emphasis added)

Many, many people have problems in this world and *don't* kill themselves. While I believe he had the RIGHT to take his own life, I think he's a coward for doing it (as is anyone who commits suicide).


As you didn't really read the other things I posted, I won't bother with a lot of the scientific research.

But here is some information from the National Institute of Mental Health:

Is suicide related to impulsiveness?
Impulsiveness is the tendency to act without thinking through a plan or its consequences. It is a symptom of a number of mental disorders, and therefore, it has been linked to suicidal behavior usually through its association with mental disorders and/or substance abuse. The mental disorders with impulsiveness most linked to suicide include borderline personality disorder among young females, conduct disorder among young males and antisocial behavior in adult males, and alcohol and substance abuse among young and middle-aged males. Impulsiveness appears to have a lesser role in older adult suicides. Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder that has impulsiveness as a characteristic is not a strong risk factor for suicide by itself. Impulsiveness has been linked with aggressive and violent behaviors including homicide and suicide. However, impulsiveness without aggression or violence present has also been found to contribute to risk for suicide.

...

What biological factors increase risk for suicide?
Researchers believe that both depression and suicidal behavior can be linked to decreased serotonin in the brain. Low levels of a serotonin metabolite, 5-HIAA, have been detected in cerebral spinal fluid in persons who have attempted suicide, as well as by postmortem studies examining certain brain regions of suicide victims. One of the goals of understanding the biology of suicidal behavior is to improve treatments. Scientists have learned that serotonin receptors in the brain increase their activity in persons with major depression and suicidality, which explains why medications that desensitize or down-regulate these receptors (such as the serotonin reuptake inhibitors, or SSRIs) have been found effective in treating depression. Currently, studies are underway to examine to what extent medications like SSRIs can reduce suicidal behavior.

Can the risk for suicide be inherited?
There is growing evidence that familial and genetic factors contribute to the risk for suicidal behavior. Major psychiatric illnesses, including bipolar disorder, major depression, schizophrenia, alcoholism and substance abuse, and certain personality disorders, which run in families, increase the risk for suicidal behavior. This does not mean that suicidal behavior is inevitable for individuals with this family history; it simply means that such persons may be more vulnerable and should take steps to reduce their risk, such as getting evaluation and treatment at the first sign of mental illness.

Does depression increase the risk for suicide?
Although the majority of people who have depression do not die by suicide, having major depression does increase suicide risk compared to people without depression. The risk of death by suicide may, in part, be related to the severity of the depression. New data on depression that has followed people over long periods of time suggests that about 2 percent of those people ever treated for depression in an outpatient setting will die by suicide. Among those ever treated for depression in an inpatient hospital setting, the rate of death by suicide is twice as high (4 percent). Those treated for depression as inpatients following suicide ideation or suicide attempts are about three times as likely to die by suicide (6 percent) as those who were only treated as outpatients. There are also dramatic gender differences in lifetime risk of suicide in depression. Whereas about 7 percent of men with a lifetime history of depression will die by suicide, only 1 percent of women with a lifetime history of depression will die by suicide.

Another way about thinking of suicide risk and depression is to examine the lives of people who have died by suicide and see what proportion of them were depressed. From that perspective, it is estimated that about 60 percent of people who commit suicide have had a mood disorder (e.g., major depression, bipolar disorder, dysthymia). Younger persons who kill themselves often have a substance abuse disorder in addition to being depressed.

Does alcohol and other drug abuse increase the risk for suicide?
A number of recent national surveys have helped shed light on the relationship between alcohol and other drug use and suicidal behavior. A review of minimum-age drinking laws and suicides among youths age 18 to 20 found that lower minimum-age drinking laws was associated with higher youth suicide rates. In a large study following adults who drink alcohol, suicide ideation was reported among persons with depression. In another survey, persons who reported that they had made a suicide attempt during their lifetime were more likely to have had a depressive disorder, and many also had an alcohol and/or substance abuse disorder. In a study of all nontraffic injury deaths associated with alcohol intoxication, over 20 percent were suicides.

In studies that examine risk factors among people who have completed suicide, substance use and abuse occurs more frequently among youth and adults, compared to older persons. For particular groups at risk, such as American Indians and Alaskan Natives, depression and alcohol use and abuse are the most common risk factors for completed suicide. Alcohol and substance abuse problems contribute to suicidal behavior in several ways. Persons who are dependent on substances often have a number of other risk factors for suicide. In addition to being depressed, they are also likely to have social and financial problems. Substance use and abuse can be common among persons prone to be impulsive, and among persons who engage in many types of high risk behaviors that result in self-harm. Fortunately, there are a number of effective prevention efforts that reduce risk for substance abuse in youth, and there are effective treatments for alcohol and substance use problems. Researchers are currently testing treatments specifically for persons with substance abuse problems who are also suicidal, or have attempted suicide in the past.

Kurt Cobain had ADHD and was bipolar. He also had a family history of suicide and was a heroin addict.

Does that make him a hero? No.
Does that "excuse" his suicide? No.
Does it explain it? Hell, yes.
Does it make the situation a bit too complicated for mudslinging? I should think so.

Get off your soapbox and quit ignoring the leading causes of suicide.

And, most of the people on this thread have discussed other causes of suicide. Only a handful of us have pointed out that mental illness is a factor.


I know far more about Kurt than I ever wanted to:
Nevermind was released in the first semester of my freshman year in college. It was EVERYWHERE. So were In Utero junior year and that MTV unplugged special. I saw Nirvana live. I read countless interviews, and we had LOTS of discussions in the dorm when he killed himself senior year. For WEEKS.

And yet you did not know he was mentally ill -- or deliberately lied about it.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8819423&postcount=114

As someone that lived in the Northwest most of my life and lived in Seattle off and on, I'm not impressed. Mr. Cobain (we were not on a first name basis) was only a couple of years older than I am. I was pursuing graduate studies when Nevermind came out. I saw Nirvana live both before and after they became famous.

But I don't just rely on my memory.


Cute. I'm still waiting for Buzz Aldrin, Sting, Axl Rose, or Margot Kidder to off themselves.
NOT ALL PEOPLE THAT HAVE A MENTAL DISEASE KILL THEMSELVES, NOR DO ALL PEOPLE WHO KILL THEMSELVES HAVE A MENTAL DISEASE.

True. No one said otherwise.

Some people have more severe cases of mental illness than others. Just as some people have more severe cases of other illnesses and injuries.

And some people's mental illnesses are more treatable than others.

Some sources (http://www.stopasuicide.org/suicide.html) say that 90% of people that commit suicide have one or more psychiatric disorders. See also here (http://www.namiindiana.org/)andhere (http://www.ontario.cmha.ca/content/about_mental_illness/about_mental_illness.asp?cID=3954) Others say 60% have mood disorders.

We did not make up the connection.

SHENNANIGANS!! He was NOT in a mental hospital. He was at "Exodus" A REHAB CENTER, and climbed the wall of the place and fled back to Seattle.
And I'm *sure* being addicted to herion didn't play any part in his death, right? *snip*

My error. (See that was not so hard.)

He had been in mental hospitals before. And Exodus does provide psychiatric treatment. But, I was wrong on this one point.

Gee, do you think addictions are comorbid with mental illness?



That's great. And they pretty much match the BBC link I put up before (albeit in more detail)... And they all give his death an almost "gloss" of being okay. That he wasn't to blame for self murder, it was the stardom. Or the smack. Or the money. Or his disease. Or some odd genetic trait.
Maybe it was all of them. And that's sad, because then maybe, just maybe (call me crazy here)... he shouldn't have become a rock star. He made his choice, then chose NOT to live.

You did not read the links did you?

If you did, then your characterization is deliberately false and misleading. Shame.

And your BBC article did not state that Kurt Cobain suffered from any mental illnesses. Some of the comments did, but the article did not.

And I posted otherwise, from the BBC.

Bullshit.

Or to quote: "SHENNANIGANS!!"

That article did not say Kurt Cobain was a hero for killing himself.

It stated he was a rock hero who killed himself.

Notice the difference?

And you don't disagree with the second statement. Isn't that he was a rock hero who killed himself part of your whole problem with him?


I think it's a tragedy that he's in the grave. I think he's a coward for doing it.

I agree. And I've said that THIS ENTIRE THREAD.

SHENANIGANS!!! Pray tell, when did you say that people villifying Kurt Cobain for subcoming to mental illness worse? You haven't. You've been the one villifying him.

In the posts quoted above and, for example:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8816319&postcount=62

"He wasn't a man. He was a boy that didn't grow up and take responsibility for his own life."

The BBC is revisionist?!? :rolleyes:
That whole "Kurt was a martyr" theme was THICK in the spring of '94.

Your "article" about the press coverage was NOT from the BBC.

It was a fluff article in a COLLEGE NEWSPAPER by someone who is relying on her memories (from when she was a young teen).

My sources cited specific examples of media coverage that was the opposite of your revisionism.

And, again, there is a difference between mourning someone's passing and celebrating the good things they did in life and making their suicide seem like a good idea.

I *still* haven't leveled criticism at his illness. :p

I did not say you did.

I said that you had nastily criticized a victim of illness.

That is accurate. If anything, it is understated.





Do you even read my posts? :rolleyes:
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8818771&postcount=106
"Okay, let me say it... again: mental illness is not cowardice. I've never said it, and I never will."

Nice sophistry.

Read what you posted earlier.

You said every person that commits suicide is a selfish coward.

The vast majority of people that commit suicide are mentally ill and mental illness is the primary cause of suicide.

If you say "everyone who dies from cancer is a selfish coward," you are not technically saying cancer is cowardice -- but it is a distinction without a difference.


For every depressed person that killed themselves, I can name five that didn't. IT IS NOT THE AVERAGE, AND PEOPLE DO NOT KILL THEMSELVES FOR ONLY ONE REASON.

See above.

Not everyone has the same mental illnesses nor the same degree of mental illness. And mental illness is the primary cause of suicide.

Shouting does not make you right.

Berating someone for speaking his mind about SUICIDE is ignorant and despicable. Moreover, it's a joke.

You are welcome to your opinion. And I am free to criticize it.

Discouraging people from committing suicide is one thing. Berating the mentally ill is another.

And hurling insults at everyone that has ever committed suicide is ignorant and despicable. It is not a joke.

Have you no shame?


More's the pity. You could learn a lot from them.

Did you ever consider the possibility that I might wish I had children but there may be reasons I don't have children of my own?

That -- among other personal reasons I'm not going to discuss -- might be that I suffer from mental illness?

Or are you just going for Mr. Insenstive Asshole of the Year?

Again, have you no shame whatsoever?

Markreich[I keep saying that THE ACT suicide is cowardly, not the person contemplating it (until done). I keep pointing out that I do not equate mental illness to being a coward, nor do I equate it to not being ill. ]

Obviously you have never had the courage to try.Suicide can be an act of love as well as selfish.It can be courageous or cowardly.It seems that you however are able to reduce all decisions down to being right or wrong according to your personal opinions.Pleased to have met you GOD! Now I know you exist. :rolleyes:

Obviously, as I am still here.

Yes, I am so blessed. I am sorry you can't, but I suggest you work on it. It makes like much easier. :cool:

PS: Everyone should be able to determine right and wrong. That's a central tenet of society. Else we'd never be able to agree on laws.

It's quite easy for you, who have never had any problems in your whole lifes, to call someone else selfish and cowardly. :(
And it's not very helpful.

It's quite easy for you, who have never had any problems in your whole lifes, to call someone else selfish and cowardly. :(
And it's not very helpful.

I've never had any problems?!? :rolleyes:

Thank you, O Oracle. Thank you also for telling me I don't have a right to my own opinion on suicide. :p

PS- Cat Tribe: It will take me awhile to reply to the post (we are getting long winded). Please be patient.

I'm going out of order here.

Let us see:
1. Kurt Cobain had severe mental illness
2. You called him a selfish coward. Not the act of sucide selfish and cowardly, but him.
3. About 60% of suicides have a mood disorder. Mental illness is a leading cause of suicide. Some estimates are that 90% of all suicides are by people with one or more psychiatric disorder.
4. You called everyone who commits suicide a coward.

<snip>

1. Yep.
2. Yep, as I call ANYBODY after they’ve committed suicide.
3. That’s nice, but how many times can I say it? He CHOSE to kill himself.
4. Yep. Isn’t it nice that I’m consistent?

As you didn't really read the other things I posted, I won't bother with a lot of the scientific research.

But here is some information from the National Institute of Mental Health:

Man, you really are condescending, you know that? Of course I read what you post. :p

Kurt Cobain had ADHD and was bipolar. He also had a family history of suicide and was a heroin addict.

Does that make him a hero? No.
Does that "excuse" his suicide? No.

Thank you.

Does it explain it? Hell, yes.

It most certainly does NOT! Ever hear of “free will”?

I know: I have a mental disorder!
It makes me stick a shotgun up every lawyer's ass I see and pull the trigger. :rolleyes:
Oh, I'm sorry. Does that not fit into the "victim culture" that is so alive these days where no one is accountable for their own actions? :headbang:

People fight cancer. People fight all kinds of things. I refuse to believe a guy who BREAKS OUT OF DRUG REHAB dies because of his longtime sickness. That's like saying that the guy in the wheelchair died from being paralyzed from the waist down, instead of from the Chevy Blazer that hit him. :rolleyes:

Does it make the situation a bit too complicated for mudslinging? I should think so.

http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=coward
Main Entry: cow•ard
Pronunciation: 'kau(-&)rd
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French coart, from coe tail, from Latin cauda
: one who shows disgraceful fear or timidity

...which he did, in ending his life by his own hand rather than face it. I'm sorry it's a label that offends you, but it's the truth.

Get off your soapbox and quit ignoring the leading causes of suicide.

I have *not*, any where in this thread, spoken badly of the mentally ill nor that some of them kill themselves. Go ahead, re-read my posts.
All I've BEEN saying is that killing oneself is cowardice.

And, most of the people on this thread have discussed other causes of suicide. Only a handful of us have pointed out that mental illness is a factor.

Yes, mental illness MAY BE a factor.
So it that he wanted to off himself and Courtney after they brought their child home from the hospital. Most new dads bring home food or diapers, or whatever. What does he bring? Smack and a handgun. :rolleyes:

And yet you did not know he was mentally ill -- or deliberately lied about it.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8819423&postcount=114

ROTFLMAO!!
Dude, I never lied about it, nor did I ever say I didn't know. I'm SEPERATING suicide from illness. You're a lawyer, right? Ever heard of a rhetorical question? Read it with Bitchkitten’s prior post if it doesn’t make sense, or else stop taking me out of context.

And I'm still waiting for you to quote where I disparaged Courtney Love.

As someone that lived in the Northwest most of my life and lived in Seattle off and on, I'm not impressed. Mr. Cobain (we were not on a first name basis) was only a couple of years older than I am. I was pursuing graduate studies when Nevermind came out. I saw Nirvana live both before and after they became famous.

But I don't just rely on my memory.

I'm sorry you're not impressed, but that's okay, the feeling is quite mutual.


Cute. I'm still waiting for Buzz Aldrin, Sting, Axl Rose, or Margot Kidder to off themselves.
NOT ALL PEOPLE THAT HAVE A MENTAL DISEASE KILL THEMSELVES, NOR DO ALL PEOPLE WHO KILL THEMSELVES HAVE A MENTAL DISEASE.


True. No one said otherwise.

You have been implying that it was okay for Kurt to kill himself because he had a mental disease. I keep saying it's not, that suicide is cowardly, and that not all people who have a mental disease kill themselves and that not all people that kill themselves have a mental disease. QED. Yet, I keep getting bombarded by folks saying I need to take back/reconsider my position, because of “poor Kurt”.
Nope. Not going to happen.
Do I feel sorry he killed himself? Sure. Do I feel sorry for his wife, his kid, the fact that he had a mental illness? Sure.
So I feel sorry that he was a heroin addict that drank (neither is good for his condition) and pulled a Hemmingway sucking on a shotgun? Not in the least.

Some people have more severe cases of mental illness than others. Just as some people have more severe cases of other illnesses and injuries.

And some people's mental illnesses are more treatable than others.

Some sources (http://www.stopasuicide.org/suicide.html) say that 90% of people that commit suicide have one or more psychiatric disorders. See also here (http://www.namiindiana.org/)andhere (http://www.ontario.cmha.ca/content/about_mental_illness/about_mental_illness.asp?cID=3954) Others say 60% have mood disorders.

We did not make up the connection.

And I don't disagree with any of this. My point is that Kurt did NOT have to die. He CHOSE to. Remember that free will thing?


SHENNANIGANS!! He was NOT in a mental hospital. He was at "Exodus" A REHAB CENTER, and climbed the wall of the place and fled back to Seattle.
And I'm *sure* being addicted to herion didn't play any part in his death, right? *snip*

My error. (See that was not so hard.)

Graci.

He had been in mental hospitals before. And Exodus does provide psychiatric treatment. But, I was wrong on this one point.

Gee, do you think addictions are co morbid with mental illness?

Do I think that they both can exist at the same time?
Well, obviously yes.
I also believe that he CHOSE to be a rock star (stress isn't good for someone in his condition, right?), he CHOSE to take heroin & other drugs, just as he CHOSE to escape from Exodus and he CHOSE to keep buying firearms.

Did all of these events combine against him? Maybe. But he CHOSE to do them all, and he CHOSE to kill himself. Ergo, coward after he pulled the trigger. QED.

You did not read the links did you?

If you did, then your characterization is deliberately false and misleading. Shame.

*sigh* Of course I did. I'm sorry if you can't stomach the idea that someone out there draws different conclusions than you do.

And your BBC article did not state that Kurt Cobain suffered from any mental illnesses. Some of the comments did, but the article did not.

The BBC article was to show that many consider him a hero, which he isn't.

Bullshit.

Or to quote: "SHENNANIGANS!!"

That article did not say Kurt Cobain was a hero for killing himself.

It stated he was a rock hero who killed himself.

Notice the difference?

Notice that it pointed out that MANY consider him to be a poor, tormented hero who took arms against a sea of troubles and by opposing, ended himself?

And you don't disagree with the second statement. Isn't that he was a rock hero who killed himself part of your whole problem with him?

I have problems with Hemmingway because he was a writer who killed himself, too. Suicide, quite simply, is never the answer.

SHENANIGANS!!! Pray tell, when did you say that people vilifying Kurt Cobain for subcoming to mental illness worse? You haven't. You've been the one vilifying him.

In the posts quoted above and, for example:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8816319&postcount=62

"He wasn't a man. He was a boy that didn't grow up and take responsibility for his own life."

Hemmingway wasn’t a man, either. Both led lives that were fairly hedonistic, and both killed themselves alone because they couldn’t deal with being themselves. A man doesn’t kill himself, especially with a wife & kid to care for. I’m 32 (for the record). If you’re in disagreement with this paragraph, then I seriously fear for the Republic.

Your "article" about the press coverage was NOT from the BBC.

It was a fluff article in a COLLEGE NEWSPAPER by someone who is relying on her memories (from when she was a young teen).

Which accurately portrayed what I was trying to do when replying to that post: illustrate my recollections of that time.

My sources cited specific examples of media coverage that was the opposite of your revisionism.

Again: I’m not here to debate mental illness, nor do I belittle it. I’m talking solely about suicide. And you have yet to gain any traction into making me believe that suicide is noble.

And, again, there is a difference between mourning someone's passing and celebrating the good things they did in life and making their suicide seem like a good idea.

Agreed. And I have no real problems with the way Kurt *chose* to lead his life. Suicide is a bad idea, and a cowardly one at that.

I did not say you did.

I said that you had nastily criticized a victim of illness.

That is accurate. If anything, it is understated.

Er?
Originally Posted by The Cat-Tribe
(Medical journals and others have reflected on the nasty nature of criticism such as yours that was leveled at the victim of an illness. See, e.g., That stupid club: Press response to Kurt Cobain's suicide )

I still stand by that I haven't leveled criticism at his illness, or any sick people at all. I'm saying that suicide is cowardly. And that's ALL.

Nice sophistry.

Read what you posted earlier.

I know what I posted earlier. And I stand by it... and it’s easy, since I haven’t wavered in my ONE POINT: that suicide is a cowardly act. (Everything else is window dressing.)

You said every person that commits suicide is a selfish coward.
Yep. And that’s because I believe that to be an undeniable truth.

The vast majority of people that commit suicide are mentally ill and mental illness is the primary cause of suicide.

60% isn't vast (per your number above).

If you say "everyone who dies from cancer is a selfish coward," you are not technically saying cancer is cowardice -- but it is a distinction without a difference.

The difference is that dying from something (cancer, for example), it isn't dying by your own hand, violently. My friend certainly didn't ask for breast cancer at 29.

See above.

Not everyone has the same mental illnesses nor the same degree of mental illness. And mental illness is the primary cause of suicide.

Shouting does not make you right.

Of course, and I still agree it is a cause, or (citing the 60%) a COMMON cause of suicide.
However, since suicides usually take the exact reasons to the grave (suicide notes not exactly being trustworthy, or always comprehensible), I’ll not agree with “primary”.

Of course shouting does not make me right. But it doesn't diminish the point, either.


You are welcome to your opinion. And I am free to criticize it.

Absolutely.

Discouraging people from committing suicide is one thing. Berating the mentally ill is another.

And hurling insults at everyone that has ever committed suicide is ignorant and despicable. It is not a joke.

Have you no shame?

Shame? Yes. Hurling insults/jokes? Nope. I'm using a DEFINED WORD as it's intended to be used. I'm sorry if that offends your sensibilities, but last time I checked, the 1st Amendment was still alive and kicking.

Did you ever consider the possibility that I might wish I had children but there may be reasons I don't have children of my own?

That -- among other personal reasons I'm not going to discuss -- might be that I suffer from mental illness?

I merely replied FROM MY PERSPECTIVE a retort to your own post, stating that I need to be more compassionate. My passions are just fine, and I posted what I felt would show my perspective. When a man makes his marriage vows, “for both as we long shall live” does NOT read “until I decide I want to leave this life”. Children need parents, which goes without saying.

I'm sorry if that hit a raw nerve, that was not the intention.

Whatever your personal cross(es?) to bear in this life are your business alone, and I certainly did not know of them while writing the post.

Or are you just going for Mr. Insenstive Asshole of the Year?
Again, have you no shame whatsoever?

Nah. I just like to annoy coddling whiners like you.
(See? Insults don't help the debate any, now do they?)

I voted for option #1, though I wish this was a checkbox poll, as it's also absurdly selfish.

Case in point: Kurt Cobain. Idiot pulls a Hemmingway and leaves his wife and child. Selfish coward.


There is WAY TOO MUCH evidence that proves Kurt was MURDERED!

www.justiceforkurt.com

There is WAY TOO MUCH evidence that proves Kurt was MURDERED!

www.justiceforkurt.com

I'm not sure if it's true or not, but if he was murdered (by someone else), he'd not be a coward.

I watched a video titled "Kurt and Courtney" and this big guy nicknamed "El Duce" admitted he was offered 50,000 dollars by Courtney to "whack" Kurt. He even passed a lie detector test.

Also, there was so much heroin found in his body they say that alone was lethal enough to kill him. So if he was already dead from the drug overdose...how can he possible shoot himself in the head!? And how come his box of drugs and needles was packed away nice and neat? Could a guy with that much heroin in his body do that? NO!

Also, the first and last lines of his "suicide" note are in a different handwritting. And it matched Courtney's handwritting perfectly! the note was actually a note to his fans telling them of his wish to leave music and be with his family. Courtney added the lines to make it seem like a suicide.

Kurt Was Murdered!

I really don't think it's a good idea. Seriously.
I know people who've attempted/ reguarly hurt themselves, had arguments with a guy who saw it as 'cheating the game of life' and thereby winning whereas I saw it as cheating yourself out of any chance of making the most of what shards of life we get.
Basically I think it hurts too many people, and, as an atheist, a waste. There's no second chance unless you're resuscitated. If it is a game at least you can say 'I tried.' Euthanasia/asking to die is different. I haven't been in that position or know someone who is, and I don't know what I'd personally want, but respect that for some people they have nothing ahead of them but pain and want out.

Kurt Was Murdered!

Assuming all that evidence actually exists, the question I have to ask is, why hasn't all this been brought to the authorities to compell them to open an investigation into a possible homicide?

That aside, the only time I could conceive of where I would voluntarily end my own life would be in the case of terminal illness, where a slow and lingering death would be assured.

Three words:

Blaze of Glory.

If my life was already forfeit (shortly to die anyway from overwhelming odds) the objective would be to take as many enemy combatants with me as possible (as opposed to civillians/women & children, etc.)

Otherwise, No.

*snip*

I am done "discussing" this with you.

I am likely done discussing any issue with you.

I am done "discussing" this with you.

I am likely done discussing any issue with you.

Vale! Cum bonis ambula.

I've never had any problems?!? :rolleyes:

Thank you, O Oracle. Thank you also for telling me I don't have a right to my own opinion on suicide. :p



You'll never understand.
:(

Now, in all honesty, could you foresee yourself committing suicide? Excluding mental disorders, suicide generally is spurred by periods of great personal hardship. Could you ever see yourself putting a bullet through your head or taking a blade to your wrists or downing a glass of some poisonous product with the full intent of taking your own life? Yes, I know the act of your own suicide may depend on various issues, but go with me here.....discuss....

The only way I would put a bullet through my head is if my death could guarantee the continued life of a loved one.

there have been times i have considered it, as i'm sure most people have, but i could never bring myself to for a number of reasons

1) people look up to me
2) i have too many friends that love me
and
3) i'm scared crapless of pain

everytime the thought enters my head i look at a list i made and i remind myself of the good things. One of the main things is I have things to look forward to, such as prom, and graduating high school.

You'll never understand.
:(

Nor you my problems. Either way, life isn't about who has it worse.

Assuming all that evidence actually exists, the question I have to ask is, why hasn't all this been brought to the authorities to compell them to open an investigation into a possible homicide?

That aside, the only time I could conceive of where I would voluntarily end my own life would be in the case of terminal illness, where a slow and lingering death would be assured.


All that evidence does exist. The Seattle authorities refuse to open the case though. It has been petioned many times. And every time with more and more evidence prooving a murder. The police work was rushed because they saw a gun and drugs and a bullet wound in the head. The figured "suicide" and went for donuts and coffee! It was rushed, case closed. They never did a FULL investigation. That too has been proven. Just look at all the articles on justiceforkurt.com and/or watch the VHS titled "Kurt and Courtney". I have done my research and heard both sides of the story. And I fully believe Kurt was MURDERED! With Kurt dead Courtney could gain all the rights to the house and his bank account and everything. But if they got divorced (which they were planning to do) she could only get half...if that. Thats enough to motivate her to plan is killing right there! and we all KNOW that Courtney is not all there in the head to begin with!

All that evidence does exist. The Seattle authorities refuse to open the case though. It has been petioned many times. And every time with more and more evidence prooving a murder. The police work was rushed because they saw a gun and drugs and a bullet wound in the head. The figured "suicide" and went for donuts and coffee! It was rushed, case closed. They never did a FULL investigation. That too has been proven. Just look at all the articles on justiceforkurt.com and/or watch the VHS titled "Kurt and Courtney". I have done my research and heard both sides of the story. And I fully believe Kurt was MURDERED! With Kurt dead Courtney could gain all the rights to the house and his bank account and everything. But if they got divorced (which they were planning to do) she could only get half...if that. Thats enough to motivate her to plan is killing right there! and we all KNOW that Courtney is not all there in the head to begin with!
There's also a book called "Who Killed Kurt Cobain?" that details a lot of this stuff. Incidentally, Courtney made Kurt sign a prenup, so she'd have gotten much less than half.
All in all, while I like the conspiracy theory, I'm content to believe that it was a suicide.

Obviously, as I am still here.

Yes, I am so blessed. I am sorry you can't, but I suggest you work on it. It makes like much easier. :cool:

PS: Everyone should be able to determine right and wrong. That's a central tenet of society. Else we'd never be able to agree on laws.

Like has always been easy for me.Life has been enjoyable as well.

If everyone were able to determine right and wrong and the determinations agreed,there would be no need for law.If you have a bible try reading Romans chapter 6 through 10.

Maybe you are there,maybe you aren't.Do you have proof of existence? :D

He was a junkie. Does heroin make suicide okay?

From having worked in a chemist for 3 years, I'd like to point out that I spent a lot of time talking to people coming off of heroin who were getting their methadone from us, and just because they're a drug addict, doesn't mean they are a bad person. They're human beings just like the rest of us, with feelings (which are bound to be a little out of their control) and their own thoughts and problems (besides the drugs). So don't make it out like Heroin control every little aspect of their life, because from what I see, inside a lot of addicts is a lovely person, and I made some good friendships with some of these people. (Before you draw your own conclusions on that, I have never tried any drugs.)

Besides, if I remember correctly, (guys correct me if I'm wrong) Kurt Cobain also had stomach ulcers, and injected heroin to stop the pain, of course, over the years, he would need more and more for the same effect, who's to say he didn't killed himself to end the pain?

Like has always been easy for me.Life has been enjoyable as well.

If everyone were able to determine right and wrong and the determinations agreed,there would be no need for law.If you have a bible try reading Romans chapter 6 through 10.

Maybe you are there, maybe you aren't.Do you have proof of existence? :D

Good to hear.

Absolutely. However, my point was more along the lines that some things are obviously right/good (raising children, aiding people, etc.) while some are obviously wrong/bad (murder, depredation, etc.).

Romans 6:14 & 8:13 are good examples, thanks. You may also find 14:5 interesting.

Proof as an individual? You'll have to take my typing as that.
Proof as a religion? There is no Church of Markreich (that I'm aware of, anyway, if there is, stop that silliness NOW!!)... but if I *were* a diety, I'd take up the arguement that proof denies faith, and without faith I'd be nothing. ;)

Now, in all honesty, could you foresee yourself committing suicide? Excluding mental disorders, suicide generally is spurred by periods of great personal hardship. Could you ever see yourself putting a bullet through your head or taking a blade to your wrists or downing a glass of some poisonous product with the full intent of taking your own life? Yes, I know the act of your own suicide may depend on various issues, but go with me here.....discuss....

No. I don't think I ever would, I don't think I would be able to kill myself. Besides, if something is going bad in your life, how can you be 100% certain that things won't get better? I see suicide as too final.

No. I don't think I ever would, I don't think I would be able to kill myself. Besides, if something is going bad in your life, how can you be 100% certain that things won't get better. I see suicide as too final.
Your name doesn't fit, in that case.
"Suicidal Librarians"
:D

Your name doesn't fit, in that case.
"Suicidal Librarians"
:D

I know, I thought of that while I was posting. :D

There's also a book called "Who Killed Kurt Cobain?" that details a lot of this stuff. Incidentally, Courtney made Kurt sign a prenup, so she'd have gotten much less than half.
All in all, while I like the conspiracy theory, I'm content to believe that it was a suicide.

Ironically, the fact that it is so believable as a simple suicide case is what gives the conspiracy theory of a perfect murder extra weight, hey?

1. Yep.
2. Yep, as I call ANYBODY after they’ve committed suicide.
3. That’s nice, but how many times can I say it? He CHOSE to kill himself.
4. Yep. Isn’t it nice that I’m consistent?



Man, you really are condescending, you know that? Of course I read what you post. :p



Thank you.



It most certainly does NOT! Ever hear of “free will”?

(snip)
I have *not*, any where in this thread, spoken badly of the mentally ill nor that some of them kill themselves. Go ahead, re-read my posts.
All I've BEEN saying is that killing oneself is cowardice.



Yes, mental illness MAY BE a factor.
(snip)Agreed. And I have no real problems with the way Kurt *chose* to lead his life. Suicide is a bad idea, and a cowardly one at that.



Er?
Originally Posted by The Cat-Tribe
(Medical journals and others have reflected on the nasty nature of criticism such as yours that was leveled at the victim of an illness. See, e.g., That stupid club: Press response to Kurt Cobain's suicide )

I still stand by that I haven't leveled criticism at his illness, or any sick people at all. I'm saying that suicide is cowardly. And that's ALL.



I know what I posted earlier. And I stand by it... and it’s easy, since I haven’t wavered in my ONE POINT: that suicide is a cowardly act. (Everything else is window dressing.)



What's all this crap?
People keep telling you the same thing and you just don't get it.
Sometimes the brain dosn't work right. If you can't think straight, choice doesn't really enter into it.
Faulty brain says "this is a good idea"
Person acts on faulty brains data.
Hero-no.
Coward-NO.
AAARGH!!

Nor you my problems. Either way, life isn't about who has it worse.

But I'm not saying, that a boxer who is knocked down, then gets up again for the next round, is knocked down 1000000 times again and then finally drops his towel is selfish and a coward.
You are saying so. (You can deny it, but you did.)
No, I don't understand your problems. What I do understand is, that for some reason, some people are extremely arrogant.
The only reason I can think of is, they never learned that life can be shit.
Looking down on others is only possible from above.

What's all this crap?
People keep telling you the same thing and you just don't get it.
Sometimes the brain dosn't work right. If you can't think straight, choice doesn't really enter into it.
Faulty brain says "this is a good idea"
Person acts on faulty brains data.
Hero-no.
Coward-NO.
AAARGH!!

I've made my point of view abundently clear, and don't really feel like going though all this again. I consider all suicides to be cowards, and I do not believe that people with mental illness MUST kill themselves. QED.

But I'm not saying, that a boxer who is knocked down, then gets up again for the next round, is knocked down 1000000 times again and then finally drops his towel is selfish and a coward.
You are saying so. (You can deny it, but you did.)

The boxer is a fighter, right? If he is in a fight and keeps getting knocked down, he keeps TRYING, else he is a failure. The boxer, however, can always keep getting back into the ring. Once the boxer hangs up his gloves for good (ie: starts eating McD's and Taco Bell, et al) and he did so out of fear, he too is a coward.
Just like if a solider shoots himself in the foot instead of fighting to help his comrades.
Just like if a mother abandons her child.
Just like if a person kills themselves.

No, I don't understand your problems. What I do understand is, that for some reason, some people are extremely arrogant.

And some people don't tolerate other points of view. Sucks, doesn't it?

The only reason I can think of is, they never learned that life can be shit. Looking down on others is only possible from above.

And having been through something bad, fought their way though it, then looking back at folks that throw in the towel is really just hubris, eh? :rolleyes:

Look, I don't mean to belittle or cajole anyone. I'm talking about SUICIDE, not mental illness. And I'm tired of saying that.

I do not believe that people with mental illness MUST kill themselves.

And no-one else does. What we are saying is that a mental illness means you cannot think straight so judging a person on a faulty decision made under a condition they had little or no control over is unfair.

And no-one else does. What we are saying is that a mental illness means you cannot think straight so judging a person on a faulty decision made under a condition they had little or no control over is unfair.

*Sometimes* mental illness means you cannot think straight. It's a stretch to say that every suicide was caused by mental illness, or even that all folks with mental illness weren't thinking straight when they killed themselves.

Look, if someone *DID* kill themselves, and it was due to them not being able to think straight (just like if they were high on smack or drunk out of their gourd), then yes, that's tragic and sad.

I don't believe that that is a common occurrance, and that most of the time it's someone who is depressed about something taking the easy way out. What you describe is the marginal example, not the rule.

Yes, it is a possibility; not commiting suicide is another.Equally paired. What to choose ? :headbang:

This is a tricky issue, because those who commit suicide are so depressed or so affected by something that they see no way out. You could equally ask 'Do you foresee yourself ever being that depressed?', and it would be just as difficult to answer.

If I ever reached the point where I had nothing to live for, I would probably do it.

Suicide? I've attempted it a few times myself. closest i got was diving headfirst off the second floor of my highschool off a crosswalk (or something like it). Got cold feet a few moments later and backed away.
It's not attempting unless you actually jump, you know, because if you don't you haven't preformed any act that threatens your life. I mean, I've done that quite a lot.

I have avoidancy disorder, so I get depressed quite often. Personality disorders make suicide very tempting because they are incurable. Right now I have no friends in the world and that won't ever change, so suicide would be quite a rational choice. Still, I'm not quite tired of it yet, but that might change in a few years, who knows. I hope it doesn't.

This is a tricky issue, because those who commit suicide are so depressed or so affected by something that they see no way out. You could equally ask 'Do you foresee yourself ever being that depressed?', and it would be just as difficult to answer.

If I ever reached the point where I had nothing to live for, I would probably do it.

My friend, may that day never come to you. You *always* have something to live for. :)

I feel actually a bit suicidical [SP]. Me and my girlfriend broke up recently and its driving me mad :(

I feel actually a bit suicidical [SP]. Me and my girlfriend broke up recently and its driving me mad :(

Damn. That sucks :(

If you really feel suicidal, the best thing is to at least talk to a professional, though.

Hmm, it really sucks. I'm trying to get my mind of her by doing some nice things. NS is one of them *thanks god NS exists*

Hmm, it really sucks. I'm trying to get my mind of her by doing some nice things. NS is one of them *thanks god NS exists*

Go out to a pub or something with friends. Have a good night out. It'll get your mind off things :)

I would if I got Alzheimer's Disease

You'd forget to.... I kniw that's cruel

Personally, I think people who accuse those who want to commit suicide of being selfish are the truly selfish ones. After all, it's their life. If they want to throw it away, that's their business.

What good is the right to life unless we also have the right to end that life? Without it, it's not a right; it's a requirement.

I can't see myself doing it. I think it is a desperate act committed by people who see their situation as hopeless. If they were able to get the help, they needed to solve or cope with whatever problem they are having they wouldn't do it. I don't condemn people who do it, I feel sorry for them.

No, but I do see myself dieing in some sort of fight. Just bleeding on the ground slowly fading away. I like that thought.

I have avoidancy disorder, so I get depressed quite often. Personality disorders make suicide very tempting because they are incurable. Right now I have no friends in the world and that won't ever change, so suicide would be quite a rational choice. Still, I'm not quite tired of it yet, but that might change in a few years, who knows. I hope it doesn't.What exactly is an avoidancy disorder? Does it affect people in ways similar to agoraphobia?

I wouldn't say cowardly, but it is inherently selfish. It leaves others to feel the pain.

I don't believe that most suicidal people actually want to die. I think they'd be happy if the things that lead them to feel that way went away.

Not very eloquent I know. I have some personal experience to draw on.

Oh, and i hope no-one is confusing attempted suicides with attempted making-yourself-kind-of-ill. There are some people that take ODs just to get help. If you seriously wanted to die, it would be quite easy really. But that goes back to the feeling I have that most don't really want to die, they just can't see another solution.

Life is a gift, the only thing that can take it away is god

What exactly is an avoidancy disorder? Does it affect people in ways similar to agoraphobia?One of My roommates has Avoidant Personality Disorder. I'm not sure if it's the same thing. It makes him a pain in the butt. He avoids like the plague anything that has the remotest chance of being unpleasant. It causes him to miss out on a lot of stuff because he can't make him take any social or professional risks at all. The amount of anxiety it causes him just about sends him over the edge. Unfortunately Personality Disorders aren't really considered curable. But you can learn how to manage them so they cause your life less disruption.

I must admit it is a selfish act. If I didn't care for my family, my boyfriend and his kid, then yes I might have done it by now. But then I remember the pain I went thru when my dad died in hospital and I could never put anyone around me thru that much pain on purpose.

I wouldn't say cowardly, but it is inherently selfish. It leaves others to feel the pain.

I don't believe that most suicidal people actually want to die. I think they'd be happy if the things that lead them to feel that way went away.

Not very eloquent I know. I have some personal experience to draw on.

Oh, and i hope no-one is confusing attempted suicides with attempted making-yourself-kind-of-ill. There are some people that take ODs just to get help. If you seriously wanted to die, it would be quite easy really. But that goes back to the feeling I have that most don't really want to die, they just can't see another solution.
Hmmmm, your post, and others, seem to be talking for all the people instead about. In my opinion it isn't selfish but a way for them to finally end the anguish and suffering that they undergo. I have tried to commit suicide before and I thought that nothing could cure me. I'm also bipolar like someone else who posted here and it's a bitch to live with.

Nope.

I believe it's cowardly and selfish, as your depriving thoes around you of your company, and no matter how bad or depressed you feel, there is always going to be someone there who will miss you.

I would never even think of killing myself, hell I just posted about how I want to be immortal!

I disagree, I think it is your loved ones who are selfish if you have to be there to give them company. I think it can be selfish though if you have children.

yeah. I wasn't even going to get into him having buckets of dough, people wanting to meet him everywhere he went, and women swoon whenever he'd come around. The man had it all, and decided it was too hard. Never mind how he set a lousy example for teens and kids.

He probably realized that no matter how many fans, how much money or how many women he had nothing with truly make you happy.

I have no problem with people choosing to end their own life, however, if you're going to do it you need to be of sound mind. Additionally I think it's only courtious to provide your loved ones with a significant amount of advanced warning.

And maybe throw a party too, no sense making your death a somber event.

Wow, started off as a poll, turned into a mutual rant about K. Cobain, moved into a "you disagree with me therefore you are not reading my stuff" section and finally seems to have settled down into a reasonable discussion again ;)

As to the question at the top of the poll... No; although I would like for it to be legal to include in my will the wish for me to be knocked off at the point when I am no longer in a position to live but am merely not dying.

In a wider view, considering suicide isn't actually a bad thing, it's better to think about the consequences of something before you get rushed into it; and regardless of religion, personal views or legalistics, it is an option.

The majority of teenage 'suicides' have a tendancy to be rather half hearted attempts, more a "look at me - isn't my life hopeless" than anything. They're rather a dubious method of calling attention to yourself, but unfortunately an increasingly popular one due to the increased stress levels caused by modern education. [based upon discussions with my old psychology professor and a couple of psychiatric nurses, and personal observations of three friends who thankfully are still alive despite attempts to the contrary.]

No rational adult should really consider suicide as an escape route, anyone who feels that ceasing to exist is better than struggling on for another day hasn't spent enough time thinking about exactly what non-existance is; and if there is something to follow life then probably has something to say about your decision. [i][this is a personal opinion so feel free to rant at me]

There are very few mental illnesses that actually force you to commit suicide, there are a number that make you irrational enough to go through with it but really, if you no longer have the capacity to reason it out, are you the one killing yourself? [please remember to put your name and todays date at the top of each sheet of paper...]

If, rationally and logically your continued residence of this mortal coil is a danger to those you love and that situation cannot be rectified through any other means; or by your own death you can acheive something that helps keep other people alive - then suicide is actually rather a brave thing to do. I believe that giving up your own life to save others is usually called heroism rather than suicide though. [am I actually adding editors comments to my own post? eek]

I like the party idea though, if you've got to go you might as well do it with a bit of flair.

He probably realized that no matter how many fans, how much money or how many women he had nothing with truly make you happy.

You mean that there are people out there who don't know that life's only meaning is what you give it? :eek:

No. I don't think I could. For two reasons:

1. I'm chicken.
2. I think life's better off lived.

One of My roommates has Avoidant Personality Disorder. I'm not sure if it's the same thing. It makes him a pain in the butt. He avoids like the plague anything that has the remotest chance of being unpleasant. It causes him to miss out on a lot of stuff because he can't make him take any social or professional risks at all. The amount of anxiety it causes him just about sends him over the edge. Unfortunately Personality Disorders aren't really considered curable. But you can learn how to manage them so they cause your life less disruption.Oh, I see. And there isn't any medication for him to decrease the anxiety?

You mean that there are people out there who don't know that life's only meaning is what you give it? :eek:Doesn't that seem a little circular to you?

Doesn't that seem a little circular to you?

Life is nothing if not circular. .ralucric ton fi gnihton si efiL

Seriously. If you don't decide what meaning your own life is, no one else can do it for you.

Life Seriously. If you don't decide what meaning your own life is, no one else can do it for you.That's true, but don't you think there is a meaning, and that it's possible to be wrong about what that meaning is?

That's true, but don't you think there is a meaning, and that it's possible to be wrong about what that meaning is?

The meaning is whatever you make it to be, so you can only have been wrong if you change the meaning.

If the meaning of your life is to go out and drink alot, that's all you have. If you then give up the bottle and go become President, then you've changed your meaning of life. ;)

I don't believe life has any one meaning that can be applied to everyone.

I *do* believe that people do have a drive to do certain things (procreate, survive, make like more comfortable for themselves, etc), but these are drives, and not meanings.

Life is a gift, the only thing that can take it away is god

What about the guy who shoots the woman six times in an attempt to steal her car?

What about the guy who shoots the woman six times in an attempt to steal her car?

He is clearly acting on behalf of god because the woman cheated on the guy and thus needs to be set to hell fast. YAY Jesus!!!!

I can't see myself committing suicide. I voted for the cowardly one, though I think it's selfish too.

I was just confirmed a few weeks ago, and in one of the classes before confirmation, suicide was discussed. I'm not going to get into the whole "it's a sin because God decides when you die" and "do you go to heaven?" thing. But this kid who lives in my friend's neighborhood, committed suicide using the car in garage method. The pastor at my school is also the police chaplain in my town. When my friend told him about that incident, the pastor said he remembered it and that the kid committed suicide on his mom's birthday when his mom and dad were out celebrating. If that's not selfish, I don't know what is.

Also, do you consider it suicide in battle or something? The perfect example of what I'm trying to say is in the movie "Independence Day" when the guy's missile gets locked and he flies it into the ship.

Yes. Right now, the only people that would be truly hurt are my parents, and I think they quite deserve it. They never behaved like they cared in the first place. I do have myself to live for, and I continue to reason with myself quite well. I'm pretty sure I'll make it through the years.

me 2

*Sometimes* mental illness means you cannot think straight. It's a stretch to say that every suicide was caused by mental illness, or even that all folks with mental illness weren't thinking straight when they killed themselves.

Look, if someone *DID* kill themselves, and it was due to them not being able to think straight (just like if they were high on smack or drunk out of their gourd), then yes, that's tragic and sad.

I don't believe that that is a common occurrance, and that most of the time it's someone who is depressed about something taking the easy way out. What you describe is the marginal example, not the rule.

no its not, i have depression and the syptoms r mostli to do with my thinkin like;

I have been unable to think straight

I have made simple decisions quickly .

your feeling also change

It's quite easy for you, who have never had any problems in your whole lifes, to call someone else selfish and cowardly. :(
And it's not very helpful.

Someone with empathy and insight. whoever you are you deserve a medal

In case I get AIDS and it's terminal, I'll visit a mosque and blow myself up.